Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLVII: Dueling Wizards Werewolf II

[Lalaith]

means that there was no wolf turned last night

Roa, read the narration. Four wolves killed last night.

[Roa_Aoife]

At the same time, if Rikae IS the GW, and was scried last night, then she already knows our odds are good. Really good. If we get a wolf today.

Ugh, my brain is foggy from medication. Can anyone work out those numbers? (Not phantom because I still think he's a wolf.)

Edit: Cross posted. You're right Lal. Then it really doesn't make sense.

[Diamond18]

And also suspect that she's not telling the truth about being the GW.


There IS a chance she could be doing this just to out the Good Wizard. As a wolf or the EW. I mean, let's take the assumption that she is lying.

-- Her whole reason, it would seem, for claiming to be the GW, is so we'll obey her and lynch Legate.

-- She is, obviously, giving us no direction beyond that.

-- Does a GW gain more or lose more by outing herself just to catch one little wolfie?

-- Who was garnering lots of suspicion ANYWAY?

-- But a Bad Momma could achieve a lot by claiming to be the GW, telling the village who to lynch. The GW is then forced to consider letting a (presumably) innocent Legate die, or reveal.

-- It's a lose lose situation for the village, if this is the case.

-- So, since a false reveal is a bad thing for the village, it's a distinct possibility that it might (or has) happened.

Wow. Sorry Rikae, but as of right now, I DON'T know what to do. Should I trust you? Who else do I trust? Even if you're lying, I really don't think the GW is going to reveal... e might be willing to sacrifice Legate. So we seem to be on our own trying to figure this out.


No, no, no... I'm sitting here at home, and in front of me is a chart with listed behaviors of the EW and GW- things they would and wouldn't do in specific situations.

Is this a color coded chart, by any chance? :p

Hey, it's me, I have to make some jokes even in the heat of Day 3. :Merisu:

[Lalaith]

Roa. Please listen.
Rikae could not have been scried last night.
There were four wolves in the narration. The EW has not found the GW, either by wolf or by scrying. That is one of the reasons why it is so weird that Rikae has revealed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ironic, but not at all suspicious, eh?
Last time I self-voted, I got lynched for it. Now there's nothing new under the sun.

That's ok. I'm the GW, anyhow - so you really couldn't lynch me.

Yes, nothing new. In fact, the first idea I got when seeing it (and when seeing this post of yours) was: I should vote her. But that's just plain silly. Just why are you doing that???


Hmmm...very odd. I am ready to believe that Rikae is telling the truth, in that she would be a likely wizard.

But why would the GW declare now? She is a team member down, and as I've proved earlier, the EW hasn't found her yet.
"Proved", hrm (said Glóin). But yes, what you ask has its sense. Rikae?

No, seriously, though, lynch Legate. He's evil.
And why aside from that? And what puzzles me the most is why should a GW do that, and such...

Rikae, I'm assuming that your seer dreamed him?

And phantom wasn't evil when your seer dreamed him? When was that?

So what, Rikae? You say your Seer dreamt of me? Because if so, then my view of you is clear.

Also - sorry to leave you folks in the lurch like this, but I have to go out and won't be back until shortly before DL. You know what to do.

That's too bad. Because I wanted to know what's up.

Rikae, you haven't answered my question. And unless you do, I won't know what to do. I just think its weird that the GW would reveal now and I want to know the reason. Sorry.
Yes, my words.

Legate, have you been killing off our family? You are SO grounded.
No way, mum.

Look, if Rikae knows that Legate is the EW, not a wolf, then I don't want to lynch him. He won't die, and it will just take up our llynch space so that we don't lynch a wolf.

But if Legate is a wolf then we should definitely lynch him.

Unfornately, Rikae didn't specify. And she didn't tell us why she revealed. Was she in danger? I haven't finished reading through the thread yet....
Well, that's really it. But she's gone. In any case, even if she is the GW, she could not have dreamt of me (or her seer or what). I am normal ordo, so if she thinks I'm evil, she must think so only on her belief, not knowledge.

I'd like to get Legate's take on all this, actually.

If he's an innocent being set up by a lying Rikae, then I suspect we'll be getting an impassioned defense.

I'm not so sure what he'd do as a wolf, though. It might be reason to clam up and not say too much more, as anything he says from now on can (and will) be held against his fellow wolves or the EW. Just a guess.

So..... Legate?

Yes, you see. I was responding this post-by-post as I read, you see my meaning. Posting this now, hope not to crosspost with many meanwhile. Here it goes...

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, here are the possibilities:

A. Rikae is telling the Truth. Legate is guilty. We should lynch him.

B. Rikae is lying. Legate is innocent. If we lynch him and he we find this out, then we will know for certain that Rikae is evil. GW and her crew can handle it that Night, or we can handle it the Next Day.

C. Rikae is lying about being the GW, but not about Legate. We should lynch him because we have a wolf.

If Legate is a wolf, then we can't know if A or C is correct. However, if he is innocent, then we get a definite answer on Rikae.

Sorry, my dear boy, but you've been Naughtily killing off our family. Shame on you.

[Roa_Aoife]

Roa. Please listen.
Rikae could not have been scried last night.
There were four wolves in the narration. The EW has not found the GW, either by wolf or by scrying. That is one of the reasons why it is so weird that Rikae has revealed.

Yes, Lal, I heard you. You're right. My med-fogged brain is moving a little slowly at the moment, but you're right. The GW could not have been scried last Night.

[the phantom]

Nilp for Rikae
Lhuna for Sally
Izzy for Di
Rikae for Rikae
morm for Lommy

Hmm... that last vote was unexpected. I guess morm is a bit busy.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, summa summarum: Rikae left us a nice parting gift by disappearing and leaving us to deal with the confusion she caused in the hours before she returns. How nice of her. Of course from my personal stance I am inclined to think she's up to no good, had she said explicitely why she thinks that I am evil, I will be more sure on where to put her (like I said, if she is going to say that her Seer saw me, then it's clear she lies). I would say... well, there it is, she isn't around. If she were around, we could question her, eventually lynch her if she looked guilty, whatever. This way... this way the only think we can do, concerning her case, is waiting. Otherwise... well, if she were the GW, she could be probably challenged toMorrow. I'd guess if she is a Wolf, f.ex. she may have been instructed by the EW to impersonate GW toDay (or thought of that herself). That would make sense in order to frame someone, thus gain one day more (if she succeeded), simply a form of tactic. I don't think she'd be the EW, why would she reveal, right... Or could she, for some reason? Only if she knew she is known, or something like that, which I find improbable.
What else? My thoughts are somewhat unsystematic now. We can focus on something else while she's away. It is also possible she is EW and thinks I am a Gifted and wants me lynched. Or that I am GW (I still don't get why the EW should want to know who the GW is, but anyway - if the wolves had a good starting position, she could choose to). Or then, also one variant, that she were a GW and thought I am EW and wanted to use the lynch to find out. But now I should not have said that as she can say that was what she meant. Well then she should believe me when I say I am innocent. Anyway.
That would be probably it, ladies and gentlemen, the referee thanks you for your attention. :rolleyes:

[Lalaith]

Or we could all do as Rikae suggests and vote for her.
Then we don't waste a possible innocent, and we'll know if she's a wizard or not. She's either telling the truth or she's on the evil team. Either way it doesn´t matter if she´s lynched.

[Roa_Aoife]

I would really like to wait for Rikae to return before I vote. With her just running away, we've got far more questions than answers.

Legate, how exactly do you know that seer has not dreamed of you?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, here are the possibilities:

A. Rikae is telling the Truth. Legate is guilty. We should lynch him.

B. Rikae is lying. Legate is innocent. If we lynch him and he we find this out, then we will know for certain that Rikae is evil. GW and her crew can handle it that Night, or we can handle it the Next Day.

C. Rikae is lying about being the GW, but not about Legate. We should lynch him because we have a wolf.

If Legate is a wolf, then we can't know if A or C is correct. However, if he is innocent, then we get a definite answer on Rikae.

Sorry, my dear boy, but you've been Naughtily killing off our family. Shame on you.

Hmm, I was afraid it would come to this, but see, in any case lynching me toDay will be a mistake, I can tell you. The question is, if we "lynch" Rikae and she turns out to be the GW, will it be acceptable as not that much of a loss - only a loss of a possible Wolf lynch we could have made instead - because she otherwise revealed (she claims), so no other things will stem from that lynch - but if it ends up with her saying it's me or her, then it's clear. Also, her self-vote... does not really, really make sense. If she's playing on sentiments, that would be a good move.

I don't still understand why she revealed though. I would most likely be for lynching her - but the first thing I would like to see would be, as I said, having her around to post.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would really like to wait for Rikae to return before I vote. With her just running away, we've got far more questions than answers.

Legate, how exactly do you know that seer has not dreamed of you?

No, no, I don't know that, but I am all saying in the condition that Rikae would say she knows for sure that I am evil. Because this far she said several times that I am evil and gave no reason. I asked her why she thinks so, in my very first post of these (not the long one where I quoted everybody, but after she self-voted) and she was not around anymore to respond. So I say: If she came and claimed that she knows (i.e. that would mean by Seer dream, otherwise she couldn't know) I am evil, then it's obvious she lies - at least to me, of course. Because I know what I am and therefore I know that HER Seer (if she is the GW) could not have dreamt of me, otherwise she would know what I am. Have I made it clear?

[Roa_Aoife]

Legate, you seem awfully calm. Your last post, in light of the fact that Rikae is trying to get you lynched, seems terribly detached, as though you weren't the one in trouble.

My brains are... blegh, at the moment. Has anyone thought to do an analysis of Legate?

As a side note, hooray for the mad ammounts of analysis I've seen in this game!

[Thinlómien]

What!?!!!?

I'm back and I'm baffled.

My initial reaction was that Rikae's revelation does not look credible, but also Legate's reaction to it was rather wolvish. So I'm rather mystified.

(Hmmm... It just occured to me that Rikae might be a very bold ordo trying to flush out Legate, but that would be quite silly as she'd cause more harm than anything good.)

There's something honest in Rikae's tone and her being the GW kind of fits well with Mac being the ranger and her being so dismayed at his death. On the other hand, like so many people have said this far, there was little reason for her to reveal. If there had been a reason, she'd surely have revealed earlier and explained it, if she really was the GW. That hastiness and confusingness combined with her rather weird behaviour earlier toDay makes me think she might very well be a wolf causing confusion.

Or then she's just frustrated with all of us for getting Mac killed, does not want to play anymore and is seriously overreacting. But I think she's more calms or sensible than that.

All in all, I'm confused.


edit: xed with Legate and Roa

[Roa_Aoife]

No, no, I don't know that, but I am all saying in the condition that Rikae would say she knows for sure that I am evil. Because this far she said several times that I am evil and gave no reason. I asked her why she thinks so, in my very first post of these (not the long one where I quoted everybody, but after she self-voted) and she was not around anymore to respond. So I say: If she came and claimed that she knows (i.e. that would mean by Seer dream, otherwise she couldn't know) I am evil, then it's obvious she lies - at least to me, of course. Because I know what I am and therefore I know that HER Seer (if she is the GW) could not have dreamt of me, otherwise she would know what I am. Have I made it clear?

Yes, you have. However, I've made this very argument myself when a revealed seer has dreamed of me and found me out. (Funnily enough, the seer was Rikae.) So you'll excuse me if I give it little merit.

However, I still don't want to vote for Legate just yet. Somethings he has done have seemed suspicious to me, but I was focused on phantom at the time, so I don't really recall what it was.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Or we could all do as Rikae suggests and vote for her.
Then we don't waste a possible innocent, and we'll know if she's a wizard or not. She's either telling the truth or she's on the evil team. Either way it doesn´t matter if she´s lynched.
Yes, this is what I thought (or outlined by the post above), however, I would still really like to hear her speak. Also because of the fact that then it will be clearer for me, and I could directly say to you others: yes, I KNOW (and not just think, like now) she is lying.

To Roa (seeing the post in the preview window EDIT: I mean in 764): I am not calm, I am hyperactive, and am writing this in quite a hurry (just see how long the posts are). So it moved me in this way. But I wish to be as objective as possible, since Rikae has simply disappeared before she could see my questions - that's bad for this situation, as I said above.

X-ed with Lommy and Roa.

[Diamond18]

Oh wow!

I just had an idea.

The points Roa made about choosing between Rikae or Legate to lynch set off alarm bells in my head. Not directed at Roa, but at the fact that Rikae's reveal conveniently "forces" the village to choose between two options.

And Rikae revealed right around the time we were all discussing......

Cailin.

Yes, I'm still gnawing on that bone.

This makes Rikae's reveal look suspicious. To me. Because if I'm thinking between Legate and Cailin, well, I think Cailin looks far more evil. Far. More. Evil.

Rikae seems to be more about saving Cailin, when you consider her timing, and yet she hasn't actually said "Don't look at Cailin" cause the best way to get people to NOT look at a player is to make a big deal about another player. Capisce?

I really don't like how everyone's head has been turned away from talking about that. This narrow perspective of "well we can vote Rikae, and waste a lynch on a possible wizard, or we can vote Legate and possibly kill an innocent or happily kill a wolf" is just... makes my breakfast turn over in my stomach.

[Thinlómien]

Oh, and I thought I'd mention this. Lalaith has been screaming EW to me in every single post of hers toDay.

I also just pondered the possibility of Rikae being the EW, but then she'd have very little reason to anything like she just did. Or not any reason I can quickly think of.


edit: exed with Roa, Di and Legate

[the phantom]

I don't want to lynch Legate or Rikae. I still want to lynch Cailin.
On the other hand, like so many people have said this far, there was little reason for her to reveal. If there had been a reason, she'd surely have revealed earlier and explained it, if she really was the GW. That hastiness and confusingness combined with her rather weird behaviour earlier toDay makes me think she might very well be a wolf causing confusion.
And here's Lommy, still being as sensible as ever. It's nice to see so many people agreeing with me on this.

[Cailín]

The Rikae grand reveal has confused me as much as the rest of you. I’ve been trying to organise my thoughts about it.

If she is the GW, which she claims, what motive could she have for revealing herself?

- She has not been scried, we know this. She may know the identity of the EW, though. She will challenge him or her tomorrow, as soon as she is able, and wants to help us kill a wolf for certain today.
- If she does not know the identity of the EW, she may prefer to lead us as a known innocent for one more day, or longer if the EW chooses to stay hidden. An interesting move, but not altogether ridiculous.

If Rikae is the EW, what motives could she have for revealing?

- The longer the wizards remain alive, the more of an advantage the EW would seem to have. A new wolf every night (likely enough). The EW will generally profit from staying undercover.
- She may have been scried and knows the GW is going to challenge her tomorrow. She has nothing to lose and wants this last opportunity to confuse and misdirect the village, by pursuing, for example, innocent Legate.

Will we find out if Rikae is good or bad by trying to lynch her, or will we just be sure she is a wizard? I suppose it matters not; the other wizard will know either way and act accordingly.

