Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[Ulvenok]

As someone said earlier, I don't really think strength plays much into it but more the individual's spirit and will. Like for example I'm sure Galadriel wasn't physically capable to kill one of the massive uruk hai. But her spirit is so potent that she would be able to defeat one in some way. Same goes for Frodo and Sam in my opinion, they made it all to mount doom. Something even the strongest warrior would be unable to do. Didn't they say at the council of elrond that even Glorfindel would be unable to walk into mordor, yet Frodo and Sam did and defeated many mighty foes on there way there like Shelob for example.

Also on the balrog's I think in the actual book and not the popular peter jackson version. Balrogs are actually near human sized, maybe a bit larger. Think of them as opposite to angels. Having a fallen angel fight a dragon like Glaurug would sure be interesting. I think it depends on the individual dragon, Smaug I think would have problem with a Balrog. Glaurung maybe not so much...

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Also on the balrog's I think in the actual book and not the popular peter jackson version. Balrogs are actually near human sized, maybe a bit larger. Think of them as opposite to angels. Having a fallen angel fight a dragon like Glaurug would sure be interesting. I think it depends on the individual dragon, Smaug I think would have problem with a Balrog. Glaurung maybe not so much...

Well, as Melkor's demons of battle these fallen Maiar were probably unmatched fighters in ME and even Sauron would have experienced a life threat fighting one of them in one-to-one combat (as it would've been the case if they would have led hosts of comparable size and skill against each other). I am sure any dragon would have quite a problem facing Balrog and vice versa. The size of the natural body in this case is not as important as wielding appropriate weapons. Dragons were individual fighters but possessed mighty weapons of distant fight and mass destruction. However, Balrogs were able to control fire in some way and I have little idea who would prevail if a Balrog had had to encounter a fire drake. As for cold drakes, that's again a very difficult question of a different kind. We simply have no instances of such situations...

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

As someone said earlier, I don't really think strength plays much into it but more the individual's spirit and will. Like for example I'm sure Galadriel wasn't physically capable to kill one of the massive uruk hai.

Galadriel is 6'4 tall, and I quote, "a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."

Galadriel would barely notice any orc, whilst she was pulling its head off for fun. Galadriel is the scariest elf left in Middle Earth, bar none, and that includes Glorfindel.

[Tronin]

It's been some years since I visited here (it was in a different guise at that time, I believe) and my knowledge of HOME has faded somewhat, so my apologies for any inaccuracies that may afflict my recollections. Regarding a few points that have arisen in this discussion:

I recall JRRT mentioning (in Letters, or was it UT?) that Galadriel could be considered the equal of Feanor, albeit differently endowed. I don't believe that she would be a match for a Balrog at all in single combat. However, I feel her power against such a foe would be in staying it's influence or say in countering the fear that it causes, rather than trading blows, be they physical or 'magical'.

Glorfindel would be loathe to face a Balrog again, even after his 'resurrection' and purification/'powering up' by the Valar. It is by no means certain that he could defeat such a foe a second time. There was along with his skill and courage an element of luck in his battle during the escape from Gondolin, the fall also contributing to his opponent's demise, if I recall correctly.

Gandalf, also a Maia but wielding both Glamdring and Narya would have the best chance of the Wise of defeating a Balrog, I believe. And yet in doing so was himself destroyed. Saruman may well have been the leader of Istari, and as the White more "powerful" but like Gandalf was still not of a form that could manifest all his incarnate power. Not only did he lack the weapons (Ring and ancient sword) for such a fight, I hold that he lacked the courage and resolve as well: with the change that came over Saruman over the years, I believe he would have flinched at the end and not been willing to make the necessary sacrifice of himself in order to destroy the Balrog.

Whilst I don't think that Durin's Bane was "skulking" in the depths of Khazad-Dum, it didn't confront the dwarves directly probably until Durin himself went in search of it. The passages of the deep mines really would not be conducive for a mass confrontation, being the perfect environment for it to pick off mining groups, and subsequent parties investigating the losses, then smaller military groups that followed. In this sense I can see the early conflict becomes somewhat reminiscent of the Alien movies, but once the losses mounted, evidently Durin took it upon himself to face the menace to his people. Even so after Durin's death, the dwarves under Nain battled for another year, no doubt devising all manner of plans to use their home environment to their advantage, trying to drop thousands of tons of rock upon it, trying to seal it off and so forth - it was never 10 thousand dwarves facing the one foe at any single time.

Similar to some others here, my impression of Elladan and Elrohir has always been over the last 30 years of reading JRRT that whilst they were still lords in their own right, they were closer in power/ability to the Kings/Cheiftans of the Dunedain than the elf-lords of olde. Of course as the Sons of Elrond they were possessed of an unequalled bloodline, yet they were born in an age when the power of the Eldar was on the wane, their foes were of a lesser kind than that faced by their forebears. Contributing to the impression they (potentially, in the rejected text mentioned) made upon Eorl's folk would have been the latter's superstitious nature and lack of contact with the Eldar, I think.

Enough for now. 'Night!

