Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Manwe did not deal with Ar-pharazon the Golden, Eru did.

Fair point.

As for Glorfindel the enhanced, we know very little about the extent of his puissance post-return. Would he stand shoulder to shoulder with some of the great of the first-age? Surely. Yet none of those managed to defeat a Balrog without, themselves, dying.

With regards to Glaurung, and Melian's quote for example, do you suppose she included Morgoth in that estimation, or Sauron? I suspect she was meaning amongst those who might be expected to combat him. Melian's own power does not lie in combat, but rather preservation. Nonetheless the death of Glaurung does not claim that of his slayer (no matter how he died.)

As for Aragorn and Boromir. Well in terms of the thousands on the battle-field, Aragorn was bringing a tiny force. The Eorlingas were facing certain defeat, and yet Aragorn and a relatively very small force, totally reverse the situation.

As for Boromir, I would argue that he simply wasn't possessed of elder blood strong enough to be receptive to an ancient power such as the balrog.

As for the death of Sauron, though ultimately not in the final publicaiton Isildur was quote saying, "Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?" I suspect removed as it would render Isildur in a very petty light.

We know much lore is lost to the Dwarves by this time: they didn't know what a Balrog was for example :P Further Telchar was the greatest smith ever, and even then not the ultimate equal of say Feanor. He is a producer of masterworks. Not all dwarf smiths are even close to his equal.

Hurin and Feanor? Feanor outdistanced most of his army and his sons and had 'few' about him (no cadre of bodyguards - you don't think his sons would have kept up if it was easy for bodyguards?) Feanor was essentially combatting a host of Balrogs single handed.

Hurin, Gothmog put in the effort he had to, no more no less. The Balrogs felt it essential to come against Feanor personally, Hurin - not so much.


It's possible a similar wound from a similar blade would have killed Gothmog, and yet his ultimate death required Ecthelion to die himself, both arms broken, causing Gothmog the double-threat of impaling and drowning. I suspect water to a fire spirit might have been the more fel wound.

What makes you think Melian is so puissant? Why would she have extensive combat powers?

Further not all Balrogs are equal I imagine BUT I go to your own assertion of having the right 'skill set.' Glaurung was bred to be the ideal weapon of Morgoth against the free-peoples of Middle-Earth. There is no implication for example that Balrogs are generally capable of much in the way of speech or cunning thought etc. They are pretty brute-like a great deal of the time. Gothmog didn't exactly do a superb job leading armies now did he? Thus Glaurung was needed.

All the same Turin was easily fooled by the arts of Glaurung, and his sister utterly swayed. As for Hurin, Morgoth wanted him to suffer, or willingly turn.

I doubt that Luthien would have been making any Silmarils in her spare time. Further when she died she didn't do a 'Yoda.'

Fighting the Balrog would not be needless and I never implied the Wise would fight him alone. Just like when they attacked and drove off Sauron it would be a combined effort. The White Council that drove the Necromance, even if Sauron desired, out of Mirkwood would defeat the Balrog.

They didn't exactly do a great job with Sauron from all accounts. I'm still curious as to why you think the Wise would abandon all their other duties ie guarding Lothlorien, Rivendell, the Havens, marshalling the people against Sauron: to go on a needless jaunt into the bowels of Moria to fight some ancient evil. It was contained where it was, why seek extra peril?

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

I'm still curious as to why you think the Wise would abandon all their other duties ie guarding Lothlorien, Rivendell, the Havens, marshalling the people against Sauron: to go on a needless jaunt into the bowels of Moria to fight some ancient evil. It was contained where it was, why seek extra peril?

The reason may be that a Balrog can one day leave Moria. While Sauron was absent, the Balrog had a potency to become a new Dark Lord. With Sauron back, both perspectives of Sauron subduing the Balrog or the Balrog obtaining The Ring were equally perilous.

However the nature of Durin's Bane was not discovered until the Company arrived and as it had never left Moria, no-one actually wanted to investigate the matter up to that time. Only some dwarves but they had failed to publish their findings

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

However the nature of Durin's Bane was not discovered until the Company arrived and as it had never left Moria, no-one actually wanted to investigate the matter up to that time. Only some dwarves but they had failed to publish their findings

Aye. The peer review process can be harsh.

[Ulvenok]

As someone said earlier, I don't really think strength plays much into it but more the individual's spirit and will. Like for example I'm sure Galadriel wasn't physically capable to kill one of the massive uruk hai. But her spirit is so potent that she would be able to defeat one in some way. Same goes for Frodo and Sam in my opinion, they made it all to mount doom. Something even the strongest warrior would be unable to do. Didn't they say at the council of elrond that even Glorfindel would be unable to walk into mordor, yet Frodo and Sam did and defeated many mighty foes on there way there like Shelob for example.

