Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Celuien]

The class standing definitely figures into Mr. Honor and Propriety bound Garstan's thoughts. He also has other reason to be really interested in Lin's doings that I can't post yet. That part of the equation explains his seriousness now, as well as his seriousness earlier at court...

So Garstan most likely is taking things a tad too seriously, but he has his reasons. ;)

Jenny says:

"Lin's almost 18, and thus her sense of melodrama is unrivaled. Too self-conscious. And I should think the honor and dishonor of great importance to a nation of semi-nomadic warriors."

We're still on AIM...

[JennyHallu]

AIM is fun. But really...Lin understands what's at stake between Garstan and herself, and also (a bit more of a superficial concern here, but she is a teenage girl, in the middle of her first real romance) really doesn't want to have to deal with her brothers, who will be greatly aware of propriety and honor in the situation, especially since she's been rather minimally chaperoned.

[Celuien]

So anyway, that's where we were coming from.

Is there anything in particular that you think needs changing, Elempi? Say the word and I will adjust Garstan's part of the post. :)

[littlemanpoet]

Just something to consider. Whereas the noble born Linduial and Degas would be very aware of propriety and honor (must save the lady's honor for her future husband and all that), Garstan, being a humble freeman, might have a more earthy attitude toward such things. Typically in the middle ages, for example, marriage occurred after pregnancy was proven. That said, Garstan could still be quite concerned over the honor of the noble lady, the standards for whom he would know are different than those for his own class. Carry on! :)

[Kath]

Sorry, need to sort out the emailing system on this thing.

Ooh as to Kara, does she need to do anything right now?

[Bêthberry]

If I may step in here and comment on this most interesting discussion...

The honour and propriety bit in older times was dependant upon descreasing the worth of a family's goods and chattels, young girls being merely the property of the family, or, as LMP points out, the future husband. The concern was for damage to property, not to the personal well being of the female. As well, medieval concepts of chivalry and the like of knights and damsels and lady loves don't really pertain to Anglo Saxon culture.

Reading Tolkien's letter to his son Michael might make for some interesting discussion here on 'canonical' depictions of young women. See Letter # 46, 6 -8 March 1941, pp. 48 - 54 in the HarperCollins paperback edition of 1990. What, indeed, would Tolkien do? ;)

[JennyHallu]

http://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/rohanletters.html

Tolkien states the Rohirrim are not medieval. I think we run a terrible risk in assuming all aspects of culture to be identical to that of the Dark Ages, and highly doubt that a couple of Degas' and Lin's rank would be year-and-day handfasted, anyway. Nor does that happen without the interest of both families. Besides, Tolkien speaks of no couple in his histories who had children or were expecting before the fact, even among the Hobbits, who were probably the most "earthy" beings on Middle Earth. Remember, Elempi dear, that you protested hints that Saeryn might have taken a "tumble in the hay". Private trysts, I truly believe, would not be appropriate.

I am sorry, Bethberry, but I have no access to the Letters. Could you provide a synopsis of the information you're referencing?

[littlemanpoet]

http://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/rohanletters.html

Tolkien states the Rohirrim are not medieval. I think we run a terrible risk in assuming all aspects of culture to be identical to that of the Dark Ages, and highly doubt that a couple of Degas' and Lin's rank would be year-and-day handfasted, anyway. Nor does that happen without the interest of both families. Besides, Tolkien speaks of no couple in his histories who had children or were expecting before the fact, even among the Hobbits, who were probably the most "earthy" beings on Middle Earth. Remember, Elempi dear, that you protested hints that Saeryn might have taken a "tumble in the hay". Private trysts, I truly believe, would not be appropriate.

I am sorry, Bethberry, but I have no access to the Letters. Could you provide a synopsis of the information you're referencing?
Actually, Jenny, I agree with you pretty much entirely. A lot of what I've been writing about this is "thinking out loud". So go with my conclusions at the ends of posts rather than how I get there because the in between stuff may not agree with the conclusion. I hope that made some sense! :eek: At least in the case of the posts about this topic. :rolleyes: Anyway, I'll provide the content for that Letter when I get home.

One minor nitpick: the Dark Ages (450 - c.1000) and Medieval period (c.1000 - 1500) are two different times.

Kath, whatever you want for now.

[Celuien]

And of course, Garstan's concern is that the young lady's responsible relatives haven't given their approval to any courtin'. ;) The 'business' side of her family's ability to match her properly for their purposes would be concerning to him.

That letter.

"In this fallen world, the friendship that should be possible between all human beings, is virtually impossible between man and woman...This 'friendship' has often been tried: one side or the other nearly always fails."

Tolkien meets When Harry Met Sally? :D :p

[littlemanpoet]

It's too long a letter to reproduce in full. Celuien's quote from it give as good a summary of Tolkien's point of view as any. With one addition: Men are looking for their "star". Women are more practical. So it's all about interaction between the sexes. Quite interesting reading! Some of his insights would be considered decidedly man-centered these days.

[Bêthberry]

Bah humbug, lmp.

Courtly love is wrong because it is not wholly theocentric and diverts


"the young man's eyes off women as they are, as companions in shipwreck not guiding stars. . . . It inculcates exaggerated notions of 'true love', as a fire from without, a permanent exaltation, unrelated to age, childbearing, and plain life, and unrelated to will and purpose.. . . Women really have not much part in all this, though they may use the language of romantic love, since it is so entwined in all our idioms. The sexual impulse makes women (naturally when unspoiled more unselfish) very sympathetic and understanding, or specially desirous of being so (or seeming so),...the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. . . . Before the young woman knows where she is (and while the romantic young man, when he exists, is still sighing), she may actually 'fall in love'. Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man's children, even if that desire is by no means clear to her or explicit. . . . You may meet in life (as in literature) women who are flighty, or even plain wanton--I don't refer to mere flirtatiousness, the sparring practice for the real combat, but to women who are too silly to take even love seriously, or are actually so depraved as to enjoy 'conquests' or even enjoy the giving of pain--but these are abnormalities. . . . Unless perverted by bad contemporary fashions they do not as rule talk 'bawdy'; not because they rae purer than men (they are not) but because they don't find it funny. I have known those who pretended to, but it is a pretence. It may be intriguing, interesting, absorbingh (even a great deal to absorbing) to them: but it is just p lumb natural, a serious, obvious interest; where is the joke? ... But they are instinctively, when uncorrupt, monogamous... Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes: in the sense that almost certainly (in a more perfect world) or even with a little more care in this very imperfect one), both partners might have foundmore suitable mates.. . . "

Well, I suppose that is covered by lmp's "decidedly man-centric" comment, but isn't it much more interesting to see just how Tolkien thinks a young woman ought to behave? Of course, this is just a letter, and so I suppose it is less canonical than LotR, which doesn't really say anything about Arwen's desires for Aragorn, or Galadariel's for Gimli's ;) or Celeborn's, or Rosie's for Sam...

It is such a tangled web, trying to figure out what is a proper attitude to display in young women characters in RPGs. Actually, Jenny, there are several threads here on the Downs which do discuss the possibility of those very trysts you are alluding to. It is possible that elves 'get away with it'... in the fine print of Luthien and Beren, to which of course Tolkien alluded in his gravestone, a choice he made both for himself and Edith. My letter omits his comments on his and her relationship. ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You've got to be kidding me.

I'm writing my women and their opinions of men the way I want them. Tolkien can go suck a lemon.

[Firefoot]

What Fea said.

[Celuien]

Tolkien can go suck a lemon

Fea, you're too funny. :D

I think I'll start a lemon farm. Because I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Anyway, I'll be back with a post sometime tomorrow evening or Friday (if that timing is okay - when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?) in which Garstan expresses his concerns to Lin's brother. Hopefully that will settle this little twist so we can move on.

Wow. So much discussion from one post. :D

EDIT: And about that post, anything special anyone wants me to put in there to make sure we don't run into problems again?

[littlemanpoet]

I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...Women lived under constraints in his time that they do no longer. Moving right along.... :p

... when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?)There's still (1) Stigend and Modtryn to take care of (2) Saeryn to discuss the court day with (3) Degas and Saeryn to have a fight in Eodwine's presence, all toDay yet. :eek: THEN we move into the next Day. Might not happen until after this weekend, for all I know....

There are no problems with the post under discussion, Celuien and Jenny. The only problem it seemed to have was that Garstan seemed to be reacting to the situation less like a commoner and more like a fellow noble who had a stake in Linduial herself. That seeming problem has been answered to my satisfaction. ;)

[Celuien]

Women lived under constraints in his time that they do no longer. Moving right along....
Yep. Moving along. :p

There's still (1) Stigend and Modtryn to take care of (2) Saeryn to discuss the court day with (3) Degas and Saeryn to have a fight in Eodwine's presence, all toDay yet. :eek: THEN we move into the next Day. Might not happen until after this weekend, for all I know....

Okay. That should be plenty of time for the post.

There are no problems with the post under discussion, Celuien and Jenny. The only problem it seemed to have was that Garstan seemed to be reacting to the situation less like a commoner and more like a fellow noble who had a stake in Linduial herself. That seeming problem has been answered to my satisfaction.
Understood. ;)

[Firefoot]

Nerindel - are you around still? If so, do you want to try and do something with Aedhel and Leof still toDay?

[Nogrod]

As Eodwine seems to have two discussions in front of him toDay and he has indicated that our family should follow him suit, I'll make a save to the thread for our discussion and try to come up with it today - tomorrow so that Eodwine may react to it once more and then have the discussion with Saeryn (and to wittness the fight).

That sounds okay?

--------------------------------------

EDIT

Nogrod - please check your PM's concerning SAVEs on the Mead Hall thread.

~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

Nerindel - are you around still? If so, do you want to try and do something with Aedhel and Leof still toDay?
Nerindel has not been around for some time. I PM'd her over a month ago, which she responded to with a "do what you need to"; so her character has been moved to Meduseld until Nerindel returns to write with us again.

[Bêthberry]

Tolkien can go suck a lemon.

Fea, you're too funny.

I think I'll start a lemon farm. Because I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Anyway, I'll be back with a post sometime tomorrow evening or Friday (if that timing is okay - when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?) in which Garstan expresses his concerns to Lin's brother. Hopefully that will settle this little twist so we can move on.

Wow. So much discussion from one post.

EDIT: And about that post, anything special anyone wants me to put in there to make sure we don't run into problems again?

*sings* Lemon tree very pretty, and the fruit ...

Ah, that might be a reference too dated for you young 'uns. ;)

Celuien, for this reader, there wasn't a 'problem' with that post, just an interesting aspect to consider here about all the loves and lives going on. Can't a reader ask questions or make comparisons? I thought there would be interesting response to dear Tolkien's letter, which lmp did his level best to gloss over. That "no sex" RPGing rule has to come from somewhere, eh? :D

*moving along* ;)

[Celuien]

*sings* Lemon tree very pretty, and the fruit ...

Ah, that might be a reference too dated for you young 'uns.
Not for this young 'un. ;)

Celuien, for this reader, there wasn't a 'problem' with that post, just an interesting aspect to consider here about all the loves and lives going on. Can't a reader ask questions or make comparisons? I thought there would be interesting response to dear Tolkien's letter, which lmp did his level best to gloss over. That "no sex" RPGing rule has to come from somewhere, eh?
Comparisons welcome. I did worry, however, that we'd slipped into anakronism after reading the comments on courtly love and seeing lmp's history lesson. ;)

Actually, I find this an interesting discussion, possibly needing expansion on the Books forum or HI-ing of related topics. :)

Moving right along...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Celuien, when approaching Farahil, just remember that he doesn't share his thoughts. Generally at all.

[Celuien]

So noted.

The only thing Garstan will do is report. He's uncomfortable enough as it is to do anything else. :rolleyes:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Poor dear... poor hall in general, come to think of it. :)

[littlemanpoet]

One rule: There are to be no 'saves'. Just by way of reminder.

I forgot about the rule myself and did one; our kindly Rohan Moderator Piosenniel informed me that as Moderator of this thread, I have a right to place SAVES for story flow. But I'll do it only very sparingly if at all because Pio only needs a request to place a post within a previous post.

If we're desperate to get a bit of writing to fit in a certain spot in the story flow, we ask Pio to do it for us rather than clutter up the thread with SAVES .... which sometimes stay put and are forgotten about, which is actually sort of deplorable, don't you think? ;)

Back to writing! :)

[Nogrod]

LMP

Sorry to have caused the fuzz by imitating your example yesterday... :)

I'll have our post up in an hour or so.

You should probably answer to it in a way that you can continue your other tasks for the Night. But I will be quite readily available, so that if you want a short answer, I'll probably be able to give it very soon (a short one, surely - this upcoming one seems to be getting a long one once again), meaning absolutely less than 24 hours from your post.

And we could always use Pio here... :D

Nice to be really in this game at last!

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, Noggie. :) We could always build a post via PM. Seems to be a catching trend.... :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Seems to be a catching trend.... :)
Yeah, speaking of that... go check yours! :p

[Nogrod]

Okay, post in.

lmp, check the palate - have I described a believable late-evening "snack" for the Eorl? Are you (Eodwine and Saeryn) acting believably?

And sorry for the flooding, but really there were so many things to say. The meaning was not that our characters just talk without letting you hosts / masters any space to answer, but as I knew that we should have to deal with this with just a couple of posts, I tried to fill all relevant information in I managed.

And yes. So bad Lommy is without a net access for a while. I have tried to "drag" Modtryth with - and have asked for her blessing with a mobile phone with the way I have portraid her and for her charactert's actions. Happily we had some discussions about our characters and their relations before, so this should be okay by Lommy also in the end (hadn't time to check the latest things I added / rewrit).

I would like us to make one more post on this Day. SOmething how Eodwine thinks of the stuff and maybe a reaction. But surely you can just answer and give us a leave. Our characters might then speculate about your answer (and find Cnebba from somewhere... :D )

PM'ing is allright by me as I can manage my scheduals quite freely. Just give me some times when we could do it and I'll tell you when I have to sleep... :rolleyes:

[Celuien]

Garstan has all three kids with him right now. I'm sure he'll be quite willing to release them. He has business to settle. At least from his point of view.

Trying for tonight, but possibly not until tomorrow...

[Nogrod]

Garstan has all three kids with him right now. I'm sure he'll be quite willing to release them. He has business to settle. At least from his point of view.
Just release Cnebba the way you want. If we (Stigend and Modtryth) are excused from the kitchen before we have seen Cnebba, we would be searching for him anyways. But you could also send him there in the middle of our discussion (meaning after we had spoken our mouths with that mammouth of a post)

If lmp has time to write us an answer in the next 24 hours, I could try to help you out with that one. If you have so much time...

I had already thought of a meeting between Garstan and Stigend - the future working-pair, but then I saw that lmp had already written us to the kitchen table and remembered that the kids had gone already. So there was no natural chance there.

Maybe here then, or then later?

Should we PM about this as not to overload this thread? I'm going to sleep now, but will be awake in some eight hours...

[Celuien]

Should we PM about this as not to overload this thread?

Maybe so. I'll be asleep about 8 hours from now, but awake in 10. Timezones... :)

[littlemanpoet]

I've had Cnebba show up to help out with the evening meal. Surely the kid has to be starving and could smell food, and would find his way in? If you want to handle it differently, let me know.

I've written it so that we can segué rather smoothly into the PM post Feanor and I have been building for Eodwine and Saeryn to discuss the court day.

If you have any requests for edits regarding my posts today, please PM me; I'll respond quicker that way.

[Celuien]

All three children were together eating apples, and Garstan was taking them to find Cnebba's mother at the end of my last post...

Having Cnebba come back works fine for me. I'll assume that the group came close enough for food to be sniffed and that Cnebba then entered the room, leaving Garstan free to carry on his business with Lin's brother.

Cnebba's playmates, however, might want to join him there in a bit, if that's okay with you and Nogrod. :)

[littlemanpoet]

We can work it out, Celuien. Just notify me and/or Noggie of any edits we need to make. :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Why Degas insists on provoking her when he knows what will happen...

Saeryn will regret this like nobody's business in the morning.

[Nogrod]

Cnebba's playmates, however, might want to join him there in a bit, if that's okay with you and Nogrod. :)That's fine with me. I'll probably write a shorter one still to get us into our room and wonder about the day while you folks start your discussions of the court day and have the argument.

Maybe the best way to get your children back is that Garstan will come to get them from our room - then we can also meet.

Sounds okay?

[Celuien]

Maybe the best way to get your children back is that Garstan will come to get them from our room - then we can also meet.

Sounds okay?
That works perfectly. :)

My next post will send Garstan's kids Cnebba-ward before he goes to bear his news.

[Celuien]

There. Done.

As far as Garstan is concerned, he has now fulfilled his responsibility by informing the lady's family about the possibility of her goin' a-courtin'. Any additional questions might be answered by referring Farahil to Lin since my poor confused stoneshaper feels out of place and doesn't really know what he should or shouldn't say. :D

And he'll be on his way to find the children again. Garstan doesn't know what to think of having another Dundendling around just yet after the horse-thieving question with Manawyth (which also puzzles him greatly), but he's inclined to be favorably disposed toward the family. Cnebba made a good impression. :) And at any rate, he will follow the Eorl's lead about anyone in the household.

[JennyHallu]

Lin's too busy wallowing in self pity to say this, so I, on her behalf, extend my thanks to Garstan for his *aHEM* discretion.

Oh and Fea, will Degas be giving some sort of hint or answer to Lin's question ere she leaves?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oh, what a tangled web we weave... Farahil has reacted in a typical Farahil way. Saeryn has reacted in a less typical one to her own surprise visitor.

[Celuien]

Lin's too busy wallowing in self pity to say this, so I, on her behalf, extend my thanks to Garstan for his *aHEM* discretion.
His keeper thanks you for your thanks. :D

[Thinlómien]

Wow, it seems the events have started unfolding.

Of course when I happen to be away... :rolleyes: :)

Noggie, the post is fine with me.

Great posting everyone. I might be able to do one post next week - Wednesday or later.

