Balrog Breaking and Entering

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

From the Silmarillion, it would seem that Angband was mostly subterranean, and probably dug pretty deep - maybe even including some biotopes for nameless, gnawing things of its own (Morgoth's pampered pets?). So who's to say Durin's Bane didn't travel all the way underground? It could have wandered through the entrails of the Earth for millennia until it finally found a cosy nook to settle down, entirely unaware that there were Dwarves living on top of it. I guess it was pretty annoyed when they broke into its attics.

Ah, Your Highness be basically quoting the beautiful, yet terribly uncanonical works by the Iron Crown Enterprises, incorporating a vast complex of Morgoth's tunnels from the First Age, reaching from the Remains of Thangorodrim as far as the halls under Moria, and reaching further into the "Drowning-Deeps" underneath the Blue Mountains, the "Rusted Deeps" under the Iron Hills, and at last, the dark Under-Courts of Barad-Dur. So, great minds think alike?

Well, anyway, I consider the subterranean infiltration rather plausible (with all canonicity). Was it Gandalf who said that the lodes of mithril lead "north towards Caradhras - and down to darkness"? Certainly "down to darkness" raises the image of unknown underground corridors, which may lead who knows where.

But I would combine it with the stealth aspect, too. I mean, why would the Balrog not be good at stealth? I always thought they could be. Covered with shadow, indeed, like wayseer said.

(Topic-unrelated note: Okay, I must say I freaked out when I saw wayseer posting on this thread - as for me, it was something like a name of legend, I saw wayseer posting before I joined, so for me it's something like seeing SpM, only with the difference that I have been talking to SpM before.)

[Mnemosyne]

Don't forget also about all the crazy cataclysmic stuff that was going on during the War of Wrath. Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there? (Sorry, but I have a bit of a hard time thinking that the Balrog spent that much time just waiting very, very patiently for Dwarf fricasee...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, and once again, if we think of any underground complex of Morgoth's, it would go down with Beleriand, too, and probably be drowned. A Balrog doused after long swimming would be also less detectable, eh? Well, jokes aside, opening new passages by cracking the land makes a whole new possibility indeed. Also, speaking of secret passages and water, this reminds me of the Watcher in the water, who managed to get to the West Gate of Moria from who knows where, it is true that there was probably not much anybody to guard it at that time, but still, there must have been some good access way for it in the first place, so as for unexplored cracks in the mass of Caradhras or other mountains, I don't think it would be such a problem to get in (or the good old solution, drilling).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, speaking of secret passages and water, this reminds me of the Watcher in the water, who managed to get to the West Gate of Moria from who knows where,

Thinking about the Watcher, the creature was obviously not born in the lake - don't think that the Dwarves had had to contend with mini versions during their stay in Moria (there is the theory that the Watcher is actually a 'Flushie,' like some sewer alligator, but I'll let others speculate on that ). So the Watcher had to travel to the lake. If it could cross land, or at least any length, it wouldn't have remained in the lake.

So then it got into the lake from the water, meaning a passage appeared in the lake to some other place. If such passages from the surface to other areas are available to the Watcher, then they would be for the balrog as well.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by alatar

Thinking about the Watcher, the creature was obviously not born in the lake - don't think that the Dwarves had had to contend with mini versions during their stay in Moria (there is the theory that the Watcher is actually a 'Flushie,' like some sewer alligator, but I'll let others speculate on that ). So the Watcher had to travel to the lake. If it could cross land, or at least any length, it wouldn't have remained in the lake.

So then it got into the lake from the water, meaning a passage appeared in the lake to some other place. If such passages from the surface to other areas are available to the Watcher, then they would be for the balrog as well.

Well if you are of the camp that beieves that the Watcher was some sort of kracken, then in non-nativity to the lake or pre lake river, is almost guanteed since, presumably the Sirrannon is a freshwater river, and to my knowedge there are no freshwater squids. Actually, it's ability to survive in the lake makes me wonder if, maybe the dward had been dumping stuff (like tailings) in the river to make it salty enough for a marine creature to survive (if they did you migh say that the Watcher was just as much thier fault as waking the Balrog, since both were in a way due to thier mining.

