Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I also think the text supports Elrond as well being stronger than them.

I'm not even sure that Elrond was the most powerful Elf in his own kingdom.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not even sure that Elrond was the most powerful Elf in his own kingdom.

He wasn't that would be Glorfindel, but he is an exceptional case. His powers were greatly enhanced after his return.

Where did you get this from? I do not think this is true from what I remember. Sauron never came to Rivendell. Elrond established it after he and his forces were almost destroyed by Sauron's forces, but was saved in the end by a group of Dwarves and Elves. Sauron left pursuit of Elrond to take on these guys who had attacked him from behind and chased them all the back to Moria where they closed the gates on him. Sauron himself went to destroy Lindon afterwards, leaving behind a strong force to put a siege on Elrond so he would not be attacked from behind again.

I figure you are talking about this force that kept Elrond and his people in check at Imladris? Sauron was not with this force which in the end was destroyed with the aid of the Númenóreans after Gil-galad nearly destroyed Sauron. Sauron did not go to destroy Lindon because he could not take on Elrond. The reason he wanted to take Lindon was to get those Rings of Power the Elves were hiding from him. Elrond he could clearly deal with. Elrond was almost destroyed when Sauron destroyed Eregion, but was saved by another force of Dwarves/Elves.

Elrond was first sent by Gil-galad to help Celebrimbor. He arrives too late and it's here where his forces are about to be destroyed if not for the dwarves. The attack from Moria gives Elrond time to escape and found Imladris.

It's at this point that Sauron forgets about Lindon and goes around securing complete control of Eriador. He has complete control of Eriador except for Rivendell alone. It's only after he still cannot take Rivendell that he then sets his mind on invading Lindon. It's at this point the Numenoreans arrive. His inability to take Imladris is precisely why he had to leave a large part of his army back. It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's only after he still cannot take Rivendell that he then sets his mind on invading Lindon. It's at this point the Numenoreans arrive. His inability to take Imladris is precisely why he had to leave a large part of his army back. It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon.

I don't see it this way. Why did Sauron start the war? He wanted to take the work of the Smiths of Eregion, "the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures... but the Seven and the Three he could not find." [UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, p. 249]. When he realized the Three were not there he tried to torture their location out of Celebrimbor. Sauron did not attack Lindon because he could not take Rivendell. Lindon was where he felt the Rings were being held;

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;" [p. 250]

It is true that Rivendell and Lindon alone of all the lands of Eriador Sauron never took. As he ravaged the lands many fled to Rivendell and it appears Sauron's biggest interest in Rivendell at this point was, "leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" as he "marched west towards the land of Gil-galad" [p. 250]. This detachment was able to lay siege to Rivendell and keep them in check even though Rivendell itself was not overcome. Rivendell itself without the aid of other armies could not take out said detachment, "The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed." [p. 251]

You say, "It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon." Sauron's invasion of Eriador began in 1695. Rivendell was not even established until 1697. If you ask me, the process westward was slowly developing. Besides, when Rivendell was founded in 1697 Sauron was chasing the Elves and Dwarves back to Moria.

From the Tale of Years:

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't see it this way. Why did Sauron start the war? He wanted to take the work of the Smiths of Eregion, "the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures... but the Seven and the Three he could not find." [UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, p. 249]. When he realized the Three were not there he tried to torture their location out of Celebrimbor. Sauron did not attack Lindon because he could not take Rivendell. Lindon was where he felt the Rings were being held;

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;" [p. 250]

It is true that Rivendell and Lindon alone of all the lands of Eriador Sauron never took. As he ravaged the lands many fled to Rivendell and it appears Sauron's biggest interest in Rivendell at this point was, "leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" as he "marched west towards the land of Gil-galad" [p. 250]. This detachment was able to lay siege to Rivendell and keep them in check even though Rivendell itself was not overcome. Rivendell itself without the aid of other armies could not take out said detachment, "The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed." [p. 251]

You say, "It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon." Sauron's invasion of Eriador began in 1695. Rivendell was not even established until 1697. If you ask me, the process westward was slowly developing. Besides, when Rivendell was founded in 1697 Sauron was chasing the Elves and Dwarves back to Moria.

From the Tale of Years:

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.

Leaving a huge army at your back is a terrible mistake. Sauron only left the dwarves behind, because he could not get into Moria.

His aim was to take the rings, but he wanted to destroy everything in his path.

"But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."


"By that time Sauron had mastered all of Eriador save only besieged Imladris."

Sauron did not wish to leave a huge force behind and knew it would weaken his army.

It does not take 2 years to march an army to Lindon from Eriador. The implication of the text was that Sauron was at the siege of Imladris and then finding it too difficult to take, left a large portion of his forces there to go and take Lindon.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It does not take 2 years to march an army to Lindon from Eriador. The implication of the text was that Sauron was at the siege of Imladris and then finding it too difficult to take, left a large portion of his forces there to go and take Lindon.

Certainly not. I would say he wanted to consolidate his military hold on Eriador before marching further west which is why he had to keep an army back to keep Elrond from attacking his rear after all else was in his hands. It took him 2 years to take Eregion and a further 2 years to consolidate his hold on Eriador. I would not say that in those years for any great length of time he was at war with Rivendell as there was a good deal of migration to it during this period in which "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."