[the phantom]

I just had an idea.

The points Roa made about choosing between Rikae or Legate to lynch set off alarm bells in my head. Not directed at Roa, but at the fact that Rikae's reveal conveniently "forces" the village to choose between two options.

And Rikae revealed right around the time we were all discussing......

Cailin.
I love you, little sister. :)

This is exactly what I've been thinking.

[Roa_Aoife]

Or Rikae may be trying to save Cailin because Rikae is the GW an knows that Cailin is innocent. Don't be hasty on that front.

[the phantom]

She may have been scried and knows the GW is going to challenge her tomorrow.
Since when do Wizards know when the other Wizard scried them? Or the Seer dreamed of them? I don't recall seeing that in the rules.

No, no... that doesn't work.

[Roa_Aoife]

This is exactly what I've been thinking.

Which is why I don't trust that thought.

[Thinlómien]

Di - that's a valid point but I can't see why she'd do that. I can't see any reason for wolf/EW Rikae to take such drastic means to take attention away from Cailín. Unless Rikae is a wolf and Cailín's the EW and Rikae knows her identity, but still that might seem a little... drastic? unreasonable? I mean, if I were the GW, I'd have scried Cailín already for a long time ago. She has a sort of wizardish air and I can't say she looks perfectly innocent. (Although, given the schizophrenia, I would really need to look at her more closely to judge her better.)


edit: xed with everybody since my last post

[the phantom]

Which is why I don't trust that thought.
If I said I didn't believe it anymore would you hop onto the bus?

Because I'm perfectly willing to let you drive this thing, so long as it goes where I'm thinking it should go.

[Cailín]

It's nice to see you are all so obsessed with me. :p

Did anyone actually read my defence, because it's all quite puzzling to me.

Why would an unsuspected wolf or EW reveal if I was a wolf, merely to save me? I'm already under so much suspicion that there is absolutely no chance of this working. If it works today, it will not work tomorrow. So, Di, you are obsessive, unwilling to debate, and mad.

[Thinlómien]

Somehow Cailín saying "The Rikae grand reveal has confused me as much as the rest of you." does not sit right with me at all. That "me as much as the rest of you" sounds like she would know more about the matter, or hold a special role in this drama. Most of all, it really sounds like she's the EW... :eek:


edit: xed with Cailín and phantom

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, and I thought I'd mention this. Lalaith has been screaming EW to me in every single post of hers toDay.

That's another thing. But on the other hand, she suggests lynching Rikae, although quite plainly without much doubt, at least I find it unlikely for her to be a part of "conspiracy" . Now Lommy is saying this against her, so what if Lommy is part of the conspiracy too... For the sake of it, let me point out a (possibly overstrethed, I am aware) theory: What if Lommy is the EW and Rik is a wolf? It will make sense then when it comes to what I said above.

The thing, what Di says, about out-focusing from Cailín is interesting point.

EDIT: x-ed since Lommy I quoted.

And I wanted to leave for now, at least for a while, but it's not quite good maybe at this situation, however... eh. But maybe if for a moment I leave, if no one has any things to ask me right away or something, I may.

[Diamond18]

I also just pondered the possibility of Rikae being the EW, but then she'd have very little reason to anything like she just did. Or not any reason I can quickly think of.


See my below response to Roa. The EW has way more reason to do this than an actual GW. The more I think about it, the clearer it gets.

Or Rikae may be trying to save Cailin because Rikae is the GW an knows that Cailin is innocent. Don't be hasty on that front.

I'm not. If you'll see, I said that between Cailin and Legate, I find Cailin more evil. C and L had been getting the most suspicion, it seemed, with Rikae being gungho on Legate and phantom/Gwath being gun-ho on Cailin. The GW would want to step in to save good Cailin and get evil Legate lynched, but is that so wise? So early in the day? The GW loses more by revealing.

The EW (gains more by revealing, deflecting suspicion from a wolf, and getting the village to waste a lynch on an innocent or waste it on a Wizard who can't be killed.

[Thinlómien]

Why would an unsuspected wolf or EW reveal if I was a wolf, merely to save me?Not for any reason I can think of. But if you were the EW, that would be a different thing... (just like I said before, but you might have crossed with that)


edit: xed with Legate and Di

[Roa_Aoife]

If Rikae is the EW, then she wouldn't risk trying to save her wolf with such a ploy.

(See, phantom, now that I can apply personality, I can make a judgement on what the EW would do.)

If Rikae is a wolf, then it's highly unlikely she knows who the EW is, or who any of her fellow wolves are. And its even more unlikely she would try such a risky move to save them in either case.

If Rikae is the GW, then she may be trying to save the innocent Cailin.

And here's a possibility no one has thought of (intentionally, perhaps?): Rikae may be a gifted, posing as the GW under direct orders to do so, so we can finally have a known wolf in front of us. If she's not answering our questions, then it may be that she doesn't know the answer because the GW didn't tell her everything.

[Roa_Aoife]

If I said I didn't believe it anymore would you hop onto the bus?

Because I'm perfectly willing to let you drive this thing, so long as it goes where I'm thinking it should go.

I never hop on buses. Or BANDWAGONS. Which is where this is heading. All that I seen against Cailin so far has not really convinced me she's evil.

[Thinlómien]

And here's a possibility no one has thought of (intentionally, perhaps?): Rikae may be a gifted, posing as the GW under direct orders to do so, so we can finally have a known wolf in front of us. If she's not answering our questions, then it may be that she doesn't know the answer because the GW didn't tell her everything.Hey that's an excellent point. I think you just made me a fan of this theory.... it might make the most sense. (Although - even in that case, wouldn't she have done her "revelation" more carefully...?)

Anyway, I wouldn't be too worried anyway. We lynch either Legate or Rikae, and we know what the other one is. And ith good luck, we'll find a wolf.


edit: xed with Roa

[Roa_Aoife]

See my below response to Roa. The EW has way more reason to do this than an actual GW. The more I think about it, the clearer it gets.



I'm not. If you'll see, I said that between Cailin and Legate, I find Cailin more evil. C and L had been getting the most suspicion, it seemed, with Rikae being gungho on Legate and phantom/Gwath being gun-ho on Cailin. The GW would want to step in to save good Cailin and get evil Legate lynched, but is that so wise? So early in the day? The GW loses more by revealing.

The EW (gains more by revealing, deflecting suspicion from a wolf, and getting the village to waste a lynch on an innocent or waste it on a Wizard who can't be killed.

Di, stop and think. Wolves are replaceable. The EW would not do this to save a wolf. Especially not Rikae, who has totally agreed with me in that past about sacrificing our fellows. (I've been a wolf with her.)

The EW gains nothing by this move. If we lynch Legate, and he's innocent, then we know that she is evil, and she can't go on in secret making more and more wolves. Why risk a possible two or three or even four more wolves to save the life of one? It isn't logical, and it isn't the way Rikae thinks.

[Thinlómien]

I'm going to quickly go through all posts posted that have come during my absence and reply to things I feel I have something to say. This Rikae-Legate thing is surely important, but let's not use all our energy on it. It will just benefit the evil team. The simplest course, anyway, is to lynch either Legate or Rikae.


edit: xed with Roa

[Diamond18]

So, Di, you are obsessive, unwilling to debate, and mad.

I'm not mad, I'm excited. I'm pretty sure I've uncovered an evil plot. :D

(And I LOVE all the drama today. It's what I joined this game for, after all.)

[the phantom]

Somehow Cailín saying "The Rikae grand reveal has confused me as much as the rest of you." does not sit right with me at all. That "me as much as the rest of you" sounds like she would know more about the matter, or hold a special role in this drama.
The more I think about it, the clearer it gets.
Yes, yes... I'm feeling better and better about this. The people that I generally trust seem to be getting the same exact feeling.

All right- I've pretty much made up my mind.

Rikae is not the GW.

Roa, your thoughts are good, however there's one thing that could be going on if Rikae was on the evil side. Unfortunately I can't say what it is. Or I can say, but I shouldn't.

I want to say it really bad because it's absolutely brilliant (a compliment to Rikae for trying it and to me for thinking of it), but it could seriously play into the Evil team's hands if I were to speak it.

[Roa_Aoife]

Phantom and Di's exuberance in trying to turn this back to Cailin has me rather convinced. As Lommy said, it's simplest lynch Legate or Rikae. Lynching Cailin won't answer any questions for us.

I can think of two reasons the GW may have revealed:

She wanted to save an innocent.

She wanted to give us a wolf while everyone was still around to vote on the matter.

It's possible that both are true. It's also possible that Rikae is a gifted posing as the GW to achieve both these ends.

Phantom and Di's reluctance to accept that this is a possibility concerns me greatly. Especially phantom. Because that just makes want to believe in Rikae even more.

[Roa_Aoife]

I can't hang around at the moment, but I'll be back in intervals checking in. To people who AREN'T so hell-bent on getting Cailin, please consider all the possibilities before you simply mistrust Rikae.

[Roa_Aoife]

Roa, your thoughts are good, however there's one thing that could be going on if Rikae was on the evil side. Unfortunately I can't say what it is. Or I can say, but I shouldn't.

I want to say it really bad because it's absolutely brilliant (a compliment to Rikae for trying it and to me for thinking of it), but it could seriously play into the Evil team's hands if I were to speak it.

If you really think that, then why aren't you considering voting for Legate, who is would be a certain wolf in that case? And why are you focusing on Cailin when you realize that Rikae may be trying to save her because she's innocent? Instead, you're leading everyone to think the exact opposite.

[Diamond18]

If no one is willing to consider that Cailin is a baddie (perhaps even the EW) then I will have to say... if you think we MUST vote for either Legate or Rikae, I find Rikae to be a wiser choice.

If she's bad, we've revealed the EW. Or killed a wolf.

If she's the GW, we just confirmed what she told us.

If she's a gifted, would she have self voted? Encouraged us to lynch her? Don't think so.

My gut, my impressions from all her posts, tell me Cailin is bad.

You're far more into the cold hard logic game, Roa -- I'm more about smelling evil coming off a person's tone and actions. But I've always known you to be able to get the village on your side, not matter what side you're on, because of how collected you seem. So I'm going to let this matter rest for a bit, and say that if people are going to disregard my suppositions, at least lynch Rikae. I don't think that, whatever she is, we'll be killing an ordo or gifted if we do so.

[Gwathagor]

Why would an unsuspected wolf or EW reveal if I was a wolf, merely to save me? I'm already under so much suspicion that there is absolutely no chance of this working.

I'm not sure that Rikae was entirely unsuspected. But I think you would have to be the EW for a wolf to do something this desperate. That assumes, of course, that you, as EW, would have revealed yourself to at least one of your minions. Hmm.

[Diamond18]

OK I said I'd let this go, but not without one more comment:

Lynching Cailin won't answer any questions for us.

Yes, it will. It would tell us who Cailin is; good, bad, wizardly. You can't say it won't answer ANY questions. That's just a completely untruth, no matter what Cailin's role is.

[Gwathagor]

So, IF Rikae is trying to distract us from Cailin with a phony "reveal", then Cailin must be the EW. And if that is the case, tp, then it is useless to try to lynch Cailin and really does make more sense to lynch Rikae, as Roa has pointed out. However, the Rikae-Cailin connection is highly speculative.

[Roa_Aoife]

If no one is willing to consider that Cailin is a baddie (perhaps even the EW) then I will have to say... if you think we MUST vote for either Legate or Rikae, I find Rikae to be a wiser choice.

If she's bad, we've revealed the EW. Or killed a wolf.

If she's the GW, we just confirmed what she told us.

If she's a gifted, would she have self voted? Encouraged us to lynch her? Don't think so.

My gut, my impressions from all her posts, tell me Cailin is bad.

You're far more into the cold hard logic game, Roa -- I'm more about smelling evil coming off a person's tone and actions. But I've always known you to be able to get the village on your side, not matter what side you're on, because of how collected you seem. So I'm going to let this matter rest for a bit, and say that if people are going to disregard my suppositions, at least lynch Rikae. I don't think that, whatever she is, we'll be killing an ordo or gifted if we do so.

That's just it, Di. You can't know that she isn't a gifted. And if she is the GW or a gifted, then not only have we revealed that fact for certain to the EW, not only have we killed a gifted, then we've also passed up a wolf that's been handed to us on a silver platter.

It's better to lynch Legate. In any case, Rikae is not foolish enough to lie about that claim unless she was handing us a wolf to make us believe her. He's stated already that he is not a gifted, or at least not the seer, so we lose that risk right there. It's far less risky to lynch him than her.

Curious: Why not Legate?

[Roa_Aoife]

OK I said I'd let this go, but not without one more comment:



Yes, it will. It would tell us who Cailin is; good, bad, wizardly. You can't say it won't answer ANY questions. That's just a completely untruth, no matter what Cailin's role is.

I'm sorry, I meant it won't answer any question regarding Legate and Rikae. Not for certain. If she is evil, then all we have regarding Rikae is your and phantom's theory about Rikae trying to protect, which is pretty flimsy.

[Lalaith]

Roa, are you saying that the EW wouldn´t do anything to save a wolf but the GW would do anything to save an innocent? This just doesn't make sense.
If Rikae is on the evil team, she's got one motive. To wreak havoc and confusion in the vilage. And she's succeeded.
There's another thing. Legate, lets say you are what you say, an ord. Lets say Rikae is lying. In which case she's either a wolf or she's a wizard, but the evil kind. If she's the EW, and we lynch her, she doesn't die. So we think she's the GW. And then perhaps she's planning on turning you in the night, and making her own statements come true. Even more confusion in the village than there is already. Oh hell, oh spite.

For what its worth, Legate, I had been kind of thinking you were innocent. The wolf Legate I played with, before, was urbane, helpful and charming. Who's this rude git, I wondered?
Lalaith! She is actually playing? I said something about submarines yesterDay, but if there are any which are really, really deep, then it is her. Unbelievable. I knew she was a subject to vote and such, but if I try to remember anything about her from this game, I don't recall anything.

The innocent version?

[Thinlómien]

Lommy, the biggest problem I have with you analysis is that you have an assumption that, in my mind, is invalid. I don't think the EW would reveal the identity of the other wolves. It seems easier to have the wolves remain undected if they don't know each other.I never claimed I assumed so. I just wanted to see what turns up if we assume so. And there was nothing interesting, as you see.

P.S. <3 Dury and her shamelessly letting others promote her. Will you be my mistress?I just might have to vote Nilp after all. :mad:

Actually, you seemed to be thinking about Agan since Day One. Why? What was it that was suspicious about her? I think that was pretty much all I was talking about yesterDay... :rolleyes: Anyway, her tone/style, mostly, and later the fact that she "suspected" me. Usually she 99% right aabout my role so this total misinterpretation made me rise my eyebrows even more.

Lommy, remember that WerePenguin game? Remember the way Boro and Ang set off my alarms from the get-go. That's how I'm feeling with Cailin.Yes, I do. But I don't like the way you're trying to befirend me... I don't trust you.

