Ulmo and the Ring War

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very nice post, and welcome to the 'Downs, Feliandreka. I like the idea of Ulmo trying to help the Children still, however there are some things in your post which I would dare to oppose.

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

Ulmo has power in all waters, again from several references in Silmarilion, and therefore was most likely present at the Gladden Fields where the Ring betrayed Isildur. Being a major magical item (forgive the D&D sounding description of the Ring) which was host to a large portion of Sauron's power, it seems reasonable to me that Ulmo the Valar or one of his Miar minions may have known about it simply by its being in a finger of his domain, Anduin the Great.

Here is another leap of conjecture based on my own faith in Ulmo and his lasting concern for the Children. He knew where Gollum had taken the Ring by virtue of being connected to the underground lake Gollum called home "at the very foundations of the Earth" (there it is again, another reference to Ulmo's power from the Silmarilion) that lake is connected by waterways to Anduin the Great and the Sea. At the time there is no defilement in the Misty Mountains to keep Ulmo out as Morgoth and Sauron were able to do. Goblins have no such power. The only creature capable of that might have been the Balrog but he was many miles to the south in the Mines of Moria.

The point is, I think Ulmo did not have any power anymore over all the waters in Middle-Earth, as he didn't have in Beleriand a long time ago. All I say here is just my belief, but I think that it was not about particular rule in the sense that the waters in the lands ruled by Morgoth or Sauron would be spoiled and the rest would be okay and clear from his influence. I believe the "essence of evil" was spreading simply by the time as it went, because I got the impression from the books that when it comes to things being spoiled, with Arda (Arda Marred!) it goes from good to the worse. Beleriand was slowly "overrun" by Morgoth and Ulmo could no longer use the waters to their "full potential", so to say. Ulmo tells Tuor:

Originally Posted by UT

and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor.

I believe this does not apply only to this era, i.e. that by the War of Wrath and defeat of Morgoth this effect is not annuled. First, Beleriand of course drowns. Second, after the Drowning of Númenor the Valar lay down their reign over Arda. So technically, even then if Ulmo still HAD any power over the waters in M-E, he should NOT have it anymore after that. However, here I would accept, and maybe even encourage, the possibility that Ulmo would not simply leave it like that. Being the "voice that gainsayeth", he could have as well kind of trespassed this, even further than the Valar just sending the Istari to Middle-Earth (besides, Ulmo did not send any of "his" Maiar with the Wizards - interestingly, as he cared for M-E - so the logical explanation could be that he was engaged with M-E already in some other way, and possibly even on a deeper level).
Nevertheless, I believe, as it usually goes in M-E, that what had already been marred by Morgoth in the First Age was NOT undone, and maybe it even continued, and Men and Elves remained "blind and deaf", in their basis, or then, when Sauron emerged, they again grew "blind and deaf". And as Sauron's power grew, I would say that it's been the same as with Morgoth: Ulmo's power, if there was any still, was withdrawing from the land, too. And that was despite whether Sauron's power was or was not currently growing. It was sufficient that he still existed. Remember Mirkwood: even after Sauron left it, it remained a dark place (and he really left it, for some time, totally).

I am not saying that the waters were totally marred. I think actually, water by itself, "on the very molecular structure", so to speak, was "unmarrable" and had something good in itself (it echoed the Music the best of all things); so for example the Nazgul could not cross the water, whether there would have been Ulmo's direct power right now or not. But I believe if he wanted to interfere directly, he would have to at minimum face many obstacles, and for getting information from the waters in M-E, he certainly got a lot of "interference".

A side note: Have you noticed something interesting in this text I quoted? Ulmo refers to Morgoth as - Melkor! That's actually nice. Everybody started to call him Morgoth in Middle-Earth, and probably had you asked me what Ulmo calls him, without looking into the text, I'd say Morgoth, if for nothing then perhaps just because the people in Middle-Earth are used to it. Interesting, huh? I think after all, Ulmo thinks of Morgoth as "Melkor" - okay, he was used to it, but still - for Tuor it must have been quite shocking to hear "Melkor". I can't think of a good example from our world, but just imagine let's say a band of rebels from the Star Wars, and suddenly one of them would start refer to Darth Vader as "Anakin". That'd be weird, eh?