[Inziladun]

I'm still unable to figure what made the Balrog decide to go where it did. If it wanted only to hide, there had to be much better options, far away from any Elves, Dwarves, or Edain. Perhaps it wanted to be close to the action, should Sauron require its services? But then, why did it not openly aid him rather than lying dormant for thousands of years until awakened, then skulking around in the dark bullying cannon-fodder Orcs?
I think I figured out something related though. I'd long wondered about the ultimate source of the 'ill will' and the conveniently bad weather faced by the Fellowship on Caradhras. It was their failure to climb to the Redhorn Gate, of course, that led them into Moria where the Balrog awaited them.

The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror....

Appendix A

Barazinbar was the Khuzdul name for Caradhras. The Balrog would have been quite familiar with the tunnels underneath that mountain. Perhaps it sensed the presence of the Ring, then used its 'divine' powers to defeat the Company's attempt on the Redhorn, knowing they would then be likely to enter its domain?
I'm probably the last to come to that conclusion, and it really isn't on topic, but it came as quite a revelation to me.

[radagastly]

To get back to the original question of the thread, why couldn't the Balrog have come in through the west-gate? For the dwarves, and for the elves of Eregion, it didn't exist until Celebrimbor arrived. (His name was on the door, wasn't it?)

Of course, this doesn't preclude some other possible entry. How about Durin's Stair? How about the top of the mountain? Of course, this implies that Balrogs can fly (wings?), but it also answers the fact that the Balrog seemed to know exactly how to find Durin's Stair (in his battle with Gandalf,) and how to get there. He's been there before. Sure seemed like it to me, at least at the time.

Of course, this doesn't explain the Watcher . . .

But, nothing explains the Watcher, except Tom Bombadil.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Don't forget also about all the crazy cataclysmic stuff that was going on during the War of Wrath. Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there? (Sorry, but I have a bit of a hard time thinking that the Balrog spent that much time just waiting very, very patiently for Dwarf fricasee...)

There's a note in the "Durin's Folk" section of the Appendices that suggests that rather than actually waking the Balrog, the Dwarves merely

released it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.

i.e. the Balrog was indeed trapped there by that time. It's not surprising– the area was geologically active even in the Third Age– too much for comfort, in fact– cf. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm.

Originally Posted by radagastly

To get back to the original question of the thread, why couldn't the Balrog have come in through the west-gate? For the dwarves, and for the elves of Eregion, it didn't exist until Celebrimbor arrived. (His name was on the door, wasn't it?)

Of course, this doesn't preclude some other possible entry. How about Durin's Stair? How about the top of the mountain? Of course, this implies that Balrogs can fly (wings?), but it also answers the fact that the Balrog seemed to know exactly how to find Durin's Stair (in his battle with Gandalf,) and how to get there. He's been there before. Sure seemed like it to me, at least at the time.

I refer you to my points earlier. As I said, I don't think the Balrog's hideout was connected to Moria at all until the dwarves broke into it while mining. For the sake of argument, it could have once been part of Moria proper, then sealed off by a rockfall or something– see above. However, I think it's much simpler to assume that Durin's Bane didn't deliberately choose a populous city to take its millennia-long nap in, but rather entered through some probably distant opening, travelled underground, and finally went to sleep in a cave that just happened to be near Moria.

And likely not all that close originally.

"The lodes led away north toward Caradhras, and down to darkness (...) they delved too greedily and too deep..."

–Gandalf in A Journey in the Dark.

I'd guess that at the time the Balrog took up residence, its cave or whatever was a long way from any workings of the dwarves– it was only much later that they mined deep enough to reach it.

As for how the Balrog knew Durin's Stair– well, it had plenty of time to explore Moria after its release, didn't it?

[alatar]

The gnawing creatures, during the breaking of Thangorodrim, began squirming in all directions - underground, of course - just like an bugs when you strike the nest. The balrog, being the only one that survived, obviously was a bit brighter than the others, and so followed the gnawing ones out away from the battle.

Eventually, the balrog could worm no more, and so lay down for a sleep in some cavern under Caradhras...that is until some hammer-banging Dwarves showed up...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by alatar

Eventually, the balrog could worm no more, and so lay down for a sleep in some cavern under Caradhras...that is until some hammer-banging Dwarves showed up...

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

That sounds like one of my days a few months ago, getting an unexpected (and unwelcomed) visitor in the ridiculously early hours of the morning. Ai! Ai! You saying I'm a balrog!?

