WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Thinlómien]

*ahem*

Okay, wagons

- the Lottie-wagon
- the "I'm so concerned Loslote will be lynched, look at this unreasoned crowd against her" wagon
- the sudden Greenie-wagon
- the victorious Fea-wagon

There's something wrong with Lottie...
I didn't look at this wagon through and through, but it seems to me rather simple. A crowd of people living in Finland had been suspecting Lottie (among others or then just mostly her) during the Day and partly agreed with each others points and then they had to go to sleep and vote, around the same time. Most of them (me, Greenie & Legate) chose to vottie (hahaha a typo but let's leave it :D means "vote Lottie", obv.), some (Aganzir) didn't. Conclusions? If you ask me, I don't think the wagon is necessarily evil. After all, I thought we had good points against Lottie even though they turned out to be wrong, and everybody had a bit of their own grounds so no one was following others blindly. But of course, the Lottie wagon doesn't make us innocent either. What can we conclude, then? At least this: please people, don't mislead yourselves by concluding I must be more innocent than Legate or Greenie because of the placement of my vote. I think we would all have voted Lottie, whatever the order of our votes, but I just happened to decide to go to sleep first.

Eee! Lottie is an easy lynch and people are voting her for bad grounds! Oo, we're all gonna die!
So what's wrong here? Lottie might be an easy Day1 lynch (I don't remember her fate in the games I've played with her so I can't verify this but I trust it if you say so), but the grounds for voting her weren't lousy - even though she's now proven innocent. It makes me slightly annoyed how some people seeked to discredit all suspicion against Lottie despite the fact she was possibly the person against whom there was presented the biggest amound of rational points thus far.
Guilty of expressing concern over possible Lottie lynch:
- Izzy (first)
- Greenie (although she voted her herself, quite fishy)
- Nogrod (see more below, did this twice btw)
- Legate (dislikes the smoothness of the emerging Lottie wagon - a question: am I reading a totally different game than you others?! for what I've seen, there was the joke Fea vote which seemed like an obvious to be retracted vote, my and Greenie's votes, Sally's suspicion and Agan's suspicion and vote for someone else than Lottie... ..what? should we start suspecting Sally now? she's the only one whose approach could be called "smooth" or sneaky... anyway Mr L himself voted Lottie.)
- Shasta
- Sally ("I think Lottie's suspicious, but I get sick of Day One lynching her." That is perfectly fine, but later she starts a massive operastion Save Private Lottie, which seems rather fishy - like a wolf who tries to look good.)
- Brinn (amidst general wishy-washy warning against bandwagons)
Guilty of ignoring/discrediting the "proof" against Lottie:
- Nogrod (well might be a bit misleading to place him here but I don't like him calling me and Greenie's votes as "rapid lynching queue" while we had been suspecting Lottie for some time already and just had to go to sleep around the same time, later he said there was too much opportunism involved. From whose part, would you clarify?)
- Boro (called it hogwash for obvious reasons!)
- Zil ("this push against Lottie looks bad" - oh dear, by that point more people had expressed concern over the possible lynch of Lottie than voted or spoken for voting for her :rolleyes:, later flip-flops on which is more evil: Lottie herself or the wagon, ends up voting neither.)
- Lottie (takes it as another Day1 wagon against her innocent self, but we can maybe forgive that... ha.)
- Shasta ("reasoning on the bandwagon isn't superb" - admitted, but what better reasoning was there around at that time? when I went to sleep, it was in the end of page 2 and Day1 ended on page 6 so I missed quite a lot of discussion... and later Shasta calls voting Lottie bandwagoning on Fea's vote, which is at least from my part absolute nonsense because I was 100% sure Fea'd come back and retract)
- Brinn (her selective memory remembers the early nonsense-points against Lottie, but not the later and more serious ones... how convenient, given that every time someone gets more than one vote it's a bandwagon and you have to cry "evil!")
- Nienna (all her reaction to the points against Lottie: "suspicious bandwagon"... great.)
- Sally and Izzy (Not otherwise, but they discredited Legate's vote. I wouldn't think this too bad for I too raised some eyebrows when I read his vote even though I knew he had had points against her earlier. Still, I'm inclined to think he's not evil.)
- Glirdan (says the bandwagon is ridiculous and asks why get rid of Lottie since she's good at spotting wolves... really, most of us are good at that at our best, and should we lynch those who aren't just to ensure they'll never learn?)
Okay, forgive my slightly personal approach here, but I really think the massive discrediting was slightly weird (and I didn't like it because I can admit I was wrong about Lottie but I don't want to admit I had ridiculous grounds for voting her 'cos I didn't), and can't be all honest (or then some of you guys are a flock of chickens). Looking at this has been helpful for me, though, because now I have some suspects: Greenie, Nog, Zil, Brinn, Shasta, Sally. I bet there are at least one or two wolves among those.
PS. it's interesting Nogrod's very concerned about all the suspicion against Lottie still he is suspicious of her himself...

Fea's vote is so weird she has to be bad.
Skip gave the first vote early on. He grounded his suspicion well although I disagree with what he said.
Nogrod followed, suspecting Fea is sending or receiving cobbler hints. I must say that when I first read his posts I thought he was making mountains out of molehills once again, but it was proven he was right in associating Fea with cobblers (even if he did it for the wrong reasons)!
Brinn is the third, her grounds for voting are mostly the fact that she dislikes Fea's vote (more than suspects it).
Boro votes to save Lottie.
Lottie saves to vote herself.
Conclusions? The fact that Fea got lynched was really random. I don't think we can make much out of this.

Oi! Evil Greenie! Must die!
Shasta starts, says "I don't like bandwagons, I don't like lynching Lottie first constantly, I don't see what's so suspicious about her, and I especially don't like votes made apologetically." People criticised this vote came out of nowhere, but I think it actually has better grounds than many later votes, although I personally disagree with some stuff he says. It's not a very suspicious vote, except maybe exactly because it looks so good and "fresh" and maybe wants to abuse the anti-anti-Lottie mood...
Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.


edit: xed with everybody

[Aganzir]

But with your angle, holding on to this option would appear suspicious and for wolves to retract his or her vote early on would divert attention away from them unless all others quickly follow suit.
What do you mean by this?

Sorry, would have posted more
Yeah I know, it wasn't an accusation (of not posting enough, not of wolvery), just a remark that there was nothing I considered important in your posts. And the pleasure is mine. :p

#128: I don't think I'm on the same wavelength with Nog, there are just some differences in the way we think (seems to happen always), but I think he looks quite good for the time being. If he was a wolf, I don't think he would've brought up Fea's behaviour (does the cursed know about her status, could Fea be the cobbler etc).

Mira - she seems very innocent-Mira at the moment
What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.

Brinn - hmmm she seems like she is forcing normalcy... but I can't really tell
That's what I think of her too - always. I try to be careful not to suspect her every time because of it, but she and I aren't on the same wavelength, either... Although hmm I should probably check some old games (just to get some statistics) because there have been times I've decided not to suspect her simply because she doesn't feel right to me and she's turned out to be a wolf.

what exacitically is the deal with all these gushy terms? Babies and sweethearts?
That's the way alliances are made, darling. ;)

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever :p), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.
He also considered Fea but didn't vote for her simply because he didn't think she was a wolf, and then attacked the Lottie-wagoners, saying the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?

Has been rather quiet this time around. --- maybe it is a Wolvish tactic to try and sneak by?
Izzy as I remember her has never been one of the loudmouths, but I don't know if that's changed during my absence.

Hmm reading Glirdan's post (#142) and it seems my comment about the unlikeliness of pinning all the wolves on day 1 can be more or less ignored. Although I still think it's darn unlikely, and it's dangerous to be so convinced so early.

I think Izzy looks good.

I would love to see more substance from sally. Not too fond of her at the moment.

Someone please explain to me how eliminating re-votes will help the Non-wolf team later on
It will not actually help us, but if nobody had their retractions, it wouldn't help the wolves either, and that's what I'm after... However I see I'm not getting much support. Quite a few people have said they want to save their votes because they've been in a situation before where their vote has been the decisive one. Might well be there's a wolf among them, but I have no time to pursue that further now.

Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.
Who has said that? I don't disagree, I just can't for the life in me remember having seen anyone talk about Brinn before your vote.

I like Glirdan for now.

I have to go now (going to see a play with a friend, yay!), will be back some time in the evening.

[skip spence]

G'day folks and gentlehobbits...

Skimmed the thread just now and I'm wondering, why is Lottie now though of as a known innocent? Is that based only on Boro's last moment vote retraction?

[Nerwen]

I'd like to comment on the several people toDay who are expressing surprise or confusion where I just don't think it's warranted.

Nienna at #226 "has stopped having any sort of idea what is going on". (May be just be referring to Sally's Game reference, however).

Sally at #229 wants to know:

what the heck happened at the end of the Day yesterDay? Don't get me wrong, yay dead cobbler, but a dead cobbler is not a dead wolf. Sally demands an....an expla.....explanat....some country..... (Hmmn. Possible hint of wolfish chagrin there?)

Sally, really, what do you mean, "what the heck happened?"

Lommy at #235 is surprised that Fea was the cobbler and had seen no connection between Lottie and Boro.

Agan at #247 agrees with her on both points. Originally Posted by Lommy
First off, I'm quite surprised Fea turned out to be the cobbler.

Me too but I'm happy she was lynched in the end. That's what happens when you think you know better what Fea is doing...
(...)
I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs

Now, firstly, I just can't see why it's so surprising that someone who acted in a typically cobbleresque manner turned out to be, in fact, the cobbler. I know Lommy said she thought Lottie might be the cobbler yesterDay, and it was something that crossed my mind in the early part of the Day– but Fea should have been, it seems to me, a clear runner-up at least.

Secondly– I may of course be developing Nogroditis– but I'm surprised anyone didn't see a possible connection between Boro and Lottie after the end of yesterDay– and having seen it, the idea that they might be the Shirriffs is a logical next step. I mean, it wasn't the only thing that occurred to me– but to say you never noticed, or even more, that you did, but never thought of them being the Shirriffs seems a little disingenuous.

EIDT:X'd since Legate.
EDIT2: word left out.

[Nerwen]

G'day folks and gentlehobbits...

Skimmed the thread just now and I'm wondering, why is Lottie now though of as a known innocent? Is that based only on Boro's last moment vote retraction?

She's not an absolutely known innocent. However, she's claiming to have a specific role (the remaining Shirriff). If she were a wolf she'd risk exposure by the real Shirriff... and to no purpose, that I can see.

Naturally, if there's a counter-claim, we'll have to rethink the situation.

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Lottie - I believe her claim.

Quite innocent
Izzy - as quite often of late, she seems to me the voice of reason and independent-thinking. Some points of hers late yesterDay made me slightly restless, but I think it was simply because we disagreed.
Agan - speaks sense and is sharp, seems genuine. However, you never know of her and I don't like her picking a fight with Lottie the Known Innocent.
Skip - he seems very careful, but I would interpret it as the carefulness of a new player rather than the carefulness of a wolf, at least for now.

Can't tell
Legate - I know I just said I think him innocent, but the posts I cross-posted with looked really fishy, sort of trying to look nice, playact he didn't vote for Lottie yesterDay (and give the most dangerous vote despite his judgement) and now try to be buddybuddy with her. Dislike. Anyway, I need more time to think.
Greenie - I agree her apologetic/pessimistic way of voting was weird, but we must not forget she did suspect Lottie all along. Besides, I'm starting to feel defensive for her since she always gets this kind of suspicion in the beginning, but on the other hand, I'm a bit annoyed that she won't probably be much around toDay either. Grr. Hmm, discarding all mixed sisterly feelings, I can't really judge her yet, that's why she's here.
Wintywinty - as long as he keeps to IC arguments, it's impossible to judge him.
Shasta - I don't know what to make out of him. He seems to think from kind of a quirky point of view, but he isn't necessarily evil.
Morsul - I tend to disagree with him on everything but I'm not sure what it makes him.
Nienna - however much I disagree with him and however much I irrationally suspect her everytime, I must say her actions towards then end of Day1 looked quite innocent. In any case she's a hard nut(ter) to crack. :p

Slightly suspicious
Nogrod - I definitely don't like his actions towas Lottie and her wagon yesterDay, and his vote was weird (meaning uncharacteristic). However, I tend to disagree and get annoyed with him even when he's innocent, and it goes exactly this way, so I don't want to make quick judgements. :D
Mira - I remember I suspected her yesterDay, but I have forgotten the reason. :rolleyes: Should probably check. I know she had RL reasons to be away yesterDay but it doesn't make her any less quiet and creepy.
Brinn - I don't like her careful and slightly hypocritical-seeming statements, but that's how I interpret and suspect her all the time. In any case, her protest-like vote for Fea and discrediting all the points against Lottie make her someone to watch for me.

Suspicious
Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.
Sally - her Operation Save Private Lottie looks bad, as does the throwaway vote and general wishy-washyness.
Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)


edit: xed with everybody again

[skip spence]

But with your angle, holding on to this option would appear suspicious and for wolves to retract his or her vote early on would divert attention away from them unless all others quickly follow suit.
What do you mean by this?
What I mean is that by your reasoning, honest people would want everybody to get rid of their retractable votes, as this is more favourable for the innocent team. And subsequently the players who refuse to throw away their retractable votes would appear suspect for refusing to comply.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that you are making a big deal of this. It may be an honest initiative to remove a possible threat from the wolves. But it may also be a way to make yourself and others look good, to divert suspicion away from you. It is in the innocents best interest to have no retractable votes left in the game, your say, and thus those who keep theirs must be wolves. But must they really? I'm not so sure...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

a question: am I reading a totally different game than you others?! for what I've seen, there was the joke Fea vote which seemed like an obvious to be retracted vote, my and Greenie's votes, Sally's suspicion and Agan's suspicion and vote for someone else than Lottie... ..what? should we start suspecting Sally now? she's the only one whose approach could be called "smooth" or sneaky...
Not sure if I understand what you mean by this... but if you mean what I think you mean, at least for me it was slightly unnerving - influenced by the worries stated by Nogrod - to see the number of Lottie-voters amassing. That's what I'd call "smooth": going on and on, nobody seemed to contest it (at least by that time). Well anyway I think I elaborated on that yesterDay back then.


Now after Lommy's post it made me once again doubt Zil's innocence, returning my somehow bad feeling about him from early yesterDay. For now thinking of it, his action in relation to the Loslote-wagon would seem like a very nice "I-am-a-Wolf, I'll start out of the way but oh look, what those evil people are doing! On the other hand, if you decide all that Lottie is guilty, fine by me, do it, I just want you to lynch somebody else than us Wolves".

G'day folks and gentlehobbits...

Skimmed the thread just now and I'm wondering, why is Lottie now though of as a known innocent? Is that based only on Boro's last moment vote retraction?

Most of all, she revealed herself as Shiriff. Unless there appears another Shiriff claiming otherwise, I trust her. And since nobody did...

Now, firstly, I just can't see why it's so surprising that someone who acted in a typically cobbleresque manner turned out to be, in fact, the cobbler. I know Lommy said she thought Lottie might be the cobbler yesterDay, and it was something that crossed my mind in the early part of the Day– but Fea should have been, it seems to me, a clear runner-up at least.

Secondly– I may of course be developing Nogroditis– but I'm surprised anyone didn't see a possible connection Boro and Lottie after the end of yesterDay– and having seen it, the idea that they might be the Shirriffs is a logical next step. I mean, it wasn't the only thing that occurred to me– but to say you never noticed, or even more, that you did, but never thought of them being the Shirriffs seems a little disingenuous.

Just a note here, as I think there is at least one part of it which I can see an explanation for from first-hand experience: even though I'd assume that people who have read the thread and thought about it would come to the conclusions above, it's not necessary that they have read it or came to the conclusions. For instance myself, after I have voted, I went to sleep - and later at Night only checked the outcome and did not much bother myself about who voted whom up to this morning, thus, not thinking about Boro at all (but yes about Loslote, as it was a thing I have been thinking about: so she's not lynched, but that does not mean she's innocent, but have I been wrong? So what did she say? But hey, what was this "I'm not evil!" shouting from her - and *click*, here came the idea). As for Fea, I have not seen her posting anything Cobbler-ish, unless you count the vote (for which there was other explanation offered by Lommy), by the time I went to sleep, there was like one more post from her saying nothing at all, and once again, when I read the rest of the thread, she was already dead and her role revealed. That's just to say that at least when it comes to us Europeans, I could see this as one possible thing happening that somebody might not have read the after-we-went-to-sleep things early or with much care, so I'd be taking it into account. On the other hand, if somebody claims to have read them and they have not spotted anything, that maybe might be somewhat puzzling. But otherwise, well.

EDIT: x-ed with one Nerwen, Lommy and skip

[Thinlómien]

Can I offer a timezoney explanation for somethings?

A bunch of votes for Loslote emerged quite quick because the people who had suspected her happened to be mostly European and had to go to sleep. There was no competing wagon emerging around the same time for obvious reasons: why would any American (or Nogrod :p) vote when there was still several hours until the deadline which is evening their time?

And to rephrase Legate, there is also nothing weird in anyone who went to sleep when only 1/3 of the discussion had taken place being surprised by the recent outcomes. I read the Day when I woke up, but I did it only quickly, knowing that if I'm still alive the next Day, I have to reread it anyway because I want to talk about it. That way it was easy to miss significant stuff between Boro and Lottie (and btw while I can admit you can see there's something, I wouldn't definitely call it obvious even now).

Also, when I went to sleep I was certain Fea would come back later and post more sense, as she usually does, so I had no reason to believe her a cobbler, especially as I had a believable excuse for her vote in my head. (And mind you, even though she was a cobbler, it doesn't mean I was wrong about her vote. :p)

I also wanted to say something NOT related to timezones, but I forgot it...

[Inziladun]

Suspicious
Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)

I've already explained why I voted the way I did. I've no intention of staying on the defensive all this Day, as I had to yesterDay.

I was actually thinking DL was now, for some reason, so I was rather rushed. Basically, I didn't (and don't) have much against her, but as I said, the other options didn't seem especially bright either.

Of the four, I thought Greenie might seem the worst, but then I remembered Nog saying something about her having a very full RL day. Of the remaining two, I just couldn't choose between them.

There it is. Do with it what you will.

Now after Lommy's post it made me once again doubt Zil's innocence, returning my somehow bad feeling about him from early yesterDay. For now thinking of it, his action in relation to the Loslote-wagon would seem like a very nice "I-am-a-Wolf, I'll start out of the way but oh look, what those evil people are doing! On the other hand, if you decide all that Lottie is guilty, fine by me, do it, I just want you to lynch somebody else than us Wolves".

I do find this interesting. A very nice bit of latching onto what may be seen as an easy lynch choice for toDay, laying some groundwork. I wasn't fine with Lottie's lynch. Apparently you were, though. :rolleyes:

[Morsul the Dark]

I'm Fairly certain I won't be on before DL today so I always suspect Sally however Lotties Post was nicely confirming

++Sally

If I can I MAY have to use my retraction today if I'm back in time.

However Sally is quite smart whether or not I agree with her. I don't think she'd read my sarcasm as anything but, also she says she wanted to try and get me lynched but "no one would go for that" She admits trying to start a Bandwagon.

Have fun I'll Try to be on later.

[Thinlómien]

Zil -

I know you already explained your vote, but it doesn't make it any less weirder.

ps. That was not a very good start on not being defensive toDay. ;) :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I've already explained why I voted the way I did. I've no intention of staying on the defensive all this Day, as I had to yesterDay.
Well, for the sake of being slightly ironic, you wouldn't have to be staying on the defensive if you actually were posting something constructive instead of it. (That's actually my overall weird impression of your performance in this game which I had noted already by the early time of yesterDay and that was the first thing that struck me as weird about you this time.) Anyway...

I do find this interesting. A very nice bit of latching onto what may be seen as an easy lynch choice for toDay, laying some groundwork. I wasn't fine with Lottie's lynch. Apparently you were, though. :rolleyes:
Of course I was and I have no problem with that. What are you trying to say now - "look, evil Legate is accusing me, who is white as snow, and I didn't want to lynch Lottie of whom we all well know that she's innocent, while he wanted to lynch our poor Lottie, of whom we all know that she's innocent"? And as for you being fine with Lottie's lynch, I never said that you were encouraging it, but you weren't discouraging it very strongly either. E.g.
Hmm. Makes sense, I guess. I might go for Mira in lieu of the Lottie-wagon.
(...)
True, and Lottie could well be a wolf. This train just looks evil to me, though.
That does not sound very "decided" to me. Anyway, the point of what I said about you was not the Lottie part, that was more like an addendum, but the main point of the sentence was that in general, you managed to stay "in the middle" with your behavior. Just like a Wolf who would best profit from letting the village to do the dirty work to actually pick people to lynch, as long as it was a non-Wolf. Your behavior in general looked like that to me - generally flip-flopping up to the point of not taking any initiative of your own.

But whatever, whatever. Please don't make more of what I said than what it was. I am not saying "Inzil MUST BE a Wolf", it was only one thought. However, it would be easy to imagine you as a Wolf - therefore you are on my suspicion list from now on (especially after your reaction now - meaning the thing I quote as second in this post).

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy

[Nerwen]

And to rephrase Legate, there is also nothing weird in anyone who went to sleep when only 1/3 of the discussion had taken place being surprised by the recent outcomes. I read the Day when I woke up, but I did it only quickly, knowing that if I'm still alive the next Day, I have to reread it anyway because I want to talk about it. That way it was easy to miss significant stuff between Boro and Lottie (and btw while I can admit you can see there's something, I wouldn't definitely call it obvious even now).

Well, that's fair enough.

Also, when I went to sleep I was certain Fea would come back later and post more sense, as she usually does, so I had no reason to believe her a cobbler, especially as I had a believable excuse for her vote in my head.

.As for Fea, I have not seen her posting anything Cobbler-ish, unless you count the vote (for which there was other explanation offered by Lommy)

She made an unexplained vote, then turned up eleven hours later and still gave no explanation, just mocking banter. (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626686&postcount=47) I'm not saying everyone should have said , "Aha! The cobbler!"– it was Fea, after all– but was her role really that surprising?

Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)

I don't know what to make of Zil's vote. I could see it as either an innocent unable to make up his mind, or a wolf anxious to vote "well", i.e. keep out of a bandwagon on an innocent.

I don't think there's anything in his being jumpy yesterDay* about Nogrod, who was taking a remark totally out of context, and turning a deaf ear to Zil's explanations. Nogrod doesn't come out of that looking very good... however his his last post (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626783&postcount=115) on the subject makes me think the whole thing may have been a language problem.

Where am I going with this? Nowhere, really. I'm just trying to sort out my thoughts on those two.

*ToDay is another matter.

EDIT: x'd since Zil at 260; edited for clarity.

[wilwarin538]

Lottie just lost the game. ;)


Wilwa just lost the game.


*goes to work on Boro's epic death scene*

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

She made an unexplained vote, then turned up eleven hours later and still gave no explanation, just mocking banter. (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626686&postcount=47) I'm not saying everyone should have said , "Aha! The cobbler!"– it was Fea, after all– but was her role really that surprising?

Well at least for me not "surprising", but not foreseen either. That "mocking banter" was just the thing where I expected her to post something substantial later. But anyway not sure if the question makes sense to examine much...

Whatever, I wanted to say: I am now going to see Lommy, so probably not going to be around at least for a number of hours, but I will definitely at least appear before DL and vote, if nothing else.

[wilwarin538]

Boro's death scene has been edited in.

[skip spence]

The wolves know the identity of the cobbler, right?

[Nienna]

Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.


And I'm more than happy to give it. I admittedly voted Greenie based on no real suspicion of my own. I was pretty confident at that point that Lottie was innocent and was willing to vote for mostly anyone to save her. I really didn't want to vote for Fea because she hadn't posted much and her one vote looked like something that an innocent-Fea would do just to shake things up and get some discussion going. That she was the cobbler only helped solidify this mind frame I'm thinking. I also chose Greenie because at the time (and it was like a minute before deadline) that was who it felt like we decided we could get lynched. There was obviously poor communication, though, as you can see from the votes being all over the place (and all cross-posted) that we almost got Lottie lynched anyway.

On other matters:

I'm with Lottie right now in saying that Sally is screaming wolf to me. I thought so too at the end of yesterDay but we decided we didn't have enough votes to get her lynched. She'll be getting my vote today unless something drastic happens.

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.

Nienna at #226 "has stopped having any sort of idea what is going on". (May be just be referring to Sally's Game reference, however).
Yep that is what I was confused about. All better now.

I think Lommy has a point about timezones and I admit that in the beginning of the Day Lottie was looking a little suspicious but I wanted to give her some time to make herself not-suspicious (which she did) but I could understand why some people who had to go to bed early may have voted for her. This is not saying that there can't be an early-to-bed wolf on the bandwagon too just that I could understand some of the votes.

In a bit I'll be leaving for a few hours but then I'll be back.

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.

[skip spence]

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.
But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves? I'm having problem figuring out the role Fea would try to play.

[Thinlómien]

But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves?No.

ps. Nienna looks innocent now, I liked that post.

[Inziladun]

Well, for the sake of being slightly ironic, you wouldn't have to be staying on the defensive if you actually were posting something constructive instead of it. (That's actually my overall weird impression of your performance in this game which I had noted already by the early time of yesterDay and that was the first thing that struck me as weird about you this time.)

Point taken. However, I've been busy RL, and now I'm working with less than 6 hours sleep. But as Lommy said, Nog kept hammering away at one thing that to me should not have been a major issue, and I got caught up in fencing with him over that, to the point that that was all I really had time for yesterDay.

Of course I was and I have no problem with that. What are you trying to say now - "look, evil Legate is accusing me, who is white as snow, and I didn't want to lynch Lottie of whom we all well know that she's innocent, while he wanted to lynch our poor Lottie, of whom we all know that she's innocent"? And as for you being fine with Lottie's lynch, I never said that you were encouraging it, but you weren't discouraging it very strongly either. E.g.

You're twisting things a bit aren't you? When did I say I was 'white as snow'? Your just appeared to me to be jumping wholeheartedly onto what Lommy had said, and it looked opportunistic.
I actually intended to do an analysis of you, but there were too bloody many smilies in your posts for me to feel like hunting down and deleting. ;)
And anyway, my conclusion was that I couldn't really find any evidence of your likely lupinity.

[Nerwen]

So, I have to vote now– I may change it later, but I can't risk missing the DL again.

++Sally

Now, I think that's the third vote on Sallymouse, which I guess makes it officially a bandwagon. However, the fact is, she does currently look to me like the most suspicious person, particularly after I found this little sequence from yesterDay:

#112
Thiiiis vote on Lottie bothers me. Partiiiiiially because it seems like we lynch her first a lot, and partiiiially because the reasoning on the bandwagon isn't superb.

Right now I think Morsul is the most suspicious for his comment about wanting everyone to use up their retractions, but keeping his own.

#113
Agreed. (Wow. We really are all mad here.) I think Lottie's suspicious, but I get sick of Day One lynching her.

And definitely agreed on Morsul. Hypocrites should always be the first to go. *nods sagely, head droops, starts to snore*

#121
Whoops. On first glance this looked like Morsul was advocating getting rid of our retractions. Didn't catch the sarcasm, my bad.

#122
Lol. You're great. I'm not entirely sure he's joking though, or at least that he's being completely innocent in said joke. But again, paranoid.

This looks to me a lot like a wolf preparing to leap on an easy victim (or turn on a packmate, whatever), then hastily going into damage control mode when it doesn't work out.

As I said, I do mean to be back before DL, and will retract if Sally makes a sufficiently convincing case for her innocence, or if someone else starts looking worse.

EDIT: Only second vote.
EDIT2: added remark; also, Lottie already picked this, which I hadn't noticed.

EDIT

[skip spence]

Let's see then... as this is very bewildering to me I will focus on the tangibles. Fea was lynched and turned out to be the cobbler.

We know that Boro was innocent but now he's dead. Lottie claims to be his Shiriff-partner, which seems to clear her, I agree. Boro took a bullet for a friend, and we should salute him for that.

Ok so from the wolves' perspective it did not matter if Fea or Lottie was lynched? They wouldn't care either way, it's all good.

So any wolf yet to vote would probably keep a low profile when it looked like either one of those two would die, you know act wishy-washy, and then come up with some half-decent explanation to vote for any random person.

Glirdy and Nienna seem to fall into that category. They both seem to have voted for someone unlikely to get lynched almost apologetically just to glide along unnoticed. But, heck, I don't know...

I'm not accusing you of anything... yet.

[Morsul the Dark]

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.


Popping in for one post while waiting for my fiance to return.

I voted because I thought it'd be the only time I could. Second... well there is no second.

[Inziladun]

My trust of Lottie is at about 99%, since I really think the legitimate remaining Shirriff would have come forward by now if she was lying.
At least that gives me someone whose words I can take as truth, and she is quite adept at spotting wolves. That said, you aren't the Seer, Lottie, so you may not be right about all your suspects.

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

I've said why I think Sally's a wolf.

Boro and I agreed most fervently that Greenie was a wolf based on her vote, general air of apologeticness, and other behaviors that I'll mention in the analysis post I will make tomorrow (as in tomorrow, not toMorrow).

Glirdy's actions scream wolf (especially his Shasta vote - vote someone who looks not at all suspicious because he voted for your packmate? :rolleyes:).

Agan was a main advocate of my death, but didn't actually vote me and thus stayed out of the spotlight. She mostly seemed to be helping quite a bit but didn't really do much in terms of real contribution.

After what's been said toDay, I think I agree that Sally looks the worst of that quartet.
Of the others, Glirdan and Agan are the ones I would need to look at more closely before I would conclude furriness. I'll try to do that now.

[Brinniel]

Finally, many have mentioned how Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.
Sorry, but I just can't help laughing at this because the reasoning seems obviously fabricated since you're just trying to find an excuse many hours later for voting me. You can't vote for someone at the beginning of the Day, then at the end of the Day reason your vote based on things that have been said throughout the Day. Not to mention, the reason itself is extremely poor. I'm good at the game therefore, I must be a wolf? Does that mean to you that anyone who doesn't seem to play the game well must therefore be innocent?

Looks pretty much like newbie behaviour to me, but it doesn't make it any less irritating. I just hope you'll be more logical toDay when going about your suspicions.

I'd not ignore the Lottie-voters either. True, I don't want to fall into the "one of them has them has to be a wolf" trap, because I've played too many games where wolves have kept right out of a bandwagon. However, the circumstances of that particular one are quite odd.
I never said that we should. In fact, we should not be ignoring anyone because that is how wolves don't get caught. Unfortunately, when there's this many players around it can be really difficult to focus on everyone, unless you have a whole bunch of time on your hands...which most of us don't.

Okay, now actually along this train of thought, I have arrived somehow to being more inclined to believe that there might have been a Wolf among Fea voters more probably. If so, then I'd really put my bets on Brinn, as if you look at what she said toDay early, she started assuming a Wolf in Lottie-saving bandwaggon, but she explicitely named Greenie-wagon to be looked at, which could mean downplaying Fea-voters (of whom she is one)... and the more if Greenie was another fellow Wolf of hers.
The only reason I haven't paid attention to the other Fea voters is because I find Nogrod and skip to be reasonable so far. Of course, I realise this is partly because I do agree with them on some levels. I don't recall anything from yesterDay would give me reason to suspect them. Anyone is welcome to look at the Fea bandwagon. After all, it's totally possible Nogrod or skip is a wolf; I just don't see it yet, though that may always change later into the game. Though if you choose to simply focus on me, you'll find that it'll get you nowhere. As for suggesting the Greenie wagon, I said that I thought it's worth looking at, but I have no actual opinion of it at the moment since I have yet to review yesterDay's events.

Brinn (her selective memory remembers the early nonsense-points against Lottie, but not the later and more serious ones... how convenient, given that every time someone gets more than one vote it's a bandwagon and you have to cry "evil!")
Again, I am skimming through the thread so that's how I interpreted it. There was less content early in the Day which made the silly behaviour more noticeable, but once the larger bulk of posts arrived, it's easier to miss further points made about someone when there's so much to read. I even put in my post:
*Correct me if I'm wrong. I admit I'm not reading posts thoroughly because I'm multi-tasking with schoolwork, so I could easily be missing something here.
No one corrected me, so I wasn't given a reason to think otherwise. Would you like to still show me these serious points against Lottie? Not that it's terribly relevant since it's pretty much certain now she's not a wolf, but I'm still not sure what points you're talking about.

I have somewhere to be soon, so I must go. I'll be back later and will then finally take a closer look at yesterDay (and toDay), but I have to limit myself because I really can't spend the entire evening on WW and not do any schoolwork.

[Inziladun]

I had to eliminate a couple of smilies.

Yay!! It's time to hunt for the Wolvsies and have some tea!! Speaking of tea...Sally would you be so kind as to move your furry little behind into a different pot? That's my homemade blueberry pie with raisins tea you're sleeping in....

First post. IC, with a 'Get those wolves!' thrown in.

First off, hello wintywinty and welcome!! Second:

Oh my...he really does seem to be a plain old innocent for this comment....yet Nerwen brings up an excellent point:

He very well could be simply a confused innocent or a really smart wolfywolfy....Currently I'm inclined to believe the first.

And Nerwen's sigh threw me off there too...A sigh of exasperation. Perhaps either because she is exasperated with the newbie thing or perhaps a sigh of exasperation of her fellow packmate?

Says he thinks ww is probably innocent, yet leaves open the possibility he and Nerwen are packmates.

Nothing about Day 1 is meaningless. What happens on Day 1 is our foundation for what is to happen in the later Days. Yes, most of the posting at the start is purely IC, random and sometimes completely pointless, but not always. There was a game not too long ago that I played where I got Hunter-Killed by a certain someone on Day 1 *coughMORSULcough* and most of that Day's discussion was purely speculation on some of the rules and thus led to the votes that were placed. (Or maybe I'm mixing that up with the game BEFORE it was restarted

Makes sense here about Day 1's being somewhat useful.

Come Sorry, would have posted more if it weren't for the fact that, as I have mentioned in the Admin thread, a good portion of the Day happens to occur during my sleeping hours and then six hours of schooling (with rehearsals every once in awhile afterwards) so I could not get much in other then IC stuff. By the way, it is a pleasure to play with you for the first time!

Explains lack of posting is due to RL. I can empathise.

As for all of this retracting of the votes this early, I see the points raised on why it we should do it. However, personally, knowing my track record, I'm going to hold onto mine for a Day or two more.

I agree with this.

As it stands I am still at a loss of who to suspect and who not to...Lottie kinda stands out for me right now, but that might just be because she thinks I'm a Wolf.

I'm giving Agan a vote pass seeing as it has been a year since she's last played. I'm also giving a vote pass to skip and ww as the newbies to the game....Which leave everyone else.....

Okay, I'm going to go do a little more scrutinizing after I've found something to eat....

Says Lottie stands out because she suspects him. Says Agan, ww, and ss were deserving of Day 1 passes. I concurred with this also.