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Tronin

It's been some years since I visited here (it was in a different guise at that time, I believe) and my knowledge of HOME has faded somewhat, so my apologies for any inaccuracies that may afflict my recollections. Regarding a few points that have arisen in this discussion:

I recall JRRT mentioning (in Letters, or was it UT?) that Galadriel could be considered the equal of Feanor, albeit differently endowed. I don't believe that she would be a match for a Balrog at all in single combat. However, I feel her power against such a foe would be in staying it's influence or say in countering the fear that it causes, rather than trading blows, be they physical or 'magical'.

Galadriel was a match for the athletes of the Noldor. There is no reason to think she would not be able to fight a Balrog for at least a little while. If the Wise were going to fight a Balrog then I doubt they would need to counter the fear. Aragorn and Boromir were fully prepared to face Durin's Bane.

Glorfindel would be loathe to face a Balrog again, even after his 'resurrection' and purification/'powering up' by the Valar. It is by no means certain that he could defeat such a foe a second time. There was along with his skill and courage an element of luck in his battle during the escape from Gondolin, the fall also contributing to his opponent's demise, if I recall correctly.

In the original story all the luck was on the Balrog's part, being able to grab onto Glorfindel's hair as he fell. Tolkien did note he would have to rewrite the story. If Glorfindel was enough to defeat a Balrog prior to his power up, why would his chances decrease when he was greatly enhanced?

Gandalf, also a Maia but wielding both Glamdring and Narya would have the best chance of the Wise of defeating a Balrog, I believe. And yet in doing so was himself destroyed. Saruman may well have been the leader of Istari, and as the White more "powerful" but like Gandalf was still not of a form that could manifest all his incarnate power. Not only did he lack the weapons (Ring and ancient sword) for such a fight, I hold that he lacked the courage and resolve as well: with the change that came over Saruman over the years, I believe he would have flinched at the end and not been willing to make the necessary sacrifice of himself in order to destroy the Balrog.

I did change for the worst, but he was still prepared to launch an assault on Sauron. It was mostly thanks to him that Sauron was driven out.

Similar to some others here, my impression of Elladan and Elrohir has always been over the last 30 years of reading JRRT that whilst they were still lords in their own right, they were closer in power/ability to the Kings/Cheiftans of the Dunedain than the elf-lords of olde. Of course as the Sons of Elrond they were possessed of an unequalled bloodline, yet they were born in an age when the power of the Eldar was on the wane, their foes were of a lesser kind than that faced by their forebears. Contributing to the impression they (potentially, in the rejected text mentioned) made upon Eorl's folk would have been the latter's superstitious nature and lack of contact with the Eldar, I think.

Enough for now. 'Night!

The early Kings/princes of Arnor included the likes of Elendil and Elendur. Elendil was similar in power to the elf lords of old as was by all accounts Ar-pharazon.

Legolas certainly seems impressed with them to suggest they compare favourably to the Elf Lords he saw in Rivendell. At the Battle of the Black Gates, Gandalf does say there are names there worth more than numbers alone and the Sons of Elrond do stand where the assault was going to most fierce. They directly stand opposite the Black Gate and survive the battle. I don't seem them being lesser in power than Arwen and she seems to be regarded as one of the more powerful elves.

Then there's still Elrond, Cirdan and Celeborn. Elrond prior to the third age seemed to have the most battle experience out of any surviving elf, except Cirdan.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond prior to the third age seemed to have the most battle experience out of any surviving elf, except Cirdan.

Not necessarily: Elrond was of course too young to have fought during the First Age, and while in the Second he did lead an army in the First War of the Rings (which was forced back to Rivendell), during the Siege of Barad-dur and the final battle on Orodruin he served as a herald, i.e. a noncombatant. In the Third Age, the only recorded fighting by the forces of Imladris was at Fornost, and Elrond delegated that command to Glorfindel.

By contrast, Glorfindel besides fighting in the sack of Gondolin and its aftermath almost certainly participated in the Nirnaeth; and I would submit in the Dagor Lammoth and the Dagor Aglareb as well, since according to Gandalf he had "dwelt in the Blessed Realm" and thus was one who crossed the Helcaraxe (and moreover as a Lord of Gondolin would, one assume, be an elder/senior member of Turgon's following). Depending on which version of his re-arrival one accepts, he also would almost certainly have served under Elrond in the defense of Eriador, and would have been present at the first overthrow of Sauron as an actual combatant.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Not necessarily: Elrond was of course too young to have fought during the First Age, and while in the Second he did lead an army in the First War of the Rings (which was forced back to Rivendell), during the Siege of Barad-dur and the final battle on Orodruin he served as a herald, i.e. a noncombatant. In the Third Age, the only recorded fighting by the forces of Imladris was at Fornost, and Elrond delegated that command to Glorfindel.

By contrast, Glorfindel besides fighting in the sack of Gondolin and its aftermath almost certainly participated in the Nirnaeth; and I would submit in the Dagor Lammoth and the Dagor Aglareb as well, since according to Gandalf he had "dwelt in the Blessed Realm" and thus was one who crossed the Helcaraxe (and moreover as a Lord of Gondolin would, one assume, be an elder/senior member of Turgon's following). Depending on which version of his re-arrival one accepts, he also would almost certainly have served under Elrond in the defense of Eriador, and would have been present at the first overthrow of Sauron as an actual combatant.

