Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

Dior getting a choice is wishful thinking on my part, but not without a little bit to be hopeful for. Dior was immersed in the Elvish lifestyle was married to an Elf and ruled over an Elvish kingdom. He also choice to marry an Elf before he knew the consequences of his actions. It seems very harsh to me that the Valar would not give him a choice, but nothing in the text suggest they did.

Perhaps that's a better analogy, but your friend in question will always have some of the traits associated typically with Japanese ethnicity. Whatever, his or her nationality she will remain of mixed heritage.

[Mithalwen]

I didn't say otherwise. In fact I explicitly stated they had dual ethnicity but they have full rights and obligations if citizenship. Similarly while Tolkien states that the half elven had physical traits of both races, it doesn't mean that Elrond and Elros having made their choice cannot be regarded as part of their chosen people.

I agree it is a bit harsh on Dior given he was raised Elvish but the evidence of. His and Elwing's swift maturity rather points at him being regarded as mortal.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I didn't say otherwise. In fact I explicitly stated they had dual ethnicity but they have full rights and obligations if citizenship. Similarly while Tolkien states that the half elven had physical traits of both races, it doesn't mean that Elrond and Elros having made their choice cannot be regarded as part of their chosen people.

I agree it is a bit harsh on Dior given he was raised Elvish but the evidence of. His and Elwing's swift maturity rather points at him being regarded as mortal.

On the last point I disagree with you with. Earendil and Elwing had a swift maturity too, it seems to be a trait of the Half-Elven. They age like Men, but once reaching maturity slow down to the rate of Elves up to their deaths. Half-Elves are also seem to be free from disease and other troubles of Men.

Tolkien still makes clear distinctions between the two such as his comments about Arwen or using similes to compare Elrond with Elves. So even when the Peredhil choose the race they wish to belong there is still that distinction between the two.

As for Dior he was without debate the first of the Peredhil. He himself announces this and Tolkien confirms it. I personally and this is just personal choice, don't buy the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. I don't think there were ever any other marriages between Elves and men than: Luthien and Beren, and Tuor with Idril. Consequently it's easier for me to accept that Dior and his sons were given a choice in the Halls of Mandos and the two branches of Peredhil were united in the children of Earendil and Elwing.

Just to illustrate the point look at the description about how fair Legolas is.

'cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. '

There is no need for a simile or a comparison. Now compare that with Elrond or his sons.

He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord


'they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell’.

By rank, by heritage and by might, Elrond and his sons should be Elf Lords, but are not.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for Dior he was without debate the first of the Peredhil. He himself announces this and Tolkien confirms it.

Not quite. He also had quite a good splash of Maia blood. Luthien could shape change. It's not at all clear what powers he would have had.

We'll never know what would have happened to him, and how long he would have lived, were he ruler of Menegroth, indefinitely. Though, given Elwing's fate, I'm sure Tolkien could have weaved in another 'Mandos-exception' twist about Dior. Though, Mandos tended to do that only for particularly heroic, heroically-heroin-isation of the hero-est-est. Best. Est. Heroishly heroic.

My instincts warn that he would have died, a mortal life, without the heroism intervention. When you compare Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen, and that Eldar-ishness was lost easily, quickly and readily, rather than the converse. That is, even when one's blood ran in one's vein's three part elf and one part man--that was no guarantee. One way ticket stuff. Once you choose, even if you marry an Eldar (i.e. you meet someone after you choose). Too bad, off to Mandos you go.

I personally and this is just personal choice, don't buy the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. I don't think there were ever any other marriages between Elves and men than: Luthien and Beren, and Tuor with Idril. Consequently it's easier for me to accept that Dior and his sons were given a choice in the Halls of Mandos and the two branches of Peredhil were united in the children of Earendil and Elwing.

I know all the dirt on her Silvan (as Mithrellas, i.e. lesser stature and....?) She was still Elvish (there are ways the Peredhil choice is caste where its association with the Line of Earendil is not imputed)-->so this Peredhil (was still a Half-Elf) died mortally. But, my only addendum is that we don't know what would have happened if Mithrellas snatched the kids, tossed them on a Straight-Road boat and trundled them off to Valinor (sorry, Eressea). It was my sense that this half-brood leaned towards mortality, having a domineering Numenorean dad who scared his gf off, but kept the kids....

