The differences between Elves and Men

[tom the eldest]

The elves are fairer than men,and much more agile,wiser,and also elves,particularly the noldor,can crafted many things that impossible to made by men.men,are more susceptible to corruption,but they still a powerful race.they are possibly stronger than elves,but their crafting skill are probably lower than the elves,seeing that they cant made a palantie,like fëanor does.men also less wise than the elves,and more arrogant.

[Lotrelf]

I find this passage very fascinating from The Silmarillion.

In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only to the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm.
Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died.

I think this sums up all.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I find this passage very fascinating from The Silmarillion.

I think this sums up all.

Not really since Tolkien change his mind later.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Not really since Tolkien change his mind later.

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

Only about their height the rest he probably maintained.

The sentence you came up with was written around - 1937.

They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’ - around 1968.

See the difference now? I hope I could help you.

[tom the eldest]

Im correcting myself.turin didnt die when he killed glaurung.rather,he passed out,and while he passed out ninielnienor killed herself.then after turin wake up glaurung tell him that his sister is dead with his last breayh,so turin killed himself.this show how strong turin is,he survive a confrontation with glaurung and kill it too.then he only passed out from exhaustion.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Im correcting myself.turin didnt die when he killed glaurung.rather,he passed out,and while he passed out ninielnienor killed herself.then after turin wake up glaurung tell him that his sister is dead with his last breayh,so turin killed himself.this show how strong turin is,he survive a confrontation with glaurung and kill it too.then he only passed out from exhaustion.

I'm not saying Turin wasn't awesome but that was definitely not a direct confrontation since he cheap-shot the dragon with the mightiest sword ever.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

You are not wrong in my opinion Lotrelf, since to my mind this description is very sweeping and very general [Men versus Elves] and I think it means to very generally ward off the idea of a notable difference in height, according to modern conceptions [see below].

Also, Arathorn has noted that this text appears in the Quenta Silmarillion of the later 1930s -- and it does, but it was also never revised by JRRT himself much later...

... the description occurs in Quenta Silmarillion section 85, and in the 1950s [early 1950s] Tolkien altered the following sentence within this same section: 'Only in the realm of Doriath...' for example, and made another change in wording elsewhere in section 85. And in the later 1950s Tolkien again seemingly looks at this section and brackets in pencil three passages concerning the 'mortality' of the Elves...

... again these revised passages and later bracketing [suggesting further revision at least], made at different times, both appear in section 85, but the passage you quoted about height is left alone and is employed by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977 Silmarillion. One could argue that Tolkien 'missed' this like height description in section 85, and hadn't truly updated the whole section, or that he hadn't revised it because he hadn't revised it 'yet'...

... but I think it's something that doesn't need correction in any case, and I think it's because...

... Tolkien knows he is working against a modern or Victorian conception of 'Elves' as fairies who can hide behind flower petals, and given that, of 'like height' has plenty of room for later, more specific details.

I would even suggest that this passage is the result of evolution from the very early comparison: 'Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now;...' From The Book of Lost Tales, which idea changed, but even in the 1960s and early 1970s Tolkien still knows his readers are going to associate, or at least might naturally associate, 'modern ideas' when they encounter the word Elves.

I note Tolkien's description that the fairies were far greater, to get them closer to Men, and that Men were smaller than 'now', in other words, we are looking at an alteration from both sides, so to speak, but a notable one on the Elvish side, to get the Elves closer in stature to Men -- even though Men are generally larger than Elves according to certain other texts from this same [generally speaking] 'early' phase, including a notable comparison to the Elves being compared to mannish children!

Leaving aside the Cottage of Lost Play here, of course Tolkien's Elves went [externally speaking] from, if not as small as Victorian fairies, from seemingly somewhat small in The Book of Lost Tales to rather tall according to later ideas, post-Lord the Rings, but even in The Lord of the Rings Appendices Tolkien can be seen 'warding off' modern notions connected with the term Elves [his comment about wings for instance]...

... and I think this passage you quoted still has some of that behind it. In my opinion it's not meant to be precise, but to aid in letting the reader know that we are not here dealing with the Elves of popular fancy.

[mhagain]

Tolkien's final words on the matter seem to have been expressed in his author's commentary to the Athrabeth Fonrod ah Andreth (HoME 10):

There are certain things in this world that have to be accepted as 'facts'. The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race.

So there we have it: physically and biologically Elves and Men are the same species (Eruhini), and any differences between them (on the purely physical or biological level) are merely nothing more than common intra-species variation.

Some of the common tropes about Elves are not even suggested, or even outright denied, by Tolkien's work. That they're can't get drunk is false: Galion did. That they're immune to poison is false: Aredhel died of poisoning.

Of course outside of the physical and biological aspects there are other differences.

[cellurdur]

The differences are that Elves are more in tune with this world. They have 'magic' tougher bodies and can also control their bodies better.

In terms of physical characteristics Elves are taller, more beautiful and much, much stronger. They also tend to be more agile.

The Noldor were generally taller than the Sindar.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans and the House of Hador, who are the tallest and strongest. Descendants of Earendil also had 'magic'.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Tolkien's final words on the matter seem to have been expressed in his author's commentary to the Athrabeth Fonrod ah Andreth (HoME 10):



So there we have it: physically and biologically Elves and Men are the same species (Eruhini), and any differences between them (on the purely physical or biological level) are merely nothing more than common intra-species variation.

Some of the common tropes about Elves are not even suggested, or even outright denied, by Tolkien's work. That they're can't get drunk is false: Galion did. That they're immune to poison is false: Aredhel died of poisoning.

Of course outside of the physical and biological aspects there are other differences.

