A Measure of Success

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

Thanks Durelin for responding to me. A page or so of discussion since you did. I guess it takes the right person saying something here to get a discussion about RP going. Reading through it all and though there are plenty of good opinions, I somehow don’t see too much changing. Maybe if things get freed up a bit control-wise I may consider Barrow Downs as host of one of my RPs I’ve outlined.

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Quite an active thread we have here...

I'm not going to weigh in just yet. I have some ideas and suggestions, but I'd first like to focus and sharpen this discussion. I hear a lot of different and not necessarily uniform opinions about what's wrong (and not a lot of agreement about what's right). Last time a discussion like this was held here it was done by invitation only in a private forum. This time, I'd rather be very open about things. Ironically, some of the comments I hear now are the same as I heard back then: elitist; too structured; etc. And like last time the favorable comments are often about the same things some people complain about.

I happen to agree with Snowdog (NOOO, not that!). Must be an age thing. Too much talk about what's good and what's bad, which is not to say that this dialogue hasn't been valuable. But it's time for you all to do my job for me. No egos, no fighting, but tell me what you would like to see done!

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

In the words of Eowyn, I do not wish to play at riddles. Speak plainer!

As far as what we would like to see done? Well, define "see done." If the answer is "do," I think Fea at least is taking the initiative and getting a game idea up. I myself just sent a game idea off to pio that, hopefully, will take some of the ideas that have been discussed here and try to put them into action. If, however, by "see done" you mean things for the moderators, etc., to do--I don't know how much of this is a moderator solution, since the problems don't stem as much from the rules as they do from the game owners and the players. At least in my estimation.

So the best way to clean up the RPGs is to clean up ourselves first. That, at least, is the tack that I am taking. I am using this discussion to reconceptualize my idea of how RPGs should work, and trying to come up with something that will take those new ideas and test them in the field.

But if there's a problem that no one else is seeing, I'd very much like it if you just let us know what it is.

[Snowdog]

Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

I don’t mind at all. I would love to do this, but being its mid-afternoon here and I’m sneaking on here at work, I’ll have to gather my thoughts on it later this evening after I get home and settled in with a beer in hand.

I just became aware a couple hours ago that this discussion had finally taken off.

[Mithalwen]

Dunno - that everyone is talking about it not doing it? He may tell us if he I suppose .. what is really fascinating me at the moment though is how or rather why Crowned Pigeon whe has never actually posted has spent most of the past two days private messaging. I may have more insightful when it isn't stupid o'clock.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

Ooh, I know, I know! If the Barrowdowns as an institution actively encourages members to borrow aspects of Middle Earth for their own Tolkien inspired writing projects, it will inspire a lawsuit from the Estate! Am I right?

No, really. I rather doubt any of us are intentionally ignoring something that has occurred to us, since we all appear to be actively trying to pin down a prognosis and a prescription. Playing coy, Sir Mithadan, isn't really helping any of us, nor does it help dismantle the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble.

The only thing I can think is that you lean toward saying, "If people want to play RPGs the way other websites play them, they can go to other websites." Which is akin to saying we should allow the slow demise of our own writerly frolics within the realms of this place.

[Mithalwen]

No can't be that -
http://www.tolkienestate.com/faq/p_2/

I must admit I have mixed feelings about rule making - the WW thing seemed an overreaction to an isolated problem (letting a virtual unknown quantity mod) and I can't help feeling that some people enjoy too much making rules for others. We got a whole statute book when a Denning like judgement might have sufficed. However I stand by the uncanonical or even implausible names as capitaloffences

[Mithadan]

the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble

I've gotta be honest, I'm surprised that this is still coming up. There's really only one game running (barely) in Gondor. Otherwise its been pretty much abandoned for about 4 years. Gondor was NEVER intended to be elitist. It was supposed to be an award or honor for skill and effort. The goal was that the majority of gamers would end up in Gondor and those who weren't yet would be newcomers.

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

Kind of. But not for the reasons one might think.

I find the idea of a reward for good writing/modding/playing to be laudable, but I also think that due to the slow progress of RPGs and players, it's a more or less unobtainable goal. As you said, there's only one game (kind of), and as most others have mentioned, they usually don't even go into Gondor to READ, much less hope some day to write.

I also think having the seemingly unobtainable 'best' status deters interest from the inherent quality of 'lower' games.

Can you truly claim surprise that people "still" feel left out in a system that classifies by 'new and can't be trusted to know their eyes from their elbows,' and 'still need hand holding and permission,' to 'nobody ever goes here'? In any system wherein there is a concentration of power there are going to subsequent feelings that those without it are either lazy or inherently less deserving.

And this still doesn't address the vibe of 'I know something you don't know' that you're giving off, Mithadan. If you know something of benefit to us (or even detriment), why are you keeping mum about it? What purpose does it serve to make us question the validity of all of the very solid points that have been made by anybody who clearly cares enough to be part of this discussion?

[Boromir88]

I've wondered whether I should post here, because my last two RPGs (Tears of Mirrormere and An Adventure of Hobbit Proportions) have slowly died to nothing. Despite the sporadic spiritics attempts by Kitanna and Lommy to get the games going again, I've lost all interest in continuing.

I've got no credentials, if anyone asked me why I don't RP on the BD, my first response is, "I'm not terribly interested, and have only joined games when I've been asked, to fill in needed characters." Which is of course a terrible reason to sign-up for an RPG, I don't want to be filler space, and don't want a Game owner to count on me in any way, because chances are, I'll lose interest quickly.

