'Bottom, thou art translated.'

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh dear, and they have the stamp of approval from the National Association for the Teaching of English. I suppose the teachers there think that poetry and metre and rhyme don't play any role in the art of reading.

And because they see it as an acceptable way of teaching Shakespeare they assume there's no problem - to me the fact that they see some kind of 'equivalence' speaks volumes about their own limitations. I recall a Minister in the Education Department some years back claiming Bob Dylan was a greater poet than Keats. Now, I think Dylan has produced some great songs, & is a gifted artist, but greater than Keats?? But then this attitude seems to be a commonplace - 'If Ithink Dylan is greater than Keats then Dylan is greater than Keats. If I think Eastenders is comparable to Lear then it is. If I think Shakespeare needs bringing up to the standard of Spiderman, then lets get the comic book writers to 'adapt' the stories'. Someone should tell

Ian McNeilly, director of the National Association for the Teaching of English

he needs educating. This is dumbing Shakespeare down to the level of the lowest common denominator & telling kids who read the 'quick' versions that they've read Shakespeare. In reality, its not 'Shakespeare' at all, in any way, shape or form.

Actually, a few years back the BBC produced some animated versions of Shakespeare's plays, using narration & original text, which would serve far better as introductions:
Hamlet http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sFDb8S...elated&search=
The Tempest http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7SeJza...elated&search=
(They also produced adaptations of The Canterbury Tales, btw)

[obloquy]

Yeah, yeah. We get your intellectual outrage. blah. The comics are intended to spark an interest in Shakespeare, not replace his work. It sounds to me like the kids these are intended for would either get very little out of reading Shakespeare (due to their lack of interest), or wouldn't read him at all.

Originally Posted by Article

They are targeted at older primary pupils and teenagers

These are for children. Where's the harm?

But then this attitude seems to be a commonplace - 'If Ithink Dylan is greater than Keats then Dylan is greater than Keats."

So "Dylan is greater than Keats" is just some crackpot's dissenting opinion, but "Keats is greater than Dylan" is an objectively established fact? Who do you think you are?

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

These are for children. Where's the harm?

Well, there's a real danger that they might not be able to tell the difference between Dylan & Keats when they grow up.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, there's a real danger that they might not be able to tell the difference between Dylan & Keats when they grow up.

I know you're just trying to be clever so I don't expect you to explain how that might follow from Shakespeare comics.

I don't see the disaster, though. Kids come out of high school not knowing the difference between capitalism and communism, too; they're not given any sort of perspective on Pearl Harbor and the horrific culmination of U.S. retaliation; they're made to read Hemingway and completely ignore Dostoevsky; they learn to sing Disney songs in music class instead of being exposed to Chopin and Dvorak. There's a lot of things to whine about when it comes to education. So what? It'd be nice if everybody's idea of what constitutes a meaningful education could be fulfilled in tax-supported schools, but it's not going to happen, and a comic book used to spark an interest in Shakespeare is better than ignoring him altogether, whether deliberately through curriculum, or through the kids' lack of interest.

Whether Dylan is "greater" than Keats remains a matter of opinion, regardless of how hard you blow.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I know you're just trying to be clever so I don't expect you to explain how that might follow from Shakespeare comics.

They aren't 'Shakespeare' comics. The 'quick' versions contain nothing of Shakespeare's poetry, & the full versions, which contain the original text, are redundant. And the 'art' is terrible....

a comic book used to spark an interest in Shakespeare is better than ignoring him altogether, whether deliberately through curriculum, or through the kids' lack of interest.

Oh, believe me, there are many 'educationalists' in this country who would love nothing better than to dump Shakespeare altogether & replace him with something more 'relevant'. This is their attempt to make Shakespeare 'easy' - not for the kids, but for the teachers.

Whether Dylan is "greater" than Keats remains a matter of opinion, regardless of how hard you blow.

No its isn't. Keats is greater than Dylan. Bach is greater than Andrew Lloyd Webber. Tolkien is greater than Robert Jordan. etc, etc, etc I place no value on 'opinion' at all, unless its the informed opinion of someone who knows what they're talking about & can offer some evidence in support. Now, I'm not saying that Keats is more 'popular' than Dylan, but that's another issue. 'I prefer 'X' to 'Y'' is totally different to ''X' is greater than 'Y''. The problem is that some (the minister I mentioned for instance) don't make that distinction.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

They aren't 'Shakespeare' comics. The 'quick' versions contain nothing of Shakespeare's poetry, & the full versions, which contain the original text, are redundant. And the 'art' is terrible....

That's because the poetry of Shakespeare is not what's going to interest kids. The idea is that the things that happen in the plays are exciting, but kids rarely realize that because the language is virtually impenetrable to the novice. If an interest can be created, Shakespeare can be taught; if not, he's not the kind of author you can force down a kid's throat just by making his work required reading.

Originally Posted by davem

Oh, believe me, there are many 'educationalists' in this country who would love nothing better than to dump Shakespeare altogether & replace him with something more 'relevant'.

Which is bad in your opinion, but things have to be left out of curriculum and your assessment of Shakespeare as necessary for the average teenager may not be all that well-considered. Shakespeare is not fundamental to education. He is a luxury, and an introduction to his plays via a medium that kids are familiar with is better than nothing.

Originally Posted by davem

This is their attempt to make Shakespeare 'easy' - not for the kids, but for the teachers.