I think Modtryth could be hired too, to do some maidwork or help in the kitchen etc. if there's need for such a work.

And it might be inevitable that she meets Manawyth.

[JennyHallu]

Just because my curiousity has been aroused, I have done some research into medieval and dark ages courting customs:

And from what I've found, Garstan's concerns seem appropriate. While it is true, LMP, that often marriage was postponed until fertility was assured, this was a rather formal process in and of itself. After all, there is much difference between a modest lass seeking marriage and a lightskirt. I have read (didn't save the link. Oops.) of a 'handfasting' system, where the young couple are declared betrothed in church, with no date set for the wedding beyond a year and a day, or some such significant interval. If the couple find the fertility of the bride to be a concern, at that point they are officially betrothed, and there is no taboo upon "alone time" ;) (If this involves physical intimacy, it is quietly winked upon by their elders, but never truly acknowledged. The important thing is that it is no longer improper for the two to spend time alone without a chaperone, whereas it otherwise would be, no matter the rank of the couple.) The wedding date can then be set whenever it needs to be, and if the proscribed interval passes, the two are both then officially single unless they renew the betrothal.

Does that make sense or have I talked mostly in circles?

[JennyHallu]

Um...Elempi, I thought you said the door to the room was left open? Not a big deal, but...which was it?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Presumably it was open for his talk with Saeryn to preserve propriety and closed once her brother, a good chaperone, was there to preserve privacy?

[JennyHallu]

I just got confused since it wasn't specified. Fea: Will there be some acknowledgement of Lin's question from Degas before she leaves?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Degas's response is written and ready to be posted. As soon as it becomes "tomorrow," I'll see if I can stop grinning long enough to put it up. :smokin:

[Folwren]

What's happening? I'm at a suddenly total loss of what is going on here.

My real question is this - how soon do you want to move time ahead, Elempi? If you guys are still planning on spending some time this night, I'd like to have Thornden and Lys talk some. :)

-- Folwren

[Nogrod]

I've done my "short" post... :rolleyes:

Please Fea: tell me if Saeryn is handled badly - I'll correct it instantly.

We are conspirating a final post for this day with Celuien where the future working pair will meet before going to sleep. It will be in quite soon - I suppose.

Folwren: I think we are about to close the day to go ... to the next day, and jump only then (or then I'm wrong).

[Celuien]

We are conspirating a final post for this day with Celuien where the future working pair will meet before going to sleep. It will be in quite soon - I suppose.
Post in. :)

Jenny: Feel free to borrow the squirrel for farewells if you're writing Lin's departure. I might not be around as much as usual this weekend with last minute projects around the house that need completion before 4th of July parties...

[littlemanpoet]

Two things:

1. It's important that Eodwine speak with Linduial before she leaves the Mead Hall.

2. Pio, Nogrod's post # 395 & Celuien's # 396 belong in between posts # 386 & 387. Can you take care of that, please?

[Celuien]

Do the posts have to go there, lmp? That gives Garstan the kids before he talks to Farahil. And he was looking for the children in 392...

[piosenniel]

You all take time to reach a final decision before I start moving things . . .

:)

~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

Do the posts have to go there, lmp? That gives Garstan the kids before he talks to Farahil. And he was looking for the children in 392...
The problem is that Noggie has written Saeryn into 395, doing things that she has to have done before 387.

They arranged their belongings to their new quarters and discussed this and that, but soon they felt really tired indeed. It was late and Cnebba hadn’t yet come. In the end Stigend took out to search for him. As soon as he got to the corridor he heard the door banging and then the joyous shrieks of children coming towards him from the downstairs. He settled himself to the upper end of the stairs and waited for the children to come up.

This is a good transition point such that the part ahead of it can be moved to before 387, while the rest of it can remain where it is, allowing 396 to stay put. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

[Nogrod]

I agree with Celuien here about the timing. They really met only later, after the other things / simultaneously to them. But surely Garstan can't be looking for his kids after he has met with them? :D

I see no problem in our characters meeting in the "middle of the night". They had all had a hard day - and the children couldn't feel their inner clock as they were so excited about the new company. To me this looks fine as it is...

And I guess at least on the part of our family (and I believe) also of Celuien's characters, we are ready to change the day now...

CROSS-POSTED WITH LMP - SEE THE NEXT POST...

[Nogrod]

The problem is that Noggie has written Saeryn into 395, doing things that she has to have done before 387.
Couldn't we just handle this as a flashback - as I think it is usual here. The things might have moved forwards and then someone just remembers what has happened before?

To me it would be no problem, but I'm surely ready to correct things if that is needed.

We could just cut my post from the middle (after Saeryn's gone) and move the first part to an earlier location and then leave the rest + Celuien's last one to where it is?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My only concern is the same as LMP's. Saeryn is crying in Eodwine's room at the time she seems also to be showing your folks their room/s. The rest of the post can really go anywhere, and I have no problem at all with anything Saer said (you got her quite well), it's just that one inconsistency.

[Nogrod]

My only concern is the same as LMP's. Saeryn is crying in Eodwine's room at the time she seems also to be showing your folks their room/s.How come you think she is doing it at the same time? If we would like to make the story unfold absolutely chronologically, we should then use a tightly targeted - and before discussed and dealed - saves-system to clear to everyone on what hour of their day thing one or two happens. How would that be made with all the time-zone issues etc.?

And that's the way I think these games have been played! There seemed to be no problem with this same thing as our family was fetched in to the Mead Hall, and still my post first looked back on things that had happened before we were called in and continued the story? (I think even the Mead Hall thread is full of these "going back a little" -instances, but as the sun already shines here and I am tired, I will not go searching for other examples)

And please, look at how the posts went:

Lmp, end of #386
Saeryn as host and Lady, showed the family to their room, and Eodwine went to the hearth fire to see how Garwine had fared.

Fea, start of #387
Saeryn retired to her room for a few short moments to splash cold water on her face and change into soft breeches and a loose shirt long since stolen from Degas.Does your requirement mean that if you happen to have time to write these two things one after another, no one else is allowed to write of anything that has happened between these two posts including what your characters have done between the "jump" you have created by posting at certain hour of your timezone? I can't see that as a good RPG'ing, even I'm a novice in here.

So what actually is the problem? I don't see one here...

And I am sorry if my tone is sounding bad. I'm not meaning it 'cause I love to be in this game with you all. I'm just astonished about this discussion out from nowhere to which I can't see no reason...

But you might enlighten me about it if I'm totally wrong (and if I'm the only one, then just ignore my babbling).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

It's not a problem with the writing or the story telling at all. It's merely a question as to whether or not it might help potential readers to shift sections around a little bit. Not deletion, not rewriting, just a little bit of movement to help it read more smoothly.

[piosenniel]

If Nogrod put the first part of his post into Past Perfect tense; then, a reader could assume that these actions had taken place earlier in the story line. The first part of the post would be more like a recollection of what had gone on.

Would this work well enough for everyone's concerns?

-----

They had run into Garmund and Lèoðern on their way to their chambers. Although the situation might be better described by saying that Garmund and Lèoðern had run to them.

“You must first come and see where our home is dear”, Modtryth tried to reason to Cnebba as he was intensively asking for a permit to go play outside with Garmund and Lèoðern still for a while. “How could you come home if you don’t know where it is?”

“You could come and get me, ... if you’d find me!” Cnebba had answered, looking at the siblings as conspirationally as an 8-year old is capable of. “Or we could sleep outside? We could play that we are great heroes on a dangerous journey!” he continued with his eyes flashing. Garmund and Lèoðern seemed to appreciate Cnebba’s zeal.

“I have a solution”, Stigend had broken in. Then he turned towards Garmund and Lèoðern, kneeling a little to be nearer the level of their faces and asked: “If your father and mother let you stay up this late, would you like to come with us to see our chambers? You could keep company with Cnebba and we could all see our new home. Okay? I think the Lady here would have other things to do than follow our discussions about who is to come home and when and with whom.” The last bit of his speech had clearly not been directed to the children only. They had been so well received that Stigend was somewhat worried not to cause any unnecessary troubles or inconveniences to their new masters because of them.

The children had looked at each other, smiled and nodded enthusiastically in chorus. Lady Saeryn had smiled at the kids and after nodding gently to Modtryth and Stigend, she turned to lead them to their quarters.

The room was clean and cosy. By their standards it was almost luxurious. Clean linens on beds, a table and chairs of well made handicraft, even a wardrobe and a rocking chair! And it was clean. That last one really impressed the three. Yes, it also impressed Cnebba.

“I hope to see you all downstairs in the morning to have breakfast and to discuss your duties”, Saeryn had addressed them from the doorstep. Noticing Cnebba’s little shiver when he heard the word ‘duties’, she added kindly, smiling at him: “Yes, you too Cnebba. You will have a duty to play with Garmund and Lèoðern everyday so that all your parents can do their work undisturbed by you three.” She had smiled at Stigend and Modtryth and left with the wishes of good night.

After Stigend and Modtryth had carried all their belongings to their room and Stigend had been shown where to take their horse and the cart, they both felt happy and tired. The children clearly were happy too, but unfortunately they seemed not to be tired at all. When in the game of ‘orcs and knights’ Cnebba and Garmund fell together over a pile of newly pleated clothes, Stigend and Modtryth realised, that the room wasn’t so big at all, at least tonight.

“You still would like to play outside?” Modtryth asked with a bit sarcastic tone that the children wouldn’t understand, but which Stigend enjoyed so much, when the point was not directed to himself. The children almost froze hearing her words. “Outside?” they yelled in chorus and were about to set out immediately.

“Hey!” Stigend called them loud enough to stop them at the door. “Cnebba, not for a long time. You’ll have to sleep tonight and you have all the days to play together. You’ll come back in an hour.” During his last sentence the kids had already turned around and run off. “You forgot the ‘no foolery’-part”, Modtryth said to her husband, smiling heartily. Stigend just smiled back and whispered in a laid-back tone “Nobody’s perfect...”, and winked an eye to her.

The two had taken each others hands and just felt happy. “We have been blessed today”, Modtryth whispered softly. “At least being fortunate”, Stigend answered quietly and ran his fingers through her hair. “We might even get these washed one day” he noted jokingly after a while, still smoothing her. Modtryth tugged him so hard that he fell flat on his back to the bed. “Oh, you!” she had protested, but they were both laughing. The first thoroughly happy laughs they had had in years.

~*~

They arranged their belongings to their new quarters and discussed this and that, but soon they felt really tired indeed. It was late and Cnebba hadn’t yet come. In the end Stigend took out to search for him. As soon as he got to the corridor he heard the door banging and then the joyous shrieks of children coming towards him from the downstairs. He settled himself to the upper end of the stairs and waited for the children to come up.

“Daddy, daddy, look what we found!” Cnebba shouted eagerly. All three gathered around Stigend as Garmund showed him the find. Stigend kneeled to see it better. It was a caterpillar, that much Stigend knew of it, but he had never been very knowledgeable with these things.

“It’s called a caterpillar. It will change into a butterfly one day.” He said to his keen audience. The children looked at him in disbelief. “This yacky thing will be a beautiful butterfly one day?” Lèoðern asked, hardly being able to hold back her disbelief.

“Yes it will my little ones” said the voice from behind them.

“Daddy!” Garmund and Lèoðern shouted and ran to him, Garmund still carefully treasuring the newly found wonder in his hand. Stigend rose up and greeted the man.

“You must be Garstan, the stoneshaper. My name is Stigend, I’m a carpenter.” They shook hands in eorling fashion, taking hold with their right arms of the others right arm just someway below the wrist and looked each other in the eye.

Stigend felt good with this man. His eyes were honest and open, revealing a kind of person he had used to appreciate. His grip from his hand was firm and strong, yet he seemed not to be one of those who wanted to impress others with too much force – or one of those whose hand felt like a cold dead fish.

[Celuien]

This is a good transition point such that the part ahead of it can be moved to before 387, while the rest of it can remain where it is, allowing 396 to stay put. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?
That makes sense to me. :) My only concern was that if the meeting took place before my post in 389, I would have to edit that post and 392 to account for Garstan's having already met Stigend. And having already sent the children to bed. Nogrod put it well here:
But surely Garstan can't be looking for his kids after he has met with them? :D

Either change, whether by making the first half of Nogrod's post a flashback through use of the past perfect, or by moving the first part up to the transition point is fine for me. Whichever everyone else prefers. :)

[Nogrod]

Either change, whether by making the first half of Nogrod's post a flashback through use of the past perfect, or by moving the first part up to the transition point is fine for me. Whichever everyone else prefers. :)I agree. Both work fine.

[littlemanpoet]

Let's go with the past perfect the way you wrote it, Pio. And thanks for taking such effort to help us out. It is greatly appreciated.

[piosenniel]

OK -- the Past Perfect form of the post is on the Mead Hall Thread.

I'm just going to park the original post here:


They ran into Garmund and Lèoðern on their way to their chambers. Although the situation might be better described by saying that Garmund and Lèoðern ran to them.

“You must first come and see where our home is dear”, Modtryth tried to reason to Cnebba as he was intensively asking for a permit to go play outside with Garmund and Lèoðern still for a while. “How could you come home if you don’t know where it is?”

“You could come and get me, ... if you’d find me!” Cnebba answered, looking at the siblings as conspirationally as an 8-year old is capable of. “Or we could sleep outside? We could play that we are great heroes on a dangerous journey!” he continued with his eyes flashing. Garmund and Lèoðern seemed to appreciate Cnebba’s zeal.

“I have a solution”, Stigend broke in. Then he turned towards Garmund and Lèoðern, kneeling a little to be nearer the level of their faces and asked: “If your father and mother let you stay up this late, would you like to come with us to see our chambers? You could keep company with Cnebba and we could all see our new home. Okay? I think the Lady here would have other things to do than follow our discussions about who is to come home and when and with whom.” The last bit of his speech was clearly not directed to the children only. They had been so well received that Stigend was somewhat worried not to cause any unnecessary troubles or inconveniences to their new masters because of them.

The children looked at each other, smiled and nodded enthusiastically in chorus. Lady Saeryn smiled to the kids and after nodding gently to Modtryth and Stigend, she turned to lead them to their quarters.

The room was clean and cosy. By their standards it was almost luxurious. Clean linens on beds, a table and chairs of well made handicraft, even a wardrobe and a rocking chair! And it was clean. That last one really impressed the three. Yes, it also impressed Cnebba.

“I hope to see you all downstairs in the morning to have breakfast and to discuss your duties”, Saeryn addressed them from the doorstep. Noticing Cnebba’s little shiver when he heard the word ‘duties’, she added kindly, smiling at him: “Yes, you too Cnebba. You will have a duty to play with Garmund and Lèoðern everyday so that all your parents can do their work undisturbed by you three.” She smiled to Stigend and Modtryth and left with the wishes of good night.

After Stigend and Modtryth had carried all their belongings to their room and Stigend had been shown where to take their horse and the cart, they both felt happy and tired. The children clearly were happy too, but unfortunately they seemed not to be tired at all. When in the game of ‘orcs and knights’ Cnebba and Garmund fell together over a pile of newly pleated clothes, Stigend and Modtryth realised, that the room wasn’t so big at all, at least tonight.

“You still would like to play outside?” Modtryth asked with a bit sarcastic tone that the children wouldn’t understand, but which Stigend enjoyed so much, when the point was not directed to himself. The children almost froze hearing her words. “Outside?” they yelled in chorus and were about to set out immediately.

“Hey!” Stigend called them loud enough to stop them at the door. “Cnebba, not for a long time. You’ll have to sleep tonight and you have all the days to play together. You’ll come back in an hour.” During his last sentence the kids had already turned around and run off. “You forgot the ‘no foolery’-part”, Modtryth said to her husband, smiling heartily. Stigend just smiled back and whispered in a laid-back tone “Nobody’s perfect...”, and winked an eye to her.

They took each others hands and just felt happy. “We have been blessed today”, Modtryth whispered softly. “At least being fortunate”, Stigend answered quietly and ran his fingers through her hair. “We might even get these washed one day” he noted jokingly after a while, still smoothing her. Modtryth tugged him so hard that he fell flat on his back to the bed. “Oh, you!” she protested, but they were both laughing. The first thoroughly happy laughs they had had in years.


They arranged their belongings to their new quarters and discussed this and that, but soon they felt really tired indeed. It was late and Cnebba hadn’t yet come. In the end Stigend took out to search for him. As soon as he got to the corridor he heard the door banging and then the joyous shrieks of children coming towards him from the downstairs. He settled himself to the upper end of the stairs and waited for the children to come up.

“Daddy, daddy, look what we found!” Cnebba shouted eagerly. All three gathered around Stigend as Garmund showed him the find. Stigend kneeled to see it better. It was a caterpillar, that much Stigend knew of it, but he had never been very knowledgeable with these things.

“It’s called a caterpillar. It will change into a butterfly one day.” He said to his keen audience. The children looked at him in disbelief. “This yacky thing will be a beautiful butterfly one day?” Lèoðern asked, hardly being able to hold back her disbelief.

“Yes it will my little ones” said the voice from behind them.

“Daddy!” Garmund and Lèoðern shouted and ran to him, Garmund still carefully treasuring the newly found wonder in his hand. Stigend rose up and greeted the man.

“You must be Garstan, the stoneshaper. My name is Stigend, I’m a carpenter.” They shook hands in eorling fashion, taking hold with their right arms of the others right arm just someway below the wrist and looked each other in the eye.

Stigend felt good with this man. His eyes were honest and open, revealing a kind of person he had used to appreciate. His grip from his hand was firm and strong, yet he seemed not to be one of those who wanted to impress others with too much force – or one of those whose hand felt like a cold dead fish.

[Nogrod]

Yes. I truly and wholeheartedly agree with lmp here:
Let's go with the past perfect the way you wrote it, Pio. And thanks for taking such effort to help us out. It is greatly appreciated.Thanks, Pio.