So, why am I saying anything? Well, I've been a part of a few lovable RPGs (Ungoliant's Children - which I recall being very very short, but a good RPG for a first timer like myself. Siege of Gundabad, and my favorite was probably Sailing Away). And I still have Form's RPG proposal in my PM box, which I would be interested in, if he ever gets started on the thing! Form, I checked the date, that was sent in March, of last YEAR! Get a move on!

Anyway, RPGs can certainly be fun and interesting on the BD. I don't think anyone is saying that it's not. And, I'm not sure what any of the moderators and Admins can do about Game Owners and/or players dropping out and the games slowly dying with no end. I mean maybe a Co-owner to games would be a big help, but it's got to be a different role than simply an empty title. I don't know how much you were kept in the loop Lommy, with Groin's game, but I imagine a Co-Owner as one who can step right in and take control in the absense of of the Game Owner. However, the Game Owner needs to let the Co-Owner "in the loop" more if it is to work. Otherwise, the Co-Owner is essentially just another player, only with an empty title like "Assistant to the Regional Manager."

As far as Gondor is concerned. Mithadan, I can see where the good intentions are in rewarding the dedicated and top-forum RPGers. However, when you do that, I think the first problem is the place looks like the Steward's lore archives in the Tower of Ecthelion. It's a tomb, most of those who can be Game Mods have not been active in...how long now? Granted, you don't have to be on the list to play in an RPG, but the list of who can propose a game needs serious updating now. Otherwise, it's just going to look like a dreadful tomb of gone and former, albeit great, RPers.

The other thing is the language of the Gondor-forum is really off putting and intimidating. I mean you're essentially telling people "don't be intimidated. BUT if you are intimidated, this isn't your place. Go to The Shire or Rohan. You can haz more fun there!" It would go a long way to inform people what type of RPing, and the skills you're looking for, in the Gondor forum. Instead of relegating anyone not up to the standard to The Shire or Rohan. I know this isn't your intention for having the Gondor forum, I'm just saying what it looks like to an outsider. The language is far from welcoming and encouraging RPers, it's quite intimidating.

Also, it sets up a tier between 3 RP forums. It's as if, "you're not good enough for Gondor, so go goof off in The Shire." Ok, I am being too generic there, but don't you see the point? It makes The Shire and Rohan look like inferior places, and thus, the games in there are inferior. When you have in this inferiority built in, people are far more likely to slack off and not take the games in the Shire and Rohan seriously.

Anyway, that's my take on the RP forums. Some things like Game Owners and players dropping out, no one can do anything about. Unless if it's a flaw in the system which is making people just decide NOT to care about the RPGing (which I don't think is the case). However, Mithadan, there are certainly things that can be changed with Gondor, and the 3 forums in general which could improve.

[mark12_30]

the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I've gotta be honest, I'm surprised that this is still coming up. There's really only one game running (barely) in Gondor. Otherwise its been pretty much abandoned for about 4 years. Gondor was NEVER intended to be elitist. It was supposed to be an award or honor for skill and effort. The goal was that the majority of gamers would end up in Gondor and those who weren't yet would be newcomers.

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

As the owner of that (barely running) game... I'd like to point out that we carefully recruited participants from Rohan and The Shire; the game began in The White Horse Inn, and indeed once the game left the White Horse Inn and officially began in Gondor, I was the only Gondorian in the game (except for a guest appearance by Estelyn early on.) Littlemanpoet advanced to gamestarter status in Gondor midway through the game; so did Aylwen Dreamsong.

The main requirement in that game was that the game be as canonical as possible; that exceptions to canonicity would be brought before the entire team to be resolved; if that did not resolve the issue, we would bring it before elders of the Downs and seek their opinions as t othe canonicity of the subplot involved. I am proud (of my team!) to state that this was never necessary; all who volounteered for the game were as dedicated to writing *for* Tolkien as I was. In other words, canonicity was the main requirement for the game, and all the Rohirrim and Shirelings who joined were as adamantly pro-canonical as I was. The issue never even came up, unless I am forgetting something.

However-- currently, all but lmp and I have faded from the game completely. This will be moot in about ten or twenty more posts, which is all it will take to close the tale. ( And therein lies the delay-- I don't WANT to close it, any more than I wanted The Lonely Star to close. ) But the game was not a 'closed-to-outsiders-elitist' game.

[mark12_30]

Regarding the plotline in The Seventh Star: I don't think there is one, or hasn't been one for a long time. People rarely come and go, and few discussions happen. It is a dusty place. Sometimes I have had fun with that (I've played a mouse there, for one thing.) But it does serve as a reminder that a once flourishing place has become tired, quiet, and faded.

Oddly enough, if the posting members of The Coming Of Age Club were to post, in some sort of character, in the Inn, discussing the same things but in Tolkienese, then The Seventh Star would come to life. At least, I always thought that was what it was for. Isn't that what a real Inn is for? It takes a little work to do it in character-- but that's half the fun. We do that to some degree in "The Coming of Age Club". Be a mouse if you want to, but stop by the inn and say Hello. Have a stout, come on over to the fireplace, put your feet up by the fire, and tell me how you've been.

