Balrog Breaking and Entering

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, give him a small break. Even Sauron the Great was frightened enough by the fall of Morgoth to humble himself before Eönwë and turn his back on his former master.

Well, but Sauron was a great coward, we all know that But honestly. Encounter with Lúthien, bargaining with Eönwë, later with Ar-Pharazon, hiding in the East, hiding in Dol Guldur, and basically even hiding in Barad-Dur.

The cowards are the ones who survive, because the brave ones fight until somebody kills them. So all the brave Balrogs and other servants of Morgoth have died.

If an earthquake resulting from the War of Wrath was strong enough to affect the Misty Mountains and aid the balrog in hiding, wouldn't it also have severely damgaged Khazad-dûm?

And who says it didn't? I think there's no need to record a few broken halls, the thousands of Dwarves had enough time to repair it before Sauron came to Eriador...

Originally Posted by wayseer

(Before? Before when?

But to the matter at hand - there have been stirrings of the Shadow elsewhere - but I am happy to be back.

Sorry - I do not mean to derail the thread).

Interesting. I am quite certain I remember somebody by the name of wayseer posting at least around late 2006, resp. before it. I know that already back then I have noticed that this person and TORE have the same avatars. Aside from that, I definitely recall this person posting on the "where does your screenname come from" or some similar thread (wherever it was, somewhere where he could have explained it) that he picked the name "wayseer" as "seer of the way", that it is "fitting for a ranger". Honestly. Is it possible that there used to be a different user account which was deleted? I am puzzled. Because I also think *that* person used to have more posts. Like, into hundreds at least, I think. Or what? Am I crazy? (Okay, end of off-topic rant, but this is just scary and unexplainable, because even if it were so, that would be quite some coincidence to have a person with the same screenname AND avvie.)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The cowards are the ones who survive, because the brave ones fight until somebody kills them. So all the brave Balrogs and other servants of Morgoth have died

You seem to be mistaking bravery for stupidity and to withdraw from a battle that cannot be won is not necessarily a sign of cowardliness. (it can be though)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

You seem to be mistaking bravery for stupidity and to withdraw from a battle that cannot be won is not necessarily a sign of cowardliness. (it can be though)

Nope, but only in this case. Sauron was the typical coward, and I think on the side of evil the characters in LotR (or Sil etc.) were often more or less cowards. Sometimes defining bravery and stupidity depends only on the point of view, but very often you can tell withdrawal from cowardice, and the guys who survived from Angband seem to belong to the other bunch. Because otherwise you would be saying that all the other guys were just stupid not to withdraw, whereas certainly the question at the moment was something different, it was sort of a matter of honor - maybe not of bravery, but kind of stubbornness maybe, "no, we are not going to give up now, after such a long time we just won't admit that we were wrong all the time". Something like Saruman. Something unlike Galadriel. See, that's the difference. Three completely different approaches: Saruman, Galadriel, Sauron. Stubbornness, willingness to admit own faults, cowardly opportunism or just plain cowardice. And I would put the Balrog in the latter cathegory as well, because why would he flee, of all, while all his colleagues did stand and fight?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate

very often you can tell withdrawal from cowardice, and the guys who survived from Angband seem to belong to the other bunch. Because otherwise you would be saying that all the other guys were just stupid not to withdraw,

Maybe they where. . .

At least when the battle was clearly lost it would make sense to withdraw if possible, thus being able to fight another day. The Balrog who we meet in the third age almost achived victory for the forces of evil, something it would not have been able to do had it been slayen in a last stance at Angband.

I am not saying that fighting against all odds is always stupid, as you cannot run forever, but to insist on it at all times is foolish.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

At least when the battle was clearly lost it would make sense to withdraw if possible, thus being able to fight another day. The Balrog who we meet in the third age almost achived victory for the forces of evil, something it would not have been able to do had it been slayen in a last stance at Angband.

I am not saying that fighting against all odds is always stupid, as you cannot run forever, but to insist on it at all times is foolish.

Well, I am not speaking about my opinions on this question at all. I am merely thinking about the Balrog (and the others) now. As for what you said in the first part, personally I don't think he would have thought of anything like that when he was escaping - like, calculating that he might take revenge one day, or carry on the legacy of his master. Of course. He could start to think of destroying a few Gandalfs only when he was safely somewhere in a warm cavern. "Hide-hide!" was probably his only thought when the judgement came upon Angband, quite logically.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I find it more likely that it entered through the tunnels beneath Moria– you know, the ones "gnawed by nameless things"

But don't you think his wings might have got in the way?

*ducks*