Those lazy, incompetent teachers. They should have their pay cut. Tell me, do you think they're having difficulty teaching Shakespeare to children because they do not understand him themselves and have no idea how to teach his work? Or is it, perhaps, because most kids in school have almost zero interest in reading anything? Kids get out of school what they put into it.

Originally Posted by davem

No its isn't. Keats is greater than Dylan. Bach is greater than Andrew Lloyd Webber. Tolkien is greater than Robert Jordan. etc, etc, etc I place no value on 'opinion' at all, unless its the informed opinion of someone who knows what they're talking about & can offer some evidence in support. Now, I'm not saying that Keats is more 'popular' than Dylan, but that's another issue. 'I prefer 'X' to 'Y'' is totally different to ''X' is greater than 'Y''. The problem is that some (the minister I mentioned for instance) don't make that distinction.

You're imagining a distinction where there isn't one. I'd like to see the data you're referencing. Did you have to extract samples of Dylan and Keats themselves, or were you able to run the tests using pieces of their published materials? I'm really eager to see how the inherent value of these artists' work can be quantified and compared. Because unless you can do that, you're talking about opinion and taste, regardless of how many other opinions validate yours.

Edit: Just so we're clear, I don't know much about Keats or Dylan. I've probably been exposed to an equal amount of each, and didn't really put much effort into either of them. If we were to go into it, you might be able to convince me to agree with you. That's beside the point, though. This guy believes that Dylan is a greater poet than Keats. When someone says "Dude 1 is greater than Dude 2," I hear nothing more than an opinion being voiced, and while I may wonder why they hold an opinion that seems so backwards, I know that it would be literally impossible to prove the point one way or another.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

That's because the poetry of Shakespeare is not what's going to interest kids. The idea is that the things that happen in the plays are exciting, but kids rarely realize that because the language is virtually impenetrable to the novice. If an interest can be created, Shakespeare can be taught; if not, he's not the kind of author you can force down a kid's throat just by making his work required reading.

If you're only going to teach kids what interests them they're going to learn nothing. If the language is 'impenetrable' to them (& we're not talking about 5 year olds here, but older children & teens) its because the kind of literature they're exposed to is so dire. Shakespeare is modern English. Mind you, I've seen Milton & Bunyan dismissed as 'impenetrable' too.

And the whole point I'm making, btw, is not that young children should be thrown in at the deep end & given no help in understanding Shakespeare. If you look at the links to the animated Shakespeare I gave earlier, you'll see some very clever ways 'in'. The problem with these versions is not that they give children a way 'in', but that they focus purely on plot & not on poetry. This is like trying to teach about Wordsworth by producing comic books full of pictures of clouds & daffodils.

Which is bad in your opinion, but things have to be left out of curriculum and your assessment of Shakespeare as necessary for the average teenager may not be all that well-considered. Shakespeare is not fundamental to education. He is a luxury, and an introduction to his plays via a medium that kids are familiar with is better than nothing.

And what is 'necessary' then? Stuff that has 'practical' uses, which will enable them to pass exams & get jobs? If you can't use it to get on then its optional?

Those lazy, incompetent teachers. They should have their pay cut. Tell me, do you think they're having difficulty teaching Shakespeare to children because they do not understand him themselves and have no idea how to teach his work? Or is it, perhaps, because most kids in school have almost zero interest in reading anything? Kids get out of school what they put into it.

I think its the former in some cases. And, sorry, but its the teachers' job to teach.

You're imagining a distinction where there isn't one. I'd like to see the data you're referencing. Did you have to extract samples of Dylan and Keats themselves, or were you able to run the tests using pieces of their published materials? I'm really eager to see how the inherent value of these artists' work can be quantified and compared. Because unless you can do that, you're talking about opinion and taste, regardless of how many other opinions validate yours.

So, anything goes. There are no objective standards by which we judge quality. A trashy soap opera is equivalent to Hamlet if you think it is? Nothing is objectively better than anything else? Is the 'quick' comic book version of Henry V as good as the original? If so, why bother with the original at all? Why bother moving on to the original - why not just stick with the quick version then?

And yet, we seem to be going round in circles here. We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

Or to get back to Tolkien - is 'boss' a good translation of 'master'? Or would 'Meister' be better?

[Lalaith]

ANd then I found this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

Oh, Davem, you should know better than to ever take *anything* at face value that you read in the Mail, they constantly misquote, make mischief and de-contextualise everything. This quote:

The genius of Shakespeare is in the language, but for some students understanding it can be a struggle. It will be useful for teachers to have three different versions of the text."

indicates that this is all about differentiated learning - the simplified version is intended for kids who wouldn't be able to access the Shakespearean language for whatever reason - because they have EAL (English as an Additional Language) or SEN (Special Educational Needs).

Its not particularly controversial and it's perfectly good teaching practice - in your average mixed ability class, you could have some kid with an IQ of 55, or a kid who arrived from Poland or Somalia a month ago and can barely speak the language. You've got to teach them too, not just the kid who's going to get an A*, but in order to do so you have to give them different learning materials to help them access the curriculum at whatever level they can.

KIds in the UK have to study closely a set Shakespeare text - including use of language, dramatic effects of various scenes etc - for their English SATs at Key Stage 3 (aged 14) they also have to study another set text for their GCSEs - both in English and English Literature. That isn't going to change any time soon, whatever the scaremongers say.

But of course Keats is greater than Dylan. It's not about personal preference - Milton is also greater than Dylan, and I find Milton boring as hell. (There, I've said it.)

Now that I've disagreed with both of you, I'll depart.