Also on the balrog's I think in the actual book and not the popular peter jackson version. Balrogs are actually near human sized, maybe a bit larger. Think of them as opposite to angels. Having a fallen angel fight a dragon like Glaurug would sure be interesting. I think it depends on the individual dragon, Smaug I think would have problem with a Balrog. Glaurung maybe not so much...

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Also on the balrog's I think in the actual book and not the popular peter jackson version. Balrogs are actually near human sized, maybe a bit larger. Think of them as opposite to angels. Having a fallen angel fight a dragon like Glaurug would sure be interesting. I think it depends on the individual dragon, Smaug I think would have problem with a Balrog. Glaurung maybe not so much...

Well, as Melkor's demons of battle these fallen Maiar were probably unmatched fighters in ME and even Sauron would have experienced a life threat fighting one of them in one-to-one combat (as it would've been the case if they would have led hosts of comparable size and skill against each other). I am sure any dragon would have quite a problem facing Balrog and vice versa. The size of the natural body in this case is not as important as wielding appropriate weapons. Dragons were individual fighters but possessed mighty weapons of distant fight and mass destruction. However, Balrogs were able to control fire in some way and I have little idea who would prevail if a Balrog had had to encounter a fire drake. As for cold drakes, that's again a very difficult question of a different kind. We simply have no instances of such situations...

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

As someone said earlier, I don't really think strength plays much into it but more the individual's spirit and will. Like for example I'm sure Galadriel wasn't physically capable to kill one of the massive uruk hai.

Galadriel is 6'4 tall, and I quote, "a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."

Galadriel would barely notice any orc, whilst she was pulling its head off for fun. Galadriel is the scariest elf left in Middle Earth, bar none, and that includes Glorfindel.

[Tronin]

It's been some years since I visited here (it was in a different guise at that time, I believe) and my knowledge of HOME has faded somewhat, so my apologies for any inaccuracies that may afflict my recollections. Regarding a few points that have arisen in this discussion:

I recall JRRT mentioning (in Letters, or was it UT?) that Galadriel could be considered the equal of Feanor, albeit differently endowed. I don't believe that she would be a match for a Balrog at all in single combat. However, I feel her power against such a foe would be in staying it's influence or say in countering the fear that it causes, rather than trading blows, be they physical or 'magical'.

Glorfindel would be loathe to face a Balrog again, even after his 'resurrection' and purification/'powering up' by the Valar. It is by no means certain that he could defeat such a foe a second time. There was along with his skill and courage an element of luck in his battle during the escape from Gondolin, the fall also contributing to his opponent's demise, if I recall correctly.

Gandalf, also a Maia but wielding both Glamdring and Narya would have the best chance of the Wise of defeating a Balrog, I believe. And yet in doing so was himself destroyed. Saruman may well have been the leader of Istari, and as the White more "powerful" but like Gandalf was still not of a form that could manifest all his incarnate power. Not only did he lack the weapons (Ring and ancient sword) for such a fight, I hold that he lacked the courage and resolve as well: with the change that came over Saruman over the years, I believe he would have flinched at the end and not been willing to make the necessary sacrifice of himself in order to destroy the Balrog.

Whilst I don't think that Durin's Bane was "skulking" in the depths of Khazad-Dum, it didn't confront the dwarves directly probably until Durin himself went in search of it. The passages of the deep mines really would not be conducive for a mass confrontation, being the perfect environment for it to pick off mining groups, and subsequent parties investigating the losses, then smaller military groups that followed. In this sense I can see the early conflict becomes somewhat reminiscent of the Alien movies, but once the losses mounted, evidently Durin took it upon himself to face the menace to his people. Even so after Durin's death, the dwarves under Nain battled for another year, no doubt devising all manner of plans to use their home environment to their advantage, trying to drop thousands of tons of rock upon it, trying to seal it off and so forth - it was never 10 thousand dwarves facing the one foe at any single time.

Similar to some others here, my impression of Elladan and Elrohir has always been over the last 30 years of reading JRRT that whilst they were still lords in their own right, they were closer in power/ability to the Kings/Cheiftans of the Dunedain than the elf-lords of olde. Of course as the Sons of Elrond they were possessed of an unequalled bloodline, yet they were born in an age when the power of the Eldar was on the wane, their foes were of a lesser kind than that faced by their forebears. Contributing to the impression they (potentially, in the rejected text mentioned) made upon Eorl's folk would have been the latter's superstitious nature and lack of contact with the Eldar, I think.

Enough for now. 'Night!

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Tronin

It's been some years since I visited here (it was in a different guise at that time, I believe) and my knowledge of HOME has faded somewhat, so my apologies for any inaccuracies that may afflict my recollections. Regarding a few points that have arisen in this discussion:

I recall JRRT mentioning (in Letters, or was it UT?) that Galadriel could be considered the equal of Feanor, albeit differently endowed. I don't believe that she would be a match for a Balrog at all in single combat. However, I feel her power against such a foe would be in staying it's influence or say in countering the fear that it causes, rather than trading blows, be they physical or 'magical'.