[littlemanpoet]

It appears that Feanor has deftly ended the Day. Nice writing! :)

We now move on to the next Day for a (somewhat) brief series of posts to tie up dangling loose ends, or at least to pin them onto the drawing board in ways that suit us.

Would anyone like to take dibs at starting the new Day?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ooh, ooh, can I? Please? I have the most brilliant post... I wrote it a few days back talking to Kath and couldn't help but laugh a LOT while doing it. Pretty please?

PS: Thanks for the accolades. :D

[littlemanpoet]

Ooh, ooh, can I? Please? I have the most brilliant post... I wrote it a few days back talking to Kath and couldn't help but laugh a LOT while doing it. Pretty please?Take it away, Fea. :)

[Laiudanama]

Just to check, as a new writer to Eorling Mead Hall: am I able to post any time without entering a profile on this thread? Although I will wait until Feanor has done her post before doing so, if you prefer :)

-Lai

[JennyHallu]

I think--and wait for littlemanpoet's confirmation, that you are free to post without a bio (I never wrote one)...but if you feel like giving us some clues to your character, no one would mind. Bear in mind that the in-game Day Fea will start will be rather abridged: probably only going through until mid-morning. Don't know how long (real life) that will take.

[Kath]

Oh yes Fea please do post, I can't wait to read this little masterpiece :D

Lai, you need to start in the Golden Perch I think, as you have to write in the Shire before you can write in Rohan - unless that rule has been changed?

[JennyHallu]

You can write in the Hall straight off, but not in a Rohan RP.

[littlemanpoet]

Just to check, as a new writer to Eorling Mead Hall: am I able to post any time without entering a profile on this thread?
I think--and wait for littlemanpoet's confirmation, that you are free to post without a bio (I never wrote one)...but if you feel like giving us some clues to your character, no one would mind. Bear in mind that the in-game Day Fea will start will be rather abridged: probably only going through until mid-morning. Don't know how long (real life) that will take.
Thanks for an excellent reply, Jenny! :) Laiuy (if I may so shorten your moniker), just to follow precedent around here, tell us your character's name, age, ethnic background (examples: Eorling, Gondorian; Dwarf from the Glittering Caves; Elf of Ithilien), and trade. Just to clue you in, we're currently in Fourth Age year 14. Go here (http://www.forums.barrowdowns.com./showpost.php?p=439978&postcount=1) for an introduction to all things Eorling.

[Laiudanama]

'Laiuy'? Fair enough, I'm just wondering how exactly you would pronounce that...sounds kinda like eating toffee...;)

Thanks - will do so.

[Firefoot]

Yum, toffee...

And so this post isn't just about toffee:

Welcome, Lai! :) Can't wait to see what kind of character you come up with.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Post will be up shortly. Got suddenly bummed that I seem to have lost my flash drive before realizing that I PMed myself the post lest that happen. :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Double posting... bad me...

The song that Degas plays and sings in my last post is this tune (http://www.music.iastate.edu/antiqua/mp3/Musica_Antiqua_torch_branle.mp3).
It ends a bit before his song does, sadly... I couldn't help but add two more stanzas... but it's the closest melody I could find to the one I had in mind.

[littlemanpoet]

'Laiuy'? Fair enough, I'm just wondering how exactly you would pronounce that...sounds kinda like eating toffee...

Thanks - will do so.Uh, Lay-oo-ee? :p Yeah, Lai is better. :rolleyes:

Fea, I love the tune! :D

Such a bright expectant morning.....

[Nogrod]

lmp

I just talked with Lommy on the phone. She's still in eastern Finland but will have a chance to get online on Thursday or Friday. It seems clear that Stigend will start working with Garstan, but what should Modtryth be assigned to? Lommy would be happy to write something relating to her work on thu-fri if there would be something to write on. So have you any ideas?

I can write us to the breakfast today / tomorrow, so we could then be ready to receive our instructions. Is that Okay with you? Or are we going to jump forwards earlier? Lommy said even that would be ok, for she could then post kind of backwards, remembering the beginning of her duties at the Mead Hall.

[Laiudanama]

Lay-oo-ee? Indeed, that would be pretty much the way I imagined it being said - sweet, toffee goodness...;)

Not really sure how to lay out this character introduction, although I\'ve looked through the last few pages of this discussion thread: I\'ll just give a brief run down of him here, then make a post on the game thread (although I\'m waiting for a response from Firefoot by PM before I do so - but may just get impatient and leave the end open, as I\'m not sure what time zone Firefoot is in...)

Ok, basically, my character\'s name is Trystan, a 19 year old Gondorian boy (or man, depending on how you view it, I guess: he\'s older than me, but in my head he\'s more like a boy - kinda scruffy, shady). He\'s basically a vagabond, a runaway, a petty thief; generally he\'s only ever been in trouble for minor offences, a broken window, a couple of minor crimes - but recently he\'s found himself on the run from rather higher authorities as involvement with a nasty individual caused events to rather spiral out of his control. That was in Dol Amroth, just under a month ago: now, after a few weeks on the road, the skint Trystan has found himself at Eorling Mead Hall - and while it must be stressed that he really isn\'t a bad character, he is, however, one in need of money, and fast...

Anyway. Hope that\'s an alright introduction to Trys - I\'ll get a first post up as soon as I can, or as soon as Firefoot replies, whichever :)

EDIT: I\'ve changed it to \'Dol Amroth\' not \'Minas Tirith\'. Thanks for reminding me, Feanor

[JennyHallu]

Lai...all my characters are from Dol Amroth, albeit very high in the nobility, and are about to return there for a time. Would we have heard of the lad or his escapades, or would rumor of that not have reached the upper echelon?

[Laiudanama]

Woopsie, I just changed it to Minas Tirith - although if you wish, I can keep it as Dol Amroth, I guess it would be better for interaction. In fact, yes, yes indeed, I shall change it back to Dol Amroth! And I think that yes, it might well have done, maybe...I will PM you with details if you wish, although they are fairly sketchy at this point?

[JennyHallu]

PM me when you have details. It shouldn't be important for a while, perhaps not until Lin's return to Edoras. While she may indeed have heard the tale while at home, I doubt she would think much of it until confronted with the lad himself.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I have a thought. Would you be interested, Lai, in having your Trystan already have met (and possibly not in the best of circumstances) my Farahil, who is, scarily enough, in the stable right now with him?

You see, Farahil's past is simply waiting for me to write it down. It's not solid yet, though there are certainly a few outstanding features. But he and his brother, Adragil, are the types that find themselves right in the middle of most anything interesting, and would have been in and out of Dol Amroth frequently at just about all times up to a few "days" back. There's every chance, if you're interested, that they might have met this young trouble maker, or at least have heard about him. It could be interesting and terribly fun to write the details of, if you're interested.

Of course, if you've already got things in store, don't feel at all bad about ignoring me.

[Laiudanama]

Shall we adjourn to PM, dear lady? ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

We can. Do you have AIM or MSN? Or heck, even Yahoo IM? That might be quicker.

[Celuien]

Tomorrow morning, I'm leaving town and will be away until approximately July 28. While away, I may or may not have access to the Downs depending on firewall restrictions in the place where I'll be staying. Needless to say, if this site is blocked I won't be able to post.

However, even if I can't get here directly, lmp has my e-mail address and will be keeping me informed of MH events. Thus, I'll still be able to write responses and send them back to be posted. *Round of applause for our good Innkeeper* Jenny is doing the same for AiE. *Applause for Jenny* No fear that my characters will suddenly stop responding to events. Am I obsessed enough? :D

If I can get here, I'll be back to my usual posting routine by the 8th. And if so, so much the better. If I can't, that will be okay too, though I'll miss coming here to check in, of course. :)

That is all.

[piosenniel]

If you see an 'edited by piosenniel' on your Mead Hall post, I've removed the signature from it.

~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

lmp

I just talked with Lommy on the phone. She's still in eastern Finland but will have a chance to get online on Thursday or Friday. It seems clear that Stigend will start working with Garstan, but what should Modtryth be assigned to? Lommy would be happy to write something relating to her work on thu-fri if there would be something to write on. So have you any ideas?Eodwine assigns that particular matter to Saeryn. Feanor? :p But seriously, Modtryth would certainly be most helpful as a general around-the-Hall launderer, cleaner, go-forer.

I can write us to the breakfast today / tomorrow, so we could then be ready to receive our instructions. Is that Okay with you?That's fine.

Thanks for the character intro, Laiudanama. Looks good. Trystan. Hmmmm..... That looks like a Dunlending name, does it not, Anguirel? :p Just a joke, Lai, we've sort of adopted a general notion that Dunlendings are to the Welsh as the Eorlings are to the Anglo-Saxons. But that's just for fun.

Good interplay there, Jenny & Feanor, picking up on the Dol Amroth connection!

[Folwren]

I've just got back from a long time of absence and not being able to keep up. Could I be informed of where we are in time? How many days after the court date is it?

And also, who has left the inn?

I will read a few of the most recent posts, and I will scan the others real quick, but I would like not to have to really read all of them if at all possible.

-- Folwren

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

It is currently the morning after the court date. It will be a brief day before a couple-day time jump. Lin and Farahil are leaving this morning for Dol Amroth. Leof is in the stable with Farahil; Degas is in the courtyard with Garstan's daughter and Lin; Eodwine is just around the corner from them; Kara appears to be in the kitchen; everyone else is either still asleep or just rising, I believe, as it's just dawn now. Lai's Trystan just showed up, which might prolong and/or complicate things a little, but in a fun way, as he's an outlaw from Dol Amroth that Farahil may or may not have encountered recently. Does that help?

[Folwren]

Yes, thank you, it does.

If this day is short, can I skip writing in it? It will take a few days, correct? And it will take less time if I do not join in. Next week, Monday morning through Friday afternoon, is my last week for working at camp. If this Day at the Hall takes that long, it would be great, because then I wouldn't fall behind at all, especially if it's not necessary that Thornden comes in at all in this part of the story.

He would, however, be out there to say goodbye, probably. If I'm not around to write that, then someone can mention that he was there, and maybe Jenny could write that part and have him say a few words. I don't care that much.

What do you all think?

-- Folwren

EDIT: Come to think of it - if Thornden is needed in help with this Trystan fellow, then I'll write. He looks like a handful and Leof is too little to manage such a handful. Also, Eodwine is wanting to say a proper goodbye to Lin, so it wouldn't be very nice to him if he had to deal with it.

[Laiudanama]

If you see an 'edited by piosenniel' on your Mead Hall post, I've removed the signature from it.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realise we were meant to remove them - will do so in future.

I've made a second post, but I accept that I've made quite alot of use of the characters of Farahil and Leofric, Feanor and Firefoot: if you aren't happy with this or want me to change anything, I'd be happy to do so. Hope this is alright, anyway :)

[Anguirel]

I don't suppose Manawyth could be called in to help protect the horses, hee hee, hee, and keep down those filthy outlaws, ha ha ha...

Actually, I see the potential for an interesting conversation. Lai, our characters should have a drink together some time...

[Laiudanama]

Come to think of it - if Thornden is needed in help with this Trystan fellow, then I'll write. He looks like a handful and Leof is too little to manage such a handful. Also, Eodwine is wanting to say a proper goodbye to Lin, so it wouldn't be very nice to him if he had to deal with it.
Oo-er. Just to establish that Trystan really isn't a bad character - he just kind of...got involved with a few rather nasty individuals...All will become clear eventually, but he's a nice guy - really! ;)

[Firefoot]

Mostly all right. Leof's a tad too accepting in the last paragraph - how about instead of "grinned back, as if in relief," put "nodded slowly, as if in acceptance" or something? Other than that, it looks fine.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Farahil... I should have provided the link (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=466468&postcount=62)sooner, but I didn't really expect that anybody would need to know much about him. :D It may or may not matter... he's 29 years old and he's big. He's very muscular and is extremely imposing when he wants to be. He moves silently and is trained in the use of just about every weapon. They're what he loves, so he takes his time to master them. If you want the image in my head, think black panther. Sleek, dangerous, dark, silent.

It's unlikely that Trystan would have interacted with him before, though he very well might have seen him if he spends any amount of time near the water. Farahil, I expect, recognizes Trystan as a young scoundrel but as of the moment has no inclination to do anything about it. If he finds out more though, he will, and Trystan will be no match for him. The lad'll need to be quick on his feet, as Farahil is interested, if only a little. Lucky for Trys, Farahil's leaving very soon. :cool:

[Folwren]

Is he bigger or taller than Thornden? In Thornden's profile in the Abduction in Edoras, Thornden was said to be 6'4". I met my cousin the other day after not seeing him for seven years and he's 6'4" and huge. My eyes just about popped out of my head. I'd no idea what an imposing figure that would cut. I'd seen 6 feet and 6'2", but two inches really ads a lot. . .

Anyway, I was wondering where you think Farahil stood.

-- Folwren

[Firefoot]

A lot depends on build, as well. 6'4" and thin is a lot different than 6'4" and burly. My pastor (who just left :( ) was 6'4" but not really an imposing figure at all...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Farahil is smaller than Thornden but could match him easily in a bare-handed fight. Bad description, I know, but I'm preoccupied. I'll try again another time.

[Folwren]

Firefoot: Right, yes. I understand. Thornden's somehwere in between. . .neither thin nor particular burly. He's not imposing, so to speak, but he still makes a striking figure all in all, I think. I've never thought about it too much. I should try to draw a picture. But for some reason, my men always turn out looking too femenine. My girls are pretty (:D) but my men just don't cut it. . .

Fea: That's fine. I only wanted to know how tall he was. Farahil is far more experienced in fighting anyway, so I had little doubt that he could easily take Thornden if it came to that, but that wasn't why I asked.

-- Folwren

[Thinlómien]

Am I wrong if I assume we're still having the same day in the hall tomorrow RL? With this new arrival and all... (Welcome, Lai, by the way... :))

I see the situation is going on right now and there's nothing I'd need to add at the moment, so I could do my post tomorrow.

Fea, could you PM me Modtryth's duties and the way Saeryn would assign them as soon as possible either writing the whole assignation or giving me guidelines how Saeryn would say the things. Then I could write the post tomorrow and put it up. Then if you had any complaints you could tell me and I could just edit the post. Sounds fine?

[Kath]

So I didn't actually need to post, and I just assumed that the girl Trys was talking to was Kara, but never mind :)

Just yell at me if a) I shouldn't have posted or b) I misused someone.

[JennyHallu]

Great post, Fea. One thing only...Lin's family would give permission to court, but a handfasting is a formal betrothal, and I don't think they would give permission for that before speaking to Lin herself.

[Laiudanama]

So I didn't actually need to post, and I just assumed that the girl Trys was talking to was Kara, but never mind

Just yell at me if a) I shouldn't have posted or b) I misused someone.
Haven't yet looked at the thread today, but that was what I intended - I didn't mention her name so it could be left open.

Just a quick note to say that I have my Gold Duke of Edinburgh expedition starting tomorrow - for those non-Brits, this basically means I am being cast into the wilderness that is North Lancashire for the next four days without any access to computers, phones, basic...anything...fun times! So Trys is at your disposal until probably Tuesday evening or Wednesday morning (GMT) - be kind ;)

[Kath]

Haven't yet looked at the thread today, but that was what I intended - I didn't mention her name so it could be left open.
Good, good :)

Hey and good luck with the DofE, I remember that. I hope for your sake it doesn't rain, trying to put up tents in muddy ground is just not fun.

[Laiudanama]

Hmm - was going to make a post, but am rather stalled now in waiting for Saeryn to reply to Nain, and I shouldn't like to step on anyone's toes by butting in and taking her away. Unfortunately this means I won't be able to make a post until my return from the wilderness :(

I hope for your sake it doesn't rain, trying to put up tents in muddy ground is just not fun Gah. Forget just the tents and the mud, we'll have the sun to combat this time; I'm not entirely sure which is worse, to be sweaty and sunburnt, or just plain soggy. Still, there is always that saviour upon which I relied worryingly last time: sweet, sweet Nurofen...;)

[Kath]

You could always put the post on here and then when Fea has replied to Form pio can put it in the right place for you?

And yes, painkillers good :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Saeryn post finally up... sorry about the delay, Lai. Blame my boss for scheduling me at times when normal people are out having fun.

[Thinlómien]

Since Trystan and Saeryn haven't discussed yet and this is to be after it, but I won't probably have a chance to get online 'til Tuesday, so I put this here for pio to place after Saeryn's and Trystan's discussion. (I have pmed pio.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADDED TO GAME THREAD


Thinlómien's post


The morning had been a pleasant one for Modtryth. She enjoyed the new place. The new home, she corrected herself. She wondered how everything would turn out and how would their little family settle in the lifenof the eorl's hall. Cnebba at least had found his place, and was clearly enjoying the new place and the new company. Everything will settle as it will, no need to fret over that, she reached the same conclusion as always. She was confident their little family would find its place in the hall, in one way or another.

Modtryth watched the two children, Lèoðern and Garmund, run to Cnebba. She had no reason to hide her smile. She turned to her husband. Stigend was smiling too. Oh, he doesn't look anxious, Modtryth remarked to herself half-seriously.

Then lady Saeryn caught her attention. The lady called Modtryth to her. She gestured Modtrth to sit opposite to herself. "Yes, my lady?" Modtryth asked. "I'm to give you your duties", Lady Saeryn answered. She looked at Modtryth thoughtfully and asked: "What kind of work you are used to do? What would you like to do?"

Modtryth didn't except the last question. Maybe it showed in her face, for Lady Saeryn smiled. "I have mostly done cleaning, cooking, looking after children and such. I'd be pleased to do it in the eorl's hall too", Modtryth answered simply.

"We have two cooks, Kara and Frodides, already, so I doubt there's need for kitchen staff", Lady Saeryn said. "We don't have very small children here so that rules out the babysitting... So I guess that leaves us with cleaning." Modtryth nodded. The work was familiar for her, and so were the words. She was about to open her mouth to tell the Lady that she was fine with her new duties and to thank her, but something in the Lady's expression made her not. There was something strange in her eyes and Modtryth could not imagine what was she thinking about.