Quickly doing this for everyone:

Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn (please correct me if I'm wrong on this....)
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea

Okay, will be back shortly

Vote count.

Okay, so I am back and with a slightly clearer (albeit, it's still a little hazed, not gonna lie) view on things.

Nogrod – Cheshire Cat

For some reason I never suspect this guy....Maybe it's just because he always comes across as the level-headed one among us (which is saying something this time around :p) or maybe it's just a charm he has....Although his vote for Fea has me a little worried. Voting for her simply for initiating the voting for Lottie? What reason is that? The bandwagon for Lottie (at least the voting anyway) did not start until well AFTER she had voted.....Hmmm....

Wintywinty – Tweedledum

Newbie pass

Boro88 – the Caterpillar

No read on him as of yet....Want to vote him but that would just be a retaliation vote

Isabellkya – White Rabbit

Has been rather quiet this time around. Maybe there is something RL that is preventing her from being here, or maybe it is a Wolvish tactic to try and sneak by?

Mira – March Hare

I have no read of my fellow tea patron

Sally – the Dormouse

Seems to be, well, Sally: Confusing and unreadable (and thank you for getting out of the tea pot!) yet I see nothing that indicates Wolvish behavior....yet.

Agan – Queen of Hearts

Giving a pass to her as she hasn't played in a year and I don't want to see her go just yet and has also been making some wonderful contributions to the game.

Inzil – King of Hearts

No read on His Grace

Shasta – Knave of Hearts

His vote for Greenie came out of nowhere and looks to me as if it is a Wolf trying to perhaps save one of his own from being lynched. Yet would a Wolf be so bold?

Lottie – Duchess

I don't know what to make of her....However, last time I played with her, we both were innocent and she got lynched Day 1....after having pinned all three Wolves on Day 1 (The sad thing is it happened to me on Day 2 :rolleyes:)

Nerwen – the Dodo

Seemed a little too overprotective of winty initially, but that could easily have been her being exasperated with the newbie.

Legate – Jabberwocky

Has definitely been one of the few people talking sense all Day. Yet his vote for Lottie has me a little perplexed. He stated that he did not like all the bandwagon votes and suspicions for her yet he himself later voted her? True he had stated suspicions of her for awhile, but his vote almost seems as if he's making it to ensure her being lynched....Hmmmm....

Morsul – the Mock Turtle

Has seemed very Morsul like....which bugs me....Yet last time I voted him, he ended up being the Hunter and he Hunter killed me....So I think I'm going to leave him be for the time being.

Nienna – White Queen

Seems to be flying under the radar....perhaps a little too much, at least for my liking. Wolvish tactic to stay clear perhaps?

Fea – Red Queen

Her vote for Lottie is the only thing that holds any suspicion for me, yet it could very well be a Cobbler tactic....However, as pointed out earlier, the Cobbler can prove to be our downfall later in the game. Or maybe the vote was simply to be rid of her retractable vote?

Skip – Humpty Dumpty

Also getting a Newbie pass

Lommy – the Gryphon

I have no read on her.

Greenie – White Knight

Her vote for Lottie seems kind of like a bandwagon vote to me.

Brinniel – Tweedledee

Her posts all well thought out and full of substance


Okay, will make a list, will post it in a few and perhaps with my vote as well.

EDIT: Xed with Zil, Boro, Moddess and who knows who else....

Hmm. What stands out to me is that he knocked Shasta for voting Greenie, but himself noted that her vote for Lottie was bandwaggonish.


A Vote Update!


Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea
Shasta ----> Greenie
Sally -------> Legate
Nogrod ---> Fea(2)
Zil ----------> Mira(2)

Another vote count.

Not Voting
Winty
Skip
Agan
Brinn
Morsul

Probably Won't Vote
Sally
Nerwen
Boro
Izzy
Mira
Inzil
Nienna
Lommy

Could Vote For
Fea
Lottie
Nogrod
Legate
Greenie
Shasta


By the by, this is not necessarily in order (as in the could vote for, just because Fea is at the top does not mean she's my top suspect)

A list of who he won't, might, and would vote for. It seems fairly consistent with things he'd said before.

You know Lottie, I've read you're reasoning of suspecting me and I still don't quite understand it. Could I ask you to clarify?

A fair question to Lottie.

Can you explain to me how and when I have been fraternizing with Greenie and Agan? I have not said two words to either of them. As for Sally, yes, I have fraternized with her, IC, as, if you have read the books, our characters go together.

Asks Lottie for more clarification about her suspicions of him.

And you would know this how? Only way you would be able to know anything about what I would do is if you're a mind-reader.

Now this sounds a little defensive to me, but then it could have been the reaction of an exasperated innocent too.

Okay, I'm going to vote.....

highlight]++Shasta[/highlight]

Yes, this will probably end up being a throw-away vote, but I actually do find him a little suspicious. His vote for Greenie came out of absolutely nowhere and really had no substantial backing to it.

Admits Shasta was a throwaway vote (and it was, because Shasta had no other votes), but his explanation is at least consistent with his earlier remarks about Shasta.
However, I still would wonder why he thought Shasta was bad for voting Greenie, when Glirdan noted Greenie's vote for Lottie looked bandwaggonish.

Well, I didn't vote Lottie cuz I actually think the bandwagon for her is ridiculous, I really do. I want to see her stay. She's pretty good at picking out the Wolves, why the get rid of her?

Wants to see Lottie stay, but he could have picked someone who had a shot of being lynched as an alternate.

Conclusions: I agree with a lot of the smaller points he's brought up, but his vote could have been better. And I know, the same could be said about me. :rolleyes:
I'm not convinced he's a wolf, but I'm by no means convinced of his innocence either.

x/d with Brinn

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Only here for the next two minutes or so, so I haven't had time to do more than skim, but I do have one quick thing to say - I still don't like Greenie's vote from yesterday.

I should be back in a few hours with something of more substance.

[wilwarin538]

Votes

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally (2)

Because I'm cool like that. ;)

[Aganzir]

Okay I'm seriously going to kill Lommy if she's a wolf because I love her vote analysis post and generally seem to agree with her quite much.

I don't like her picking a fight with Lottie the Known Innocent.
And I don't like Lottie the Known Innocent being convinced I'm a baddie with flimsy and subjective "I've already decided you're a wolf and do my best to pick up only those things you've done that back up my theory" reasons. If she wasn't a known innocent I'm pretty certain wouldn't be picking a fight with her but attacking her in return.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that you are making a big deal of this.
Yeah, on that I agree, and I suppose I make too big a deal of it but once I got started, it just felt natural to carry on with it. I still think it would be good if no one had their retraction left in a couple of days, but I see that's very unlikely to happen (and in that light, it was a mistake to waste mine, but I am a woman of my word). Still, those who haven't used their retraction should be kept an eye on, and not just during the last days when it can really make a difference because then it's already too late (the wolves can always come up with an excuse to save their retraction for a few days).
I am not telling anybody to do it, but I think it's what an innocent would do...

Hey Zil sorry if I've missed something but I don't think I got an answer to my question:
[Zil thought] the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?

I think knowing sally's role would shed some light on other people, but although I have nothing against her death, I don't like Morsul's vote. It doesn't seem genuine, it looks as if he was intentionally trying to come up with reasons to vote for her. Okay Nienna phrased it better than me, I basically agree with her.

was her role really that surprising?
Yes in the same way as when a wolf you haven't been suspecting dies. It didn't occur to you that they were a wolf so you're surprised, although in hindsight you should've (or could have) guessed. But I don't think that's a very important issue.

Hey Nienna you didn't answer my question:
Mira - she seems very innocent-Mira at the moment
What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.

at the end of the Day reason your vote based on things that have been said throughout the Day.
The thing is, nobody said that you have good insights and you're a very good player/wolf - during the day. Winty says it's something many have said, but who has he heard it from if no one has said so here? Lottie how much have you been talking to him about the Downs, and have you praised Brinn to him?
It might be newbie behaviour, but I think it's pretty darn suspicious newbie behaviour. And although Brinn brought up other points against him (you can't vote for someone early and explain it by things "others have said"), her reaction to winty's post is somewhat lesser than I imagined it would be. It looks as if she was giving him advice, but if they were fellows why did he vote for her then? Of course it's possible she's nothing but an experienced player instructing a newbie, regardless of their roles...

[Nienna]

Hey Nienna you didn't answer my question: What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.


Ooops sorry dear it must have gotten lost in the shuffle. Mira's Day One participation are generally just banter and she has a tendency to air on the side of defensiveness where her "people" are concerned in the early stages(by "people" I mean mainly her RL friends). So to me her measly 3 posts yesterDay were very Mira-esque.

On Greenie:

30 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626656&postcount=30) – First post, complains about the votes so far and the madness/oddness of the day, she warns of bad participation but promises better in the next Days, asks people to be sensible

61 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626717&postcount=61) – Doesn’t agree with Mira’s reflection that WinWin’s vote was suspicious, Agan is being helpful and providing substance, doesn’t like Lottie’s “gut feelings” as they provide a nice out if an innocent is lynched, thinks Lommy is being mysterious and weird… she knows it isn’t usual but she isn’t sure if it is suspicious or not

86 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626745&postcount=86) – apologizes for poor concentration, votes Lottie (3rd vote) with what she knows is outrageously bad reasoning, she thinks Lottie may be an easy day one Ordo lynch but she is the only person that Greenie thinks is being suspicious.

On the whole her participation hasn't been good (which she warned of) but her reasoning for voting Lottie was poor and even though she knows it was poor that isn't really an excuse. If she was worried about a bandwagon she could have voted someone else. I would love to please hear more from her toDay.

[Inziladun]

*NOTE*- many smilies eliminated

I always wonder why, if the mod starts a day early, they allow the wolves to PM at the same time that the village can talk. I would so want to seize the opportunity to do something silly with my fellows if I was in that situation.

This was her first post, and I edited out some of the banter and things I didn't find signigicant.
Regarding the above statement, I'm not sure what, if anything, to make of it, but it seems like an odd thing to say.

Hey Shasta why does Fea's vote bother you? And why do you say 'still' when that's the first time you say it?

Brinn seems to be her normal self (ie she slightly rubs me the wrong way). But yeah she speaks sense, unlike most of the others.

By the way winty, we shouldn't edit our posts except to mark cross-posting. And it's true there are no reasons for votes yet, but that's why we're talking. Sooner or later somebody says or does something suspicious. Of course it helps if we have some corpses whose relations to living players we can observe, but first we need to get going.

No it doesn't make me evil, it only makes me unfaithful.

Greenie's tone strikes me as overly self-conscious! Nothing has indeed changed during my absence!

Usually when a newbie wolf enters the pack the older team members tell them to look just as new and ignorant and confused as they normally would and not to give away the slightest hint that they have received nightly counsel. And you have been a wolf enough times to know this is true. Or are you speculating about what you did last night? What exactly made you draw attention to winty after two posts? It looks like a Nerwolf looking for an easy lynch.

I thought the bit at the end about Nerwen was an overreaction. I didn't get anything like that from Nerwen's comments about ww.

The seer should keep in mind that they can't trust their dreams 100% because the cobbler appears as innocent. Last time I played in a game where the seer couldn't discern the cobbler's true identity, we wolves totally used it to our advantage and left him alive although he was supposedly a known innocent, and in the end we won because we could control his vote... Ah fond memories! But yeah that's why I think the cobbler should be killed as soon as possible (ie if the seer says 'X is an ordo' but we think 'X is damn suspicious' => lynch X), I've played in too many a game (three readily spring to mind) where people have said, 'Let's go for the most wolfish-looking person, we can deal with the cobbler later.' Well, when there are fewer and fewer people left, nobody wants to 'waste' a lynch on the cobbler and ta-da, soon the cobbler plays a crucial role in the evil victory.

Makes a good point about why someone looking like the Cobbler should be treated as a wolf, ie lynched. I agree with this.

Also, if the Cursed is turned (and the risk exists until they die and we see they were the Cursed), it practically destroys the seer's known innocent list.
I am saying this now as I've said this before, because it's better if the seer isn't sure than if the seer is too sure and wrong.

Again, makes sense.

Basically a wolf can vote in any way whatsoever, and playing a major role in the lynching of a wolf doesn't redeem anybody because wolves might as well sacrifice one for the pack to make the rest look good.

Yes and no. If it's early in the game, I'd say the wolves are highly unlikely to make a gamble like that. Later on, however, maybe.

Even if you don't understand why somebody does something, it doesn't make it silly. And what does it matter if they 'waste' their retractable votes early on? After all it's the wolves who benefit the most from them, and if everybody used theirs at once, we would eliminate the risk of wolf-organised lynches later.
I don't claim Fea's or winty's vote make them innocent, but Morsul is awfully quick to jump on them with flimsy reasoning.

Doesn't like Morsul suspecting the early voters, Fea and ww.

Using the retractable votes quickly might be worth some discussion... Personally I would be happy with everybody using theirs as soon as possible. Innocents vote alone, but the wolves, having a way to communicate, can use their votes in a much broader scale. I seem to remember a game (phantom's last one, for those who know. In addition to their normal daily vote, every player had 10 extra votes they could use whenever they wished) where pretty much everybody else but the wolves used some of their votes during the first days. The wolves saved all or most of theirs for later and won because they could use their extra votes against the village all at once.
And when there is something like 6 people left, two of whom wolves, it does make a difference if the wolves can retract and the others cannot.

I don't agree with the idea that everyone should get rid of their retractable vote for no purpose. I've already said why not, though, so I won't go into it again.

I was honestly expecting people would jump on my comment like 'You there are you trying to undermine the seer's authority and sow discord, you're a wolf!' so does the fact that you liked my point mean you're a wolf?

A response to Legate saying he agreed with her statements about the Seer and Cobbler.

Yeah but there are some things that remain pretty much the same from game to game, among them that newbie wolves should behave as if they had no pack backing them up. And I don't think the "newbie or newbie wolf" question is a problem yet - thus far it's just a question, but you're trying to make it a problem. So we lynch winty and she/he was an innocent, and what have we left? An easy lynch and nothing else.

Responding to Nerwen, who said whether ww was a newbie or a newbie-wolf should be looked at. I don't think Nerwen was being too forceful on the subject. I found ww's behaviour unnerving also, and Agan comes across as somewhat overly agressive here.


Trust me, if I was looking for an easy day 1 lynch after a year's WW break, it would not be you.
Yeah his vote was random, but he is a newbie and at least I am willing to forgive newbies for things I wouldn't forgive for example people like you on day 1. It's alright to remark on it, but I think you were pushing it a tad too hard. Making it a bigger issue than it really was.

Explains why she doesn't like Nerwen's scrutiny of ww. I just don't get how Nerwen was over-the-top on that.

Thanks for saving my voice and speaking my thoughts aloud, dear husband.

Apparently agrees with me that ww may have just been following Fea or joking with his vote.

This next quote was Mira's:

I do agree with whoever suggested it might be of a wolfish nature and xe was told to act newbieish to allay suspicion. Or it could be a newbie mistake.

Your conclusion = it was suspicious? I see but a plus-minus-zero situation.

I agree with Agan, and that's one of the reasons I ended up voting Mira. That statement looked off.

Guilty
Mira. Suspecting newbies is just way too easy, and at the same time she clears Fea's vote (despite the 'on a more serious note' start, the whole comment looked like a joke though).
Morsul. I don't like his reasoning, he seems way too quick to jump to conclusions. But maybe it's just his style. Out of curiosity, how many games have you actually played in, Morsul?
Lottie. I didn't really see any issue with Lottie's earlier behaviour (granted I just skimmed through her first posts because I was in a hurry and didn't think they contained anything very important). However I disagree with her later comments on people - although I don't know if it's because of the content or the style they're written. And that moves her from Nonsense onto the Guilty list. It feels sort of weird that she should make an analysis of a player (Glirdy) who has only posted some random IC banter, like, who makes an analysis on day 1 when there's so little to go on? And hahaha it's sort of grotesque to use the abbreviations WW and SS for the newbies.

Those whom she suspects. All this seems fairly reasonable, except Morsul on the suspect list because of his 'style', whereas later she seem to want to give Lottie an allowance for the same thing.

Nonsense
Glirdy. Content? Where's the actual content?
Nog. The first one to say he was uneasy about Lottie's behaviour, wasn't he? For relatively little reason, I think ("infamous mode of "no bad person, even insane one, would do that kind of a thing").
winty. Newbie so I won't vote for her/him today. I think people read too much into his/her vote.
sally. Content? Where's the actual content?
Shasta. It's a worse welcome than voting that you suspect me because of my natural lynch-happiness.
Fea. I'm alright with her vote.
Green. She's another one whose tone always sets me off and I always think she's too laid-back to have the village's best interests in mind, but so far I don't havean opinion of her.
Nerwen. I think her reaction to winty's vote was exaggerated and it looks as if she was looking for an easy lynch, but Nerwen and I also have a history of being on each other's throats (usually it starts with me on Nerwen's throat) so I'm going to wait for more evidence (like the word terrible ) before making a judgement.

She doesn't have Nerwen on her 'guilty' list, which makes me think Agan looks better there. It would have been all too easy to keep up that suspicion, if Agan was a wolf. Then again, there's the thought they could both be wolves.

Nope for me it isn't. What if I died today or in the night and nobody else had thought of it (if it's not of any great strategic importance, I prefer to say what I mean to say right away and not wait for a more relevant situation that may never come)? And if the seer can't fully trust their dreams, it's better they keep it in mind from the start, not only if/when they come out with their name list. I have won a game as a wolf because the seer trusted the cobbler was innocent, and if there's something I love, it's making my best so other wolves can't use my tricks to win when I'm not on their side.

Responding to Nog, who said all Agan's talk of the Seer and Cobbler wasn't a major issue at the moment.

Greenie's last post moves her up towards my Innocent list because I agree with her (actually about everything) and she calls me lovely. :p However I wonder too if I should be worried that I don't suspect her, because usually when I do she's innocent.

Agrees with Geenie's post here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626717&postcount=61).

Ookay I've never played with Morsul before so I don't know how he's supposed to behave, but I don't like him nonetheless and he's still a candidate for my vote.

Morsul has been known to garner a few votes for his playing style.

I think Greenie and Legate and Lommy do have a point about Lottie and I might vote for her too but then again I'm unsure because I don't know her style.

Now again, why is Morsul worse because of the way he plays, but she admits her problems with Lottie may also be due to the latter's style?

Sorry but would you care to speak English that's understandable even to a non-native speaker so I don't have to spend a twice longer time reading your post than I would need for anyone else?

As you might have noticed I didn't play in last game. And it's perfectly alright to point out what you find odd, but your thought process in the post I found suspicious seemed half-hearted and lazy and somehow far-fetched too (the part that Lommy or someone else pointed out). Give better reasons for your suspicions and I might change my mind about you.

All that was directed at Morsul. I had some trouble deciphering this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626741&postcount=83) myself.

++Mirandir[/highlight]

because thus far she seems the most suspicious to me.

oh and

highlight]--Mirandir[/highlight]
highlight]++Mirandir[/highlight]

as I dislike retrackies anyway, and this is what I think everyone should do because otherwise the wolves will probably use them against us in the end.


Votes Mira, puts her money where her mouth is on the retractables.

I think we really should keep track on who has used their retraction and who hasn't, and that everyone should use them asap, because as I've said they are more useful to the wolves than to us.

I think that's a decent idea.

That's it for Day 1.

Okay I don't have too much time now...

*is sad about Boro's death* :

Me too but I'm happy she was lynched in the end. That's what happens when you think you know better what Fea is doing...

No s*it Sherlock!
I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs. However it's likely that the wolves spend more time looking for possible connections than the innocents. But on the other hand, Lottie might have been a relatively easy lynch today... So I don't really know.

Good morning Brinn! And to be honest I'm quite surprised that Lommy is posting as early as at 11.

Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.

I've done that before, and been wrong.

And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot (by the way last night I had a dream I was a wolf. Inzil was too).

Going to post it in the BD Dreams?

I'd like to know that too (and not only because I'm one of her wolves) and I would totally be suspecting her because of it if she wasn't the other Shirriff... Because I have yet to see a day 1 when someody pins down all the wolves at once (oh wait I did that in Mith's game! But granted it was jokingly).

Certainly a fair question for Lottie, as to how she's so sure she's nailed the wolf-pack.

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

Agan does have a point or two. She did throw suspicion Lottie's way, but hers didn't seem to be the loudest voice calling for Lottie's lynch.

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever :p), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.
He also considered Fea but didn't vote for her simply because he didn't think she was a wolf, and then attacked the Lottie-wagoners, saying the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?

Looks like I have to go through this one more time.

I didn't know what to make of Fea. I honestly considered the idea she was the Cobbler, but then again her vote was something a Fea of any stripe might have done. So I wasn't prepared to vote for her.

I don't think I ever said Legate and Lommy were not suspicious, but as I looked back over things I couldn't find much else, beyond their votes for Lottie, that pointed to which of them, if either, was the more likely wolf. At any rate, when I voted it didn't look as if either one of them would have been lynched, and I didn't want to simply throw away my vote that way.

It will not actually help us, but if nobody had their retractions, it wouldn't help the wolves either, and that's what I'm after... However I see I'm not getting much support. Quite a few people have said they want to save their votes because they've been in a situation before where their vote has been the decisive one. Might well be there's a wolf among them, but I have no time to pursue that further now.

Considering the fact that very few have used their retractables, I would say it's highly likely there's wolves in the group that hasn't. I don't see how not wanting to waste a tool that could just as easily be used against wolves as to aid them, is a mark of evil.

Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.
Who has said that? I don't disagree, I just can't for the life in me remember having seen anyone talk about Brinn before your vote.

That line of reasoning from ww is very poor coming from an innocent. But you don't disagree?

Conclusion? As with Glirdan, I've found myself agreeing with some of the things she's said. I didn't like the way she suspected Nerwen for making what I thought were reasonable questions about ww. There was also the way she appears to have something of a double standard when it comes to Morsul and Lottie, and allowing for their playing styles.
The way she toDay insinuates that those who want to keep their retractables in case they need them are possibly wolfy for wanting to do so is at best a long shot, and at worst a furry plan to fabricate some cases on people.
I think I'm on the fence for the moment, but if she starts in on people who aren't willing to dump their retractables that could change.

x/d with all since my last

[satansaloser2005]

Sally demands an explanation for this suspicion crap. Like, seriously?

I'll explain the thing with Morsul and Shasta though, because I can see how you would be confused. I suspected Morsul already and had been planning to say something about it, so when Shasta did as well I was like "Look, yay, support, I'm not crazy". Then Shasta says he realized Morsul was kidding (yeah, because NO ONE has every hidden behind jokes before, oh noes, never) and I thought it was strange because for pity's sake, that was a quick flip flop and quite the lame excuse. So then I made it clear that I suspected Morsul anyway, 'cause I hadn't been following Shasta in the first place, he just happened to post first.


Oh, and did no one see that I'd been suspecting Lottie from the beginning? Sure, Legate can say he started the trend but I said "Something's not right with her" well toward the beginning of the Day. (Yes, I know, I was clearly wrong, but that's not the point.) And I never went toward a "Save Lottie she's innocent" point of view. The only thing I said that could be read like that was that I wanted to not kill her on Day One (AGAIN) and that I thought there were better candidates.



Really, this is ridiculous. I think you've all been putting things in your tea.


As a side note, I'm leaving now, but I'll be back later and will look at people. I want to look at newbienewbie ;) again because I was still getting alarm bells there a bit, but I don't want people to waste time suspecting me (especially with such crappy reasoning) when there are cleary wolves to catch. :rolleyes:


Back later! Behave until then, please?

[Aganzir]

Ooops sorry dear it must have gotten lost in the shuffle. Mira's Day One participation are generally just banter and she has a tendency to air on the side of defensiveness where her "people" are concerned in the early stages(by "people" I mean mainly her RL friends). So to me her measly 3 posts yesterDay were very Mira-esque.
Okay thanks. I haven't changed my mind about her ww suspicion, but I'd like to hear more from her.

Yes and no. If it's early in the game, I'd say the wolves are highly unlikely to make a gamble like that. Later on, however, maybe.
Nope, they can do it as early as on day 1 if their fellow comes under heavy suspicion (or if they think there's no chance that their fellow is lynched). It's happened before and will continue to happen because it's just so darn convenient for the wolves.

I found ww's behaviour unnerving also, and Agan comes across as somewhat overly agressive here.
Seriously it was a newbie's first post.

Those whom she suspects. All this seems fairly reasonable, except Morsul on the suspect list because of his 'style', whereas later she seem to want to give Lottie an allowance for the same thing.
Not the same thing because their styles are different. Morsul's struck me as opportunistic whereas Lottie was mostly just too over-confident to my liking.

She doesn't have Nerwen on her 'guilty' list, which makes me think Agan looks better there. It would have been all too easy to keep up that suspicion, if Agan was a wolf.
No it wouldn't. If Nerwen had given me a reason to suspect her beyond her treatment of ww, I would have - regardless of my role.

I've done that before, and been wrong.
Me too and that's why I said Lommy and Mac may laugh at me (they both have been targets for my forceful and unjust attacks more than once :p).

Going to post it in the BD Dreams?
Nope because as long as the game is running I'm not going to talk of it outside of the game thread. Who knows, I might be the seer who just dreamed of Wolfziladun, or it might be a lie I told for a reason unknown to you. :p
In any case, I can't remember anything more about the dream so I don't think I will even after the game is over.

I don't think I ever said Legate and Lommy were not suspicious, but as I looked back over things I couldn't find much else, beyond their votes for Lottie, that pointed to which of them, if either, was the more likely wolf.
Yes but what was so suspicious about the Lottie-wagon in the first place? You just decided it was fishy but when looking at the Lottie-voters, none of them was suspicious enough to receive your vote. Usually people and their reasons for voting make a bandwagon suspicious, not the other way round.

I don't see how not wanting to waste a tool that could just as easily be used against wolves as to aid them, is a mark of evil.
By itself it's not, but I think it's far more likely that the wolves use their retraction to kill an innocent than the other way round. Yeah I know they can be useful to the innocents too, but their benefit for the wolves is more imminent.

That line of reasoning from ww is very poor coming from an innocent. But you don't disagree?
What I don't disagree about is that Brinn is a good player and, if a wolf, asset to the wolf team (I've been a wolf with her and heck she's brilliant). I can hardly disagree (in the sense I understand the word) on what ww claims to be the reason for his vote.

Conclusion? As with Glirdan, I've found myself agreeing with some of the things she's said.
Most of the things, I would say. :p

I think I'm on the fence for the moment, but if she starts in on people who aren't willing to dump their retractables that could change.
I don't like that comment. I wasn't planning to do it, but that looks too much like a threat. Yeah yeah I might be totally overestimating how important the wolves consider the retrackies, but still.

I think sally should be suspected more often if it gets her to speak seriously. :-p

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

The croquet-game has been cancelled! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8611486.stm)

(~~~) *grin vanishing*


(~~~) *grin re-appearing*

Finally back and reading, that is.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Mirandir]

Oooh not a ton for me to catch up on even though the Day's more than half over. *approves*

I suspected Mira and Morsul more.

Yes dear, would you care to explain that one for me please?

I also really disliked Zil's vote for me. If he could explain that too, I'd appreciate it.

Ooops sorry dear it must have gotten lost in the shuffle. Mira's Day One participation are generally just banter and she has a tendency to air on the side of defensiveness where her "people" are concerned in the early stages(by "people" I mean mainly her RL friends). So to me her measly 3 posts yesterDay were very Mira-esque.

Dead on. :D

So enough about me. :rolleyes:

I tend to trust Lottie's shirriff reveal, since I see no reason not to. Her suspicion of Greenie makes me suspicious of her by default, but I'll have to go through and look a bit deeper at her posts.

So based on that information, I'll probably vote for Agan, Zil, or Greenie unless they manage to clear themselves in my eyes.

I'm also on the fence about Morsul and sally. Morsul's "vote of opportunity" seems mighty suspicious.

Said analysis of Greenie's posts might take a while since it's finals week and I reeeeally need to not get another D in seminar. Just sayin'.

[Thinlómien]

No one corrected me, so I wasn't given a reason to think otherwise. Would you like to still show me these serious points against Lottie? Not that it's terribly relevant since it's pretty much certain now she's not a wolf, but I'm still not sure what points you're talking about.I don't have time to look them up now (it's late and we share net with Greenie) but you should find them by searching for "lottie" or "loslote" in any Loslote-voter's (or Aganzir's) post. I was mostly wary of her apologetic, suspiciousness-admitting attitude which I associate with relative-newbie wolves.

One word about the retractions - I think the one-retraction rule is mostly because if somebody has to leave early and doesn't know if s/he can be back, so then s/he can vote and switch it if the situation has totally changed. In that sense, it does make sense, although I personally dislike reatractable votes too.


edit: xed with Nog and Mir

[Thinlómien]

Ai ai, that Mira post screams evil to me. The problem is, I always suspect her, regardless of her role. :rolleyes:

[wintywinty]

Grar. I want Lottie to live to see another Day, if only one.

++Legate


For being too excited to lynch Lottie. ;)

Also....for Wilwa....

They're painting their voteses red
They're painting their voteses red
etc.

(I'll do a whole parody if I survive the Night, I swear.)

This seems suspicious, as if he is attempting to remain innocent, but throws away a vote on someone who is obviously not going to be lynched, not helping save Lottie, even though he states he wants her to live.

[Aganzir]

GUILTY
Morsul. I still don't like his reasoning but I don't know if I'm reading too much into it because apparently everyone else (who has played with him before) is fine with it.

Mira. I don't have anything on her except for her weird treatment of winty, but she's staying here until she gives me a reason to consider her innocent. If she's a wolf, I'll be almost convinced Inzil is not.

winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly.

Inzil. I don't like his comment about the Lottie wagon. Plus he seems to trust Lottie enough to consider her suspects (or all of them except for, conveniently, Greenie) serious enough to go through them himself but still thinks it's appropriate of me to ask Lottie why she's so sure... If he's a wolf I think Greenie should be looked closely at, and the other way round (I'm just afraid it would be too obvious though). And of course knowing his role would shed some light on Mira's. Actually I might well vote for him today.

INNOCENT
Lottie. Although I do think her suspicion of me is bad (obviously since I'm innocent) and she's generally too convinced about people's guilt too early.

Lommy. Speaks sensibly and things I can easily agree on. Of course there's a chance she's fooling me magnificently but at the moment I'm not too concerned about that, because she really seems innocent.

Isabell. Speaks sense and I find myself agreeing with her, although I'm not sure if I should be worried because I also have a history of mistrusting her when she's innocent (ie always, except for her first game, but it doesn't count because we were fellows).

Nienna. She is sensible and has a generally innocent air.

skip. I think he looks quite innocent, and of course I might misjudge him but I don't think he'd ask if the wolves knew the cobbler's identity if he was one.

Legate. Had a small dispute with Inzil, I don't know what to make of it but I'd like to know Inzil's role for sure soon. Seems quite innocentish.

EITHER
Nog. Still looks innocent enough, and he nailed Fea which I don't think a wolfish Noggy had done (hmm except that one of my first lessons was that Wolfgrod does anything that makes him look innocent, even at a cost to his pack). Okay I don't think he's guilty but I'm not convinced about his innocence either so he's here.

sally. Seems to be today's favourite lynch target. Mostly banter and that's almost enough of a reason for me to vote for her. Plus her death would shed light on other people. I think her reaction to being suspected was outraged in an innocentish way, though.

Glirdan. Haven't formed an opinion, and because I want to go to sleep soon it will have to wait.

Shasta. See Glirdan.

Greenie. No new material, people have brought up points against her but I will have to look at it, and I don't think her vote was so bad.

Brinniel. Innocentish and sensible but her reaction to winty's reasoning didn't sit quite right with me. Will have to see more.

Nerwen. She's the last because I'm at the moment rather undecided about her. I didn't like how she jumped on winty's day 1 vote (come on he's a newbie), but apart from that she's been innocentish. However she's Nerwen so you never know.

[Mirandir]

Apparently I was just kidding on the "this might take a while" thing. WW is way more entertaining than studying.

#30 banter, says participation will be shoddy

Can't say there's anything really suspicious about that.

#61 Questions my analysis of winty's vote, but doesn't find it suspicious. Find's Agan helpful but admits she always suspects her when she's innocent so maybe she's a wolf now. Apologizes for flip flopping. Doesn't like Lottie's "gut feeling" post. Thinks Lommy acting "purposefully mysterious" is wierd, but doesn't know if it's suspicious.

Sort of defends winty, isn't sure about Agan or Lommy, and doesn't like Lottie's logic. Lottie is now a known innocent. .

#86 Admits reasoning is "outrageously bad," afraid Lottie will become typical Day 1 easy lynch but is the only one she has a valid point on. Votes Lottie.

Unless I missed something, I wouldn't call not liking gut feelings a valid point. Pretty much I don't like it because now Lottie's a known innocent. But then again, hindsight is 20/20. :confused:

So pretty much my entire suspicion of Greenie is based on the fact that she voted Lottie yesterDay. Well that backfired. *headdesk*

[Thinlómien]

...? Now winwin seriously baffles me. I'll think about it toMorrow if we're both alive - now I'm too tired (just suddenly got veery sleepy, but after all it's midnight here...)

So, my vote

++Glirdan

I'm willing to give Zil the benefit of doubt for toDay, and I'm not convinced enough of Sally's guilt to give her a third vote, especially now that her recent defense has left me with mixed feelings. Mira? Brinn? Nog? Not enough actual points to make a vote against them. So Glirdan it is. For reasons:

- Glirdan (says the bandwagon is ridiculous and asks why get rid of Lottie since she's good at spotting wolves... really, most of us are good at that at our best, and should we lynch those who aren't just to ensure they'll never learn?)


Suspicious
Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.

Have a good chat and lynch a wolf! Good night! ;)


edit: xed with Agan & Mira

[Mirandir]

Ai ai, that Mira post screams evil to me. The problem is, I always suspect her, regardless of her role. :rolleyes:

And how many of the times you've suspected me have I actually been evil? :rolleyes:

[Aganzir]

Yes dear, would you care to explain that one for me please?
How about you first explain to me...
wintywinty's vote is more suspicious. I do agree with whoever suggested it might be of a wolfish nature and xe was told to act newbieish to allay suspicion. Or it could be a newbie mistake.
...why his vote is more suspicious because it could go either way? That was my main issue about your post, not the fact that you defended Fea.
Do you also want me to explain again why I suspected Morsul more than Lottie?

Oh and do you have any other reason to consider voting for me but that I suspect you?

And wintywinty now that you're apparently here, could you please answer my question? Who said Brinn is a good player?

[Loslote]

*is sad about Boro's death*
(...)
Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.
And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot (by the way last night I had a dream I was a wolf. Inzil was too).

I'd like to know that too (and not only because I'm one of her wolves) and I would totally be suspecting her because of it if she wasn't the other Shirriff... Because I have yet to see a day 1 when someody pins down all the wolves at once (oh wait I did that in Mith's game! But granted it was jokingly ;-)).