In the case of Glorfindell it really does depend on when he returned to Middle Earth. If it was during the Second Age then he would have had the most experience.

Elrond was not too young to fight in the First Age. The evidence suggest that he and Elros lead the Edain during the War of Wrath.

Where do you get the information that Elrond was a non combatant in the Last Alliance? Eonwe was Manwe's herald, but he led the forces in the War of Wrath. I would imagine that Elrond had a similar role. Then throughout the Second Age he was the chief military commander against Sauron. That is a lot of experience leading armies and therefore it is interesting in the Third Age he no longer goes to war.

[Tronin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel was a match for the athletes of the Noldor. There is no reason to think she would not be able to fight a Balrog for at least a little while.

We know she was a great athlete, however athletic ability (and training) is no guarantee whatsoever of combative ability.

There is only one sentence that I've come across that could give any credence to the notion that she could wield a weapon of any sort and that is in the late note written by Tolkien (published in UT) that says she and Celeborn 'fought heroically' in defence of the Teleri at Alqualonde.

Even accepting that revision to her story, it is an extremely long bow to draw to say that she could stand against a Balrog in melee. There were ample opportunities in her history for Tolkien to mention any fighting ability/prowess/experience, yet there is no mention of her presence in the War of The Elves and Sauron (Eregion) or at the Dagorlad/Orodruin. Even in the White Council's move to oust the Necromancer from Dol Guldur, in which Sauron willingly fell back to Mordor, there is no mention of a combative role for Galadriel.

I would hazard that someone like Aradhel seems more pre-disposed to this kind of physical expression of "power", and this discussion seems to me to be a bit of a D&D-ification of Galadriel. We should perhaps agree to disagree.

In the original story all the luck was on the Balrog's part, being able to grab onto Glorfindel's hair as he fell. Tolkien did note he would have to rewrite the story. If Glorfindel was enough to defeat a Balrog prior to his power up, why would his chances decrease when he was greatly enhanced?

In the original story Balrogs were far more numerous and less formidable individually than what they became later in the development of the mythology.

It was nothing short of an epic and remarkable feat for Glorfindel to overcome a Balrog. If he was so powerful that defeating such a foe was any less than an epic achievement then the duel wouldn't hold as special a place in elven folklore as it does, with the many songs sung of it.

Hence I don't believe that if Glorfindel, even though his later spiritual power approached that of a Maia, went toe to toe with a Balrog a second time that he would be certain of winning. He may well have a better chance than his first encounter, but it would still be perilous for him.

I did change for the worst, but he was still prepared to launch an assault on Sauron. It was mostly thanks to him that Sauron was driven out.

At that time Sauron was still not yet fully recovered, and if I recall correctly didn't Gandalf say that Sauron had long planned that retreat, hence avoiding a true confrontation?

Saruman may have been nominally the highest of his order, but Gandalf was not necessarily lesser than Saruman, as implied by Varda in UT. Gandalf also wielded weapons extremely suitable for the encounter, the like of which Saruman could neither obtain nor forge for himself.

The early Kings/princes of Arnor included the likes of Elendil and Elendur. Elendil was similar in power to the elf lords of old as was by all accounts Ar-pharazon.

By all accounts? Can you cite one of these accounts for me? I've read Akallabeth and POME once again, but can't find anything like this.

Ar-Pharazon may have been the greatest of the Numenoreans, but for me that doesn't put him up near the progeny of Finwe and their ilk, who are yet another order of elf lords above other elf lords.

Elendil may have approached being an equal with Gil-Galad, yet Gil-Galad as valiant and heroic as he is, pales against his forefathers.

Legolas certainly seems impressed with them to suggest they compare favourably to the Elf Lords he saw in Rivendell. At the Battle of the Black Gates, Gandalf does say there are names there worth more than numbers alone and the Sons of Elrond do stand where the assault was going to most fierce. They directly stand opposite the Black Gate and survive the battle.

I don't mean to gainsay the standing of the Sons of Elrond, they are indeed "elf lords" in their own right, as well as due to their birth. Elladan and Elrohir did deserve the praise Gandalf gave them, and the respect that Legolas afforded them. But simply put, there are 'elf lords' and there are 'elf lords'.

There can be no question that the power of the Eldar faded as the ages passed, however. I see the brothers as products of the Third Age: whilst there was still evil incarnate in the world, it was of a number of orders of potency removed from that which existed in the First Age.

I don't seem them being lesser in power than Arwen and she seems to be regarded as one of the more powerful elves.

Powerful? Arwen never struck me as powerful. Her "power" lay in the wisdom, lore and foresight of the Eldar that she possessed, but not manifest in the same manner say as the "power" of Galadriel, and especially not in the manner of Elladan and Elrohir.

Elrond was not too young to fight in the First Age. The evidence suggest that he and Elros lead the Edain during the War of Wrath.

They were young children when the Sons of Feanor attacked the community at the mouths of Sirion. They would have come of age during the War of Wrath, but can you direct me to this evidence? Thanks.