Then lady Saeryn smiled again. There was a shrewd glint in her eyes. "But surely cleaning is not all you can do. And besides, there's not enough work for a person who only cleans. Kara and Frodides clean the kitchen and the tables in the hall and I do some cleaning myself. Have you ever done shopping for a big household?" At first Modtryth thought she had misheard the lady's words. She was offering her, a half-dunlending and a newcomer, a position of trust.

"Well, have you?" Lady Saeryn repeated her question seriously, though there was a hint of amusement in her eyes. Modtryth nodded. "Yes, my lady. I've done it twice. In the place I was born in and I worked in for many years, Lord Godhere's household in Western Wold. The second such job was in Field Marshal Laudwine's household." She didn't add that in both places she had had to work at least for months to achieve the position.

"Good", Lady Saeryn replied. "Then I can trust you with it." She looked at the dark-haired woman. Her face was serious. "Thank you, my lady. I'm honoured to receive such a duty", Modtryth replied, still wondering if it was really happening. "I won't prove untrustworthy."

"I am the one to oversee your work, both cleaning and shopping", Lady Saeryn told her. "The household doesn't need anything from the town today. I think you could start with the laundry. Come, I'll show you", she continued.

Modtryth rose to follow the Lady. She had heard only good of her, but now it was proved. Unlike so many, she managed to gain my respect in a very short time, Modtryth thought, wondering if it was good or bad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fea, if I've mistreated Saeryn or she's un-saerynish (or too conspirational) or she has something more important to do than show Modtryth the laundry-thing, just tell me and I'll correct it.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Nope. Perfect.

[piosenniel]

Can someone alert me when this has happened?


Since Trystan and Saeryn haven't discussed yet and this is to be after it, but I won't probably have a chance to get online 'til Tuesday, so I put this here for pio to place after Saeryn's and Trystan's discussion.

So I can place Thinlómien's post . . .

Thanks!

~*~ Pio

[Laiudanama]

...and due to something 'orrible having happened to my knee that has made it swell up something naaasty, I'm back from Gold early. There goes D of E for another year. Oh, foils, foils, foils. :(

But at least it means I can have a post up somewhat sooner: I'll try to get a response up tonight.

[Nogrod]

Can someone alert me when this has happened?
So I can place Thinlómien's post . . .
~*~ PioI suppose Lommy meant, that that should be put in to the thread after Saeryn and Trystan have talked - which has not yet happened.

She was thinking, that because she could herself be online only on Tuesday (RL), things would go on and there would be a need to adjust her post to a position that serves the story.

Clearly there seems to be no dire need as the game goes forwards very slowly, but if something actually happens before Tuesday (and Saeryn & Trystan have their discussion managed), then surely Lommy's post should be included on the thread there?

[littlemanpoet]

Noggie, I think that you can figure that we'll make it work one way or another.

[Nogrod]

Noggie, I think that you can figure that we'll make it work one way or another.Surely. I see no problem here. Just tried to answer Pio's question.

lmp & Celuien: Let's see the renovating strategies tomorrow / the day after that (RL). I'll try to make some suggestions and Celuien should make some too. As we have an understanding, Eodwine might call us to do just that on the thread. :)

[littlemanpoet]

As soon as Jenny posts up Linduial's answer to Eodwine and the two give each other good-bye, Eodwine will call Garstan and Stigend for a planning 'session'.

[Laiudanama]

Mind if Feanor and I slip Trystan into Eodwine's busy timetable at some point? ;) Sorry to be a nuisance.

[littlemanpoet]

Let's have Saeryn take the initiative with that, okay? :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Lai, LMP and I have discussed it and I'll take care of the situation. Eodwine won't be needed. :smokin: I'll post up within the next day or so. I'm not at home again until tomorrow, so I can't guarantee a time, but it'll be soon.

[littlemanpoet]

If you already have something prepared, Feanor, I'm sorry to upstage you but I had a brilliant idea (well I think so anyway) and will post it up post haste. It's gonna be fun for Lai, I think.... :D ..... wellllll.... at least I hope so.... ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me? Prepared? Have you forgotten to whom you're communicating? I almost always work off the cuff. I've pre-written posts twice, maybe three times since Beth first convinced me to write in The White Horse forever ago. Just like college: last minute work. And I can qualify the procrastination with professional ability if you don't believe it's a good thing. :D :cool:

[Laiudanama]

Ooh, that was low. Ooh...

Fun? I'd hate to have you as a teacher, elempee ;) Anyway, I've made a reply. That was mean...;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I haven't laughed so hard in... ooh, this is nasty. :D

[Celuien]

Okay. Garstan and children have come to say good-bye to Lin. Having given the tour of the current construction, he'll be back to discuss plans with Stigend in a moment. Hope that's okay. :)

[Nogrod]

Having given the tour of the current construction, he'll be back to discuss plans with Stigend in a moment. Hope that's okay. :)To me it is. I'll try to have a post today for Stigend. Should I expect Garstan to be back at the table by then, or Eodwine? (That would be in 12 hours time from now, about)

[Celuien]

To me it is. I'll try to have a post today for Stigend. Should I expect Garstan to be back at the table by then, or Eodwine? (That would be in 12 hours time from now, about)
Well, I'll have to wait for Jenny to post to say good-bye, so Garstan will come back after that...

[JennyHallu]

*sigh*

Agh...busy day...and my time yesterday was cut short by the long process of filing an accident report with MP. (No injuries, minimal, localized, mostly cosmetic damage, not my fault, other guy will pay to fix my car...just took a while.)

I will try to get a post up before my lunch hour. I'm going to make it fairly brief, and set Farahil and Linduial out on their way at the end of it.

Also working on an idea for Marenil, Eodwine, & Thornden, (no kidnappings, don't worry), but I'll save that for when I have more time.

[JennyHallu]

Double...but I wanted to make sure this was noticed:

Celuien, I've reread your post and noticed something I'd missed before. I really don't think Lin would have the ability one-handed to lift a hefty and squirmy five-year-old. If it weren't for the broken wrist...

I'm going to write my post as though Saeryn obligingly lifted Leodern up to hugging range and go from there. If that sounds good, just edit accordingly.

[Celuien]

If it weren't for the broken wrist...
Oops. :o Will edit later.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Pio, now would be a good time to post Lommy's. Or I can add it myself to my own post after work...?

-------------

EDIT:

Done . . . and thanks!

~*~ Pio

[JennyHallu]

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts? He's working on taking the reins of the stewardship. LMP, I'd also like some word from you on just what, exactly, Marenil is responsible for. I would have thought the Steward would be handling hiring, honestly, at least for artisan labor and tasks involving access to the coffers. And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...Saeri's new to the job, and Marenil hasn't had to deal with female authority higher than a housekeeper for 15 years. He took on a lot of the roles of Farlen's Lady...

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties, as well, perhaps, as those duties Eodwine prefers to make himself.
And as steward, shouldn't Marenil be attending the meeting between the Lord and Lady and the contractors?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts?
Sure I can. Just had to go to work first before I posted again. :) I can have Saeryn ask Modtryth to send Marenil down when he's done...?

And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...
Oh, certainly. Saeryn's got experience in her old household, but not in this one. Same goes for Marenil. No doubt they'll be stepping on each other's toes left and right until Eodwine sorts things out. :D

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties,
I agree, that way I know which rules I'm breaking when I have her doing somebody else's. :cool:

[JennyHallu]

I agree, that way I know which rules I'm breaking when I have her doing somebody else's. :cool: Exactly.

Of course there's also the joy of eventually getting a functional, smoothrunning household...if we feel like it. (And eventually we probably will. Settling new people in with fewer hiccups allows the other trouble we create for ourselves to be more far fetched.

Oh and a question for Lommy: How fluent is Modtryth in the Rohirric tongue?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Settling new people in with fewer hiccups allows the other trouble we create for ourselves to be more far fetched.
So true. Adventures are just such a pain when you're busy with chores, you know? :cool:

[Nogrod]

Oh and a question for Lommy: How fluent is Modtryth in the Rohirric tongue?She will be away for more than a week, but as we have discussed and created our characters at length together, I can answer this.

Modtryth is a native speaker. She has been born and is raised in Rohan, in a rohanian household (his father being one too) and is pretty knowledgeable of her language skills... :) She might have a bit "northern-rohanian" accent as Stigend, but that should be not a problem.

[Nogrod]

I hope our planning-party will assemble today. I had already written a post to start it but then I found a few things I had to check with Celuien and lmp first (I've PM'd them and hope to have their answers soon enough).

Fea: did you write Saeryn to the table where all of us (Eodwine, Garstan and Stigend) were sitting or somewhere where Eodwine was alone?

[JennyHallu]

Ha! Fea...Marenil "in need of a diversion"? Saeri has no idea what a juggernaut Marenil's new appointment has released...hehehe...He'll eventually give her a "talking-to" about the role of Eodwine's Lady...

And I think we may need a full-time housekeeper, especially as the building grows. And I wonder if we should build a second residential wing. The one we have is getting filled up.

Ok...my ideas on jobs:

Eodwine:
oversees all these, of course, and should have at least a finger, and no more than a hand, in every pie, unless something goes wrong. Saeryn would probably take a more active role in overseeing the housekeeper than Eodwine.

Saeryn:
Oversees housekeeper
Hostess for guests
Has authority to make decisions for Eodwine in the lord's absence


Marenil (Steward):

Keeps the books for the Emnet
Hears and filters callers on Eodwine (as any good secretary would)
Oversees contractual labor, housekeeper, almbudsman


Has authority to make decisions for Eodwine in the lord's and lady's absenceThornden (Almbudsman):

Spokesman for Eodwine or his steward
Tax collector
Herald of sorts
Eodwine's squire and aide-de-camp in time of war

Not-yet-existent housekeeper (Modtryth?):

Keeps the books for the Hall (Answerable to Marenil)
Makes lists for market days
Final decision on purchases of foodstuffs.


Oversees domestic labor (Answerable to Saeryn)Kara (Cook):
Prepares menus and meals for household and guests.
Keeps inventory of pantries and larders.

Leof (Ostler):
Cares for and exercises horses, mules, and ponies of household and guests.
Cares for and repairs tack and equipment thereof
Keeps inventories of grainbins and other usable supplies

Trystan (general labor):


:D Does what he's told



? (Maid):

Does general cleaning, cares for guest and household rooms.
Does or helps with laundry and mending.

Does or helps with market.Helps in kitchen on feastdays?
Garwine (Master-of-Arms):
Oversees security of the Lord's holdings
Oversees mercenaries and armsmen sworn to Eodwine (I assume at some point Eodwine shall need more than one armsman, especially with the rapid growth of his household)
Keeps books for these expenses.

Garstan (Stonemason) & Stigend (Carpenter):
Artisans sworn to Eodwine
Performs work to rebuild Hall...we'll have to rethink that when the Hall's done.
Characters who aren't quite guests:
Manawyth (Bard):
His role as bard is one with rather loosely defined duties, and as such he falls really under the purview of no one but Eodwine, just because he's not a laborer to need direct supervision.

Lys:
Though I assume he will take up some duty when he heals (Pageboy? Groom?), he's not yet capable of it.

The children (Garmund, Cnebba, Lèoðern): duties not really defined...probably more as helpers to their own parents than anything more formal.

Guests:
Linduial
Degas
Falco
Nain

I'll edit more into this as I think of it and write it up. For now, what do ya'll think?EDIT: Added more people and tasks. I don't know whom of the servants of the hall are literate or not...Marenil is, and obviously the lord and lady, and Thornden, but I don't think anyone's considered it much beyond those. I've also added tasks it looks to me could use filled, that aren't right now. Marenil may advise keeping an eye out for laborers to fill these positions.

[Nogrod]

And I wonder if we should build a second residential wing. The one we have is getting filled up.Funny you should mention that. I had just suggested via PM to lmp & Celuien, that as a part of the renovation we could build more lodging or something and not just a long corridor with no other functions... Marenil might bring that up?

[Kath]

That looks fine to me Jenny, except that I think the 'making list for market day' is more likely to be Kara and Frodides' job rather than the housekeeper, as they will have a better idea of what they've used and what is needed.

[JennyHallu]

Things needed for market day encompasses far more than just groceries. I figured that Kara and Frodides would prepare a grocery list and hand it off to the housekeeper, who would add what other supplies were needed: feed for horses, soap, needle and thread, cloth, clean rushes for the floor...

I hadn't yet sorted out Kara and Frodides' duties...I'll do that when I get home. Workday's about over.

[Kath]

Ok that sounds about fair.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ooh, fun. Saeryn won't be overly happy, I can see it already. You see, she really likes the role of housekeeper. She won't hand it over without a fight. Even if trying to balance that and ladyship will kill her by way of exhaustion. :)

I can see a confrontation with Eodwine in the near future. "Eodwine, tell your steward that his suggestions of my incapability are entirely unwelcome. And stop being so disagreeable, you're getting on my nerves." Mwahaha.

[littlemanpoet]

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts? He's working on taking the reins of the stewardship. LMP, I'd also like some word from you on just what, exactly, Marenil is responsible for. I would have thought the Steward would be handling hiring, honestly, at least for artisan labor and tasks involving access to the coffers. And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...Saeri's new to the job, and Marenil hasn't had to deal with female authority higher than a housekeeper for 15 years. He took on a lot of the roles of Farlen's Lady...

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties, as well, perhaps, as those duties Eodwine prefers to make himself.
And as steward, shouldn't Marenil be attending the meeting between the Lord and Lady and the contractors?I haven't time to answer this right now, busy busy busy! :eek: Except for this: Yes, Marenil should be part of the meeting too. Eodwine will be apologizing to him for his failure to think of it. What I'd like is if Marenil could make these very suggestions in the RP that you're making here. What do you think? It could be interesting.

Nogrod, please post up. I won't have time to introduce the thing. Perhaps you could just put suitable words in Eodwine's mouth?

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.

Let the conflict ensue! :D

And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that? ;)

[JennyHallu]

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.

Which reminds me: If you have not selected and been assigned a room, please PM me with your choice so I can update that. See the Eorling Mead Hall map (linked to in the first post of this thread). If you chose one and I never updated the map, PM me with a scolding and a reminder.

Oh, and I updated the job descriptions I developed above...LMP, did you see those?

[Celuien]

Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.
Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)...

Edit coming soon for my post. In fact, I'm doing it now! :)

[Laiudanama]

Trystan (general labor):

Does what he's told :D
And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that?

Not sure I deserved all that...

Middle Earth karma, no doubt: if so, cleaning out the toilets is actually a fairly light punishment for Trystan's sins...*trails off into ominous silence* Mysterious, non? *shrugs* Nyeh, give me my small pleasures where I can find them ;)

Well, with all that hard work, Trystan's mind may have time to wander - I spy a revelatory kind of a post a-coming, cap'n...

[Celuien]

Post edited, as promised. :)

Oh, and Nogrod, I'll second lmp:
Let the conflict ensue! :D
Though Garstan, like his author, is somewhat conflict averse, so don't expect him to particularly up for a fight. ;)

[Nogrod]

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

lmp:
I hope Eodwine turned out okay enough. I made that part in somewhat in a hurry, but will correct everything you want me to, surely.

[Celuien]

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...
I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate. ;)

[Nogrod]

I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate. ;)Has anyone a clue, whether the kind of metal sheet -things that they put between the ovens and the walls just to prevent fires were already in use those times? In any given actual or fictional world we are trying to construct here... :)

[Celuien]

Has anyone a clue, whether the kind of metal sheet -things that they put between the ovens and the walls just to prevent fires were already in use those times? In any given actual or fictional world we are trying to construct here...
It seems that I've been drawn back into reseaching again. :D I looked around, but couldn't find specifics on oven construction. I did find some information that supports Garstan's plan, though. :D ;)

Medieval kitchen (http://library.thinkquest.org/10949/fief/medkitchen.html)

More details on Early English Architecture, including a brief section on the kitchen. (http://www.octavia.net/anglosaxon/earlyEnglishArchitecture.htm)

Quoted here:

At Goltho in Lincolnshire the fortified burh of a wealthy lord has been excavated. It comprised a bow-sided timber hall nearly 25 m (82 feet) long and nearly 10 m wide (32.8 feet); a smaller kitchen building set well away from the hall for fire protection; a long narrow weaving shed about 20 m long where the women of the burh would have stood at their looms for the daily labour of wool weaving; and a separate bower building.

Private defended burhs of wealthy thegns, ealdorman, and nobles could include both large timber halls and smaller stone buildings. The remains of a Saxon masonry building of 2.4 m (8 feet) tall stone walls have been excavated at Eynsford castle, Kent. A wood framed roof may have rested upon the walls, or they may have carried another wood-framed story above. This building had an excavated floor some 1.5 m (5 feet) below the ground, and was surrounded by a ditch 5 m (16 feet) wide and 3 m (10 feet) deep. Heavily fortified as it was it may have housed a powerful lord. On Lower Brook Street in Winchester was found the remains of a square stone building of at least two stories dating from about 800. It is part of a high status, secular, residential homestead.

At Sulgrave, Northamptonshire excavations have revealed the presence of a large 10th c timber hall, another lordly residence. Like many great halls it was constructed of closely set vertical timbers. At Sulgrave these sat upon a laid, mortar-less stone foundation. At one end of the great hall was a partition which led to a smaller room - perhaps a store room. A smaller detached timber building, which may have been a kitchen, was built outside. Another building on the site had stone walls more than 2 m (6 1/2') high - possibly a strong room or tower.

Anyone else have information on medieval construction methods?