First of all, the *is sad about Boro's death* line just screams wolf.

Secondly, it's been done. Several times. Read Morsul's game; read Gwath's game; read Sally's game - I find wolves on Day 1 and, usually, get lynched for it. It's sort of my trademark. :rolleyes:

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

Mostly you seemed to be calling for dumping retractables and my/Mira's death. The retractables issue wasn't that helpful, as it's something people didn't really get behind or hate, so it made you seem like you were contributing when you really weren't helping all that much.

out of everyone who was not him or you, you wanted to say, I assume. Anyway... in contrary to people wondering about Lottie's suspects, I suggest we really consider them strongly (especially those which they agreed on). Of course, they are subjectively biased by the fact that it's two Shiriffs who have something in common who are making them, but the fact that two innocent people can communicate and agree on somebody is worth taking into account. Of course a bunch of innocents can be misled by pursuing the same illusion (and it happens all the time), but still - two brains know more than one. How many PMs did you guys exchange, Lottie? Especially the last Night? (Not sure if you are any longer around, but anyway, I think this might be a good thing to say anyway, as for us to take into account in the future - the more you've been able to put together the better.) For that matter, did you or Boro have any fears as to that you might be targeted at Night? (Like that Boro's apology to Fea in the last minute... when I saw it, it seemed like rather an unfortunate thing to say.)

By that point we'd given up on secrecy. And yeah, we did guess that one of us would die. We hoped for a Ranger-miracle, but decided that if one of us ended up dying, the other would reveal so as to give the village a known innocent.

We usually weren't online at the same time, but late in Day 1 we exhanged a lot of pms, and (I think) twenty eight pms over all. Maybe four last Night.

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever :p), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.

Because, of course, there's no such thing as wolf-on-wolf, and no such thing as a misled innocent.

And I don't like Lottie the Known Innocent being convinced I'm a baddie with flimsy and subjective "I've already decided you're a wolf and do my best to pick up only those things you've done that back up my theory" reasons. If she wasn't a known innocent I'm pretty certain wouldn't be picking a fight with her but attacking her in return.
(...)
The thing is, nobody said that you have good insights and you're a very good player/wolf - during the day. Winty says it's something many have said, but who has he heard it from if no one has said so here? Lottie how much have you been talking to him about the Downs, and have you praised Brinn to him?

Don't worry; proper analysis to follow.

And I haven't talked to him at all about Downers. We've talked about general game play, but not specifics.

Nope, they can do it as early as on day 1 if their fellow comes under heavy suspicion (or if they think there's no chance that their fellow is lynched). It's happened before and will continue to happen because it's just so darn convenient for the wolves.
(...)
Not the same thing because their styles are different. Morsul's struck me as opportunistic whereas Lottie was mostly just too over-confident to my liking.

Oh, so now wolf-on-wolf exists. (See quote about Zil above.)

My style is always over-confident, mostly because I always am. :Merisu:

EDIT: xed since Nog

[Loslote]

This seems suspicious, as if he is attempting to remain innocent, but throws away a vote on someone who is obviously not going to be lynched, not helping save Lottie, even though he states he wants her to live.

She. Sally is a she. And yes, that is rather suspicious, and one of my (and other people's) main points.

GUILTY
Morsul. I still don't like his reasoning but I don't know if I'm reading too much into it because apparently everyone else (who has played with him before) is fine with it.

Mira. I don't have anything on her except for her weird treatment of winty, but she's staying here until she gives me a reason to consider her innocent. If she's a wolf, I'll be almost convinced Inzil is not.

winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly.

Inzil. I don't like his comment about the Lottie wagon. Plus he seems to trust Lottie enough to consider her suspects (or all of them except for, conveniently, Greenie) serious enough to go through them himself but still thinks it's appropriate of me to ask Lottie why she's so sure... If he's a wolf I think Greenie should be looked closely at, and the other way round (I'm just afraid it would be too obvious though). And of course knowing his role would shed some light on Mira's. Actually I might well vote for him today.

INNOCENT
Lottie. Although I do think her suspicion of me is bad (obviously since I'm innocent) and she's generally too convinced about people's guilt too early.

Lommy. Speaks sensibly and things I can easily agree on. Of course there's a chance she's fooling me magnificently but at the moment I'm not too concerned about that, because she really seems innocent.

Isabell. Speaks sense and I find myself agreeing with her, although I'm not sure if I should be worried because I also have a history of mistrusting her when she's innocent (ie always, except for her first game, but it doesn't count because we were fellows).

Nienna. She is sensible and has a generally innocent air.

skip. I think he looks quite innocent, and of course I might misjudge him but I don't think he'd ask if the wolves knew the cobbler's identity if he was one.

Legate. Had a small dispute with Inzil, I don't know what to make of it but I'd like to know Inzil's role for sure soon. Seems quite innocentish.

EITHER
Nog. Still looks innocent enough, and he nailed Fea which I don't think a wolfish Noggy had done (hmm except that one of my first lessons was that Wolfgrod does anything that makes him look innocent, even at a cost to his pack). Okay I don't think he's guilty but I'm not convinced about his innocence either so he's here.

sally. Seems to be today's favourite lynch target. Mostly banter and that's almost enough of a reason for me to vote for her. Plus her death would shed light on other people. I think her reaction to being suspected was outraged in an innocentish way, though.

Glirdan. Haven't formed an opinion, and because I want to go to sleep soon it will have to wait.

Shasta. See Glirdan.

Greenie. No new material, people have brought up points against her but I will have to look at it, and I don't think her vote was so bad.

Brinniel. Innocentish and sensible but her reaction to winty's reasoning didn't sit quite right with me. Will have to see more.

Nerwen. She's the last because I'm at the moment rather undecided about her. I didn't like how she jumped on winty's day 1 vote (come on he's a newbie), but apart from that she's been innocentish. However she's Nerwen so you never know.

Niiiice. This also screams wolf. Morsul, Mira, WW, and Zil, huh? All of those are easy suspicions who could make an easy bandwaggon. And may I just point out that the three people I think are your packmates happen to be in your "either" category, and that you are rather flip-floppy on Sally and Greenie, and have no opinion on Glirdy?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Back from Alice in Wonderland to... Alirin in Wonderland. Okay, let's see...

This looks to me a lot like a wolf preparing to leap on an easy victim (or turn on a packmate, whatever), then hastily going into damage control mode when it doesn't work out.
I have actually noticed that earlier too, just before I have left. I am keeping it in the back of my head, though my thoughts about sally are not particularly clear at the moment.

Sally demands an explanation for this suspicion crap. Like, seriously?

I'll explain the thing with Morsul and Shasta though, because I can see how you would be confused. I suspected Morsul already and had been planning to say something about it, so when Shasta did as well I was like "Look, yay, support, I'm not crazy". Then Shasta says he realized Morsul was kidding (yeah, because NO ONE has every hidden behind jokes before, oh noes, never) and I thought it was strange because for pity's sake, that was a quick flip flop and quite the lame excuse. So then I made it clear that I suspected Morsul anyway, 'cause I hadn't been following Shasta in the first place, he just happened to post first.


Oh, and did no one see that I'd been suspecting Lottie from the beginning? Sure, Legate can say he started the trend but I said "Something's not right with her" well toward the beginning of the Day. (Yes, I know, I was clearly wrong, but that's not the point.) And I never went toward a "Save Lottie she's innocent" point of view. The only thing I said that could be read like that was that I wanted to not kill her on Day One (AGAIN) and that I thought there were better candidates.



Really, this is ridiculous. I think you've all been putting things in your tea.

But this sounds a rather too over-the-top defensive thing and somehow, the defense sounds just fabricated. That didn't help you at least in my eyes, sally. But whatever...

I am sure I had several more important things to say, but as I did not happen to quote them, I apparently forgot them. Okay, one of them was that I don't have any idea about Glirdan, and he does not seem suspicious to me (or suspicious enough to suspect him, if you get my meaning) as he does to many other people. Otherwise... something of Zil's replies made me think that he would be a lot more aggressive if he were a Wolf, on the other hand maybe he just doesn't want to retaliate on me as it would be dangerous for him... but anyway, I am still unsure about him. And yes, one last thing was probably Brinn, whose answer did not convince me about that there were not ulterior motives in not mentioning (nobody said she'd have to look at it herself, but she could have proposed it) looking at the bandwagon she was in (for more details to get a clear idea about what I mean by this look at one of my first posts toDay).

EDIT: x-ed with about ten posts since WW

[Aganzir]

First of all, the *is sad about Boro's death* line just screams wolf.
Oh. I'm sorry. It was intended to scream somebody who likes Boro and is happy to play with him for the first time in a year and doesn't approve of him getting killed after just one day.

Mostly you seemed to be calling for dumping retractables and my/Mira's death. The retractables issue wasn't that helpful, as it's something people didn't really get behind or hate, so it made you seem like you were contributing when you really weren't helping all that much.
Yeah because I suspected Mira. Correct me if I'm wrong but although I also suspected you, I don't think I was ever calling for your death.
And because people didn't have an opinion about what I said, I wasn't being helpful? I wasn't contributing but tried to look as if I were? Sorry but that's ridiculous.

Don't worry; proper analysis to follow.
I doubt it. You've already decided I'm a wolf.

And I haven't talked to him at all about Downers. We've talked about general game play, but not specifics.
Okay in that case I really wonder what to make of his comment, and I might vote for him because of it.

[wintywinty]

If Lottie was not the sherriff, then the real sherriff we tell everyone that they are the sheriff, rather than her. Only two people have not posted since Lottie made the statement that she was the other sheriff, and they are Greenie and Glirdan. Therefore, either Lottie is definitely telling the truth and was the sheriff, or Greenie/Glirdan was the other sheriff, and if they do not say they are the next time they post, Lottie's statement must be true, and we can assume that everything she says in the best interest of the villagers.

[wintywinty]

GUILTY
winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly.


Ok, I admit, my first vote was a newbie mistake; I have not played this game online before, and I did not want to admit my mistake (I hate being wrong, Lottie can attest to that.), which was my reason for saying that about Brinn.

[Mirandir]

How about you first explain to me...

...why his vote is more suspicious because it could go either way? That was my main issue about your post, not the fact that you defended Fea.
Do you also want me to explain again why I suspected Morsul more than Lottie?

Oh and do you have any other reason to consider voting for me but that I suspect you?


That was really me floundering for something to contribute than anything else. And no, I got the Morsul thing, and so far you suspicion is really the only reason I'm considering voting for you. I could look for more basis if you'd like. :p

[Loslote]

I am sure I had several more important things to say, but as I did not happen to quote them, I apparently forgot them. Okay, one of them was that I don't have any idea about Glirdan, and he does not seem suspicious to me (or suspicious enough to suspect him, if you get my meaning) as he does to many other people. Otherwise... something of Zil's replies made me think that he would be a lot more aggressive if he were a Wolf, on the other hand maybe he just doesn't want to retaliate on me as it would be dangerous for him... but anyway, I am still unsure about him. And yes, one last thing was probably Brinn, whose answer did not convince me about that there were not ulterior motives in not mentioning (nobody said she'd have to look at it herself, but she could have proposed it) looking at the bandwagon she was in (for more details to get a clear idea about what I mean by this look at one of my first posts toDay).

Inzilawolf is usually either way more agressive or way more agreeable as a wolf, depending on the context. In this game he's somewhat defensive and even a little detached, which makes me think he's innocent (and probably an ordo).

Oh. I'm sorry. It was intended to scream somebody who likes Boro and is happy to play with him for the first time in a year and doesn't approve of him getting killed after just one day.

Okay, this makes sense...but what it does, in my opinion, is scream somebody who wants to act like they would never have Night-killed Boro.

Yeah because I suspected Mira. Correct me if I'm wrong but although I also suspected you, I don't think I was ever calling for your death.
And because people didn't have an opinion about what I said, I wasn't being helpful? I wasn't contributing but tried to look as if I were? Sorry but that's ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous; it's something a wolf would do, because it seriously helps their image while keeping them out of excessive danger.

I doubt it. You've already decided I'm a wolf.

Yeah, I have, but I can't lynch you all on my lonesome - other villagers have to suspect you, too, and they're not going to blindly follow me without any explanation. ;)

EDIT: xed with people

[A Little Green]

Phew. Here at last, been running all day and now it's getting late again. I so wish the Day and Night phases were the other way round... So if I seem to be over-reacting (I fear I am) it's because I'm tired. This will be a mostly self-defensive post. The next one will include something rather more relevant to the game, I hope.
So then, Greenie. Her vote post was apologetic, she voted when I was starting to lead the votes (prime bandwaggon spot) and claimed not to have any real reason. If there is a wolf among these four, and I think there is, I'd bet it's Greenie. Seriously, I know being annoyed won't exactly help a thing, but I can't but be a tad annoyed. What, exactly, are your reasons for suspecting me? I suspected you yesterDay and happened to get the internet after Lommy (we're using the same one) so I voted you only after some others had done that already. That, I suppose, made my vote bandwaggonish. I had a reason to suspect you, I didn't have reason to suspect anyone else, so I voted you. Simple as that. And I think I had voiced my suspicion of you before the bandwagon against you had even started, so you can't claim my vote was just jumping on the bandwagon. As for the apologetic tone of my vote post, I was being honest. It did pop into my mind that I might be pursuing what would turn out a typical Day 1 easy lynch. I made the mistake of saying it aloud – if I had just played more confident than I was no one would have made such a fuss about my vote. Give me better arguments, please.
votes Lottie (3rd vote) with what she knows is outrageously bad reasoningNot quite! Outrageously bad phrasing, more like. The outrageously bad had to do with that I was kind of worried about a typical easy Day 1 lynch, but still wanted to vote for Lottie who I suspected. My reasons for voting Lottie, while not all that great, were still substantial by Day 1 standards.

EDIT: eurgh x-ed with a horse (hehe what a typo, was supposed to write 'horde' :D)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay in that case I really wonder what to make of his comment, and I might vote for him because of it.

I am not sure if I will be taking such drastic measures right now, especially as I am not used to vote people based on just two or three posts with almost no content (but in this case I wouldn't be probably given much of a choice), nevertheless, it really makes me raise my eyebrows. So, ww - was your comment about Brinn something random, or where did it come from? (From Night talks to simply having to have an excuse, I'll be fine with any answer you provide ;) Just it would be nice to see you a bit more engaged in the dialogue when somebody is actually asking you something or talking about you, that's how we mostly do things around here.)

Otherwise... I am really thinking whether Lottie is not a bit too over the top with suspecting Agan, it's happened to me too a few times (one time I remember in particular when I went punctually through all somebody's posts, pointed wonderful totally 100% proofs of his wolfishness, then we lynched him and he was innocent. And I got lynched the next Day. Of course, Lottie doesn't need to worry about that... anyway, it was supposed to say that zeal needs to cool down also once in a while to see things straight). I don't see anything bad on Agan this far... (if she is a Wolf, like so many times, I will end up kicking myself, but at least it won't be any change from the norm.)

Methinks me make myself a list, then vote and go to sleep. (Though beware of Nogrod, my friends, he returned from cinema with us and he's apparently reading the thread and writing something frumiously long... I'm sort of expecting it to pop up at any moment.)

EDIT: x-ed with one WW, M, L and LG

[wintywinty]

I am not sure if I will be taking such drastic measures right now, especially as I am not used to vote people based on just two or three posts with almost no content (but in this case I wouldn't be probably given much of a choice), nevertheless, it really makes me raise my eyebrows. So, ww - was your comment about Brinn something random, or where did it come from? (From Night talks to simply having to have an excuse, I'll be fine with any answer you provide ;) Just it would be nice to see you a bit more engaged in the dialogue when somebody is actually asking you something or talking about you, that's how we mostly do things around here.)

I responded to what Agan was saying.

[Loslote]

Give me better arguments, please.
Not quite! Outrageously bad phrasing, more like. The outrageously bad had to do with that I was kind of worried about a typical easy Day 1 lynch, but still wanted to vote for Lottie who I suspected. My reasons for voting Lottie, while not all that great, were still substantial by Day 1 standards.

Eurgh. Sorry. My concentration is poor today. :o

I know this reasoning is outrageously bad, but I'll tell it anyway because it's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of afraid that Lottie will become this typical Day 1 easy lynch (ordo), but then again, she's the only one I have any valid point at all, so

[*highlight]++ Lottie[/highlight*]

Oh, so not outrageously bad reasoning? :confused:;)

[wintywinty]

If Lottie was not the sherriff, then the real sherriff we tell everyone that they are the sheriff, rather than her. Only two people have not posted since Lottie made the statement that she was the other sheriff, and they are Greenie and Glirdan. Therefore, either Lottie is definitely telling the truth and was the sheriff, or Greenie/Glirdan was the other sheriff, and if they do not say they are the next time they post, Lottie's statement must be true, and we can assume that everything she says in the best interest of the villagers.

Greenie posted, and did not say they were the other sherriff. Therefore, either Lottie's claim is true and we accept that she is innocent, or Glirdan is the other sheriff.

[Nienna]

I agree with Legate about Lottie and Agan. It seems like an innocent on innocent that I've seen pop up in other games. I'll need to take a closer look at Agan but since she's been one of the more prolific posters it may take awhile.

Edit: x-ed

[A Little Green]

Eurgh. Sorry. My concentration is poor today.

I know this reasoning is outrageously bad, but I'll tell it anyway because it's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of afraid that Lottie will become this typical Day 1 easy lynch (ordo), but then again, she's the only one I have any valid point at all, so

[*highlight]++ Lottie[/highlight*]
Oh, so not outrageously bad reasoning?Yeah. I was referring to the reasoning that I'm afraid of a typical Day 1 easy lynch but still vote for you. My actual reasoning for suspecting you wasn't outrageously bad. If I still can't make this understood, I suppose I must blame being a non-native speaker for not being able to explain myself.
Unless I missed something, I wouldn't call not liking gut feelings a valid point.You did miss something. It was that she called every point she had a gut-feeling, also those that were actual reasoned points and not gut-feelings - which struck me as horribly fishy. But really, discussing this is not fruitful as far as I can see.

Now to write some actual substance. I'm sick of talking about myself. :p

[Glirdan]

Gah! Sorry I haven't been on at all today, haven't been home at all since yesterday morning and I'm just getting in now and have only been able to check up on who was killed and I am sad to see Boro gone. I am going to go back and read through things now.

EDIT: Xed with Greenie

[Loslote]

Yeah. I was referring to the reasoning that I'm afraid of a typical Day 1 easy lynch but still vote for you. My actual reasoning for suspecting you wasn't outrageously bad. If I still can't make this understood, I suppose I must blame being a non-native speaker for not being able to explain myself.

No, I get what you mean now.

[A Little Green]

I was pretty confident at that point that Lottie was innocent and was willing to vote for mostly anyone to save her.Okay, but why were you pretty confident about her?
and if they do not say they are the next time they post, Lottie's statement must be true, and we can assume that everything she says in the best interest of the villagers.Yes, I think we can rather safely assume that Lottie has the village's best interests at heart. But she is not the seer. She doesn't know anybody's role and can be as wrong as any of us.

Eurgh I had some other quotes I wanted to comment on but it seems I've lost them. Off to write a list and then vote. I'll probably be suspected for voting out of the blue this time (:rolleyes:) because I don't have much of an idea until I've looked at the list of villagers and considered each one in turn.

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy and Lottie

[Loslote]

Gah! Sorry I haven't been on at all today, haven't been home at all since yesterday morning and I'm just getting in now and have only been able to check up on who was killed and I am sad to see Boro gone. I am going to go back and read through things now.

Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.

[wintywinty]

Everyone has now posted after Lottie's claim of being the sherriff, and none have refuted, therefore Lottie was the other sherriff, is innocent, and can definitely be trusted.

[A Little Green]

No, I get what you mean now.Ok, great. :) Really, I'm sorry if I've sounded cross, I'm just very very tired and it's very very late and I've been up since rather early morning. :(

[Nienna]

Okay, but why were you pretty confident about her?


I was confident about her for a few reasons. Boro's trust in her was adamant in a way that would be way too risky for wolves. She also started making sense and sounding confident and innocent.

Edit: x-ed

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A list...

'TWAS BRILIG:
Isabellkya – sounds more or less sensible in general, no reason to suspect right now
Agan – not suspicious this far, makes an effort and sounds, how to say it, "balanced" enough... okay, now I am starting to worry as I type this... but no, no, mustn't give in to paranoia. Leaving out of suspicion for now.
Lottie – Shiriff, apparently
Nerwen – no reason to suspect, looks innocent-ish this far
Lommy – there were a few moments when I have been slightly worried, but generally looks like innocent Lommie. I somewhat miss the flip-flopping though... ;)

IN UFFISH THOUGHT HE STOOD:
Glirdan – like I said, I don't find him any suspicious in particular. Not innocent either, but...
Nogrod – Nogrod is hard to work with even if you saw more from him than his smile... what more to say.
Mira – I have to admit I don't have paid very good attention to her this far, at least she didn't do anything eyebrow-raising which I would notice and it made me jump off my chair or something.
Shasta – more or less nothing special
Morsul – hard to say, but some of his reactions were innocent Morsul-ish, so he's in the better half this far
Nienna – not much reading on her, there were a few things she said which looked sensible and genuine. I admit I haven't been focusing well enough on her.
Skip – now this guy could be - I have just such a funny feeling - a quite brilliantly doing newbie Wolf. (I can imagine how happy Agan would be if the two of them were Wolves.) Nevertheless, his generally reasonable behavior and all that make me just see him as a brilliantly doing innocent. This far I don't have any proofs of fishiness in his behavior. I'm sort of thinking that if he was, it would show sooner or later.
Greenie – hasn't posted much, like I said, if I were to point at one person from the Lottie wagon and say it's a Wolf, I'd probably choose her, but still, there's not enough for me to read her.

BEWARE THE JABBERWOCK:
Inzil – after seeing him react and taking Lottie's word, I could give him a pass at least for toDay. Watchful eye, though.
Wintywinty – there's been very little input from him and the very little input was not very positive. (But thanks for replying anyway, that clears things a bit.) I'd like to see more input, however, just to be able to actually make a better judgement.
Sally – I find many of the points which have been brought against her as having quite some grounds, and her self-defense didn't help much to convince me otherwise, rather a bit to the opposite. Questionable, at least.
Brinniel – worrying, she's been under my watchful eye and continues to be so.

Note please that the borders of the cathegories can be somewhat hazy and are very general. However I will likely be picking my vote from among the lowest part toDay.

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Loslote]

Ok, great. :) Really, I'm sorry if I've sounded cross, I'm just very very tired and it's very very late and I've been up since rather early morning. :(

Not at all. And I'm sorry I'm trying to get you lynched, I just happen to think you're evil. ;)

EDIT: xed since the post I quoted

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading.

*opens Notepad and prepares to respond on... everything :p*

[Inziladun]

Yes but what was so suspicious about the Lottie-wagon in the first place? You just decided it was fishy but when looking at the Lottie-voters, none of them was suspicious enough to receive your vote. Usually people and their reasons for voting make a bandwagon suspicious, not the other way round.

The push to lynch Lottie looked foul to me because I didn't think she looked evil, and it had all the hallmarks of a wolvish attempt to railroad an innocent. I'm not going through again why I voted the way I did.

By itself it's not, but I think it's far more likely that the wolves use their retraction to kill an innocent than the other way round. Yeah I know they can be useful to the innocents too, but their benefit for the wolves is more imminent.

That's not a good enough reason to throw away our retractables.

I don't like that comment. I wasn't planning to do it, but that looks too much like a threat. Yeah yeah I might be totally overestimating how important the wolves consider the retrackies, but still.

A threat? No. But more evidence to point toward your lupinity, my dear, if you start trying to use that as a reason so-and-so is evil.

I also really disliked Zil's vote for me. If he could explain that too, I'd appreciate it.

Sorry. Can't do it. I'm tired of clubbing that particular dead horse.

x'd with all since # 316

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I responded to what Agan was saying.
Thanks, already noticed that...
I agree with Legate about Lottie and Agan. It seems like an innocent on innocent that I've seen pop up in other games.
Noting this down in case Agan turns out to be a Wolf... ;)

Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.

Come on! Lottie, you may be a known innocent, but you are overdoing it. Not that I am saying you should not use your time as one with proper zeal, as being partial won't accomplish anything, but this of all things is not a reason for suspicion. Innocents are known to do that too, and on the other hand many Wolves know by now that it does not help them. The reaction can be genuine, so what... (okay, Glirdy's sounding maybe a bit more likely to be forced to me, but that's only because I am sure that Agan probably really is sad about not being able to play with Boro longer - which however does not speak neither for her being a Wolf nor for her being an innocent.)

EDIT: x-ed since my last... that's some two posts at the previous page and Inzil here

[Inziladun]

That was really me floundering for something to contribute than anything else. And no, I got the Morsul thing, and so far you suspicion is really the only reason I'm considering voting for you. I could look for more basis if you'd like. :p

That's quite interesting. Floundering for something to contribute?

[A Little Green]

Glirdan – Hmm. I have no read on him myself, others have brought up good points against him, though, but I'd have to investigate myself to form an opinion.

Nogrod – Usually, at this point of the game, I'm convinced he's a wolf. This far I guess he's never been one when we've played together. So now I'm wondering if I should get worried as I've found no reason to suspect him... :rolleyes:

Wintywinty – Too little to go on with.

Isabellkya – From what I remember of her she's been making sense and passing unnoticed. I have no reason to suspect her, but she alarms me a little because of being so smooth and sensible.

Mira – Feels innocent though I disagree with her a lot.

Sally – Her behaviour yesterDay around the voting, concerning Lottie, was weird. Other than that, she's been the usual hard-to-read Sally.

Agan – Seems genuine and makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying she's innocent - I know how capable she is of fooling me - but I won't be voting her without a good reason.

Inzil – No effing idea.

Shasta – The reasoning for his vote was rather bad, could be even wolvish - I was a little (green) suspected at that point I think but not much, so voting for me would have been rather ideal: not rubbing people the wrong way, yet not bandwaggoning either. Otherwise he has flown under my radar.

Lottie – I believe her claim though I disagree with her about almost everything. :p

Nerwen – No idea.

Legate – Seems innocentish this far.

Morsul – No idea.

Nienna – Hmm. Not sure. At times she feels very genuine, at others she feels like a sneaky wolf. Can't say which she is.

Skip – Seems maybe the most innocentish at this point (discounting Lottie and myself, of course), makes sense and feels genuine.

Lommy – Has dropped the mysterious attitude and feels more or less like her innocent self.

Brinniel – I'm leaning towards thinking her innocent. Her reactions seem genuine to me.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The push to lynch Lottie looked foul to me because I didn't think she looked evil, and it had all the hallmarks of a wolvish attempt to railroad an innocent. I'm not going through again why I voted the way I did.

Well just when I was hoping to let it be... okay, I'd also like to see Zil just posting things orientated more to the present than to the past, but just this... once again, at least from yesterDay I didn't get the feeling that the bandwaggon would look "foul" to you, you were not at least violently protesting against it. You seemed more like "I don't want to be part of that", but not saying much more, therefore sort of implying "I don't want ot be part of that, but if others are determined to lynch her, I don't mind" (I am not saying you said that, but that's sort of logical conclusion stemming from what you said, the blank space you left), which is inconsistent with the picture you seem to be trying to give, that you actually were against it. That's the difference and that's actually quite well enough phrasing my main point against you. Well, whatever (I don't require you to bother yourself with replying this again, Zil, as this is again just repetition...). I am going to decide about my vote and sleep then.

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

You guys make outrageously long posts! (and I seem to be extra-slow toDay)

I have only gotten even with the thread now.

So we have a more or less known innocent crusader running amok? And those suspected are naturally annoyed by it, whatever their role is.

But yes, interesting points as well. Needs to do some thinking...

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[wintywinty]

Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.

When analyzing his posts before you said this, I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Glirdan]

Lottie just lost the game.

Thanks, now I just lost...for the first time in like months!! >_<


Maybe Lottie is the other Sherriff? Boro switched votes to save her?

This is a really valid point, one that I think all should keep in mind while voting. Why else would Boro have switched his vote last minute? To save someone he believed to be innocent or to save someone he knew was innocent? It would also explain his vote post yesterDay:


I'm sorry hun, if you're innocent. Duty is forcing me to make this choice.

A cryptic message meant only for an innocent Lottie? But if that is the case, perhaps it is the reason why the Wolves went after him. It is quite possible that one of them picked up on it and thus we end up with this post from Lottie:


*sobs, wails, curls up in a corner and cries until rivers of tears flow and drown out her anguished screams*

This is to say, yeah, I'm the other Shirriff...and I'm seriously ticked.

Personally speaking, I am willing to accept this claim as everything adds up (as in Boro's demand for her to stay and him voting Fea, whom he is close with, instead to save his fellow Shirriff's life).

Lottie brings up a rather interesting point here about Sally:


This is actually agreeing with Shasta's misreading. Just thought I'd point that out. She's not so much reading and forming impressions that other people are confirming; she's bandwaggoning.

After going through Lottie's anaysils (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626958&postcount=239)of Sally, it does seem as if she (that is to say Sally) just seems to be jumping onto other people's suspicions and piggybacking her way through and not forming any of her own idea's. Hmmmm.....


(Another is Legate, btw. Hmm...who voted him? Oh, right. Glirdy and Sally. Wait a minute! ... )

Correction: I voted Shasta

Which brings me to the end of page 6.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Conclusions

Lottie is most definitely innocent.

Sally is really starting to look bad in my eyes. Will form a fully solid opinion once I have thoroughly gone through the other pages and have caught up.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FYI, I'm going to be going by page because I don't want this post to take up an entire page. That and I have a terrible attention span so this gives me the chance to step away from the computer momentarily to get my focus back. In other words, I'll be back with another post shortly.

EDIT: Xed since last post....

[A Little Green]

Not at all. And I'm sorry I'm trying to get you lynched, I just happen to think you're evil.I sincerely hope that you will not succeed in your attempt. :p Talking about getting people lynched, I'd be interested to know who people are going to vote. I want to go to bed as soon as possible, but I'd like to hear some more opinions before voting..

EDIT: x-ed with Noggy, Winty & Glirdy

[A Little Green]

Eurgh. I'm starting to see why Glirdy is suspected. I didn't like that long post of his at all. Or, it was long, but it included mainly suspicion on one of the village's top suspects and confirming innocent a person everyone's been considering innocent pretty much all Day. He could be an innocent who just suspects the same person as everyone else, but I didn't like the tone of that post.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ha, just when I was about to remark that we still have to wait for the grin to appear with a long book...

Well! I am feeling slightly tired, but I'd like to wait for that, at least. At least to read it... means maybe I might ponder my vote for about a short while yet.

But in general, thinking Inzil, WW, Brinn and Sally... well, Inzil is a possibility, but I'd like to give him a chance, to see at least one more Day from him and then decide. WW is more or less something similar, and however maybe voting him would be the sort of "easiest" for me, it's sort of against my inner jabberwocky to vote a newbie even on Day 2 if it's on such weak grounds (by weak grounds meaning not the seriousness of my suspicion or things like that, but simply the fact that there were very few posts from him in total). Sally would be an option, and also there seems there are other people suspecting her, so if I wanted to pick according to who of my suspects is most likely to be lynched, I could go with her. Brinn is something in between, the problem is that she's not around much and I did not have the chance to "meet" with her much, in the sense, I'm around when she's not around and vice versa and it would be nice to see her respond to the fact that she's being suspected (something similar goes with sally as well, though sally at least has been responding to people about it). Okay... pondering, let's see if the Cat posts, and then I just vote and go... (I guess that's a sentence I have been saying a lot around here...)

EDIT: x-ed since Nogcat

[wintywinty]

Right now, I have narrowed down the twp possible people I am going to vote for to either Glirdy, or Sally. Glirdy and Sally seem to me as being the most suspicous thus far.

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Oh, FYI.
I'd like to hear some more opinions before voting..
Aganzir will / would vote for Inzil.

Her internet connection died and she sent me an sms which I then PM'd to Wilwa. It's up to her, whether she accepts that kind of vote.

(~~~) *grin appearing*

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Eurgh. I'm starting to see why Glirdy is suspected. I didn't like that long post of his at all. Or, it was long, but it included mainly suspicion on one of the village's top suspects and confirming innocent a person everyone's been considering innocent pretty much all Day. He could be an innocent who just suspects the same person as everyone else, but I didn't like the tone of that post.
Well I was sort of wondering at first too, but then it was apparently only about the first page of toDay. Still... well, let's see where it goes. (I don't think I'll be here for when he reaches the last page, though. So probably leaving it out...)

Right now, I have narrowed down the twp possible people I am going to vote for to either Glirdy, or Sally. Glirdy and Sally seem to me as being the most suspicous thus far.

However this is basically going along with the wind which blows in the village. Glirdan and sally = people who are definitely going to be voted by many. Not sure whether not to beat my inner jabberwocky (see post above) and just go with it. :rolleyes:

[Nienna]

Agan: Day One

37 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626664&postcount=37): Doesn’t want to die early because she hasn’t played in a while, laugh’s at Fea, wonder’s why Fea’s vote bothers Shasta, Brinn speaks sense, lets WinWin know that editing isn’t cool, suspects Nerwen for pointing out that WinWin could have a pack telling him what to do, gives advice to the Seer about being sure about people, comments on wolf voting and mentions that wolves can vote however they want to

55 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626711&postcount=55): Comments on Morsul’s flimsy reasoning for suspecting Fea and WinWin, discusses retractables and how everyone should use them right away, lets Nerwen know that she thinks that newbie v. newbie wolf debate isn’t a problem yet as we don’t have enough info to go on, comments to Nerwen that she’s pushing WinWin’s newbieness too hard, thinks we should vote for the most suspicious person regardless of whether we think they are the cobbler or a wolf. Thinks with Zil that maybe WinWin’s vote because he used a character name was a joke, wonders what Mira’s conclusion was regarding WinWin’s newbieness

62 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626718&postcount=62): A list: Suspicious – Mira for suspecting a newbie which is too easy, Morsul for his reasoning, and Lottie for a random analysis of Glirdy who hadn’t posted anything but IC banter. She comments on a few things Nog said about her Seer advice, will most likely vote for Mira or Morsul

65 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626722&postcount=65): Thinks Greenie now sounds innocent because they agree on things

78 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626736&postcount=78): Replies to Legate about Morsul and how she may still vote for him even if he is being “classical Morsul”, thinks Greenie, Legate, and Lommy have a good point about Lottie and may vote her but is unsure because she doesn’t know her playing style

80 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626738&postcount=80): Reminding that seer-dreamt ordos may not necessarily be innocent, Izzy seems innocent

88 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626749&postcount=88): Tells Morsul why she finds him suspicious, votes Mira because she seems the most suspicious, retracts and votes again because she doesn’t like retractables

93 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626755&postcount=93): Vote count and she mentions how she thinks we should keep track of who’s used their retracts

110 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626776&postcount=110): Defends why she doesn’t like retractable votes, defends her vote for Mira, defends the retractables yet again

In conclusion after Day One: she seems to be making sense. I don’t love her reasoning for voting Mira but reasoning on Day One’s are never that good. She seems pretty innocent so far so I’m not really sure what has made Lottie so gung-ho but we’ll see after the analysis of her posts today.

