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#1 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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While I agree that because Morgoth was the origin of evil in the world, by being evil Sauron was continuing what Morgoth started, it seems to me that the only way that constitutes loyalty is in an unintentional and metaphysical way. The idea I'm arguing against is that he was actively still devoted to Morgoth, which is to say that he was doing what he did to Morgoth's glory or because he believed Morgoth's cause was right. As we've seen, Morgoth's cause and Sauron's greatly differed in the end, so surely as far as Sauron was concerned his activities in the Second and Third Ages were meant to fulfil his own ambitions. Quote:
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#2 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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1. Go back to valinor and ask for pardon or judgement. 2. Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people. Remember even when Morgoth was loose in middle earth and tormented the children the valas did nothing. They do not directly intervene, therefore by staying in middle earth Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth. Sure one could say he became his own master, but that is ONLY because Morgoth was not in the freckin world. That is like saying if a general is killed in battle the soldier all of a sudden isn't loyal to the dead general because he now has to order himself around and keep fighting the enemy. So Sauron was loyal to Morgoth til the very end. |
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#3 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,490
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If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways. Even you would not call that "staying loyal". I'm afraid it is you who does not understand what loyalty means. If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself. He followed Morgoth because this service allowed him to rise and to have quite a large chunk of power. He did not actively, physically betray Morgoth, but he would not have died for Morgoth's sake either - which true and strong loyalty does mean. In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No! He named himself Lord in his own right and whatever. After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet. So quit the wikipedia campaign.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#4 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you. Quote:
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![]() AS IF...as I said not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth, he had no other choice but to act on his own in the 2nd and 3rd ages since morgoth was not in the world. Like I don't get how you can go from.... War of Wrath (Morgoth Sauron defeated) Morgoth thrown out of the world and chained Sauron loose Messes around with the children NOT LOYAL??? Your logic is clearly flawed... |
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#5 | ||||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Sauron did not go down the path of evil for the sake of evil, but out of a love of order (quoted earlier) which was repeatedly perverted to a lust for power. Professor Tolkien also makes this comment in the letter which is included in the Preface to the Second Edition of The Silmarillion: Quote:
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#6 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alqualondė
Posts: 31
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how do the Forces of Evil in Arda (like 'Mairon', like Melkor) accomplish their goals to overthrow the One via language and the categorizing meanings of linguistic Thought categories, would you say? How are both these wayward entities doing so in the First, Second, Third, or any Age, without their specific physical presences?
do you think the hierarchy of authority in the Spiritual world reflects also a hierarchy of knowledge production? Maybe that is why Sauron will service Melkor at the End (even though we all know they lose), because none of Sauron's efforts will be able to best Melkor (isn't that precisely why the Valar are made different in innate power from Maiar? aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?
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#7 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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As for Morgoth, I know Professor Tolkien mused upon but ultimately rejected the idea of "Melkian" languages from which the Black Speech and other dark tongues derived, but what strikes me most about Morgoth is how often he is described as a liar, and a liar to himself as well as to others. From Valaquenta: Quote:
Just a few ideas that might be relevant. |
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