But back to the topic. That said, even if you contradicted this and said the Great River was at least as large a flow that actually the power of Ulmo could not have disappeared completely from there, I would disagree about the underground lake. I don't think this lake was in any way directly connected to Anduin: after all, it was an underground lake. And for some reason, I think that Ulmo's power did not reach much deep into these waters which were not connected directly, i.e. through flowing, not ground water to the Seas etc. Nasty slimy things, lost pools in the heart of mountains: depending on the circumstances, I think some of those may have been nice and clear places with the "primal" unspoiled water, but as the Ages went by, they became "contaminated". In any case, Ulmo's access to the underground lake would have been far more problematic than let's say to the Bay of Belfalas, from the merely "materialistic" point of view.

[Andsigil]

This topic is far more interesting than yet another "Who would win in a fight between...?" thread.

I've always considered Ulmo to be the most active of the Valar in the affairs of ME, especially since he's the one who governs the fates of ships sailing west with the elves. Not to mention his role in the sinking of Numenor.

That being said, I now wonder about his role as water diety and the Sea of Nurnen.

Thanks to Feliandreka for reviving this topic.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

This topic is far more interesting than yet another "Who would win in a fight between...?" thread.

Indeed

That being said, I now wonder about his role as water diety and the Sea of Nurnen.

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

I have often wondered if the Sea of Núrnen wasn't Tolkien's nod to the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea at least has the River Jordan feeding into it, but if I'm not mistaken, it is believed that the Biblical cities of Sodom and Gammorah were located near its shores (possibly to explain its incredibly high salinity, which does not support much in the way of anything but some microbial life). There's just something there that feels similar, at least to me. I could see Sauron cutting off all tributaries to Mordor's inland sea to prevent Ulmo from having any way of "spying" on him, or "whispering" to his slaves and vassals.

It also makes me wonder about the Nazgul and their aversion to water. While it smacks of the old tale about witches and vampires and their inability to cross flowing water, it differs in that the Nazgul can cross them; they just don't like to. I have wondered if this is because of their aversion to something as inherently clean and pure as free-flowing water, or if it still contains traces of Ulmo's presence, which they might well have reason to fear. I grant you, Tolkien admitted that the whole idea of evil creatures being repelled by water was difficult to sustain (the Anduin would provide a pretty secure barrier to them, if that were the case), but if one considers untainted water as a connection to Ulmo, it might work. Though I suspect Tolkien either didn't care for that notion or it didn't occur to him, since he didn't use it.

And about the eagles: at least during the time of The Hobbit and LotR, every instance I can recall that involves the eagles also somehow involves Gandalf. Even the remaining Fellowship seeing an eagle flying high up during their journey down the Anduin happened because Gandalf asked Gwaihir to scout ahead for him. Though I don't believe he actively summons the eagles -- if that were the case, why would he have spent so long a time stranded atop Orthanc? -- I tend to think that sometimes he does (as before the Black Gates) and the rest of the time, "fortune," probably in the form a nudge from Manwe, sends them where his servant needs them. I might be forgetting some appearance of the Third Age eagles in which Gandalf is nowhere on or behind the scenes, but I can't recall such an instance, if there is one.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It also makes me wonder about the Nazgul and their aversion to water. While it smacks of the old tale about witches and vampires and their inability to cross flowing water, it differs in that the Nazgul can cross them; they just don't like to. I have wondered if this is because of their aversion to something as inherently clean and pure as free-flowing water, or if it still contains traces of Ulmo's presence, which they might well have reason to fear.

I think the last answer is the right one: Nazgul felt the lingering traces of Ulmo's power in flowing water and feared it.

Note that the Witch-King didn't fear water:

All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge- UT, the Hunt for the Ring

Now, why didn't the WK fear water?