[Formendacil]

The point is well taken from some of the elder members that we've discussed the problems in great detail, but we need to start proposing solutions. I would quibble that these have been suggested already, but in very tentative ways, but before I can even quite get to the point of looking at concrete solutions, I think it might be helpful to recap the situation, as I see it.

Problems Facing Us in the Current Situation:

Basically, this seems to come down to a problem of numbers. The current three-tier RPing system--which, as an aside, I think was entirely valid when it started--hails back to a time when there were many more people on the Downs generally, but especially in the RP forums. This numbers problem is somewhat compounded by the popularity of WW games, which draws from the same pool of people. As Nog notes, however, RPs and WW are different in kind and cannot simply be interchanged for each other.

The general mood would add to the numbers problem the additional concern that the three-tier system is "elitist"--and, perhaps, that's a bit of a straw man position, but, hey, this is a recap... The root of the elitist complaint, in my opinion, is that the three-tier system is too much structure for so few people. In an era when the Gondorian players with status to open games were highly active, and were invited people in regularly--and when there was a lot of activity in the lower fora as well--I don't get the impression that it was too much structure or elitism. It may have been off-putting to start out "small"... but we can all list games in the Shire that were not mere babysitting hoops to jump through, but fun, even complex, stories we all enjoyed.

That was then. Now we have no gamers active in Gondor to invite those who have proven their mettle, so the forum looks even hoarier and more forbidding than it should (even if there is truly a high value of licit foreboding involved). Rohan and the Shire move along quietly, but without clear distinctions betwixt them, save the impression to newcomers and outsiders that they are hierarchical and rigid, and somewhat sluggish.

There is also the problem that games often drag on far past their expiration dates in a perpetual limbo, which decreases everyone's willingness to get involved in the next game.

Things Worth Keeping in the Current System:

Despite these problems, I don't think anyone is suggesting that we go back to the days of the Wild West--even though it would be more of a Ghost Town than a Gold Rush. I think other people should really think through what they like about the system as we have it. They should also think, though, about whether or not these qualities are something that need to be present throughout the gaming fora generally, or if they would be sufficiently present if they were only in the rules for a particular game.

Speaking for myself, the one thing about the current system that I would not want to lose is the forum-moderator(s). Pio plays an indispensible role, and I think that in a restructured Gaming Forum we would still want someone to approve new games, with an eye to whether they're sufficiently Tolkien, and to help with general forum maintenance/policing. In case it's not obvious, I don't think we want heavy-handed mods (nor do I think we have them now), but we do need someone to open/close/merge threads, and I think it's important besides that for the forum to have someone who can serve as a Court of Appeals, if disputes break out between players. Bêthberry's anecdote about moderating in a way comparable to the Books forum was very interesting to me. I think the general hands-off, helpful approach is definitely worth emulating, and I certainly don't want to imply that she did things wrong before, but speaking from my own experience as the Gaming Moderator on another (albeit less excellent or literary) forum, I think it does require a special sort of interest... mostly, though, it's about having common sense, fairly regular availability, and a good handle on both Tolkien and RPing.

However, since this is something I want to keep that we already have, perhaps I've been unnecessarily long-winded.

Suggestions for a New Gaming Forum

What follows are my own thoughts, intended most to get the ball rolling.

I think we should have:

1. Two forums, rather than the current three.

2. These fora should be distinguished between "Doriath" (Tightly Controlled) and "Rivendell" * (Loosely Controlled). In a sense, this will parallel to the current "highly babysat in the Shire" and mark's free expressionism in Gondor, but not exactly.

3. Doriath:

a. Games in Doriath may be started by any BDer who wants to start a game (no prior experience required), though they will have to run the game by the Mods for approval.

b. The game must adhere to all the current rules about being Middle-earth based.

c. The mods might also deny someone the right to start a game on the basis of past failures to run a successful game, but this need not be hard and fast rule.

d. The game owner will be the game moderator, and will have a fairly "controlled" game. In plot vs. character terms, these would be plot-driven games, and would be the kind of games that Snowdog can't really play. The powers of the game owner might be considered comparable to those of a WW mod: broad discretion, subject to their own posted rules and those of the forum.

e. They would also be required to have a definite timeframe (3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years, whatever), and players would have a right to expect the game to end at the end of the advertised timeline. If the game was not over, players would have a right to drop out of the game, regardless of its status, or to remain aboard with the moderator (who would also have the right to drop out) and continue--but the continuation would also require a deadline.

f. Games would be by invitation or open to interested comers according to the preference of the game owner.

g. In the event of the disappearance of the game owner, the players could either request and propose a new game owner from among their numbers or the game could be terminated. Alternatively, the disappearing game owner could have a co-owner from the beginning, or appoint one when the crisis arose.

4. Rivendell:

a. The Rivendell forum would be for open-ended games (those with no deadlines) and for character-driven games where collaborative writing rather than a plot idea was the main motivator.

b. Anyone on the Downs could propose a game in this forum, subject to Mod approval. The Mod(s) would be within their rights to refuse newcomers and/or inexperienced players.

c. Because of the collaborative nature, there would be no formal game owner. A game might be, in practice, led and/or founded by someone, but that person's disappearance would not automatically cause the game to be closed or reassigned, since their role would not formally be to run the game.


So... umm... that's a lot of writing. Thoughts?






*For the sake of having a name, Doriath and Rivendell is what I'm using in this proposal. "The Shire" and "Rohan" could be retained or "the Shire" and "Gondor," or new names devised, or whatever... I just needed names.

