Bio-warfare In Middle-earth

[Bêthberry]

Another thing to consider: plagues are not specifically designed weapons. They target everyone. And that would possibly include the Ring Bearer. It it had been buried with the Bearer, the Ring could have been lost in a grave with a little quick lime or, if he fell far away from civilization, in some unknown clime, blanketed by leaves and earth and perhaps prey to carrion-seeking carnivores. Like the River, the earth would give the Ring a quiet bearth where none would find it. Until upheaval, of course. And that possibility may be a little too long term even for someone with eons of time at his disposal.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Another thing to consider: plagues are not specifically designed weapons.

But they could be...

It it had been buried with the Bearer, the Ring could have been lost in a grave with a little quick lime or, if he fell far away from civilization, in some unknown clime, blanketed by leaves and earth and perhaps prey to carrion-seeking carnivores. Like the River, the earth would give the Ring a quiet bearth where none would find it. Until upheaval, of course. And that possibility may be a little too long term even for someone with eons of time at his disposal.

Nice exegesis (for lack of a better word as my 'common tongue' thesaurus in my head in on the fritz). I think Sauron was getting tired of waiting - he'd spent more than a few years waiting up at his summer home - and so was looking for a more decisive end. As stated, he already had a plan for Rohan, and Minas Tirith was being neutralized, and so there wasn't that much more to do...

..except to pick out his victory wardrobe.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Another point, a ruler (dictator or no) needs subjects to govern
and to improve his realms. Kill too many and who's he got to
boss around? And given Sauron's ego, how could he not smugly
have already assumed he'd win Middle-earth?

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Agree that Sauron had no particular need for a plague during the War of the Ring. Although maybe he could have engineered it to infect humans, not orcs, he probably outnumbered the West in human troops alone. Therefore it could have been counter-productive to unleash such a thing, as chem/bio-warfare tends to be unpredictable to say the least.

As has been mentioned, his 17th century plague might have been a smart move - he had no great strength of numbers, the West would lose heavily, and presumably orcs would re-populate faster.

One possible biological warfare technique was the catapulting of the severed heads into Minas Tirith, that could have spread disease, contaminated water etc, though it was likely more of a morale-degrading measure. Another was the 'poisoning' of orc blades, could be a chemical poison, or contamination with, er... infectious or toxic biological materials of various unpleasant natures!

I've had a theory that the 'broils and smokes from the East' that periodically affected Gondor might have contained endocrine-disruptive chemicals that might reduce fertility, as we know Minas Tirith only had half the population that it could hold. If so, was Sauron's biological warfare rather more subtle than it seems? Its really unusual for a medieval-style city to lose population unless there's a high mortality from disease (common enough in history but MT seems a fairly healthy place), lack of food, or very high losses in warfare/political disorder.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Agree that Sauron had no particular need for a plague during the War of the Ring. Although maybe he could have engineered it to infect humans, not orcs, he probably outnumbered the West in human troops alone. Therefore it could have been counter-productive to unleash such a thing, as chem/bio-warfare tends to be unpredictable to say the least.

Exactly. And, unlike in Peter Jackson's Middle Earth, Sauron et al weren't trying to rid the place of humans.

As has been mentioned, his 17th century plague might have been a smart move - he had no great strength of numbers, the West would lose heavily, and presumably orcs would re-populate faster.

Was Manwe asleep at the switch? A wind from the West could have changed the effect of this plague.

One possible biological warfare technique was the catapulting of the severed heads into Minas Tirith, that could have spread disease, contaminated water etc, though it was likely more of a morale-degrading measure. Another was the 'poisoning' of orc blades, could be a chemical poison, or contamination with, er... infectious or toxic biological materials of various unpleasant natures!

Yep. Like lembas and elven rope to the other side.

I've had a theory that the 'broils and smokes from the East' that periodically affected Gondor might have contained endocrine-disruptive chemicals that might reduce fertility, as we know Minas Tirith only had half the population that it could hold. If so, was Sauron's biological warfare rather more subtle than it seems? Its really unusual for a medieval-style city to lose population unless there's a high mortality from disease (common enough in history but MT seems a fairly healthy place), lack of food, or very high losses in warfare/political disorder.

Excellent observation! How better to easily get what you want than by letting - helping! - the current inhabitants simply die off?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

As has been mentioned, his 17th century plague might have been a smart move - he had no great strength of numbers, the West would lose heavily, and presumably orcs would re-populate faster.

*If* the Orcs had their origins as ruined Avari, would they not be immune to any plague or sickness , as the Firstborn were?

[The Might]

I think what also is important here is the fact that he simply did not need a plague during the WotR.

This is an easy explanation for many things that Sauron could have well used and did not - he was so confident and arrogant that he needed not bother come up with complicated plans, he knew that eventually he would defeat the West. Of course that turned out to be a mistake in the end...

[alatar]

I also think that Sauron wanted a 'clean' victory. I see him not as a rogue, bent on burning the whole place down, but as an evil but brilliant tactician and strategist. Instead of sending over yet another plague (the first already did its work well enough), he went for more conventional means to subdue his conquests. Sauron also used psychic biowarfare in the cowl of the Nine.

This more clean warfare would leave more whole survivors, which, methinks, he may have had other plans for.

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

*If* the Orcs had their origins as ruined Avari, would they not be immune to any plague or sickness , as the Firstborn were?

It depends on how fallen, exactly, the orcs ended up being. I can see the First Age orcs being incredibly better than the Third Agers, simply because the elven side of them was a lot stronger then. And over time, the elven blood most likely was weakened and diluted, so I can see the orcs being just as vulnerable to disease as humans. Not the same diseases, given the orcs' choice of habitations, but still illnesses.

[Elmo]

I reckon Morgoth didn't send out constant plagues because he had already spent too much of his power on orcses and dragons. He would have if he could as he was a nihilist who wanted everything and everyone dead.

Sauron might have had a similar lack of power but also he was content with creatures living as long as they were his slaves to do his bidding.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

But they could be...

Originally Posted by Rumil

we know Minas Tirith only had half the population that it could hold.

I see a thread in the future. It is called, "A Plague of Plasmids: viral reproduction in Middle earth, or, Orcs and Oxytocin: Do they mix?"