[Nogrod]

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow)I think here might be bolded one more remnant of modern thinking... :)

1) A lord, if he is having people to live with him as workers, will have fixed expences over them no matter what they do - or whether they do nothing. It's not like today when hiring a carpenter or a stoneworker costs you a small fortune.
2) A lord straight under the supervision of the king would have quite nice opportunities to any resources. Even a layman might be able to go and hack stone from somewhere or possibly even fell wood. Every square-inch of the world was not owned by some individual or other back then. And surely if some lands were assigned to the king, he would surely look benevolently towards a small request by his Eorl...
3) In a Mead Hall like this there seems to be ample workforce and equipment to do all those things on their own, so no need to hire or pay for any outsiders. Eodwine could just say: now you three work the next days getting us some stone from place X?

It's completely another thing then, that at least Stigend would require baulks (or building timber) that have been peeled and dried at least three years beforehand so that they would not "live" any more and thence warp or twist as they will be made part of a building... But surely the king at least would come to back Eodwine on that? He could give some from his stock of dried baulks and just require the matching amount of fresh ones to be given back to him (which Stigend with some help from the others could then produce). Or something...

But I believe that much could be done with no additional expenses in that era's economy.

[Nogrod]

It seems that I've been drawn back into reseaching again.
I did find some information that supports Garstan's plan, though.

the fortified burh of a wealthy lord... Private defended burhs of wealthy thegns, ealdorman, and nobles ... Heavily fortified as it was it may have housed a powerful lord. ...It is part of a high status, secular, residential homestead.
...another lordly residence.I hope Garstan will stick to this. (Although all of those references didn't mention a separate kitchen... ;) )

As I said to Celuien in a PM, "I surely see the idea behind the fire-protection. In a big castle with a wealthy lord you could afford that kind of things, and surely the well-being of their kitchen personnel was not nearest to their hearts, I suppose... Stigend surely thinks about the matter from his point of view: looking at the conditions of people having to do the work in the buildings and how to build economically..."

And then I started thinking whether I have just contradicted myself with my last post... :rolleyes:

Yes, I know, that at least in Northern Europe the poor and the middle-class built their ovens tightly to the walls to give maximum warmth up to the 20th century. But clearly the wood had been free on the earlier times at least... So it must be labour-costly then? Just imagine the amounts of firewood needed in a Mead Hall! Well, as I said earlier, the Eorl need not to worry, what his subordinates do as they cost him the same every day, but surely if other projects are hampered by just getting enough firewood - or if it is a sparser commodity (you have to make long trips to find it or something) - it would be wise to try to be economical in that way.

But surely: Stigend's way of looking at the question stems from his experience of how things are done where he has been working. Garstan probably has a better argument if we look at it from the perspective of the safety. Stigend just looks at labour costs and the comfort of the people working in the buildings they construct...

Haa! This is fun! So far I have just managed with general education, but soon I will have to start searching for additional information too... A nice little disagreement between different schools of the building-trade! :D

[Celuien]

I hope Garstan will stick to this. (Although all of those references didn't mention a separate kitchen... ;) )
:D No. Not all of them did. Just the ones that were talking about safety precautions taken by the wealthy. ;)

I'm working on a post now.

[JennyHallu]

Nice discussion: But Nogrod, I fear I must bring up a point of procedure. Any kitchen hearth in the middle ages would NEVER go out. If it goes out, you have to start with a cold hearth in the morning, and it can take hours to get it to cooking heat, especially since a kitchen fire is mostly coals. What you do is rake it over so that the coals are insulated, and there's no live flame, but that can still burn down a house.

Ever wonder where we got the phrase "Keep the home-fires burning"? A Middle-Ages hearth-fire isn't ever put out, and I think Stigend would know that. That's equally true, by the by, in a serf's hovel and a lord's summer palace. That's another reason a kitchen in a castle might be built separately: with a constant flame, heat against the building's walls in summer would make the building near unbearable.

[littlemanpoet]

Trying to catch up here: I'll just say this: post #889 is absolutely sensational! Well done, Jenny! I'd rep you but I have to spread it around..... :p

[littlemanpoet]

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.
:D This is one thing on which Eodwine is not likely to budge. He's got it in his head that this is going to be a true northern mead hall where guests are treated with magnanimity (completely different definition of hospitality there), and that householders are bound by loyalty rather than pay. Bring it on! :)

[Nogrod]

Nice discussion: But Nogrod, I fear I must bring up a point of procedure. Any kitchen hearth in the middle ages would NEVER go out. If it goes out, you have to start with a cold hearth in the morning, and it can take hours to get it to cooking heat, especially since a kitchen fire is mostly coals. What you do is rake it over so that the coals are insulated, and there's no live flame, but that can still burn down a house.

Ever wonder where we got the phrase "Keep the home-fires burning"? A Middle-Ages hearth-fire isn't ever put out, and I think Stigend would know that. That's equally true, by the by, in a serf's hovel and a lord's summer palace. That's another reason a kitchen in a castle might be built separately: with a constant flame, heat against the building's walls in summer would make the building near unbearable.Yes I know. I have indeed "lived" in a cottage like that in my childhood for short times - and been in old farmsteads in Finland later. The oven is left smouldering for the night and then in the morning it's relit or "woken up" by just raking the coals and adding more wood.

The idea of an outdoor oven / grill was just to solve the summer-heat problem - and during summer the oven outside wouldn't be any more colder than one inside in the morning...

And as I put Stigend to think to himself, most of the fires were caused by total carelessness or bad construction - after all, stone is not so flammable :D and even a hot stone-oven doesn't set fire to a wooden wall next to it just by itself when it is made large enough. Oftentimes the construction was made in a way that there was the oven, then there was a stone/brick wall built around it. Then depending on the size of the building, that stone/brickwall might be anything to ten yards on both sides of the oven - so that wall comes warm and heats the building, but from the fringe areas (from where it is attached to the wooden wall) it's not hot but only warm.

Okay. Just to add...

[Nogrod]

Even though I first decided not to, I still had to make a few checks...

This I found most enlightening to all of us who are planning putting up a kitchen in the Mead Hall...

The kitchen remained largely unaffected by architectural advances throughout the middle ages; open fire remained the only method of heating food. European medieval kitchens were dark, smokey, and sooty places, whence their name "smoke kitchen". In European medieval cities around the 10th to 12th centuries, the kitchen still used an open fire hearth in the middle of the room. In wealthy homes, the ground floor was often used as a stable while the kitchen was located on the floor above, like the bedroom and the hall. In castles and monasteries, the living and working areas were separated; the kitchen was sometimes moved to a separate building, and thus couldn't serve anymore to heat the living rooms. In some castles the kitchen was retained in the same structure, but servants were strictly separated from nobles, by constructing separate spiral stone staircases for use of servants to bring food to upper levels. An extant example of such a medieval kitchen with servants's staircase is at Muchalls Castle in Scotland. In Japanese homes, the kitchen started to become a separate room within the main building at that time.

With the advent of the chimney, the hearth moved from the center of the room to one wall, and the first brick-and-mortar hearths were built. The fire was lit on top of the construction; a vault underneath served to store wood. Pots made of iron, bronze, or copper started to replace the pottery used earlier. The temperature was controlled by hanging the pot higher or lower over the fire, or placing it on a trivet or directly on the hot ashes. Using open fire for cooking (and heating) was risky; fires devastating whole cities occurred frequently.

Beginning in the late middle ages, kitchens in Europe lost their home-heating function even more and were increasingly moved from the living area into a separate room. The living room was now heated by tiled stoves, operated from the kitchen, which offered the huge advantage of not filling the room with smoke.

Freed from smoke and dirt, the living room thus began to serve as an area for social functions and increasingly became a showcase for the owner's wealth and was sometimes prestigiously furnished. In the upper classes, cooking and the kitchen were the domain of the servants, and the kitchen was set apart from the living rooms, sometimes even far from the dining room. Poorer homes often did not have a separate kitchen yet; they kept the one-room arrangement where all activities took place, or at the most had the kitchen in the entrance hall.

The medieval smoke kitchen remained common, especially in rural farmhouses and generally in poorer homes, until much later. In a few European farmhouses, the smoke kitchen was in regular use until the middle of the 20th century. These houses often had no chimney, but only a smoke hood above the fireplace, made of wood and covered with clay, and used to smoke meat. The smoke then rose more or less freely, warming the upstairs rooms and protecting the woodwork from vermin.The whole article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen#Middle_Ages

I also found many notes that Celuien was referring to, like this one:
The medieval kitchen was where all the dishes for the castle's meals were prepared. It was usually set away from the great hall, where most of the meals were served. This was to prevent a fire in the kitchen from spreading to the great hall. Fires happened often because all food was cooked over a fire or in an oven. However, because the kitchen was built away from the great hall, food often got cold on the trip from the kitchen to the great hall. Thus, an enclosed passageway of wood or stone would be constructed between the two. This would help to keep out the wind and keep the food warm on the tripI have bolded the important word: castle (and monasteries are talked at some texts too). I ran to this thing as I tried to find information from my copy of Viollet'Le-Duc's "Encyclopédie Médiévale" - all they talked was great castles...

PS. One thing we should consider is whether we are building an oven or an open fire hearth - or both?

[Celuien]

Good finds, Nogrod.

So I guess it's Eodwine's call about how grand he wants to be. A simple hall, or a more elaborate castle-like business. :D

I sort of like the idea of building an oven. I'd imagine the baked goods are somewhat nicer coming from an oven than they would be if made in a dish set in an open fire.

[JennyHallu]

I'm a little confused on where Eodwine gets his ideas of generosity. I can't find a definition of Anglo-Saxon guest-rights; the closest I can find is Greek xenia, which was highly formalized. And in Greece.

I fear Eodwine runs the risk of over-familiarity with his vassals and subjects, and Marenil shall work to correct that. If Eodwine insists on inviting anyone to stay as a guest of the hall, he will probably ensure those guest-rights only put so much of a burden on Eodwine: who has a large household to support already and no income besides his taxes, which must be used for more than just support of his house, but also for his reciprocal duties to his taxpayers. So he will encourage the idea that free-guests have rights to a pallet in the hall and a proscribed (and very simple) meal, much like a waystation for pilgrims in medieval Europe. I also wonder if, while freeguesting is one thing, care of a horse or packbeast shouldn't carry some nominal fee...that can be far more expensive than feeding a man.

And as for providing better and more space for Eodwine's household to live, Marenil is of the practical opinion that, while loyalty is a lovely thing, each of Eodwine's vassals has their own families and hides to look after, and without adequately providing for those, Eodwine doesn't fulfil his responsibilities as their lord. A married man should be able to have some private room and space to share with his wife, and Marenil sees these children as people who will only get older: and eventually need their own space. I think he is likely to suggest some sort of dormitory or barracks for single men with no dependents. That could be a very simple long, low hall, with a private room to serve as quarters and office for Garwine. He may also climb up into the attic space, and see what can be done there to convert it to quarters for older children or lower maids.

There should also be a proper ladies' bower (Especially in a Mead Hall: if you go by Beowulf the hall is a gathering place mainly for men, and the ladies congregate elsewhere after seeing to their men). In a household such as this, the ladies ought to be producing embroidered fabrics and weavings both for the comfort of their own hall, and to add to Eodwine's small pittance of an income. Also, a ladies' bower serves as an informal place for Saeryn to accept guests and petitioners who feel uncomfortable or uncertain coming to the lord himself. A stillroom, connected to the bower, is also a good idea. One of a Lady's tasks would be the concoction of perfumes and remedies for both the use of the household and for sale.

Marenil may also suggest that the form of the taxes should be changed. His suggestion: if Eodwine allowed his vassals (those that farm) to choose between taxes all in coin and taxes that are a portion of their produce (and makes it slightly more profitable to pay in produce...) he could use his contacts in Dol Amroth to sell his goods down there, far from where they are grown. My take on Dol Amroth has been to compare that land to Italy, with its poor quality, rocky soil. (Come on, obvious comparison...it's a principality) Great for sheep, and maybe some fruit plants...not so much for always-oh-so-necessary grain production. Selling down there could allow Eodwine to make a profit on his taxes, without having an ill-effect on his vassals.

Also, a portion of these agricultural 'tithes' could be kept for the consumption of the household, and lower the grocery bill a bit. A supply of grain could allow a hearty porridge to be made for free-guests, that could be always on the stove, and therefore readily available, and more expensive, elaborate meals prepared in smaller quantities, solely for the consumption of the household, without as large a drain on Eodwine's purse.

Also, oughtn't Eodwine be keeping chickens, a dairy cow, and a pig somewhere? Chickens are a constant supply of food, if managed correctly, a cow would provide milk, butter, and cheese (perhaps two cows would be needed, considering the size of the household...), and the expense of keeping one pig is balanced by quite a significant amount of easily preserved meats (A smoked ham or slab of bacon keeps quite well in a cool cellar), not to mention the lard necessary for a lot of medieval cooking, candle-making, soap-making, and any number of crafts to make both life more comfortable, and perhaps line Eodwine's pockets.

Ooh! Another idea! and another way for Eodwine to supplement his income: he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.

If we have a large lot to work with, then, here are Marenil's suggestions:

Build a barracks, a bower and stillroom, a smoke-shed, a chicken-coop, an animal shed with a pen, and convert the attic space for residential space.

In Marenil's view, the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space, (except perhaps Frodides due to age) which if insulated and planned properly wouldn't be uncomfortable. Menfolk would be relegated to the barracks. I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.

Whew...I actually came to a conclusion in all that...

[Firefoot]

he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand. I've already come up with that idea -- although, now that you mention it, I'm not sure if that was ever on the DT or just mentioned a while back in a pm to lmp...I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there. Leof sleeps in the stable, and he's not goin' nowhere. ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space,
In this instance, Saeryn will, without asking anybody's say-so, remove all of her belongings from her room and go bunk down with the other womenfolk. And if anybody speaks to her of it, she will give to them a patented Saeryn tongue lashing.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Separate thought that has been nagging me:

LMP, what happened to the maids that were around in The White Horse? There was at least one... can't remember her name. She and Saeryn shared a giggle when Beth got a face full of ash when showing Saeryn her room her first day there.

Do we still have maids, or shall I address why we have no maids (I can come up with delightful reasons, but I'll probably settle with something believable) when Saeryn brings the matter up to Eodwine?

[JennyHallu]

In this instance, Saeryn will, without asking anybody's say-so, remove all of her belongings from her room and go bunk down with the other womenfolk. And if anybody speaks to her of it, she will give to them a patented Saeryn tongue lashing.Saeryn may wish to bed up with the women, but Marenil's likely to put his foot down, and he's not likely to put up with a tongue-lashing from someone he sees as a little girl. As Lady, she has appearances and responsibilities to upkeep, and part of that is keeping herself separate from the help. And that implies no condescension, but the right and proper place of the Lady in a class-based structure. Just like how the boss in an office setting today works in an office, and not a cubicle with the regular monkeys. It wouldn't be appropriate.

Just a thought, anyway.

EDIT: and it might make lower maids uncomfortable...They'd never have a time terribly private to themselves if their lady-boss is around in their living space too.

I wonder how much Saeryn's thought through her new position and its implications?
Do we still have maids, or shall I address why we have no maids (I can come up with delightful reasons, but I'll probably settle with something believable) when Saeryn brings the matter up to Eodwine?I wondered if we could assume some extra help as NPCs: a maid or two, maybe a smaller lad working as groom under Leof, servers on feast days, general laborers working on the construction under the supervision of Garstan and Stigend....

[littlemanpoet]

Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)... Still trying to catch up and so far failing miserably; at this stage I'm only this far in the discussions and haven't even had a chance to do more than scan the posts from 2 days ago! :eek:

Anyway, I expect that Stigend's arguments against the away-from-the-hall kitchen will bring the fire-break corridor into reconsideration. Maybe it already has? I'll find out some time in the next 48 hours, I hope. :(

I sincerely hope, Lai, that you take all the fun-poking in this discussion thread, as well as what happens to your character on the rpg thread, as all in fun. I really enjoy your writing. If at any point you stop enjoying the experience, please PM me and let me know what the problem is and I'll do my best to correct it for you.

Regarding kitchens: while in England I toured Hampton Court, with its circa 1500 to 1700 kitchens, a very complicated system already then, with many different rooms designed for specific tasks such as fowl cleaning, butchering, prepping before cooking, actual cooking, then garnishing: each step had a different room. ... and that was necessary for a place as large as Hampton Court, which the Eorling Mead Hall isn't. However, I have had a first-hand glimpse at a pre-industrial kitchen, which was high-vaulted, all stone, and had an oven that was a recessed affair working pretty much as a glorified fire-hearth; the smoke would travel up the slanted roof out a hole at the top of the vault. I hope that explains it. Perhaps there's a website showing the kitchens of Hampton Court that would be worth a look. That said, I think Nogrod's quote regarding medieval kitchens is the better way to go.

Nogrod, "no additional expenses" per se. The king has given the Eorl that most precious 'medieval' commodity, land. I haven't generated any specifics as to how much, but it's all in and around Edoras. Most of it is farmed, as the land around Edoras is surely more likely to be occupied than farther abroad. Thus Eodwine's chief source of income is Rent (fees), as he has no land that he can directly farm. The secondary income source is Fines. So if I really need to, I could write into the RPG a rash of criminal activity. (hahahaha!)

Okay, that brings me even to 7:48 A.M. today (still on that post); gotta go back to work now....

[JennyHallu]

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!

EDIT: and I'm workign on the income problem.

[Nogrod]

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!
I agree with Jenny wholeheartedly! Never kind of knew how fun is it to try and solve this kind of problems together as groundwork for an RPG! Basically if you are just planning a live RPG you just decide on something on your own and that's not half as much fun than this...

I liked Jenny's ideas about the domestic animals. In fact I had thought it as a fact that there were animals at the Hall, but if not, then we surely should have some. Two cows, a dozen hens and a boss for them, a few pigs, maybe a small herd of sheep...

And a small kitchen garden would be a good idea producing at least herbs...

lmp: If Eodwine has land, does he have land with wood? That I think is a crucial question to most of the possible building projects. If Eodwine has wood, building is basically free of extra expenses, if not, there might be limitations to what could be built, at least in the near future.

PS. I like Celuien's idea of having also an oven - so both an open fire and an oven...