[Firefoot]

I guess I don't see why there can't be room for both the types of games that Durelin and Snowdog are describing vs the type that Fea outlined. The two types are likely to attract different players (that's kinda obvious, I know), but personally I like both sorts...

The issues that need to be addressed would be: in a more free-form game, how do you make sure it doesn't wend on for years and years so that the players just slowly drop out due to RL constraints? And in a more structured game, how do you give the players some ownership in it so they don't feel like they're just going through the motions of putting a story together?

I think the key is to make the expectations clear at the beginning. If you want it not to have a set plot and you want for people to feel free to introduce twists as they desire, that ought to be explained up front. And if there's a plan for the story, that should be said upfront as well.

Personally, I don't see why all of this has to be mutually exclusive. I've always really enjoyed RP'ing at the Downs, and having been in a rather wide variety of game types and complexities I think there are things to be enjoyed about all of them.

Maybe I should also mention that I've never RP'ed anywhere else so I don't really have a feel for other ways that it can work.

I guess what might better help me conceptualize all this is this: Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

Well... let me start off with a bit on my one and only experience participating in an RP here on Barrow Downs in what was it... 2003-4... We had a good setting and outline for an RP, and some writers that wanted to commit to it. At the time the "rules" were there had to be a time limit for the conclusion of the RP, and so that in itself put, on me anyway, pressure to develop the story, write it through, and conclude it within a certain time frame before it even really started. But I gave it a go. I got a few posts into it, and I started getting PMs about my posts and requests to edit them so they would fit someone else's concept of what the RP direction should be. The first time was a minor detail and I agreed to 'tweak' my post to accommodate. another post later, I get a Pm request to edit a whole section of my post. I didn't do it, instead told them to work around it. I don't think I continued after that, being real life was drama enough and I didn't need to try and work at writing posts that were acceptable to other writers. I never had this sort of interaction anywhere else on the net I have RP'd. Instead of a free flow of interaction, it seemed that RPs had to be "scripted" here. The whole structure of the Shire, Rohan, and Gondor and how you had to 'work your way up' added to that, along with the extensive character bios and opening setting that had to be set before you could even begin to try and write a tale. Its like I said before... an RP had to be constructed, not created. Maybe that's how an RP "GAME" (as the term so lovingly is used here) is done I guess. Its was a style I obviously didn't fit into. I'm a writer not a gamer. I thrive in the spontaneous interaction of other writers who can take what is posted and use it to carry the story forward and leave hooks for others to use in their posts, etc. I understand why the stringent rules were put into place here, and the three tier forums, etc., but carrying it to the letter, with a forum mod being what I consider, overly intrusive in structuring individual RPs by copying writer's posts and putting then in their omnibus posts seemed a bit much.

Sorry about the ramble. I doubt I will ever partake in RPs here, or even post in the inns. I have tried on occasion in the past, and my ppsts were either ignored because the didn't fit into whatever plot-line had been discussed in an OOC, or whatever reason. I have also been invited to post in the inns in Rohan and Gondor, but never could push myself to put forth the effort to do so because I had to wonder if the effort coming up with characters and posts would be worth it when I had a hard time trying to figure out what all was supposed to be happening in the inn at the time. So it goes. I don't seem to have this issue on other sites, and can engage with minimal effort. I'm not saying how things are done here are worse or better than how they are done on other sites, I'm just saying that it's always been hard for me to find a comfortable niche to write here.

That said, I have enjoyed reading some of the RP threads and inns, and even got some ideas from reading them. I just can't see myself being able to meet expectations of writing here without tremendous effort on my part to 'work' it into acceptability. Barrow Downs RP"gaming" is what it is, and suits many, but not me.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Its like I said before... an RP had to be constructed, not created. Maybe that's how an RP [i]"GAME"[i] (as the term so lovingly is used here) is done I guess. Its was a style I obviously didn't fit into. I'm a writer not a gamer. I thrive in the spontaneous interaction of other writers who can take what is posted and use it to carry the story forward and leave hooks for others to use in their posts, etc.

I think Snowdog has an important point here, the distinction between gamer and writer, between game and role play. Games are always directed by a manager--think back to Dungeon's and Dragon's--and highly organised. Think of Werewolf, which is highly structured by plot/time. A werewolf game is not really about developing character and seeing how that relates to action. (I differ on this point from others.) It's controlled. But role play isn't so highly controlled; 'play' is not always structured drama, but, well, play--imaginative combinations. Children need both play and game to develop healthily. (I mean this in the most positive way, as an essential nature of the human species.) Maybe we threw the baby out with the bathwater?

I also have some sympathy with 'dawg's comments because in several games my posts were called into question by the game owner. At one point, even my wording was questioned (and no, it wasn't spelling or grammar). In fact, I probably greatly disappointed one of the game owners because I refused to write my character the way he wanted. This meant there was no maudlin resolution between her and her father (which to my mind would have violated the character's psychology) although there still was a climactic resolution.

I also understand well dawg's idea of posting spontaneously with hooks for other gamers to pick up, because I started gaming at an Inn he ran on another forum. The Inn wandered all over the place as it was never expected to have a beginning, middle and end. (Did "Cheers" the TV show have an overarching plot? Or was it just episodic?) But it did inspire several games, as gamers worked on character and came up with ideas, and those games had some sense of direction which the writers worked within.