McCaber, morm and Kath are real submarines. Greenie has slipped under my radar too.

I don't like it how Lalaith is so blindly working on the principle that the EW is dying to find the GW. Surely he wants to find her, but is it his sole scrying principle? I doubt that. After all, he's far less desperate for a duel than the GW...

I disagree. Even if the wolves knew one another's identities, I'd still think it quite probable there is a wolf among a bandwagon against a fellow.On Day1 when they get more kills if they all survive the Day? Unlikely.

I also don't understand why Lommy posted:
STOP TRUSTING MY JUDGEMENT ON AGANZIR!!!!!!!!!!
Or something similar. Weird thing to say. Very eager to direct the accusations but unwilling to take too much responsibility?The simple answer: I was annoyed. I was not sure about Agan's role and it irked me that peple believed me simply because we're RL friends. That doesn't make me infallible about her, wuite the contrary.

äääääääääääääääööööööööööööööööööööööööööö
Downloaded a program to do that even on my American keyboard. That almost freaks even a Finn out... ;) (We have separate keys for ä and ö.)

Lalaith said I'm a very likely scry, and I agree. I'm sure the people who matter know what I am by now.I really am not this great player everybody thinks I am, and the fact that everybody thinks so makes me more prominent than I rightly should be. I would not give a role to me - you don't get the skill to match the hype - but I don't doubt I've been scried.This is an interesting line, and weird, but it kind of matches with the current speculations about her role...

I've only skimmed the thing between Lommy and Aganzir, and vaguely remembering the game where it was an all-female wolf pack..Volo's game.. I remember (if correctly) Lommy and Aganzir were both wolves - and Lommy claimed gifted. So I wouldn't put it past either of them to be up to shenanigans together. I think most of us believe that the wolves and EW don't know each other. Could be very true, but I don't think the EW has to let ALL of the wolves know/communicate between themselves. If they'd picked two particularly sneaky schemers, s/he could've informed the two of each other and let them loose on the board.That was an awesome game, but I wouldn't compare it to this one. I only claimed to be gifted when I was feeling I'd get caught anyway, more to stir the pot than to actually save myself or any of my fellows.

Why Lalaith seems EW ish to me is that she's thinking so much from the Ew perspective. Also, she looks like she was asking advice from Roa the ex-EW.


edit: xed with everything but Di's post after mine...

[Roa_Aoife]

Roa, are you saying that the EW wouldn´t do anything to save a wolf but the GW would do anything to save an innocent? This just doesn't make sense.


Isn't it the GW's job to ensure our victory? Isn't one way to do that saving the innocent and pointing out the evil? And did you entirely miss the idea that Rikae may be a gifted acting under the GW's orders?

I'm saying that a Rikae EW wouldn't risk it. I think that a Rikae GW might. I think that any GW may very well use a gifted as an emissary to the village. It's not as risky as you think.

I knew who Gurthang was for Days, before I challenged him. In fact, I didn't challenge him until I was revealed. The GW may safely reveal and the EW won't do a thing abut it except try to guess the gifteds.

[Celuien]

Oh my goodness. :eek:

This is certainly a very confusing turn of events... and none of it really makes sense to me at all. At this point in the game, the village is down by one gifted with Mac's death last night - we only have a hunter and seer. Against four wolves. So with those numbers, it doesn't make sense for the GW to reveal - it would make more sense to try and get another gifted in the roster. Especially since there's no dueling allowed until toMorrow. And again, why reveal to the EW when there's no way that the EW could have found out who the GW is without a reveal? So, no, this doesn't make sense to me at all.

At the same time, I can't think of any good motives to impersonate the GW either... there didn't seem to be any indication that the GW was going to be flushed out of hiding (unless I missed something in my rather cursory skimming of the last few pages). All it does is cause distraction and confusion - look at us all sitting here and debating what the reveal means!

Now, it would make sense for a wolf to try to cause this kind of distraction. I think that this might be the most logical explanation. The EW may have given instructions to cause confusion today - and I've seen some gifted impersonation in the past by tricksy werewolves, so this would fit the pattern.

I don't think there's any attempt to shield Cailin involved. Wolves are fairly expendable so long as the EW is around... And it makes no sense at all for the EW to protect a replaceable wolf with such a dramatic gesture, so I think that excludes a Rikae/Cailin wolf/EW combination. I also don't think they are both wolves because I still hold to the theory that the EW wouldn't necessarily tell the wolves each other's identities while the GW could potentially unscry one of them to become an ordo, and then end up with (at least part) of the pack given away.

So, after all that, I think that Rikae is probably bad to the bone because she's the one doing the distracting right now. Despite the timing of the reveal, I don't think it tells us anything one way or the other about Cailin for reasons given above. At this point, I'm very inclined to vote for Rikae. If she's telling the truth about being the GW, we can't lynch her anyway - and she'll still have tonight to give one last gifted - and we won't change the duel tomorrow if we confirm her identity. If she's lying, we've rid ourselves of another nasty wolf. But I'll lurk a little longer before casting my vote.

[Roa_Aoife]

Lommy, remember that WerePenguin game? Remember the way Boro and Ang set off my alarms from the get-go. That's how I'm feeling with Cailin.

As I recall, I was the only one cally for Boromir's lynch on Day 1, until the seer, who was almost lynched, came forward and confirmed what I was saying. Stop taking credit for my work. :P

[Roa_Aoife]

I find it amusing that most of the people who have raised my suspicions are the ones for lynching Rikae.

[the phantom]

Okay, that does it!

Ever since Rikae revealed I've been trying to get people's reactions. I wanted to get reactions from Rikae especially, to find out more about her, but she went and left.

There have been lots of reactions to the reveal and the things surrounding it, but none have been truly telling thus far, except that I see that nearly everyone on both sides of the issue seems to honestly be trying to figure this thing out and is really using their brains.

But the time for speculation is over.

I knew from the moment Rikae revealed that she was not the GW.

Why?

Because I've been trading pms with the real GW since Night 1.

Last night I was suddenly told to switch my Hunter pick to Cailin, and told that at least if I died now my death would make for an awesome narrative. ;)

Lynch Cailin.

Yes, yes, I didn't really want to reveal when we're already down a gifted (we actually had a plan for me to fake reveal as the GW on Day 2 before we went and lost Volo :(), but I felt that I had to. The GW isn't ready to reveal yet and I certainly don't want the Seer to have to step up, so I feel that I have no choice here.

After all, we actually have a chance to cut the WWs down to three, and possibly even keep it at three during the Night if the scry goes well!

Lynch Cailin please.

Leave Rikae to the GW.

Leave Legate alone.

[Diamond18]

That's just it, Di. You can't know that she isn't a gifted.

Yeah but I can suppose that Gifted Rikae wouldn't stick her neck out this far. Gifteds aren't supposed to stick their necks out during the day, their work gets done at night. Pretending to be the GW and voting for herself seems pretty reckless for a Gifted.

And if she is the GW or a gifted, then not only have we revealed that fact for certain to the EW, not only have we killed a gifted, then we've also passed up a wolf that's been handed to us on a silver platter.

This platter doesn't look silver to me. I keep saying this, you keep being perplexed about my mistrust. It looks like a lead platter. That's why I keep finding subversive reasons for Rikae's actions.

It's better to lynch Legate. In any case, Rikae is not foolish enough to lie about that claim unless she was handing us a wolf to make us believe her.

Killing an innocent Legaate potentially leaves her with 5 wolves after the night is out. That's good for her, bad for the village. Besides, if she is the EW or a Wolf, the GW knows it by now. Who cares about the village. We're impotent. If she's bad, the person who matters already knows. Honestly.

[QUOTECurious: Why not Legate?[/QUOTE]

Because, Rikae wants us to, and since I don't trust her reveal. It does not seem wise, from the GW's perspective, to reveal herself at this stage in the game, and all my suspicions stem from the fact that it doesn't seem like Good Wizardly behavior.

This leads me to mistrust her and what she wants the village to do. She wants us to either vote for her, or Legate. But it seems that she wants us to go for Legate, over her.

Look at it this way. Bad Rikae gets us to lynch Innocent Legate. The village is down another innocent and hasn't caught a wolf. The Good Wizard can try to scry a possible wolf and get that wolf to turn, but who to scry? Rikae? If Rikae is a wolf, that's one less wolf. But if Rikae is the EW, then the GW gains that knowledge but doesn't get to turn a Wolf to an Ordo. Plus, the GW doesn't get to turn an Ordo into a Ranger.

Five wolves, no Ranger.

The GW is playing by Rikae the EW's rules, now, eh?

Plus, face it. If Rikae is evil she's probably taking a look at who doesn't trust her. I have a feeling this is what tp is talking about (and his conscientiousness is admirable) in his post about a possible motivation that he doesn't want to talk about. But if Rikae is indeed evil, she already knows her motivation so it's moot to hide it from everyone else. I already said it, before I got the idea that she was protecting Cailin. She's trying to flush out the GW! By making her reveal, and looking at who does and does not doubt.

Hey, okay, you're now going to say, "Oh, what, Di, are you the GW? Is that what you're saying?"

No, I'm just saying I'm not as stupid as my joking antics might lead you to believe, this little ordo doesn't like to blindly trust weird, unnecessary looking reveals. And the more people who don't openly trust her, the less easy it is for her to figure out who knows for sure she's lying.

My thought is that the GW is too canny to fall for this trap, and is pretending to believe her. Judging from the amount of people not agreeing with me, I'm hoping this is the case, anyway.

I've probably xposted with a lost of people. :rolleyes:

[Diamond18]

Oh for the love of.... I've cross posted with everyone since the post by Roa that I was responding to.

SEE? tp has revealed (well, if you trust him, oh, this is going to cause headaches) and that's exactly what an evil Rikae probably wanted. To at least flush out a gifted, if not the GW.

I have to read everyone else's posts now.

[A Little Green]

Aaaargh! I thought I'd post but now that I've read the thread this far I haven't got a clue. This is just too damn confusing. I don't trust Rikae, but I don't trust phantom either. I need to think. Back with thoughts if I ever get those. :confused:


EDIT: x-ed with Di's last

[Brinniel]

Oh good god. A whole another four pages while I was gone. :rolleyes:

Just checking in....in case anyone's missed me. :D I haven't read anything since page 17, so I'll be back in an hour or more.

[Roa_Aoife]

Too many reveals in a Day. To reveal as the Hunter was a foolish move, Phantom. The EW can simply scry you and then kill you to avoid any danger. You should have revealed as something else.

Which is why I find your reveal to be the most difficult of all to trust.

I haven't the time to stick around now.

++Legate

Am I certain? No. I couldn't possibly be. But don't trust phantom's reveal. It simply is unwise. Furthermore, Phantom, unless the GW revealed to you, which I doubt, you can't know that Rikae isn't on your side. And if she is the EW, it's likely she'll hand us a wolf to make herself more credible.

[Roa_Aoife]

And it wouldn't be the first time you lied about being the hunter...

[satansaloser2005]

Well, crap. Sorry I haven't been here, my mother dropped by my house for a couple hours....and I kinda slept in. :rolleyes:

Okay, I haven't trusted Rikae for a while now. She put words in my mouth (I didn't mention Legate in EITHER of my analyses of the others, at least not in detail) and she's way too....just odd. I'm going to go over posts, but for now I either want her lynched or....or something else. While I don't trust Phantom completely, based on my already bad impression of Rikae I'm more than happy to believe him.

By the way, I left my Cailin, etc. notes at my house. (Sorry, I'm a nutter today!) I'm going to head off somewhere in an hour or two so I can be in a proper place to get internet (i.e. a coffee shop or something, as opposed to my parking lot hehe). Bearing that in mind, I'll be quiet for a bit, but the last hour or so I'll be here in full force. And for reference, at the moment my first two lynch choices are Rikae and Cailin, in no particular order. On about your business.



EDIT: x'd with the posts since Gramma Greenie. Flipping eh, this is giving me a headache.

[the phantom]

And if she is the EW, it's likely she'll hand us a wolf to make herself more credible.
You had better freakin' hope so, since you elected to vote for the target of a known evil-doer rather than the known WW.
But don't trust phantom's reveal. It simply is unwise.
No it isn't! We have to get the number of WWs under control to limit kills! And I know a WW!
And it wouldn't be the first time you lied about being the hunter...
Ha ha ha! :D

Yes, and if you recall I was on the right side in that village. ;)

[the phantom]

Phantom, unless the GW revealed to you, which I doubt, you can't know that Rikae isn't on your side.
The GW did reveal to me- on the very first Night. We've been pming directly.

Don't know about the other gifteds like Volo, but with me that was the case.

PS No, I didn't know Volo was the Seer till after he was dead. So no, the GW didn't completely reveal everyone to me. I'm not trying to say that.

[Lalaith]

Ok, things are feeling a bit clearer now.
Phantom's been acting upfront and stroppy all game, even by his standards. Being the Hunter might fit in with that. Hmmm.

I'm going off to eat supper now, and will chew over all these events, as well as my food. Back soon.

[Diamond18]

Whom to trust? tp or Roa? (Rikae is practically a non-object since she ran away with very little explanation of herself.)

Well, I think it's obvious. Good or bad intentions, tp's been sharing my views on this whole mess and I'm not going to start disagreeing with him now that he's claimed special knowledge to make his case more credible.

Still, I kind of want to hold my vote, to see if I should vote for Cailin (who I want to vote for) or Rikae (to save us the ignominy of lynching a quite possibly innocent Legate).

It's not even 3 PM (three hours till the deadline). Oy vey. How much drama and arguments can we pack into three hours???

I love WW... even if the first day or so can be a little annoying with little to go on, by Day 3 at least there are heaps of drama to be had by all.

[the phantom]

Phantom's been acting upfront and stroppy all game, even by his standards. Being the Hunter might fit in with that. Hmmm.
Well, the goal was for me to look ridiculously bold, as if I didn't fear a lynch much. That way it would be believable when/if I came forward as the GW.

There were several things that could have happened after that, but I'm sure that we will all get to talk about that plenty post-game.

[Gwathagor]

Oh man this is crazy.

I don't trust either Rikae or TP (with you there, ALG). However, there seem to be more reasons to lynch Rikae than anyone else.

Regarding Celuien's point that the GW would be unlikely to reveal at this point, because the good side was down a gifted: wouldn't the GW just be able to scry up a Ranger toNight? How would revealing inhibit this action?

That said, I agree that there seems to be little reason for revealing as GW at this point in the game, and if there was, Rikae certainly would have given more explanation than she did - were she good. A legit GW would have been careful to reveal herself only when it was to the greatest advantage of the village, and, so far, I can't see much good that has come out of Rikae's reveal. This is the most persuasive point against her: that her "reveal" has NOT been helpful.

[Nogrod]

I don't see a reason to hide the EW's identity from us, I mean, there can be no duel before tomorrow but that doesn't mean you can't tell us who the EW is? Or am I misinterpreting the rules again? Nogrod?No you aren't Di. There is no ruling as to what people can or can not say and when, as long as they behave and do not insult others. Only things said that affect the game-mechanics in a straightforward fashion are your votes.