Galadriel was a match for the athletes of the Noldor. There is no reason to think she would not be able to fight a Balrog for at least a little while. If the Wise were going to fight a Balrog then I doubt they would need to counter the fear. Aragorn and Boromir were fully prepared to face Durin's Bane.

Glorfindel would be loathe to face a Balrog again, even after his 'resurrection' and purification/'powering up' by the Valar. It is by no means certain that he could defeat such a foe a second time. There was along with his skill and courage an element of luck in his battle during the escape from Gondolin, the fall also contributing to his opponent's demise, if I recall correctly.

In the original story all the luck was on the Balrog's part, being able to grab onto Glorfindel's hair as he fell. Tolkien did note he would have to rewrite the story. If Glorfindel was enough to defeat a Balrog prior to his power up, why would his chances decrease when he was greatly enhanced?

Gandalf, also a Maia but wielding both Glamdring and Narya would have the best chance of the Wise of defeating a Balrog, I believe. And yet in doing so was himself destroyed. Saruman may well have been the leader of Istari, and as the White more "powerful" but like Gandalf was still not of a form that could manifest all his incarnate power. Not only did he lack the weapons (Ring and ancient sword) for such a fight, I hold that he lacked the courage and resolve as well: with the change that came over Saruman over the years, I believe he would have flinched at the end and not been willing to make the necessary sacrifice of himself in order to destroy the Balrog.

I did change for the worst, but he was still prepared to launch an assault on Sauron. It was mostly thanks to him that Sauron was driven out.

Similar to some others here, my impression of Elladan and Elrohir has always been over the last 30 years of reading JRRT that whilst they were still lords in their own right, they were closer in power/ability to the Kings/Cheiftans of the Dunedain than the elf-lords of olde. Of course as the Sons of Elrond they were possessed of an unequalled bloodline, yet they were born in an age when the power of the Eldar was on the wane, their foes were of a lesser kind than that faced by their forebears. Contributing to the impression they (potentially, in the rejected text mentioned) made upon Eorl's folk would have been the latter's superstitious nature and lack of contact with the Eldar, I think.

Enough for now. 'Night!

The early Kings/princes of Arnor included the likes of Elendil and Elendur. Elendil was similar in power to the elf lords of old as was by all accounts Ar-pharazon.

Legolas certainly seems impressed with them to suggest they compare favourably to the Elf Lords he saw in Rivendell. At the Battle of the Black Gates, Gandalf does say there are names there worth more than numbers alone and the Sons of Elrond do stand where the assault was going to most fierce. They directly stand opposite the Black Gate and survive the battle. I don't seem them being lesser in power than Arwen and she seems to be regarded as one of the more powerful elves.

Then there's still Elrond, Cirdan and Celeborn. Elrond prior to the third age seemed to have the most battle experience out of any surviving elf, except Cirdan.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The reason may be that a Balrog can one day leave Moria. While Sauron was absent, the Balrog had a potency to become a new Dark Lord. With Sauron back, both perspectives of Sauron subduing the Balrog or the Balrog obtaining The Ring were equally perilous.

However the nature of Durin's Bane was not discovered until the Company arrived and as it had never left Moria, no-one actually wanted to investigate the matter up to that time. Only some dwarves but they had failed to publish their findings

I still don't like the idea of the dwarves seing the balrog but the word not getting around...

1: It would be an extremely hot topic to talk about - all the surviving dwarves would have spread the story and it would just get so big people would know it. A balrog mowing down 20 000 dwarves - this MUST become a common legend.

Thus is makes more sense to me they didnt see it, since there's no legend.

The legend we have that something powerfull of an unspecified nature drove off the dwarves fits the Alien-scenario perfectly.

2: I also imagine the dwarves would want to seek help to drive it off and to get Moria back, much as Thorin did with the lonely mountain,

I don't like the current version where they just gave up Moria and shrugged it off.

It would be an obvious course to go to the Wise with a description of it and ask them for advice on how to kill it - and I think someone did it at some point.

In the version where they got mowed down by the balrog attacking them head on the Wise would recognize the balrog (or a high probability it was a balrog) - and they would have done something. They would AT LEAST least have told Gandalf about it, Aragorn also probably - and most likely they would have DONE something, Maybe not go and kill it as was discussed in the thread since it seemed hapoy to stay put in Moria anyway. But at least they would have kept a watch on it to make sure it stayed put, maybe seal or Moria - that sort of thing. It would be on Elrond's radar. It's a very very big threat so I don't think either they would just shrug it off and think never mind.

In the "alien" version they have nothing better to ask for than help with an "unknown monster" - it makes sense for me that the Wise would not consider it "their board" - the "unknown monster" is not important for general ME security so the dwarves would be sent away empty-handed with no help forthcoming

And this leads nicely to the storyline with everyone knowing theres probably "something" big and bad in Moria that killed a whole lot of dwarves on it's own - but noone is motivated to go and kill it.