He was undoubtedly a powerful sorceror, a witch, so, if the reason were simply that "witches can't cross water" as in old tales, then he would be more affected than the others, not less so.

It is unlikely that the WK wouldn't feel as much "aversion to something so inherently clean and pure" as his fellows did.

So - we are left with Ulmo's powers. The WK was clearly the most powerful of the Nine, and the power of Ulmo was almost gone from the waters of ME. The Witch-King was simply powerful enough to disregard what was left of old Ulmo to enjoy swimming

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think the last answer is the right one: Nazgul felt the lingering traces of Ulmo's power in flowing water and feared it.

Note that the Witch-King didn't fear water: Now, why didn't the WK fear water?

He was undoubtedly a powerful sorceror, a witch, so, if the reason were simply that "witches can't cross water" as in old tales, then he would be more affected than the others, not less so.

It is unlikely that the WK wouldn't feel as much "aversion to something so inherently clean and pure" as his fellows did.

So - we are left with Ulmo's powers. The WK was clearly the most powerful of the Nine, and the power of Ulmo was almost gone from the waters of ME. The Witch-King was simply powerful enough to disregard what was left of old Ulmo to enjoy swimming

I think this was not necessarily about that his power would be powerful enough to overcome the "traces of Ulmo". I think this was merely a kind of psychological effect, so to say. You say it yourself: He was not afraid of water. Whether the water did have any effect on him is a completely different question (and in the end, it indeed had... ). He may still have felt a little dizzy or uncomfortable in the water, like somebody who has an allergy or something, but he was not afraid - for what reason in particular, we don't know. He may have been simply more rational person than the others ("Other people and even Orcs usually go into the water and nothing happens. The chance is 1:500000 that something happens. I'm going to be a little dizzy, but as soon as this is over, I will lie down for a few hours and then I'll be fit again. It has been proven that the effects of hydronausea pass in 3-5 days completely, and that it is not hazardous even after long exposure."), or he may simply have had more self-confidence ("The water's not gonna stop me in my unholy quest! Forwaaards!").

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think this was not necessarily about that [the Witch-King's] power would be powerful enough to overcome the "traces of Ulmo". I think this was merely a kind of psychological effect, so to say. You say it yourself: He was not afraid of water. Whether the water did have any effect on him is a completely different question (and in the end, it indeed had... ). He may still have felt a little dizzy or uncomfortable in the water, like somebody who has an allergy or something, but he was not afraid - for what reason in particular, we don't know. He may have been simply more rational person than the others ("Other people and even Orcs usually go into the water and nothing happens. The chance is 1:500000 that something happens. I'm going to be a little dizzy, but as soon as this is over, I will lie down for a few hours and then I'll be fit again. It has been proven that the effects of hydronausea pass in 3-5 days completely, and that it is not hazardous even after long exposure."), or he may simply have had more self-confidence ("The water's not gonna stop me in my unholy quest! Forwaaards!").

Hmm... But doesn't this reasoning imply that he did fear water, but was able to overcome his fear either by rational reasoning or by cheer courage? But the other nazgul were able to overcome their fear as well - maybe not so readily, but still they could do it. Two of the nazgul followed the WK over the Ford - and we know from RC that one of them was Khamul, who was rather prone to typical nazgul phobias.
So, to me the quote from UT: "All save the WK feared water", seems to set him more apart. I think maybe he didn't feel any aversion to it at all.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Considering that his main weapon is fear, you might have something there...

Well, but fear was the main weapon of all the Nine. I would say that the WK had more other weapons than his fellows.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

I agree, and while I can't guess the motives of a fictional deity, I would think that Sauron's desecration of the Sea of Nurnen (not exactly an insignificant body of water) would earn him Ulmo's absolute hatred. Hence, his more active role in opposing Sauron.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I have to disagree with the comment above:

Interesting thoughts young Sharku, but Ulmo is really the King of the Seas. The Lord of Waters is a misleading term. Yes, I am known as the Lord of Waters, but salt water only! Ulmo has no influence on such matters as Ent draughts, and waterfalls, or water lillies.