Another thing: ToDay I seem to be even less cabable of following the thread than yesterDay as Lommy and Greenie need to play (I only knew to answer this question after Lommy told me there was a question here).

I'll end the Day in time and as soon as I have the result I will disclose it but the narration may then take some time - as I need to read the Day first... :rolleyes:

[Gwathagor]

Of course, Rikae did have to rush off all quick-like. I, for one, am going to reserve judgment until Rikae comes back and explains herself. Assuming she's back before DL. Time to sit back and observe the fireworks.

[the phantom]

I don't trust either Rikae or TP (with you there, ALG). However, there seem to be more reasons to lynch Rikae than anyone else.
If you are inclined to lean towards Rikae's guilt, please lynch Cailin.

The fact is, I know she's a WW. I don't know what Rikae is for sure.

If she's the EW then we will have blown our chance of cutting the WWs down to three. The only thing we'd accomplish is revealing her, which the GW or Seer will do tonight anyway if we just leave her alone.

Lynch the known wolf- Cailin.

Leave Rikae be for right now.

[Celuien]

Regarding Celuien's point that the GW would be unlikely to reveal at this point, because the good side was down a gifted: wouldn't the GW just be able to scry up a Ranger toNight? How would revealing inhibit this action?
Yes, but a reveal would make tonight the last night available since a duel is highly likely tomorrow... if there weren't a reveal now, there would at least be a full roster of gifted tomorrow, plus one extra night for seering/scrying. And there's the what if scenario where the one who's scried turns out to be a wolf, and all we get is the return of an ordo with no chance to fill out the roster. Does that make more sense?

And ugh. More reveals. My head hurts.

[Thinlómien]

Why on earth would Rikae be the EW? That does not make sense. I'm not trusting tp, but I'm not claiming he's faking. I'm just unsure. The best course might be to lynch Rikae. She's either wolf, GW or hunter, and so we either a) lynch a wolf, b) lynch no one or c) lynch a hunter who takes down a wolf. We can't really lose if we lynch her, we can just not win.

If we lynch Cailín, it's a complete shot at the dark. We may (quite probably) get rid of a wolf, but we may as well lynch an ordo, a gifted or a wizard. Pretty much the same goes for lynching Legate.

I think we should lynch Rikae now and investigate this phantom-Cailín tangle toMorrow.


edit: xed with Celuien

[Diamond18]

Yes, but a reveal would make tonight the last night available since a duel is highly likely tomorrow... if there weren't a reveal now, there would at least be a full roster of gifted tomorrow, plus one extra night for seering/scrying. And there's the what if scenario where the one who's scried turns out to be a wolf, and all we get is the return of an ordo with no chance to fill out the roster. Does that make more sense?

Yes. YES! Celuien makes sense.

If we don't kill a wolf today, (CAILIN) the GW is force to scry her tonight to make her an ordo. The GW doesn't get to make a Ranger!!!!

If we kill Cailin, we're down a wolf and the GW gets to make a Ranger in the night!

Honestly, I find tp's claim to be the Hunter believable. He's been acting like he owns the world ever since Day 1, which does fit with the notion that he's got a lethal power and knows who the GW is. (Since Night 1). He's been consistent. Consistency is a good thing.

[Lalaith]

I'm not trusting tp, but I'm not claiming he's faking

Lommy, that's just beyond weird. If you don't trust him, then he's faking. If you don't think he's faking, then trust him.

I do need to read everything posted so far very closely - I think a crisis does bring out the best or worst in people.
But I think most of the villagers I've seen post so far are feeling in the same boat as me - confused and trying to make sense of things. Roa and Lommy however have been a bit, well, off. The intellectual rigour I would expect from both of these ladies, if innocent, just hasn't been there. Hmmm, I say, again.

[the phantom]

No, Lommy, don't you start this now.

If you believe me, lynch Cailin!

If you believe Rikae, you might as well just lynch me rather than Legate.

But I hope that I can convince you that I'm the good guy. Hold on one sec. Let me prepare a post that might help everyone think this through.

[Diamond18]

Sorry tp, I know you aren't the EW. Besides, I'm not entirely opposed to lynching the EW, anyway.

++Rikae


Oh, the irony.

[the phantom]

the phantom = Good Guy

Let's think this through.

What am I hoping to accomplish if I am evil? I must be trying to accomplish something, right?

What are the possibilities?

1) Get Cailin lynched.

But would I really take such a risk just to lynch someone that there is no possible way I know their identity? It would be one thing if I knew Cailin was the Seer or something, but sorry, the EW and WWs don't know anything of the sort. It is obviously ridiculous for the EW or a WW to reveal just to lynch someone.

2) Protect Legate.

But that makes no sense. The only Evil player worth protecting like that would be the EW, and Legate can't possibly be the EW since Rikae's already said he's a WW. And you know good and well that another WW is not going to reveal himself just to protect another WW that has already been discovered. It makes no sense. (And even more obviously the EW won't reveal just to save an already discovered WW.)

Read those two points carefully. If you don't understand them, please ask for clarification.

It makes no logical sense that I would be a lying Baddie.

Period.

[Diamond18]

Lommy, that's just beyond weird. If you don't trust him, then he's faking. If you don't think he's faking, then trust him.

Lommy has been all over the freaking place since Rikae revealed. Either she'd boggled out of her mind or she's evil. Srsly.

Roa and Lommy however have been a bit, well, off. The intellectual rigour I would expect from both of these ladies, if innocent, just hasn't been there. Hmmm, I say, again.

I'll say. And the more I think about it, the more I'm seeing Rikae as the Evil Wizard, and Cailin, Lommy, and Roa as wolves.

Hmmmm... the fourth wolf... if I had to bet on it... would be Shasta.

[A Little Green]

phantom, however certain you were (or pretended to be) of Cailín's furriness, we others can't know that unless we choose to blindly trust your word (which I am not inclined to do as yet - it's too risky). I think lynching Rikae looks the best option now. Her role will reveal much of tp as well...

One option that has been discussed fairly little is that tp and Rikae were actually both evil. I don't consider that probable, I don't even see the sense of it (:rolleyes: ) it just popped into my mind while I considered my agony about the fact that I don't really trust either of them.

If you believe me, lynch Cailin!

If you believe Rikae, you might as well just lynch me rather than Legate.Well but the thing is, at least on my part, that I don't know who to trust. Therefore I think the lynch of Rikae is the best option as it will reveal most and includes the smallest chance of a fatal error.

Man, this is getting mad...


EDIT: x-ed from Di onwards

[Gwathagor]

Lommy has been all over the freaking place since Rikae revealed. Either she'd boggled out of her mind or she's evil. Srsly.

I'll say. And the more I think about it, the more I'm seeing Rikae as the Evil Wizard, and Cailin, Lommy, and Roa as wolves.

Hmmmm... the fourth wolf... if I had to bet on it... would be Shasta.

I would not be surprised to learn that Lommy had been scried into a wolf last Night following Aganzir's death, because Lommy's part in that lynching would render her exceptionally innocent-looking.

[A Little Green]

Concerning your two-point theory, phantom: what if your aim is to make Rikae's claim empty? Wouldn't it be quite a good situation for a wolf, if everyone believed him to be Gifted? Cailín might be a fellow you are sacrificing (following the EW's orders) in order to buy credibility in the village. So you tell us to lynch Cailín, and if we do and she turns out to be a wolf, then everyone has proof of your "innocence". Good plan, huh?

I'm still not decided on you, phantom; it could be as I described above, or you could be telling the truth, but since I can't know I suggest we lynch Rikae.


EDIT: x-ed with Gwathie

[Celuien]

It's coming down to the following for me:

I'm pretty sure Rikae is a baddie. More specifically, I really think she's a wolf, since I don't think it makes sense for the EW to expose herself.

The question is if I think the phantom is an ordo pulling off a grand bluff or if I accept that he's the Hunter. That breaks into the following decision tree:

If tp is the Hunter, then Cailin is a Wolf, since the instruction to change the hunt choice may well have been the result of a dream - particularly with the level of certainty that he's displaying about her role.

If tp is bluffing, then Cailin could be a wolf or an ordo.

I'll vote for one of the two after giving tp's reveal more thought... right now I'm more certain of Rikae's guilt, but if tp had specific instructions, that changes everything. Like the decision tree up there says.

Must... think...

[Rikae]

Well, I'm back.

I'm sorry I had to leave so abruptly. Anyway, yes, Legate is a wolf, and my seer dreamt of him. I didn't want to tell you what else I knew, because it would play too much into the EW's hands. I expected toNight to be my last night, and I wanted to make the most of it.

Seeing the reactions has certainly been helpful. Now, I don't know about Cailin - if you lynch her, you're most likely lynching an innocent, unless she is a wolf chosen for sacrifice or not known to the others. I've given you Legate, and tp apparently figured I already knew him and decided to try this desperate tactic. If you insist, at least by lynching me you won't do any harm.

[Lalaith]

Lommy had been scried into a wolf last Night following Aganzir's death, because Lommy's part in that lynching would render her exceptionally innocent-looking.


Ok, that's interesting.
I've been thinking (if phantom is right) that it's Cailin that was turned last night.
But lets say that Cailin was turned the previous night. Then her "oh it was Eomer yesterday not me" thing would fall into place, I suppose.

Both Lommy and Cailin were on my list of 'new' wolves. I know that my scrying theory was challenged by some people - and I do see that it has flaws, in that many EWs might sit back and wait. But on the other hand, if you're assembling a crack WW team, wouldn't potential wizards be the ones to go for?
And why is Lommy worried that I was thinking like an EW? I said I was. To catch wolves. What's wrong with that?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Last night I was suddenly told to switch my Hunter pick to Cailin, and told that at least if I died now my death would make for an awesome narrative.
Well, I am inclined to believe you being a Hunter, it would fit, as it was mentioned here by some, the more "hop-huaa" behavior of yours.

SEE? tp has revealed (well, if you trust him, oh, this is going to cause headaches) and that's exactly what an evil Rikae probably wanted. To at least flush out a gifted, if not the GW.
That's what I thought might have been also a reason. I also thought something else, but forgot it. Heck, what it was? Maybe I will remember.

If you are inclined to lean towards Rikae's guilt, please lynch Cailin.

The fact is, I know she's a WW. I don't know what Rikae is for sure.
So you know she is a WW? Or did the GW just tell you to Hunt her, well, that does not necessarily mean she is a WW, you know what I mean? Maybe it's just a suspect for a Wolf. With Rikae then, we would be sure (or surer) there is some sinister idea behind all of that, whatever she is. But I agree that we should agree on something. And right now... right now if you say Cailín, I may as well be persuaded to do so, but... what do the others think.

EDIT: X-ed since Di

[the phantom]

Concerning your two-point theory, phantom: what if your aim is to make Rikae's claim empty? Wouldn't it be quite a good situation for a wolf, if everyone believed him to be Gifted? Cailín might be a fellow you are sacrificing (following the EW's orders) in order to buy credibility in the village.
Nope. That doesn't work.

If I'm lying then the true GW (Rikae in this case) knows it! So she will just turn me during the Night rendering the entire plan worthless, and also knocking the number of WWs down to two, which is plain dumb at this point.
I'm still not decided on you, phantom; it could be as I described above, or you could be telling the truth, but since I can't know I suggest we lynch Rikae.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS!!

If you are leaning towards mistrusting Rikae, vote for Cailin!!

That is the logical thing to do!!

If I'm the one telling the truth, then we have ourselves a WW! Lynch her!
and tp apparently figured I already knew him and decided to try this desperate tactic
I don't try desperate tactics. I try good ones. ;)

[satansaloser2005]

This is ridiculous.

Believe Phantom or not, he makes more sense than Rikae's "Let's kill Legate, I know for sure he's a wolf. Oh yeah, and I Nilp myself." (With love, Father dear) If you are POSITIVE he's a wolf, you kill him! After that last bit about her seer dreaming my sweet Legate, I'm even less likely to believe her. *bells going off! bells going off!*


She's lying, I'm almost positive of it. EW or puppet wolf? It's hard to tell. But either way, I'm sure she's evil.


By the way, if she is the wizard, yes if we lynch her she doesn't die. But that would only prove she was a wizard, not the GW as she is claiming.



All right, leaving again (apologies. it's just so flipping hot and I can't afford to leave my car running for a long time while I catch up and post). I don't know if I want to lynch Rikae or not, because if she's the EW she won't die. I'm still up for a Cailin lynch, although I'll talk more about that later. Dunno for now. Back later. (Sorry again guys and gals!)

[Lalaith]

Oh man this is crazy.


I know - great, isn't it?! :cool: I'm so glad all this happened on the weekend when I was around properly to enjoy it.


So you know she is a WW? Or did the GW just tell you to Hunt her, well, that does not necessarily mean she is a WW, you know what I mean? Maybe it's just a suspect for a Wolf.
It's this sort of speculation, Legate, which leads me to suspect you really are innocent. (Aside from the bloody rudeness :rolleyes:) I mean, if you were a wolf, you wouldn't care whether we went for Cailin or Rikae.

[Thinlómien]

Phantom could also be lying just to cause confusion.

Rikae's return kind of ruined everything. Her tone seems quite honest... yet lynching her might still be the best choice....

And why is Lommy worried that I was thinking like an EW? I said I was. To catch wolves. What's wrong with that?Because you're doing it in such extent and it seems like coming very naturally to you - as if you had already pondered those things...

I would not be surprised to learn that Lommy had been scried into a wolf last Night following Aganzir's death, because Lommy's part in that lynching would render her exceptionally innocent-looking.In that case, why not kill me? Scrying me looks kind of too obvious. Maybe I shouldn't say this, though, since I was half-expecting to be scried by the EW. :rolleyes: Personally I believe I was left unkilled and unscried because Mac might have been protecting me and because some people believed I and Agan were in cahoots and thus I would not look that innocent toDay even as Agan was proved a wolf.


edit: xed with phantom, sally and Lalaith

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyway, yes, Legate is a wolf, and my seer dreamt of him.

Well, then it is clear. And given the way Rikae speaks about phantom, it makes me think that phantom is not lying. But the question, as posed, is the above - whom to vote for, now that it's clear. Rikae is surely up to no good. Cailín, from my pov, if I believe phantom's words, most likely. Heck, Rikae, if she is something, can be lynched toMorrow, and if phantom is her accomplice, he can be done after that, and then... whatever. I would go for trusting phantom, at least for now.

Otherwise, speaking of other people - just for the case that I won't be here toMorrow to say that: there was Lommy, who indeed "was all over the place since Rikae revealed", and I already proposed before that she may have been innocent at start but scried. That's one thing I am currently pondering as probability.

After all of this I am feeling better of Lalaith... and of Gwath also, somewhat.

