Silmarillion - Chapter 21 - Of Túrin Turambar

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Surely by now everyone knows that I preview my posts several times before posting them.

Originally Posted by reference.com

pig·head·ed   [pig-hed-id]
adjective
stupidly obstinate; stubborn: pigheaded resistance.

Although the most complete version of this story is the Narn I Hîn Húrin, and obviously these days we have CoH, my favourite versions are still those in HME 3.

O! Morwen my mother, why makest me go?
The hills are hateful, where hope is lost;
O! Morwen my mother, I am meshed in tears
for grim are the hills and my home is gone.'
And there came his cries, calling faintly
down the dark alleys of the dreary trees,
that one there weeping weary on the threshold
heard how the hills said 'my home is gone.'

Tolkien's vision of Morwen and Túrin at their parting in Hithlum remained consistent. In the Narn, she grips the door-post until her fingers bleed (a scene very reminiscent of the family sagas), yet throughout the revisions her pride prevents her from accepting Thingol's offer of refuge. In the alliterative Lay, she cannot face being "the alms-guest of others" and would rather suffer the indignities of occupation, and separation from Túrin. The suffering she inflicts, not least on herself, is unnecessary. It should also be remembered that pride - her chief motivation in this - is an attribute of the devil. As Tolkien was doubtless aware, one of the descriptions of Satan in the Old English Genesis is se engel ofermodes ('the angel of pride'). He and the Anglo-Saxon poet were co-religionists, and would probably have agreed that no good can come of following Satan's example.

However, Morwen remains a sympathetic and tragic character. At least one reason for her remaining in Hithlum for so long is that she hopes against reason that Húrin will return, and her later headlong flight from Doriath in search of Túrin is motivated by love and concern for him. Her meeting with Húrin in the next chapter is one of the best things Tolkien ever wrote. Nonetheless, the refusal to take advice, the insistence on following one's own immediate will without thought, these are a source of tragedy time and again in the Silmarillion. When we consider the tragedy of Húrin's family alongside the story of Tuor this theme becomes even clearer. Tolkien consistently militates against willful pride, against action without counsel, against unilateral decisions. There are obvious religious reasons for this, but I'm given to wonder if there may not be something deeper that motivates this strand of the legendarium.

[Galadriel55]

I get what you're saying with Morwen being overstubborn (though this does not ruin her high position in my "opinion ranks"! ). And then, you could say that Nienor is partially responsible for her and Turin's suicidal end, because she was stubborn enough not to go back to Doriath.


A thought invaded to my mind a short while ago. It is quite ironical (yes, more of that) that Hurin's kin do almost as much, if not as much, damage in a lifetime than the Doom of the Noldor in a couple hundred years. Nargothrond fell when all of them (except for Lalaith, of course) were still alive. And shortly after their end - Doriath, followed by Gondolin. All of these losses were caused directly in Nargothrond's case and indirectly for the other two by the Curse, or by the actions of the family (if you prefer it that way).


But the good thing about it is that Morgoth's Curse, like all his other deeds, ultimately turned against him. If it wasn't for the sac of Doriath and Gondolin, Earendil and Elwing would never have met! And then Earendil would never have gotten the Silmaril that helped him get to Aman. So Morgoth created the perfect circumstances for his own destruction.


ETA: I forgot to say this. "Fixed idea" - I think tht this could be said about many characters from the Narn. And it does relate to stubborness. But sometimes you can't tell one from the other. For example, when Morwen against all councel leaves Doriath to look for Turin, I think it's more of a fixed idea than simply "pig-headed-ness".

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But the good thing about it is that Morgoth's Curse, like all his other deeds, ultimately turned against him. If it wasn't for the sac of Doriath and Gondolin, Earendil and Elwing would never have met! And then Earendil would never have gotten the Silmaril that helped him get to Aman. So Morgoth created the perfect circumstances for his own destruction.

Which goes back to Eru's admonition to Melkor early on, that all he did ultimately was in accord with the design of the One. But that's another thread.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

ETA: I forgot to say this. "Fixed idea" - I think tht this could be said about many characters from the Narn. And it does relate to stubborness. But sometimes you can't tell one from the other. For example, when Morwen against all councel leaves Doriath to look for Turin, I think it's more of a fixed idea than simply "pig-headed-ness".

