The Three Elven Rings

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think you are just basing this off pure speculation.

Just because he studied it for many years doesn't mean he totally figured it out.

It's not even known whether Saruman mixed orcs and men to get the uruk-hai, it's assumed and probably the likely choice, but it's not certain. So, I doubt whether there's any mention of Saruman's ring inabling him to create the race. Also, with the ornament comment, Saruman was from Aule, like Sauron, both naturally being greedy.

As I've said, you can choose to believe what you want since I don't have any quotes at my disposal. I knew very well that Saruman was from the house of Aule, which is why I said that this wouldn't be impossible for Saruman to replicate, even of a lesser measure, the might of the great rings. Remember when Gandalf saw Saurman's clothes changing color... & then he spotted the ring. He wouldn't have forged a ring just for vanity's sake now would he?

[Fingolfin II]

I'm inclined to agree with Boromir here. As far as I know, Saruman's ring was only mentioned once in the whole entire story and that was when Gandalf spoke about their encounter to the Council of Elrond. Gorthaur, you have overlooked the fact that Sauron was the one who created the Uruk-hai; Saruman just experimented. Besides, if the ring was such a big factor in the story as you suggest, I'm sure Tolkien would have mentioned it more than once. To my mind, the Ring was more of an example of Saruman's former wisdom being replaced by arrogance and his attempt to copy Sauron in the hope of sharing some of his power.

Saruman deeply studied the lore of the Great Rings, but whether this was enough for him to actually replicate the power of a Great Ring is doubtful. I mean, even the grandson of the greatest Elf-smith ever probably couldn't have forged the Great Rings with such potency as they contain without Sauron's instruction.

As Boro said, it is not entirely known about the origin of the Uruk-hai, though it is likely there was cross-breeding between Men and Orcs. This is supported by a quote said by Gandalf somewhere in LotR, as well as by a discussion between Pippin and Aragorn in Isengard.

[Boromir88]

He wouldn't have forged a ring just for vanity's sake now would he?

I'm not saying it's impossible, since Tolkien never says that the ring has no use, it's not impossible that the ring had powers. I'm just saying how it's unlikely.

1- The ring has no use for Saruman in the Shire.

2- as Fingolfin says it appears to just be Saruman's attempt to be like "Sauron."

3- the claim "Why would Saruman keep it if it had no use?" is weak, since Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, all kept their rings after they lost their power.

With that being said, it's still not impossible, the ring could have had some use for Saruman. Word of advice for future posts, don't be so quick to jump to say someone's wrong if you don't have anything to back it up.

[drigel]

I agree w/Boro - I havent found any evidence that Saruman's ring was used in breeding UrukHai or anything else.

On Sauron's influence on the 3 - well from a technical point of view - if you have a blueprint of something (a building - software - anything) you dont need to be the creator to have an influence or impact on it. Now, if you had any hand at all in writing the blueprint - you have all sorts of ways to control or destroy or influence the product at any time. Thats how i see it anyways.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm not saying it's impossible, since Tolkien never says that the ring has no use, it's not impossible that the ring had powers. I'm just saying how it's unlikely.

1- The ring has no use for Saruman in the Shire.

2- as Fingolfin says it appears to just be Saruman's attempt to be like "Sauron."

3- the claim "Why would Saruman keep it if it had no use?" is weak, since Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, all kept their rings after they lost their power.

With that being said, it's still not impossible, the ring could have had some use for Saruman. Word of advice for future posts, don't be so quick to jump to say someone's wrong if you don't have anything to back it up.

Ah yes, Boromir, I apologize for that rashness, but as you've said... the possibilities are open. I would seriously doubt that his ring sat idle upon his finger, & yes, the bearer of the three kept their rings even when they were shorn of their powers yet when Gandalf discovered this, the One Ring still existed. I didn't know Sauron invented the Uruk-hai. Can you give me some quotes on that b'coz IF I remember correctly, Sauron's orcs could not travel by daylight. He had to create phantom stormclouds just to ease their passage towards Minas Tirith.
As for the topic, didn't Sauron discovered the existence of three only after he laid Eregion to waste... because Celebrimbor, as was said, made the three in secret & not even Sauron knew, but perhaps the above analogy is sufficient enough.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Let me say: I think they couldn't have.

Gwaith-i-Mirdain was the only one (I think) whom Sauron instructed in the forging of the Great Rings. Then he ransacked the place. Even if written records of the process was kept, I don't think it would have survived the Sack of Eregion.

And then there's the thought that the Gwaith might be all dead. So the only two ways of that information surviving (archaelogical records and word-of-mouth) might have been gone.

[aiea]

He wouldn't have forged a ring just for vanity's sake now would he?

Vanity and Pride are the same motivations for Melkor or for Sauron to do the rings.
And in some ways, may be ,Celembrimbor too.
I believe Saruman was able to discover some secrets about Light. White is just a base. It is not fool in believe it.
It is the same motivation that pushed the Ainur to sing.
From void make Ea.
But give existence to a color without understand the Law that is the White is foolishness . To be fool is bad just when one not sees it.
Barbalbero said that Saruman mind were made of metal. But to search of what metal is done Narya is one of the most meaningful search for a man. Gandalf had to die to find properly it.
At the end Melkor was reunited with void & Eru.
The elves existence probably ( i guess) was to teach love and light and sing the gift of life, but were bond to Arda.
Men could go further, but at the end we all have to meet again the void & Eru. The difference is all in the tales we have helped to be told.