Edit: x-ed

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Okay.

I'm not going to restate all the points raised thus far. I think there are fair points raised against Sally and Inzil, and to a lesser degree on Glirdy and Brinn.

I tend to think Agan and Greenie more innocentish than not.

Skip and Izzy feel good.

Well that was original... :rolleyes:

I'll plunge into the thread to check a few things that bother me. But I'll be around for any discussion (checking the latest posting every now and then).

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[wintywinty]

However this is basically going along with the wind which blows in the village. Glirdan and sally = people who are definitely going to be voted by many. Not sure whether not to beat my inner jabberwocky (see post above) and just go with it. :rolleyes:

Would it have been more appeasing to you if I had said I suspected someone noone else did? Those two I mentioned have by far been the ones who have said the most suspicious things.

[Glirdan]

Address some things before I go on:


Eurgh. I'm starting to see why Glirdy is suspected. I didn't like that long post of his at all. Or, it was long, but it included mainly suspicion on one of the village's top suspects and confirming innocent a person everyone's been considering innocent pretty much all Day. He could be an innocent who just suspects the same person as everyone else, but I didn't like the tone of that post.

Would you rather me just come back on and start spewing utter nonsense seeing as I have been absent for most of the Day? I'm just trying to get caught up, but if that makes me suspicious in yours, so be it.


Right now, I have narrowed down the twp possible people I am going to vote for to either Glirdy, or Sally. Glirdy and Sally seem to me as being the most suspicous thus far.


Would it have been more appeasing to you if I had said I suspected someone noone else did? Those two I mentioned have by far been the ones who have said the most suspicious things.

Mind explaining those? Because they are rather vague and it just seems to me like you're trying to get by on the tailcoats of others, which happens to be a very Wolfish tactic by the by.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Would it have been more appeasing to you if I had said I suspected someone noone else did? Those two I mentioned have by far been the ones who have said the most suspicious things.

Okay, now we are talking! (Literally, which pleases me.) Well, it wouldn't, if you had good enough reasons for why you are suspecting such a person. That's not to say your reasons to suspect Glirdy or sally might not be valid, it just struck me as a move many Wolves are known to do, to sort of blend with the crowd. Of course on the other hand, if neither of those two is a Wolf, then it would possibly speak in your favor under such circumstances, as you have not mentioned anybody else.

This however brings me back to my original dilemma. If there were flowers out there, I might as well pick one and decide by tearing away the petals: Inzil-Brinn-Sally...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So Feas was a cobbler yay us.

Something that bothers me is that Lottie has been pouncing on her four suspects for "acting too innocent", but misses this completely. Lottie, I realize you're a known innocent, but really? Just because you think you've spotted all four wolves in the first day doesn't mean you stop looking at anyone else and focus solely on those four. For example, several of the points in your "Sal-alysis" are pretty clearly grasping at straws.

I honestly agree with this quote by Agan:

Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.


I think you'd be a great help to the village if you'd take off your wolf-colored glasses. :p

You missed this quote of Lommy's back in #251:

At least this: please people, don't mislead yourselves by concluding I must be more innocent than Legate or Greenie because of the placement of my vote. I think we would all have voted Lottie, whatever the order of our votes, but I just happened to decide to go to sleep first.


But anyway.

I've already explained why I voted the way I did. I've no intention of staying on the defensive all this Day, as I had to yesterDay.

Really? I didn't feel like you were ever a major candidate for the lynch... so why did you "have" to stay on the defensive?

However Sally is quite smart whether or not I agree with her. I don't think she'd read my sarcasm as anything but, also she says she wanted to try and get me lynched but "no one would go for that" She admits trying to start a Bandwagon.


Lottie has been doing the same thing and she's a confirmed innocent. In fact, she about said the exact same thing. I notice as well that there was a rather large amount of Sally suspicion before your post... so to me this looks a lot like a wolf trying to be the first vote on a wagon in order to look better.

And ha, Nienna thinks the same.

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.


So, I have to vote now– I may change it later, but I can't risk missing the DL again.

++Sally

Now, I think that's the third vote on Sallymouse, which I guess makes it officially a bandwagon.

That was actually the second vote, and the way you said "oh well, guess it's a bandwagon now" kind of bothers me, not gonna lie.


Zil says this in #276:

That said, you aren't the Seer, Lottie, so you may not be right about all your suspects.


...but then goes on to (seemingly) only consider Lottie's four suspects. Odd, that.


Though if you choose to simply focus on me, you'll find that it'll get you nowhere.

Doth I detect a challenge? :p

Haha, Agan agrees about Morsul too.

I don't like Morsul's vote. It doesn't seem genuine, it looks as if he was intentionally trying to come up with reasons to vote for her. Okay Nienna phrased it better than me, I basically agree with her.



But this sounds a rather too over-the-top defensive thing and somehow, the defense sounds just fabricated. That didn't help you at least in my eyes, sally. But whatever...


I disagree. I've been a frustrated innocent before (right, guys? *waves crossbow*) and honestly, Sally had just come back to two votes and a bucketload of suspicion. I'd probably be frustrated too.


That was really me floundering for something to contribute than anything else.

Here's another quote that bothers me - you were looking for something to say that would make you seem more helpful?


I will say, after Greenie's #304, that my suspicion of her has lessened. Her defense of her vote seemed innocent to me.


Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill.

More straws. One - this is a themed game. Two - why not be sad to see a fellow innocent gone? I don't agree with this reasoning and never have.


Hee hee. Legate agrees.

Come on! Lottie, you may be a known innocent, but you are overdoing it. Not that I am saying you should not use your time as one with proper zeal, as being partial won't accomplish anything, but this of all things is not a reason for suspicion. Innocents are known to do that too, and on the other hand many Wolves know by now that it does not help them. The reaction can be genuine, so what...


...And Zil agrees with what I said about Mira

That's quite interesting. Floundering for something to contribute?

Stop stealing my thoughts, people! :(


Shasta – The reasoning for his vote was rather bad, could be even wolvish - I was a little (green) suspected at that point I think but not much, so voting for me would have been rather ideal: not rubbing people the wrong way, yet not bandwaggoning either. Otherwise he has flown under my radar.


This bugs me. You say my reasoning is bad, but don't explain why.


Sally is really starting to look bad in my eyes. Will form a fully solid opinion once I have thoroughly gone through the other pages and have caught up.


This really bothers me too. I didn't have much of a read on Glirdan yet, but the tone of that remark was definitely bandwagonnish (especially since Sally seems to be the D2 easy lynch).


...and Greenie agrees.

Eurgh. I'm starting to see why Glirdy is suspected. I didn't like that long post of his at all. Or, it was long, but it included mainly suspicion on one of the village's top suspects and confirming innocent a person everyone's been considering innocent pretty much all Day. He could be an innocent who just suspects the same person as everyone else, but I didn't like the tone of that post.
__________________



Right now, I have narrowed down the twp possible people I am going to vote for to either Glirdy, or Sally. Glirdy and Sally seem to me as being the most suspicous thus far.

Winty, do you think you could maybe say why you think that? Because as of right now it looks like you're just sheeping Lottie.

[Loslote]

*removed smilies*

Yay!! It's time to hunt for the Wolvsies and have some tea!! Speaking of tea...Sally would you be so kind as to move your furry little behind into a different pot? That's my homemade blueberry pie with raisins tea you're sleeping in....

Again, forced cheer in being anti-werewolf screams wolf.

I asked you to move, can't say I didn't....Sheez....Doormice...always so stubborn...

As for YOU Ms. Mira March Hare, I do believe you owe me an unbirthday present!! Yours is the tea by the way....If Sally ever decides to move that is.....And please be careful of the china!! I had to solve an extremely difficult riddle that Tweedledum set for me, made all the more difficult as Tweedledee was not there to put in his half of the riddle!

Oh, and Mira, I'm not so sure I agree with you that Fea's entrance was "smashing". YOUR entrance was smashing *looks at broken teacups in slight dismay*. Hers was rather...well...very royal like.....All up in everyone's business without saying anything. The polite thing to do would have to AT LEAST have sat down for a cup of my steeped tea (by the by Sally, I used some of your hair for that tea, hope you don't mind....I cut a slight clump off whilst you were sleeping in the pumpkin seed tea pot...).

As for all this Lottie nonsense....Well, I very much like singing. So I don't see anything THAT particular with her currently....but if she so much as touches my top hat.....

Oh, and Shasta Knave, I hear you don't get fed properly over at that castle....Would you like some tea?? Although take it to go, I don't know how well I'll be able to stand your elongations of the I's.....

Toodles for now, I must be off to get some more horse radish for my horse radish and beets tea!

Xed with Nerwen

Very early list/IC banter; he's already interacting a lot with Sally.

Sorry it took me so long....Those horse radishes were being rather stubborn, stampeding all of the place and trampling my feet.... Sheez...(AKA: Read the Admin thread). And now there are so many people that I don't think I have enough tea Well, we shall make do!! And Sally, what have I said about that tea pot!! Anywhoseits, I shall return again after I have read all these posts.

Banter with Sally again; says he's back.

First off, hello wintywinty and welcome!! Second:

Oh my...he really does seem to be a plain old innocent for this comment....yet Nerwen brings up an excellent point:

He very well could be simply a confused innocent or a really smart wolfywolfy....Currently I'm inclined to believe the first.

And Nerwen's sigh threw me off there too...A sigh of exasperation. Perhaps either because she is exasperated with the newbie thing or perhaps a sigh of exasperation of her fellow packmate?

You would be too if you were as crazy about tea as I am!! Oh, and happy unbirthday!

Nothing about Day 1 is meaningless. What happens on Day 1 is our foundation for what is to happen in the later Days. Yes, most of the posting at the start is purely IC, random and sometimes completely pointless, but not always. There was a game not too long ago that I played where I got Hunter-Killed by a certain someone on Day 1 *coughMORSULcough* and most of that Day's discussion was purely speculation on some of the rules and thus led to the votes that were placed. (Or maybe I'm mixing that up with the game BEFORE it was restarted )

Come on now chica (sorry...just finished performing West Side Story last weekend, Puerto Rican accent still in head), you've played with me before, have you not? It was all IC posting at that point.

Sorry, would have posted more if it weren't for the fact that, as I have mentioned in the Admin thread, a good portion of the Day happens to occur during my sleeping hours and then six hours of schooling (with rehearsals every once in awhile afterwards) so I could not get much in other then IC stuff. By the way, it is a pleasure to play with you for the first time!

Love you too.

As for all of this retracting of the votes this early, I see the points raised on why it we should do it. However, personally, knowing my track record, I'm going to hold onto mine for a Day or two more.

As it stands I am still at a loss of who to suspect and who not to...Lottie kinda stands out for me right now, but that might just be because she thinks I'm a Wolf.

I'm giving Agan a vote pass seeing as it has been a year since she's last played. I'm also giving a vote pass to skip and ww as the newbies to the game....Which leave everyone else.....

Okay, I'm going to go do a little more scrutinizing after I've found something to eat....

Jumps on Nerwen and my points against WW and Nerwen, respectively, explains that Day 1s can be helpful, says he'll keep his retraction for now and says that I stand out as a suspect because I suspect him.

Quickly doing this for everyone:

Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn (please correct me if I'm wrong on this....)
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea

Okay, will be back shortly

Vote count; not much there.

Okay, so I am back and with a slightly clearer (albeit, it's still a little hazed, not gonna lie) view on things.

Nogrod – Cheshire Cat

For some reason I never suspect this guy....Maybe it's just because he always comes across as the level-headed one among us (which is saying something this time around) or maybe it's just a charm he has....Although his vote for Fea has me a little worried. Voting for her simply for initiating the voting for Lottie? What reason is that? The bandwagon for Lottie (at least the voting anyway) did not start until well AFTER she had voted.....Hmmm....

Wintywinty – Tweedledum

Newbie pass

Boro88 – the Caterpillar

No read on him as of yet....Want to vote him but that would just be a retaliation vote

Isabellkya – White Rabbit

Has been rather quiet this time around. Maybe there is something RL that is preventing her from being here, or maybe it is a Wolvish tactic to try and sneak by?

Mira – March Hare

I have no read of my fellow tea patron

Sally – the Dormouse

Seems to be, well, Sally: Confusing and unreadable (and thank you for getting out of the tea pot!) yet I see nothing that indicates Wolvish behavior....yet.

Agan – Queen of Hearts

Giving a pass to her as she hasn't played in a year and I don't want to see her go just yet and has also been making some wonderful contributions to the game.

Inzil – King of Hearts

No read on His Grace

Shasta – Knave of Hearts

His vote for Greenie came out of nowhere and looks to me as if it is a Wolf trying to perhaps save one of his own from being lynched. Yet would a Wolf be so bold?

Lottie – Duchess

I don't know what to make of her....However, last time I played with her, we both were innocent and she got lynched Day 1....after having pinned all three Wolves on Day 1 (The sad thing is it happened to me on Day 2)

Nerwen – the Dodo

Seemed a little too overprotective of winty initially, but that could easily have been her being exasperated with the newbie.

Legate – Jabberwocky

Has definitely been one of the few people talking sense all Day. Yet his vote for Lottie has me a little perplexed. He stated that he did not like all the bandwagon votes and suspicions for her yet he himself later voted her? True he had stated suspicions of her for awhile, but his vote almost seems as if he's making it to ensure her being lynched....Hmmmm....

Morsul – the Mock Turtle

Has seemed very Morsul like....which bugs me....Yet last time I voted him, he ended up being the Hunter and he Hunter killed me....So I think I'm going to leave him be for the time being.

Nienna – White Queen

Seems to be flying under the radar....perhaps a little too much, at least for my liking. Wolvish tactic to stay clear perhaps?

Fea – Red Queen

Her vote for Lottie is the only thing that holds any suspicion for me, yet it could very well be a Cobbler tactic....However, as pointed out earlier, the Cobbler can prove to be our downfall later in the game. Or maybe the vote was simply to be rid of her retractable vote?

Skip – Humpty Dumpty

Also getting a Newbie pass

Lommy – the Gryphon

I have no read on her.

Greenie – White Knight

Her vote for Lottie seems kind of like a bandwagon vote to me.

Brinniel – Tweedledee

Her posts all well thought out and full of substance


Okay, will make a list, will post it in a few and perhaps with my vote as well.

EDIT: Xed with Zil, Boro, Moddess and who knows who else....

First off, I notice that he gives both long-time-away player pass to Agan and then also says she made "wonderful contributions" when he disagrees with her about retractables (which were the main issue).

Also he flip-flops about Legate, saying that he make sense but also that his Lottie-vote was worrysome.

A Vote Update!


Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea
Shasta ----> Greenie
Sally -------> Legate
Nogrod ---> Fea(2)
Zil ----------> Mira(2)

Another vote count...

Not Voting
Winty
Skip
Agan
Brinn
Morsul

Probably Won't Vote
Sally
Nerwen
Boro
Izzy
Mira
Inzil
Nienna
Lommy

Could Vote For
Fea
Lottie
Nogrod
Legate
Greenie
Shasta


By the by, this is not necessarily in order (as in the could vote for, just because Fea is at the top does not mean she's my top suspect)

EDIT: Xed wiht Lottie, Brinn and Izzy

List. He has all three people who could have been lynched in that list. Note that, I'll refer to it again later. He also spreads out Sally, Agan, and Greenie among the three categories. He keeps up Greenie-suspicion throughout but without making any real effort to suspect her.

You know Lottie, I've read you're reasoning of suspecting me and I still don't quite understand it. Could I ask you to clarify?

Asks me to clarify my reasoning.

You trying to *hint* at something here? Perhaps you're fellow packmates? But you know what, I know that you would not do something THAT obvious.

Can you explain to me how and when I have been fraternizing with Greenie and Agan? I have not said two words to either of them. As for Sally, yes, I have fraternized with her, IC, as, if you have read the books, our characters go together.

Edit: Xed since last post

Yeah, I was trying to hint. I couldn't just put Trust: Boro because that would be too obvious and suspicious, so I included Zil and Nog, who I was (and am) fairly certain about.

And perhaps fraternizing is not the right word. "Linked to" might be better...still not quite, though.

Post # 142 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626812&postcount=142) Read there.

And you would know this how? Only way you would be able to know anything about what I would do is if you're a mind-reader.

I knew you wouldn't vote Greenie because I was (and still am) fairly convinced you are packmates, plus you hadn't really put any effort into looking at her or suspecting her - just saying a general "she looks off".

Okay, I'm going to vote.....

[*highlight]++Shasta[/highlight*]

Yes, this will probably end up being a throw-away vote, but I actually do find him a little suspicious. His vote for Greenie came out of absolutely nowhere and really had no substantial backing to it.

Votes Shasta for voting one of the people he said he suspected. He never really looks closely at him, although he (Shasta) does appear in his "might vote" category.

Well, I didn't vote Lottie cuz I actually think the bandwagon for her is ridiculous, I really do. I want to see her stay. She's pretty good at picking out the Wolves, why the get rid of her?

So you don't see why you should get rid of me, but you throw your vote away on someone no one has suspected at all anyway (rather like Sally's Legate vote, which is why I was confused earlier, sorry).

Gah! Sorry I haven't been on at all today, haven't been home at all since yesterday morning and I'm just getting in now and have only been able to check up on who was killed and I am sad to see Boro gone. I am going to go back and read through things now.

EDIT: Xed with Greenie

Like I have said, the "I am sad to see Boro gone" line looks forcedly pro-village.

Conclusions: Glirdy looks very wolfly.

Pre-edit: I will have xed since Legate.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As of right this second, I'm thinking of voting Morsul or Zil.

Also, where is Izzy?

[Nogrod]

Would it have been more appeasing to you if...

Would you rather me just...

Interesting...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

*removed smilies*



Again, forced cheer in being anti-werewolf screams wolf.



Very early list/IC banter; he's already interacting a lot with Sally.



Banter with Sally again; says he's back.



Jumps on Nerwen and my points against WW and Nerwen, respectively, explains that Day 1s can be helpful, says he'll keep his retraction for now and says that I stand out as a suspect because I suspect him.



Vote count; not much there.



First off, I notice that he gives both long-time-away player pass to Agan and then also says she made "wonderful contributions" when he disagrees with her about retractables (which were the main issue).

Also he flip-flops about Legate, saying that he make sense but also that his Lottie-vote was worrysome.



Another vote count...



List. He has all three people who could have been lynched in that list. Note that, I'll refer to it again later. He also spreads out Sally, Agan, and Greenie among the three categories. He keeps up Greenie-suspicion throughout but without making any real effort to suspect her.



Asks me to clarify my reasoning.



Yeah, I was trying to hint. I couldn't just put Trust: Boro because that would be too obvious and suspicious, so I included Zil and Nog, who I was (and am) fairly certain about.

And perhaps fraternizing is not the right word. "Linked to" might be better...still not quite, though.



I knew you wouldn't vote Greenie because I was (and still am) fairly convinced you are packmates, plus you hadn't really put any effort into looking at her or suspecting her - just saying a general "she looks off".



Votes Shasta for voting one of the people he said he suspected. He never really looks closely at him, although he (Shasta) does appear in his "might vote" category.



So you don't see why you should get rid of me, but you throw your vote away on someone no one has suspected at all anyway (rather like Sally's Legate vote, which is why I was confused earlier, sorry).



Like I have said, the "I am sad to see Boro gone" line looks forcedly pro-village.

Conclusions: Glirdy looks very wolfly.

Pre-edit: I will have xed since Legate.


And again, Lottie, some of these points just plain stink. IC banter? Saying "I'm sad to see Boro gone?" I'm also noticing that all of your suspicions are reliant on all four being wolves; i.e. if you're wrong about one, you don't have much reasoning for the other three.

[satansaloser2005]

And of course people try to lynch me on the Day that I can't be around for much longer. I think it's some sort of conspiracy. *grumbles*

As noted, I don't have a lot of time, or at least a lot of time to be particularly loquacious. I'll give thoughts on everyone and if anyone has questions I'll answer them. How's that work? After all, if I'm to be viciously cut down in the prime of my life, I may as well offer help while I can.


Glirdan: He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say "Kill! Kill". He is, however, popping onto other people's suspicions and things, which seems very wolfish the way he's doing it. Wolf? Maybe!
Nogrod: Well he's busy, but he's too quiet even for a busy Nog. I'm concerned.
Wintywinty: The newbie pass is gone. Yes, you made a newbie mistake and you admit it, but that doesn't mean you're innocent. There's wolf cubs too, after all.
Boro88: Dead! Dead, dead, dead! *spites Lottie for picking on her so much*
Isabellkya: Surprisingly I'm getting good vibes from her. I'll certainly not be voting her toDay.
Mira: No feeling on her one way or the other.
Sally: LEAVE ME ALONE! Lol. Sorry, I hate being suspected for rubbish reasons. You wanna suspect me, fine, but don't create reasoning that's not the truth.
Agan: I need to keep a close eye on her because, frankly, I have no idea.
Inzil: Not a wolf. Plain and simple. Don't ask me how I know, I just do.
Shasta: First of all, no, I didn't follow his suspicions, I had my own. *is just saying* Anyway he's been acting quite strange lately and had some opinions on people that I think have been formed for the wrong reasons. Wolf, mehbe? *nods*
Lottie: Obviously innocent (unless she's lying) but she's really irking me. Just because you're a known innocent doesn't mean you are right about everything.
Nerwen: No evil vibes. As in, I'm getting them, so I know she's not evil.
Legate: I stand by my suspicions of yesterDay.
Morsul: Ditto. Opportunistic and a lemming. Such a wolf in my eyes.
Nienna: Not a lot on her, or rather not a lot of bad. I think she's safe.
Skip: He's not concerning me at all right now.
Lommie: I'm still worried about her, but she's not at the top of my list now.
Greenie: I see Lottie's case against her but I legitimately refuse to follow Lottie. ;)
Brinniel: No worries from her either.


In short....

Suspect:
Morsul
Legate
Glirdan
Winty
Shasta

Ish:
Nog
Lommie
Mira
Agan
Greenie

Don't suspect:
Izzy
Dun
Lottie
Nerwen
Skip
Brinn
Nienna


undoubtedly x'd....

[A Little Green]

This bugs me. You say my reasoning is bad, but don't explain why.
Right. I'm too tired to look up your vote post so correct me if I'm straying, but I believe you voted me because my vote seemed bandwaggonish. I think I've said enough about that vote already. What struck me as fishy about your vote was not only that it seemed ideally placed for a wolf, but also that voting someone for a bandwaggonish vote is about as easy a reason for a vote one can come up with, one that is seldom questioned though rather flimsy.

I was about to vote for you, but your latest post made me wonder if I should after all, it seemed somewhat genuine and sensible.


EDIT: x-ed with Shasta and Sally

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, let's do it like the wise king Solomon would. We cut these possible candidates for my vote in half... no, no, wait, that wasn't what I wanted to do. (Well...)

Since WW just started to be a bit more talkative, I might want to keep him for toMorrow in hope he will talk more again.

With Brinn, I could vote her, but it would likely be just a throwaway vote, and possibly then there might be also a chance to have her talk more until toMorrow.

Now comes the Solomon part. Inzil or sally, I said already that now I felt like I might like to keep Inzil for a bit yet. But to be honest it doesn't matter to me if he is lynched either. In any case, those two are probably going to tell a lot to us if their roles are revealed. So... I think I might vote sally, and see how things go... (and yes, I have taken into account that "frustrated innocent" thing Shasta said about her, but I just think that's always a possibility, and I am not convinced of it being like that so that it would convince me.)

Check, vote and go...

EDIT: x-ed with sally, especially! couldn't have picked a better time, okay, hope it'll help me decide, resp. support my decision... and greenie

[Loslote]

I sincerely hope that you will not succeed in your attempt. Talking about getting people lynched, I'd be interested to know who people are going to vote. I want to go to bed as soon as possible, but I'd like to hear some more opinions before voting..

EDIT: x-ed with Noggy, Winty & Glirdy

Sally or Glirdy (barring a Seer reveal). I'd consider voting for you or Agan, but to be honest, I'm *far* more convinced about those two. You and Agan I could be wrong about, I won't deny that - Sally and Glirdy I'm pretty darn sure about.

This is not to say I don't still suspect Greenie or Agan, just saying that I'm not positive anymore.

Something that bothers me is that Lottie has been pouncing on her four suspects for "acting too innocent", but misses this completely. Lottie, I realize you're a known innocent, but really? Just because you think you've spotted all four wolves in the first day doesn't mean you stop looking at anyone else and focus solely on those four. For example, several of the points in your "Sal-alysis" are pretty clearly grasping at straws.

I honestly agree with this quote by Agan:



I think you'd be a great help to the village if you'd take off your wolf-colored glasses.

You missed this quote of Lommy's back in #251:



But anyway.



Really? I didn't feel like you were ever a major candidate for the lynch... so why did you "have" to stay on the defensive?



Lottie has been doing the same thing and she's a confirmed innocent. In fact, she about said the exact same thing. I notice as well that there was a rather large amount of Sally suspicion before your post... so to me this looks a lot like a wolf trying to be the first vote on a wagon in order to look better.

And ha, Nienna thinks the same.





That was actually the second vote, and the way you said "oh well, guess it's a bandwagon now" kind of bothers me, not gonna lie.


Zil says this in #276:



...but then goes on to (seemingly) only consider Lottie's four suspects. Odd, that.




Doth I detect a challenge?

Haha, Agan agrees about Morsul too.






I disagree. I've been a frustrated innocent before (right, guys? *waves crossbow*) and honestly, Sally had just come back to two votes and a bucketload of suspicion. I'd probably be frustrated too.




Here's another quote that bothers me - you were looking for something to say that would make you seem more helpful?


I will say, after Greenie's #304, that my suspicion of her has lessened. Her defense of her vote seemed innocent to me.




More straws. One - this is a themed game. Two - why not be sad to see a fellow innocent gone? I don't agree with this reasoning and never have.


Hee hee. Legate agrees.




...And Zil agrees with what I said about Mira



Stop stealing my thoughts, people!




This bugs me. You say my reasoning is bad, but don't explain why.




This really bothers me too. I didn't have much of a read on Glirdan yet, but the tone of that remark was definitely bandwagonnish (especially since Sally seems to be the D2 easy lynch).


...and Greenie agrees.






Winty, do you think you could maybe say why you think that? Because as of right now it looks like you're just sheeping Lottie.

1. That's Morsul's style; he always sounds like that. :rolleyes: Plus, it was about the lynch, something which he *would* have had a chance to affect. Agan and Glirdy's were about the Night kill, something which only wolf!them could have affected - thus acting surprised and sorrowful gives off the impression that they did *not* play a part in his death.

2. That sort of over-the-topness in banter and village-acting has always annoyed me, and I have suspected people on it many a time before.

3. I might have to look at other people. Agan and Greenie are being annoyingly innocent-looking. I might have to actually think now! :eek:

Joking, that. I have been thinking so far; I just haven't seen anything else that looked wolfly. I'll look closer, k?

EDIT: xed

[satansaloser2005]

As much as I might suspect Shasta right now, I agree.

Most of Lottie's 'logic' relies on her 'calling the whole pack'. So if (rather when) she's proved wrong about one of them she'll be as clueless as she thinks the rest of us are. I'm just sayin'. ;)


ETA: This is in relation to his #344. For whatever reason it would't let me quote him.

[A Little Green]

My usual bed time was approximately four hours ago.

++ Shasta

I'll explain more fully toMorrow, if required. Good night.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, so it DID clear things for me. That more or less emphasises all my previous suspicions.

++sally

The jaws that bite, the claws that catch
will rob thee of thy shinbone.
Tinbone! Thinbone!
I think I've mixed a song or two
For this is about shinbone...

Good night!

EDIT: x-ed since my last.

[Loslote]

As much as I might suspect Shasta right now, I agree.

Most of Lottie's 'logic' relies on her 'calling the whole pack'. So if (rather when) she's proved wrong about one of them she'll be as clueless as she thinks the rest of us are. I'm just sayin'. ;)

I don't think the rest of you are clueless. I often disagree *cough*Zil*cough* but I think you all have good points. And my logic does not rely on my 'calling the whole pack' - even if Greenie and Agan aren't wolves, you and Glirdy can still easily be (and most probably are).

EDIT: xed.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

My usual bed time was approximately four hours ago.

++ Shasta

I'll explain more fully toMorrow, if required. Good night.


...Why wouldn't it be required?

[Loslote]

And again, Lottie, some of these points just plain stink. IC banter? Saying "I'm sad to see Boro gone?" I'm also noticing that all of your suspicions are reliant on all four being wolves; i.e. if you're wrong about one, you don't have much reasoning for the other three.

Not all of my suspicions are reliant on that at all. Some of my points are, and that's mostly just my supporting my theory that they are a pack. A lot of my suspicions stand on their own - particularly Sally and Glirdy and The Mysterious Case of the Throwaway Votes.

[Nogrod]

Inzil: Not a wolf. Plain and simple. Don't ask me how I know, I just do.

Brinniel: No worries from her either.
More interesting details pouring out?

EDIT: oops, X'd with a host of voting it seems.

[Morsul the Dark]

Morsul: Ditto. Opportunistic and a lemming. Such a wolf in my eyes.


A bit rude wouldn't you say?

Sorry I find you suspicious. Did I ever call you a horrid name? (Wolf doesn't count;))

[wintywinty]

Right now, I don't have time to explain my reasoning, as I have homework to attend to. If I get a chance later I will explain my reasoning though, but in case I don't have a chance to get back on before the night, ++Sally

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Like I said... day 2 easy lynch. With Morsul being opportunistic and Winty being bandwaggonish (going to get reasons for your votes from your packmates tonight, winty?), it's kind of hard to choose, but...
++Morsul

[Loslote]

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally (2)
Lommy -> Glirdy
Greenie -> Shasta
Legate -> Sally (3)
WW -> Sally (4)
Shasta -> Morsul

(I think that's right.)

EDIT: xed and added Shasta's vote

[Loslote]

A bit rude wouldn't you say?

Sorry I find you suspicious. Did I ever call you a horrid name? (Wolf doesn't count;))

Lemming isn't a horrid name. It means she thinks you're bandwaggoning. It's not a huge deal. :rolleyes:

[Loslote]

And Re: Greenie's vote for Shasta:

Shastawolf theory makes no sense.

If he were a wolf, do you really think he'd try to get me to *stop* blindly ignoring suspicious behavior? No. He'd be happy with the known innocent expressing trust for him, and unless I did have the rest of his packmates pegged (which, if Shasta's a wolf, I'm way mixed up anyay :rolleyes:) and he'd be fine with me chasing down innocents.

As it happens, your vote for him, which again was very badly reasoned, doesn't help at all with the uneasy "maybe I was wrong" feeling I was having. Now I'm quite a bit more sure about your guilt.

[satansaloser2005]

A bit rude wouldn't you say?

Sorry I find you suspicious. Did I ever call you a horrid name? (Wolf doesn't count;))

Sorry, dear, I thought you'd get the implication. Lemming as in a follower. There was no offense intended (other than that obvious "WOLF!" of course). :)

[satansaloser2005]

Turns out I'll be around until (more or less) deadline after all. Will be chilling with some people so still won't be very verbose, but I'll be around.

And Shasta needs to stop following me! :mad::eek::p

[Nogrod]

Darn... this has been the most disappointing ww-Day ever for me. Really. I just sit here and half-heartedly skim some pages and look for new entries. And do nothing, except going to the living room to move a pile of papers from point A to point B and have a cigarette. Maybe it's that over-stretching state where the mind and the body are over-exhausted or something (I had school today in the morning, seven hours of singing and dancing with the choir - and will have six hours of it tomorrow, went into the movies).

I just can't get hold of doing anything. Depressing indeed. And the clock is ticking (2.45AM right now).

Blah.

As you Lottie mentioned it, I suddenly remembered this (I was coming convinced that she is innocent - Greenie that is - just becasue I knew she had a tough day on D1 and I could sympathise with her haste and tiredness toDay coming to the thread such late). But it could actually fit.
Greenie: I see Lottie's case against her but I legitimately refuse to follow Lottie.

[Mirandir]

That's quite interesting. Floundering for something to contribute?

Yes, dear. What about that is interesting to you? It was Day 1. That was the first post I had made that wasn't straight up banter and didn't particularly want to be accused of being evil for not participating.

In an attempt to not miss deadline for the second day in a row (which is unfortunately extremely likely considering how much studying I still have to do. Procrastination = bad), ima go ahead and vote now.

++wintywinty

There's something suspicious about the way he's been posting. It could be because he's a newbie, but I'm going to go with the idea that there's wolfish coaching going on. Might change that if The Mythology of Crime and Criminal Justice doesn't suck my life completely away before DL.

[Isabellkya]

When I say it looked obvious that there was a connection between Boro and Loslote. It was primarily his duty speech. He also seemed very anti-Loslote lynch. Perhaps they thought he was the Seer instead?

Loslote, do you have any reasonings behind your categorical choices?

I think the most o.O votes from yesterDay are Nog's for Fea and Shasta[/b's for [b]Greenie.

The Greenie and Legate votes for Loslote, I think are the most suspicious on that wagon. Legate because of what I said yesterDay. He didn't seem to actually be concerned about the Loslote wagon; he was saying it, to merely say it. Greenie's vote looked opportunistic.

Loslote. Sally was the only Legate voter. Glirdan voted for Shasta.

Haha @ Sallyglare.

I'm confused Loslote. You say Legate is more innocent, because Sally and Glirdan voted for him. But then you talk about Glirdan's vote for Shasta.

Skip. Loslote claimed to be the other Shirriff. So far, no one has counter-claimed her. So the likelihood of her actually being the other Shirriff is pretty high.

I have to agree with Nerwen in regards to the multiple sentiments of surprise for yesterDays last minute voting. Uhm.. since when are the last minutes not crazy or frantic?

Legate seems a lot more... wordy that usual.

Yes Skip. To the wolves, both Fea and Loslote were innocents.

So Sally looks to be the easy lynch candidate toDay?

Brin, are you and Winty packmates? That paragrapgh addressed to him, looked like you were supplying him with a reason.

Sally's 'defense' of the suspicions against her, seem quite flat and completely void of emotion. Almost as if she doesn't care if she goes.

I can't agree with you 'pegging wolves' is the only reason you get lynched quickly Loslote.

I agree with Aganzir on her point against Winty. As it looks like there is no legitimate reason for his statement regarding Brin - other than perhaps he is a wolf, and it was discussed amongst his fellows.

You know.. all of this 'will explain my vote later' from multiple people.. is quite irritating. Is it really that difficult to attach a sentence or two with your vote? No, I don't think it is.



I apologize. My attention span today is atrocious. It took me two hours just to get through page seven. Then a new page popped up every time I went to the next.

