Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer. Considering Gandalf the grey also died killing a Balrog should indicate his power. After his death, his powers were greatly enhanced and he was closer to a Maiar than an elf.

"For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice."

I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.

Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

So? Before that Sauron took out Finrod and Beren [The Lay of Leithian; 2167-2214]. Why should his fighting with Elendil make a difference that the two of them defeated Melkor's greatest servant?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

I never said it does, but you did say Glorfindel was, "an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer". My point is that there were other Elves of great power who also slew Maia, and obviously there are those who did not slay any Balrog who are of great power.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

How are you going to argue that, "Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power" when I mention other Elves and their battles with Maiar, but you continue to say Glorfindel is "a Balrog slayer" as if it qualifies more with him?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

I disagree with you taking that to mean Glorfindel was the strongest.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

By that logic as the head Elrond is the most powerful, stronger than even Gandalf who is not at the head. I'm not sure that sitting in a position of honor necessarily makes reference to one's power compared to all others.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.

Again I disagree with you. Evidence says that Galadriel "was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 270] When did Sauron personally attack Imladris?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

So? Before that Sauron took out Finrod and Beren [The Lay of Leithian; 2167-2214]. Why should his fighting with Elendil make a difference that the two of them defeated Melkor's greatest servant?

Physical battle is not the only indicator of power. Curufin could capture Luthien, but she was leagues above him in power. Nor did Sauron take out Finrod and Beren by himself in armed combat. How can you say having the help of a very powerful Numenorean Lord like Elendil did not matter?

I never said it does, but you did say Glorfindel was, "an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer". My point is that there were other Elves of great power who also slew Maia, and obviously there are those who did not slay any Balrog who are of great power.

Only three elves ever slew Maiar. Gil-galad worked in tandem with Elendil. The difference between Glorfindel and the others is that he became MUCH more powerful afterwards.

How are you going to argue that, "Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power" when I mention other Elves and their battles with Maiar, but you continue to say Glorfindel is "a Balrog slayer" as if it qualifies more with him?

A great deal of power is needed to fight a Maiar of any sort and that is only three elves were able to do so, but defeating someone physically does not mean you are of equal power. Power is not just physical, but also spiritual. Galadriel the mightiest of the elves, who remained is still not likely to be able to defeat Gil-galad in a battle despite being a great warrior herself. Not all power is used just for fight.

I disagree with you taking that to mean Glorfindel was the strongest.

It is not a definitive statement, but it implies he was. Added with the all the other bits then he seems to be the most powerful.

By that logic as the head Elrond is the most powerful, stronger than even Gandalf who is not at the head. I'm not sure that sitting in a position of honor necessarily makes reference to one's power compared to all others.

I never said it was a reference to power alone, but also a place of honour. Elrond as Head of the House would have the head seat. Other indications that Gil-galad was the most powerful is that he is given command of the forces of Rivendell.

Again I disagree with you. Evidence says that Galadriel "was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 270] When did Sauron personally attack Imladris?

That would be great except Glorfindel did not remain in Middle-Earth. He died, repented and was greatly enhanced before being sent back alongside the Istari to fight against Sauron.

EDIT
Some further quotes about Glorfindel.

He talks about how Glorfindel being a hero of the first age would be suited to come back then says this.

"This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel."

After talking about his reincarnation.

"We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure almost 'angelic'."

Talks about his friendship with Gandalf and then once more mentions his power.

"he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell..."

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom tom

elf beat other elf? tom not care.

all elf sissy. tom beat elf.

tom have power. tom bot.

tom make sissy elf cry.

Tom Tom's grammar could be neater,

Of that one can't deny;

But worse, he's muddled Bombadil's meter --

For that he should be tried.

[Galadriel55]

Ok, seriously, who is this? Nerwen? Boro? sally? Someone else?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ok, seriously, who is this? Nerwen? Boro? sally? Someone else?

It's the t(remendously) o(nerous) m(osquitobot) program, determined to suck the fun out of every corner of the 'net and cover us all with imitation Rolex watches and time shares to oceanfront condos in Kansas City!

To stay sort of on-topic in this thread, I'll go with Galadriel as the greater. Standing up to Melian and not giving a straight answer about the flight of the Noldor, forming the White Council, throwing down Dol Guldur with her bare hands, all without mussing her hair, gives her the edge over Daddy's Little Girl™.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom tom

tom prose poet.

Tom Tom, a prose poet?

I certainly wouldn't know it.

To capitalize like ee cummings

Takes poor Bomby down a-dumbing.

So please, forsake the ungainly rhyme

And post again some other time.