"as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward." [UT, p. 250]

If Sauron is fighting and laying siege to Rivendell all this time how is it that all these Elves got through said siege to swell Elrond's ranks? There are not many ways into Rivendell. It's a hard place to get to. The siege was initiated before Sauron took off to try and steal the Rings. Now obviously in a siege you block reinforcements from coming, but here we have it that "many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward". What kind of a siege is this then? Was there one since 1697 or only before Sauron set out to march on Lindon, "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" after consolidating his hold on Eriador?

To you Sauron took 5 years to decide to invade Lindon which is why he was taking control of Eriador. I'd say that he was taking control of Eriador to consolidate his military hold on the land before he marched his armies all the way west to wrest the Rings from the Elves. Sauron knew what he wanted to do. How to do it? This was his plan. Unfortunately for him, the time it took for him to take Eregion and consolidate his hold on Eriador was enough for the Númenóreans to come to the aid of the Elves.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Certainly not. I would say he wanted to consolidate his military hold on Eriador before marching further west which is why he had to keep an army back to keep Elrond from attacking his rear after all else was in his hands. It took him 2 years to take Eregion and a further 2 years to consolidate his hold on Eriador. I would not say that in those years for any great length of time he was at war with Rivendell as there was a good deal of migration to it during this period in which "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."

"as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward." [UT, p. 250]

If Sauron is fighting and laying siege to Rivendell all this time how is it that all these Elves got through said siege to swell Elrond's ranks? There are not many ways into Rivendell. It's a hard place to get to. The siege was initiated before Sauron took off to try and steal the Rings. Now obviously in a siege you block reinforcements from coming, but here we have it that "many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward". What kind of a siege is this then? Was there one since 1697 or only before Sauron set out to march on Lindon, "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" after consolidating his hold on Eriador?

To you Sauron took 5 years to decide to invade Lindon which is why he was taking control of Eriador. I'd say that he was taking control of Eriador to consolidate his military hold on the land before he marched his armies all the way west to wrest the Rings from the Elves. Sauron knew what he wanted to do. How to do it? This was his plan. Unfortunately for him, the time it took for him to take Eregion and consolidate his hold on Eriador was enough for the Númenóreans to come to the aid of the Elves.

Consolidating his military hold of Eriador would mean taking out Rivendell. From a strategic point, taking out Rivendell was key and equally key from a personal point of view. Sauron hated Luthien more than anyone else and never forgot that she shamed him. He had a vendetta against all of her descendants. Earendil calling down the power of Valinor would only increase his hatred for Elrond. To think he would spend 2 years without personally trying to take Rivendell seems highly unlikely.

Sauron would have had to march to Rivendell giving fleeing elves time to escape there first.

It does not say Sauron sent a strong detachment to contain Rivendell, but he left one already in place. It also says he called together his scattered troops and then marched West.

Sauron with the bulk of his army was most likely at Rivendell, whilst he had other bands destroying groups of men and elves around Eriador.

It makes no sense for Sauron himself to focus on small groups of elves, whilst his most hated enemy is left alone for two years.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sauron would have had to march to Rivendell giving fleeing elves time to escape there first.

<snip>

Sauron with the bulk of his army was most likely at Rivendell, whilst he had other bands destroying groups of men and elves around Eriador.

Here I cannot take you seriously. Do you see the contradiction in your thoughts?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He wasn't that would be Glorfindel, but he is an exceptional case. His powers were greatly enhanced after his return.

I can't say who exactly is the most powerful Elf in Rivendell. Certainly there were few left for;

"here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269]

Gandalf expounds on the qualities of some of these lords dwelling in Rivendell to Frodo. There were Elves from Aman of great power dwelling there. Who the greatest of them is I cannot guess. Glorfindel points out to Aragorn and the Hobbits;

"There are few, even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south." [bk:1, ch. 12, p. 256]

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I can't say who exactly is the most powerful Elf in Rivendell. Certainly there were few left for;

"here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269]

Gandalf expounds on the qualities of some of these lords dwelling in Rivendell to Frodo. There were Elves from Aman of great power dwelling there. Who the greatest of them is I cannot guess. Glorfindel points out to Aragorn and the Hobbits;

"There are few, even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south." [bk:1, ch. 12, p. 256]

Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer. Considering Gandalf the grey also died killing a Balrog should indicate his power. After his death, his powers were greatly enhanced and he was closer to a Maiar than an elf.

"For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice."

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer. Considering Gandalf the grey also died killing a Balrog should indicate his power. After his death, his powers were greatly enhanced and he was closer to a Maiar than an elf.

"For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice."

I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.

Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

So? Before that Sauron took out Finrod and Beren [The Lay of Leithian; 2167-2214]. Why should his fighting with Elendil make a difference that the two of them defeated Melkor's greatest servant?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

I never said it does, but you did say Glorfindel was, "an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer". My point is that there were other Elves of great power who also slew Maia, and obviously there are those who did not slay any Balrog who are of great power.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

How are you going to argue that, "Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power" when I mention other Elves and their battles with Maiar, but you continue to say Glorfindel is "a Balrog slayer" as if it qualifies more with him?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

I disagree with you taking that to mean Glorfindel was the strongest.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

By that logic as the head Elrond is the most powerful, stronger than even Gandalf who is not at the head. I'm not sure that sitting in a position of honor necessarily makes reference to one's power compared to all others.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.

Again I disagree with you. Evidence says that Galadriel "was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 270] When did Sauron personally attack Imladris?