[Loslote]

I'm going to go ahead and:

++ Glirdy

I might change if Shasta, Zil, Nog, or Ni are in danger of being lynched and voting Sally would save them. As this looks unlikely as of now, I probably won't change my vote.

EDIT: xed with Izzy

[Isabellkya]

Are you hoping that Glirdan is lynched, Loslote? Considering there are four on Sally right now.

[Loslote]

When I say it looked obvious that there was a connection between Boro and Loslote. It was primarily his duty speech. He also seemed very anti-Loslote lynch. Perhaps they thought he was the Seer instead?

Loslote, do you have any reasonings behind your categorical choices?


Yes - for the two Unsures, Boro and I considered you as a possible wolf if we were wrong about someone else. Brinn I just didn't have an opinion about yet. Now I trust her more than I suspect her, but I still don't have much of an opinion.

I think the most o.O votes from yesterDay are Nog's for Fea and Shasta[/b's for [b]Greenie.

The Greenie and Legate votes for Loslote, I think are the most suspicious on that wagon. Legate because of what I said yesterDay. He didn't seem to actually be concerned about the Loslote wagon; he was saying it, to merely say it. Greenie's vote looked opportunistic.

Nog's and Shasta's? Why?


Loslote. Sally was the only Legate voter. Glirdan voted for Shasta.

Haha @ Sallyglare.

I'm confused Loslote. You say Legate is more innocent, because Sally and Glirdan voted for him. But then you talk about Glirdan's vote for Shasta.


Yes. I was mistaken about that. Sorry.

I have to agree with Nerwen in regards to the multiple sentiments of surprise for yesterDays last minute voting. Uhm.. since when are the last minutes not crazy or frantic?

Ah, but there was quite a bit of behind-the-scenes planning...I can see where some people might have gotten lost.

Legate seems a lot more... wordy that usual.

Isn't he always wordy?

So Sally looks to be the easy lynch candidate toDay?

Pretty much, and I personally am not going to fight it. ;)

Sally's 'defense' of the suspicions against her, seem quite flat and completely void of emotion. Almost as if she doesn't care if she goes.

Lovely point, dear.

I can't agree with you 'pegging wolves' is the only reason you get lynched quickly Loslote.

True. I am also silly and people just like lynching me. :p

You know.. all of this 'will explain my vote later' from multiple people.. is quite irritating. Is it really that difficult to attach a sentence or two with your vote? No, I don't think it is.

Agreed.

I apologize. My attention span today is atrocious. It took me two hours just to get through page seven. Then a new page popped up every time I went to the next.

Heh. Don't worry about it. I've been having issues focusing, too.

EDIT: xed with Izzy

[Loslote]

Are you hoping that Glirdan is lynched, Loslote? Considering there are four on Sally right now.

I don't think it'll happen, but I'd be good with either of them dying, and decided to go with Glirdy.

EDIT: "it" being a Glirdy-lynch.

[wilwarin538]

So, like Nog said earlier Agan is having some internet issues and he PM'ed her vote to me. I trust that Nog isn't making it up, haha, so I'll accept it:

She would like to vote for

++ Inzil

Her message:

"He's the one I feel most confident about voting atm. Lottie makes me seriously mad and regardless of when I die, I will expect an apology for her frivolous accusations."

[satansaloser2005]

I don't think it'll happen, but I'd be good with either of them dying, and decided to go with Glirdy.

EDIT: "it" being a Glirdy-lynch.

Ah, and they speak of my throwaway votes....*rolls eyes*

EDIT: x'd with the Moddess, who momentarily confused me.

[satansaloser2005]

Sally's 'defense' of the suspicions against her, seem quite flat and completely void of emotion. Almost as if she doesn't care if she goes.


Yes, because me saying "I wish people actually had proper reasons and they really shouldn't kill me because it's a bad choice" is a passionless defense.


Did you want me to yell and scream and insult people? 'Cause I could, but it wouldn't make a difference.


Gah. People are never happy with anything anymore.

[wilwarin538]

Vote count, which I made all on my own cause I didn't think to check if any one else had done it for me (thanks Lottie).

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally (2)
Lommy -> Glirdan
Greenie -> Shasta
Legate -> Sally (3)
WW -> Sally (4)
Shasta -> Morsul
Mira -> WW
Lottie -> Glirdan (2)
Agan -> Inzil

DL in 2 hours and 13 minutes. (since I extended it by an hour)

[satansaloser2005]

The weirdest thing is that Lottie's not even doing all this weird stuff because she's evil. She's being confusing and off-base and she's innocent. That's what really worries me.

[Loslote]

So, like Nog said earlier Agan is having some internet issues and he PM'ed her vote to me. I trust that Nog isn't making it up, haha, so I'll accept it:

She would like to vote for

[*highlight]++ Inzil [/highlight*]

Her message:

"He's the one I feel most confident about voting atm. Lottie makes me seriously mad and regardless of when I die, I will expect an apology for her frivolous accusations."

I'm sorry, dear. I won't appologize for my non-frivolous accusations, but I will admit some of them were over the top. Sorry.

Ah, and they speak of my throwaway votes....*rolls eyes*

Ah, but there is a difference. You were the first to vote him and there was little support for his lynch. Moreover you said did not particularly like the main candidate for lynchdom. I do like the current main candidate, there is already a vote for Glirdy, and others do suspect him.

EDIT: xed since the Sally post I quoted.

[Morsul the Dark]

you did insult me you called me a lemming:rolleyes: sorry the tone in my post was off as well. I knoew what you meant I had nothing to add but that :)

And for the record every time I try to defend myself everyone says "WOAH Over the top response must be a Wolf"

Though I'm not changing my vote I like the tone of Sally's defenses(I just don't believe them;))

Sally I got your back... sort of

[Nogrod]

I apologize. My attention span today is atrocious. It took me two hours just to get through page seven. Then a new page popped up every time I went to the next.Sharing the feeling... :(

Okay, one thing. There has been something I don't think honest in Mira's posting and now her vote on winty looks like a too easy one - like Shasta's rambling over whether to vote Morsul or winty.

Morsul tends to get lynched and at least suspected a lot just because of the way he thinks / plays (to disprove that we once let him be the whole game and of course he was a wolf then and won...). So I'm not saying he can't be a wolf, but jumping on suspecting him is the easiest choice possible because one can always quite legitimately say "he looks suspicious" as that is what he does, everytime.

With winty I see more a new player getting to grips with this game more than a wolf. And the most suspicious thing (making reasons for his vote afterwards based on things that had happened after his vote!) he admitted he had come up. Also, if they were mates, why would Brinn tell him in public on D2 how he should have played on D1? Couldn't she have just said it last Night? But it surely is easy to say he looks suspicious (he does). Say that and more or less everyone nods.

They both could be wolves (probably not both but one of them), but I'd choose someone I have a real suspicion instead of Morsul (as the chances of getting it wrong are that big) or winty (he has been better toDay than on D1, so maybe he should have a chance to show can he improve on D3). They may not be "easy lynches" as many people I think share my view on them, but they are "easily voted" as none would normally blame anyone voting for them...

x'd with the Moddess, who momentarily confused me.Even if I PM'd that vote to her, seeing Wilwa voting kind of made me gasp as well... :D

[Loslote]

The weirdest thing is that Lottie's not even doing all this weird stuff because she's evil. She's being confusing and off-base and she's innocent. That's what really worries me.

I have mentioned that I don't like it when people trust me? I have, right? 'Cause turns out being a known innocent is making me really sleepy and bored. Just sayin'.

EDIT: xed since my last.

[satansaloser2005]

Ah, but there is a difference. You were the first to vote him and there was little support for his lynch. Moreover you said did not particularly like the main candidate for lynchdom. I do like the current main candidate, there is already a vote for Glirdy, and others do suspect him.

EDIT: xed since the Sally post I quoted.


Yes, there is a difference. I didn't like the primary lynch candidate so I didn't vote for them. You DO and you still are splitting the vote.

So who's the one who's voting improperly? Not me.


How are you not evil?!?!


ETA: x'd with Lottie

[Morsul the Dark]

Sharing the feeling... :(

Morsul tends to get lynched and at least suspected a lot just because of the way he thinks / plays (to disprove that we once let him be the whole game and of course he was a wolf then and won...). So I'm not saying he can't be a wolf, but jumping on suspecting him is the easiest choice possible because one can always quite legitimately say "he looks suspicious" as that is what he does, everytime.


I survived for a while yes but I didn't win... for the record

[Loslote]

Yes, there is a difference. I didn't like the primary lynch candidate so I didn't vote for them. You DO and you still are splitting the vote.

So who's the one who's voting improperly? Not me.


How are you not evil?!?!


ETA: x'd with Lottie

Ah, but bandwaggoning is so boring. Voting for an alternate candidate (who really is a candidate, not just a throwaway) is so much more entertaining...

EDIT: xed with Morsul

[Glirdan]

And btw, some people yesterDay voiced suspicion about me according to my vote for Lottie, calling it that I jumped on a bandwagon or something, note please that I kept saying that I am going to vote her (and was quite firmly decided to do that) already quite early, and I was the first one to suspect her as far as I am aware (my post where I said it crossposted I think with somebody saying similar suspicion, but that's it). And for that matter, I didn't even realise for quite a long time that Fea's vote was for her as well (as I didn't think about the vote, considering it a "random vote" which, even more likely, is going to be retracted! - cf. Lommy's theory about that Fea cast it only to retract it later. Anyway, I wasn't considering the vote). So my vote was only my vote and that's also why I kept it even with the concern about "easy lynch crowd" (as I said in reply to Nogrod who voiced that concern).

The reasoning for his vote is clear and respectable, but the overall tone seems a little too defensive.


Glirdy's actions scream wolf (especially his Shasta vote - vote someone who looks not at all suspicious because he voted for your packmate? ).

I am really starting to get agitated with this constant biased reasoning. You're making the assumption that I am evil based on my vote for Shasta due to his out of the blue vote for Greenie, who is my quote/unquote "packmate"? Yes, my vote was a throwaway vote yesterDay, but I went through my list of suspicions and voted for the one person who stood out the most, which was Shasta as his vote troubled me.


Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

This seems a little overly defensive to me...but as it is in response to Lottie who has been hounding everyone with biased reasoning, it could very well be that Agan is simply exasperated.


Anyway... in contrary to people wondering about Lottie's suspects, I suggest we really consider them strongly (especially those which they agreed on).

I thought that would have been the obvious thing, seeing as both Boro and Lottie are known innocents. Perhaps you're just stating this so as to steer attention away from yourself?


Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.

I'm not going to keep on defending myself over this, especially since there is only about two hours and twenty minutes left of the Day at the time of writing this and I have been defending myself against Lottie since late in the Day for Day 1.


Unfortunately, when there's this many players around it can be really difficult to focus on everyone, unless you have a whole bunch of time on your hands...which most of us don't.

Amen.


Which brings me to the end of page 7....FINALLY....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quick Conclusion From This Page

Legate is starting to stand out to me. He's making concise arguments, yes, but some of the points he is bringing up (like the one mentioned above) are things that would be fairly obvious to all of us with the exception of our new players. So why point it out?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So at this point,

Sally and Legate are in my suspicions list, which may change with my reading of page 8. Will be back to post that but first....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anybody else worried about Mira and Nerwen? They have been relatively quiet this game, although Mira is a little more worrisome then Nerwen as the latter has been making some great contributions to the game. I'd love to hear more from both, but more so Mira.

EDIT: Xed with numerous amounts of people.
EDIT2: Quoted improperly, fixed it up

[Inziladun]

Yes, dear. What about that is interesting to you? It was Day 1. That was the first post I had made that wasn't straight up banter and didn't particularly want to be accused of being evil for not participating.

In an attempt to not miss deadline for the second day in a row (which is unfortunately extremely likely considering how much studying I still have to do. Procrastination = bad), ima go ahead and vote now.

highlight]++wintywinty[/highlight]

There's something suspicious about the way he's been posting. It could be because he's a newbie, but I'm going to go with the idea that there's wolfish coaching going on. Might change that if The Mythology of Crime and Criminal Justice doesn't suck my life completely away before DL.

To my mind, looking for ways to not appear evil is something wolves obsess about.
And as Nog noted, that surely is a safe and painless vote.

x/d with all since 379

[satansaloser2005]

Ah, but bandwaggoning is so boring. Voting for an alternate candidate (who really is a candidate, not just a throwaway) is so much more entertaining...

EDIT: xed with Morsul

Entertaining is not helping the village. Entertaining just entertains you.


Does no one see the gaping holes in the logic of this plan?

[Loslote]

Entertaining is not helping the village. Entertaining just entertains you.


Does no one see the gaping holes in the logic of this plan?

My logic is quite failing toDay. I should probably take a nap or something, but I just can't gather up the willpower...:rolleyes:

[Nienna]

Agan Day Two:
247 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626967&postcount=247): sad about Boro’s death, surprised Fea was the cobbler but happy she is dead, isn’t sure if the wolves thought that Lottie and Boro were the Sheriffs, thinks Lottie may be a bit too subjective in her analysis of Sally, would like to know why Lottie is so sure of Greenie, Agan, Glirdy, and Sally being wolves

249 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626969&postcount=249): Denies that she was the main advocate for Lottie’s death (--I agree with her there… from looking over the last day she wasn’t the main advocate--), says that her contribution is just as good as Lottie’s

252 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626975&postcount=252): doesn’t think she is on the same wave-length as Nog but doesn’t think he is a wolf, wonders why I thought Mira was acting Mira-esque, also thinks Brinn was forcing normalcy but she isn’t usually on the same wave-length as Brinn either. She doesn’t like Zil’s vote for Mira based on her suspicions, asks Zil why if the Lottie-wagon was suspicious did he not find most of the members suspicious, thinks Izzy looks good, would love more substance from Sally but she isn’t looking good, re-explains retractions for WinWin, wonders who talked about Brinn before WinWin’s vote as he claimed, likes Glirdy for now

281 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627009&postcount=281): agrees with Lommy, doesn’t like Lottie’s flimsy reasons for suspecting people just because she is a known innocent, notes that she may be taking the retraction thing a bit far, thinks knowing Sally’s role will shed some light on things, doesn’t like Morsul’s vote, thinks WinWin’s defense of his Brinn vote is very suspicious because no-one praised her so he didn’t really have enough info to go on

285 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627014&postcount=285): Defends herself to Zil – responds to his points about her… read it for exacts

291 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627020&postcount=291): List: Guilty – Morsul for his reasoning, Mira for her weird treatment of WinWin, WinWin for his fishy vote explanation, Zil for his comment about the Lottie-wagon and for suspecting Lottie’s suspects but then still asking Lottie why she thinks so

295 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627024&postcount=295): Asks Mira to explain her suspicion of WinWin among other things

299 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627028&postcount=299): defends her sadness at Boro’s death, defends herself to Lottie, still wonders what made WinWin say that he knew Brinn was a good player

Votes Zil via Wilwa

In conclusion. She seems rather innocent to me. She hasn't really done anything to make her seem wolvish. She's on my leaning innocent category at the moment.

Edit: x-ed since 380

[Nogrod]

Sally's 'defense' of the suspicions against her, seem quite flat and completely void of emotion. Almost as if she doesn't care if she goes.

Yes, because me saying "I wish people actually had proper reasons and they really shouldn't kill me because it's a bad choice" is a passionless defense.

Did you want me to yell and scream and insult people? 'Cause I could, but it wouldn't make a difference.
It is interesting how differently people seem to interpret things. I read Izzy's point as a defence of you Sally: your defence is void of emotion, you don't care eg. you're an ordo... I think any innocent would have read it thus. But then you go on interpreting it the opposite way! So does that actually tell us you're guilty as you see any comment on you as a threat?
How are you not evil?!?!I saw Agan getting upset with Lottie - and I think with a reason - but what is this? Resigning already?
Does no one see the gaping holes in the logic of this plan?I don't. She has her retractable vote in store if something would go wrong from her POV. If she thinks you two as suspicious that's all right. Actually putting forwards two candidates is a good idea because then people can't just bandwagon on one person (the wolves have it easy if everyone votes the same) and some choices might be quite telling later when roles of the lynched are learned.

[Isabellkya]

Nog's and Shasta's? Why?

Shasta's vote seemed to come out of left field. Nog's, essentially the same. With everything that he had been posting, I had not been thinkinghe would be voting for Fea.

Yes, Legate tends to post a lot. But his wording seems to be fluffy. He seems to take the scenic route in making his points.


Well Sally. You have had an awful lot of joking around posts. Eventually, you lessen it, and get serious and contribute. But.. you're still in a banter, joke phase.

You calling Loslote on her 'weirdness' and being innocent. Uhm... when have YOU not done that yourself? When have others not?


X'd with everything after #380. Apparently didn't refresh enough.

[Nogrod]

Okay. 3.40 and I'm off to sleep.

++ Sally

I thought for a moment of joining Lottie's Glirdy-wagon just to make sure there is a real choice, but then I realised I'm not in that comfort-zone where I could say that they are as suspicious and it's just the same which one we lynch. I do suspect Glirdy, but I do think we have better chances of getting a wolf with Sally. Especially looking at her latest posting...

EDIT: X'd with Izzy

[Nienna]

Nog's point against Sally is quite good. And I wish that she would contribute something and not sulk around being all "woe is me" ... love you though I do, dearie, you are going to need to shape up rather quickly to get me to not vote for you.

Edit: x-ed with Nog

[satansaloser2005]

Nog's point against Sally is quite good. And I wish that she would contribute something and not sulk around being all "woe is me" ... love you though I do, dearie, you are going to need to shape up rather quickly to get me to not vote for you.

Edit: x-ed with Nog

Well here's my theory. If people aren't making factual, reasonable points against me I don't have anything to do to defend myself than tell them they're misunderstanding me and need better reasoning. Which is what I've done.

[wintywinty]

What does x-ed mean that people put at the end of their posts?

[Isabellkya]

I really don't see all that is wrong, necessarily with what I think Loslote is doing. If there is only one lynch candidate.. then what exactly will that tell us in the future? We will gain very little information on it.


X'd since my last post.

[Nienna]

What does x-ed mean that people put at the end of their posts?

It means cross-posted... or you posted your post before you saw some of the posts that were posted at the same time (or while you were writing yours)

[Loslote]

What does x-ed mean that people put at the end of their posts?

It means they've cross-posted - that they started writing their post before the other person submitted theirs, and thus did not see that post.

EDIT: xed with Ni. :p

[Inziladun]

Right now, I have narrowed down the twp possible people I am going to vote for to either Glirdy, or Sally. Glirdy and Sally seem to me as being the most suspicous thus far.

As has been noted, this might seem sinister in the way ww sticks with the two candidates that are (apparently) the lynch du jour. Perhaps though, he's now following Lottie's lead as the de facto innocent, at least someone who isn't going to intentionally try to lead us to an innocent lynch. That's why I've been mainly looking at her suspects.
If I thought Mira was a viable candidate toDay, I might well vote for her again.
As it is, if we're down to Sally and Glirdan, I need to make up my mind....

x/d with all since 389

[Nienna]

Well here's my theory. If people aren't making factual, reasonable points against me I don't have anything to do to defend myself than tell them they're misunderstanding me and need better reasoning. Which is what I've done.

That's fine. Stop defending yourself and tell us who you think are wolves or who you find suspicious and why.

[satansaloser2005]

That's fine. Stop defending yourself and tell us who you think are wolves or who you find suspicious and why.

I think you missed it (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627076&postcount=345). If you want more details I'm happy to give. :)

[skip spence]

Is back from a night out and trying to catch up with the proceedings... Not an easy task I must say, me thinking's gravely impaired... BRB.

[Isabellkya]

Innocent
Loslote - the only reservation that I have against completely writing her off as innocent, is that is it 100% certain there couldn't be a Wolf Shirriff? The shirriff being a sub role? Or was it clear that Shiriff is an entire role such as hunter/ranger/see etcetera.


Suspect
Sally
Mira
Legate

Read? Where?
Brin
Winty
Nienna

Middle
Nog
Dun
Skip

Middle-suspect
Lommy
Agan
Glirdan
Greenie

middle-?
Shasta
Morsul
Nerwen

[Nienna]

I think you missed it (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627076&postcount=345). If you want more details I'm happy to give. :)

Yes I did miss that... the formatting isn't eye-catching for me. I would love more details though.

[Glirdan]

The thing is, nobody said that you have good insights and you're a very good player/wolf - during the day. Winty says it's something many have said, but who has he heard it from if no one has said so here?

This is really interesting point. Going back quickly (and I mean I skimmed it) I could not find a single person who stated that Brinn is a strong player, and if it was said, it was said well after his vote. Where is he getting all this information? His fellow Wolfies??


Sally demands an explanation for this suspicion crap. Like, seriously?

I'll explain the thing with Morsul and Shasta though, because I can see how you would be confused. I suspected Morsul already and had been planning to say something about it, so when Shasta did as well I was like "Look, yay, support, I'm not crazy". Then Shasta says he realized Morsul was kidding (yeah, because NO ONE has every hidden behind jokes before, oh noes, never) and I thought it was strange because for pity's sake, that was a quick flip flop and quite the lame excuse. So then I made it clear that I suspected Morsul anyway, 'cause I hadn't been following Shasta in the first place, he just happened to post first.

Oh, and did no one see that I'd been suspecting Lottie from the beginning? Sure, Legate can say he started the trend but I said "Something's not right with her" well toward the beginning of the Day. (Yes, I know, I was clearly wrong, but that's not the point.) And I never went toward a "Save Lottie she's innocent" point of view. The only thing I said that could be read like that was that I wanted to not kill her on Day One (AGAIN) and that I thought there were better candidates.

Really, this is ridiculous. I think you've all been putting things in your tea.

(I edited the spacing to save some room)

This whole post is waaaaay too defensive. It's a game of Werewolf, suspicions will come up, why are you being overly defensive? The only possible explanation for that would be that you're a Wolf trying to save your hide, so to speak.


I tend to trust Lottie's shirriff reveal, since I see no reason not to. Her suspicion of Greenie makes me suspicious of her by default, but I'll have to go through and look a bit deeper at her posts.

This feels too much like a bandwagon....albeit, it is with a known innocent. However, it is quite plausible, especially with her lack of reasoning, that she is a Wolf is Mira clothing. Will have to see what she has said since this to get a better read off her.


That was really me floundering for something to contribute than anything else. And no, I got the Morsul thing, and so far you suspicion is really the only reason I'm considering voting for you. I could look for more basis if you'd like.

Fairly honest answer to the original question posed, yet the last two bits that are bold stand out. Maybe I'm just tired because I have been looking at this computer screen for the past two to three hours without a break, but that is just poor reasoning for voting anyone at this point.

Which brings me to when I first got back....almost three hours ago actually :rolleyes:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Conclusions

Mira has made my eyebrows rise after reading those last few posts of hers.

Sally is looking ridiculously guilty.

winty has me at a crossroads. He could very well be a bewildered newbie, or he could be a really clever newbie-wolf with his packmates giving him hints at Night.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Going to go over the post of page 9 and 10 very quickly and touched on things that I have been missing whilst doing this.

[wintywinty]

Innocent
Loslote - the only reservation that I have against completely writing her off as innocent, is that is it 100% certain there couldn't be a Wolf Shirriff? The shirriff being a sub role? Or was it clear that Shiriff is an entire role such as hunter/ranger/see etcetera.


Suspect
Sally
Mira
Legate

Read? Where?
Brin
Winty
Nienna

Middle
Nog
Dun
Skip

Middle-suspect
Lommy
Agan
Glirdan
Greenie

middle-?
Shasta
Morsul
Nerwen

If someone else other than Lottie was the sherriff, they would have claimed it and everyone would have voted for Lottie because she'd be a wolf.

[Isabellkya]

That wasn't my point, Winty.

I am uncomfortable and completely creeped out, with the seemingly lack of anyone save perhaps Glirdan suspecting me - and it isn't even a full blown suspicion.

[satansaloser2005]

This whole post is waaaaay too defensive. It's a game of Werewolf, suspicions will come up, why are you being overly defensive? The only possible explanation for that would be that you're a Wolf trying to save your hide, so to speak.

I don't mind being suspected. I really don't. I just wish people had better reasoning. If they suspected me for things I'd actually done I'd just shrug it off, but the things I'm being accused of I didn't even do. It just makes me mad.


*waves at Nienna*

Don't worry about it. I did that post right as I thought I'd be leaving so I didn't format it all pretty; my apologies. What do you need clarification on? :D

[Loslote]

That wasn't my point, Winty.

I am uncomfortable and completely creeped out, with the seemingly lack of anyone save perhaps [b[Glirdan[/b] suspecting me - and it isn't even a full blown suspicion.

I know, right? The game is just weird if no one suspects you. :(

Now, I have played many rounds of Solitaire and I am hoping my brain cells are so annoyed they'll start working again.

EDIT: xed with Sally.

[Brinniel]

Okay, looking back at yesterDay I can see what Lommy was talking about with Lottie's suspicious behaviour, though I don't agree with it. No matter now.

Greenie's vote did have poor reasoning, however I'm not sure it's wolfish. She seemed a bit rushed at the time and took the easy route by going with her gut. Nogrod is the first I believe to mention he doesn't like her vote. Then Shasta votes Greenie. Later on Glirdan calls the vote bandwaggonish. Lottie is convinced she's evil. Inzil mentions her vote looks bad but excuses it due to possible RL reasons. Boro states he's for a Greenie lynch. Nienna and Loslote vote Greenie.

I'm not sure there's much to make out of this bandwagon after all. It was mostly pushed by Boro and Lottie, who are both innocent. The only ones who come out looking possibly bad in this are Nienna for not explaining her vote (though it seems she was saving Lottie, but I'm not sure how much she actually suspected Greenie) and Shasta for dropping that bomb out of nowhere. But even then I'm not sure their votes are necessarily evil.

The thing is, nobody said that you have good insights and you're a very good player/wolf - during the day.
Okay, well I thought in my skimming I just missed it. But whatever, it seems winty admits he was just making it up.

And although Brinn brought up other points against him (you can't vote for someone early and explain it by things "others have said"), her reaction to winty's post is somewhat lesser than I imagined it would be. It looks as if she was giving him advice, but if they were fellows why did he vote for her then? Of course it's possible she's nothing but an experienced player instructing a newbie, regardless of their roles...
My reaction was lesser? What did you expect, that I'd explode with outrage? winty's vote and reasons behind it were irritating, but at the same time so absurd that I had no reason to be upset. As for the advice thing, don't you think if I were a wolf giving my fellow advice about his actions from yesterDay, I would've done it last Night by PM instead? It was your last sentence which was the case; sometimes newbies need some guidance and I'm willing to do that rather than blow him off.

Mira's vote for winty and reasoning for it doesn't sit quite right with me. It's again taking the easy route, and it's hard to say whether it's actually sinister or just an innocent busy with RL.

About Sally. One thing that caught my eye from yesterDay was when she used her retraction, it really looked like she was simply following the flock in order to look better. Her vote for Legate wasn't great either; as someone mentioned, it was a bit of a throwaway considering she seemed eager to save Lottie. Today she's quite defensive, which is understandable since she does have the most votes. But with her over-the-top behaviour, I can also understand why the votes are piling up. This sort of behaviour does remind me of a wolfish Sally in previous games.

Lottie: While I believe there could very well be a good chance one of your suspects is a wolf, the likelihood of all of them being one is extremely slim. And this certainty can easily skew your opinions of everyone else. Though I noticed recently it looks like you are starting to open up the possibility that you may be wrong, which is good because you need to be open to other scenarios. Though I must say, I'm rather tempted to put Lottie's suspicions to the test and lynch one of those four. Has she beenas good at spotting wolves in the past as she says?

Also, I keep forgetting that Izzy and Nerwen exist in this game...not sure exactly what that means.

I feel like I had more to say, but if I did, I've lost it. Anyway, this post took forever and it's almost deadline which means time to vote soon..

[Glirdan]

Would it have been more appeasing to you if...


Would you rather me just...

Interesting...

Care to explain what is so interesting?



Glirdan: He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say

What really gets me is that you say that you don't have enough to suspect me on, yet in that exact same post you put me in your suspect list.


Right now, I don't have time to explain my reasoning, as I have homework to attend to. If I get a chance later I will explain my reasoning though, but in case I don't have a chance to get back on before the night, ++Sally

How hard is it to come up with one to two sentences on why you think said person is suspicious before you leave? It takes two seconds! Unless you really have no idea and are just going along with the pack and will get your reasoning from a fellow Wolf later on?

EDIT: Xed since last post
EDIT2: Quoted wrong again...I'm getting tired....

[Isabellkya]

Yeah well, for different reasons Loslote.

There are usually people whom suspect me. Even for the same reasons that they think I'm 'sensible' this game. Which creeps me out. Should it be used as a sign that thay are playing differently because of an alignment difference?

[Nienna]

I'm not sure there's much to make out of this bandwagon after all. It was mostly pushed by Boro and Lottie, who are both innocent. The only ones who come out looking possibly bad in this are Nienna for not explaining her vote (though it seems she was saving Lottie, but I'm not sure how much she actually suspected Greenie) and Shasta for dropping that bomb out of nowhere. But even then I'm not sure their votes are necessarily evil.


Here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=626994&postcount=269) you are dear. You must have skimmed through it. I didn't have time to write it at the time.

[satansaloser2005]

Glirdan, darling, you didn't quote my whole bit on you.


Glirdan: He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say "Kill! Kill". He is, however, popping onto other people's suspicions and things, which seems very wolfish the way he's doing it. Wolf? Maybe!


So to say I said I had nothing (or little) to suspect you on is just incorrect.

This actually makes me suspect you even more. *is pensive*

[Brinniel]

For reasons stated in my post above:

++Sally

Bah, I feel like I should be bringing forth a competing candidate, but there actually really is no one else I suspect all that much. I've spent longer than I should on WW, and after all that then I haven't even begun to thoroughly examine any players thoroughly.

[wintywinty]

How hard is it to come up with one to two sentences on why you think said person is suspicious before you leave? It takes two seconds! Unless you really have no idea and are just going along with the pack and will get your reasoning from a fellow Wolf later on?


My main reason? He stated he wanted Lottie to live yesterday, but then he did not help her by throwing away his vote on someone who was not going to get lynched.

[satansaloser2005]

Go to bed, Brinn dear. (Or, you know, whatever else you need to do.) Don't kill yourself over the game if you've got more important things to do. :)

(Especially since you're already killing me. ;))

[Brinniel]

How hard is it to come up with one to two sentences on why you think said person is suspicious before you leave? It takes two seconds! Unless you really have no idea and are just going along with the pack and will get your reasoning from a fellow Wolf later on?
A good point. He really hasn't made much of an improvement from yesterDay. I'm still thinking it's more likely innocent newbie behaviour, but it's also very possible he could be a wolf.

Here you are dear. You must have skimmed through it. I didn't have time to write it at the time.
I probably did read it and just forgot.

[Glirdan]

Sorry, I actually missed the rest of it:


Glirdan: He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say"Kill! Kill". He is, however, popping onto other people's suspicions and things, which seems very wolfish the way he's doing it. Wolf? Maybe!

Okay, now that I'm reading that as a whole, it makes me even more suspicious of you. The bolded bit is what got me. You're going along with the flock! What do you mean by that entire phrase? It just makes no sense and seems like you're trying to save yourself.

[Brinniel]

Hey, was deadline extended without my knowledge? I must not be paying attention or something..

[Loslote]

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally (2)
Lommy -> Glirdan
Greenie -> Shasta
Legate -> Sally (3)
WW -> Sally (4)
Shasta -> Morsul
Mira -> WW
Lottie -> Glirdan (2)
Agan -> Inzil
Nog -> Sally (5)
Brinn -> Sally (6)

[Loslote]

Hey, was deadline extended without my knowledge? I must not be paying attention or something..

Yeah, we've got another hour or so.

[Inziladun]

InnocentLoslote - the only reservation that I have against completely writing her off as innocent, is that is it 100% certain there couldn't be a Wolf Shirriff? The shirriff being a sub role? Or was it clear that Shiriff is an entire role such as hunter/ranger/see etcetera.

The indication appears to be that the Shirriffs are innocent.

2 Shirriffs : the first role I ever had in a WW game, so I have a soft spot for it ^_^. Basically just PM pals, don’t die together or anything, and can’t reveal their roles while both are still alive.

[Isabellkya]

Yeah. deadline was extended by an hour.


X'd with Dun and Loslote.

[skip spence]

So what's the current vote tally? Sally's dying, isn't she?

(is having trouble making any sense of the proceedings)

Edit: x-posted and appreciates the vote tally provided

[satansaloser2005]

Sorry, I actually missed the rest of it:



Okay, now that I'm reading that as a whole, it makes me even more suspicious of you. The bolded bit is what got me. You're going along with the flock! What do you mean by that entire phrase? It just makes no sense and seems like you're trying to save yourself.

How am I going along with the flock? (And since when is it the flock? Lol.) It's my opinion, no one else's, and it's entirely true. The fact that you're going to such lengths to discredit my opinion makes me want to do....

++

....


Well, you know.

I've a few things to think over (and I'm watching Doctor Who, so, you know).


x'd since the post I quoted

[satansaloser2005]

So what's the current vote tally? Sally's dying, isn't she?
(is having trouble making any sense of the proceedings)

Edit: x-posted and appreciates the vote tally provided



So far, yes, but you can still prevent it. :)

[Isabellkya]

Glirdan really rubs me the wrong way.
With the amount of people voting for Sally, it gives me pause.

So, I will probably be voting for Glirdan.

[Brinniel]

Yeah, we've got another hour or so.

Pfft, did I miss it skimming through toDay's posts, or was it only stated in the admin thread? If the latter, that'd explain why since I haven't checked that thread for awhile (too busy with this one).

I was in the middle of my post, and realised that oh crap, it's deadline, and rushed to finish it. Guess I could've spent more time looking at other players, after all. Though I suppose it's for the best since I should part ways for the Day. I still need a late dinner...

[Isabellkya]

I think it was posted in the Admin thread, as well as at least once in here. I think also the Day start post. Can't be sure.

[skip spence]

Gotta go to bed. Haven't got the focus now to get a real grip of what's been happening, but I understand Sally's got her back against the wall. I've had no real suspicion against her but I can see how some would find her behaviour creepy. Would be interesting to find out her role - she might well be a wolf but she would not be my first choice to vote for. Glirdan I've had a slight suspicion on since day one and although I've no clear picture of exactly what he's been up to tonight, at least he's not reassured me. So, in order to open up another alternative:

++Glirdan

[Glirdan]

Well, I'm voting now

++Sally

For suspicions that I've stated in earlier posts all Day....well, since I've been here.

[Inziladun]

Not liking some of Glirdan's latest.

Legate is starting to stand out to me. He's making concise arguments, yes, but some of the points he is bringing up (like the one mentioned above) are things that would be fairly obvious to all of us with the exception of our new players. So why point it out?

I don't see that from Legate. In fact, he looks better to me now then he did yesterDay. And even if only the new players might benefit from some of the things he's said, does that make him suspicious for saying them?