Well, since the definition of stubborn is "fixed or set in purpose or opinion; resolute", and pig-headed is defined as "stupidly obstinate; stubborn", Morwen was "pig-headed" anyway.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, since the definition of stubborn is "fixed or set in purpose or opinion; resolute", and pig-headed is defined as "stupidly obstinate; stubborn", Morwen was "pig-headed" anyway.

I was trying to differentiate between the concious kind of stubborn when you know exactly what you're doing, and the, erm, "mental" kind of stubborn, when you see the final destination and disregard all and all that is not in the direct path. It's not even an obsession anymore, it's a mania.

Originally Posted by Dictionary

FIXED IDEA: A frozen thought in the mind functioning as a "truth" that the person will automatically act on without thinking about it.

Originally Posted by Another Dictionary

FIXED IDEA: a persistent or obsessing idea, often delusional, that can, in extreme form, be a symptom of psychosis.

So, in other words, Morwen is going crazy. Gradually. (Well, I wasn't going to say that, and I don't want to say that, but it's the best way I can illustrate it to you.)

She's in her right mind when she sends Turin away but refuses to go herself. She's starting to crack up when she finds out in Doriath that Turin is gone. And it goes downhill from there. By the time she met Hurin, "her eyes were wild now, and full of fear", and all that is left in them is the light that she was known for. The only bit of sanity, perhaps? And all she can talk about it her life-long obsession, or, as I would prefer to call it, "fixed idea" - finding her family.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by G55

I was trying to differentiate between the concious kind of stubborn when you know exactly what you're doing, and the, erm, "mental" kind of stubborn, when you see the final destination and disregard all and all that is not in the direct path. It's not even an obsession anymore, it's a mania.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary
FIXED IDEA: A frozen thought in the mind functioning as a "truth" that the person will automatically act on without thinking about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Dictionary
FIXED IDEA: a persistent or obsessing idea, often delusional, that can, in extreme form, be a symptom of psychosis.
So, in other words, Morwen is going crazy. Gradually. (Well, I wasn't going to say that, and I don't want to say that, but it's the best way I can illustrate it to you.)

Hmmn. I'm going to repeat here what I've said on another thread about another character entirely: you need to be very careful about "diagnosing" fictional characters. I hope I won't sound too mean if I point out that it often, as in this case, involves a type of logical fallacy.

Yes, there are people in Tolkien's work who are clearly round the bend, and there are others who crack and end up that way. As a rule-of-thumb, though, I think you can generally assume that what a person says and does is simply an expression of his or her personality.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. I'm going to repeat here what I've said on another thread about another character entirely: you need to be very careful about "diagnosing" fictional characters. I hope I won't sound too mean if I point out that it often, as in this case, involves a type of logical fallacy.

Yeah, that's true. Which is one of the reasons I said that I don't want to put it that way. And the reason I put "fixed idea" in quotation marks. I still think that Morwen starts acting stubborn because of her "mania" more than logical decisions at some point. (Bck in Dor-lomin, she made a decision to send turin away and remain herself. But going to Nargothrond was half a "mania" that she followed.)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Would you care to elaborate? Do you mean there is something in the depiction of Morwen that involves his own personal relationship with his mother? Or do you mean something more general about his ideas concerning pride?

I hadn't thought very deeply about it. The idea came to me as an afterthought at the end of my post. I think it's more likely that Tolkien identified a certain tendency in that direction in himself, although he was quick to deny it. This would explain his preoccupation with tollkühn, and his use of its anglicised form Rashbold in the Notion Club material at least twice (although it should always be noted that he was forever using translations of or punning references to his name in other languages). Certainly I detect an uncertainty at several points in his literary career over the rightness from a Catholic perspective of his continued sub-creation, which he may have sometimes seen as presumption. Such second-guessing tempts fate to say the least, so I preferred to leave the question open to suggestions. It seems unlikely to me, though, that Morwen embodies Tolkien's opinion of his own mother. If that were the case I would expect far more sympathetic a character, to judge by the references he makes to his parents in his published letters.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

Tolkien consistently militates against willful pride, against action without counsel, against unilateral decisions. There are obvious religious reasons for this, but I'm given to wonder if there may not be something deeper that motivates this strand of the legendarium.

Would you care to elaborate? Do you mean there is something in the depiction of Morwen that involves his own personal relationship with his mother? Or do you mean something more general about his ideas concerning pride?