Balrog Breaking and Entering

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I find it more likely that it entered through the tunnels beneath Moria– you know, the ones "gnawed by nameless things" (see The White Rider).
According to Gandalf, the Balrog was familiar with these. We're not told if there was a way directly into these deep tunnels from outside at the time of the War of the Ring, but I don't see why there couldn't have been at some point.

My only problem with this is you'd think that the entire area, not just Moria proper, would have been crawling with Dwarves. There should have been constant travel to and from the West-gate through the area later to be known as Eregion.
I would say the Balrog was lucky to have escaped their vigilance, but it was probably the Dwarves who were luckier.
This actually makes me wonder why the Balrog picked a location where it was likely to be discovered sooner or later. The Misty Mountains were a pretty large range, and you'd think there would have been hundreds of caves it could have explored. Maybe it had once known the Watcher and wanted to catch up on old times.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

My only problem with this is you'd think that the entire area, not just Moria proper, would have been crawling with Dwarves. There should have been constant travel to and from the West-gate through the area later to be known as Eregion.
I would say the Balrog was lucky to have escaped their vigilance, but it was probably the Dwarves who were luckier.

I think Nerwen is spot on in her observation.
Anyways the entrances to tunnels under Moria probably wasn't situated near the gates or at the main travel rutes, the misty mountains is a massive mountain range and it should be no problem to find a desolate place.

[Pitchwife]

From the Silmarillion, it would seem that Angband was mostly subterranean, and probably dug pretty deep - maybe even including some biotopes for nameless, gnawing things of its own (Morgoth's pampered pets?). So who's to say Durin's Bane didn't travel all the way underground? It could have wandered through the entrails of the Earth for millennia until it finally found a cosy nook to settle down, entirely unaware that there were Dwarves living on top of it. I guess it was pretty annoyed when they broke into its attics.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

From the Silmarillion, it would seem that Angband was mostly subterranean, and probably dug pretty deep - maybe even including some biotopes for nameless, gnawing things of its own (Morgoth's pampered pets?). So who's to say Durin's Bane didn't travel all the way underground? It could have wandered through the entrails of the Earth for millennia until it finally found a cosy nook to settle down, entirely unaware that there were Dwarves living on top of it. I guess it was pretty annoyed when they broke into its attics.

Ah, Your Highness be basically quoting the beautiful, yet terribly uncanonical works by the Iron Crown Enterprises, incorporating a vast complex of Morgoth's tunnels from the First Age, reaching from the Remains of Thangorodrim as far as the halls under Moria, and reaching further into the "Drowning-Deeps" underneath the Blue Mountains, the "Rusted Deeps" under the Iron Hills, and at last, the dark Under-Courts of Barad-Dur. So, great minds think alike?

Well, anyway, I consider the subterranean infiltration rather plausible (with all canonicity). Was it Gandalf who said that the lodes of mithril lead "north towards Caradhras - and down to darkness"? Certainly "down to darkness" raises the image of unknown underground corridors, which may lead who knows where.

But I would combine it with the stealth aspect, too. I mean, why would the Balrog not be good at stealth? I always thought they could be. Covered with shadow, indeed, like wayseer said.

(Topic-unrelated note: Okay, I must say I freaked out when I saw wayseer posting on this thread - as for me, it was something like a name of legend, I saw wayseer posting before I joined, so for me it's something like seeing SpM, only with the difference that I have been talking to SpM before.)

[Mnemosyne]

Don't forget also about all the crazy cataclysmic stuff that was going on during the War of Wrath. Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there? (Sorry, but I have a bit of a hard time thinking that the Balrog spent that much time just waiting very, very patiently for Dwarf fricasee...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, and once again, if we think of any underground complex of Morgoth's, it would go down with Beleriand, too, and probably be drowned. A Balrog doused after long swimming would be also less detectable, eh? Well, jokes aside, opening new passages by cracking the land makes a whole new possibility indeed. Also, speaking of secret passages and water, this reminds me of the Watcher in the water, who managed to get to the West Gate of Moria from who knows where, it is true that there was probably not much anybody to guard it at that time, but still, there must have been some good access way for it in the first place, so as for unexplored cracks in the mass of Caradhras or other mountains, I don't think it would be such a problem to get in (or the good old solution, drilling).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, speaking of secret passages and water, this reminds me of the Watcher in the water, who managed to get to the West Gate of Moria from who knows where,

Thinking about the Watcher, the creature was obviously not born in the lake - don't think that the Dwarves had had to contend with mini versions during their stay in Moria (there is the theory that the Watcher is actually a 'Flushie,' like some sewer alligator, but I'll let others speculate on that ). So the Watcher had to travel to the lake. If it could cross land, or at least any length, it wouldn't have remained in the lake.

So then it got into the lake from the water, meaning a passage appeared in the lake to some other place. If such passages from the surface to other areas are available to the Watcher, then they would be for the balrog as well.

[alatar]

The gnawing creatures, during the breaking of Thangorodrim, began squirming in all directions - underground, of course - just like an bugs when you strike the nest. The balrog, being the only one that survived, obviously was a bit brighter than the others, and so followed the gnawing ones out away from the battle.

Eventually, the balrog could worm no more, and so lay down for a sleep in some cavern under Caradhras...that is until some hammer-banging Dwarves showed up...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by alatar

Eventually, the balrog could worm no more, and so lay down for a sleep in some cavern under Caradhras...that is until some hammer-banging Dwarves showed up...