Anybody else worried about Mira and Nerwen? They have been relatively quiet this game, although Mira is a little more worrisome then Nerwen as the latter has been making some great contributions to the game. I'd love to hear more from both, but more so Mira.

'Anybody else worried?' That has the feel of someone throwing out a couple of lines and seeing if any fish bite. And if Nerwen has been making 'great contributions', what's the cause for worry about her?


This is really interesting point. Going back quickly (and I mean I skimmed it) I could not find a single person who stated that Brinn is a strong player, and if it was said, it was said well after his vote. Where is he getting all this information? His fellow Wolfies??

Regurgitation of things others already said.

This whole post is waaaaay too defensive. It's a game of Werewolf, suspicions will come up, why are you being overly defensive? The only possible explanation for that would be that you're a Wolf trying to save your hide, so to speak.

Saying that's 'the only possible explanation' for Sally's defensive posture seems overly zealous.

Conclusions

Mira has made my eyebrows rise after reading those last few posts of hers.

Sally is looking ridiculously guilty.

winty has me at a crossroads. He could very well be a bewildered newbie, or he could be a really clever newbie-wolf with his packmates giving him hints at Night.

'Ridiculously guilty' looks overly agressive, and might show an eagerness to be one with the herd mentality and get Sally.

Glirdan, darling, you didn't quote my whole bit on you.

So to say I said I had nothing (or little) to suspect you on is just incorrect.

This actually makes me suspect you even more. *is pensive*

What he left out of Sally's quote was rather important to the point he was trying to make on her; or rather, what was omitted made his point untrue.

Sorry, I actually missed the rest of it:

Okay, now that I'm reading that as a whole, it makes me even more suspicious of you. The bolded bit is what got me. You're going along with the flock! What do you mean by that entire phrase? It just makes no sense and seems like you're trying to save yourself.

This last bit looks horrible. Glirdan looks like a wolf going in for the kill with confidence.

++Glirdan

[satansaloser2005]

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally (2)
Lommy -> Glirdan
Greenie -> Shasta
Legate -> Sally (3)
WW -> Sally (4)
Shasta -> Morsul
Mira -> WW
Lottie -> Glirdan (2)
Agan -> Inzil
Nog -> Sally (5)
Brinn -> Sally (6)
Skip -> Glirdan (3)
Glirdan -> Sally (7)
Dun -> Glirdan (4)

[wilwarin538]

note: Shirriffs are certainly innocent, and they are their own role, so no ShirriffSeer or anything either.

*loves all the vote tally providers*

[Isabellkya]

Okay, thanks Miss Moddess.

Just didn't want the game to be over, and find out Loslote was an evil Shirriff or something.. and we all be 'why did none of us question it'. xD

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, thanks Miss Moddess.

Just didn't want the game to be over, and find out Loslote was an evil Shirriff or something.. and we all be 'why did none of us question it'. xD

Heh. I had to triple check the admin thread and such because I had the same thoughts. :p

[wilwarin538]

9 minutes left

[satansaloser2005]

Well for what it's worth I'm pretty much positive Glirdan's evil. His posts of late just scream it to me and further my prior suspicion of him. So yeah.

Why am I not voting then?

'Cause Wilwa loves suspense, and I live to serve. ;)

*pets the moddess*


Where are the rest of you though?

[Nienna]

*is here...*

[satansaloser2005]

Oh thank tea! Lol.

*snuggles you*

So. I thought you had some things you wanted to ask me, but you never did so I never answered. Unless I missed them. :( Sorry. :(

[Isabellkya]

I am here. I think it is just us three left to vooote.

[satansaloser2005]

Yup, I think so. And three minutes for us to do it in. :)

[Isabellkya]

++Glirdan

While I think both the popular candidates are suspicious.. I am not comfortable with how the Sally voting has gone, which gives me pause.

X'd with Sally

[Loslote]

I am here again, but as I will not switch my vote I doubt if that's much help to you. *pets Sallycakes*

EDIT: Aw, man, I was planning to use my 1,000th post for something awesome...:( Ah, well.

[Nienna]

++ Sally

Edit: x-ed with Izzy and Lottie

[satansaloser2005]

++ Sally

What the....that doesn't even make sense. Not even commentary, just a vote?

You. Are. Bonkers.

Oh, and because Wilwa's bothering me....

++Glirdan

[satansaloser2005]

Nienna, Glirdan's a wolf. A WOLF! LYNCH HIM!@

I'm surrounded by mad people.

[wilwarin538]

DL.

The narration will be up in two shakes.

[satansaloser2005]

Clearly this has all been planned by warriors from the village.

KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THEM!

(Also, what the heck? I really was trying to help Lottie avoid a first-Day lynch because I know they suck. And I figured Leggie was the cobbler and we could bus him quite easily. Alas, no. Darn.)


EDIT: Meep! x'd with the Moddess

[wilwarin538]

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Alirin walked further and further from the mushroom and continued down the garden path. After a time she could hear some voices and was curious at whom she would meet next, hoping the conversation would not be cut short due to fatalities.

She turned a bend in the path and came upon an odd house all covered in fur and with chimneys shaped like ears; the two windows and the door also looked like a face. Beside the house was an extremely long table scattered with dishes, and saucers, and cups, and teapots. Even though the table had many seats the three people sitting at it were all crowded close together. In the middle was a dormouse fast asleep, on one side was a hare and the other a man wearing a large hat, and the two were resting their elbows on the Dormouse as they spoke.

“No room! No room!” they cried out when they saw Alirin approaching. “There’s plenty of room!” she responded, rather rudely, and sat down at the head of the table closest to them, without waiting for an invitation.

They sat for a time without saying anything, which Alirin thought odd since they both seemed like the types who would like to chat. Just as she was about to start a conversation (though the weather would certainly not be the subject) the Hatter and the Hare began to sing together.

Twinkle, twinkle little bat!
How I wonder what you’re at!
Up above the world you fly,
Like a tea-tray in the sky.
Twinkle, twinkle - -

This is when the Dormouse shook himself and began singing in his sleep, “twinkle, twinkle, twinkle, twinkle...” and went on so long that the Hatter had to pinch him to stop.

Another moment of silence occurred and then the March Hare decided to speak. “I’m bored; perhaps the young lady will tell us a story.”

“I don’t think I know any!” Alirin responded, feeling alarmed at being put on the spot.

“Then the Dormouse shall!” the Mad Hatter decided as he pinched the little creature awake.

So the Dormouse awoke and began to tell his tale, with curious Alirin interrupting with questions all the while. “There were once three sisters who lived at the bottom of a well...”

“What did they live on?'

“Treacle.” after a moment of thought.

“But they couldn’t have, they’d have been ill.”

“And so they were. Very ill.” the Dormouse responded.

“But why did they live there?” the curious little girl asked.

“Because it was a treacle-well. And so the three little girls were learning to draw.”

“What did they draw?”

“Treacle.” he said, without hesitation.

“I need a clean cup!” the Hatter announced, “move a place over!” And so they all got up and moved a place over. Once they were settled the Dormouse continued.

“They also drew things that began with the latter M, like mouse-traps, and the moon, and muchness – you know, you say things are “much of a muchness” – and memory, and mobility, and mirrors and wolves.”

“Wolves doesn’t start with an M, it starts with a W.” Alirin interrupted.

“Yes, well a W is simply an M upside down; just as if you take the word “mouse” and turn it upside down you get the word “wolf”. So upside down I am actually a dorwolf.” He replied, as he started to dose off again.

Before Alirin could say anything about how little sense this made, the March Hare spoke up. “Well, I didn’t know that about you!” he exclaimed.

“Neither did I!” the Mad Hatter said. And so the two grabbed the sleeping Dormouse by the tail and held him upside down to see what would happen. After merely moments the little creature’s white fur began to turn brown, and large fangs were growing out of his mouth. Feeling afraid the Hare and the Hatter stuffed the transforming Dorwolf into a nearby teapot all full of tea. After holding down the shaking china for a few moments it quickly stopped.

Alirin got up now from her large chair and ran down the path, feeling quite alarmed by the evil dormouse and its sudden demise, and starting to think that perhaps she’d like to go home now.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


Dead
Fea - Red Queen - Cobbler - lynched Day 1
Boro - the Caterpillar - Shirriff - killed Night 2
Sally - the Dormouse - Wolf - lynched Day 2

Alive
Glirdan – Mad Hatter
Nogrod – Cheshire Cat
Wintywinty – Tweedledum
Isabellkya – White Rabbit
Mira – March Hare
Agan – Queen of Hearts
Inzil – King of Hearts
Shasta – Knave of Hearts
Lottie – Duchess
Nerwen – the Dodo
Legate – Jabberwocky
Morsul – the Mock Turtle
Nienna – White Queen
Skip – Humpty Dumpty
Lommy – the Gryphon
Greenie – White Knight
Brinniel – Tweedledee

It is now Night 3.

[wilwarin538]

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Alirin decided to stop running when she realised she was fairly far away from the mad tea party. She quickly found the garden path again and continued to walk, hoping that perhaps she could go home soon, or at least meet someone nicer and/or not dead. Soon she happened upon someone familiar.

“The Duchess! The Duchess! Oh my ears and whiskers! She’ll get me executed as sure as ferrets are ferrets! Where could I have dropped them?” the White Rabbit was saying as he searched the ground; it was clear he had lost something, so Alirin started looking around.

Soon the Rabbit noticed her. “Why, Mary Ann, what are you doing here? Run home this instant and fetch me a pair of gloves and a fan! Quick now!” So she did, heading in the direction that he nodded in, not wanting to correct him.

Soon she arrived at a little house with the name W. Rabbit written on the front door. She ran in without knocking because she was scared to bump into the real Mary Ann. Soon she found herself in a little room with a table by the window and, as she had hoped, there was a fan and a pair of gloves sitting on top of it. As she grabbed the gloves and fan she noticed that there was also a little bottle full of a strange liquid, just like the one from the hall with the little door.

Even though there was no label that said “drink me”, she decided to anyway, since she was hoping it would return her to her normal size. She drank down half and soon began to grow so large that she had to stick one arm out the window and a foot up the chimney!

“It was much pleasanter at home,” Alirin said to herself, “when one wasn’t growing bigger and smaller all the time or being ordered about by mice and rabbits. I almost wish I had never gone down that rabbit hole – and yet – it is rather curious here! Perhaps a book should be written about me.”

“Mary Ann! Mary Ann! Fetch me my gloves this moment!” she could hear the White Rabbit yelling from outside. That’s when he noticed that there was an arm sticking out his window and let out a little shriek. Suddenly there were pebbles being thrown at her so she reached out and tried to grab the White Rabbit to make him stop. She only just was able to grab him but he squiggled out and fell. All she heard was a loud thump.

Everything was silent so Alirin looked around the little room. This is when she noticed that some of the pebbles had turned to cakes! She grabbed one up and decided to eat it, figuring she could not get any larger. She ate it up and soon had shrunk down to 16 inches high.

Alirin ran down the stairs and out the door to see what had happened to the Rabbit. She looked around the outside of the house and came upon a large bush. She could see two white feet sticking out of the top of the bush, and it was clear they would not be moving. She had seen enough to know that she wanted to leave this place, so she continued to run down the path, hoping not to meet anyone else.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Dead
Fea - Red Queen - Cobbler - lynched Day 1
Boro - the Caterpillar - Shirriff - killed Night 2
Sally - the Dormouse - Wolf - lynched Day 2
Izzy - White Rabbit - Ordinary - killed Night 3

Alive
Glirdan – Mad Hatter
Nogrod – Cheshire Cat
Wintywinty – Tweedledum
Mira – March Hare
Agan – Queen of Hearts
Inzil – King of Hearts
Shasta – Knave of Hearts
Lottie – Duchess
Nerwen – the Dodo
Legate – Jabberwocky
Morsul – the Mock Turtle
Nienna – White Queen
Skip – Humpty Dumpty
Lommy – the Gryphon
Greenie – White Knight
Brinniel – Tweedledee

It is now Day 3. Posting may begin.

[Morsul the Dark]

Nienna, Glirdan's a wolf. A WOLF! LYNCH HIM!@

I'm surrounded by mad people.

This Post has been buzzing through my head All Day...

If Glirdan's innocent and we lynched him we'd just lynch Sally today... So what pay off would there be to lie? To last One more day?

I think Glirdan's a wolf... Sally I think was planning a False Seer reveal, just look at this post:


Inzil: Not a wolf. Plain and simple. Don't ask me how I know, I just do.


The move only makes sense to gain our trust... Gaining one day isn't worth it. I mean 4 out of 16.... 3 out of 16 still gives us lots of time still I just don't see a one day gain worth it.

[Inziladun]

Well, looks as if I backed the wrong horse there. Glirdan could technically still be a wolf, but I doubt it. It's not so much his words toward the end of yesterDay that make him look better (I still say his attack looked evil), but this from Sallywolf:


Nienna, Glirdan's a wolf. A WOLF! LYNCH HIM!@

That looks like real panic, trying to convince Nienna to vote Glirdan instead of her. If Nienna had done so and Glirdan was a wolf, the pack would be in the same situation they are now.

That said, I fully intend to vote Mira toDay, barring some major developments.

x/d with Morsul

[Morsul the Dark]

Yeah but Inzil I think a false seer reveal would gain her more time than the one day gained from the lynch.

I don't understand the motivation otherwise.

[Inziladun]

This Post has been buzzing through my head All Day...

If Glirdan's innocent and we lynched him we'd just lynch Sally today... So what pay off would there be to lie? To last One more day?

I think Glirdan's a wolf... Sally I think was planning a False Seer reveal, just look at this post:



The move only makes sense to gain our trust... Gaining one day isn't worth it. I mean 4 out of 16.... 3 out of 16 still gives us lots of time still I just don't see a one day gain worth it.

I guess it's possible. And now that I think of it, if Glirdan had been lynched and he was a wolf, Sally could be in some pretty good graces right now, even without a false Seer-reveal.
Still, I don't know that it's all that likely Glirdan is a wolf.

x/d with Morsul again

[Morsul the Dark]

I know this will be an unpopular move however I'm going with my gut on this one.

++Glirdan

It got me one wolf so maybe It'll get me another.

[Nienna]

Morsul, that line from Sally has been bothering me as well. I think that the chances are actually quite high that Glirdy is a wolf. She may have been thinking that if I switched and he was a wolf she would be redeemed or she could make a false seer-reveal and if she was lynched it could be passed off as the meaningless banter of a wolf trying to save herself.

Edit: x-ed

[Loslote]

Well, looks as if I backed the wrong horse there. Glirdan could technically still be a wolf, but I doubt it. It's not so much his words toward the end of yesterDay that make him look better (I still say his attack looked evil), but this from Sallywolf:




That looks like real panic, trying to convince Nienna to vote Glirdan instead of her. If Nienna had done so and Glirdan was a wolf, the pack would be in the same situation they are now.

That said, I fully intend to vote Mira toDay, barring some major developments.

x/d with Morsul

Let's try putting ourselves in Salwolf's shoes, working under the assumption that Glirdy is her packmate. She was about to die. She was currently two votes ahead of her packmate. If Nienna switched votes, Glirdy would die and she would look better come Morning because she'd helped kill a wolf. If Nienna didn't, her packmate would look better come Morning becaues a wolf had tried to kill him.

If he were an innocent, of course, she'd probably do the same, but my point is, don't write him off just because of what Sally said at endDay.

[Inziladun]

Let's try putting ourselves in Salwolf's shoes, working under the assumption that Glirdy is her packmate. She was about to die. She was currently two votes ahead of her packmate. If Nienna switched votes, Glirdy would die and she would look better come Morning because she'd helped kill a wolf. If Nienna didn't, her packmate would look better come Morning becaues a wolf had tried to kill him.

If he were an innocent, of course, she'd probably do the same, but my point is, don't write him off just because of what Sally said at endDay.

Like I said, now that I think about it, it's not as outlandish a possibility as I'd thought. That line from Sally didn't look staged to me, more like a spur-of-the-moment thing, which was what gave me pause.
The reason I voted Glirdan was that I thought his attack on Sally looked too aggressive and opportunitstic, and I really thought she'd probably turn out to be innocent.
Can it be that easy?

[Loslote]

Trust unreservedly:
Lottie

Trust nearly unreservedly:
Nog
Zil
Shasta
Nienna
Legate
Lommy

Trust more or less:
Brinn
Mira
Nerwen
Morsul
Skip

Unsure:
Wintywinty
Agan

Suspect:
Glirdan
Greenie

Will only vote those in the latter two categories. Preferably Glirdy.

EDIT: xed

[Loslote]

Like I said, now that I think about it, it's not as outlandish a possibility as I'd thought. That line from Sally didn't look staged to me, more like a spur-of-the-moment thing, which was what gave me pause.
The reason I voted Glirdan was that I thought his attack on Sally looked too aggressive and opportunitstic, and I really thought she'd probably turn out to be innocent.
Can it be that easy?

I think it can be that easy. I don't think Sally was planning on getting caught. Besides, the last two wolves might be using their two packmates as distractions in order to try to slip back into the village unnoticed. They probably won't be too eager to save Glirdy, no matter what role he is.

[Inziladun]

I think it can be that easy. I don't think Sally was planning on getting caught. Besides, the last two wolves might be using their two packmates as distractions in order to try to slip back into the village unnoticed. They probably won't be too eager to save Glirdy, no matter what role he is.

Looking at your 'trust' list, why do you 'trust more or less' Mira? I think she looks pretty furry at the moment.

[Loslote]

Looking at your 'trust' list, why do you 'trust more or less' Mira? I think she looks pretty furry at the moment.

Mostly because I've never thought of her as evil in the least. She's looked pretty good to me - but, now that you mention it, I can't recall anything that she's said or done. Maybe she needs to move back into my Unsure category...that thing just keeps growing. :rolleyes:

[Brinniel]

Morsul does make a good point and it's certainly a possibility. But it could go either way. It's also possible Sally was making a double bluff and he's in fact innocent.

Glirdan entered the Day late and went through the thread page by page. He started suspecting Sally from the very beginning, and I'm not sure it's clear whether he was aware she was ahead in votes when he was posting these opinions. Though if he were a wolf, I would suspect he would check the vote tally first....if innocent, maybe not. Would an evil Glirdan go after his packmate so eagerly from the beginning of his posts for the Day? If they were both wolves, it would make sense for them to go against each other at the very end since a wolf will be lynched either way. But I don't think Glirdan was a serious candidate until the end of the Day and he started suspecting Sally before that. I suppose if he saw the vote tally and decided she was a lost cause, he could've chosen to throw her under the bus to make himself look better.

Hmm...this is something to think about. It seems quite possible Glirdan is indeed a wolf, but it's definitely something we can't be certain of. It'd be a really good idea to review both Sally and Glirdan's posts from the last two Days. Unfortunately, I will have to pass that task onto someone else as I need to write a debate due tomorrow I haven't even started. I'll be available for the next several hours to make brief comments, but I just won't have any time to write anything very substantial toDay.

[Nerwen]

Like I said, now that I think about it, it's not as outlandish a possibility as I'd thought. That line from Sally didn't look staged to me, more like a spur-of-the-moment thing, which was what gave me pause.

Well, I'd say it's spur-of-the-moment, but possibly also staged:

Nienna's vote on Sally came in one minute before DL. Sally read and commented on it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna
++ Sally
What the....that doesn't even make sense. Not even commentary, just a vote?

You. Are. Bonkers.

Oh, and because Wilwa's bothering me....

++Glirdan

Judging from the time-stamps, she must have started typing the next post immediately after hitting "submit" on the previous one.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005
Nienna, Glirdan's a wolf. A WOLF! LYNCH HIM!@

I'm surrounded by mad people.

So, whatever her purpose, it's certainly a sudden change of tone. I don't think she'd been planning to do that all along– but she might have thought, "hey, since I'm going down, why not stage a 'desperate' last-second attack that will make my packmate look good?"

There's a question of whether Sally honestly believed she had a chance of changing the outcome at that point (right on DL).

I mean, I suppose she could have lost track of the time...

EDIT:wording

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As for Glirdan, I agree with the points Inzil brought against him late yesterday, especially the one about this quote -

This whole post is waaaaay too defensive. It's a game of Werewolf, suspicions will come up, why are you being overly defensive? The only possible explanation for that would be that you're a Wolf trying to save your hide, so to speak.

To me, this looks like a wolf eager to hammer a packmate.


But that's enough about Glirdan. I'm sure he'll be analyzed to death today anyway. I think I'm going to look at Greenie - and I'd like that promised explanation about her vote.

[Nerwen]

Sally I think was planning a False Seer reveal, just look at this post:

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005
Inzil: Not a wolf. Plain and simple. Don't ask me how I know, I just do.
The move only makes sense to gain our trust... Gaining one day isn't worth it. I mean 4 out of 16.... 3 out of 16 still gives us lots of time still I just don't see a one day gain worth it.

Might well be. But again, if her cry of "Glirdan's a wolf!" was meant to be the start of her "reveal", I have to wonder why she left it so late.

Did she expect more people to pick up on her Seer-hints than was in fact the case? Perhaps– look at this (shortly before DL):

#438
*is here...*

#439
Oh thank tea! Lol.

*snuggles you*

So. I thought you had some things you wanted to ask me, but you never did so I never answered. Unless I missed them. Sorry.

That, in turn, refers to this exchange earlier:

#398
Stop defending yourself and tell us who you think are wolves or who you find suspicious and why.

#399
I think you missed it (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627076&postcount=345). If you want more details I'm happy to give. :)

#402
Yes I did miss that... the formatting isn't eye-catching for me. I would love more details though.

#406
*waves at Nienna*

Don't worry about it. I did that post right as I thought I'd be leaving so I didn't format it all pretty; my apologies. What do you need clarification on?

From this, I'd guess Sally was counting on Nienna to catch-on that she was the "Seer"– compare to her surprise and indignation when Nienna voted her (see my previous post). (This is all assuming Nienna's innocent, of course– otherwise we'd have to put it down to a sense of betrayal, but that doesn't seem very likely at the moment).

EDIT:X'd with Shasta.

[wintywinty]

I have an essay to finish writing, but directly afterwards I am going to analyze all of Glirdy's interactions with Sally, and then branch off and see if there are any posts of Sally's linking him to another wolf.

[Brinniel]

So it seems Nienna's vote was indeed the deciding vote of the Day. If I counted correctly, the final tally was 8-6. Had Nienna voted for Glirdan instead, it would've been a tie at 7-7 and since Glirdan would've received the last vote, he would've been lynched. So what does this say about Nienna?

If Glirdan is a wolf, she could be anything. If Glirdan is innocent, it would seem more likely that Nienna is innocent. Of course, it is always possible a Nienna-wolf threw her packmate under the bus, though that would've been a bold move since she did have the opportunity to save her. She would have to be pretty confident her team would do just as well if not better without Sally, or believe that Sally would probably be lynched soon anyway so she might as well make herself look better. I'm just not sure how likely that scenario actually is.

Btw, no one has mentioned Izzy's death. My first thought is she was an easy kill because she didn't receive much attention from most players. Though I wonder if there could be more to it. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to look through her posts too...if only I had the time.

[Loslote]

Edited out smilies.

YYYYEEEHAAAA!

Because I don't know pretty much anything about the books, I'm going to be sensible/boring (depends on your point of view) and not even try to post in character (except for the next few sentences).

Okay things in the order in which they occurred to me.

I am your Queen and it's my business to order executions. You are not allowed to hurt me.
In other words, I am going to be mad if somebody kills me during the first few days/nights because I haven't played in a year and it's going to be long till I have time to play again. But this is just my personal opinion.

Just thought to tell you that I spent the Night walking around Helsinki dressed as a wolf because a friend wanted me to play one for her Little Red Riding Hood art project.

I always wonder why, if the mod starts a day early, they allow the wolves to PM at the same time that the village can talk. I would so want to seize the opportunity to do something silly with my fellows if I was in that situation.

Hahaha Fea.


Hey Shasta why does Fea's vote bother you? And why do you say 'still' when that's the first time you say it?

Brinn seems to be her normal self (ie she slightly rubs me the wrong way). But yeah she speaks sense, unlike most of the others.

By the way winty, we shouldn't edit our posts except to mark cross-posting. And it's true there are no reasons for votes yet, but that's why we're talking. Sooner or later somebody says or does something suspicious. Of course it helps if we have some corpses whose relations to living players we can observe, but first we need to get going.


No it doesn't make me evil, it only makes me unfaithful.

Yippee Greenie's tone strikes me as overly self-conscious! Nothing has indeed changed during my absence!


Usually when a newbie wolf enters the pack the older team members tell them to look just as new and ignorant and confused as they normally would and not to give away the slightest hint that they have received nightly counsel. And you have been a wolf enough times to know this is true. Or are you speculating about what you did last night?
What exactly made you draw attention to winty after two posts? It looks like a Nerwolf looking for an easy lynch.


Ahem what? Are you perchance giving advice to somebody?

The seer should keep in mind that they can't trust their dreams 100% because the cobbler appears as innocent. Last time I played in a game where the seer couldn't discern the cobbler's true identity, we wolves totally used it to our advantage and left him alive although he was supposedly a known innocent, and in the end we won because we could control his vote... Ah fond memories! But yeah that's why I think the cobbler should be killed as soon as possible (ie if the seer says 'X is an ordo' but we think 'X is damn suspicious' => lynch X), I've played in too many a game (three readily spring to mind) where people have said, 'Let's go for the most wolfish-looking person, we can deal with the cobbler later.' Well, when there are fewer and fewer people left, nobody wants to 'waste' a lynch on the cobbler and ta-da, soon the cobbler plays a crucial role in the evil victory.
Also, if the Cursed is turned (and the risk exists until they die and we see they were the Cursed), it practically destroys the seer's known innocent list.
I am saying this now as I've said this before, because it's better if the seer isn't sure than if the seer is too sure and wrong.


In a way yeah, but because people don't like random votes, it's likely they'd demand the said random-voters head on a platter for it.
Basically a wolf can vote in any way whatsoever, and playing a major role in the lynching of a wolf doesn't redeem anybody because wolves might as well sacrifice one for the pack to make the rest look good.

Okay I'm going to be here for, hmm, half an hour before I have to go.

Basic Day 1 post, as well as bringing up the cobbler issue - aka, Seer don't trust your dreams too much. Which makes sense.

Even if you don't understand why somebody does something, it doesn't make it silly. And what does it matter if they 'waste' their retractable votes early on? After all it's the wolves who benefit the most from them, and if everybody used theirs at once, we would eliminate the risk of wolf-organised lynches later.
I don't claim Fea's or winty's vote make them innocent, but Morsul is awfully quick to jump on them with flimsy reasoning.

Using the retractable votes quickly might be worth some discussion... Personally I would be happy with everybody using theirs as soon as possible. Innocents vote alone, but the wolves, having a way to communicate, can use their votes in a much broader scale. I seem to remember a game (phantom's last one, for those who know. In addition to their normal daily vote, every player had 10 extra votes they could use whenever they wished) where pretty much everybody else but the wolves used some of their votes during the first days. The wolves saved all or most of theirs for later and won because they could use their extra votes against the village all at once.
And when there is something like 6 people left, two of whom wolves, it does make a difference if the wolves can retract and the others cannot.


I was honestly expecting people would jump on my comment like 'You there are you trying to undermine the seer's authority and sow discord, you're a wolf!' so does the fact that you liked my point mean you're a wolf?


Yeah but there are some things that remain pretty much the same from game to game, among them that newbie wolves should behave as if they had no pack backing them up. And I don't think the "newbie or newbie wolf" question is a problem yet - thus far it's just a question, but you're trying to make it a problem. So we lynch winty and she/he was an innocent, and what have we left? An easy lynch and nothing else.


Mmh no, I fail to see a connection there. I think/thought you were talking about different things.

(Yay I had missed playing with you, too! <3)


Trust me, if I was looking for an easy day 1 lynch after a year's WW break, it would not be you.
Yeah his vote was random, but he is a newbie and at least I am willing to forgive newbies for things I wouldn't forgive for example people like you on day 1. It's alright to remark on it, but I think you were pushing it a tad too hard. Making it a bigger issue than it really was.


Okie dokie, I'm glad to hear that. And I mean we should go for the most suspicious person, regardless of whether we think they're a wolf or the cobbler. It's better to lynch we're-sure-she's-the-cobbler than we're-almost-sure-she's-a-wolf.


*hugs* It was beautiful work.
(Sorry I'm just talking about previous games all the time!)

Oh and people when quoting a vote post, is there any chance you could take off the higlights? It's a bit disturbing, especially when we have to do quick vote counts.

Hey winty have you played werewolf before on other forums? If yes you'll come to find that Barrowdowns werewolf is slightly more in-depth (or so I am told) than most others.


Thanks for saving my voice and speaking my thoughts aloud, dear husband.


Your conclusion = it was suspicious? I see but a plus-minus-zero situation.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't remember who's playing which character, so it would be nice if people used the player names instead of/in addition to character names in their posts.


I had no way of knowing you were talking about it.


Ah so was your vote then based on a nightly discussion with Brinn who said, 'Don't be too friendly towards me!'?


I would be darn happy if it was, but alas it is not.

As some of you might be aware of, the deadline is 04.30 my time which means I'm going to vote in a couple of hours.

Starts the "dump retractables, kthnxsbye" debate and responds to other posts (in what I must admit is a reasonable way).

Innocent
Inzil. I agree with him about winty's vote and thus far he hasn't given me a reason to suspect him.
Lommy. I like her and she's reasonable and has a nice fluffy nose.
skip. I'm just so darn happy he's playing at last that I wouldn't vote for him today even if he revealed he was a wolf. Thus far he hasn't given much of a reason for me to worry though.
Legate. Alright enough.
Brinniel. There's always something about her style that makes me suspect her, however I don't find her overly suspicious at the moment and I approve of her trying to take the discussion out of IC banter.
Nienna. I don't think we've ever got past day 1 with both of us being alive, so just because of that I'll refrain from voting for her today. But she seems innocent enough anyway.

Guilty
Mira. Suspecting newbies is just way too easy, and at the same time she clears Fea's vote (despite the 'on a more serious note' start, the whole comment looked like a joke though).
Morsul. I don't like his reasoning, he seems way too quick to jump to conclusions. But maybe it's just his style. Out of curiosity, how many games have you actually played in, Morsul?
Lottie. I didn't really see any issue with Lottie's earlier behaviour (granted I just skimmed through her first posts because I was in a hurry and didn't think they contained anything very important). However I disagree with her later comments on people - although I don't know if it's because of the content or the style they're written. And that moves her from Nonsense onto the Guilty list. It feels sort of weird that she should make an analysis of a player (Glirdy) who has only posted some random IC banter, like, who makes an analysis on day 1 when there's so little to go on? And hahaha it's sort of grotesque to use the abbreviations WW and SS for the newbies.

Nonsense
Glirdy. Content? Where's the actual content?
Nog. The first one to say he was uneasy about Lottie's behaviour, wasn't he? For relatively little reason, I think ("infamous mode of "no bad person, even insane one, would do that kind of a thing").
winty. Newbie so I won't vote for her/him today. I think people read too much into his/her vote.
sally. Content? Where's the actual content?
Shasta. It's a worse welcome than voting that you suspect me because of my natural lynch-happiness.
Fea. I'm alright with her vote.
Green. She's another one whose tone always sets me off and I always think she's too laid-back to have the village's best interests in mind, but so far I don't havean opinion of her.
Nerwen. I think her reaction to winty's vote was exaggerated and it looks as if she was looking for an easy lynch, but Nerwen and I also have a history of being on each other's throats (usually it starts with me on Nerwen's throat) so I'm going to wait for more evidence (like the word terrible) before making a judgement.

Non-show
Boro
Isabell

**


I knew you wouldn't like it! Actually I was about to end it with *waits for Nog to come and tell her she's undermining the seer's authority* but didn't do it.
I think this is just one of our differences in views because I seem to recall having argued with you before about similar stuff...


Nope for me it isn't. What if I died today or in the night and nobody else had thought of it (if it's not of any great strategic importance, I prefer to say what I mean to say right away and not wait for a more relevant situation that may never come)? And if the seer can't fully trust their dreams, it's better they keep it in mind from the start, not only if/when they come out with their name list. I have won a game as a wolf because the seer trusted the cobbler was innocent, and if there's something I love, it's making my best so other wolves can't use my tricks to win when I'm not on their side.

I'm most likely going to vote for either Morsul or Mira today.

...first off I can't help but bring up that she puts Sally, Glirdy, and Greenie in her Nonsense list. Secondly I will, however, note that she is making sense in her cobbler-seer-dream response.

Greenie's last post moves her up towards my Innocent list because I agree with her (actually about everything) and she calls me lovely. However I wonder too if I should be worried that I don't suspect her, because usually when I do she's innocent.

Trusts Greenie more.

Ookay I've never played with Morsul before so I don't know how he's supposed to behave, but I don't like him nonetheless and he's still a candidate for my vote.

I think Greenie and Legate and Lommy do have a point about Lottie and I might vote for her too but then again I'm unsure because I don't know her style.


I seem to recall seeing her post on Facebook, trying to convince TGEW to join and telling that if she did three Alaskans would be playing... so I assume that's the explanation.


Hahaha thanks!

And yeah sally you need to read closer because I'm not going to go through the pains of explaining it all again to you.

Says she might vote Morsul or maybe me; responding to Sally.

Lommy that's unfair you know how much I like crows!


I think in this case innocent = ordo. Both are seen as ordos.


That's true and that's why everybody should remember that a seer-dreamed innocent is not necessarily innocent after all...

Anyway Izzie seems innocent enough.

Morsul if everyone else calls your 'scientific method' knee-jerk, have you perchance thought there might be something wrong with your definition?

Now I'll go brew some mint leaves and will be soon back to vote.

Makes a good point to Morsul (mebbe you should take this into account, dear? Just sayin'...) and restates her seer-dream-cobbler point.

Hey Nog you posted the same post twice.


Sorry but would you care to speak English that's understandable even to a non-native speaker so I don't have to spend a twice longer time reading your post than I would need for anyone else?

As you might have noticed I didn't play in last game. And it's perfectly alright to point out what you find odd, but your thought process in the post I found suspicious seemed half-hearted and lazy and somehow far-fetched too (the part that Lommy or someone else pointed out). Give better reasons for your suspicions and I might change my mind about you.

But yeah as for now

[*highlight]++Mirandir[/highlight*]

because thus far she seems the most suspicious to me.

oh and

[*highlight]--Mirandir[/highlight*]
[*highlight]++Mirandir[/highlight*]

as I dislike retrackies anyway, and this is what I think everyone should do because otherwise the wolves will probably use them against us in the end.

I'll hang around here till I've finished my tea and will go to sleep then.

Votes Mira, then follows her own advice and dumps her retractables.

She went to sleep, but I think it's pretty obvious Greenie meant Lottie was the only one she had any valid points on. At least her earlier posts suggest it.

Responds about confusion about Greenie's vote post.

