The differences between Elves and Men

[Lotrelf]

I find this passage very fascinating from The Silmarillion.

In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only to the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm.
Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died.

I think this sums up all.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I find this passage very fascinating from The Silmarillion.

I think this sums up all.

Not really since Tolkien change his mind later.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Not really since Tolkien change his mind later.

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

Only about their height the rest he probably maintained.

The sentence you came up with was written around - 1937.

They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’ - around 1968.

See the difference now? I hope I could help you.

[tom the eldest]

Im correcting myself.turin didnt die when he killed glaurung.rather,he passed out,and while he passed out ninielnienor killed herself.then after turin wake up glaurung tell him that his sister is dead with his last breayh,so turin killed himself.this show how strong turin is,he survive a confrontation with glaurung and kill it too.then he only passed out from exhaustion.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Im correcting myself.turin didnt die when he killed glaurung.rather,he passed out,and while he passed out ninielnienor killed herself.then after turin wake up glaurung tell him that his sister is dead with his last breayh,so turin killed himself.this show how strong turin is,he survive a confrontation with glaurung and kill it too.then he only passed out from exhaustion.

I'm not saying Turin wasn't awesome but that was definitely not a direct confrontation since he cheap-shot the dragon with the mightiest sword ever.

[tom the eldest]

No,im not directing it at you,im just adding some information that i miss

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

What mind change? Will you please elaborate? I think the thoughts mentioned here are what I said in my post. I may be wrong--or I am. *shrug*

You are not wrong in my opinion Lotrelf, since to my mind this description is very sweeping and very general [Men versus Elves] and I think it means to very generally ward off the idea of a notable difference in height, according to modern conceptions [see below].

Also, Arathorn has noted that this text appears in the Quenta Silmarillion of the later 1930s -- and it does, but it was also never revised by JRRT himself much later...

... the description occurs in Quenta Silmarillion section 85, and in the 1950s [early 1950s] Tolkien altered the following sentence within this same section: 'Only in the realm of Doriath...' for example, and made another change in wording elsewhere in section 85. And in the later 1950s Tolkien again seemingly looks at this section and brackets in pencil three passages concerning the 'mortality' of the Elves...

... again these revised passages and later bracketing [suggesting further revision at least], made at different times, both appear in section 85, but the passage you quoted about height is left alone and is employed by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977 Silmarillion. One could argue that Tolkien 'missed' this like height description in section 85, and hadn't truly updated the whole section, or that he hadn't revised it because he hadn't revised it 'yet'...

... but I think it's something that doesn't need correction in any case, and I think it's because...

... Tolkien knows he is working against a modern or Victorian conception of 'Elves' as fairies who can hide behind flower petals, and given that, of 'like height' has plenty of room for later, more specific details.

I would even suggest that this passage is the result of evolution from the very early comparison: 'Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now;...' From The Book of Lost Tales, which idea changed, but even in the 1960s and early 1970s Tolkien still knows his readers are going to associate, or at least might naturally associate, 'modern ideas' when they encounter the word Elves.

I note Tolkien's description that the fairies were far greater, to get them closer to Men, and that Men were smaller than 'now', in other words, we are looking at an alteration from both sides, so to speak, but a notable one on the Elvish side, to get the Elves closer in stature to Men -- even though Men are generally larger than Elves according to certain other texts from this same [generally speaking] 'early' phase, including a notable comparison to the Elves being compared to mannish children!

Leaving aside the Cottage of Lost Play here, of course Tolkien's Elves went [externally speaking] from, if not as small as Victorian fairies, from seemingly somewhat small in The Book of Lost Tales to rather tall according to later ideas, post-Lord the Rings, but even in The Lord of the Rings Appendices Tolkien can be seen 'warding off' modern notions connected with the term Elves [his comment about wings for instance]...

... and I think this passage you quoted still has some of that behind it. In my opinion it's not meant to be precise, but to aid in letting the reader know that we are not here dealing with the Elves of popular fancy.

[mhagain]

Tolkien's final words on the matter seem to have been expressed in his author's commentary to the Athrabeth Fonrod ah Andreth (HoME 10):

There are certain things in this world that have to be accepted as 'facts'. The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race.

So there we have it: physically and biologically Elves and Men are the same species (Eruhini), and any differences between them (on the purely physical or biological level) are merely nothing more than common intra-species variation.

Some of the common tropes about Elves are not even suggested, or even outright denied, by Tolkien's work. That they're can't get drunk is false: Galion did. That they're immune to poison is false: Aredhel died of poisoning.

Of course outside of the physical and biological aspects there are other differences.

[cellurdur]

The differences are that Elves are more in tune with this world. They have 'magic' tougher bodies and can also control their bodies better.

In terms of physical characteristics Elves are taller, more beautiful and much, much stronger. They also tend to be more agile.

The Noldor were generally taller than the Sindar.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans and the House of Hador, who are the tallest and strongest. Descendants of Earendil also had 'magic'.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The differences are that Elves are more in tune with this world. They have 'magic' tougher bodies and can also control their bodies better.

In terms of physical characteristics Elves are taller, more beautiful and much, much stronger. They also tend to be more agile.

The Noldor were generally taller than the Sindar.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans and the House of Hador, who are the tallest and strongest. Descendants of Earendil also had 'magic'.

That's pretty much everything in physical terms. Nice post!!!

But don't forget you are talking about the Eldar, Silvan elves tend to be shorter and weaker.
Agreed the average Numenoreans and some Hadoreans could reach even the Eldar Noldor strength.
The Noldor were also somewhat larger than the Teleri.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The differences are that Elves are more in tune with this world. They have 'magic' tougher bodies and can also control their bodies better.

In terms of physical characteristics Elves are taller, more beautiful and much, much stronger. They also tend to be more agile.

The Noldor were generally taller than the Sindar.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans and the House of Hador, who are the tallest and strongest. Descendants of Earendil also had 'magic'.

What about the silvan,teleri and vanyar?

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Tolkien's final words on the matter seem to have been expressed in his author's commentary to the Athrabeth Fonrod ah Andreth (HoME 10):



So there we have it: physically and biologically Elves and Men are the same species (Eruhini), and any differences between them (on the purely physical or biological level) are merely nothing more than common intra-species variation.

Some of the common tropes about Elves are not even suggested, or even outright denied, by Tolkien's work. That they're can't get drunk is false: Galion did. That they're immune to poison is false: Aredhel died of poisoning.

Of course outside of the physical and biological aspects there are other differences.

Isnt galion get drunk because the wine of dorwinion is so strong?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Isnt galion get drunk because the wine of dorwinion is so strong?

Yes and poison was made by an elf, so what Tolkien was trying to say is that things that were made by humans such as their wines and poisons weren't capable of affecting the elves in the same way.