Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

So, phooey on the actual vote, they're overrated.

Perhaps, but not useless. Not to me, anyhow.

Originally Posted by Legate

Yes, especially the second paragraph boldened and twice underlined!! Because, among other things, otherwise, all this complicated Rep-system would be worth nothing. End to demagogues and hypocritical "Men of the People"! When you are voted for a Representative, show your worth! When we already have this Republic here, so let it be worth it! And those who fail your trust, into the waste with them - you can vote somebody else! This is the point of this whole system, or so I gathered - so let it be used to its fullest, so that we have something from it!

*chuckles*

Wait just a minute here. First you are on about how reps should consider everyone else's wishes and not be to self-willed, and then you go and agree with Nogrod about how Reps should stand up and not be wishy-washy?

Just what are you up to, Legate?

(still reading.... on to page 3...)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.

Giving power to the few is only dangerous if they are on the wrong side.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yeah - after all, this is supposed to be a democracy, not theocracy.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Boro, you could say history doesn't matter, but look at how much Phantom has already said! History tends to repeat itself, after all.

In that case, I must be the Good Wizard, as that was my highest posting game.

Sweet. I can make a new Ranger tonight!

Originally Posted by Boro

and if the phantom's a wolf, well we're all screwed now anyway.

Precisely! It doesn't do any good to suspect me. You can know from reading your Werewolf history that whatever side I'm on benefits greatly from my help. And the vast majority of the time I am good, and thus the odds say that you should keep me around. Simple as that, really.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Wait just a minute here. First you are on about how reps should consider everyone else's wishes and not be to self-willed, and then you go and agree with Nogrod about how Reps should stand up and not be wishy-washy?

Well, I hope you gathered from what I have replied now in the post right above, that I never was for this populism. I never said anything about considering others' wishes! I spoke about the best intentions of the village - but that does not mean listening to a few villagers who whine "uncle Rep, vote that awful guy with the pink hair"! The Rep, once elected, should vote with the best intentions for the village in mind! Once again - and if you read all my posts, you will find it there from the beginning to the end - I say: I believe in reasonable players, who will do what is best, who know what is best, which is the point of this very game - and I am also doing that to see how different outcome such a voting (meaning now the lynch-voting later, which those Reps will make) will be from the usual WW-y voting of the "mindless masses". Clear?

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[the phantom]

Well, I hope you gathered from what I have replied now in the post right above, that I never was for this populism. I never said anything about considering others' wishes! I spoke about the best intentions of the village

Well, if that is your justification, then I can only say that I am insulted that you would think that an innocent phantom would not have the best intentions of the village in mind. I have done some crazy things as an Ordo (suggested volunteers for lynching, lying about my role, etc) but these things were always done to help the village, even if they couldn't see what I was trying to do until after the fact. And usually I produced very favorable results for the village, which I think speaks for my intentions quite well.

[the phantom]

Wish Lalaith was here. She'd be able to testify to the fact that a manipulative-lying-through-his-teeth Phantom can be quite deadly to opposing Werewolves.

Question my means if you'd like, Legate, but never my intentions or motives.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Fea

assuming I did handpick roles (and one should never assume), I highly doubt people (even you, phantom) would be able to trace my motives down to an accurate shortlist, since my motives are rarely traceable.

Oh whatever. Your motives are quite clear. You picked four WWs who hate me, didn't you?

This whole village is a set up! Gah! What did I do to you to deserve this, Fea?

But no, there actually aren't any Werewolves, are there? We'll discover at the end that the moral was that the government causes rifts and starts fights, and that the people should rise up above it and excercise their power to stop the madness.

Actually, that's quite an idea.

Werewolves, I have an idea! We can make peace! If you will agree not to kill us during the night, we will agree not to try and lynch you during the day. Why continue this conflict? Let us strike a truce!

[Boromir88]

May I have a counter-question, Boro, though (if it is clear, if not, ask more) - what was your reason to ask me this? If you only could formulate why are you asking me about that, "why did I name tp in particular". Thank ye.~Legate

Certainly Senator who hails from a place called Amon Lanc, an no need to rephrase.

It was by no means for the phantom's sake. The phantom is a big boy, he can look after himself. Call it a couple curious queries that sprang to mind, call it a test, call it whatever you want. You said earlier you were going to hold off on your suspects until later, you want to take this extra time for observation, that may be well and good for you, each to his own. For me, I want to send a clear message that I stand for efficiency, and that means I'm raring for the fight. The moment I step into those chambers, I mean business.