[Firefoot]

The way I understand Rohan, there's not really much wood to be found there... maybe if you get up into the White Mountains? But I see it as mostly rolling plains - farmland, pastureland, etc.

[Formendacil]

The way I understand Rohan, there's not really much wood to be found there... maybe if you get up into the White Mountains? But I see it as mostly rolling plains - farmland, pastureland, etc.

In general... that was my first thought too...

But, seeing as I live on the edge of the Great Plains, I think I can confidantly say that while most of the lands NORTH of Edoras wouldn't be forested (just groves along the streams and the like), to the SOUTH of Edoras, there would likely be a forested area between the mountains and the plains. On the assumption that the White Mountains are anything like the Rockies (with which I am well familiar) there should be a good, thick forest (coniferous?) between the edge of the plain and the bare heights.

Mind you, though, the Rohirrim have been dwelling in the dales of the White Mountains for five hundred years, and the Gondorrim and proto-Dunlendings before them. But the foothills of the mountains, it seems to me, would likely be more than a little forested.

Also, as Edoras is located in the dales of the White Mountains, it is highly possible that Eodwine, who has shares in the farmlands about the city (which would most likely be towards the north), would also have portions of the forested areas to the south.

At least, that's MY take on the matter.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Saeryn may wish to bed up with the women, but Marenil's likely to put his foot down, and he's not likely to put up with a tongue-lashing from someone he sees as a little girl.
Delightful. I never said she'd be allowed to stay there. :cool: Hope he's up to what Saeryn's reaction will likely be.

As Lady, she has appearances and responsibilities to upkeep, and part of that is keeping herself separate from the help.
Oh sure.

I wonder how much Saeryn's thought through her new position and its implications?
Not nearly as much as I have, assuredly.

[JennyHallu]

Heheh...

I wonder how active a part Eodwine will take in getting Saeryn in line. And how he'll take Marenil's handling of it (which will probably be to treat her as a little girl as long as she acts like one...and he'll refuse to even speak to her until she calms down and discusses things as an adult.)

lah de dah...waiting for elempi so we can plan for Stewardiness...I wonder if he anticipated how seriously I'd take the job. I didn't...just started having ideas. I'm enjoying developing Marenil as a power of his own though. I've had a bad habit of letting Lin outshine him. Marenil depends to be his own person, and not an accessory of another, no matter how interesting her story. I just need to adjust to running them as truly separate characters.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I wonder how active a part Eodwine will take in getting Saeryn in line.
Is it that you read my mind, or is it that we think in a frighteningly similar fashion?

until she calms down and discusses things as an adult
Excellent. It'll take a bit, just so you know. :) Her snit with Degas was minor compared to other things of which she is capable.

The beginnings of door repairs, Jen? :smokin:

[JennyHallu]

I must confess total confusion. What's that about door repairs? There was something wrong with the doors?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I must confess total confusion. What's that about door repairs? There was something wrong with the doors?
It would seem that slamming will soon be in order. Will the frames hold up well, do you think?

[JennyHallu]

It would seem that slamming will soon be in order. Will the frames hold up well, do you think?
Oh. Right. Door slamming. Marenil may just quietly keep Stigend very busy if Saeryn breaks her door, so she has to live with the reminder of a childish temper for a while.

[Laiudanama]

Oh, bother - unfortunately, my internet access today has been seriously limited due to telephone problems in the area, so I haven't been able to post, and, as I'm going on holiday, thus won't be able to post until next Sunday really, at the earliest.

I do apologise, but I'm therefore going to have to disappear for a while. Seems Trystan may get lost in the privvy for a whole week - really, LMP, you should be feeling terribly guilty for the poor boy ;)

[Kath]

Admittedly I have been skim reading this, but don't we already have an oven in the kitchen? Because otherwise I have no idea how Kara and Frodides have been cooking all the meals!

[Nogrod]

Admittedly I have been skim reading this, but don't we already have an oven in the kitchen? Because otherwise I have no idea how Kara and Frodides have been cooking all the meals!I guess the problem is that there are plans to make it differently - to make a whole new kitchen... no one knows where, at this point I think. Up to Eodwine (and Marenil, and Saeryn...).

I do apologise, but I'm therefore going to have to disappear for a while. Seems Trystan may get lost in the privvy for a whole weekLooking at the pace the negotiations are going on and the wealth of topics to discuss at the breakfast table, your whole week (RL) will not even be enough to turn the clocks at the Mead Hall so that it would be believable those places are cleaned yet. :D So just sit back and relax... (We waited for our entry about three weeks or something... but no problems, just more time to think what to do and what to be)

[JennyHallu]

Kath: look up open hearth cooking. Baked goods would be made in a cast iron dutch oven...the flat lid of a dutch oven is buried in coals for slow constant heat.

[littlemanpoet]

I'm a little confused on where Eodwine gets his ideas of generosity.From Beowulf; with a gloss. From that book comes the idea of lords as ring-givers in order to secure the loyalty of their warriors. Eodwine is an idealist, which makes him attractive to good people but also gets him in trouble with opportunists. He's enough of a realist to realize this, and puts hope in his retainers that they will be enough of a support to offset - or better yet - insulate the mead hall from - the damage 'opportunists' might try to wreak.

I fear Eodwine runs the risk of over-familiarity with his vassals and subjects, and Marenil shall work to correct that.Well he might. He's got a lord who started life as a farmer/commoner, who was thrust into lordship by a gracious king, and who will be a bad student in terms of becoming less familiar with his vassals. ;)

By all means, have Marenil make the suggestions you've mentioned. This should be quite fun. Marenil will at times find Eodwine to be quite ready to do as he suggests, and at other times quite stubborn.

There should be out buildings (better than hovels) made on the grounds as the number of retainers increases. Something new I've learned from my reading is that in a mead hall, benches were fixed, and bedding was stored underneath them in closed compartments; each warrior had his own assigned bench, and slept in the mead hall during the night. There's your barracks.

There should also be a proper ladies' bower (Especially in a Mead Hall: if you go by Beowulf the hall is a gathering place mainly for men, and the ladies congregate elsewhere after seeing to their men).Quite right. But where?

I still have more to reply to from your post, Jenny, as time allows....

[JennyHallu]

There should be out buildings (better than hovels) made on the grounds as the number of retainers increases. Something new I've learned from my reading is that in a mead hall, benches were fixed, and bedding was stored underneath them in closed compartments; each warrior had his own assigned bench, and slept in the mead hall during the night. There's your barracks.
The reason I suggested a separate barracks is because Eodwine opens his doors to any guest, with no way to check up on them or their stories. Marenil thinks Eodwine's own men should have a place of higher honor than random strangers, and doesn't want them to have to store their belongings in the open. Marenil also is new to Rohan, and thinks making your sworn armsmen 'roll on the floor with the dogs' is a bit barbaric, especially when your resources allow for something more. (After all, it was insulting when Grima implied only children did so)

EDIT: But those benches sound great for guests...Marenil was thinking of making cotton screens to mark off areas for each guest (he's very big on privacy...)

Hmm...WWTD?

EDIT AGAIN: And a barracks would provide space to harbor the general laborers Eodwine no doubt needs for construction, besides his artisans. Housing for them would preserve space in the Hall for guests, which seemed important to Eodwine.

Oh, and location for the bower: I thought an apse could be built off the main nave of the Hall, opposite the old Inn wing. I've been looking at plans of pilgrim waystations, usually monasteries, that let any and all visitors sleep in the hall, but had separate quarters for permanent residents. It's the wrong era, but now I've got church design stuck in my head somehow.

I SHOULD GIVE IN AND JUST DOUBLE POST:
By outbuildings I assume you mean small cottages? Ooh...that could be nice, and very simple. No kitchens are needed, just a fireplace for warmth with a chimney that could be shared by two cottages, built side-to-side...and big enough that a woman could have a dutch oven or something if she chose, because every woman should have space to make sweets for her own kids;) . A single good-sized room with a sturdily floored loft?

[littlemanpoet]

Marenil may also suggest that the form of the taxes should be changed. His suggestion: if Eodwine allowed his vassals (those that farm) to choose between taxes all in coin and taxes that are a portion of their produce (and makes it slightly more profitable to pay in produce...) he could use his contacts in Dol Amroth to sell his goods down there, far from where they are grown. My take on Dol Amroth has been to compare that land to Italy, with its poor quality, rocky soil. (Come on, obvious comparison...it's a principality) Great for sheep, and maybe some fruit plants...not so much for always-oh-so-necessary grain production. Selling down there could allow Eodwine to make a profit on his taxes, without having an ill-effect on his vassals. Transport is either through rugged mountains or all the way around them, whichever direction. Is there a way through the White Mountains ... besides the Paths of the Dead, which, though now cleared by Aragron, surely are still not used with any regularity. Eodwine would wonder if the cost of transport wouldn't completely eat up any profits and then some.

Also, a portion of these agricultural 'tithes' could be kept for the consumption of the household, and lower the grocery bill a bit. A supply of grain could allow a hearty porridge to be made for free-guests, that could be always on the stove, and therefore readily available, and more expensive, elaborate meals prepared in smaller quantities, solely for the consumption of the household, without as large a drain on Eodwine's purse. If I had been thinking a bit more clearly on court day, I would have had a line or two about the various gifts brought by his many guests, and his returns thereof. I'll have to cover that in a post when I get a chance, after the fact. Minor niggle: "the stove"? Were there such things?

Also, oughtn't Eodwine be keeping chickens, a dairy cow, and a pig somewhere? Chickens are a constant supply of food, if managed correctly, a cow would provide milk, butter, and cheese (perhaps two cows would be needed, considering the size of the household...), and the expense of keeping one pig is balanced by quite a significant amount of easily preserved meats (A smoked ham or slab of bacon keeps quite well in a cool cellar), not to mention the lard necessary for a lot of medieval cooking, candle-making, soap-making, and any number of crafts to make both life more comfortable, and perhaps line Eodwine's pockets.This is something Eodwine would be quite eager to pursue.

Ooh! Another idea! and another way for Eodwine to supplement his income: he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.Excellent idea.

If we have a large lot to work with, then, here are Marenil's suggestions:

Build a barracks, a bower and stillroom, a smoke-shed, a chicken-coop, an animal shed with a pen, and convert the attic space for residential space.Well, the lot isn't that big. That's one of the key problems with the mead hall idea and its "implementation". Eodwine may have to beg of the king for more land adjacent to his current mead hall holding. I've addressed the barracks issue already.

In Marenil's view, the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space, (except perhaps Frodides due to age) which if insulated and planned properly wouldn't be uncomfortable. Menfolk would be relegated to the barracks. I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.Eodwine will be hard to convince about this.... at least, at first.

Feanor, the maids in the White Horse moved on. The only exception I was willing to make was Frodides, who has happily been picked up by Kath. I'd like to keep the mead hall populated by characters that actually have committed writers.

Watch for Eodwine to put his foot down if his steward begins to tell himself or the Lady of the hall how to behave as proper nobility. :D (this is getting fun!)

The only way I'm willing to have NPCs is if a given writer commits to being that character's regular writer. This may be just a quirk of mine, but I dislike characters hanging around with no writer; this is partly why Gudryn and Æðelhild have been discreetly sent to other places. And, by the way, Lalwendë's characters are considered to have gone to the Fair and then home, to visit again should they wish to.

I'm with Formy on coniferous forests at the feet of the White Mountains ... which are not that far off; but it has yet to be determined if that's Middle Emnet land, or King's land. I'll think about that.

Next post to read: 6:43 p.m. yesterday..... la dee dah dee dah ....

[Firefoot]

As long as we're talking about expansion...

Oughtn't there to be some kind of paddock or something so that the horses aren't in their stalls all day every day? Leof's not having that kind of time to take all the horses out and exercise them as much as I imagine they should be (and if he's supposed to, I sure haven't been writing that in...).

[JennyHallu]

I figured for day laborers their 'writers' would be those directing the crews. As these would be crews rather than individual characters (and, come to think of it, probably most of them don't even need housing, but live in the city) I didn't see that there would be a problem with them being NPCs. After all, they ought to be too busy working to have time to socialize with the residents ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'll take on a maid or two. At least one. I'll flesh her out at work and post up a mini-bio. She won't be a big player, but she'll at least be around with a writer.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

NAME: Merdha

AGE: 52

RACE: Rohirric

GENDER: female

WEAPONS: broom and dustpan, Waggling Finger of Disappointment

APPEARANCE: around 5'8", golden hair that's going silver; stoutly built. An averagely pretty Rohirric lass back in the day, but the years and the child-bearing have caught up with her. She is huggably round with a lap that's simply made for small children to sit in. Clothed practically in skirt, blouse, apron. Hair braided singly and twisted into a knot at the base of her neck each day.

PERSONALITY/STRENGTHS/WEAKNESSES: Merdha is the maternal sort and does not hesitate to lecture those of any station if she thinks that they haven't eaten enough or done their chores. She is especially good with children, but she is well liked by nearly all adults, too. Her presence is relaxing, even when she is cocking her head an looking at you in such a way as to ask "Now why haven't your chores been finished yet? Hm? Hop to it!" She puts up with no nonsense and has a weakness for both a good story (clever excuses have been known, if they are original and funny enough, to get their giver out of work) and a good slice of pie.

HISTORY: Merdha grew up in a traditional Rohirric household with traditional Rohirric values. She worked as a maid in her youth to bring extra money to her parents and married a horseherder. She happily raised the four of her seven children that made it out of the cradle and cared for other children as well until they were all old enough to tend for themselves. When her children grew into adolescence and adulthood and began to care for themselves, Merdha fell into a job as a maid and all around housekeeper for an elderly couple to bring in extra money to her household and to take up the time that her husband spent away from home. The couple have recently passed away and Merdha is looking for a new place of employment in which to do such things as light cleaning, bed making, and whatever else an aging grandmotherly sort can do that won't break her back.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

May I let Merdha end up as the one to relieve Saeryn of housekeeperly duties? I can forsee a way that she would be able to acquire the position with no hard feelings from anyone, given the chance.

[littlemanpoet]

The reason I suggested a separate barracks is because Eodwine opens his doors to any guest, with no way to check up on them or their stories.Eodwine is going to butt heads with Marenil on this one....

Hmm...WWTD? :D Indeed!
By outbuildings I assume you mean small cottages? Ooh...that could be nice, and very simple. No kitchens are needed, just a fireplace for warmth with a chimney that could be shared by two cottages, built side-to-side...and big enough that a woman could have a dutch oven or something if she chose, because every woman should have space to make sweets for her own kids;) . A single good-sized room with a sturdily floored loft?I like it. Eodwine will too.

Hmmmm... a paddock. That is a problem. That's one of the reason why the old White Horse Inn was one supremely BAD choice as residence of the new Eorl of the Middle Emnet. :p There's no space for it unless Eodwine buys neighboring properties, which he can't afford to do. So the horses have currently to be exercised by, well, riding them through town! (sheesh) ... or into the open country. Not that Edoras is a city, of course, but the White Horse Inn would have been situated in the middle of town, near a market with residences not far away.

Feanor, you can't fool me. Merdha threatens to become a major character and you know it. Of course, I wouldn't mind. And yes you can have Saeryn turn her into the housekeeper. There! I think I'm caught up! That took, what, 3 days? During which time I've looked at not a single other thread! Good grief! Now to check out what all of you have actually been writing on the Mead Hall thread......(good grief)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Feanor, you can't fool me. Merdha threatens to become a major character and you know it.
I know it as well as you do. I also know that she wasn't meant to be one... it just sort of happened. :)

Ah, back to work.

How much longer will this "day" last, do you think?

[littlemanpoet]

How much longer will this "day" last, do you think?Could be a while. I don't know. I've only read into post #438 so far. Back to 'work'. :p

[Folwren]

Okay, I am back again and this was my last week at camp, so I will be able to keep up now for some time consistantly.

Are we still in that same day that I left? Is Lin gone yet? I do not have any time at all tonight to read any of the game thread, so if no one wants to give me a brief over view of what is current in the game, I will catch up tomorrow and Sunday. I will probably read over the posts anyway, so yo ureally don't have to write up an over view.

Just wanted to say that I'm here and will be once again participating, I hope. For now, I'm going to go check two more games and then head for bed.

-- Folwren

[Taralphiel]

*sneaks in on the back of Foley's post* :p

Hullo all! I thougt I'd second Foley's request, as I'm somewhat swamped with catching up on this RPG.

If it is as you say, Elempi, and the day will go on a littllonger, I'll try to get a post in for Lys. Since the day of the Court little will have happened to him.



- Tara

[Formendacil]

Ladies,

It is the day of Lin's departure- and departed she has.

But it is still fairly early morn, and most of the construction bigwigs are in various discussion over the continued progress of the Mead Hall restructuring.

From the looks of things, this Day will continue for a while yet, in Real Time.

Oh, and I hope you're joking about putting a Save on the Mead Hall thread, Taralphiel... *Isn't always so good at picking up on jokes*

[Taralphiel]

Or I'm half asleep and haven't had my morning coffee.

XD

I'll go take that little detail out. Thanks for pointing it out for me!

-Tara

[Nogrod]

I'll try to write something today (less than 12 hours from now). Hopefully Celuien has time too so that we may put things forwards.

[Celuien]

I'm around today, though a bit behind in the discussion...

I'll post after you, Nogrod, if that's okay. Are we going with the kitchen next to the hall, but with the double wall around the oven/stove/firepit area?

[Nogrod]

I'm around today, though a bit behind in the discussion...

I'll post after you, Nogrod, if that's okay. Are we going with the kitchen next to the hall, but with the double wall around the oven/stove/firepit area?I'll make Stigend purt forward his ideas, and Garstan should react to them - then I guess it's up to Eodwine to decide how we proceed.... It will take me some two hours to make the post as I'm enjoying my RL summer evening with Lommy's little sister, crerating a board game of our own right now...