Since in the Silmarillion:

For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his
government; so that the elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all
the veins of the world.

And the continued influence of Ulmo in Middle-earth waters seem
to me the reason that Sauron and his forces feared water (even the
nazgul). Which leads to the perplexing situation where JRRT said
somwhere (in Letters?) he didn't have a good reason why the bad guys
didn't like water. Ulmo's lingering presence is certainly a believable
cause, as it would be an enabling factor in Elrond controlling surrounding
rivers to protect Rivendell.

[Morthoron]

The intriguing thing about Valaric intervention, for me anyway, is the subtle implication that Manwë acted in the War of the Ring. Although it is never stated, I do find it interesting that the coming of the Eagles (and the Eagles of the North were the folk of Thorondor, who was the messenger of Manwë) happened to arrive at the critical moment of the battle before the Black Gates. Did they just decide to attack on their own accord? It doesn't seem plausible, given that their eyries were so far north (unlike in The Hobbit, where they could see Orkish troop movements from their mountain strongholds). After all, Olórin was chosen for the Istari at the behest of Manwë, and it would explain Gandalf's extraordinary relationship with the Eagles better than the mention that he saved Gwaihir from an arrow wound in The Hobbit.

Also, there is the passage in 'The Field of Cormallen' which speaks of Sauron's final fall:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

...black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent; for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

Yes, a 'great wind' (out of nowhere seemingly) took the shadow of Sauron away. Manwë, as we all know is Súlimo, Lord of the winds. Of course, their is also Ghân-buri-Ghân's mention of the wind changing as well. And then there is the death of Saruman:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

...about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shoruded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

So, Saruman's spirit looks in supplication to the West, but a cold wind, as if in final judgment, blows the lingering shadow away. It seems to me, at least by inferrence, that Manwë had more direct interaction at that time than Ulmo.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And the continued influence of Ulmo in Middle-earth waters seem
to me the reason that Sauron and his forces feared water (even the
nazgul). Which leads to the perplexing situation where JRRT said
somwhere (in Letters?) he didn't have a good reason why the bad guys
didn't like water. Ulmo's lingering presence is certainly a believable
cause, as it would be an enabling factor in Elrond controlling surrounding
rivers to protect Rivendell.

Well, I originally thought the same too, but obviously, Tolkien for some reason did not state this as being THE reason. Another aspect is the quality of water by itself: like I mentioned also in my post above, the water is something special, the substance preserving the "echoes of the Song" the best. Water is the only thing that was not corrupted, nor could it have been destroyed (instead, just snow and vapors were formed). And as for the rivers protecting Rivendell, I think more than anything else this was the work of the Elven Ring, and I think that is made clear very plainly in LotR. Because after all, the Nazgul overcame their "hydrophobia" (which was general) and entered the river, but the flood was directed by Elrond.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It seems to me, at least by inferrence, that Manwë had more direct interaction at that time than Ulmo.

Indeed, but hasn't it that been always? Even in the First Age? I mean, the "final blow" had always been delivered by Manwë, or on Manwë's account as the leader of Valar. Ulmo operated possibly secretly, and gave guidance to Tuors and such, but he did not interfere directly, creating a flood to suddenly get rid of a horde of Orcs or such. That was simply not his way.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, but hasn't it that been always? Even in the First Age? I mean, the "final blow" had always been delivered by Manwë, or on Manwë's account as the leader of Valar. Ulmo operated possibly secretly, and gave guidance to Tuors and such, but he did not interfere directly, creating a flood to suddenly get rid of a horde of Orcs or such. That was simply not his way.

Yes, he just sets things up. He puts all the pieces into place, and watches to see what will happen. A "puppet master" of Middle-Earth- In a good way, of course. And let's not forget that he decides who will be saved at sea (And if I remember correctly he is the one who allowed Earendil passage across the Sea).