[Mithalwen]

Dior was half elven by ethnicity. It doesn't follow that he wasn't mortal. It isn't fully explained.I do buy the Imrazor story. Also written by Tolkien and referenced by him in letters and with the internal evidence of Legolas' comments. You are of course entitled to believe what you want but it doesn't make it true. Rather more of a leap than regarding the use of Peredhel as a description of ethnicity pretty much an Epessë rather than an indication that he was completely separate from his chosen people. I think it is only mentioned because the pending choice of his children keep the issue alive and as a nod to his extraordinary lineage. I really can't see the problem. Elrond is half elven by bloodbut he shares fully in the fate of Elves ditto Elros but that of men.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Dior was half elven by ethnicity. It doesn't follow that he wasn't mortal. It isn't fully explained.I do buy the Imrazor story. Also written by Tolkien and referenced by him in letters and with the internal evidence of Legolas' comments. You are of course entitled to believe what you want but it doesn't make it true. Rather more of a leap than regarding the use of Peredhel as a description of ethnicity pretty much an Epessë rather than an indication that he was completely separate from his chosen people. I think it is only mentioned because the pending choice of his children keep the issue alive and as a nod to his extraordinary lineage. I really can't see the problem. Elrond is half elven by bloodbut he shares fully in the fate of Elves ditto Elros but that of men.

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Sharing fully in the fate of an Elf does not make you one and nor does sharing fully in the fate of Men. The example I used prior is the case of Luthien. Luthien forever remained an Elf, even though she was mortal.

Dior himself used the term and learnt both languages, because it is what he was.

'Dior their son it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's and his mother's the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredhil (halfelve); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

This would place Dior as about fifty years of age, or thereabouts, with minimum-time assumptions. I'm not sure if Elwing was younger or older than Elured and Elurin. And I'm rusty on measures of quanties (years) between Elu's slaying, Dior's ascension and the sack of Mengroth. And assuming that Elwing was about 20-25 when she and Earendil left Beleriand on Vingilot. I have no real idea....really. Is your real idea, a 'really', or a 'really' or--did I mention 'really'? I'm not sure, really. As in--really--I'm not sure about much at all.....really....truly....

Meaning--a retrofitted un-mortal-ified Dior--(for the Dior in the alternative universe that actually lived), is getting long-shot ish.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Imrahil. Beardless. Over 20 generations later. In-text citations, LotR referring to this, (Legolas). Elf-y blood. Somewhere, don't you think. And obviously more than Elendil's line, recalling that by the time Elendil or one of his brood got the hots for an Imrahil distant ancestor, whoz-its, he wasn't very Elfy anymore. Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)? This is one of the reasons I favour the Imrazor/Mithrellas citation.

[Ivriniel]

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

"....like less than half of you half-[elves half] as much as you deserve..."

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

On the last point I disagree with you with. Earendil and Elwing had a swift maturity too, it seems to be a trait of the Half-Elven. They age like Men, but once reaching maturity slow down to the rate of Elves up to their deaths. Half-Elves are also seem to be free from disease and other troubles of Men.

They were 29 years old when Elrond and Elros were born. That in no way indicates some kind of swift maturity, particularly when considering that in ancient eras girls bore children while in their early-to-mid teens. There is no indication that the Half-elven's maturity rate sped up and then slowed down, or that they died at all, unless you are referring to those who chose mortality like Elros and Arwen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord


'they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell’.

By rank, by heritage and by might, Elrond and his sons should be Elf Lords, but are not.

Elrond chose not to have a title that would indicate kingship or lordship, seemingly for political reasons. Although he could claim kingship of the Sindar through direct lineage to Elu Thingol, there was a large contingent of Noldor residing in Rivendell, and their kingship lay vacant since the death of Gil-Galad. Why exacerbate old wounds? Why refer to himself as a lord? He was Master of Rivendell and acknowledged leader of both Sindar and Noldor in that place.

Politically astute, really, in the same way Galadriel did not refer to herself as a queen either. Was she an Elvish Queen? By both lineage and power she could certainly make the claim (after all, her father Finarfin was still king of the Noldor in Valinor), and don't believe she hadn't considered it:

"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

They were 29 years old when Elrond and Elros were born. That in no way indicates some kind of swift maturity, particularly when considering that in ancient eras girls bore children while in their early-to-mid teens. There is no indication that the Half-elven's maturity rate sped up and then slowed down, or that they died at all, unless you are referring to those who chose mortality like Elros and Arwen.

I am confused about your argument here. You acknowledge that Earendil and Elwing had children before they were 30 and then you claim there is no evidence that their maturity rate was quicker than elves. Elves only reach full maturity and the age of majority at 50. The Half-elven age like Men do at the early stage as can be seen by the kids they had at a very young age relative to elves. Secondly we know that their aging then slows down, because Elrond and Elros have exactly the same potential in life. Half-elves whether mortal or immortal don't age as we call it nor do they get diseases.

