Taters to Taters - II

[Nogrod]

Legate: are you seriously arguing that the dwelling of the dead (Mandos) or the primordial state of non-existence (The Void) are not classics?

Mandos even fits the classic tradition of literary mythology having many facets copied straight from the myth of Hades (like the important god running the place with his wife, the place not being good or evil but neutral etc.). Soo classic!

The Void as well - even if it doesn't have a one as well known classical piece of literary art from which to stem from - is both as widely spread throughout the world-mythologies, referred to in classical literature, and just soo awesome!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Legate: are you seriously arguing that the dwelling of the dead (Mandos) or the primordial state of non-existence (The Void) are not classics?

Mandos even fits the classic tradition of literary mythology having many facets copied straight from the myth of Hades (like the important god running the place with his wife, the place not being good or evil but neutral etc.). Soo classic!

The Void as well - even if it doesn't have a one as well known classical piece of literary art from which to stem from - is both as widely spread throughout the world-mythologies, referred to in classical literature, and just soo awesome!

The Void is Void. I have no problem with that, but it is rather... lame. It's empty, after all.

I would not argue against Mandos as the place. However, Mandos, at least in this case, is not a dwelling. The dwelling is Halls of Mandos. Mandos is the Vala (however it should be named "Námo", but I guess that's omitment on Boro's part). But trust me, this is the person, not the dwelling.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Void is Void. I have no problem with that, but it is rather... lame. It's empty, after all.

Sad there is no "like"-button at the 'Downs. I'd definitively push it for this.

I would not argue against Mandos as the place. However, Mandos, at least in this case, is not a dwelling. The dwelling is Halls of Mandos. Mandos is the Vala (however it should be named "Námo", but I guess that's omitment on Boro's part). But trust me, this is the person, not the dwelling.

Well... I'm not sure you are in position to judge whether "Mandos" here is or is not the dwelling. That I think is Lommy's job.

And like you say: the god is Námo, not Mandos - as Mandos is the place. So there are better reasons to judge it as the place than as the god (and if someone happens to have some related taters in their hands, well it is not the bussiness of this round to talk about them - or anyone to reveal their taters before they are played and the round is over... ).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyway, for that matter, back to the main discussion - I don't see why the assumption seems to be that "classic" equals "classic in real-world mythology". I think "classic in Middle-Earth mythology" is equally appropriate, if not more. That's why the Last Alliance, the Doom of Mandos, Noldor, even Gandalf or Elendil the Tall, or in my argument Gorgoroth, seem much more valid to me than any of the rest.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't see why the assumption seems to be that "classic" equals "classic in real-world mythology". I think "classic in Middle-Earth mythology" is equally appropriate, if not more.

I guess that again is for Lommy to decide.

I can push my interpretation and you can push yours. She decides.

And continuing of doing just that:

I think that the word classic fits far better to things that are in the ME but still have all this classicality of our real-world tradition behind them, they are like "living instances" of the classical things, concepts, places, tales... maybe even persons.

To me it's harder to see what a ME-mythology classic would be with such little to go for... I mean we don't know what tales the easterlings told to their children, on what places or events the Haradian poets wrote about... which were the canonical myths of the first age men and were they given over to the second and third age generations and how can you track a trace of it in the fourth-age Gondorian song for a feast?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I guess that again is for Lommy to decide.

I can push my interpretation and you can push yours. She decides.

Sure. What do you think we are doing all the time? I think that goes without saying

To me it's harder to see what a ME-mythology classic would be with such little to go for... I mean we don't know what tales the easterlings told to their children, on what places or events the Haradian poets wrote about... which were the canonical myths of the first age men and were they given over to the second and third age generations and how can you track a trace of it in the fourth-age Gondorian song for a feast?

Sure. But then again, we of course have some vague idea of what is "classic" in the "West-Middleearthian" concept (all the tales we know from the books). And when you say that we do not know what the Easterlings were telling their kids, this could be countered with saying that our real-world concept of "classic" (as we present ones are more or less coming from the cultural context stemming from the European civilisation) is born with the same flaw. I believe you would agree if I say that we consider classic the concepts present in especially Greek and Roman mythology, with a bit of Near-Eastern flavor especially due to the influence of Christianity etc., then various other native European (Germanic, Scandinavian, Slavic...) mythology concepts. But we probably don't find the concepts found in, say, Native American or African mythology to be "classic", unless they happen to be close to "ours".