Isnt galion get drunk because the wine of dorwinion is so strong?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

The elves are fairer than men,and much more agile,wiser,and also elves,particularly the noldor,can crafted many things that impossible to made by men.men,are more susceptible to corruption,but they still a powerful race.they are possibly stronger than elves,but their crafting skill are probably lower than the elves,seeing that they cant made a palantie,like fëanor does.men also less wise than the elves,and more arrogant.

Noldor elves are definitely stronger than men (average) only equaled by Numenoreans and some from the House of Hador.

[tom the eldest]

Turin turambar definitely surpassed ordinary elves in term of strengh.he take-out glaurung alone(although he died too).

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Turin turambar definitely surpassed ordinary elves in term of strengh.he take-out glaurung alone(although he died too).

Fully agreed Turin was maybe the strongest man ever and would definitely be on pair with the Noldor princes.
First Age eldar weren't inhumanly strong physically(except for the ones who have seen the light of the trees and gained more spiritual power such as Fingolfin in wrath) the difference is that the Eldar were like a man very tall but with a very good muscle distribution over the body(strong but perfectly balanced). So men are less perfect and shorter(average), then they would appear broader so some would say stronger. In the case of Numenoreans the same happened for they were also blessed by the Valar and were many times said to be tall and strong but still if you read Tal-Elmar tale you will see that some second age men probably descend the House of Haleth were broader than Tal-Elmar(Numenorean descendant) but definitely not stronger.

Here are some quotes that made me interpret that way:

'' But in the dim dusk of a winter's day there appeared suddenly among them a man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in white...'' - This is a physical description of Beleg in comparison to the men that were following Túrin Turambar. But Beleg was known for his strength too so we can just understand that he's above average Eldar and also from average men, although the Noldor were in general a little larger in build.

In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe." The History of Middle-earth, vol. XI, The War of the Jewels: "Quendi and Eldar,"

"The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves..."

“…and they were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir-trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.

Felagund put forth all his power and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth. –Here Finrod was strong enough to burst his bonds to save Beren (one of the strongest men the tales tell and wasn't capable of escaping).

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Felagund put forth all his power and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth. –Here Finrod was strong enough to burst his bonds to save Beren (one of the strongest men the tales tell and wasn't capable of escaping).

One of the most riveting moments in The Silmarillion for me. I've always seen this as being a feat of spirit or maybe "magic" rather than strength, but I'll admit that brutish muscle is a much simpler explanation. Put Turin or Fingolfin in the same situation and with the same wording, and I'd probably view it the same as you, so it may just be my preconception of Finrod.

Where is Beren described as especially strong? It might be implied by the Leap of Beren--anything else?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

One of the most riveting moments in The Silmarillion for me. I've always seen this as being a feat of spirit or maybe "magic" rather than strength, but I'll admit that brutish muscle is a much simpler explanation. Put Turin or Fingolfin in the same situation and with the same wording, and I'd probably view it the same as you, so it may just be my preconception of Finrod.

Where is Beren described as especially strong? It might be implied by the Leap of Beren--anything else?

Well this is a feat of both physical strength and spiritual. While physically Turin was a match for Fingolfin in my opinion he didn't have the spirit to be above someone that was taken to be a Vala himself.
The preconception about elves being less in build and strength than men is very common don't worry since in others "cultures" they really are, even for Tolkien in the beginning the elves were shorter and slimmer than men. Finrod although far from being the strongest of the princes he's still above even the Noldor average(in strength).
Beren was many times described as being especially strong in the Silmarillion, The Peoples of Middle Earth vol. XII and in the LOTR - Remember Boromir talking about the strength of Turin and Beren(both Edain) instead of talking about some great and tall Numenorean which he descent and probably had more information since both were from the first age.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Well this is a feat of both physical strength and spiritual. While physically Turin was a match for Fingolfin in my opinion he didn't have the spirit to be above someone that was taken to be a Vala himself.
The preconception about elves being less in build and strength than men is very common don't worry since in others "cultures" they really are, even for Tolkien in the beginning the elves were shorter and slimmer than men.

By "my preconception" I only meant mine of Finrod himself. (Not that I think of him as 110 lb. weakling either.)

As far as the general question of Elven physical strength relative to that of men goes, my casual opinion is that the former would tend to be greater than the latter, on average* but still within the scope of the recognizably "human"-- recognizable in a fable that is, if not in a scientific article.

There'd be heroic paragons and exceptions among both kindreds, of course.

*Even excepting the elderly, ill, and infirm among the mortals.

...although far from being the strongest of the princes he's still above even the Noldor average(in strength).

Citations needed?

Beren was many times described as being especially strong in the Silmarillion, The Peoples of Middle Earth vol. XII

Ah, I do see the footnote in "Of Dwarves and Men" in the latter now, thank you.

and in the LOTR - Remember Boromir talking about the strength of Turin and Beren(both Edain) instead of talking about some great and tall Numenorean which he descent and probably had more information since both were from the first age.

I think you must mean the narrator describing the wounding of Shelob:

"The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it."

That's a good catch. Thank you.

[tom the eldest]

I think that among the elves there are also differences.the noldor are the one that has the most crafting skill,and they are very thirsty of knowledge.this is why they can made the palatir,silmaril,and the ring of power with the aid of annatar,and that why morgoth and sauron both target them.the vanyar have less crafting skill i think,but they are the most loyal to the valar.the teleri,meh they are average quality.the elves also has different taste of weapon.the noldor likes sword and shield,the teleri like bow and arrow,and the vanyar like spear.there are also hierarchy in the three house of elves right?


ADD:the vanyar skill is in poetry,and manwe and varda love them because of this.the teleri like building ships,but they stil pretty much average joe for me.