It was a little test, I thought some of the things you stated earlier were a bit suspect, and decided to investigate further. For example, I found it curious to why you pinpointed the phantom. I mean logically it makes sense, and also I know how hard it is to go one paragraph, let alone one post, without mentioning him in some way. But people gripe about how he has to have all the attention, yet you (and others) continually, and specifically, pinpoint him out. I of course hope you have been honest, or as honest as a politician can possibly be.

I am fully aware of the flaws of first impressions, if applied randomly and based solely on stereotypes, first impressions can be horribly wrong. But it is proven that first impressions with sound, solid, logical reasoning backing them, can be frighteningly accurate. Let me say I've realized my primary flaw in being stubborn and pig-headed. But, with twice as much time now, there is more time for me to slow down, reflect, and process. Rest assured Legate, you will not be the only one I will pick on, you just happened to be the first. Let me repeat that...first.

Edit: Crossed with Agan and the phantom (as far as the 4th page goes)

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Fea

Any future direct quotation of Immanuel Kant shall result in modfire. *shudders*

I love you. (Just couldn't resist, you know, when given such a perfect occasion...)

Then, to the list I promised. Here it comes.
Aganzir - No idea.
Boromir88 - Don't know. He seems calm and reasonable and wise without actually revealing next to anything about himself. A sneaky man, obviously. Could be anything.
Brinniel - Cute and cuddly and sensible, as always.
Diamond18 - I'm slightly worried about the over-confident tone of her post, mainly because I'm not sure what it indicates to. I'm interested to see more of her posting.
Eönwë - Under my reindeer already, and fast asleep, too. Not good.
Gil-Galad - Haven't seen him.
Gwathagor - Securely under the reindeer as well.
Ilya - Seems sensible and gives innocentish vibes this far.
Legate - He puzzles me a bit with those political speeches and such, but doesn't ring-a-ling any alarm bells as yet.
Lommy - No idea. Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
Kath - Under the reindeer with the two charming guys...
McCaber - ...sorry, three.
mormegil - Seems reasonable enough.
Nerwen - From the little I saw of her, she seems quite innocentish.
Nogrod - Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
Rune - Haven't seen him.
Sally - Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
Shasta - Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
The Ka - Leaning innocent this far.
the phantom - As before when I've played with him, I'm irritated by the way the discussion seems to revolve around him. I have a bad feeling about him (and no, not because he is the centre of attention).

(Hey, I just realised that the names are in alphabetical order! Yay! )

I'll vote for a rep soon, and have no idea as yet. Also, I don't like how "Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent" became my favourite phrase in the list... I suppose I'm just a hopeless case.


EDIT: x-ed since phantom's post where he regrets Lalaith isn't here.

[Boromir88]

Rune - Haven't seen him.~Greenie

I feel bad for him, if and when he arrives.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Legate

c) if you followed my thoughts, the reason for doing the experiment relies on the fact that I am NOT going to vote my representative, for most part, on who is he going to vote for. I am well aware of the riskiness, but heck, for me it's still worth it. I will vote a representative whom I believe as being capable of making a good decision on behalf of the village, that's the prime qualificiation.

Yes, I agree to some point - but it's easier to judge people's roles and alignments if they talk also about other things than game dynamics. It's not that I choose a rep solely because of who s/he suspects; it's more about the fact that people who voice their suspicions are easier to form an opinion on, or rather, people who discuss nothing but filibusters are pretty hard to read. I don't know how to better explain it, but I hope you got my point.

I like Agan's idea of voting Brinn for rep. She seems a sensible choice. Other possibilities for me might be Lommy or THE Ka. Argh. I don't know.

[A Little Green]

Lommie wants the computer (which is fair enough), so I have to go. I'll vote

++Brinn for rep

because she is a good sensible player, seems innocent, and has already received one vote so is certainly through. Good night, sweethearts.


EDIT: x-ed with Noggins-Woggins

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Question my means if you'd like, Legate, but never my intentions or motives.

HaHa!


Just a quick one to begin with... I think we have some conceptual problems involved. At least we had and should do well not to fall on them yet again.

Lommy I think first used the expression "weak reps" and "strong reps" and it looks like she meant ones with only little voting power or with a huge mandate (eg. the question on how many votes any certain rep has over the lynching) and then someone else (Legate, tp, boro...?) started to talk about the "strong reps" as someone who is trusted or influential or keeps her/his own mind or makes independent decisions etc. Or at least to me it looked like that.

These two things should be kept apart. The number of votes a rep has in the lynch-vote is a different thing from the different evaluations concerning the independent-mindedness or "rationality" or "having the good of the village in mind" -speculations of each and every one of us. The first is factual reality while the latter is feelings on everyone's minds and could be different with every single player around.


On a second note... I would be honoured to be a representative but I have to inform you that tomorrow (RL) I go to work early and come back home pretty late in the evening (and I have an early morning call the next day as well). So I may not have too many hours to play in my hands tomorrow).