I've had "hooks" taken in directions completely unlike what I anticipated and this was fun, because it was challenging. I've also had 'hooks' completely ignored, to the point where I felt there were parallel projects going on and my character was being ignored. (sob! ) That happened, I think, because I was spontaneously creating actions for reactions whereas other gamers were following some master, prepared game plan. I've also found it frustrating when nothing happens for an eon after a post, because it's like talking to yourself in a void. Or some kind of writerly interruptus.

I will reiterate: I think gamers and game owners would be more committed if they felt the actual writing accomplished something that the planning hadn't already done.

And to support another point: Mark has clarified a good point about Gondor, which my word 'literary' didn't really get at, with her use of "canonical". Yes, Gondor was where the most canonical (or deliberately non-canonical) games were to be. Good games and good writing can occur in all forums, and be created by all ages, but playing consciously and deliberately with Tolkien's style--getting inside his style as he got inside language--was supposed to be the defining mark. (Sorry, no pun intended on Helen's nick.)

EDIT: Sorry, cross-posted with Formy and Mithadan.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And to support another point: Mark has clarified a good point about Gondor, which my word 'literary' didn't really get at, with her use of "canonical". Yes, Gondor was where the most canonical (or deliberately non-canonical) games were to be. Good games and good writing can occur in all forums, and be created by all ages, but playing consciously and deliberately with Tolkien's style--getting inside his style as he got inside language--was supposed to be the defining mark.

Extremely high standards (but there's nothing bad about high standards, as usually anyone who cares will rise to them - and hopefully above them). So, you've concisely pointed out the expected standards, and reasons for the Gondor forum.

I think though, and why the "elitist" sentiments have come up again, something got lost in the translation to the Gondor forum. I know it's no one's intentions on here to discourage, and make it insanely hard on new RPGers, but I think the standards you've pointed out Beth, aren't made clear enough in Gondor.

Several times it's mentioned that Gondor is the most advanced and expert RPG place. The people posting there have to live up to quality posts and the high standards. There's nothing wrong with having that advanced system, and with an end goal of hoping the place continues to grow and still keep those same "Tolkien" standards of writing. The issue becomes, there is no explanation of what you mean by "maintaining high quality posts." Quality or higher standards are vague, and subjective. Not completely subjective, but what I would call "high quality" may vary from what you call "high quality." We become lost by what the expectations for posting in Gondor are (other than...it has to be high quality!), just as Mithadan was lost when he asked what we want him to do. Combine the high expectations with, "if you don't measure up to these, you may be asked to leave Gondor, but don't feel intimidated!," and that is where the feelings of elitism come up.

We wander in the dark, not knowing what we have to do to get to Gondor, and then finally get frustrated by wandering in the dark for so long. Having an advanced RP-forum, that sets high expectations in and of itself, is not elitist. I don't feel it is, but if there are no clear and explained standards, and "if you can't maintain these standards, you shouldn't be here," does have the unintentional feel of elitism. If the purpose of Gondor is to grow and tap into the talented writers of the forum, we need guides.

Gondor is looking like another Elvenhome. That doesn't mean it needs to be completely tossed out, but life needs brought into it. I am not a writer by any means, but I know (and have met) several talented writers on this forum. Make it easier on the writers and guide members better on the RPG expectations (particularly the high ones for Gondor). I find it impossible to set standards that are too high for people, but we need to know what those standards are and help getting there to reach full potential.

[Firefoot]

I'm just ducking in here really quickly, but I'd like to say I like Formy's idea a lot.

Another idea I'd just like to throw out there - it just occurred to me and I haven't really thought it through, but what if we also created a place (forum? subforum? or maybe a new place isn't really necessary) where people could just toss around ideas with each other? In my mind this serves a similar purpose to the discussion/administrative thread in werewolf where people throw around ideas for new special rules or whatnot. For example, say I'm thinking about starting an RPG but don't really have any concrete ideas... I could start a thread saying something like, "I'd like to write about x, is anyone else also interested and would you like to help come up with a plot idea?" I'm not suggesting totally getting rid of the game owner model, but this could run along side it as a more collaborative sort of thing... although maybe this is almost exactly what planning threads do now. Just a rambling thought - I have to run now.

[Snowdog]

I'm off to work, but very quickly I'll suggest that opening up the Shire (or another forum of whatever you want to call it), for free writing without this control or that control may bring in some new people, creativity, and such. There would be general forum RP rules and guidelines that are common sense ones (using other 's characters, no one or two liner posts, etc.) but the actual tale/"game" would be up to the creator to open up or restrict. Apparently this "Wild West" style is adamantly rejected here. But It's my thought on the matter. I have to deal with too much micro and pico-management at work to want to deal with it on my own leisure time writing.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Mnemo

I think that's why I'm more concerned with making sure that RPs are structured in the sense of, yes, they have a story to tell, and that story has a concrete beginning and ending. The Inns are fine for less concrete stuff, but really, Durelin, is it okay to have long-term stories that are more or less free-form, that players can hop into and out of? It's just a concept that's alien to me, probably because I got acquainted with RPs as a reader, and I write fan fiction, and I'm a big continuity geek.