I can see stealth being in the Balrog's repetoire. He wasn't a hulking beast that was all scrunched up in tunnels and mine shafts. The tallest Balrog was the one Glorfindel killed, which was said to be twice his height. Durin's Bane was roughly man-size, it was hard to discern his exact height because he could control shadows. Besides being cloaked in darkness (a stealth tool for sure!) He is described as leaping, bounding, and skipping across fissures to reach the Fellowship (and Gandalf on the bridge). They were Maiar after all.

[Sarumian]

From reading the LOTR I tend to think that embodied maiar were able to look much larger on some occasions.

Gandalf at Garadhras:

In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some antient king of stone set upon a hill.

Balrog at Kazad-Dum originally seemed to be

a dark form, man-shaped may be, yet greater

suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Ah, Your Highness be basically quoting the beautiful, yet terribly uncanonical works by the Iron Crown Enterprises, incorporating a vast complex of Morgoth's tunnels from the First Age, reaching from the Remains of Thangorodrim as far as the halls under Moria, and reaching further into the "Drowning-Deeps" underneath the Blue Mountains, the "Rusted Deeps" under the Iron Hills, and at last, the dark Under-Courts of Barad-Dur. So, great minds think alike?

Your Legginess doth credit me with more erudition than I can justly claim to possess, my familiarity with the scrolls of lore you mention amounting to little more than nil.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there?

Hmmm - the distance from Moria Gate to the Isle of Himling (closest remnant of Beleriand) was some 900-1000 miles as the Balrog flies*. I'm not quite sure what an earthquake that could be felt (and I mean felt, not registered by modern equipment) across such a distance would measure on the Richter scale - but who knows what the Lords of the West in their Wrath were capable of?
What about this: the Balrog, seeking to hide in the deepest recesses of Angband, was buried under what would after the cataclysm become the sea floor. It then wormed/burrowed/melted(?how much heat can an undoused Balrog generate?) its way through the continental crust till it found a nice cavern deep under Moria and decided to spend the next few millennia there.
But seriously, the real solution is, of course, much simpler:
*It flew to the top of Zirakzigil and descended the Endless Stair, etc., taking the same way as when it was pursued by Gandalf, only in the opposite direction. It's logical, isn't it? How else would it know the way so well?

(OT: Now that Legate mentions it, wayseer, are you actually, as your avatar seems to indicate, The Only Real Estel reincarnated? If so, I'm pleased and honored to meet you! (Well, pleased anyway!))

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

By the way, all the escape-from-Angband business and the fact that he was the sole survivor of his kind in the Third Age (or at least known one) makes me think whether this particular person, the one we know as Durin's Bane, wasn't a bit of a coward I mean, compared to the average of his kind...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Hmmm - the distance from Moria Gate to the Isle of Himling (closest remnant of Beleriand) was some 900-1000 miles as the Balrog flies*. I'm not quite sure what an earthquake that could be felt (and I mean felt, not registered by modern equipment) across such a distance would measure on the Richter scale - but who knows what the Lords of the West in their Wrath were capable of?

Oh, I am sure the earthquake must have been quite a feat. I mean, we are talking about the whole Beleriand drowning here, Ered Luin being torn apart and all that stuff. Unless I am mistaken, the Bay of Belfalas was created at that time, and it was also implied, I believe, that there used to be the great inland sea of Helcar (beyond which Men awoke) where later the lakes of Rhun and Núrnen existed. Go figure.

(OT: I was not talking about the avvie, although of course I know it, but I was thinking of wayseer as wayseer, it's just weird as I recall his name vividly from before.)

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(OT: I was not talking about the avvie, although of course I know it, but I was thinking of wayseer as wayseer, it's just weird as I recall his name vividly from before.)

Meaning he isn't TORE? Now I'm disappointed... and confused. Where do you remember him from? Phantom memory?

Back on topic (if only slightly): I hadn't considered Helcar shrinking into Rhûn and Nurnen in this context before, but it figures - the drowning of Beleriand probably had to be balanced by former sea floor being raised somewhere else; just like the New Lands created after/at the Fall of Númenor.
A wonder if anything in the west of Middle-earth was left standing at all. Potters and glaziers must have been very busy for decades after the War of Wrath.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

By the way, all the escape-from-Angband business and the fact that he was the sole survivor of his kind in the Third Age (or at least known one) makes me think whether this particular person, the one we know as Durin's Bane, wasn't a bit of a coward I mean, compared to the average of his kind...