[the phantom]

Phantom could also be lying just to cause confusion.
Yeesh, you people. :rolleyes:

Yeah, because that makes total sense. When your team is already in trouble, go and commit suicide just to cause a bit of very temporary confusion. That makes total sense. :rolleyes:

Just to make sure everyone sees it, from this point on I'm going to put a link in every one of my posts which will take you back to the post in which I demonstrate that TP=Bad makes absolutely no sense.

Believe me (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=558330&postcount=828).

[satansaloser2005]

By the way. My last post was not directed toward any of you. "This is ridiculous" is more of the situation in general, not the way people are dealing with it. Just letting that be known, as it looked a little rude to me. Okay, leaving now before I end up being a sauteed Sally. Play nice while I'm gone kiddos.

[satansaloser2005]

Yeesh, you people. :rolleyes:

Yeah, because that makes total sense. When your team is already in trouble, go and commit suicide just to cause a bit of very temporary confusion. That makes total sense. :rolleyes:

Just to make sure everyone sees it, from this point on I'm going to put a link in every one of my posts which will take you back to the post in which I demonstrate that TP=Bad makes absolutely no sense.

Believe me (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=558330&postcount=828).


Hehe. Phantom, if you're ever in Crete, call me and remind me I owe you a hug for keeping me amused. Silly guy. *is really leaving now*

[Thinlómien]

When your team is already in trouble, go and commit suicide just to cause a bit of very temporary confusion. That makes total sense. :rolleyes:Wait - evil team is in trouble? Since when? I thought we were the ones in trouble... What do you mean by evil team being in trouble? For all I can see they're probably laughing at everybody right now and I can see no particular reason for them to be in trouble. Why do you think they're in trouble? Do you know who the evil team are as you claim that? Was that a slip? Or am I missing something? This is rather confusing...


edit: xed with the double-sallie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It's this sort of speculation, Legate, which leads me to suspect you really are innocent. (Aside from the bloody rudeness :rolleyes:) I mean, if you were a wolf, you wouldn't care whether we went for Cailin or Rikae.
Thank you. Speaking of that, phantom, will you please answer that? (look up the question in Lalaith's post I quoted)

Phantom could also be lying just to cause confusion.

Rikae's return kind of ruined everything. Her tone seems quite honest... yet lynching her might still be the best choice....
Oh you are soo obvious!
No, really, Lommy, you are trying to keep your distance, appear yet undecided, if possibly you could not find support for trusting Rikae. If you are innocent, by all believe me that Rikae is lying. If not, then it is clear what you are, and that you are trying to do what I just said.

[the phantom]

I seriously don't understand you people coming up with these terrible reasons for why I would step up and reveal if I'm actually a Baddie.

You can't just say "to cause confusion". You need to stop and think what my action will RESULT in (as far as lynches, scries, dreams, hunts, etc). My move needs to make some sort of logical sense, meaning that my move would have to give my team an advantage greater than the price of losing a WW.

Or in Green's idea, in which she suggests both Cai and I are WWs, you need to think of how my move could possibly give my team an advantage greater than the price of two WWs.

Think, people!!

Don't just feel! THINK!

. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=558330&postcount=828)

[Thinlómien]

Okay, phantom, why not lynch Rikae? If she's lying like you claim, she's a ww. So it shouldn't matter to you whether we lynch one "known wolf" (Rikae) or another (Cailín). So why are you so adamant on lynching Cailín, not Rikae?


edit: xed with phantom and Legate

[Diamond18]

The more I think about, the less of an option lynching Rikae is. It's just going to force the GW to scry Cailin in the night, to get rid of a wolf, and then there won't be a Ranger.

If you want to be "safe" (ha!) and vote Rikae, go ahead. If she gets her way, she (and Roa and Lommy and Cailin) deserve to eat this village. For my part, it's clear what the best choice is, so for better or worse:

++ CAILIN

[the phantom]

Wait - evil team is in trouble? Since when? I thought we were the ones in trouble... What do you mean by evil team being in trouble?
They only have four WWs, and it is a fact that the Good Guys can cut them down to three.

Would it make any sense for yet another WW to step forward so that the WWs could be cut down to 2 overnight?
Speaking of that, phantom, will you please answer that?
Answer what? *scratches head*

[Rikae]

Wait - evil team is in trouble? Since when? I thought we were the ones in trouble... What do you mean by evil team being in trouble?

He says that because he knows perfectly well the evil team is in trouble, and he just gambled and lost. However, if I told you everything before toMorrow, I would be helping the EW by doing so.

[Diamond18]

Okay, phantom, why not lynch Rikae? If she's lying like you claim, she's a ww. So it shouldn't matter to you whether we lynch one "known wolf" (Rikae) or another (Cailín). So why are you so adamant on lynching Cailín, not Rikae?


Oh wow. You are so a wolf.

Rikae could be (and probably is) the Evil Wizard. Lynching her results in no wolf death at all, in this case. The GW promised Phantom a cool death scene if he Hunted Cailin, which sounds an awful lot like she's a wolf.

But then, I'm betting you know that already.

[the phantom]

Okay, phantom, why not lynch Rikae? If she's lying like you claim, she's a ww. So it shouldn't matter to you whether we lynch one "known wolf" (Rikae) or another (Cailín). So why are you so adamant on lynching Cailín, not Rikae?
Because I know what Cailin is, not Rikae.

It is technically possible that Rikae is the EW, in which case the lynch of Rikae would be absolutely worthless.

We have a chance to limit the WWs to one kill. We need to do it.

Leave Rikae to me and the GW.

. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=558330&postcount=828)

[Thinlómien]

If you are innocent, by all believe me that Rikae is lying. If not, then it is clear what you are, and that you are trying to do what I just said.I do think Rikae is lying but I cannot be sure. It's easy for you to say if you're indeed innocent and she's framing you. I have absolutely no way of knowing for certain.

Besides, I tend to say my impressions/opinions aloud whether they're consistent or not. I just write what I think at the moment when I'm writing. (You can see this from my posts where I first state I think something and in the next paragraph I contradict it. Sheesh, I guess that's the famous Lommy-flip-flopping. :rolleyes: :D)


edit: xed with everything since my last post

[Thinlómien]

What does it matter if we leave Cailín-wolf or Rikae-wolf to be scried to innocent next Night? We still can't get a new ranger... :rolleyes: Honestly, your logic is faulty...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Answer what? *scratches head*
I told you to look it up in Lal's post, my slightly slower business partner ;)
But here it is in full - from my post once upon a time:

So you know she (Cailín) is a WW? Or did the GW just tell you to Hunt her, well, that does not necessarily mean she is a WW, you know what I mean? Maybe it's just a suspect for a Wolf. With Rikae then, we would be sure (or surer) there is some sinister idea behind all of that, whatever she is. But I agree that we should agree on something. And right now... right now if you say Cailín, I may as well be persuaded to do so, but... what do the others think.

Anyway, it does not seem to be too much of a question, as "reactionary powers" have started to urge for lynching Rikae, and others have already started voting Cailín... but still you could answer.

[the phantom]

I do think Rikae is lying but I cannot be sure.
Well, then if you think she is, by Eru help me strike a blow against her side!
So you know she (Cailín) is a WW? Or did the GW just tell you to Hunt her, well, that does not necessarily mean she is a WW, you know what I mean?
Oh, sorry.

Yes, yes, I know she is a WW. I did lots of chatting with the GW, so I knew exactly what he was telling me. As a matter of fact he even made a comment shortly before daybreak asking my thoughts on who the "other three" could be.

Cailin's a WW.

. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=558330&postcount=828)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I do think Rikae is lying but I cannot be sure. It's easy for you to say if you're indeed innocent and she's framing you. I have absolutely no way of knowing for certain.

Besides, I tend to say my impressions/opinions aloud whether they're consistent or not. I just write what I think at the moment when I'm writing. (You can see this from my posts where I first state I think something and in the next paragraph I contradict it. Sheesh, I guess that's the famous Lommy-flip-flopping. :rolleyes: :D)

Ah. You are probably trying to be nice, and to seem reasonable, and to seem "typical" (flip-flopping...) but... Anyway. Today's question is about Rikae or Cailín now, clearly enough, and heck, if Cailín is not what phantom says - if he really knows she's a Wolf - then we still have a nice row of pre-ordined lynches or whatever for the upcoming days.

I also just thought of a slightly meta-game reason for Cailín being a wolf. I am not sure whether to say it, since it is really somewhat metagame. Although, not that much.

[Brinniel]

Yeesh...so this is what happens while I'm gone? :eek: Boy, this is really giving me a headache...

First off, there's just no way that Rikae could be the GW...I just can't believe that. As others said, why would she reveal now...plus, all she's doing is causing confusion so if she were the GW, I would have to say she's not a very good one. I'm surprised people were actually believing her at first, but I'm glad to see that things have since changed.

Now what does this mean? She could either be the EW or a wolf. I'm thinking it's more likely she's a wolf ordered by the EW to act suicidal or impersonate the GW. But I'm not certain. And is Legate actually evil or innocent? Could be either.

If we lynched Legate and he was a wolf, we still won't immediately know Rikae's identity, but the Night would answer that. Surely, the GW would scry her if lying...if the EW, the identity is known and if a wolf, she'll be turned back to ordo and she could tell all the next Day...unless the wolves kill her. If Rikae's, a wizard whether good or bad, there will be a duel toMorrow. The problem with lynching Legate is the possiblity that he is innocent. And also, we wouldn't be getting a new ranger toNight.

If we lynch Rikae, two things could happen. She could die and be revealed as a wolf. Or she could not die and will be a known wizard...but we won't know which side. Of course the opposing wizard will know and won't have to worry about scrying for a wizard at Night...the duel will happen Day 4 and we'll know the truth. The only problem I see here is that if she is a wizard, then we don't kill a wolf tonight which means probably by the time the duel occurs there'll be five wolves. Eek.

And then there's this whole thing with phantom. I don't know if he's telling the truth. He could be lying as a wolf or EW, or he could be an ordo lying trying to fool the wolves. He's advocating the lynching of Cailin, but if a true hunter he should in fact let himself get lynched. Then if he is the hunter he'll be taking down a possible Cailin-wolf with him. Because if he is telling the truth, then the wizard will scry him toNight, then the wolves will probably kill him anyway (not taking other events into account). If phantom is innocent, he'll probably die toNight. And if not, he's either a wolf already or will be turned into one (unless he's actually the EW). Problems: tp could be just an ordo then we simply lynched an innocent. Or he's the hunter, but wrong about Cailin, then two innocents are dead.

Lynching candidates: Rikae, Legate, phantom

Hmm...this is going to be a tough decision. At least I've got two more hours.

Oh, and I know I said I would look at Lommy and I still want to, but I was totally not expecting this all to happen. Any analysis of her may have to wait until toMorrow as I'm confuzzled enough as it is.

Btw, I'm x-posting with a ton of people but I just don't care to catch up any more before submitting this post...

[Diamond18]

What does it matter if we leave Cailín-wolf or Rikae-wolf to be scried to innocent next Night? We still can't get a new ranger... :rolleyes: Honestly, your logic is faulty...

Why are you intent on ignoring the (very likely) possibility that Rikae is the Evil Wizard?

You're either a wolf or the EW yourself, Lom-dear, and every post you are making is reinforcing that notion.

In fact I'm starting to think it's a good idea to lynch Cailin, scry you, and be down two wolves. There'd still be no Ranger, but being down two wolves would be a major plus as the two remaining wolves and the (possible) new wolf would not be able to kill more than one person during the night.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Cailin's a WW.
Really? 100%? No way you could have misunderstood that?

Then I think I am going to go for it...

[Gwathagor]

Yes, yes, I know she is a WW. I did lots of chatting with the GW, so I knew exactly what he was telling me. As a matter of fact he even made a comment shortly before daybreak asking my thoughts on who the "other three" could be.

"He"?

[the phantom]

Brin, the idea that the EW will scry me tonight and then have the WWs kill me isn't really all that bad. If it goes down like that the EW will be wasting most of his nightly power focusing on me, thus allowing the GW to scry to turn a WW or create a new Ranger.

It would really be a shame to allow the EW to do whatever he wishes with his nightly scry and kills. By leaving me alive we force his hand. That is why I am not advocating lynching me.

But despite that....

If you believe me then you need to lynch Cailin.

If you believe Rikae, then, though it would be a victory for the EW, you might as well just lynch me.

It's down to that.

There is NO WAY Rikae or Legate should be on your lynch list.

. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=558330&postcount=828)

[Diamond18]

Nilp for Rikae
Lhuna for Sally
Izzy for Di
Rikae for Rikae
morm for Lommy
Diamond for Cailin

Rikae 2
Sally 1
Di 1
Lommy 1
Cailin 1

A vote for Cailin is a vote for good.

A vote for anyone else is a vote for evil.

[the phantom]

"He"?
Yes, it takes too long to do he/she himself/herself all the time, so I've generally been calling the EW or GW by their title or "he".

Don't read into it.

[the phantom]

Really? 100%? No way you could have misunderstood that?
No, I did not misunderstand.

Promise.

[Rikae]

Go ahead and lynch Cailin if you trust tp over me.
I already have the enemy where I want them.

[the phantom]

Go ahead and lynch Cailin if you trust tp over me.
I already have the enemy where I want them.
Did you hear that?

Even Rikae is saying to do it.

Lynch Cailin.

[Diamond18]

It would be cool if Spivak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun) Gender Neutral nouns could catch on in WW.

No reading stuff into what anyone says regarding this.

[the phantom]

I already have the enemy where I want them.
"The enemy", eh? I notice you didn't say "The Werewolves". ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Heck, all right. If it is a devious master plan, then it is a devious master plan, and all phantoms and their henchmen deserve to be lynched for a long time to come. But I believe him, and so be it.

++Cailín

Let's follow the example, and the truth will show itself.

[Diamond18]

Go ahead and lynch Cailin if you trust tp over me.
I already have the enemy where I want them.

Wow. Telling your wolves to go ahead and sacrifice her, then? You already know what you want?

[Lalaith]

why not lynch Rikae? If she's lying like you claim, she's a ww. So it shouldn't matter to you whether we lynch one "known wolf" (Rikae) or another (Cailín). So why are you so adamant on lynching Cailín, not Rikae?



Again, Lommy, you're off. If she's lying she's a wolf...or the EW. Why didn't you get that? You would, usually, you know...

[the phantom]

Heck, all right. If it is a devious master plan, then it is a devious master plan, and all phantoms and their henchmen deserve to be lynched for a long time to come.
Ha ha ha!

Yes, I hereby swear that if I am lying to you, you all have permission to lynch me on Day 1 of every village from here on out! :D

[Gwathagor]

However, if I told you everything before toMorrow, I would be helping the EW by doing so.

I think you had better anyway, because you haven't given me any actual reason to believe you. I'm going to need that explanation which you are so loath to give. What do you mean you have the enemy where you want them? Why did you reveal toDay?

[Cailín]

Hi everyone. I am going to require your attention for a moment.

This is important.