You're asking me if it's okay, but you haven't pointed out anything wrong with it. Even if you look at it purely from a story-writing perspective, which RPing is NOT purely (everyone looks at it differently; to some it is story writing, to some it is more like a game, to some it is more like 'acting' in writing so to speak, etc)...a story doesn't begin with all of its characters necessarily. Many characters are introduced later. Some show up for a brief time. If you insist on extreme organization and as you've mentioned, perfect continuity, you can enforce that in a game/story/thread you initiate. But why not let others start threads/stories/games that do not enforce that?

I'm basically with a lot of what Bethberry has said. And Mithalwen as well. Let's leave it up to people to start games/threads and determine THEIR parameters for that game/thread/story. The moderators would then be working on the front end rather than the back end, as Bethberry has suggested. Rather than having to look over every game proposal before hand, they keep an eye on what's being posted and step in only when necessary.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

it just occurred to me and I haven't really thought it through, but what if we also created a place (forum? subforum? or maybe a new place isn't really necessary) where people could just toss around ideas with each other

I like this idea. That was part of the organization I suggested in my original (freakishly long) post. One Discussion forum and One RP/IC forum -- which is a typical organization on many discussion forums with an RP section.

Piosenniel - When I say 'Mod,' such as in the note at the end of my last post, I mean forum moderator. I've started using words like initiator and other such nonsense to describe what has been known as the 'game owner' (the person who starts the game/thread)

Originally Posted by Mnemo

The way I see it, there are two ways we can go about this, if we must have rules: regulating games through control of players (who's allowed to play at what level), and regulating games through control of games. And no, WW games aren't approved, but there's a queue mechanism in place that's existed as long as the game has, and when someone unreliable started up a game but then didn't do anything with it (IIRC) the group had to step in and make lots of rules.

The thing is, why do we need to control/regulate necessarily on the back end. Let people post threads, begin games -- just like in WW (the queue idea really doesn't apply to RPs, unless we're going to limit the number of threads/games that can go on at once which seems a little crazy to me). If there's a problem with the game/thread -- as in, it breaks some sort of rule -- then the forum moderators step in as necessary. But they are not required to initiate every RP, every thread, etc.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Extremely high standards (but there's nothing bad about high standards, as usually anyone who cares will rise to them - and hopefully above them). So, you've concisely pointed out the expected standards, and reasons for the Gondor forum.

Actually, I was simply riffing off Mark's post, which touched a point I had made earlier when I said that Rohan was a difficult forum to define and I thought her explanation was better than mine. (And I haven't actually said anything about how many forums I think there should be.)

The procedure for getting to Gondor is fairly straight forward. A gamer simply follows the explanations given in The Shire and Rohan. When I was Moderator of Rohan, all one had to do was run a game in Rohan successfully (which largely meant finishing it), having successfully run a game in The Shire (which got you into Rohan). I don't know if this still pertains but I would expect so. (Why Noggie isn't in Gondor, for example, might simply be that he hasn't had time to finish running a game in Rohan--my guess. Or the inclination.) So, the procedure is I think fairly clear. Play in a game in The Shire, run a game in The Shire, run a game in Rohan, your name goes on the list of Gondorian gamers.

In terms of that more elusive definition of the kind of games anticipated in Gondor, there's always the option of reading games that have been played in Gondor and seeing what they are like. Maybe not all of them will fit that definition of canonicity which Mark suggested and I seconded. But reading them will surely give a person a clear idea of the complexity of the games--complexity on many different levels. (And, to be fair, as I recall when the forums were set up, we couldn't decide where to put the game called Rohan, but finally decided it belonged in the forum of its own name, Rohan. ) And as Mark pointed out, a Gondorian game owner can ask any Downer to play in her or his game. In addition to those Mark names, I seem to recall that Diamond18 and Lush wrote for REB, and I don't think they are on the Gondorian list for game owners. I honestly cannot think of one person who, having completed the procedure for gaming in The Shire and Rohan, was denied access to Gondor as game owner. So I don't think it's the description of Gondor which intimidates. It's the failure of gamers in The Shire and Rohan to finish games and ask to be moved on.

Note that neither Mark nor I wrote the description for Gondor.

pio, when I say Mod or Moderator I mean your position, the one I had, Estelyn's, not facilitator or game initiator.

Formy, I really think it would be better to move away from the idea that a game needs to be approved--or nodded at--by a Moderator, because I think the entire atmosphere needs to be changed whereby people take ownership for their rpg-ing. Your "as a formality" is quite different from what I think is the case now with it's character bios and extended plot lines. I mean, right now animal characters are not allowed at the Meadhall. Where does that put the game My Crow Management, which was a Rohan game, where all the characters were crows?

And yes, Mnemosyne, Translations from the Elvish had a restricted list, but that was for very different reasons.

Sorry if I've skipped other points but RL is being very urgent and I have a PM to reply to from pio.

[Nogrod]

I'm getting to like Form's suggestion more and more, especially after his clarifications on it.

But I'd also like to put some flesh on the bones here by way of asking a few questions. So where would you put the following RP's?

1) "I have this idea that a bunch of people should try to get into place X to warn the king about the on-falling war brewing. I have a few obstacles laid out for you guys so let's see can you overcome them?"

2) "I have this idea that we'd collect these bunch of people escaping from enslavement and then let them meet with some fugitives from an oppising race both in as bad condition: then we could see how they would relate to each other if they had a common enemy."

3) "I have this idea we take this group and they go wandering about the forests to see if there is any adventure brewing. Anyone with a god idea about an adventure should cme forwards."