On a third thought: that kind of information might be useful in general. Sure if I wawered between voting for X or Y as my representative the knowledge that X could be online a lot and Y would have to skip the Day would influence my decision between more or less even candidates...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Yes, I agree to some point - but it's easier to judge people's roles and alignments if they talk also about other things than game dynamics. It's not that I choose a rep solely because of who s/he suspects; it's more about the fact that people who voice their suspicions are easier to form an opinion on, or rather, people who discuss nothing but filibusters are pretty hard to read. I don't know how to better explain it, but I hope you got my point.

Yes, I hope I got it too But I think I did, of course.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Lommy I think first used the expression "weak reps" and "strong reps" and it looks like she meant ones with only little voting power or with a huge mandate (eg. the question on how many votes any certain rep has over the lynching) and then someone else (Legate, tp, boro...?) started to talk about the "strong reps" as someone who is trusted or influential or keeps her/his own mind or makes independent decisions etc. Or at least to me it looked like that.

These two things should be kept apart. The number of votes a rep has in the lynch-vote is a different thing from the different evaluations concerning the independent-mindedness or "rationality" or "having the good of the village in mind" -speculations of each and every one of us. The first is factual reality while the latter is feelings on everyone's minds and could be different with every single player around.

One note, I believe if I used it in my first post, then it was me who used it first (that just to make things clear ). But I used the term in the general sense. And tp, at least what I recall, used the term "weak" as the opposite for it, for these Reps uncapable of judgement.
But, really, good sir, are you not overdoing it a bit, we are not little children. Had you not mentioned it, it would have never occured to me these two terms can be mixed

On a third thought: that kind of information might be useful in general. Sure if I wawered between voting for X or Y as my representative the knowledge that X could be online a lot and Y would have to skip the Day would influence my decision between more or less even candidates...

That's a good point. As far as that goes, I should be around in a reasonable measure toMorrow - in the "Morning" (game-wise, but also European time-wise) and then again only in the "Evening" (like for some time from about one hour later than now), though not for the DL itself, of course! What am I, a person with dyssomnia?

EDIT: x-ed with sir Nogrod

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

That's all very well - except that if we all hold back our suspicions all Day and only voice them a bit before deadline, that will not only make it really difficult to choose a representative for the people around at deadline, forcing them to hasty decisions since they get all the information only just before they have to decide, but also makes deciding close to impossible for those who are not able to be around late in the Day. Of course it's not that bad if only one Leggie does that, but if we all operated that way, it would end up quite nasty. [NAME EDITED AWAY ON BEHALF OF THE MOD'S WELL-BEING] said: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." That obviously makes you a sinner, which means you are a wolf. Easy, eh? (How come I have become so good at spotting wolves?)

I am aware of your point, but a) I know that not everybody will do that, and b) as I said it is an experiment I want to try when there is the chance, but mainly, and most of all, c) if you followed my thoughts, the reason for doing the experiment relies on the fact that I am NOT going to vote my representative, for most part, on who is he going to vote for. I am well aware of the riskiness, but heck, for me it's still worth it. I will vote a representative whom I believe as being capable of making a good decision on behalf of the village, that's the prime qualificiation.

Though point well taken. If we don't post any suspicions or such, we may not judge whether the Rep, who is otherwise a reliable person and whom we'd like to see as a leader, is not actually showing signs of Wolfishness. I am going to post some list on what I think about people, then, soon.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Well, if that is your justification, then I can only say that I am insulted that you would think that an innocent phantom would not have the best intentions of the village in mind. I have done some crazy things as an Ordo (suggested volunteers for lynching, lying about my role, etc) but these things were always done to help the village, even if they couldn't see what I was trying to do until after the fact. And usually I produced very favorable results for the village, which I think speaks for my intentions quite well.

Well, yes, sorry then for insulting you poor innocent phantom And apologies in forward to others about whom I am perhaps going to speak in similar terms in future. But you know, this is all just these high politics - one does not avoid saying things which may sound too gruff at times

[the phantom]

All right, I'm going to go get lunch, but I'll be around for all the time after that. I'll make an updated list of villagers when I return.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, first, a list of people for some orientation.