[Celuien]

Okay. Reply is in. I'm a little busy today, so I might not have the chance to post again until tomorrow night. Garstan is quite agreeable to either plan. :)

[littlemanpoet]

Eodwine has summarized the points of Garstan and Stigend, and was about to begin to make a decision on Frodides' kitchen when in marched Frodides. Let me know if the words I've put in her mouth are okay with you, Kath, seeing as she has pretty much become your character. :)

[Kath]

It's perfect lmp, I shall now hop off and get a post done.

EDIT: And done. I didn't use anyone in terms of talking, but if you think they've done something they wouldn't just yell at me and I'll change it.

[JennyHallu]

Um...the against-the-sleeping-quarters idea is all well and good, but remember, we have only natural light! those guest rooms against the new kitchen would be pitch black.


I've had Marenil say so.

[littlemanpoet]

Righteeo, Jenny. Eodwine quite agrees.

[Nogrod]

Sorry. I'm going to be away for five days and can't take an active part on this planning meanwhile. So use Stigend as you see fit when needed.

Looks nice!

[Folwren]

If this Day is lasting much longer, should I join? I was planning not to, but it looks like they're discussing what's going to happen to the Mead Hall shortly. Is Thornden needed there to keep his reputation up? Or can I still wait until the next Day? Merenil is there giving his opinion and I think that Thornden is not needed in this sort of decision making any more, as he's only acting as bailiff (though that's not the word, I know) and almsbudsman. Am I correct?

Sorry for all the questions. I really have not been keeping up on the game thread at all this Day.

-- Folwren

[littlemanpoet]

Thornden doesn't need to be there. Once this little discussion has been wrapped up, I think that ties all the necessary strings on the Day. So it shouldn't take tooooo long.....

That said, here's the million dollar question:

How far into the future can we go without messing things up for you?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My characters are adaptable. Whenever works best for everyone else.

[Kath]

So long as Frodides gets her answer about the kitchen I don't have a problem with a time jump.

[Folwren]

Oh, I am quite prepared for any length of time for jumping. Whatever the next Day is, though, I'm bringing Thornden's sister in to visit, and the longer you have the time jump from now to then, the more trouble Thornden will be in for not visiting her earlier. :eek: ;)

I don't care how far you leap the time, Elempi.

-- Folwren

[JennyHallu]

I'm ok with a time jump, as long as you and I, lmp, get together with a PM to see which of Marenil's changes are implemented in the meantime.

And I'll have to get my butt moving on my first "Letters from Lin" post.

[littlemanpoet]

I'm ok with a time jump, as long as you and I, lmp, get together with a PM to see which of Marenil's changes are implemented in the meantime.
Actually, I think it would be appropriate to have a time jump of perhaps nine or so hours, so that it is just before the evening meal when Marenil has had time to draw up his list with all his reasons, presents it to Eodwine, and they agree together what should happen first. And THEN start the next Day.

And since nobody has yet told me a cast iron date they need the game to move to, I'll offer up ONE MONTH. Thoughts?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I can do it. What I had planned might actually work better in retrospect.

[Folwren]

Hm, on second thought, let me talk to Tara about a time jump. I'm not sure what she wants to do or what she is able to do with her character Lys, who is, in a way, connected to Thornden.

-- Folwren

[JennyHallu]

Thought: a place is needed to exercise the horses: instead of a large paddock, could a small enclosure be built, large enough to exercise the horses on a lead?

[Kath]

I'm afraid Kara can't answer until her writer has a couple of things sorted in her head.

I just can't see how this is laid out. I mean, I understand it but I can't see it. Would someone with vague artistic talent mind drawing me how this is going to look?

[Celuien]

A time jump of any size works for me at this point. :)

I'd sketch something for the plans, but I don't have a place to post files, webhosting sites being strictly and frustratingly blocked until I go home.

[littlemanpoet]

I'm afraid Kara can't answer until her writer has a couple of things sorted in her head.

I just can't see how this is laid out. I mean, I understand it but I can't see it. Would someone with vague artistic talent mind drawing me how this is going to look?
Try out this plan (http://www.freewebs.com/celuien/mead%20hall%20plan2.JPG) ... except I don't think that the two angles for the hallway would be practicable. I'd like to see the doors into the alder courtyard be on the 'right' side of the alder, and the hallway a straight-shot from kitchen to Great Hall just the other side of the alder, so that the walls of kitchen, hallway, and Great Hall, form a continuous wall. Granted, it makes the courtyard smaller, but that could mean cozier. Hope that helps.

Jenny, your thought makes sense to me; I'd like to hear from Firefoot about it.

[Kath]

By the look of things that would actually make the walk from kitchen to Hall shorter, if only things were remaining in the same place.

About how far are we planning on moving the kitchens?

Oh, and thank you lmp that really did help. I'd completely forgotten we already had a map :rolleyes:

[littlemanpoet]

As to dimensions, that's kind of tricky. I'm looking at Jenny's lay-out of the guest rooms. Imagining that the rooms are 10x10, and stairways 5 ft. wide, the "Residential Wing" is 70 feet long! :eek: Is that not a bit much?

Maybe the guest rooms are more like 8 x 8? and stairways and hallways 4 feet wide? That would make the RW 54 feet long and 20 feet wide. If those dimensions (which still seem large, but then we're talking about a former Inn) work, that makes the alder courtyard roughly 20 feet from Great Hall to Kitchen. Okay, we'll go with that for working purposes unless someone can give me better numbers.

By the way, Kara, the "plan" is not how things are, but how Garstan plans to make them. Right now, the kitchen is part of the Great Hall, and is therefore roughly 10 x 16. The new kitchen looks, according to the drawing, to be roughly 20 x 16 feet. You could therefore fit 2 of the old into one of the new. I think Frodides would like that, no? :)

That would put the Great Hall at about 60 x 24. Wow again. Rather impressive!

Would a White Horse Inn have had a common room of such dimensions? Seems a bit much; but we can conjecture that the humble Eorl decided to enlarge the Great Hall while he had it rebuilt..... I suppose...

[JennyHallu]

I had not designed or intended the size of the rooms to be regular.

[Firefoot]

The idea of a smaller walking paddock sounds quite feasible to me. :)

[Kath]

By the way, Kara, the "plan" is not how things are, but how Garstan plans to make them. Right now, the kitchen is part of the Great Hall, and is therefore roughly 10 x 16. The new kitchen looks, according to the drawing, to be roughly 20 x 16 feet. You could therefore fit 2 of the old into one of the new. I think Frodides would like that, no?
And now I understand! Thanks. Ok so, at the moment it's all together, after the renovations it will be like the plan but that the kitchen and Hall will be joined by a straight corridor.

I think Frodides can live with that, with some persuasion. I'll get that post done as soon as I get back from my meeting.

[Firefoot]

I'm going to be leaving tomorrow and won't be back until next Saturday; I don't mind if you make the time jump before I get back because as far as I'm concerned Leof doesn't really need to do anything more today. And any amount of time is fine for me - one month for the time jump works fine. I can tell you though, Leof's definitely going to be quite worried after that amount of time after still not hearing anything from his sister...

[JennyHallu]

We'll miss you Firefoot!

Some questions:


What state is the Great Hall itself right now? We seem to be using it again (rather than the tent-hall), but it seems unlikely that it be complete. Is it being completed in sections, starting with the least damaged area? That might explain why some of it is usable again, and also how Eodwine is funding its expansion: a little at a time.
How is Eodwine planning to deal with the security of his own people with the free-guesters in the Hall? Kara, in particular, will need to traverse the Hall, alone, in the wee morning hours, and she is a young and comely maid. In Beowulf's Mead Hall, lmp, sexual taboos were much less stringent even than they are now. I doubt practices appropriate in Beowulf's hall would have any place in Tolkien's world, especially with his seeming worship of a feminine ideal.
As I get involved in the accounts and money-management of Eodwine's holdings, can we decide upon a standard monetary system? I assume no paper money, but what coins? Until further notice, I'm going to at least pretend we're using old English money: pennies and shillings and pounds, etc, but relative values and practical values should be established.
Can I assume that the "Middle Emnet" is not merely the lands surrounding Edoras, but the government and ordinance of the city itself? I've got a number of ideas on how that could help Eodwine...fees and taxes that have gone unasked as Eodwine sets up his estate that Marenil will quietly reinstate and enforce. It could also allow for some daily duties of Thornden that would not call him outside the walls.
I've also been doing more thinking. :eek: (uh-oh:rolleyes: )

I've reordered my list, LMP, into things Marenil wishes started right away and saved for later, and the main factor involved is startup cost.


First and foremost, the treatment of free-guests must be cost effective and standard: Marenil wishes to dedicate a cauldron to a pot of inexpensive, but hearty porridge. A porridge would make a warm and nutritious meal for any traveller, may be augmented by the traveller's own stores (it is easy and tasty to add dried meat or fruit to a porridge) should they choose, and can be made in large quantities easily. That way Kara and Frodides wouldn't have to worry so much about planning meals, because only the porridge has to serve an unknown quantity of people. Eodwine could provide a communal jar of honey for his guests to sweeten their meals with, which would last a long time at little cost. The porridge could also serve as breakfast for Eodwine's people on a busy day. Finally, the leftover porridge for the day could be sweetened and baked slowly overnight into a chewy waybread or cookie that can be given to guests as they leave, and snitched during the day by certain small and sticky hands.

Marenil will also urge the hasty installation of benches such as you described, with old bedding from the Inn mended and stored within. (Perhaps they could find a lot of bedding needing minimal repairs when they venture to the attic?) He would also like to manufacture linen screens that can be stored against the wall and pulled out to provide privacy for a woman guest (or a man who feels uncomfortable with the sleeping arrangements for that matter).

With this basis for a standard and generous treatment of guests established, Marenil hopes to encourage Eodwine to take up some of the aspects of an Innkeeper without prejudice, since his obligation will have already been fulfilled. He wishes to make sure that Eodwine is not taken advantage of, also, something he fears is a definite possibility in dealing with this gentle, honest, and openhanded man. (He'll use that phrasing, too...nothing like flattery to help talk a man into something.) Except for noble guests, Marenil intends to ask a small price for passing guests to stay in a Hall bedroom, as available. He also wishes there to be a small fee for guests who wish to extend their stay in the Hall longer than...oh...three nights, payable by the night or sevenday, making them effectively lodgers after a certain point, rather than guests. He also will urge that those free-guesters who wish to share the Lord's evening meal (i.e. something with meat) pay a small fee, a penny or so only, and probably quietly waive that fee in the case of Harrold and Gareth (did I get the names right?) on the basis of long understanding.

I still don't know how to deal with the security of the guests and residents, but that's Garwine's problem, not Marenil's, so I guess I don't have to figure it out.
Second, Marenil wishes to create bedrooms for the residents (and children) out of the Inn's attic space, which would not at all be uncommon for the times, or the architectural style (wattle-and-daub) we chose for the Hall. He intends to add dormer windows (probably simply built by Stigend out of the scrap lumber from the old hall and kitchen: thatch roofs should be fairly easy to alter), but put up simple partitions that do not need Stigend's handiwork for more than some basic planning. These rooms would be large, light, and comfortable in summer.

My only worry is that they may be difficult to heat in winter, but if this is brought up Marenil shall point out that winter is a long way off, and there is plenty of time for something to be done about that. I wonder if cast-iron has been developed, either in Rohan or Gondor? If at least in Gondor, he can write his son to have purchased and sent with Linduial upon her return several small cast-iron stoves or braziers.

This would free the regular rooms for guests, families, and officers, and for another little plan Marenil's got up his sleeve (to be detailed below). Those I think should be sent upstairs are Kara, Trys, Leof (who Marenil will give a room even if he doesn't use it to sleep in, as it might still be nice for Leof to have a more private space to himself, or to escape from the heat of the stables in summer), Merdha (when she arrives), and children or young people over the age of ten. There should still be plenty of space for later additions, and I don't think the children's space needs even to be partitioned off further than putting the adult rooms in between spaces for girls and for boys.

All other householders and officers Marenil will move to the second story, (even to kicking Lin out of her room, and moving her downstairs if necessary for space) where rooms are larger. Only Frodides will stay downstairs, as her injured leg might prohibit her from getting up and down the stairs easily. This would create some separation between the household and the guests, fostering more of a family atmosphere (I hope). Rooms reserved for Gudryn and Aedhel (who are away on a rather long term basis) could be used as guest rooms for folks such as Degas or Thornden's sister: personal guests of the household, as opposed to the freeguests and visiting gentry.
There needs to be some space for livestock and to exercise the horses, and I don't think that would be too difficult to manage. The horses really only need a paddock big enough they can be released into it while their stalls are cleaned, and exercised on a circle-lead. There should also be a cow-shed, pigsty, and chicken coop, and these can be built all beside eachother, and indeed, the cows and pig can share a yard. If the Hall is not yet of the dimensions I have in my sketch, but is being expanded slowly, in stages, then there could easily be a great deal of space in front of it or in the courtyard available that is not evident on that sketch, and that will be available for a good long time, and probably Eodwine will be able to afford to expand his own estate (or set up a separate farmholding for his own table outside the city walls. or both.) long before that space is needed for building.

A few livestock (2 dairy cows, one of them pregnant (so we can have steak later (steak...mmm...(nested parentheses are fun!))), a pig, oh...twenty laying hens, and a rooster) would be fairly inexpensive, and Marenil feels he can stretch the budget to cover them, or if not, he recieves a private pension (delivered him by a merchant-banker who has an arrangement with Farlen in many different cities) and, as he has little need for the money now, he may make some small purchases (at least at the outset) out of his own money without telling anyone...might be entertaining later for him to be found out.
Marenil wishes to institute a way for the farmers to pay their taxes in agricultural tithes, and/or set up a system by which Eodwine serves as broker for the goods of his lands for a percentage (freeing the farmholders to return to their fields and families rather than dealing with the sale of their goods.) He wants Eodwine to have a ready source of quality foodstuffs, and wants to start a caravan trade over the mountains (or perhaps just into the mountains...would Ghan-buri-Ghan be interested in augmenting the diet of his folk? Just a random thought...). This may (apparently) be difficult to convince Eodwine of, but Marenil has high hopes.
Marenil has noticed in his month of residence at the Hall, that although Eodwine seems to have the respect (albeit grudging in some instances) of the simple farmers, Eodwine's standing among his noble vassals seems dangerously low. None have come to pay him court, and he wonders if this is perhaps due to Eodwine's low birth, or to his harboring of Saeryn, a runaway, or to his favor with the King and rapid (and high) ennoblement. Whatever the reason, not one of the lesser nobles of the Middle Emnet have come to pay him court, and Marenil seeks a solution to this problem (which could become very serious).

The easiest way for a man to affect another may (arguably of course) be through his children, and Marenil plans to encourage Eodwine to seek out a few high-born fosterlings to add to his household. These would allow Eodwine's nobles to take advantage of Eodwine's high standing with the court, foist off some of their mouths to feed, and tentatively align themselves with their new lord without risking anything more precious than a few of their younger children, who may be able to easier find a way to support themselves living in the city anyway. At the least, Eodwine's background and connections might help them rise in the Guard, surely not a shameful place for a younger son to go...

And while the nobles take advantage of Eodwine's generosity, Eodwine is entrusted with the education (and foster fathering) of their children, and that cannot help but increase his standing, as long as the children are well-taught and do well in the future, and are fond of him...

I just had this idea, and it isn't as polished as the others. Forgive me.
Marenil's building plans will be put on hold until Eodwine's money issues are dealt with. Which could be a lot faster depending on the answer to question 4. What do you think, lmp?

[littlemanpoet]

Sorry, I've been away more than I intended to be...

I've posted up the conclusion to the meeting on the kitchen, and given Marenil his entrance regarding the list.

If you have anything you'd like me to edit in my last post, please let me know and I'll change it.

Now I'll read Jenny's most recent post on this thread.

[JennyHallu]

Could you change your post so that Marenil isn't carrying a list, lmp? With paper such a precious commodity, I don't think he would have written it down, rather than just prepare to give his plans and reasoning orally. He's not as anal as I am, anyway.

Didn't realize quite how long that was. heh.

[littlemanpoet]

Good grief! :eek: :D

A slight rearrangement so as to put one particular issue to rest:

Marenil wishes to institute a way for the farmers to pay their taxes in agricultural tithes, and/or set up a system by which Eodwine serves as broker for the goods of his lands for a percentage (freeing the farmholders to return to their fields and families rather than dealing with the sale of their goods.)You may consider this to already be in place.

Marenil wants to start a caravan trade over the mountains (or perhaps just into the mountainsThe White Mountains may not be impassible, but they're not easy to get through or into. Trade would have to be around them.

...would Ghan-buri-Ghan be interested in augmenting the diet of his folk? Just a random thought...).Might need to check with the Eorl of the East Emnet for that.

What state is the Great Hall itself right now? We seem to be using it again (rather than the tent-hall), but it seems unlikely that it be complete. Is it being completed in sections, starting with the least damaged area? That might explain why some of it is usable again, and also how Eodwine is funding its expansion: a little at a time.The shell is in place. It is currently 30 feet long by 24 feet wide, so it is half the length shown on Jenny's map. The kitchen and downed wall went up first. Given a period of a month to do the work, our builders were rather fast, I suppose, in getting as far as they did. Oh well. I'm no judge of how long such things took. But just the walls, roof, and rafters. The firepit still needs to be finished. The original tables an chairs are set in the Hall.

How is Eodwine planning to deal with the security of his own people with the free-guesters in the Hall?Thornden and Garwine are in charge of keeping the peace on the Grounds of the Eorling Mead Hall.

Kara, in particular, will need to traverse the Hall, alone, in the wee morning hours, and she is a young and comely maid. In Beowulf's Mead Hall, lmp, sexual taboos were much less stringent even than they are now. I doubt practices appropriate in Beowulf's hall would have any place in Tolkien's world, especially with his seeming worship of a feminine ideal.Well, it was only in seeming, I suppose; but that's a quibble. Kara would be most unwise to walk the Hall at night, or she may find herself considered other than she intends, or worse. This may be seem rather harsh on my part, but we are writing about a feigned time and place where it was men's world.