Fea - Lottie
winty - Brinn
Lommy - Lottie
Boro - Glirdy
Green - Lottie
Morsul - winty
Agan - Mira

Lottie-3, Mira-1, winty-1, Glirdy-1, Brinn-1

Retraction left: everybody but Agan & sally

I think we really should keep track on who has used their retraction and who hasn't, and that everyone should use them asap, because as I've said they are more useful to the wolves than to us.

Vote count and reiteration that people should dump their retractables.

Just returned back to my old self because I like it better and recognise it faster.

Responding about her avie switch.

Imagine some innocents, a couple of wolves. The innocents have used (most of) their retractions, the wolves haven't. The wolves can vote for whomever is the most convenient for them and then, when most other votes have been given, unite and direct their votes towards an innocent who is lynched, and nobody else can do anything. Because I can see that scenario, I'd rather eliminate it before the wolves have even a chance to try it.


Mmh yeah but the wolves have the advantage of being able to talk in private. That way they can make plans about using the votes, among other things, whereas whatever we others say, the wolves see it too. And the wolves are fine with killing anybody but one of them, while it's not quite so simple for us. So even if the retractable votes might be useful for us, we can't really base our plans on them...



Mostly because of this comment though:

Basically, "It's suspicious because it could go either way."


Might happen. However it's always best for the seer to not reveal during the last-minute voting frenzy.
Also, retractable votes and the 'who receives the highest number of votes last' rule are a bad combination in the case of a tie because if a wolf (or somebody else) wants to drive a lynch, they wait till the last possible moment, retract and vote again.


Haha sorry. On one hand I'm sorry to let go of my previous avvie (a Goya painting ♥) but on the other hand... Scar is Scar, and worth another ♥.

Okay I'll go to sleep now, night babies.

More retractable dumping encouraging.

Okay I don't have too much time now...

*is sad about Boro's death*


Me too but I'm happy she was lynched in the end. That's what happens when you think you know better what Fea is doing...


No s*it Sherlock!
I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs. However it's likely that the wolves spend more time looking for possible connections than the innocents. But on the other hand, Lottie might have been a relatively easy lynch today... So I don't really know.


Good morning Brinn! And to be honest I'm quite surprised that Lommy is posting as early as at 11.

Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.
And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot (by the way last night I had a dream I was a wolf. Inzil was too).


I'd like to know that too (and not only because I'm one of her wolves) and I would totally be suspecting her because of it if she wasn't the other Shirriff... Because I have yet to see a day 1 when someody pins down all the wolves at once (oh wait I did that in Mith's game! But granted it was jokingly).

Okay a proper look at yesterday now.

Says the *is sad about Boro's death* line that I still don't like (I never like being sad about the Night kill; I think it screams wolf, but I can see where some wouldn't); says she'll have to look at Sally herself (understandable) but then also says "And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot" which I find strange and somewhat suspicious...then understandably asks for clarification on my suspicions.

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

Um...okay. Looking more closely, I can see your point there, and this really does seem like a frustrated innocent...

What do you mean by this?


Yeah I know, it wasn't an accusation (of not posting enough, not of wolvery), just a remark that there was nothing I considered important in your posts. And the pleasure is mine.

#128: I don't think I'm on the same wavelength with Nog, there are just some differences in the way we think (seems to happen always), but I think he looks quite good for the time being. If he was a wolf, I don't think he would've brought up Fea's behaviour (does the cursed know about her status, could Fea be the cobbler etc).


What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.


That's what I think of her too - always. I try to be careful not to suspect her every time because of it, but she and I aren't on the same wavelength, either... Although hmm I should probably check some old games (just to get some statistics) because there have been times I've decided not to suspect her simply because she doesn't feel right to me and she's turned out to be a wolf.


That's the way alliances are made, darling.

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.
He also considered Fea but didn't vote for her simply because he didn't think she was a wolf, and then attacked the Lottie-wagoners, saying the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?


Izzy as I remember her has never been one of the loudmouths, but I don't know if that's changed during my absence.

Hmm reading Glirdan's post (#142) and it seems my comment about the unlikeliness of pinning all the wolves on day 1 can be more or less ignored. Although I still think it's darn unlikely, and it's dangerous to be so convinced so early.

I think Izzy looks good.

I would love to see more substance from sally. Not too fond of her at the moment.


It will not actually help us, but if nobody had their retractions, it wouldn't help the wolves either, and that's what I'm after... However I see I'm not getting much support. Quite a few people have said they want to save their votes because they've been in a situation before where their vote has been the decisive one. Might well be there's a wolf among them, but I have no time to pursue that further now.


Who has said that? I don't disagree, I just can't for the life in me remember having seen anyone talk about Brinn before your vote.

I like Glirdan for now.

I have to go now (going to see a play with a friend, yay!), will be back some time in the evening.

Basic summary post in which she sort of suspects Zil and doesn't suspect Izzy or Glirdy. No one suspected Izzy, though, so that really doesn't say much at all.

Okay I'm seriously going to kill Lommy if she's a wolf because I love her vote analysis post and generally seem to agree with her quite much.


And I don't like Lottie the Known Innocent being convinced I'm a baddie with flimsy and subjective "I've already decided you're a wolf and do my best to pick up only those things you've done that back up my theory" reasons. If she wasn't a known innocent I'm pretty certain wouldn't be picking a fight with her but attacking her in return.


Yeah, on that I agree, and I suppose I make too big a deal of it but once I got started, it just felt natural to carry on with it. I still think it would be good if no one had their retraction left in a couple of days, but I see that's very unlikely to happen (and in that light, it was a mistake to waste mine, but I am a woman of my word). Still, those who haven't used their retraction should be kept an eye on, and not just during the last days when it can really make a difference because then it's already too late (the wolves can always come up with an excuse to save their retraction for a few days).
I am not telling anybody to do it, but I think it's what an innocent would do...

Hey Zil sorry if I've missed something but I don't think I got an answer to my question:


I think knowing sally's role would shed some light on other people, but although I have nothing against her death, I don't like Morsul's vote. It doesn't seem genuine, it looks as if he was intentionally trying to come up with reasons to vote for her. Okay Nienna phrased it better than me, I basically agree with her.


Yes in the same way as when a wolf you haven't been suspecting dies. It didn't occur to you that they were a wolf so you're surprised, although in hindsight you should've (or could have) guessed. But I don't think that's a very important issue.

Hey Nienna you didn't answer my question:



The thing is, nobody said that you have good insights and you're a very good player/wolf - during the day. Winty says it's something many have said, but who has he heard it from if no one has said so here? Lottie how much have you been talking to him about the Downs, and have you praised Brinn to him?
It might be newbie behaviour, but I think it's pretty darn suspicious newbie behaviour. And although Brinn brought up other points against him (you can't vote for someone early and explain it by things "others have said"), her reaction to winty's post is somewhat lesser than I imagined it would be. It looks as if she was giving him advice, but if they were fellows why did he vote for her then? Of course it's possible she's nothing but an experienced player instructing a newbie, regardless of their roles...

Understandably is annoyed by me (I am sorry, dear, I plead temporary insanity due to sickness...flimsy excuse, I know :rolleyes:) and ponders about Brinn and WW.

Okay thanks. I haven't changed my mind about her ww suspicion, but I'd like to hear more from her.


Nope, they can do it as early as on day 1 if their fellow comes under heavy suspicion (or if they think there's no chance that their fellow is lynched). It's happened before and will continue to happen because it's just so darn convenient for the wolves.


Seriously it was a newbie's first post.


Not the same thing because their styles are different. Morsul's struck me as opportunistic whereas Lottie was mostly just too over-confident to my liking.


No it wouldn't. If Nerwen had given me a reason to suspect her beyond her treatment of ww, I would have - regardless of my role.


Me too and that's why I said Lommy and Mac may laugh at me (they both have been targets for my forceful and unjust attacks more than once :p).


Nope because as long as the game is running I'm not going to talk of it outside of the game thread. Who knows, I might be the seer who just dreamed of Wolfziladun, or it might be a lie I told for a reason unknown to you. :p
In any case, I can't remember anything more about the dream so I don't think I will even after the game is over.


Yes but what was so suspicious about the Lottie-wagon in the first place? You just decided it was fishy but when looking at the Lottie-voters, none of them was suspicious enough to receive your vote. Usually people and their reasons for voting make a bandwagon suspicious, not the other way round.


By itself it's not, but I think it's far more likely that the wolves use their retraction to kill an innocent than the other way round. Yeah I know they can be useful to the innocents too, but their benefit for the wolves is more imminent.


What I don't disagree about is that Brinn is a good player and, if a wolf, asset to the wolf team (I've been a wolf with her and heck she's brilliant). I can hardly disagree (in the sense I understand the word) on what ww claims to be the reason for his vote.


Most of the things, I would say.


I don't like that comment. I wasn't planning to do it, but that looks too much like a threat. Yeah yeah I might be totally overestimating how important the wolves consider the retrackies, but still.

I think sally should be suspected more often if it gets her to speak seriously.

Makes pretty good points...

GUILTY
Morsul. I still don't like his reasoning but I don't know if I'm reading too much into it because apparently everyone else (who has played with him before) is fine with it.

Mira. I don't have anything on her except for her weird treatment of winty, but she's staying here until she gives me a reason to consider her innocent. If she's a wolf, I'll be almost convinced Inzil is not.

winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly.

Inzil. I don't like his comment about the Lottie wagon. Plus he seems to trust Lottie enough to consider her suspects (or all of them except for, conveniently, Greenie) serious enough to go through them himself but still thinks it's appropriate of me to ask Lottie why she's so sure... If he's a wolf I think Greenie should be looked closely at, and the other way round (I'm just afraid it would be too obvious though). And of course knowing his role would shed some light on Mira's. Actually I might well vote for him today.

INNOCENT
Lottie. Although I do think her suspicion of me is bad (obviously since I'm innocent) and she's generally too convinced about people's guilt too early.

Lommy. Speaks sensibly and things I can easily agree on. Of course there's a chance she's fooling me magnificently but at the moment I'm not too concerned about that, because she really seems innocent.

Isabell. Speaks sense and I find myself agreeing with her, although I'm not sure if I should be worried because I also have a history of mistrusting her when she's innocent (ie always, except for her first game, but it doesn't count because we were fellows).

Nienna. She is sensible and has a generally innocent air.

skip. I think he looks quite innocent, and of course I might misjudge him but I don't think he'd ask if the wolves knew the cobbler's identity if he was one.

Legate. Had a small dispute with Inzil, I don't know what to make of it but I'd like to know Inzil's role for sure soon. Seems quite innocentish.

EITHER
Nog. Still looks innocent enough, and he nailed Fea which I don't think a wolfish Noggy had done (hmm except that one of my first lessons was that Wolfgrod does anything that makes him look innocent, even at a cost to his pack). Okay I don't think he's guilty but I'm not convinced about his innocence either so he's here.

sally. Seems to be today's favourite lynch target. Mostly banter and that's almost enough of a reason for me to vote for her. Plus her death would shed light on other people. I think her reaction to being suspected was outraged in an innocentish way, though.

Glirdan. Haven't formed an opinion, and because I want to go to sleep soon it will have to wait.

Shasta. See Glirdan.

Greenie. No new material, people have brought up points against her but I will have to look at it, and I don't think her vote was so bad.

Brinniel. Innocentish and sensible but her reaction to winty's reasoning didn't sit quite right with me. Will have to see more.

Nerwen. She's the last because I'm at the moment rather undecided about her. I didn't like how she jumped on winty's day 1 vote (come on he's a newbie), but apart from that she's been innocentish. However she's Nerwen so you never know.

Again, can't help but notice that she doesn't give an opinion on Sally, Glirdy, and Greenie...

How about you first explain to me...

...why his vote is more suspicious because it could go either way? That was my main issue about your post, not the fact that you defended Fea.
Do you also want me to explain again why I suspected Morsul more than Lottie?

Oh and do you have any other reason to consider voting for me but that I suspect you?

And wintywinty now that you're apparently here, could you please answer my question? Who said Brinn is a good player?

Reasks WW a good question; responds to questions.

Oh. I'm sorry. It was intended to scream somebody who likes Boro and is happy to play with him for the first time in a year and doesn't approve of him getting killed after just one day.


Yeah because I suspected Mira. Correct me if I'm wrong but although I also suspected you, I don't think I was ever calling for your death.
And because people didn't have an opinion about what I said, I wasn't being helpful? I wasn't contributing but tried to look as if I were? Sorry but that's ridiculous.


I doubt it. You've already decided I'm a wolf.


Okay in that case I really wonder what to make of his comment, and I might vote for him because of it.

...okay, you weren't wrong, I was. I'm sorry, again. And this does look like a frustrated innocent...

...in fact that's what I kind of have to conclude. So, all in all, my anti-Agan crusade yesterDay was mostly insane. There was mostly just that one "she keeps putting Sally, Glirdy, and Greenie in her unsure categories" argument and the fact that I don't like people saying that they're sad about the Night kill. So bump Agan to the "trust more or less" category. Sorry about that, Agan.

EDIT: xed since Nerwen

[Loslote]

Btw, no one has mentioned Izzy's death. My first thought is she was an easy kill because she didn't receive much attention from most players. Though I wonder if there could be more to it. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to look through her posts too...if only I had the time.

I was actually going to, but decided to do my Aganasis first. No one suspected Izzy. Not a one. She was never going to be lynched; she was quiet, and thus untraceable; she was really the obvious choice to be Night killed. Also, the wolves might have thought she was some kind of gifted, but that's stretching it. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh, and...

Sally's a she. Not a he. Just sayin'.

[A Little Green]

First, some comments on toDay. I'm not sure how much weight we can give to Sally's last words about Glirdy being a wolf. To me, at least, she seemed rather more like a wolf who knows she's going to die trying to make a mess before she goes. Looked at in that way, I don't think we should jump into conclusions based on anything she said - regardless of whether they are conclusions for or against Glirdy's guilt.

Again, can't help but notice that she doesn't give an opinion on Sally, Glirdy, and Greenie...I think you are a bit off in this argument. At least as far as my werewolf-experience goes, few wolves actually put all their fellows in the "no opinion" -category - or any same category, for that matter. A wolf is almost always a tad paranoid, and wold prefer to avoid cramming all his fellows under the same heading just so as not to make all their names appear together. Besides, a bit of wolf-on-wolf suspicion - or even open wolf-on-wolf fraternizing - is actually safer for a wolf than just carefully not saying anything about one's fellows. And, in addition to that, I've never seen an Aganwolf not pulling off any kind of wolf-on-wolf thing.

Moving on to yesterDay next... (I also have a gigantic - well, sort of - post coming, I checked people's attitudes to Sally from the two previous Days!)

[A Little Green]

...Why wouldn't it be required?I thought I had already given one, and meant that if elaboration on it was required I would do that later. Basically, I voted for you because your vote from Day 1 looked strategically clean (voting for someone that has been somewhat suspected but hasn't gained any votes that far - not causing discord or attracting attention nor yet getting accused of bandwaggoning).
If he were a wolf, do you really think he'd try to get me to *stop* blindly ignoring suspicious behavior? No. He'd be happy with the known innocent expressing trust for him, and unless I did have the rest of his packmates pegged (which, if Shasta's a wolf, I'm way mixed up anyay ) and he'd be fine with me chasing down innocents.I'm sorry, I think I missed something. Could you explain what you mean by this?
As has been noted, this might seem sinister in the way ww sticks with the two candidates that are (apparently) the lynch du jour. Perhaps though, he's now following Lottie's lead as the de facto innocent, at least someone who isn't going to intentionally try to lead us to an innocent lynch. That's why I've been mainly looking at her suspects.That, I think, is a very dangerous path to take (wow, doesn't that sound epic!) because knowing that Lottie has our best interests at heart isn't saying anything about how accurate her suspicions are. Throughout WW history there have been innocents who bark at the wrong tree for an entire game though they have the village's best interests at heart.
And if Nerwen has been making 'great contributions', what's the cause for worry about her?I don't like this one, either. A wolf can very well make great contributions - a Nerwolf certainly can - and off-handedly dismissing the possibility makes it seem like you are grasping at straws to suspect whoever it was who talked about the great contributions. (I've lost the spot where I found this quote, should check that, probably...)

Now, off to write my Sally-post..

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Regarding your last quote, about Inzil, Greenie, I think I remember that quote. It was Inzil responding to someone else (don't remember who) who said that Nerwen was making good contributions, but later suspected her in the same post (it might have been Glirdan, but I could be wrong about that, it's 3 in the morning and I'm tired).

Even if you lost where you found that quote, the fact that you took that particular quote and quoted it in that sort of context bothers me, and seems like you're scrambling for a reason to suspect Inzil...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ugh, on second thought, I think I may be misreading what you said, but wrapping my mind around it at the moment is beyond me. x_x I'll have a look at it tomorrow - until then, just don't pay attention to my previous post. :-P

Or, alternatively, Greenie, maybe you could explain yourself a different way? That'd be great if you weren't too busy. :)

[A Little Green]

Or, alternatively, Greenie, maybe you could explain yourself a different way? That'd be great if you weren't too busy.Explain myself about what? I'm confused. :p The quotes from yesterDay I picked during the Night phase when I was reading what happened after I went to sleep, I saved them on a Word file and of course wasn't bright enough to note who Inzil responded to.

[Thinlómien]

(note: written about an hour ago, but Greenie had the net, so I only got to post it now...)

I think it looks like Glirdan was Sally's fellow wolf, not because of any seer reveal plot (I don't believe in that) but just because it looks like that. I think Sally could've tried to make Glirdan look better - or at least make us really divided about him - by attacking him so strongly in the end. What he said about Zil makes me feel it's pure bluff meant to confuse us, and means Zil's probably innocent. She wouldn't have dared to highlight two of her fellows that way. Also, Glirdan's attack on Sally was very wolf-on-wolvish, I think Sally's mates would've known she's in trouble and used that to their own advantage... (not necessarily all of them, but at least one or two. Which makes me think, ha, we have only lynched a cobbler and a wolf this far. Go us!)

One more thing about Glirdan - although he looks very bad now, we should concentrate on other people too. There are two more wolves out there, and also, (let me be the Captain Obvious here) we might be wrong about Glirdy. Speaking of which, Morsul, I don't like your vote, not because it's for Glirdan but because it's given so early. It's foolish to vote before anything has basically happened, had you waited closer to the deadline, you'd have had one more Day's evidence to think about...

And why's Izzy dead? She herself probably nailed it yesterDay, she said no one's really been suspecting her. And she could've also given the wolves gifted vibes, or even looked like the seer to them. When someone has time, it'd make sense to go through her posts.

And by the way, I think it's rather amusing that the person who seems the fishiest to me by far is our known innocent. :D Now I'm off to reply some stuff from yesterDay...


edit: xed with all Greenies and Shastas

[Thinlómien]

(note: finished a few minutes ago, just fyi)

And how many of the times you've suspected me have I actually been evil?
Why such frustrated/defensive tone quite out of nowhere? And I cannot reply your question right now because I have no idea, I would say "a few times", maybe.

Winty's kind of single-minded posting yesterDay baffles me. Either he is a confused newbie who wants to focus on stuff he can easily grasp, or then he's a wolf trying to hide by only talking about easy topics. Nevertheless, it's quite odd, but I understand this game really isn't probably the best one for anyone new with a few unusual roles and a horde of players who use weird nicknames and abbreviations of each other and game terms... Well, I'm glad Winty and Skip have been asking stuff, and hope they continue to do so in future.

Lommy – there were a few moments when I have been slightly worried, but generally looks like innocent Lommie. I somewhat miss the flip-flopping though...
Then you haven't been reading my posts closely enough. :p

Nogrod is kind of slipping under my radar, which is creepy.

Glirdan was really very defensive when he came back. Ok, he was suspected, but not really *that* much then yet. Later, he also exhibits the funny wolvish tendency to become annoyed when he is suspected for the *wrong* reasons. :D (I admit, though, that innocents can become fed up with baseless accusations too but wolves often seem genuinely offended, which is amusing.)

Sally's last list? I think she knew she was going down by then. It's weird she says about Glirdy
He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say "Kill! Kill". He is, however, popping onto other people's suspicions and things, which seems very wolfish the way he's doing it. Wolf? Maybe!
and then later becomes so convinced of his guilt. I hold onto my opinion that her way of highlighting Inzil makes him look innocent. Otherwise it's difficult to judge her sayings, I think she was being a bit wishy-washy on purpose. What she said about Shasta
First of all, no, I didn't follow his suspicions, I had my own. *is just saying* Anyway he's been acting quite strange lately and had some opinions on people that I think have been formed for the wrong reasons. Wolf, mehbe? *nods*
doesn't look too wolf-on-wolfy though.

Mira's vote was - like many have said before me - really fishy. Could a wolf make such an obvious throwaway vote? Yes, but an innocent could too. Doesn't make me any less suspicious of Mira, definitely.

++ Sally

I thought for a moment of joining Lottie's Glirdy-wagon just to make sure there is a real choice, but then I realised I'm not in that comfort-zone where I could say that they are as suspicious and it's just the same which one we lynch. I do suspect Glirdy, but I do think we have better chances of getting a wolf with Sally. Especially looking at her latest posting...
If Glirdan is innocent after all, then Nogrod looks better because of this.

I'd like to got through all Sally's posts, not just the latter half of yesterDay. It would be educational, but I'm not sure I'll have the time. Maybe someone else could do it? Not that I would necessarily trust someone else's analysis... And someone could also look at what others have said about Sally...

Brinn looks better now, in my opinion. She seems more laid-back and open to new thoughts, and she makes a lot of sense (although she always does).

By the way I think the fact someone who voted Glirdy died slightly points at his guilt. Why? Because if Glirdan was innocent, I think the wolves would think voting him over Sally the wolf (especially on the last minute, like Izzy!) would look suspicious (from the wolf pow since they know Glirdy's alignment) and could be used against those people, so it'd make more sense to kill a Sally-voter since they have been part of butchering a wolf and thus look better. That is, if there was no other motive for killing Izzy, which there well might have been, though.


xed with the same ones as before

[skip spence]

So, Sally was a wolf. Well spotted, friends! And this is very good, because now we have a little more information (useful or not) to work with. I'll attempt a little list having reviewed Day 2.

Glirdan – He came after Sally early, long before it became clear that either one of these two would die. I believe Glirdan proactively participating in lynching Sally is a sign of his innocence although not proof. At this point only a very shrewd wolf would actively go after a fellow wolf, because, let’s face it, a wolf lynched is a step towards a village victory, and an innocent lynched is a step away from that, there’s no getting around that simple fact. A wolf jumping on the bandwagon, yes why not, but actively working to make that bandwagon happen, I doubt it. I could be wrong and maybe that’s everyday business in the ww-world, but to me that feels like too much of a gamble for uncertain profits. For the moment Glirdan has redeemed himself.

But what would the three other wolves do when it became apparent that their pack-mate was in trouble, as was the case with Sally? They can’t make any obvious rescue-attempts, because that would cast them in a bad light if or when Sally’s identity becomes known. But they would try to help their fellow if they could do it more subtly, as long as that help is easily explained away as being motivated by other factors. By voting for a new lynch-candidate, or by voting and arguing for a candidate that may seem suspicious to innocents but is known to be innocent by the wolves that help may be contrived with the aid of some luck. No such luck last night though, wolfies?


Nogrod – Cheshire Cat
Has not been on my mind much because I've seen little to make me worried. Will try to review his behaviour later.

Wintywinty – Tweedledum
Behaves a little erratic. Not sure what this means yet. Did vote Sally at a fairly crucial point.

Mira – March Hare
Suspiciously quiet and non-committing. A throw-away vote on day 2. A wolf? Could be...
Agan – Queen of Hearts
Got my eyes on her. It is curious that when Agan started the 'All innocent people should drop their retractable vote'-campaign, Sally was the first, and this far the only person to follow suit. Was this a plan that back-fired? Her voting-record is also a little suspect, especially on day 2 when she voted Inzil while downplaying the Sally suspicion somewhat. Could that be a careful attempt at helping a wolf-mate out of a tight spot? Maybe, maybe not.

Inzil – King of Hearts
Tough call. Voted for Glirdan when Sally's back was against the wall which may cast him into a bad light, but he could also have been on a honest wolf-hunt.

Shasta – Knave of Hearts
Non-committing and suspicious. Keeps a low profile with two throw-away votes.

Lottie – Duchess
Seem to be throwing a lot of wild accusations around. Was right about Sally though. Was that just dumb luck or brilliant perception?

Nerwen – the Dodo
Has been quiet and is hard to read. Voted Sally at an early stage on Day 2 which makes her look good.

Legate – Jabberwocky
Has shown commitment in the voting, not throwing away his votes but going after people who are likely to become lynched and also did vote Sally at a point when it mattered. I like that: an honest villager knows that people must die in order for us to to win the game.

Morsul – the Mock Turtle
Not too worried about Morsul at the moment. Voting and behaviour suggest innocence.

Nienna – White Queen
Had the chance to save Sally at the last minute but chose to pull the trigger. Was also one of the first, perhaps the first, to raise suspicions on Sally. Probably an honest villager.

Lommy – the Gryphon
Not sure where I have Lommy. Nothing overtly suspicious about her. Voted for Glirdan on Day 2.

Greenie – White Knight
Slightly suspicious I must say. May be busy in real life but I'd like to see her participating at bit more eagerly in the hunt.

Brinniel – Tweedledee
Has looked good and honest. Voted Sally at a crucial stage.

Will try to have a more detailed look at some people later.

[A Little Green]

Okay, here comes my massive Sally-post - being a quick analysis on people's reactions to Sally. This post doesn't include everything that has been said about Sally (no banter posts & no posts that give no actual information).

Nogrod
Sally – the Dormouse
I never get her. First I thought she was more careful than normally (I think someone mentioned that early on the Day and that made me look at her that way) but now I'm more or less without an opinion. She's one of the "followers" though: retrackies & the newest "against Lottie band-wagon"...
Carefully voices some suspicion on her yet flip-flops nicely. The three dots in the end creep me out, like the ”I never get her” in the beginning. He's kind of – how to say it – decisively undecisive. Looks rather wolf-on-wolf, though could be genuine.
I think there are fair points raised against Sally and Inzil, and to a lesser degree on Glirdy and Brinn.
Could go either way, really.

++ Sally

I thought for a moment of joining Lottie's Glirdy-wagon just to make sure there is a real choice, but then I realised I'm not in that comfort-zone where I could say that they are as suspicious and it's just the same which one we lynch. I do suspect Glirdy, but I do think we have better chances of getting a wolf with Sally. Especially looking at her latest posting...
I don't like the look of this. Looks like an opportunistic wolf-on-wolf vote.

Nienna
Sally - I can usually read her pretty well and I'm not getting alarm bells yet... but we shall see (Nienna)
I'm not all that fond of the ”we shall see” in the end – it looks like trying not to look too positive about a fellow's innocence.

Sally keeps avoiding people calling her a wolf. This worries me.
Makes me feel a bit better about Nienna. If I recall correctly, this was in a post of its own – and though not unheard of, bringing up a new point against a fellow in a one-liner post doesn't strike me as wolf-on-wolf suspicion.

I'm with Lottie right now in saying that Sally is screaming wolf to me. I thought so too at the end of yesterDay but we decided we didn't have enough votes to get her lynched. She'll be getting my vote today unless something drastic happens.

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.
I could see a Niennawolf behind this post, accusing Morsul after that first paragraph that could be interpreted as herself doing the exact same thing she blames Morsul of. But then again, I agree with her about Morsul and her tone still strikes me as genuine. (A sidenote: if Nienna and Morsul are fellows I'm going to eat my hat.)

Nog's point against Sally is quite good. And I wish that she would contribute something and not sulk around being all "woe is me" ... love you though I do, dearie, you are going to need to shape up rather quickly to get me to not vote for you.
Still innocentish tone.

Glirdan
Sally – the Dormouse

Seems to be, well, Sally: Confusing and unreadable (and thank you for getting out of the tea pot!) yet I see nothing that indicates Wolvish behavior....yet. Gah. The ”...yet” in the end looks again like trying not to sound too positive about a fellow's innocence.
After going through Lottie's anaysils of Sally, it does seem as if she (that is to say Sally) just seems to be jumping onto other people's suspicions and piggybacking her way through and not forming any of her own idea's. Hmmmm.....
Sally is really starting to look bad in my eyes.
Could well be a wolf turning against a fellow: he seems rather ready to jump on Sally after it's become clear that she's the clear main suspect of the Day. Could also be an innocent Glirdan trying to save his own skin by making a show of suspecting Sally – regardless of whether he actually did or not.
Sally is looking ridiculously guilty.The same as the previous one, but to a greater extent.
Sorry, I actually missed the rest of it:
Glirdan: He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say"Kill! Kill". He is, however, popping onto other people's suspicions and things, which seems very wolfish the way he's doing it. Wolf? Maybe!
Okay, now that I'm reading that as a whole, it makes me even more suspicious of you. The bolded bit is what got me. You're going along with the flock! What do you mean by that entire phrase? It just makes no sense and seems like you're trying to save yourself.
Still looks like he's decided to suspect her. Could be wolf-on-wolf, could be desperate innocent-on-wolf.

Aganzir
Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.A sensible point, could well have been by an innocent Agan, but the phrasing of the underlined part struck me as slightly fishy – it's too careful (maybe, a bit), not much like Agan's usual provocative style.

I would love to see more substance from sally. Not too fond of her at the moment.
This, in turn, looks okay.

I think knowing sally's role would shed some light on other people, but although I have nothing against her death, I don't like Morsul's vote.Could well be a wolf assuring that the death of a fellow would be okay while not enforcing the suspicion on her.

sally. Seems to be today's favourite lynch target. Mostly banter and that's almost enough of a reason for me to vote for her. Plus her death would shed light on other people. I think her reaction to being suspected was outraged in an innocentish way, though.This strikes me as genuine innocent reasoning, though. Agan is driving me mad.

Legate
Then there of course would be another, wait, two Wolves among the rest! For that matter, sally's vote's been mentioned yesterDay as somewhat out-of-place and I sort of agree, if nothing else, it was inconsistent with what sally said. It wouldn't be a problem otherwise, but I think Nog or who was it had a point in saying that if sally wanted to save Lottie (resp. create a contest-bandwaggon), she would vote for somebody who already had a vote, and not me who didn't have a vote at all. I don't know if there was much of a chance to lynch me at the point (it didn't seem to me so much), so not sure if I can believe sally's explanation. (And that said, what I said above about innocents sticking to their votes won't certainly apply in this case - as that was not the reason sally stated, she came up with the somewhat strange explanation that she wanted to save Lottie.) Anyway... I am keeping my eye on her now. A long rant the point of which was mainly that he'll be keeping an eye on her. Makes me think a wolvish Leggy wouldn't have ranted such lengths about a fellow.

But this sounds a rather too over-the-top defensive thing and somehow, the defense sounds just fabricated. That didn't help you at least in my eyes, sally. But whatever... I don't like the ”But whatever...” in the end – looks like he's suspecting Sally and then dismissing it.
Sally – I find many of the points which have been brought against her as having quite some grounds, and her self-defense didn't help much to convince me otherwise, rather a bit to the opposite. Questionable, at least.Could go either way, really.
Sally would be an option, and also there seems there are other people suspecting her, so if I wanted to pick according to who of my suspects is most likely to be lynched, I could go with her.This doesn't strike me as wolf-on-wolf reasoning at all.
So... I think I might vote sally, and see how things go... (and yes, I have taken into account that "frustrated innocent" thing Shasta said about her, but I just think that's always a possibility, and I am not convinced of it being like that so that it would convince me.)Could be a furry Legate deciding that Sally is a lost case anyway. I'm leaning innocent on this quote, too, though. The tone is more like an innocent Legate deciding to ”see how things go”.

Lommy
Sally ("I think Lottie's suspicious, but I get sick of Day One lynching her." That is perfectly fine, but later she starts a massive operastion Save Private Lottie, which seems rather fishy - like a wolf who tries to look good.)This seems genuine enough.

Sally - her Operation Save Private Lottie looks bad, as does the throwaway vote and general wishy-washyness.Eurgh, could go either way – I'm leaning towards thinking this looks innocentish, but can't say.

I'm willing to give Zil the benefit of doubt for toDay, and I'm not convinced enough of Sally's guilt to give her a third vote, especially now that her recent defense has left me with mixed feelings.Could be a Lommywolf flip-flopping on whether or not Sally's situation looks hopeless enough to justify a wolf-on-wolf vote.

Morsul
I'm Fairly certain I won't be on before DL today so I always suspect Sally however Lotties Post was nicely confirming

++Sally

If I can I MAY have to use my retraction today if I'm back in time.

However Sally is quite smart whether or not I agree with her. I don't think she'd read my sarcasm as anything but, also she says she wanted to try and get me lynched but "no one would go for that" She admits trying to start a Bandwagon. I'm not sure what to make of this. The underlined part sounds really as if he didn't particularly care about who his vote goes to. Normally that kind of behaviour points to a wolf, but on the other hand, a wolf would care about a fellow getting or not getting lynched. It wouldn't be all the same for a wolf whether his fellow is lynched or not, even if that wolf actually voted for that fellow. But then, this post could just as well be an opportunistic wolf voting for a doomed fellow without bothering to come up with arguments to back it up.

Though I'm not changing my vote I like the tone of Sally's defenses(I just don't believe them)

Sally I got your back... sort of Super-confusing. I have no idea what to think about this. At all. Maybe leaning innocent – I don't think a furry Morsul would say this.

Nerwen
Now, I think that's the third vote on Sallymouse, which I guess makes it officially a bandwagon. However, the fact is, she does currently look to me like the most suspicious personNot too fond of the tone of this one. If Sally had been innocent, I'd say this is awfully wolvish. With Sally being a wolf, I'm mainly confused.

Inzil
After what's been said toDay, I think I agree that Sally looks the worst of that quartet.
Of the others, Glirdan and Agan are the ones I would need to look at more closely before I would conclude furriness. I'll try to do that now.I don't like how Inzil takes one villager's list of suspects and picks his main suspect from there – the said main suspect being that of most of the village. Wolf-on-wolf? I could see it there, but not necessarily.

Winty
Right now, I have narrowed down the twp possible people I am going to vote for to either Glirdy, or Sally. Glirdy and Sally seem to me as being the most suspicous thus far.
Really, this could go either way. Unless Glirdy was a wolf too, this wouldn't make sense as a wolfywolfy's post unless he was well-instructed during the Night or else followed the lead of one of his fellows during the Day. (Who? I might look into that at some point, it might be enlightening..) I'm talking, of course, about a newbie wolf debating on whether to vote for a fellow or an innocent.
Right now, I don't have time to explain my reasoning, as I have homework to attend to. If I get a chance later I will explain my reasoning though, but in case I don't have a chance to get back on before the night, ++SallyCould be again waiting to get supplied with reasons during the Night. Eurgh. Don't know.