So much for the meta-discussion

As for Lommy's musings, if I were to choose one of even the "lesser ones", I still consider Noldor pretty nice. Out of the two big ones, I would probably prefer the Doom of Mandos to the Last Alliance, simply because it has all the big tragic elements with fate and doom - and maybe a hint of timelessness can be seen in the original power of the curse. Or maybe it is because about the Last Alliance, we do not know as much, in fact, as about this one.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

we of course have some vague idea of what is "classic" in the "West-Middleearthian" concept (all the tales we know from the books). And when you say that we do not know what the Easterlings were telling their kids, this could be countered with saying that our real-world concept of "classic" (as we present ones are more or less coming from the cultural context stemming from the European civilisation) is born with the same flaw. I believe you would agree if I say that we consider classic the concepts present in especially Greek and Roman mythology, with a bit of Near-Eastern flavor especially due to the influence of Christianity etc., then various other native European (Germanic, Scandinavian, Slavic...) mythology concepts. But we probably don't find the concepts found in, say, Native American or African mythology to be "classic", unless they happen to be close to "ours".

I actually do agree with you. But I had to try and present a different interpretation to help my tater succeed... which was clearly doomed to fail as Lommy didn't think my tater to be a good pick in anycase, whichever the major interpretation.

That said, I actually agree with you and Lommy that the Doom of Mandos is a better suiting candidate for the classic - while also agreeing the Last Alliance to be a good one as well.

[Thinlómien]

I'm not impressed by

Taniquetil, Gorgoroth - might be classic, but two of the few places in Arda I never felt any kind of fondness of. There could be an argument made for Taniquetil being "timeless" but that's a bit lame pun (Maedhros being handy was much better!)
The Void - wouldn't something like "empty" have fit this one better?
Samwise Gamgee - okay, he is the classic hero in a way, and he has become a classic character in his own right, but... Just calling Sam a classic would sound somehow derogatory, and he never was a favourite of mine anyway.
Gandalf the White - I feel that the specification that it's Gandalf THE WHITE quite effectively disqualifies all the arguments you could make. Gandalf as a whole might be timeless or classic. And as for "vintage" - despite the fact that applying the word to Gandalf does amuse me - that would be a much better description of Gandalf the Grey.


I kind of like

The Noldor - theirs is a classic story, and they are, as immortal Elves, pretty timeless. Also, for me they would be a classic favourite people in Arda. But still, not as good a red tater as some.
Galadriel, Elendil the Tall, Mandos - if you've got to call a character classic, here's a few notable choices. Galadriel, my and many other people's classic favourite character. Also, on the Third Age she's one of the few classic (or timeless or vintage ) characters that remain from the earlier ages. Elendil, who was so epic that no one after him was given the same name even though we have a host of Berens, Túrins and Tuors in the later days? Definitely a classic (but no a classic name, har har). And Mandos is quite a classic character and timeless (although I believe it's the Halls of Mandos that are described as timeless and would thus be more appropriate). Stilln none of these are as good as tmy two favourites.


My favourites

The Last Alliance - the classic tale indeed, and what a classic tale it is in the time of the Lord of the Rings, it is the epic story that is told and referred to, the story in which the whole story of the Ring is rooted, something which was classic in its own time because in the good old times the Elves and the Men used to be allies. I like this one a lot.
Doom of Mandos - an even more classic tale (hey come on how much more classic can you get than the tale of original sin?). However, I think the Doom of Mandos ended up being a little less definitive and timeless than it was supposed to be. In any case I like this one, and as a story I personally prefer it to the military and pompous Last Alliance.


Hard times. Wavering between the two... (but will consider arguments for others too, but they'd better be pretty darn good). Won't be making my choice until in a few hours so feel free to argue!



edit: xed with two people who almost remind me of Monty Python!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well... I'm not sure you are in position to judge whether "Mandos" here is or is not the dwelling. That I think is Lommy's job.

I thought all the time it's the vala, but I guess it could be either. Even the normal Apples to Apples cards have stuff with several meanings in them, so I see no need to argue about meanings here! Anyway, it doesn't make a difference really, because there are still better taters around.

Originally Posted by Legate

I don't see why the assumption seems to be that "classic" equals "classic in real-world mythology". I think "classic in Middle-Earth mythology" is equally appropriate, if not more.

I think both ways of looking at it are equally appropriate, just as is looking at it from the perpective of what is classic to me personally. Funny, I don't think there'd be such an argument over the definition of the word if the green tater was, say... "funny."

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Funny, I don't think there'd be such an argument over the definition of the word if the green tater was, say... "funny."

We actually might have arranged it... if we would hope to thusly aid our own candidate to come nearer picking by the judge. Something we clearly fell short this time.