4) "I have this idea of a Mead Hall where anyone could come and go but as not to bore ourselves by just playing only social relations like those morning-soap operas in TV let's invent some plots in there every now and then to liven things up?"

5) "I have this fan-fic story of mine I would like to make you perform. I'l tell you what to do and how to write and then you do the writing under my supreme control. Anticipate me correcting your posts if I don't like them."

6) "I have this idea of a game where this odd bunch (previously unrelated an different characters) would be thrown into a shipwreck being the sole survivors. Let's see then how they would get along with each other and how they would try to get themselves back to the land?"

7) "I have this basic storyline concerning the very first Atani getting over Morgoth's trickery and reaching Yavanna & Oromë. Do you think you're up to the challenge?"


As someone might have noticed, numbers 1-4 are actually near some actual games that have taken place here, and only numbers 5-7 are deliberately invented.


Now using Form's categories, I'd say that game-ideas 1, 5 and 7 should belong to "Doriath" and the others to "Rivendell". Case 2 could be discussed though as the "getting there" woud require some active leading from the part of the gameowner (or whatever the term for the initiator of the game would be), but after it reached the aimed condition it would sound to me more like a Rivendell one.

I don't think the length should be a decisive factor. The one initiating the game should tell others whether s/he's looking forwards to a long one or a short one - and the others could make their decisions to join or not also based on that.

But what I see coming through from these examples loud and clear is that the Doriath games would be much more dependent on the gameowner while the Rivendell ones could be more collectively led.

But that is no way a "writing-quality"-issue! I could see a bunch of creative and involved writers making a great story from 7) even if the gameowner had the basic outline of the story already planned - and I could see big egoes and non-co-operative players ruining story 6).

Also, from the form I deliberately took up there with my examples you can see that I do think we shoud open the ownership of the RP's to anyone. Anyone could suggest a game by opening a thread and if there were enough players interested in it the people interested could play it. And if there was not, then the gme woud not go on.

Okay, I can see a problem lurking here... With a new ruling given there might be a burst of new games offered and there could be something like a beauty or popularity contest involved.

Even if I do also belong to the camp carrying the cards of the "less rules, less regulation" -camp, I do think we should have a few basic rules & requirements. Like that those willing to set up their own game should have played at least in one game before it - so that the others had an idea of the person and her/his reliability as a gameowner etc. (This is something I think the werewolfing community has been wise enough to regulate themselves n that vein after a few bad experiences).

Taking Form's two categories would then leave us to decide on what to do with the Inns. My gut feeling would be the following.

Let's make the Scarburg Mead Hall a Rivendell game with a long history behind it.

The Golden Perch Inn I'm less clear about (I haven't been reading it in a long time so I'm not exactly sure how it goes nowadays). But I do think we should have a "boot camp" of sorts for those willing to familiarise themselves with RPG'ing in the 'Downs - and if it's not the GP, then we'd need to come up with a new one for that purpose (although it should be rewarding enough to the innkeeper and those others of us writing there when there is no imminent flow of new writers rushing in all the time ).

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Durelin

You're asking me if it's okay, but you haven't pointed out anything wrong with it. Even if you look at it purely from a story-writing perspective, which RPing is NOT purely (everyone looks at it differently; to some it is story writing, to some it is more like a game, to some it is more like 'acting' in writing so to speak, etc)...a story doesn't begin with all of its characters necessarily. Many characters are introduced later. Some show up for a brief time. If you insist on extreme organization and as you've mentioned, perfect continuity, you can enforce that in a game/story/thread you initiate. But why not let others started threads/stories/games that do not enforce that?

Which is why I switched very quickly to "this may be just a problem with me and my perspective." I guess I wouldn't mind seeing people try a game like that out, but it's just so different from anything I've encountered on the 'Downs that I don't know if the culture is there to maintain it. Worth a shot, though, and there's no real reason for me to object to allowing such games.

I love the idea of a subforum just running ideas through, though, and seeing if there's enough interest in a particular concept or style before investing time and effort in creating a game that no one else wants to play. That could easily replace a "mod must approve all games" system, and it'd be more democratic too.

[mark12_30]

The Seventh Star is already a -- excuse the term-- free for all. But few post there. I wish more people would.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm getting to like Form's suggestion more and more, especially after his clarifications on it.

But I'd also like to put some flesh on the bones here by way of asking a few questions. So where would you put the following RP's?

I'm actually going to answer all of these--not because I disagree with your guesses (though I've not looked at them in detail), but because this is a really excellent opportunity to explain the distinction I'm trying to make.

]1) "I have this idea that a bunch of people should try to get into place X to warn the king about the on-falling war brewing. I have a few obstacles laid out for you guys so let's see can you overcome them?"

I would say this is a Doriath game: the motivating idea is the plot, which is driven and known by the game owner, and the "I" in "I have a few obstacles laid out" is crucial.

2) "I have this idea that we'd collect these bunch of people escaping from enslavement and then let them meet with some fugitives from an opposing race both in as bad condition: then we could see how they would relate to each other if they had a common enemy."

This looks like a Rivendell game, because the main interest is in the interplay of characters, and its very open-ended in terms of what things will go. Its description pretty much begs for full player interaction to move the story along--the plot is contingent on characterisation.