Shasta
But this sounds a rather too over-the-top defensive thing and somehow, the defense sounds just fabricated. That didn't help you at least in my eyes, sally. But whatever...
I disagree. I've been a frustrated innocent before (right, guys? *waves crossbow*) and honestly, Sally had just come back to two votes and a bucketload of suspicion. I'd probably be frustrated too.Shasta defends Sally here, though only in a small matter. First impression: wolf!! Second impression: I'm not sure if a furry Shasta would defend a fellow who's the main suspect of the Day.

Brinn
About Sally. One thing that caught my eye from yesterDay was when she used her retraction, it really looked like she was simply following the flock in order to look better. Her vote for Legate wasn't great either; as someone mentioned, it was a bit of a throwaway considering she seemed eager to save Lottie. Today she's quite defensive, which is understandable since she does have the most votes. But with her over-the-top behaviour, I can also understand why the votes are piling up. This sort of behaviour does remind me of a wolfish Sally in previous games. Reasoned, unlike many of the Sally-suspecters of yesterDay. Doesn't look wolf-on-wolf.

So here we are. Based on this, I'd make the following list:

good:
Nienna
Legate
Winty
Brinn
leaning goood:
Lommy

confusing aargh:
Nerwen
Morsul
Agan

leaning bad:
Shasta
Inzil
bad:
Nogrod
Glirdan

Mira and Skip I had no quotes on - either because they didn't say anything about her at all, I've lost the quotes in my vast sea of quotes, or they didn't say anything about her that wasn't banter. Please, sweeties, fill me in on which is true.


EDIT: x-ed with 2x Lom & Skip, don't have time to read them, gotta dash, see you later, bye! :D

[Nerwen]

So, Sally was a wolf. Well spotted, friends! And this is very good, because now we have a little more information (useful or not) to work with. I'll attempt a little list having reviewed Day 2.

Glirdan – He came after Sally early, long before it became clear that either one of these two would die. I believe Glirdan proactively participating in lynching Sally is a sign of his innocence although not proof. At this point only a very shrewd wolf would actively go after a fellow wolf, because, let’s face it, a wolf lynched is a step towards a village victory, and an innocent lynched is a step away from that, there’s no getting around that simple fact. A wolf jumping on the bandwagon, yes why not, but actively working to make that bandwagon happen, I doubt it. I could be wrong and maybe that’s everyday business in the ww-world, but to me that feels like too much of a gamble for uncertain profits.

While your reasoning is sound, in practice what we call "wolf-on-wolf" voting is rather common, and yesterDay was pretty much a classic situation for it, with Sallywolf under suspicion from early on, and the wolfpack being able to afford losing a member (three left, after all). It would probably be more important to them to try and look good than to save her. It's rare for the entire pack to survive, even when they win. (Note: this is a general tip, not meant just to apply to Glirdan.)

Anyway, my recollection is that Glirdan's suspicion of Sally was quite lukewarm at first, and that he put forward some others, which no-one really bit on. I suppose I'd better go and check (though I agree with whoever said we shouldn't focus too much on him alone).

EDIT:X'd with Greenie. Added comment.

[skip spence]

Mira and Skip I had no quotes on - either because they didn't say anything about her at all, I've lost the quotes in my vast sea of quotes, or they didn't say anything about her that wasn't banter. Please, sweeties, fill me in on which is true.

I haven't discussed Sally much before no. I voted Glirdan while suggesting that Sally may well be a wolf. Just wanted to keep it close and interesting near the dl.

A few Sally-episodes I found worth while quoting:

Early Day 1:

Glirdan: Yay!! It's time to hunt for the Wolvsies and have some tea!! Speaking of tea...Sally would you be so kind as to move your furry little behind into a different pot? ...

Sally: He's making a joking accusation right there. Do you see it? DO YOU SEE IT?!?! 'Furry little behind' my furry little behind.

(what's this all about? Coincidence?)

Day 1:

Sally: Oh, and I love retractable votes, but I'll just drive myself mad if I have a free pass to mindchanging sitting around. With that.... [retracts her vote]

(Sally is trying to make herself look innocent off Agan’s lead?)

Day 2:

Sally(post 345): Inzil: Not a wolf. Plain and simple. Don't ask me how I know, I just do.

Too late to ask now. Clearly Sally did know. But was she lying?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okayy... so in general. As for Izzy-kill, I think it's most likely that she was killed because several people trusted her and nobody really suspected her much. I don't think there's much to gather from there, which probably was the point for the Wolves.

Otherwise... as for Glirdan and Sally, I think sally's comment can mean either. Whatever is Glirdan's role, Sally either wanted to a) if Glirdan is innocent, to make us wonder about her comment, whether it was so obvious that it was Wolf-on-Wolf or something (the same btw. concerning her comment in her list about Inzil "he's innocent! Don't ask why, he just is" or how it was), and of course preferring if by any chance Glirdy was lynched instead of her - it would give her at least one more Night to live and make us waste yesterDay's lynch and then use toDay's lynch on her, or b) if he's her packmate, she really wouldn't care much whoever of them gets lynched, either way it will be a Wolf (that goes also for all the other Wolves voting, of course, let us bear in mind), and in such a case, if he was lynched, yes, she could gamble toMorrow with a Seer reveal or something (although I think it will be somewhat hard for her to get definite support, but it might lure the real Seer out, and in general sow confusion), or simply, if she was lynched (like she was), we might think that Glirdan was innocent because of all that.

Related to that, of course, Nienna's decisive vote could be taken as important indicator if Glirdan was innocent, but we wouldn't know until he is dead, so that is not really of much help now, the matter is too hazy to speculate on right now.

Otherwise... I think the most interesting thing is how people have reacted to this sally-Glirdan thing, as for sure Wolves would have a different opinion on it (in their head) than rest of the people, as they'd know Glirdy's role, and something interesting might leak through.

Let me once again note that it was Inzil who keeps just "coming back to me on his own" (i.e. I intend not to keep looking just at him all the time and his posts jump at me anyway). This:

Well, looks as if I backed the wrong horse there. Glirdan could technically still be a wolf, but I doubt it. It's not so much his words toward the end of yesterDay that make him look better (I still say his attack looked evil), but this from Sallywolf:

That looks like real panic, trying to convince Nienna to vote Glirdan instead of her. If Nienna had done so and Glirdan was a wolf, the pack would be in the same situation they are now.

That said, I fully intend to vote Mira toDay, barring some major developments.

x/d with Morsul
If Glirdan is a Wolf and Zil too, this would of course be a real possibility for a defense of a fellow packmate. But you know, it's just somehow... clumsy. But in whichever way: whether for innocent or guilty Zil. Okay, he crossposted, so he didn't know what the general mood in the village is, and most of the later posts have shown actually some suspicion of Glirdan. So if Zil is a Wolf, and he wanted to support the idea that Glirdy is innocent, he misexpected (heck, could you say that? No. Is there a word for that? Hope you know what I mean) the village, which showed generally more suspicion to Glirdan this far and now Zil might stick out with trying to think Glirdan innocent. But even an innocent Zil, in my opinion, would have at least more reservations about thinking Glirdy innocent on sally's comment - I mean, Zil has played dozens of games already, and he obviously should know that such random comments thrown by Wolves especially in such a situation can mean anything, or nothing, and they can be bluffs, double-bluffs, triple-bluffs or who knows what. So this very simple reasoning... there is just something wrong with it. But the problem is that it's just clumsy, which does not speak as itself for his guilt or innocence - the possibility of him being a Wolf and "misexpecting" the village's reaction, however, sounds at least a bit more probable and makes a bit more sense (but still it's just weird).

But that's enough about Glirdan. I'm sure he'll be analyzed to death today anyway.
Agreed... Well, now that there actually is more of a reason to suspect him, I am probably going to review him myself, because this far I didn't have reasons to suspect him. I am most looking forward to hearing from him toDay, though, and see how he posts...

Lommy has a good point about that thing that WWs might have killed somebody from Glirdy bandwagon if he's guilty, however of course that doesn't have to be like that necessarily, but it's one quite good remark to consider apart from other things.

Otherwise, there was something really really baaad about WW yesterDay just when I was leaving or maybe a bit later when I was re-reading the thread, not sure, but there was something that made me think at the moment "okay, I definitely have to vote WW toMorrow". Not sure what it was, I am going to look it up.

EDIT: x-ed with skip.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Otherwise, there was something really really baaad about WW yesterDay just when I was leaving or maybe a bit later when I was re-reading the thread, not sure, but there was something that made me think at the moment "okay, I definitely have to vote WW toMorrow". Not sure what it was, I am going to look it up.
Okay, now I wonder, because I actually didn't find it. Something like that happened, though, it apparently doesn't have the same effect on me anymore. (Now I will spend the rest of the Day thinking about what it was...) I wonder if it might have been his vote for sally (as that's basically the only logical option), but I can't think why. Actually now rereading his posts made me think better of him, esp. if Glirdan is innocent (WW voted sally) and he also quoted Isabell in one of his posts, which given that he posted very few posts in total would somehow "link" him to her, so not sure if the Wolves would dare to kill her if about almost the only person he ever quoted was her. (Though of course, this kind of "link" is so vague that it really isn't any big deal, but...)

Okay, but whatever... for now, I am probably going to review some folks... although I should still read a piece of article for tomorrow, I might spend some time with that and then come back to the thread...

[Brinniel]

Seeing Nienna's quotes about Sally, considering she was suspecting her from earlier in the Day and the way she went about suspecting, I'd be really surprised if she wasn't innocent...in the scenario that Glirdan is innocent.

So what to do with Glirdan...

One thing I worry is that if he is innocent, this is a great opportunity for the wolves to jump in and push for his lynching since I suspect there may be a pretty heavy bandwagon against him toDay. But on the other hand, we can't really know his role for sure until he is lynched...knowing his role would certainly shed light on some things.

I'd love to hear Glirdan's defense, but unfortunately I don't think that'll be happening before I leave for the Day.

[Nerwen]

(includes Sally's comments about Glirdan only)

Votes:
Sally 2
Glirdan 1

#311
Late For Tea Time
Gah! Sorry I haven't been on at all today, haven't been home at all since yesterday morning and I'm just getting in now and have only been able to check up on who was killed and I am sad to see Boro gone. I am going to go back and read through things now.


#328 (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627059&postcount=328)
Banter; makes a long but quite superfluous case for Lottie's being the Shirriff. Then-
After going through Lottie's anaysils of Sally, it does seem as if she (that is to say Sally) just seems to be jumping onto other people's suspicions and piggybacking her way through and not forming any of her own idea's. Hmmmm.....

(...)

Sally is really starting to look bad in my eyes. Will form a fully solid opinion once I have thoroughly gone through the other pages and have caught up.

So that confirms my impression: his initial suspicion of Sally isn't really that strong (or, as he puts it, not a "fully solid opinion"), and he's leaving himself plenty of space to back away from it.


#338
Address some things before I go on:
Originally Posted by Greenie
Eurgh. I'm starting to see why Glirdy is suspected. I didn't like that long post of his at all. Or, it was long, but it included mainly suspicion on one of the village's top suspects and confirming innocent a person everyone's been considering innocent pretty much all Day. He could be an innocent who just suspects the same person as everyone else, but I didn't like the tone of that post.
Would you rather me just come back on and start spewing utter nonsense seeing as I have been absent for most of the Day? I'm just trying to get caught up, but if that makes me suspicious in yours, so be it.

Originally Posted by winty
Right now, I have narrowed down the twp possible people I am going to vote for to either Glirdy, or Sally. Glirdy and Sally seem to me as being the most suspicous thus far.

Originally Posted by winty
Would it have been more appeasing to you if I had said I suspected someone noone else did? Those two I mentioned have by far been the ones who have said the most suspicious things.
Mind explaining those? Because they are rather vague and it just seems to me like you're trying to get by on the tailcoats of others, which happens to be a very Wolfish tactic by the by.

Glirdan defends himself against Greenie's charges, then attacks wintywinty on the very same grounds.

What can I say? That's one jaw-dropper of a post there. It seems almost too careless to the work of a wolf– however, note that wintywinty must have looked quite lynchable at that point.

__________________________________________________ ___
Votes:
Sally 4
Glirdan 2
Shasta 1
Morsul 1
wintywinty 1
Zil 1

#345 (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627076&postcount=345)
Sally lists her thoughts on everyone. Of Glirdan she says:
He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say "Kill! Kill". He is, however, popping onto other people's suspicions and things, which seems very wolfish the way he's doing it. Wolf? Maybe!
She does, however, put him amongst those she "suspects", along with Morsul, Legate, wintywinty and Shasta.


#383 (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627117&postcount=383)
Glirdan defends himself against Lottie and Lommy, finds Legate suspicious:
He's making concise arguments, yes, but some of the points he is bringing up (like the one mentioned above) are things that would be fairly obvious to all of us with the exception of our new players. So why point it out?

Also mentions Sally as being on his suspicion list, and is "worried" about Mira and yours truly.

__________________________________________________ ___
Votes:
Sally 5
Glirdan 2
Shasta 1
Morsul 1
wintywinty 1
Zil 1

#403 (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627138&postcount=403)
Glirdan likes Agan's points on wintywinty. Now finds Sally "ridiculously guilty" (on the basis, apparently, of a single "waaaaay too defensive" post, while Mira "has made my eyebrows rise" and wintywinty "has me at a crossroads".


#409 (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=627145&postcount=409)
Glirdan asks Nogrod to explain what was "interesting" (regarding a post where Glirdan seemed to be echoing ww's phrasing).

Attacks Sally's post at #345: What really gets me is that you say that you don't have enough to suspect me on, yet in that exact same post you put me in your suspect list.

Doesn't like wintywinty's vote:
Right now, I don't have time to explain my reasoning, as I have homework to attend to. If I get a chance later I will explain my reasoning though, but in case I don't have a chance to get back on before the night, ++Sally
How hard is it to come up with one to two sentences on why you think said person is suspicious before you leave? It takes two seconds! Unless you really have no idea and are just going along with the pack and will get your reasoning from a fellow Wolf later on?

__________________________________________________ ___
Votes:
Sally 6
Glirdan 2
Shasta 1
Morsul 1
wintywinty 1
Zil 1

#417
Sorry, I actually missed the rest of it:
Originally Posted by Sally
Glirdan: He's honestly not been around much. What he's said is a bit strange, but at the same time I don't have a good enough hold on him to specifically say"Kill! Kill". He is, however, popping onto other people's suspicions and things, which seems very wolfish the way he's doing it. Wolf? Maybe!
Okay, now that I'm reading that as a whole, it makes me even more suspicious of you. The bolded bit is what got me. You're going along with the flock! What do you mean by that entire phrase? It just makes no sense and seems like you're trying to save yourself.

Glirdan revisits Sally's post on him and now finds it even more suspicious (though apparently due to a misunderstanding).

__________________________________________________ ___
Votes:
Sally 6
Glirdan 3
Shasta 1
Morsul 1
wintywinty 1
Zil 1

#430
Well, I'm voting now

++Sally

For suspicions that I've stated in earlier posts all Day....well, since I've been here.


__________________________________________________ ___
Votes:
Sally 7
Glirdan 4
Shasta 1
Morsul 1
wintywinty 1
Zil 1

#437
Well for what it's worth I'm pretty much positive Glirdan's evil. His posts of late just scream it to me and further my prior suspicion of him. So yeah.

__________________________________________________ ___
Votes:
Sally 8
Glirdan 5
Shasta 1
Morsul 1
wintywinty 1
Zil 1


#445
Originally Posted by Nienna
++ Sally
What the....that doesn't even make sense. Not even commentary, just a vote?

You. Are. Bonkers.

Oh, and because Wilwa's bothering me....

++Glirdan


#446
Nienna, Glirdan's a wolf. A WOLF! LYNCH HIM!@

I'm surrounded by mad people.



Comments:

Well, some people seem to have got the idea that Glirdan was active in getting Sally lynched, but as we can see here he at first merely echoed other player's points on her in a fairly non-committal way, increased his suspicion gradually as her votes accumulated and only went after her heavily once she had 5 votes.

Meanwhile, Sally "suspected" him early in the piece– again in a non-committal way– and made no further mention of him until near the end, when she suddenly become "positive" he was guilty, and went on to make her famous "LYNCH HIM!" post.

Well. That all looks pretty damning, doesn't it?

However, there are some points against a wolf-on-wolf theory:

1. Up to #403 Glirdy was, by his own account, still reading through the Day and may not have been keeping track of the voting.
2. Glirdan was the runner-up in the voting, the only viable lynch-candidate other than Sallywolf herself. This would have become clear to both parties towards the close of the Day, giving Sally a motive for trying to lynch an innocent Glirdan and innocent-Glirdan a reason to want to suspect her.
3. Glirdan, to put it bluntly, does tend to just go with the flow. (It's actually quite weird, by the way, how often he accuses other players of doing exactly this). Thus, an innocent Glirdan might well have been honestly influenced by the increasing suspicion against Sally.

Whew. That all took MUCH TOO LONG.

Back later.

EDIT:X'd with Brinniel and 2 Legates; wording;formatting.

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

The Glirdy-wagon sure was an interesting one. So were the wolves trying to save Sally or are the wolves having a nightmarish start to the game?

Let's take a look at yesterDay's voting. Here's the thing (Sally-voters are italicized, those we need not think of are underlined and the rest are bolded to make the list more readable).

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally2
Lommy -> Glirdy
(Agan actually voted for Inzil here)
Greenie -> Shasta
Legate -> Sally3
winty -> Sally4
Shasta -> Morsul
Mira -> Winty
Lottie -> Glirdy2
Agan -> Inzil
Nog -> Sally5
Brinn -> Sally6
Skip -> Glirdy3
Glirdy -> Sally7
Inzil -> Glirdy4
Izzy -> Glirdy5
Nienna -> Sally8
Sally -> Glirdy6

We can look at this list first from two perspectives; assuming that Glirdy a wolf and assuming him innocent.

If Glirdy is a wolf the reading of the list is pretty hard as the wolves could possibly hide anywhere. If Glirdy is innocent, then the Glirdy-voters sure merit a closer look.

The Glirdy voters then are Lommy, Skip and Inzil.

If Glirdy is a wolf then Lommy looks good (it would be foolish to another mate the second one getting votes when one is already gathering the votes), if Glirdy is innocent Lommy looks actually pretty bad (trying to open another lynching route with picking up an easyish lynch-candidate).

Skip's vote is harder to pin down but the same basic logic applies, even if only in relative turns. Surely if Glirdy is innocent, his vote with the vagueish to and fro with Sally would look quite evil indeed (as it could be seen as a try to build up a wagon for Glirdy, even if quite desperate one), but if Glirdy is a wolf, then it's harder to say (why to press another mate forwards at that point - well that wouldn't be totally unbelievable but actually quite smart?).

With Inzil it's again a bit different. First of all it must be noted that Inzil votes in a situation where one could actually count the votes to come and see the possibility of Glirdan being actually lynched over Sally. So in case of Glirdy being innocent I'd think that vote especially incriminating for Zil. But it would be quite a nice move also in the case Glirdy is a wolf as at that point he could also speculate with the slimness of the chances of getting Glirdy lynched and thus look better later as an independent thinker who gets it right.

Some of them probably just plain thought Glirdy looked more suspicious than Sally for I do not believe these three are our three wolves left. That would be a bit too daring indeed. Although, if Glirdy turns up innocent then even that should be considered.

I'll come back with those who decided to choose differently (not voting Sally or Glirdy) & Sally-voters in a moment.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Inziladun]

That, I think, is a very dangerous path to take (wow, doesn't that sound epic!) because knowing that Lottie has our best interests at heart isn't saying anything about how accurate her suspicions are. Throughout WW history there have been innocents who bark at the wrong tree for an entire game though they have the village's best interests at heart.

The advantage of listening to Lottie is that at least I can be relatively certain she's not trying to mislead me. I already took issue with the fact that she apparently trusts Mira, who I think looks fairly evil.

I don't like this one, either. A wolf can very well make great contributions - a Nerwolf certainly can - and off-handedly dismissing the possibility makes it seem like you are grasping at straws to suspect whoever it was who talked about the great contributions. (I've lost the spot where I found this quote, should check that, probably...)

Speaking of grasping at straws....:rolleyes:
When you say one makes 'great contributions', I take that to mean you approve of the things they've said. That's why I thought Glirdan was being contradictory there.

But even an innocent Zil, in my opinion, would have at least more reservations about thinking Glirdy innocent on sally's comment - I mean, Zil has played dozens of games already, and he obviously should know that such random comments thrown by Wolves especially in such a situation can mean anything, or nothing, and they can be bluffs, double-bluffs, triple-bluffs or who knows what. So this very simple reasoning... there is just something wrong with it. But the problem is that it's just clumsy, which does not speak as itself for his guilt or innocence - the possibility of him being a Wolf and "misexpecting" the village's reaction, however, sounds at least a bit more probable and makes a bit more sense (but still it's just weird).

Incredible as it may seem, no: wolf-on-wolf was not my first thought there. Why not? Probably because what Sally did would not have occurred to me, had I been in her position.
And for the record, this is game # 13 for me.

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

(it would be foolish to another mate the second one getting votes when one is already gathering the votes)Oh my. That sentence doesn't make any sense whatsoever... :D

What I tried to say is this: it would be foolish for a wolf to vote for fellow B, making him the second overall candidate to get votes, when fellow A has already two votes. So there would be two wolves having votes and none other...

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Aganzir]

Hi I'm here. However I have very little time so I'm going to read as much as I can...

I doubt we can make much of sally's last words (or the whole of her yesterday participation, for that matter). She probably knew she was going to die and did her best to confuse us as much as she could.

Morsul looks better to me today, I can follow his logic about sally. However I don't think the fact that she tried to lynch Glirdan tells us anything about his role.

There are some people I want to have a look at today, but it will have to wait until evening because I have something to attend to shortly. I'm basically speaking about Shasta, Nerwen, Glirdan and Brinn because I need to clear my thoughts about them. However I'll have to see how many of them I have time for today.

Understandably is annoyed by me (I am sorry, dear, I plead temporary insanity due to sickness...flimsy excuse, I know
It's alright, and it's actually good my net died when it did because I had come very close to snapping my temper (I can only explain it by having been rather mood swingy lately)... I hope I didn't irritate you too much.

I have this gut feeling that if Inzil is a wolf, Shasta might be too. There's just something, I don't know, it was Shasta's interaction with Greenie who suspected Inzil that made me think so, but I recall feeling vaguely uneasy about Shasta earlier. I will have to look at it more closely.

Lommy had a good point about Izzy's death possibly pointing to Glirdan's guilt.

At this point only a very shrewd wolf would actively go after a fellow wolf
Yes but Lottie (known innocent) went heavily after them both and they probably knew one was likely to day yesterday... So if both are wolves they might have decided to stage a fight so the remaining one would look more innocent today. I don't know.

Agan – Queen of Hearts
Got my eyes on her.
Hardly surprising. ;)

Her voting-record is also a little suspect, especially on day 2 when she voted Inzil while downplaying the Sally suspicion somewhat.
While making my summary, I originally put sally on the Guilty list without giving it much thought other than that others found her suspicious. Then I was like, I haven't gone through her posts, I haven't picked up anything myself that would point toward her guilt, Lottie suspects her strongly but heck she's wrong about me too! I didn't feel justified to keep her on the Guilty list. And in any case, I suspected Inzil more than sally.

So I have to leave in a couple of minutes... I'll go through yesterday later.

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Well then those who walked their own paths (more epic-style to our thread :rolleyes:).

Greenie -> Shasta
Agan -> Inzil
The vote-count at that point was (also when Agan actually voted):
Sally2
Glirdy1
It wouldn't be the most effective way to help Sally but as the vote was made relatively early it might have been somewhat good idea for a fellow wolf putting another "easyish" voting candidate into the list (increasing the chances that someone else will get the noose eventually), and if Glirdy is a wolf, then her choice of adding a new candidate would be obvious.

Shasta -> Morsul
The vote-count at that point was:
Sally4
Glirdy1
Shasta1
Sally was clearly taking the heat there so just to defend her Shasta's move isn't the best one to help out a fellow, but seeing that he himself had a vote as well it could be possible Shasta-wolf decided to bring forwards a new candidate - not to talk of the possibility only wolves had gathered votes at that point of the Day!

Mira -> Winty
The vote-count at that point was:
Sally4
Glirdy1
Shasta1
Morsul1
Now this is an interesting choice. One more "easy lynch" candidate thrown into the lot. There were a host of votes to come as it was relatively early so why not put all the baits in there so that someone would pass Sally? And many had suspected winty, so maybe the "benefit of doubt" would have worn away? Or were there too many mates in the fray at that point that she really needed to add a new one?


The thing that bothers me with basically everyone here is that they more or less bring forwards the so called "easy lynches". Obviously they all four can't be wolves and thus some of their suspicions must be honest and innocent. But I'd bet a lot for there being a wolf in this group - like in the group of Glirdy-voters.

The rest coming soon.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Sally-lynchers then...

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally2

Morsul looks so darn suspicious everytime he plays but it would be quite daring for him to start voting against a mate who clearly was facing some real pressure that Day. And actually, if Glirdan is a wolf then the same applies for toDay. Could it be a done deal? Risky, but possibly paying back in the endgame?

Nerwen I think quite good of as adding the lead of a packmate at that situation would hve been both bold and possibly quite counter-productive. Or did they think Sally was a goner already during the Night?

Legate -> Sally3
winty -> Sally4

These two votes I think talk rather good of their makers as one looks at the placing of them. They clearly made Sally the real candidate number one. If one of them were a wolf they'd surely have reasons coming for another candidates? So voting Sally at that point would have been unnecessary.

Nog -> Sally5
Brinn -> Sally6

More or less the same as with Legate & winty. The difference being that there was then clearly a chance of a second candidate with Glirdy. I suspected Sally more than Glirdy, Brinn didn't mention Glirdy at all.

Glirdy -> Sally7

Self-preservation, whatever his role is.

Nienna -> Sally8

The decisive vote.


Blah... have no time to continue as I have to run to a meeting. See you later...

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Brinniel]

Looking at the voting list, Mira's vote looks quite bad not only because of the nature of the vote that I mentioned yesterDay I didn't like, but the timing too (Sally was really racking up in votes by then). Actually, Shasta looks just as bad for the timing of his vote, but I can't remember his reasons behind the vote, so I should perhaps check that out later. In any case, they both warrant a reason for me to better look at them come toMorrow.

But I must be going now, so here's my vote:

++Glirdan

I hate making early votes and I still wish I could've actually heard what he may have to say before making this vote, but I won't be back toDay most likely.

His role could go either way, and knowing what it is would clear up some things. Even if he did turn out innocent, his death wouldn't exactly be a devastating blow to the village considering we are ahead in the game lynching a wolf and cobbler in two Days...and not to mention that his death could provide useful clues, whatever his role may be. If we don't lynch him toDay, we'll just be wondering the same things about him come toMorrow. So at this point, unless a more suspicious candidate comes forth, he seems the best choice for toDay.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading, with comments to make (especially about my exhausted post from earlier this morning. :p)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I know this will be an unpopular move however I'm going with my gut on this one.

++Glirdan

It got me one wolf so maybe It'll get me another.

Morsul, I don't particularly care who you vote, but voting this early is harmful to the innocents as a whole (and it's lost you a game before, remember?) You might think about that.

Hmm...this is something to think about. It seems quite possible Glirdan is indeed a wolf, but it's definitely something we can't be certain of.

This quote seems awfully wishy-washy... I generally think Brinn to be more decisive than this.


Okay, after reading through as my much-less-tired self, I still don't like the way Greenie quoted Inzil out-of-context. It seems to me fairly obvious that Inzil thought Glirdan was being contradictory in his post about Nerwen, which is a fair reason for suspicion, so I don't see where the "grasping at straws" fits in. Especially as Inzil looked to be under a bit of suspicion yesterday.


Speaking of throwaway votes (Lommy's #477 talking about Mira is what reminded me) I still don't like Morsul's vote yesterday. It feels like he's established "vote early and be suspicious at all times" as his own playstyle, but at the same time right now it feels like he's hiding behind it a bit.


Sally keeps avoiding people calling her a wolf. This worries me.Makes me feel a bit better about Nienna. If I recall correctly, this was in a post of its own – and though not unheard of, bringing up a new point against a fellow in a one-liner post doesn't strike me as wolf-on-wolf suspicion.

This is a game of werewolves. Werewolves lie. A wolf shouldn't have a problem with saying "No, I'm not a wolf" when people say "Hey, you're a wolf". Plus, historically, people who have responded to "Hey I'm a wolf" with "No I'm not what are you talking about" have sometimes been considered "overdefensive".

TLDR; Nienna looks slightly worse to me for this comment and Greenie looks worse for saying it makes Nienna look better.


Now this is an interesting choice. One more "easy lynch" candidate thrown into the lot.

Right, I'm going to take issue with people continuing to call winty an "easy lynch". Firstly, since when is a newbie an "easy lynch"? People are going to look askance at anyone who tries to lynch a newbie early. (That's just how we roll, we're nice like that. :p) Secondly, any actual suspicion of winty has been intermittent at best, with plenty of better candidates for lynching. Again, not seeing how that makes winty an "easy lynch". I'm beginning to wonder if saying that isn't just an excuse to suspect whoever votes winty.

[skip spence]

Is back for a bit. Will try to have a look at how the Glirdan suspicions arose and why.

[Loslote]

I'm sorry, I think I missed something. Could you explain what you mean by this?

In brief, Shasta whacked me over the head with a dead fish and told me to stop being silly and look at other people. Now, as I did not suspect him at all (still don't), this would be a silly move for a wolf to make, because I could easily have turned on him for trying to allay suspicion of packmates. As it happens, it was extremely helpful, because I was being rather silly. :rolleyes: Anyway, though, my point is that waking up the known innocent from blind suspicion is not a good move for a wolf to make, but it is a good move for an innocent.

[Loslote]

I know this will be an unpopular move however I'm going with my gut on this one.

[*Highlight]++Glirdan[/Highlight*]

It got me one wolf so maybe It'll get me another.

First off, this really does look bad, Morsul. Secondly, what, exactly, do you mean by "It"? Voting early? Bandwaggoning? Because that's what you're doing, and it's not a very good method of getting wolves. :rolleyes:

Sadly, I don't think this particularly means that he's a wolf. He just has a strange and somewhat silly style. (Ooh alliteration! :D And that's not meant to be an insult, dear, I'm just sayin'.) I don't particularly suspect him...but I don't trust him or his logic either, and I don't trust him to do what's necessarily best for the village. (Side note: I'd think he was the cobbler if I didn't know Fea was, rather than a wolf.)

[skip spence]

Ok, it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, that certain suspicious arose from his allegedly wolfish voting on Day 1. No votes on Glirdan on day one though.

Early on day 2 Lottie is the first to come after him, and does so in characteristically fervent fashion.

On day two Lommy was the first to vote for him, before the man himself made his entrance. The explanation:
Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.

Not the strongest of explanations...

Lottie then fuels up the anti-Glirdan sentiments
Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.

Then there's little happening until WinWin comes in and agrees with the above:
I was thinking the exact same thing.

Then Glirdan come on, responds to some unimportant stuff, then agrees that Sally looks bad. Does not try to defend himself.

Next up is Greenie:
Eurgh. I'm starting to see why Glirdy is suspected. I didn't like that long post of his at all. Or, it was long, but it included mainly suspicion on one of the village's top suspects and confirming innocent a person everyone's been considering innocent pretty much all Day. He could be an innocent who just suspects the same person as everyone else, but I didn't like the tone of that post.
Greenie doesn't like the tone of the post. Very vague, and with the knowledge that Sally was a wolf, what does this say about Greenie?

With a long post #341 Lottie keeps her lynch-Glirdan campaign going. Argument to too impressive.

With post 345 Sally come up with a list. Glirdan, she says, is suspect because other suspect him. She also suspects Morsul, Legate, Winty and Shasta

Nothing on Glirdan for a good while before Lottie votes for him, his second. By now Sally has 4.

With post 383 Glirdan finally defends himself agaist Lotties accusations:
I am really starting to get agitated with this constant biased reasoning. You're making the assumption that I am evil based on my vote for Shasta due to his out of the blue vote for Greenie, who is my quote/unquote "packmate"? Yes, my vote was a throwaway vote yesterDay, but I went through my list of suspicions and voted for the one person who stood out the most, which was Shasta as his vote troubled me.
A pretty good defence I must say. There is little real substance in the accusation and Shasta's vote did trouble me a bit too. Glirdan then suspects Legate on as shaky grounds as when Lottie accused him.
Legate is starting to stand out to me. He's making concise arguments, yes, but some of the points he is bringing up (like the one mentioned above) are things that would be fairly obvious to all of us with the exception of our new players. So why point it out?

I vote for Glirdan:
Glirdan I've had a slight suspicion on since day one and although I've no clear picture of exactly what he's been up to tonight, at least he's not reassured me. So, in order to open up another alternative:
To be honest I can't recall why or even if I actually did worry about Glirdan on day one. At this point I was very tired and ever so slightly inebriated after having celebrated a traditional Saturday Night. Just wanted to make the run-in more even as I though that would make things more interesting and hopefully reveal more information.

With post 431 Inziladun votes for Glirdan
Glirdan looks like a wolf going in for the kill with confidence.
But now when we know Sally is guilty, what does this say about Inziladun?

Then known innocent Izzy votes Glirdan without much wording. Not much to be said about that.

Don't know what to make of that. Except that there isn't much weight behind the Glirdan accusers. Is he a wolf? No idea frankly. Not my prime suspect anyway.

[skip spence]

Got my eyes on her


Not surprising ;)

But don't you think it's only because of your good looks my dear Aganzir.

[A Little Green]

I'm back! First off, it seems I've made a mess again with the Inzil-quote-thing.When you say one makes 'great contributions', I take that to mean you approve of the things they've said. That's why I thought Glirdan was being contradictory there.Ok, that's cleared - I understood great to mean considerable of size/quantity/importance.
Okay, after reading through as my much-less-tired self, I still don't like the way Greenie quoted Inzil out-of-context. It seems to me fairly obvious that Inzil thought Glirdan was being contradictory in his post about Nerwen, which is a fair reason for suspicion, so I don't see where the "grasping at straws" fits in. Especially as Inzil looked to be under a bit of suspicion yesterday.Yeah. It was partly that I misunderstood Inzil, partly that I didn't like the way he seemed to imply that making sense and being a wolf can't go together.
TLDR; Nienna looks slightly worse to me for this comment and Greenie looks worse for saying it makes Nienna look better.A probably irrelevant question: what does TLDR mean?
Anyway, though, my point is that waking up the known innocent from blind suspicion is not a good move for a wolf to make, but it is a good move for an innocent. Ok, thanks, that cleared - though I'm not sure if I buy your point.
First off, this really does look bad, Morsul. Secondly, what, exactly, do you mean by "It"? Voting early? Bandwaggoning? Because that's what you're doing, and it's not a very good method of getting wolves.A technical point: getting a wolf lynched usually requires a bandwagon. Just saying. :p Of course, that isn't to say that I approve of Morsul's early, bandwaggonish vote. I don't.