I am baffled, flattered (a little) and frustrated (a bit more) by the whole proceeding. I feel like a total unknowing pawn in this game; and I am being toyed with. I cannot stress enough how I am - much to my dismay, and to be honest, disappointment - ordinary, and innocent.

I'm a bit freaked out by what's happened here. I knew the case against me was totally irrational from the start and feel like this has all been planned and staged for a long time. Diamond started going after me from the start of the second Day (with no reasoning whatsoever). I have come up with several theories, yet none seems to fit.

The phantom is lying. Rikae? I am not sure. Are they even enemies?

[A Little Green]

I can't trust your word on this, phantom. The reason is that according your theory, Rikae is the EW (that's why she is to be left to you and the GW, and that's why it isn't the same whether we lynch Rikae or Cailín), but you still haven't explained why would an EW-Rikae reveal as a GW. I think that's the biggest flaw in your claim, or else it's something very obvious for everyone else and I just can't see it.

In any case I think we can shut out the possibility of tp being an ordo, unless he had decided to turn cobbler or else just tries to confuse the village as much as possible just for the fun of it.

I don't trust Rikae. Her claim was, like some said, very oddly placed and makes no sense. On the other hand, I'm not comfortable with phantom, either. So, quite frankly, I'm at a loss with what to do.

Seriously, this game is making me nuts.


EDIT: x-ed since phantom's 863

[Brinniel]

Brin, the idea that the EW will scry me tonight and then have the WWs kill me isn't really all that bad. If it goes down like that the EW will be wasting most of his nightly power focusing on me, thus allowing the GW to scry to turn a WW or create a new Ranger.

It would really be a shame to allow the EW to do whatever he wishes with his nightly scry and kills. By leaving me alive we force his hand. That is why I am not advocating lynching me.

If you believe me then you need to lynch Cailin.

If you believe Rikae, then, though it would be a victory for the EW, you might as well just lynch me.

It's down to that.

There is NO WAY Rikae or Legate should be on your lynch list.
Okay, that's a good point. I like the idea of the EW wasting the Night taking care of you...that is, if you really are what you say you are.

Reading Legate's newer posts, he seems more innocentish to me and I agree on some things he says about Lommy that makes me worry about her (I just hope I'm not being mislead as he's really good at doing that). I disagree with the idea that there's "no way" Rikae should be on my list...I still worry about her.

The thing I'd worry about lynching phantom anyway, is the risk of lynching two innocents at once if he's wrong about Cailin. But if he's really the hunter, then he wouldn't be saying he's 100% sure about her unless he really was. If Cailin got lynched and was innocent, tp would surely be either a wolf or the EW. But I'm still split between whether tp is being honest or not. For all we know, he and Rikae could both be evil.

I'm changing my lynch candidates slightly: Rikae, Cailin, phantom

X-posting with many more...

[Gwathagor]

Here's a thought. If tp is so sure about Cailin, why hasn't he voted her yet?

[the phantom]

Hehe. Phantom, if you're ever in Crete, call me and remind me I owe you a hug for keeping me amused. Silly guy.
Ha ha! Just saw this. No, no, you should come up here. Much more to do. :p
I think you had better anyway, because you haven't given me any actual reason to believe you.
Don't bother, Gwath. I've already explained that there is no way my move makes sense as a Baddie. Trust me on this.
I'm a bit freaked out by what's happened here. I knew the case against me was totally irrational from the start and feel like this has all been planned and staged for a long time.
Wrong. Unless by "long time" you mean last night. I knew nothing till then, but since the, yes, I have been planning an attack on you.

[the phantom]

Here's a thought. If tp is so sure about Cailin, why hasn't he voted her yet?
Because, as I've said before, I always hold my vote just in case.

I suppose partly because I'm always afraid the village will do something stupid that my vote could have fixed had I held it.

[the phantom]

For all we know, he and Rikae could both be evil.
If that's the case, then the evil team is darn suicidal.

[Gwathagor]

Trust me on this.

There are two chances of that: fat and slim. ;)

[the phantom]

There are two chances of that: fat and slim.
Why?

Explain to me exactly how Phantom=Bad works. How can you possibly explain the rationality of my reveal if I am in fact lying?

Sorry, but logic is firmly on my side here. You need to go with me- just this once. ;)

[Diamond18]

Nilp for Rikae
Lhuna for Sally
Izzy for Di
Rikae for Rikae
morm for Lommy
Diamond for Cailin
Legate for Cailin

Rikae 2
Cailin 2
Sally 1
Di 1
Lommy 1

I'd say more, but then, I've said it all before. :rolleyes:

[Durelin]

Wth, people, wth?

I've got more reading to do. Unless that would only confuse me more.

There are so many strings being pulled right now it's insane.

[Brinniel]

I'm thinking the best option at this point is to lynch phantom. If he's the hunter, then he'll take a wolf down with him because as he said, he's 100% sure about Cailin. If he's a wolf, then we've lynched a wolf. If he's the EW, he'll be found out. While I liked the idea of the wolves taking care of him during the Night, that's only based on the assumption that phantom is truthful...and I think it may be to risky to trust him.

As for Rikae...if she's lying (as I think she is), then we'll leave her to the GW and we'll know the truth about her by toMorrow.

If that's the case, then the evil team is darn suicidal.
Perhaps...but if you manage to fool the entire village, then acting suicidal could really be worked towards the evil team's advantage..

[mormegil]

*sigh* I take a short nap and come back to 3 or 4 additional pages:eek:. If I may sumarise what I have gathered in my quick review. Rikae claims to be the GW and the phantom rejects that claim based upon that fact that he is the hunter and has communicated with the GW. Personally, I don't see any reason why the GW would reveal him/herself and therefore I am disinclined to beleive Rikae. Additionally, the vibe I have gotten from Rikae is that of a baddie gloating over her power, I think she felt a bit over-confident. This is really a break through, though I wouldn't doubt it if she were merely a wolf trying to distract us. Either way it's up the the GW what he wants to do about this information.

[the phantom]

Brin, for Pete's sake, wait!

[Brinniel]

How can you possibly explain the rationality of my reveal if I am in fact lying?

Sorry, but logic is firmly on my side here. You need to go with me- just this once.
Obviously to confuse the village. Instead of just focusing on Rikae, you threw a whole other factor and diversion into the picture.

This comment makes me doubt you even more.

[Lalaith]

I'm thinking the best option at this point is to lynch phantom

Brinn, I was thinking that too...but then I thought, if he's telling the truth, that leaves our GW with just one team member. And the EW currently has four.
Not good. I think one way or another, there will be a challenge tomorrow. And I'd rather have our GW leave us with a full team. Wouldn't you?

[Thinlómien]

Brinn, stop confusing me by bringing yet another lynch candidate. I can't just ignore your suggestion either, it sounds tempting, but...but...

Phantom - is it so difficult to understnad that some are not ready to trust Rikae yet not ready to trust you either? I don't want to trust either of you. It's not a choice like "option a: I trust phantom and don't trust Rikae" and "option b: I trust Rikae and I don't trust phantom"! It's an individual decision each time, first question "do I trust Rikae?" and second question "do I trust phantom?". And I happened to answer "no" to both.


edit: xed with everybody after Brinn's #887

[Brinniel]

Brin, for Pete's sake, wait!
Wait for what? To vote for you?

Well, if you are actually a wolf of course you would want me to wait.

I'm not voting just yet, so you have time to convince me otherwise. But it seems the more you speak, the less I believe you...

[Thinlómien]

Oh, and as for Rikae being the EW, I'm ignoring the possibility because I just don't believe that. Why on earth would the EW do something like she did? It's almost as absurd as the GW acting that way...


edit: xed with Brinn

[Brinniel]

Brinn, I was thinking that too...but then I thought, if he's telling the truth, that leaves our GW with just one team member. And the EW currently has four.
Not good. I think one way or another, there will be a challenge tomorrow. And I'd rather have our GW leave us with a full team. Wouldn't you?
But if he's truthful and we don't lynch him, he'll probably be killed during the Night anyways...so either way we'd still be down a hunter.

[the phantom]

but if you manage to fool the entire village, then acting suicidal could really be worked towards the evil team's advantage..
How the heck am I supposed to fool the "entire village"?!

If I'm lying then it is impossible for me to fool the entire village, because the GW and real Hunter will know good and well that I'm lying!!

If I'm wrong, the Rikae is right, yes?

And if Rikae is right, the Legate is a WW, yes?

And so what in the name of Arda was I trying to accomplish when I revealed?!

All that it does is let the GW know the identity of yet another WW, which leaves open the possibility of losing a WW both today and tonight! That's absolutely a stupid thing to do! What is gained that balances out such a loss?

It makes no logical sense.

Stop trying to FEEL this thing out! THINK rationally- is there a likely benefit that will offset the guaranteed cost of such a move for a WW at this point in the game?

Answer- no.

Everyone keeps saying I want to "confuse the village". How is a few hours of confusion worth the guaranteed loss of a WW?

I'm sorry, but logic is firmly on my side. If you can't see it then you haven't slowed down enough to think everything through.

Vote Cailin.

Yeesh. We might as well hand this game to the EW. :rolleyes:

[Durelin]

Sorry, but logic is firmly on my side here.

Well, really it looks more to me like all the logic is against Rikae, but not necessarily on your side.

I'm thinking the best option at this point is to lynch phantom. If he's the hunter, then he'll take a wolf down with him because as he said, he's 100% sure about Cailin.

Okayyy...but if he really is the hunter and we take care of him now, the Wolves won't have to deal with him toNight, which means it's an open one or two kills for them.

Lommy's desire to trust Rikae seems...crazy.

though I wouldn't doubt it if she (Rikae) were merely a wolf trying to distract us.

This is another thing to consider. In my skim-over it looks like people have talked a lot about how it doesn't make sense for the GW to reveal themselves, but does it make any more sense for the EW to reveal themselves at this point? I guess maybe if they are confident that their wolves can finish things off, which makes me wonder if we're completely on the wrong track. Whatever.

The way Rikae "came out" as more and more pressure was being placed on Cailin is very interesting, though.

Bleh, I need to step back for a moment.

So, I haven't made it into any more sigs? You guys couldn't make this an easy decision for me, could you? :p

Edit: Crossed with a bunch, duh.

[Thinlómien]

If I'm wrong, the Rikae is right, yes?Not necessarily. But that would be insane...


edit: xed with Dury

[the phantom]

Phantom - is it so difficult to understnad that some are not ready to trust Rikae yet not ready to trust you either? I don't want to trust either of you. It's not a choice like "option a: I trust phantom and don't trust Rikae" and "option b: I trust Rikae and I don't trust phantom"! It's an individual decision each time, first question "do I trust Rikae?" and second question "do I trust phantom?". And I happened to answer "no" to both.
Sorry, but it is either/or.

One of us is lying.

Does it make sense that it would be me, who had no logical reason to reveal at this stage in the game if a Baddie?
Brinn, I was thinking that too...but then I thought, if he's telling the truth, that leaves our GW with just one team member. And the EW currently has four.
Not good. I think one way or another, there will be a challenge tomorrow. And I'd rather have our GW leave us with a full team. Wouldn't you?
Thank you!

If you lynch me, you're essentially doing the EWs dirty work for him. Way to go.

[Lalaith]

But if he's truthful and we don't lynch him, he'll probably be killed during the Night anyways...so either way we'd still be down a hunter

But if he's telling the truth and we kill Cailin, that will be one wolf down already, and if the wolves then kill him during the night I think he'll probably take down a wolf with him, because frankly after today's mayhem we've got some fairly good suspects here, on one side or the other.

[Rikae]

tp apparently realized I knew another wolf's identity. Well, he was right, but it wasn't him. :p

Really, this worked out beautifully.

[Eönwë]

tp, what's wroing with Cailin?:


Ah, excellent. Hey Gwath- we have a member recruited for our Lynch Cailin Club! :)

Legate, my good friend and business partner, what do you think? Interested in joining?

Come on Izzy. Vote Cailin please. *gives puppy dog eyes*

That's precisely why we should lynch Cailin rather than me. ;)

Well oviuosly she would do a comeback.
Please everyone, vote for the phantom. I really, really think he's suspicious. Incidentally, be my friend. :rolleyes:

I think one of them is (now, if not since the beginning), a werewolf.
But the thing is we don't know who yet.

[the phantom]

But if he's telling the truth and we kill Cailin, that will be one wolf down already, and if the wolves then kill him during the night I think he'll probably take down a wolf with him, because frankly after today's mayhem we've got some fairly good suspects here, on one side or the other.
Yes! Ten points for Lal.

And if the EW scries me to avoid my kill, that means he can't make another WW during the night! Yet another victory!!

[Brinniel]

One of us is lying.
Maybe just one. Or maybe both.

But if he's telling the truth and we kill Cailin, that will be one wolf down already, and if the wolves then kill him during the night I think he'll probably take down a wolf with him, because frankly after today's mayhem we've got some fairly good suspects here, on one side or the other.
He won't take another wolf down because surely the EW will scry him first making him an ordo. Don't get me wrong...I did hesitate for a moment because if tp is honest it be nice to simply let the wolves waste their time taking care of him. But again, that's assuming he's honest. And I'm beginning to doubt that more and more.

[Cailín]

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Broken record, anyone?

Should we not be focusing on someone else? Do you know how many people are flying under the radar right now? I'm talking Mormegil here. That guy is dodgy.

Seriously, phantom, your case against me is about as good as my case against Mormegil. Just because you keep saying logic is on your side, it does not make it so.

[Thinlómien]

Okay, phantom. I may have to admit that I trust you more than I trust Rikae. (Because it would indeed quite weird of you to do what you're doing if you were a baddie, you've demonstrated that point quite convincingly.)

But that's not much and I do not trust you. I cannot see all ends. You could still be a weirdo bluffing baddie and as it's you of all the people here, I'm double-cautious.

See, as I can't completely choose between the two of you, and because I'm keeping in mind the (however crazy) possibility that you could both be lying, I'd rather lynch Rikae just to be on the safe side, even if there's a minimal risk that she's the EW and not a wolf and thus we can't lynch a wolf if we lynch her.

Can you understand my point of view?


edit: xed with everything since tp's 899

[Diamond18]

*sigh*

I didn't want to do this, but... I think that the confusion here is not good for the Good team, and since Rikae has seemingly got what she wanted, I may as well let the thick villagers in on it.

Rikae's not the Good Wizard. I am.

This is possibly surprising to some of you, considering my devil may care attitude, questions and missteps about the rules, seemingly "forgetting" that Day 1 had come till late in the Day. But I was trying to act like the least possible Wizard, to lessen suspicion of me. Pretending to be someone who hasn't paid close attention to "hard core" stuff, etc. Acting silly and stupid seemed the best way.

My role in the village is a joke on the fact that I do not, in real life, currently have a job.

Diamond + No Job + Internet At Home = All the Time in the World

I told Nogrod this. Now I'm telling you.

So, that's various reasons why you should believe me when I say that I am the Good Wizard.

