Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

I would say: lots. Beleriand wasn't a particularly heavily-populated place. Turgon could have gone south - there's literally nothing south of Andram and east of the Nenning. He could have gone east - until the Sons of Feanor had to retreat, everything south of Estolad was pretty much empty. Heck, he could have stayed in Nevrast - apparently nobody ever bothered to go there until Tuor showed up! I really can't see any reason for Morgoth to assume that this lump of mountains, as opposed to any other (there's one above Ivrin, one at the joining of the Mountains of Mithrim and the Ered Wethrin, all the stuff around Rerir), simply had to be important.

My guess is that, until the Nirnaeth, Morgoth actually didn't think about Turgon at all. There might have been some murmuring about how the High King's son/brother (delete as temporally appropriate) vanished, but if some cowardly elf and his people chose to run off, what was that to the King of the World? It was only when Turgon suddenly appeared with a vast army that Morgoth had no idea was out there that he had to pay attention.

Morgoth knew that Turgon had appeared and retreated through the Pass of Sirion, which actually rules out a lot of places I've suggested. He probably picked up the name of Gondolin, and so knew that he was looking for the Hidden Rock (whatever that meant). And he knew that it could field at least ten thousand warriors. At that point... maybe he could have made the wild leap to 'hidden valley in the mountains'. But I still think 'somewhere off in the south' is more logical (like, say, the mouths of Sirion... )

hS

[Galadriel55]

The reason I ruled out a lot of places is 1) has to be where Morgoth's spies wouldn't see him - what keeps them from checking out all the other random lumps of rock? Nothing much, really; and 2) Turgon has to be close enough to be relevant. I mean sure, he could have even gone over the Ered Luin, but then he's less in the picture and less worrisome. He can't get into the play in time to change events; he has to be physically present on site to make a difference that would affect Morgoth.

(Again what no one realized is that Gondolin's importance was in making Earendil and not in their strength at all, but then no one has the same reader's knowledge as us, so they all assume that the way of defeating Morgoth must be through battle with him and through survival when battle is not possible).