Ah, give him a small break. Even Sauron the Great was frightened enough by the fall of Morgoth to humble himself before Eönwë and turn his back on his former master.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Oh, I am sure the earthquake must have been quite a feat. I mean, we are talking about the whole Beleriand drowning here, Ered Luin being torn apart and all that stuff. Unless I am mistaken, the Bay of Belfalas was created at that time, and it was also implied, I believe, that there used to be the great inland sea of Helcar (beyond which Men awoke) where later the lakes of Rhun and Núrnen existed. Go figure.

If an earthquake resulting from the War of Wrath was strong enough to affect the Misty Mountains and aid the balrog in hiding, wouldn't it also have severely damgaged Khazad-dûm?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

A wonder if anything in the west of Middle-earth was left standing at all. Potters and glaziers must have been very busy for decades after the War of Wrath.

The Barrow-downs survived.

[wayseer]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(OT: I was not talking about the avvie, although of course I know it, but I was thinking of wayseer as wayseer, it's just weird as I recall his name vividly from before.)

(Before? Before when?

But to the matter at hand - there have been stirrings of the Shadow elsewhere - but I am happy to be back.

Sorry - I do not mean to derail the thread).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, give him a small break. Even Sauron the Great was frightened enough by the fall of Morgoth to humble himself before Eönwë and turn his back on his former master.

Well, but Sauron was a great coward, we all know that But honestly. Encounter with Lúthien, bargaining with Eönwë, later with Ar-Pharazon, hiding in the East, hiding in Dol Guldur, and basically even hiding in Barad-Dur.

The cowards are the ones who survive, because the brave ones fight until somebody kills them. So all the brave Balrogs and other servants of Morgoth have died.

If an earthquake resulting from the War of Wrath was strong enough to affect the Misty Mountains and aid the balrog in hiding, wouldn't it also have severely damgaged Khazad-dûm?

And who says it didn't? I think there's no need to record a few broken halls, the thousands of Dwarves had enough time to repair it before Sauron came to Eriador...

Originally Posted by wayseer

(Before? Before when?

But to the matter at hand - there have been stirrings of the Shadow elsewhere - but I am happy to be back.

Sorry - I do not mean to derail the thread).

Interesting. I am quite certain I remember somebody by the name of wayseer posting at least around late 2006, resp. before it. I know that already back then I have noticed that this person and TORE have the same avatars. Aside from that, I definitely recall this person posting on the "where does your screenname come from" or some similar thread (wherever it was, somewhere where he could have explained it) that he picked the name "wayseer" as "seer of the way", that it is "fitting for a ranger". Honestly. Is it possible that there used to be a different user account which was deleted? I am puzzled. Because I also think *that* person used to have more posts. Like, into hundreds at least, I think. Or what? Am I crazy? (Okay, end of off-topic rant, but this is just scary and unexplainable, because even if it were so, that would be quite some coincidence to have a person with the same screenname AND avvie.)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The cowards are the ones who survive, because the brave ones fight until somebody kills them. So all the brave Balrogs and other servants of Morgoth have died

You seem to be mistaking bravery for stupidity and to withdraw from a battle that cannot be won is not necessarily a sign of cowardliness. (it can be though)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

You seem to be mistaking bravery for stupidity and to withdraw from a battle that cannot be won is not necessarily a sign of cowardliness. (it can be though)

Nope, but only in this case. Sauron was the typical coward, and I think on the side of evil the characters in LotR (or Sil etc.) were often more or less cowards. Sometimes defining bravery and stupidity depends only on the point of view, but very often you can tell withdrawal from cowardice, and the guys who survived from Angband seem to belong to the other bunch. Because otherwise you would be saying that all the other guys were just stupid not to withdraw, whereas certainly the question at the moment was something different, it was sort of a matter of honor - maybe not of bravery, but kind of stubbornness maybe, "no, we are not going to give up now, after such a long time we just won't admit that we were wrong all the time". Something like Saruman. Something unlike Galadriel. See, that's the difference. Three completely different approaches: Saruman, Galadriel, Sauron. Stubbornness, willingness to admit own faults, cowardly opportunism or just plain cowardice. And I would put the Balrog in the latter cathegory as well, because why would he flee, of all, while all his colleagues did stand and fight?