Keep in mind that there are 5 evil people in this village. Rikae and Cailin are the ones I know about for sure.

Rikae's false reveal today caused me to post far more and far more seriously than I was intending. I'll bet you that she's gloating about this.

Well, I'll see you tomorrow, Mommy. ;)

In the meantime, DON'T lynch my Hunter!

The Phantom is of far more use to me at Night.

Cailin is a Wolf, lynch her and be done with it.

This is all.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Really, people, and given Rikae's stance towards tp, it does not seem likely that the two of them are together in any union. That Rikae is evil is clear (at least to me 100%, which I am very grateful of). So I say we listen to the phantom and vote for Cailín. For those who are indecisive, just say to yourselves: "Let's give it a shot, we will know for certain after that happens," and then jump into the water. I believe this being the best way now.

[Brinniel]

Rikae's not the Good Wizard. I am.
GAHH! *throws self against wall*

I don't know what to believe anymore. I just don't.

[Kath]

Oh ... flibble. Well, for my part I'm for trusting phantom here and lynching Cailin. Whoever it was that set out the list of possible outcomes for that, well, it pretty much agreed with what was going on in my head. In addition, the timing and nature of Rikae's revelation just made it seem suspicious even before I got as far as phantom's counter revelation. In addition, I thought I saw a clue from a possible GW earlier and that seemed to chime with what phantom said.

So, because I am unlikely to be here at the deadline:

++CAILIN

[the phantom]

tp apparently realized I knew another wolf's identity. Well, he was right, but it wasn't him.
Ah, so you are the EW, eh? You admit that you know the identities of yet other WWs, and that I'm not one of them.

Eonwe- have you been keeping up? Did you read the part where I'm the Hunter, and that the GW told me Cailin was a WW?
Maybe just one. Or maybe both.
Oh, please. That would be just plain stupid. If that was the case, then all we basically did was show up and say "Both of us are WWs!" to the GW.
He won't take another wolf down because surely the EW will scry him first making him an ordo.
That's exactly WHAT WE WANT!!

If the EW scries me then he can't make another WW!!
Seriously, phantom, your case against me is about as good as my case against Mormegil.
I don't need a case. The GW told me who you were. My "case" earlier today was just a cover for trying to get you lynched without revealing myself.

[Thinlómien]

Alright. I trust phantom because I trust Di. If they were both baddies this would be just horrible. And on top of that Cailín's last post, being so unrelated to everything, clearly proves that she's a wolf.

But the question remains, why to lynch Cailín and not Rikae if they're both wolves? :p:D;)


edit: xed with everything since Di's revelation... and now I'm letting Greenie come here

[Lalaith]

Should we not be focusing on someone else?

Ok Cailin, that does it. That attempt at a diversion has just made up my mind for me - you have *got* to be a wolf. Why in the name of Arda should we start confusing ourselves even further by focusing on other people, we need to sort out this problem toDay, and then sift through the evidence tomorrow.

++CAILIN

It's my belief that the aim of toDay was to create confusion, which is a EW not a GW thing to do. Cailin's just done that - tried to create more confusion. The GW wants to unify the village. Rikae wouldn't have revealed and then run away if she were a good wizard with the village's best interests at heart.

If Cailin is guilty, then Rikae is bad. So, I think, are Lommy and Roa. Who is the baddest of them all, I don't know, but we can sort all that out tomorrow.
If phantom turns out to be the baddie, after all, then GW Rikae or whoever else she is shielding, can sort that out toNight.

[Celuien]

*sigh*

I didn't want to do this, but... I think that the confusion here is not good for the Good team, and since Rikae has seemingly got what she wanted, I may as well let the thick villagers in on it.

Rikae's not the Good Wizard. I am.

*sigh*

And another reveal. :( I was sort of afraid of that when you were talking about scrying strategy to reduce wolf numbers earlier...


Cailin is a Wolf, lynch her and be done with it.

This is all.
Ok.

++ Cailín

[Kath]

Ah! Di just revealed! Well, she's who I thought I'd seen the clue from earlier so at least that all works. Hmm, I do have a niggling feeling that this could be the most blinding bluff ever played, especially with Di and phantom masterminding it, but I decided to trust them and I'll stick by that decision.

[Durelin]

Rikae's not the Good Wizard. I am.

Aw dang, I thought this might be coming after wondering for a moment why you were as 100% sure as phantom...sorry, Di. :(

Now, Di's reveal makes sense.

++Cailin

Now you're really my hero. ;)

Edit: Crossed with everyone after Legate.

[Gwathagor]

tp, what's wroing with Cailin?

Read the really long post by me. The REALLY long one. Also, tp says that GW told him that Cailin is a wolf.

The single strongest point in tp's favor is that it wouldn't make sense for Rikae, if she were the GW, to reveal herself right now. So she likely isn't the GW.

[Cailín]

*chants* We got the Good Wizard, we got the Good Wizard.

:p

[Brinniel]

But the question remains, why to lynch Cailín and not Rikae if they're both wolves?
Because Rikae could be the EW.

I'm more inclined to trust Di as well. But before I take action I need to think, as much as my brain already hurts. I just don't want to fall into a trap.

[Brinniel]

*chants* We got the Good Wizard, we got the Good Wizard.


Well, that does it.

++Cailin

[Isabellkya]

o.O

Sheeesh, I continue reading from when I posted last, Rikae claims to be the GW, and here I see a quote of Di doing the same.. with something about phantom being a wolf?

[Diamond18]

Nilp for Rikae
Lhuna for Sally
Izzy for Di
Rikae for Rikae
morm for Lommy
Diamond for Cailin
Legate for Cailin
Kath for Cailin
Lalaith for Cailin
Celuien for Cailin
Durelin for Cailin
Brinn for Cailin

Cailin 7
Rikae 2
Sally 1
Di 1
Lommy 1

[Brinniel]

Sheeesh, I continue reading from when I posted last, Rikae claims to be the GW, and here I see a quote of Di doing the same.. with something about phantom being a wolf?
Di's the GW and tp's her hunter. Cailin and Rikae are indeed evil as Cailin just revealed her more sinister self.

[Gwathagor]

Well, I'll be...



Rikae's not the Good Wizard. I am.



Ha ha ha ha ha! Madness!

++++++++++++++++++CAILIN

Die die die die die!

[the phantom]

Oh.... my.... God!

That was freakin amazing, Di!

I was about to post and say that I was completely confused, but after Cailin's little comment proving her guilt....

Was that what you were trying to accomplish, Di?

[Rikae]

Rikae's not the Good Wizard. I am.


You're right - I'm not the GW. I was just having a bit of fun. :p

That doesn't mean you are, though. The apple doesn't fall very far from the tree....

[Isabellkya]

I did see someone, I believe you Brin quote Cailin in something to the effect of "We got the GW, We got the GW;" as I was scrolling down to post.


From the few things I've caught - it almost seems to be a little too neat; however I'm sure reading the rest of the pages will make it messy.

Even though it may all be true, I don't think it bodes well for the rest of the village.


X'd with Rikae.

[Diamond18]

Di's the GW and tp's her hunter. Cailin and Rikae are indeed evil as Cailin just revealed her more sinister self.

Cailin. Eomer. They grow more alike every day.

I'm glad that the Village is united, now. A little disappointed I had to reveal. But, a Wizard's got to do what a Wizard's got to do. The confusion was becoming maddening.

I was about to post and say that I was completely confused, but after Cailin's little comment proving her guilt....

Was that what you were trying to accomplish, Di?

Actually that was a bonus. I thought she might still deny it.

At any rate, it certainly proves the theory that Rikae's aim in all this was flush me out. And since her smug comment earlier indicated she had, I figured the village should be let in on it as well. This way I at least spare you for a kill/scry tonight, instead of having you die today.

[Gwathagor]

Well, I reckon it's time for me to stop worrying about how I'm going to vote and go watch today's Doctor Who episode.

I'm sorry you had to reveal, Diamond18. Looks like it did the trick though and cleared things up.

[satansaloser2005]

++Cailin



Like I said, there was NO way Rikae was telling the truth. Well, we lose our lovely Di tomorrow in Wizard duel most likely, but we can get a lot from toDay. People who were trying to make Rikae's nonsense plausible for instance. Hmmmm....who would that be? *cough* Lommie, Lallie, Roa, etc. *cough* Who said that?



Oh, and Legate, I've believed you this whole time, sweetheart. Mwah!



Sorry, I just love it when I'm right. Obviously, Phantom kind of started it all but I've thought they were both evil all game. Yay!


Posting now....probably x'd. (last post is Gwath's post to Di)

[Lalaith]

today's Doctor Who episode.

Oh you are in for such a treat. Sorry, off task, but I had to say that.

[Thinlómien]

Diamond, I have a request for you, please hear me out. I know you suspect me. I know you want to scry me and make one wolf swap sides. PLEASE DO NOT SCRY ME. Seer dream me, lynch me toMorrow, whatever - I don't care. But do not scry me. In that case you only get a ranger everybody guesses you've scried ie made known or at least very easily guessable innocent and the wolves kill your ranger the Night after that. De-gift a real wolf, search for the evil wizard or make a useful ranger, whatever you wish, but do not waste your scry on making a totally useless ranger out of me.


edit: xed with sally and Lalaith

[Cailín]

++ Mormegil

Anyone for a late bandwagon?

[Thinlómien]

++ Cailín


edit: xed with the evil her(him?)self and added bolding

[satansaloser2005]

This is ridiculous.

Believe Phantom or not, he makes more sense than Rikae's "Let's kill Legate, I know for sure he's a wolf. Oh yeah, and I Nilp myself." (With love, Father dear) If you are POSITIVE he's a wolf, you kill him! After that last bit about her seer dreaming my sweet Legate, I'm even less likely to believe her. *bells going off! bells going off!*






Sorry to be rude, but why didn't anyone see/respond to this. I thought it made the situation obvious. Then again, I have made the same mistake (granted, not with a confirmed wolf, but still....) so yeah. Bah. We've got her anyway.


Phantom, if/when you die toNight, make sure to take a fuzzy wuzzy with you, kthnxbye. Love ya cousin!

[Thinlómien]

Oh, you can even add phantom killing me to the list of what to do rather than scry me, but I can't say I'd really recommend making him kill an ordinary villager, especially if the villager in question is my dear self... :rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

++ Mormegil

Anyone for a late bandwagon?



No! No more random "Hey, let's accuse random people" bandwagons from you, evil Auntie (Uncle?) of mine!

Lhuna, Dure (notice the absence of the "I", by the way love), I'm sorry your mum's a wolfiekins. It's always frustrating when a loved one isn't who you think they are *furtive glance at Lommy Mommy, just in case*

[Diamond18]

Diamond, I have a request for you, please hear me out. I know you suspect me. I know you want to scry me and make one wolf swap sides. PLEASE DO NOT SCRY ME. Seer dream me, lynch me toMorrow, whatever - I don't care. But do not scry me. In that case you only get a ranger everybody guesses you've scried ie made known or at least very easily guessable innocent and the wolves kill your ranger the Night after that. De-gift a real wolf, search for the evil wizard or make a useful ranger, whatever you wish, but do not waste your scry on making a totally useless ranger out of me.


I'll take it under advisement, but I'll not making any statements about what's going down tonight. Obviously. ;) Too much has been said already.

[the phantom]

Phantom, if/when you die toNight, make sure to take a fuzzy wuzzy with you
If the EW allows me to use my gift then I will certainly try my best.

Well, I might as well-

+ + Cailin

[satansaloser2005]

I'll take it under advisement, but I'll not making any statements about what's going down tonight. Obviously. ;) Too much has been said already.



By the way, spoiled brat moment. Why the heck didn't you scry me, your favorite cousin? *shifty eyes* Come ON, Di, I want to enjoy myself here! Then again, I've been busy, so it's probably for the best. Let's just say that if I'm not scried I probably won't live out the game (all the games I've been ordo in I've died, and when I'm gifted/wolf I've survived in both those games). Yeah, that's all.

[satansaloser2005]

If the EW allows me to use my gift then I will certainly try my best.

Well, I might as well-

+ + Cailin



Crap. Didn't think of that. Well, I know you'll make the family proud either way.



P.S. I LOVE HAVING INTERNET BACK!!!!!! (At a friend's house, with AC, hence my hyper-posting, because I can....sorry if I bore you with my randomness)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, and Legate, I've believed you this whole time, sweetheart. Mwah!

*kisses sally*

Whatever's going to happen, love, I will not forget this joyful moment... and I always wanted to believe you, too...

[Thinlómien]

I'll take it under advisement, but I'll not making any statements about what's going down tonight. Obviously. Too much has been said already.Well, obviously. :D I'm glad you will think about it.

Sally, dear daughter - for heaven's sake, suspecting your poor old mother? :eek: (What kind of family I have? My husband wants to take a young mistress and my daughter suspects me of evildoing... :rolleyes: ) Anyway, if someone in our family is evil, I think it is your big sister. And I'm not just joking here - really, Kath is one of those people who make me wary yet kind of fly under my radar. I definitely want to have a look at her toMorrow.


edit: xed with everybody after Di

[Gwathagor]

Di: is there any other useful information you can give us before we lose you in toMorrow's duel? Like who's been scried by whom, which people have been gifteds and when, and all that kind of stuff that would help us interpret all the posts up to this point? That'd be splendid. Thanks again for everything.

[Thinlómien]

Di: is there any other useful information you can give us before we lose you in toMorrow's duel? Like who's been scried by whom, which people have been gifteds and when, and all that kind of stuff that would help us interpret all the posts up to this point? That'd be splendid. Thanks again for everything.If there is something she wants to share with us, she'll do it toMorrow. IF there's a duel toMorrow. Don't be hasty.

[Thinlómien]

Whatever's going to happen, love, I will not forget this joyful moment... and I always wanted to believe you, too...Since when has sally been a known innocent? Or are you just trying to fill my daughter's head with romantic nonsense, young man?

[satansaloser2005]

Well, obviously. I'm glad you will think about it.

Sally, dear daughter - for heaven's sake, suspecting your poor old mother? :eek: (What kind of family I have? My husband wants to take a young mistress and my daughter suspects me of evildoing... :rolleyes: ) Anyway, if someone in our family is evil, I think it is your big sister. And I'm not just joking here - really, Kath is one of those people who make me wary yet kind of fly under my radar. I definitely want to have a look at her toMorrow.


edit: xed with everybody after Di

Sorry Mother dear. You just look like you've been scried. I really do hope I'm wrong though. Kath looks funny to me too, but just because she's so quiet.

And Father, enough of that talk.






*blushes* Legate, everyone's staring....:Merisu:

[Diamond18]

Sorry guys. I've already given myself away, my hunter has given himself away... I really don't want to give away my seer and any potential new ranger. After tomorrow their secrecy will be very important.

[Brinniel]

Since when has sally been a known innocent?
And since when has Legate been a known innocent? Just because Rikae accused him, it doesn't mean he's an innocent for sure.

