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#1 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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"as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward." [UT, p. 250] If Sauron is fighting and laying siege to Rivendell all this time how is it that all these Elves got through said siege to swell Elrond's ranks? There are not many ways into Rivendell. It's a hard place to get to. The siege was initiated before Sauron took off to try and steal the Rings. Now obviously in a siege you block reinforcements from coming, but here we have it that "many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward". What kind of a siege is this then? Was there one since 1697 or only before Sauron set out to march on Lindon, "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" after consolidating his hold on Eriador? To you Sauron took 5 years to decide to invade Lindon which is why he was taking control of Eriador. I'd say that he was taking control of Eriador to consolidate his military hold on the land before he marched his armies all the way west to wrest the Rings from the Elves. Sauron knew what he wanted to do. How to do it? This was his plan. Unfortunately for him, the time it took for him to take Eregion and consolidate his hold on Eriador was enough for the Númenóreans to come to the aid of the Elves.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#2 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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Sauron would have had to march to Rivendell giving fleeing elves time to escape there first. It does not say Sauron sent a strong detachment to contain Rivendell, but he left one already in place. It also says he called together his scattered troops and then marched West. Sauron with the bulk of his army was most likely at Rivendell, whilst he had other bands destroying groups of men and elves around Eriador. It makes no sense for Sauron himself to focus on small groups of elves, whilst his most hated enemy is left alone for two years. |
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#3 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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Here I cannot take you seriously. Do you see the contradiction in your thoughts?
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#4 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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Sauron takes out Eregion and then turns to drive back the dwarves. During this time Elrond flees North. Sauron cannot get through Moria so turns back to conquer Eriador. He heads North with the bulk of his army to Rivendell. Elves and men in line of his march start fleeing to Rivendell. Gets to Rivendell with the bulk of his army and puts it under siege. Sends out other troops to take areas in Eriador whilst he sieges Rivendell. After a year or so realises taking Rivendell is too hard and would have a better chance with the rings. Has to leave a sizeable force at Rivendell and sets out for Lindon. Calls up another southern army. Numenoreans arrive. Fairly straight forward and logical. Now let's compare it with your version. Takes Eregion. Heads back to take out the drawves. Cannot get past Moria. Decides to take over Eriador. Sauron personally leads the bulk of his army destroying small groups of men and elves, whilst his most hated enemy is unchecked. For 2 years he completely ignores his most hated and biggest threat in Eriador. Decides to invade Lindon. Suddenly remembers he has left his most hated and biggest threat unchecked in Eriador and only then sends part of his force to siege Rivendell, leaving his army weakened. Now which seems more logical and makes the most sense? EDIT In addition Tolkien meant to develop how Glorfindel was specifically sent by the Valar to help Elrond deal with the wars against Sauron in the second age. Last edited by cellurdur; 12-30-2013 at 11:22 AM. |
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#5 | |||||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250]. Why Lindon? Because at Lindon "he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings". Quote:
"leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." It is when he "marched west towards the lands of Gil-galad" that they "ravaged as they went"[ 250]. They also ravaged the lands as he moved from the south back up into the north of Eriador. Again, since fleeing north is a logical thing to do for the Elves as Sauron was coming from the south of Eriador to "gain the mastery of Eriador" [remember, most of Eriador was to the north anyways from his southern position]. Quote:
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My point is that Sauron Invades Eriador, to take the Rings Fights off Elrond and Celeborn until he sacks Eregion "he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough BOTH to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion." [p. 249] Chases Elrond and his forces which he could have destroyed had not Elves and Dwarves from Khazad-dûm and Lórinand saved him. "He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear" [p. 250] Leaves Elrond and chases his saviours to the mines of Moria. "turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back" Heads north, not to lay a siege on Rivendell, but because most of Eriador is to the north which is where he has to go if he plans on gaining the mastery of it. No clear statement is made that he went North to lay a siege on Gondor, other then that he laid siege to it in order to go west and prevent an attack from his rear. Otherwise it is quite clear that when Sauron went to invade Eriador he, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [p. 249] He gathers his forces together since he really wants the Rings and leaves a strong force behind to prevent an attack from the rear. They march west continuing their assault on Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon. They are routed when the Númenóreans arrive and his force at Imladris is trapped between Elrond and Gil-galad's forces and destroyed. Sauron barely makes it out. Quote:
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It appears to me you are trying to bring various excuses up to bolster your arguments. Sauron was also beaten in tandem by Luthien and Huan earlier in the first Age, and it is you I believe, who believes Luthien to be the most powerful of all the Elves. So we have Luthien + Huan [The Lay of Leithian; 2726-89] beat Sauron, and Gil-galad + Elendil beat a bolstered Sauron with the One Ring. Why are you trying to belittle Gild-galad's efforts? Sure Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man, but Huan is no cupcake either. Quote:
"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds" [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125] Though he did not win, and died of his wounds after his sons saved him, he and he alone " was made the mightiest... of all the Children of Ilúvatar" [ch. 11, p. 112] Quote:
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No it doesn't. Galadriel was. You even mentioned that of the Elves who remained in the 3rd Age from the 2nd [which included Glorfindel because he clearly remained] she was the most powerful. "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] I disagree, that is, "added with the all the other bits" concerning Galadriel. He is powerful, do not get me wrong, but I think there are still others who are like that who "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power" FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 1 p. 269] Quote:
Yes he did. He came back around 1200 of the 2nd Age probably and remained in the 3rd Age. In fact the portion in which Galadriel is said to be the mightiest says "all the Elves" not just of the Eldar who came from Aman.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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You have Sauron happily weaken his forces and leave a large part of his army behind, instead of trying to take Rivendell first. Quote:
Only two three elves have ever been known to have killed a Maiar and in the case of Gil-galad it seems like Elendil got the final blow. All three died. Once more Gil-galad did not fight alone, but had the help of the equally powerful and mighty King of Arnor and Gondor. When you face a foe like a Balrog it is always a spiritual battle as well as a physical one. Glorfindel would have had to use both to win. However, the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return. Quote:
You ignore that Glorfindel already one of the most powerful elves, has his powers significantly increased and is now almost an equal to Olorin. Not Gandalf the Grey, but Olorin in Aman. Quote:
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