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

That sounds like one of my days a few months ago, getting an unexpected (and unwelcomed) visitor in the ridiculously early hours of the morning. Ai! Ai! You saying I'm a balrog!?

I can see stealth being in the Balrog's repetoire. He wasn't a hulking beast that was all scrunched up in tunnels and mine shafts. The tallest Balrog was the one Glorfindel killed, which was said to be twice his height. Durin's Bane was roughly man-size, it was hard to discern his exact height because he could control shadows. Besides being cloaked in darkness (a stealth tool for sure!) He is described as leaping, bounding, and skipping across fissures to reach the Fellowship (and Gandalf on the bridge). They were Maiar after all.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Ah, Your Highness be basically quoting the beautiful, yet terribly uncanonical works by the Iron Crown Enterprises, incorporating a vast complex of Morgoth's tunnels from the First Age, reaching from the Remains of Thangorodrim as far as the halls under Moria, and reaching further into the "Drowning-Deeps" underneath the Blue Mountains, the "Rusted Deeps" under the Iron Hills, and at last, the dark Under-Courts of Barad-Dur. So, great minds think alike?

Your Legginess doth credit me with more erudition than I can justly claim to possess, my familiarity with the scrolls of lore you mention amounting to little more than nil.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there?

Hmmm - the distance from Moria Gate to the Isle of Himling (closest remnant of Beleriand) was some 900-1000 miles as the Balrog flies*. I'm not quite sure what an earthquake that could be felt (and I mean felt, not registered by modern equipment) across such a distance would measure on the Richter scale - but who knows what the Lords of the West in their Wrath were capable of?
What about this: the Balrog, seeking to hide in the deepest recesses of Angband, was buried under what would after the cataclysm become the sea floor. It then wormed/burrowed/melted(?how much heat can an undoused Balrog generate?) its way through the continental crust till it found a nice cavern deep under Moria and decided to spend the next few millennia there.
But seriously, the real solution is, of course, much simpler:
*It flew to the top of Zirakzigil and descended the Endless Stair, etc., taking the same way as when it was pursued by Gandalf, only in the opposite direction. It's logical, isn't it? How else would it know the way so well?

(OT: Now that Legate mentions it, wayseer, are you actually, as your avatar seems to indicate, The Only Real Estel reincarnated? If so, I'm pleased and honored to meet you! (Well, pleased anyway!))

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

By the way, all the escape-from-Angband business and the fact that he was the sole survivor of his kind in the Third Age (or at least known one) makes me think whether this particular person, the one we know as Durin's Bane, wasn't a bit of a coward I mean, compared to the average of his kind...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Hmmm - the distance from Moria Gate to the Isle of Himling (closest remnant of Beleriand) was some 900-1000 miles as the Balrog flies*. I'm not quite sure what an earthquake that could be felt (and I mean felt, not registered by modern equipment) across such a distance would measure on the Richter scale - but who knows what the Lords of the West in their Wrath were capable of?

Oh, I am sure the earthquake must have been quite a feat. I mean, we are talking about the whole Beleriand drowning here, Ered Luin being torn apart and all that stuff. Unless I am mistaken, the Bay of Belfalas was created at that time, and it was also implied, I believe, that there used to be the great inland sea of Helcar (beyond which Men awoke) where later the lakes of Rhun and Núrnen existed. Go figure.

(OT: I was not talking about the avvie, although of course I know it, but I was thinking of wayseer as wayseer, it's just weird as I recall his name vividly from before.)

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(OT: I was not talking about the avvie, although of course I know it, but I was thinking of wayseer as wayseer, it's just weird as I recall his name vividly from before.)

Meaning he isn't TORE? Now I'm disappointed... and confused. Where do you remember him from? Phantom memory?

Back on topic (if only slightly): I hadn't considered Helcar shrinking into Rhûn and Nurnen in this context before, but it figures - the drowning of Beleriand probably had to be balanced by former sea floor being raised somewhere else; just like the New Lands created after/at the Fall of Númenor.
A wonder if anything in the west of Middle-earth was left standing at all. Potters and glaziers must have been very busy for decades after the War of Wrath.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

By the way, all the escape-from-Angband business and the fact that he was the sole survivor of his kind in the Third Age (or at least known one) makes me think whether this particular person, the one we know as Durin's Bane, wasn't a bit of a coward I mean, compared to the average of his kind...

Ah, give him a small break. Even Sauron the Great was frightened enough by the fall of Morgoth to humble himself before Eönwë and turn his back on his former master.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Oh, I am sure the earthquake must have been quite a feat. I mean, we are talking about the whole Beleriand drowning here, Ered Luin being torn apart and all that stuff. Unless I am mistaken, the Bay of Belfalas was created at that time, and it was also implied, I believe, that there used to be the great inland sea of Helcar (beyond which Men awoke) where later the lakes of Rhun and Núrnen existed. Go figure.

If an earthquake resulting from the War of Wrath was strong enough to affect the Misty Mountains and aid the balrog in hiding, wouldn't it also have severely damgaged Khazad-dûm?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

A wonder if anything in the west of Middle-earth was left standing at all. Potters and glaziers must have been very busy for decades after the War of Wrath.

The Barrow-downs survived.

[wayseer]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(OT: I was not talking about the avvie, although of course I know it, but I was thinking of wayseer as wayseer, it's just weird as I recall his name vividly from before.)

(Before? Before when?

But to the matter at hand - there have been stirrings of the Shadow elsewhere - but I am happy to be back.

Sorry - I do not mean to derail the thread).