3) "I have this idea we take this group and they go wandering about the forests to see if there is any adventure brewing. Anyone with a good idea about an adventure should come forwards."

This could go either way. Probably, if I were a mod, I'd nudge it in the direction of Rivendell, since the person suggesting it clearly doesn't want to run things that strongly. On the other hand, this might just be someone with an idea looking for a co-mod to work with in Doriath.

4) "I have this idea of a Mead Hall where anyone could come and go but as not to bore ourselves by just playing only social relations like those morning-soap operas in TV let's invent some plots in there every now and then to liven things up?"

Hey! I actually know what this one is. I'd call it a grandfather-clause exception to the rules, really--but agree it belongs in Rivendell. The mod is very much a facilitator in Rohan, rather than a game director, and the players are all very much involved in the direction the game take and the ownership of the game.

5) "I have this fan-fic story of mine I would like to make you perform. I'll tell you what to do and how to write and then you do the writing under my supreme control. Anticipate me correcting your posts if I don't like them."

Well, phrased that way, I can't imagine wanting to join (actually, not true... I'd be tempted if Fea or maybe Elempi were running it), but aside from that off-topic reality, it would clearly go in Doriath. Even though this could as easily be about character as plot, the game owner clearly intends to run things. As said, even this could be fun, with the right owner.

6) "I have this idea of a game where this odd bunch (previously unrelated an different characters) would be thrown into a shipwreck being the sole survivors. Let's see then how they would get along with each other and how they would try to get themselves back to the land?"

Strikes me as another Rivendell story, because the "game owner" (for lack of clear, accurate, synonym) is proposing the idea rather than planning to run it. Once again, the emphasis on characterisation is a good shorthand way of telling that this will be a player consensus game rather than a owner-rule game.

7) "I have this basic storyline concerning the very first Atani getting over Morgoth's trickery and reaching Yavanna & Oromë. Do you think you're up to the challenge?"

I'd call this a Doriath game in the absence of any more info, but it would depend. There's a clear, defined plot that, to me, suggests the game owner plans to be in charge of the overall arc, nudging things in the right direction... but this could also be run with as a Rivendell game, where it's put forward as a game premise.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I don't think the length should be a decisive factor. The one initiating the game should tell others whether s/he's looking forwards to a long one or a short one - and the others could make their decisions to join or not also based on that.

To me, length isn't decisive, but I do think it needs to be considered, particularly in "Doriath" cases. My reasoning is that when a game's creator is going to have a strong guiding hand in his/her game, then the players should have a clear commitment from that creator to be around for a defined period of time. In "Rivendell" this may be less crucial, since the whole game isn't as dependent on a single leader, but I think it's still fair to have an expected timeframe.

In other words, I wouldn't consign short games to Doriath and long ones to Rivendell (or vice versa), but I do think that Doriath games (at least) should have a planned timeframe. These can always be extended, but whether it's two weeks or two years, telling players how long a game is likely to last is an act of commitment on the part of the game owner, and given the responsibility an owner has in Doriath, that seems fair to me.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But what I see coming through from these examples loud and clear is that the Doriath games would be much more dependent on the gameowner while the Rivendell ones could be more collectively led.

But that is no way a "writing-quality"-issue! I could see a bunch of creative and involved writers making a great story from 7) even if the gameowner had the basic outline of the story already planned - and I could see big egoes and non-co-operative players ruining story 6).

Exactly the idea! I have no problem against particular games being invitation-only, either in Doriath or Rivendell, and if the game owner/proposer wants (and can get!) the best of the best writers, it will be a joy to read... but we don't need a separate forum for it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, from the form I deliberately took up there with my examples you can see that I do think we should open the ownership of the RP's to anyone. Anyone could suggest a game by opening a thread and if there were enough players interested in it the people interested could play it. And if there was not, then the game would not go on.

Agreed--and this was an implicit assumption in my proposal.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay, I can see a problem lurking here... With a new ruling given there might be a burst of new games offered and there could be something like a beauty or popularity contest involved.

I... would love to see that. My own bet is that we'll be lucky to have a few ground-breakers to pave the way. As excited as well all are, our numbers aren't dense, and most of us have been around so long (and might be too jaded) that we might not want to go first. Additionally, I think enough of us have played WW that we can see the benefits in "taking turns" to an extent (though we need to be one game at a time, I doubt anyone is up for playing in more than two or so at a given moment).

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Formy, I really think it would be better to move away from the idea that a game needs to be approved--or nodded at--by a Moderator, because I think the entire atmosphere needs to be changed whereby people take ownership for their rpg-ing. Your "as a formality" is quite different from what I think is the case now with it's character bios and extended plot lines. I mean, right now animal characters are not allowed at the Meadhall. Where does that put the game My Crow Management, which was a Rohan game, where all the characters were crows?

Insofar as you're quite right that my "as a formality" is intended to be quite different from the status quo, I have no problem with moving away from the idea that a game needs approval. Personally, I think it is still helpful to run game plans by someone else--and having a mod gives you someone with an "official" standing whose job is to listen to such schemes--but insofar as it was only a formality I had in mind, it's easily dropped. My main thought about it was to safeguard the right of the forum mods to close or veto games, and that it would save people embarrassment if this happened before a thread was started, rather than after. If, however, that still smacks too much of the current regime, I (at least) have no problem with post-thread-starting moderation. As has been said, it does seem to work elsewhere on the Downs with little enough problem...