As I get involved in the accounts and money-management of Eodwine's holdings, can we decide upon a standard monetary system? I assume no paper money, but what coins? Until further notice, I'm going to at least pretend we're using old English money: pennies and shillings and pounds, etc, but relative values and practical values should be established.Let's go with Tolkien's system. In the absence of any clarity there, let us say the following:

a copper = 1 day's wage
a half silver = 10 coppers
a silver = 20 coppers
a gold = 4 silvers

Can I assume that the "Middle Emnet" is not merely the lands surrounding Edoras, but the government and ordinance of the city itself?Yes.

I'm going to get this settle once and for all. The extend of the Middle Emnet is as follows:

Southern border: the slopes of the White Mountains
Western border: 50 miles west of Edoras
Northern border: the fens of the Entwash
Eastern border: the Entwash

To the south and east of Edoras, is the land known as The Folde, which is part of East Emnet. So roughly 5000 square miles of land (50x50).

I've got a number of ideas on how that could help Eodwine...fees and taxes that have gone unasked as Eodwine sets up his estate that Marenil will quietly reinstate and enforce. It could also allow for some daily duties of Thornden that would not call him outside the walls.Marenil will have to provide specifics to Eodwine.

I've reordered my list, LMP, into things Marenil wishes started right away and saved for later, and the main factor involved is startup cost.

First ... Marenil wishes to dedicate a cauldron to a pot of inexpensive, but hearty porridge. ... Eodwine could provide a communal jar of honey for his guests to sweeten their meals with, which would last a long time at little cost. ...Eodwine would be agreeable, and of course willing to make exceptions as the mood hits him.

Marenil will also urge the hasty installation of benches such as you described, with old bedding from the Inn mended and stored within. (Perhaps they could find a lot of bedding needing minimal repairs when they venture to the attic?)Good.

He would also like to manufacture... Manufacture is far off in the future; at least as we know it. But they could be made .... linen screens that can be stored against the wall and pulled out to provide privacy for a woman guest (or a man who feels uncomfortable with the sleeping arrangements for that matter).What an odd notion for the commons; it's as if they thought they was highborn. (wink)

With this basis for a standard and generous treatment of guests established, Marenil hopes to encourage Eodwine to take up some of the aspects of an Innkeeper without prejudice, since his obligation will have already been fulfilled.The Eorl is no Innkeeper. This is the Mead Hall of a lord, albeit a rather wistful and (somewhat) carefree one. Without prejudice? What do you mean?

He wishes to make sure that Eodwine is not taken advantage of... The Eorl and his steward are quite likely to have pointed conversations about this.

Except for noble guests, Marenil intends to ask a small price for passing guests to stay in a Hall bedroom, as available. He also wishes there to be a small fee for guests who wish to extend their stay in the Hall longer than...oh...three nights, payable by the night or sevenday, making them effectively lodgers after a certain point, rather than guests. He also will urge that those free-guesters who wish to share the Lord's evening meal (i.e. something with meat) pay a small fee, a penny or so only,Eodwine will say 'no'.

Harrold and Gareth (did I get the names right?)Close. Harreld and Garreth.

Second, Marenil wishes to create bedrooms for the residents (and children) out of the Inn's attic space, which would not at all be uncommon for the times, or the architectural style (wattle-and-daub) we chose for the Hall. He intends to add dormer windows (probably simply built by Stigend out of the scrap lumber from the old hall and kitchen: thatch roofs should be fairly easy to alter), but put up simple partitions that do not need Stigend's handiwork for more than some basic planning. These rooms would be large, light, and comfortable in summer.[/qutoe]Good idea.

[quote]My only worry is that they may be difficult to heat in winter, but if this is brought up Marenil shall point out that winter is a long way off, and there is plenty of time for something to be done about that.Heat rises. With small hearths in the downstairs rooms, the attic would most likely be rather cozy in winter, and downright suffocating in summer.

I wonder if cast-iron has been developed, either in Rohan or Gondor? If at least in Gondor, he can write his son to have purchased and sent with Linduial upon her return several small cast-iron stoves or braziers.The late 3rd Age is well into Iron Age technology. So yes.

This would free the regular rooms for guests, families, and officers, and for another little plan Marenil's got up his sleeve (to be detailed below). Those I think should be sent upstairs are Kara, Trys, Leof (who Marenil will give a room even if he doesn't use it to sleep in, as it might still be nice for Leof to have a more private space to himself, or to escape from the heat of the stables in summer), Merdha (when she arrives), and children or young people over the age of ten. There should still be plenty of space for later additions, and I don't think the children's space needs even to be partitioned off further than putting the adult rooms in between spaces for girls and for boys.Except that you'd think they was nobles with all these highfalutin partitions. Children and parents room together.

All other householders and officers Marenil will move to the second story, (even to kicking Lin out of her room, and moving her downstairs if necessary for space) where rooms are larger. Only Frodides will stay downstairs, as her injured leg might prohibit her from getting up and down the stairs easily. This would create some separation between the household and the guests, fostering more of a family atmosphere (I hope). Rooms reserved for Gudryn and Aedhel (who are away on a rather long term basis) could be used as guest rooms for folks such as Degas or Thornden's sister: personal guests of the household, as opposed to the freeguests and visiting gentry.Good.

There needs to be some space for livestock and to exercise the horses, and I don't think that would be too difficult to manage. ... If the Hall is not yet of the dimensions I have in my sketch, but is being expanded slowly, in stages, then there could easily be a great deal of space in front of it or in the courtyard available that is not evident on that sketch, and that will be available for a good long time, and probably Eodwine will be able to afford to expand his own estate (or set up a separate farmholding for his own table outside the city walls. or both.) long before that space is needed for building. That makes 50 feet from Hall to road in the front by 100 feet wide. Plent of space. What on earth did Bethberry do with it all?

A few livestock (2 dairy cows, one of them pregnant (so we can have steak later (steak...mmm...(nested parentheses are fun!))), a pig, oh...twenty laying hens, and a rooster) would be fairly inexpensive, and Marenil feels he can stretch the budget to cover them, or if not, he recieves a private pension (delivered him by a merchant-banker who has an arrangement with Farlen in many different cities) and, as he has little need for the money now, he may make some small purchases (at least at the outset) out of his own money without telling anyone...might be entertaining later for him to be found out.Interesting. Eodwine would be humiliated.

Marenil has noticed in his month of residence at the Hall, that although Eodwine seems to have the respect (albeit grudging in some instances) of the simple farmers, Eodwine's standing among his noble vassals seems dangerously low. None have come to pay him court, and he wonders if this is perhaps due to Eodwine's low birth, or to his harboring of Saeryn, a runaway, or to his favor with the King and rapid (and high) ennoblement. Whatever the reason, not one of the lesser nobles of the Middle Emnet have come to pay him court, and Marenil seeks a solution to this problem (which could become very serious). This is based on a misunderstanding. If you read the posts on court day, you will see that folk of all stations did come; it's just that we have nobody writing noble characters, so their stories didn't get told. We can still conclude that many nobles did show up. That said, the level of respect is probably still less than it could be.

The easiest way for a man to affect another may (arguably of course) be through his children, and Marenil plans to encourage Eodwine to seek out a few high-born fosterlings to add to his household. These would allow Eodwine's nobles to take advantage of Eodwine's high standing with the court, foist off some of their mouths to feed, and tentatively align themselves with their new lord without risking anything more precious than a few of their younger children, who may be able to easier find a way to support themselves living in the city anyway. At the least, Eodwine's background and connections might help them rise in the Guard, surely not a shameful place for a younger son to go...A nice idea, but Eodwine is not at all sure he's ready for such a venture.

And while the nobles take advantage of Eodwine's generosity, Eodwine is entrusted with the education (and foster fathering) of their children, and that cannot help but increase his standing, as long as the children are well-taught and do well in the future, and are fond of him...ditto.

Well thought out, Jenny. There's enough here to fill the agenda for an entire year or more.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

For those that don't stalk me and therefore don't know already, I'm soon to be a lot less active.

From tomorrow until the first week of September, I'll be having the life that I've spent all summer working myself exhausted to have. :) ;) The times in between my travelling, I'll be just as busy as I regularly am, with the additional work of packing to move back to school.

I'm not positive; I might be able to keep up. But in case I do fall out of contact, here's what's up with my characters after the time jump:

Farahil's with Lin. Use him how you will, Jen. I have nothing planned for him until he returns to Rohan. He can do pretty much anything, so long as he stays alive. :)

Degas should be considered gone from the Hall. He gave Saeryn and Eodwine a couple days' warning, but nobody else, except maybe Garstan's daughter. He left a week after Lin to do a few things that he needs to do. If Lin gets back before he does, so much the more entertaining. "I'll wait for you forever!" and he's gone. We should really petition B-W for an evil smiley.

Saeryn will be the hardest to keep up with, since she's the only one particularly active in the actual hall right now. I'll try to be around often enough to keep up with her. If I do fall out of contact, use her.

I think that's everything...

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks for the heads up, Fea.

Are there writers who want to post as soon as the new Day begins (which will be precisely one month after the current Day)?

These past few RL days seem to have been pretty dry across the Downs. Let me know.

Jenny, do you plan to write for Marenil in the next day or so, or should we give you all the time you need, and have Pio insert Marenil's response when you have time to write it?

[Nogrod]

Are there writers who want to post as soon as the new Day begins (which will be precisely one month after the current Day)? I guess both Stigend and Modtryth would like to post something as both myself and Lommy will be away again (from July 28th / myself, and July 30th / Lommy). I'll contact Celuien about the children and wish her to send her responses to both of us.

There is no hurry in a sense that we would need to have an immediate post, but it would be nice to manage writing something before we go off-line again for a week... Anyhow, our family has been at the Mead Hall a day and then we jump a month.

Please all the others, send us your thoughts via this thread or PM of what do you think or how do you wish to relate (or not to relate) to our family during that month. That would help making the leap...

[piosenniel]

Just a small request for those who might want posts placed - do give me the post # and tell me whether you want your post before or after the post already there.

Thanks!

~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

I guess both Stigend and Modtryth would like to post something as both myself and Lommy will be away again (from July 28th / myself, and July 30th / Lommy).If you want to post first on the new Day, please do.

Anyhow, our family has been at the Mead Hall a day and then we jump a month.If you need a shorter time period, please say so. I asked everyone what was the longest time jump they could handle; nobody said anything specific, so I offered a month as a possibility. We don't have to go with a full month if you need something less; just say so.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Please all the others, send us your thoughts via this thread or PM of what do you think or how do you wish to relate (or not to relate) to our family during that month. That would help making the leap...
Saeryn will probably not interact much with Stigend beyond what is friendly or work-related. But I suspect that she will like Modtryth immediately as more than a mere acquaintance and she likes all children, so Cnebba is likely to find himself in the happy possession of more sweets than strictly necessary.

[Nogrod]

If you need a shorter time period, please say so. I asked everyone what was the longest time jump they could handle; nobody said anything specific, so I offered a month as a possibility. We don't have to go with a full month if you need something less; just say so.There probably is no problem with a month's leap. Any leap with someone who has just entered the place opens certain things that has to be thought of. How did the others relate to them after their arrival and their being there the first day, the second etc.? Were there any mishaps or incidents (positive or negative) during the time? How did they themselves adjusted to the people around them etc...? So we face the same questions with a jump of a week or a month.

And surely, that seems to be no problem. I think the relations between Stigend and Garstan seem to be right - and we have some nice plans for the kids' mutual relationships with Celuien. And what Fea wrote seems to confirm my positive expectations in relation of Modtryth taking her place in the Mead Hall.

But what about the others? At least people who would come to interact with us during the month should already have an idea about us (as we should of them). So how is Marenil or Nain going to see the newcomers, or Thornden, or Frodides and Kara, or others?

Or how is Trystan fitting in?

It would be nice to have a short idea from everyone actively writing, how they see all the newcomers. That would ease up writing the first post after the jump?

[Formendacil]

So how is Marenil or Nain going to see the newcomers, or Thornden, or Frodides and Kara, or others?

Nain, likely enough, would interact little with Modtryth or Cnebba. He's rather uncomfortable around women he doesn't know (and sometimes even those he does), and he'd have little enough reason to be around Modtryth, save insofar as he'd become familiar with her face. Much the same with Cnebba- I really don't see Nain being all that comfortable around human children.

Likely enough, he'd get to know Stigend fairly well. Though more of an ornamental sculptor than a practical stonemason, Nain is skilled enough at the latter, and would probably toss in his Dwarven two bits while Garstan and Stigend while they laboured, and would probably assist somewhat himself, while waiting for the fireplace to rise, so that he could "ornate" it.

I figure Nain would like Stigend, to begin with anyway, as a hard worker and level-headed man.

LMP- It had been my hope to get Nain to apologise to Saeryn and Eodwine before the Day was up. Mainly, I was waiting for the "council" to disperse... Since Nain is more of a recreational character than a "major" one, it's no biggie, but we should perhaps resolve where things stand at the moment.

[Nogrod]

Nain, likely enough, would interact little with Modtryth or Cnebba. He's rather uncomfortable around women he doesn't know (and sometimes even those he does), and he'd have little enough reason to be around Modtryth, save insofar as he'd become familiar with her face. Much the same with Cnebba- I really don't see Nain being all that comfortable around human children.

Likely enough, he'd get to know Stigend fairly well.
......
I figure Nain would like Stigend, to begin with anyway, as a hard worker and level-headed man.That sounds fair and reasonable enough.

Stigend would be somewhat reserved with Nain as he has never actually met a dwarf in real terms (seen one or two in his life), but the qualities Nain is praising Stigend would be the ones Stigend would identify in Nain too. And surely he would be taken by the craftsmanship and the sheer wideness of the experience with all kinds of building he possesses. So with a slow start Stigend would have learned to appreciate the dwarf very much.

Is it alright with you if we share some funny incidences during the month we jump over? Stigend could remember a case where they had to bring a stool to help Nain to hoist a log high enough - and Nain could remember any occasion where Stigend had been a fool with Nain's trade or anythnig? That would bring some life to the relationship of these people, in a good sport-way.

It's seems more than easy seeing these crafters getting along with each other... Maybe we come up with some real disputes later - or find something to groan with others than us craftsmen / craftsdwarves? :)

[littlemanpoet]

Running out of time till roughly noon today: I'm happy to leave Day time for Nain. I still need to hear from Laui (?), Trystan's writer, before making any jump at all. Thanks for the reminder on that, Noggie. I've only scanned posts, so I'll respond better in a few hours.

[JennyHallu]

Sorry I haven't been around! Meant to write up my post Saturday but a catastrophic leak means I have no internet at home for a while. Trying to fix it, but my time here shall surely be somewhat curtailed.

[Thinlómien]

I'm back

...but just to be gone again on 30th.

Hopefully I will be able to do at least a post or two before I leave (for a week only this time).

(Then, I promise, I won't go anywhere... :rolleyes: )

I read through both of the threads... I must say, you guys have been... well, productive. But things seem to be going along fine. That's good.

[Formendacil]

Running out of time till roughly noon today: I'm happy to leave Day time for Nain. I still need to hear from Laui (?), Trystan's writer, before making any jump at all. Thanks for the reminder on that, Noggie. I've only scanned posts, so I'll respond better in a few hours.

With Fea on but irregularly, I'm thinking it might be easier to deal with Saeryn in retrospect.

As regards Eodwine, though, I'll interrupt his conversation with Marenil... sometime after Jenny has Marenil reply to that dangling salute Eodwine made him.

[Laiudanama]

still need to hear from Laui (?), Trystan's writer, before making any jump at all. Oh, I'm so sorry - of course, any jumping is fine with me :)

I'll attempt to get up some kinda post before the end of the week, of course, as I'm going on a tour of France with my choir on Saturday, and so probably won't have internet access; however, with 9+ hours of singing each day, I'm sorry if I don't manage it. :(

[JennyHallu]

Guys, go ahead and keep going. I'm at Taco Bell for free WI-FI right now (Taco Bell for WI-FI. How weird is that?) and I don't have time to get together as involved a post as I had planned right now. I'm not even on myown computer, just hubby's laptop.

I'll have Pio insert my post when I get it ready, or PM it to lmp so he can respond and edit it in. Go ahead and keep going.

Gah I miss internet. 3 whole days!!! (I am really spoiled)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

With Fea on but irregularly, I'm thinking it might be easier to deal with Saeryn in retrospect.
If you post, Marty my dear, I'll respond. I've actually got a little more time than I expected for the next two days. Not infinite, but certainly enough to post for Saeryn if you can get a post up any time soon.

[JennyHallu]

OHMYGOODNESSI'MHOMEANDTHERE'SINTERNET!!!

Whew. I'm going to try to get a post up.

[littlemanpoet]

Wonderful! :) Things are falling together rather better than it seemed they would. Thanks for being so helpful, everybody!

So we're looking at Jenny, Formy, Feanor, and me posting once or more each, then we're done with the Day.

And Roggie does the first post on the next Day, a month later than the current Day, which will be May 22, Eorling time. Spring in the air, la dee da dee da.. and all that.... ;)

[Nogrod]

Wonderful! :)

And Roggie does the first post on the next DayRoggie? :D

???

But if you meant me, sure I try to do that before I leave to the youth-camp for a week on Thursday evening (+3GMT). If the thread is not at that point of time then gamewise, I might send it here to be placed on the thread or something.

And if I have not sent anything by the time, do not wait for me. I will be without any net-access for a week from Thursday. :)

[Celuien]

Roggie?
I didn't know you were a Balrog. Surprises are plentiful on this thread. ;) :D

Apologies for my recent decrease in posting! I'll be home and ready to post this weekend, so I can pick up on the developments with Garstan and Stigend/the children then.

[littlemanpoet]

I didn't know you were a Balrog. Surprises are plentiful on this thread.
Ack. :p :D Noggie. Am I in too many rpg's, or what? :rolleyes:

"Roggie" is from ATM2, Noggie.