Aganzir - Well. She appeared only for a while, so there's little to say. If I were to speak about gut feeling, I would say okay. But in general, too little to go with.
Boromir88 - The fact that he questioned my phantom comment very short after I posted it could speak for it being a genuine, and therefore innocentish intention. - And, now as I see his reply to me, I am... well. I am considering him... speaking sense, at least, and seeming honest, that's the word. Whether there is something behind this "mask of fairness", or how to call it, is another thing. But this far - no special feelings.
Brinniel - hmm, appears around, but I cannot seem to be able to make a constant picture of her. Perhaps later.
Diamond18 - except for her non-filibustier vote and some messing around, not really much to go with; no reasons to suspect her, though
Eönwë - too little to go with
Gil-Galad - the same (with substituing "too little" for "nothing")
Greenie - I actually think she seems genuine, if not outright innocent. More innocent-ish than not, at least - genuine-seeming questions or points and Ordo could raise, I'd say. So, rather good profile for me this far.
Gwathagor - the same as those two above Greenie
Ilya - the same as many above
Legate - that's me
Lommy - that's her
No, wait a moment. Yes, Lommy... after reading her posts, she actually seems genuine. Thus, innocentish-like.
Kath - probably the same as many above.
McCaber - from what he posted, for now, he makes a rather innocent-y impression on me
mormegil - I feel a bit unnerved, but that's his behavior which I am not used to (I mean in general), and in fact, there's nothing in particular that I would find awkward about him: he seems to follow some normal reasoning.
Nerwen - one post this far, if I am correct? And no substance at all. So, what to say. Nothing. (Though I would have expected her to say at least something.)
Nogrod - reasonable, actually very reasonable, reasonable to the point that it's almost unsettling, but, well, he simply seems reasonable, what to say more.
Rune - is he?
Sally - she's not been posting much, which surprises me a bit, but maybe that's the timezone
Shasta - he is actually quite posting around, which surprises me a bit. I am looking at him, but rather with some sort of expectation and wonder what is going to come out of it, rather than that I'd be outright suspecting him. I have missed many games with him lately, so maybe his style got changed a bit.
The Ka - Her only few posts actually leave me more, like, confused, or, simply hard to analyze anything out of them. I really need (and this case I really mean need) to see more from her to be actually able to even think about her.
the phantom - well, what to say: he is the phantom, but actually, I had the feeling that he does not seem like a Wolf (this has nothing to do though with my ideas about voting him as Rep, to be clear).

Well. I see I'm certainly x-ing with some people, so some comments on that coming rightaway, too...

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Fea

You can not.

Good. I was worried I'd have to sidetrack Gwath myself.

I'm not going to make a list of how I feel about people yet. I find that this early on everyone's mostly "innocent-ish" and/or "too quiet to tell." Perhaps during the second half of the Day.

For some reason I also really like phantom's suggestion of non-violence. If any village can pull that sort of thing off, it's this one. Representative republican anarchy.

[A Little Green]

Here at last. Hello. Sorry for taking so long, it's been a busy day. (And seemingly a busy Day as well.) So, first off, some thoughts on toDay's posts.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Must you use that word? I recall the words of a famous politician-

"Consensus is the absence of leadership".

Might be - but do we want leadership? I would much prefer consensus to leadership, not only because leadership can be so easily misused, but also because leadership makes a WW game really boring. After all, what's the fun in a game where you have a leader who does all the thinking for you?

Originally Posted by Noggins

I'd say we should not shy away from actually trying to suspect people on this first Day as well even if there are a host of interesting new things to speculate upon.

My thoughts exactly - I was going to mention this thing in this post but seemingly Mr. Nog did it before me. Though speculating about reps and filibusters is important and all, I'm a bit worried about how little people talk about each other. For myself, I'm going to sleep in a few hours, probably, and would really much like to see something else than rules discussion before I vote for a rep. I'll show example and talk about people after this post.

Originally Posted by Leggie

Yes, although at least for myself, I have decided to use this "two-day" (in fact) system and try to keep my opinons on people for myself for a bit longer than usual, i.e. voicing them only very late in the Day, because I want to make a clearer picture on everybody, not given just by first impressions (and as soon as I say "X looks suspicious" or simply evaluate somebody, it will create a reaction, which I don't want yet. I want to see everybody for a while in their "natural environment" as a mere observer. Call it an experiment for toDay).

That's all very well - except that if we all hold back our suspicions all Day and only voice them a bit before deadline, that will not only make it really difficult to choose a representative for the people around at deadline, forcing them to hasty decisions since they get all the information only just before they have to decide, but also makes deciding close to impossible for those who are not able to be around late in the Day. Of course it's not that bad if only one Leggie does that, but if we all operated that way, it would end up quite nasty. Immanuel Kant said: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." That obviously makes you a sinner, which means you are a wolf. Easy, eh? (How come I have become so good at spotting wolves?)

I'll be back with more stuff. Beware.


EDIT: x-ed since, gasp, phantom's #101 - 13 posts before mine! Slow down, people. Really.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Any future direct quotation of Immanuel Kant shall result in modfire. *shudders*