Elrond chose not to have a title that would indicate kingship or lordship, seemingly for political reasons. Although he could claim kingship of the Sindar through direct lineage to Elu Thingol, there was a large contingent of Noldor residing in Rivendell, and their kingship lay vacant since the death of Gil-Galad. Why exacerbate old wounds? Why refer to himself as a lord? He was Master of Rivendell and acknowledged leader of both Sindar and Noldor in that place.

Elrond did have a title that indicated Lordship. He was Lord of Rivendell. It's true he could claim the Kingship of the Sindar, but that seems to be something he never wanted to. With the death of Gil-galad there was nobody available to claim the High Kingship of the Noldor. Galadriel and Elrond, being either female or from the maternal line, were ineligible to claim it. Only direct male descendants from a paternal line could claim the High Kingship.

That being said, there is more to the term Elf Lord, than just being a Lord of the elves. Elrond certainly was a Lord of Elves. The title seems to mean not only a literal Lord of elves, but also an elf with a certain power and heritage. Elrond qualifies for every category except being a full Elf.

Politically astute, really, in the same way Galadriel did not refer to herself as a queen either. Was she an Elvish Queen? By both lineage and power she could certainly make the claim (after all, her father Finarfin was still king of the Noldor in Valinor), and don't believe she hadn't considered it:

"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"

Galadriel as I addressed earlier could not make the claim to be the Queen of the Noldor. The Noldor only accepted kings through the male line. After the death of Gil-galad there is a possibility that they could then have accepted Celebrimbor, but that was not meant to be as Mandos prophecised.

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

This is an interesting point and something I will have to look into, but I cannot at the moment. You may be right, but then the nickname could have been when Beren was not yet a Man.

[Mithalwen]

When was Beren not a man?

[Galin]

In an early version [or versions, can't remember how many times Tolkien changed his mind here] of the Beren and Luthien tale, Beren was an Elf.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am confused about your argument here. You acknowledge that Earendil and Elwing had children before they were 30 and then you claim there is no evidence that their maturity rate was quicker than elves. Elves only reach full maturity and the age of majority at 50. The Half-elven age like Men do at the early stage as can be seen by the kids they had at a very young age relative to elves. Secondly we know that their aging then slows down, because Elrond and Elros have exactly the same potential in life. Half-elves whether mortal or immortal don't age as we call it nor do they get diseases.

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond did have a title that indicated Lordship. He was Lord of Rivendell. It's true he could claim the Kingship of the Sindar, but that seems to be something he never wanted to. With the death of Gil-galad there was nobody available to claim the High Kingship of the Noldor. Galadriel and Elrond, being either female or from the maternal line, were ineligible to claim it. Only direct male descendants from a paternal line could claim the High Kingship.

That being said, there is more to the term Elf Lord, than just being a Lord of the elves. Elrond certainly was a Lord of Elves. The title seems to mean not only a literal Lord of elves, but also an elf with a certain power and heritage. Elrond qualifies for every category except being a full Elf.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel as I addressed earlier could not make the claim to be the Queen of the Noldor. The Noldor only accepted kings through the male line. After the death of Gil-galad there is a possibility that they could then have accepted Celebrimbor, but that was not meant to be as Mandos prophecised.

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is an interesting point and something I will have to look into, but I cannot at the moment. You may be right, but then the nickname could have been when Beren was not yet a Man.

Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.

[Mithalwen]

Oh I see, actually, Morth, Tolkien says in LaCE that Elves don't reach physical maturity until 50 and some not til twice that. He may have changed his ideas in different versions but if he didn't a 22 year old elf would be equivalent probably to a human child of eight or nine. Also I doubt Idril would have left Earendil had he not been properly grown up.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.

Sometimes it's worth dropping an argument when you find additional information. What exactly in Tolkien's work makes you thin he would have a responsible, intelligent mother like Idril have her '11 year old son' marry his '11 year old girlfriend'.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.

You are wrong. Elrond was referred to as the 'Lord of Rivendell.'

'He was Lord of Rivendell and might among both Elves and Men.'

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.

Yes she could have given herself the title of Queen of Lorien, but that was, because she and Celeborn did not consider Lorien their kingdom by right. Rather they considered themselves as guardians of the land after Amroth drowned.
If Galadriel had founded a land by herself she may have indeed called herself Queen.

Off topic, but Galadriel's decision to never crown herself speaks very well for her humility and reminds me of the Stewards of Gondor. Unlike the Stewards, I doubt there would be any resistance in such a great and might Lady as Galadriel claiming Queenship.

Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.

As for Aranel it appears it could just as easily mean 'King of Elves', which fits in very well with him being Thingol's heir the Eluchil and being the King of all the Sindar.