While Legate certainly does appear more innocentish than guilty, I wouldn't just forget about him. Until we know for sure, anything is possible.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Since when has sally been a known innocent? Or are you just trying to fill my daughter's head with romantic nonsense, young man?

I am not saying that, my possible-future-mother-in-law... as you see I use conditional. But this is a joyful moment. And now stop that, don't you see we want to have a beautiful time here with your daughter...

*blushes* Legate, everyone's staring....:Merisu:
Let them stare...

[A Little Green]

Okay, Di's revelation did it.

++ Cailín

Goodnight, my children (and other people's children as well... I suppose), sleep tight, be careful that the bed bugs (or werewolves) don't bite.

And yes, Sally, that is very true. Everyone is watching. What an indecent young man we have there! *glares at Legate*

:smokin:


EDIT: x-ed with Di, Brinn and Legate

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, Di's revelation did it.

++ Cailín

Goodnight, my children (and other people's children as well... I suppose), sleep tight, be careful that the bed bugs (or werewolves) don't bite.

And yes, Sally, that is very true. Everyone is watching. What an indecent young man we have there! *glares at Legate*

:smokin:


EDIT: x-ed with Di, Brinn and Legate



Good night Gramma! And you were young once, so was Grandpa Shasta. You understand. ;) *shy face anyway*

[the phantom]

Well, goodnight everyone.

Maybe see you tomorrow, but the odds say not.

*kisses Lhuna* I hope you survive, dearest.

And Di, my little Sis- you're a brave young girl. It's been a pleasure working with you. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, so you have it here. Possibly Roa, possibly Lommy, whoever else seemed funny, if I am not alive toMorrow... and with this I go to sleep; good Night.


EDIT: Heck, I know some of us are probably wolves, but even in that way, look what a beautiful scenery we have here - really a family one :D Brothers, daughters, sisters, fathers, mothers, sons, grandmothers, cousins and all other ridiculous folk behaving at least for once (somewhat, but in large enough scale) like one big family.

[satansaloser2005]

Well, goodnight everyone.

Maybe see you tomorrow, but the odds say not.

*kisses Lhuna* I hope you survive, dearest.

And Di, my little Sis- you're a brave young girl. It's been a pleasure working with you. ;)

*hugs*

I hope I see you in the morning, dear cousin. If not, I'll miss you greatly, for you've been infinitely amusing and even braver than I could ever imagine.

[Thinlómien]

And since when has Legate been a known innocent? Just because Rikae accused him, it doesn't mean he's an innocent for sure.

While Legate certainly does appear more innocentish than guilty, I wouldn't just forget about him. Until we know for sure, anything is possible.I agree with every word here.

as you see I use conditional.I do not, but let's not discuss linguistics here. :D

And now stop that, don't you see we want to have a beautiful time here with your daughter...I do see that. And unlike you short-sighted youngsters, I also see what can follow of such innocent frolicking. Once Nilp comes back from sandwich-making, we must have a serious discussion. But oh, I don't talk with him anymore, unless he apologises for planning to take a mistress. So um, forget about the talk. There will be no family talk. At all.

Anyway, there seems to be little actual game talk, so I'm going too and letting the mod log in. Good night, everyone.


edit: xed with the last three

[Roa_Aoife]

Hey, I voted for legate, don't forget!

[Brinniel]

In the chance that I get killed during the Night's events, I want to wish the best of luck to our beloved GW. And as for all the others...catch 'em wolves!

Otherwise, I hope to see everyone toMorrow.

I can't believe I actually accurately suspected two wolves from Day 1. :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I agree with every word here.

And this is just it, I don't like that - Lommy is continuously trying to support the uncertainty. It's not that everyone has to believe me, but I think you would have believed me had you been innocent. This behavior of yours overall toDay is flip-flopping, but not in the profaned sense it's used in the connection "Lommy flip-flopping", but really in the sinister sense where you are intentionally keeping behaving like you were unsure so that you can support the doubts in those who have them.

[Nogrod]

Day3 has ended.


Cailín is dead.

She is/was a wererwolf.

Narration coming in a moment... as soon as I have time to check the thread & write other than Herbert-parts. :rolleyes:


Wizards and others to whom it concerns feel free to start Nightly activities.

Others: good night, sleep tight!

[satansaloser2005]

Well, since Noggie isn't here yet, I may as well put this out there. It's silly, but it amused me.



Both nights, the wolves have killed a gifted and a person whose SN starts with a K. So if Kath doesn't die toNight, she's a wolf!lynch her! :p

If she does, then ranger be my friend, kthnxbye. (My actual name starts with a K, by the way). Kayla/Sally doesn't particularly want to die, thanks. ;)



EDIT: blast. NOW you show up. Aka x'd with my Legate and our ever-loveable NogMod. Night everybody!

[Nogrod]

Herbert hadn’t heard the man approaching. He screamed with fright when he realised the shadow blocking the narrow doorway into the pillbox.

“Cool down Herbert. It’s me. You are learning your powers my boy. But you need some practise still. Killing your mother was even a better start I could have foreseen but you still need a few lessons as I can see you’re not yet in balance with your powers. You’re now enchanted with the evil and revenge… you should learn the other side as well.”

The boy stared at the shadow his mouth opening wide as he slowly recognized him as his stepfather.

“That last one burnt you, right?” Mr. Hearst said smiling thinly to the boy. Herbert didn’t answer.

“You kind of liked Aggy, didn’t you? I heard about her from your mom. She bullied you but you admired her independence and courage to break those boundaries you never had nerve to break?”

Herbert felt forced to nod slightly in the face of a plain truth he had never thought of earlier in such terms pulled open before his eyes. He had regretted his decision to pick Aggy as soon as her figurine had started to caught fire. It had just been too late to reverse it as he couldn’t move his hand away from the light aymore. And then it had burnt him.

“It was the same thing with your mom. Do you see it? You loved her and hated her but with her your hatred was stronger and deeper. But love and hate stem from goodness and evil and they are distractions in your way to power my lad.”

Herbert wasn’t sure he actually understood Mr. Hearst’s last sentence but he nodded in a way a good boy shows his teacher that his ears are open for more and he’s trying to follow.

“There is no good and no evil in reality. They are only ideas which live only when contemplated by someone. They are ways of looking at the world. Learn that first. It is a simple idea but hard to grasp fully in all its consequences. Most of that which lives thinks they obey something they call “the laws of good and evil”, but for higher spirits they are just bedtimestories you can learn to master – and with that mastery you learn to master the minds of men. The ideas of good and evil can be used to gain power my lad. And power is all there is.” He made a pause to let his words sink and for the boy to wrestle with the meaning of them. “I will tell you more of it when you’re ready. Don’t you worry about that”.

Something was brewing in Herbert’s mind but he wasn’t quite sure what it was. He was baffled by all that Mr. Hearst had said. He seemed to notice his confusion.

“To wield that power you must become impassionate Herbert. Like this…”

Mr. Hearst took a step towards the table and grasped two figurines crushing them in his hand indifferently without even glancing whose figurines they were. He dropped the pieces to the floor and looked Herbert straight to the eye.

“You will be a great wielder of power if you just pass this test. You’ll learn to use it but you need to forget your inner goods and evils. Growing up to be a free spirit means you must first grow out from your inner morality passed on you by people around you. Hatred is a great way to start the path as it cuts you away from any influences but those of your own. But you must grow out of it in the end. Only in an impassioned reality you can wield your power to the fullest as there will then be no restraints.”

He laid his hand on Herbert’s shoulder and pressed it firmly smiling encouragingly.

“Experience that with your figurines now. Try something new. I’ll visit you soon to observe your progress.”

With that Mr. Hearst nodded and turned around. And left.

Herbert was alone in the pillbox once again. He looked back at his figurines and heard them crying at him.

There was this Janus-faced girl Caílean. It was like she was two different girls. One had always held him as her friend and he had liked him a lot. But the other Caílean had always used him to her whims and made fun of him in public. He loved her and hated her but now he tried to be as cool as he could.

He took the figurine and brought it to the fire.

It took fire slowly and started heating his fingers... but it never bursted into sudden flames like the Aggy figurine had done. It was just consumed by the flames.

Herbert held his breath. It did burn his fingers but he bit his lip. He would endure it. He would endure it...


*~*

It was to be a mad day. A day of chaos and intrigue. And the poor villagers tried to keep a cool head in the middle of all that.

Soon after the second day of open town council was opened by the elders Rikae came forwards.

"I couldn't get lynched if I wanted to. Allow me to demonstrate... A vote for Rikae to be lynched!" He looked at the stupefied villagers around her.

"It must be ironic..." Roa whispered to those near her.

"Ironic, but not at all suspicious, eh?", Rikae snapped back. "That's ok. I'm the GW, anyhow - so you really couldn't lynch me. So lynch Legate, he's evil."

From that ensued a lengthy discussion as to whether to believe her or not.

Finally the phantom came forwards with his own revealment of having been told by the GW to hunt for Cailín.

From that a lengthy discussion ensued as to whether to believe him or not.

Or whether to believe something he said but not all the other things. Or how would these relate to Rikae's revealment. Or whether they were both in cahoots in this? Or which would be the best way to proggress whether they were true or not.

"I didn't want to do this, but... I think that the confusion here is not good for the Good team, and since Rikae has seemingly got what she wanted, I may as well let the thick villagers in on it. Rikae's not the Good Wizard. I am." It was Diamond who talked.

That finally ended the lengthy discussions about whom to believe.

But it didn't meant the end of the discussion...


Suddenly the villagers realised the sun was setting fast.

"Well, how do we kill her?" asked Kath pointing at Cailín.

"How about we drown her?" Lalaith suggested.

"But where would you drown her in here? Into Mac's cider or to or your chocolate? Or maybe to my candle wax?" Celuien queried.

"I'd say we do not drown him into the cider as we've got no one to make more of it. A waste of good stuff I say..." Durelin protested.

"I have a natureal distaste for drowning anyone in chocolate. How could you eat any after that?" Brinn said shivering.

"The candle-wax it is then?" Gwath said with a curious smile.

"Yess! I'd love that!" Sally bursted.

"Let's do it then" Lommy said and nodded to Greenie to give her a hand with walking Cailín to Celuien's workshop.

"Now finally you're showing some sense!" the phantom said and went forwards getting the wax-cauldron ready.

The whole village gathered around as Celuien showed how it was done.

Cailín was drowned into the largest cauldron of liquid candle-wax.

Especially Di and Sally looked entusiastically at the procedures. "I have this wax-fetish you know?" Sally asked Di. "You do? Then you're not the only one..."

Suddenly the cauldron fell down and a great bellowing form of half-solidified wax came out from it.

"Yoooowwww---il....lll not get awwwwwaaayyyy....f-f-romm this!" the blob tried to bellow while trying to stretch itself into any possible direction the wax would let it move. Thick hair was sticking through the waxy surface as the thing rolled around in the ground.

"Someone stop it before it gets loose!" Di and Sally cried being the nearest to it.

"You should light the heart!" Celuien yelled over the general rumble.

"Here you go you beast!" Legate ran with a candleheart and sticked it to the waxy monster. "Light it! Light it!"

"With pleasure" said the phantom and brought a match from his pocket.

Cailín caught fire and burnt with a clear flame. She burnt the whole night indeed. But she was a dead werewolf. An ex-lycanthrope who had went to meet her maker. Deceased she was.


*~*

Alive:

+ A Little Green, a fortune-teller - folklorist - herb-grower - unofficial therapist, advisor and midwife, most presumably a witch, the gammer (the eccentric mother of Lommy & Mac)
+ Shastanis Althreduin, astrologer/fortune teller, gaffer (Greenie's husband, father of Lommy & Mac)
+ Isabellkaya, a gammer who loves asparagus and throwing knives (Shasta's sister)

+ Thinlómien, a bird tamer, adult (married to Nilp, Macalaure's sister)
+ Nilpaurion Felagund, a house-bound sandwich-maker, adult (married to Lommy)
+ Eönwë, Rikae's unofficial helper-person, 22 (their son)
+ Kath, tavern owner, 20 (their daughter, Brinn's life partner)
+ Satansaloser 2005, Lommy's assistant, 17 (their daughter)

+ Rikae, a lumberjack, adult (married to Macalaure, Roa's sister)
+ the phantom, sheep herder with Legate, 21 (their adopted son, Di's brother)
+ Diamond 18, dissolute, 11 (phantom's pre-teen littlesister)

+ Lhunardawen, healer's apprentice, 20 (Cailín's daughter, good twin of Durelin)
+ Durelin, poisoner 20 (Lhuna's evil twin, daughter of Cailín)



+ Roa_Aoife, school teacher, adult (mother of Legate, Brinn and Kit, wife of Nogrod, sister of Rikae)
+ Brinniel, Greenie's apprentice, 21 (Legate's sister and Kitanna's twin sister, Kath's life partner)
+ Legate of Amon Lanc, sheep herder with tp, 19 (brother of Brinn & Kit, Sally's boyfriend, Agan's ex-bf)

+ Lalaith, chocolate maker, adult (sister of Nerwen, mother of Aganzir, Volo's daughter)

+ Mormegil, adult (son of Volo, husband of Celuien, father of Gwath and McCaber)
+ Celuien, a candle maker, adult (wife of morm, mother of Gwath and McCaber)
+ Gwathagor, a highwayman, 20 (McCaber's big brother)
+ McCaber, a henchman, 18 (Gwath's little brother, dates Aganzir)


The dead:
Eomer of the Rohirrim, adult (Cailín's husband, Lhuna's and Dury's father); An innocent beheaded by the werewolves on Night1
Nogrod, the judge, adult (Roa's husband, father of Legate, Brinn and Kit); An innocent torn in two by werewolves on Night1
Nerwen, the healer, adult (sister of Lalaith, Volo's daughter); An innocent nailed to the oak-tree on Day1.
Volo, the guy who knows everything about staying alive, the gaffer (Father of Nogrod, morm, Nerwen and Lalaith); The seer mutilated and eyes pulled off on Night2.
Kitanna, a tavern wench 21 (Legate's sister and Brinn's twin sister); An innocent ripped into pieces and thrown into the well on Night2.
Aganzir, the little match girl, 15 (Lalaith's daughter, dates McCaber); A werewolf burnt alive on Day2.
Macalaure, apple farmer, adult (married to Rikae, Lommy's brother); The ranger overpowered by four werewolves in a fight and torn to pieces on Night3.
The Ka, a dog whipper (a fatherless and ageless little child of Lalaith); An innocent impaled to a spear her doll in her hand on Night3.
Cailín, guinea pig breeder, adult (Nilp's sister); A werewolf melted into a candle-wax and burnt on Day3


Night4 has begun.

You know what to do and what to do not.

[Nogrod]

“You listen good now. It will be a complicated story but in the end you’ll see it makes sense if you just listen closely.”

Edelfried took a bite of the apple her aunt had handed her and nodded.

“This world was created a long time ago. A long time before our memory serves us. In the beginning there was the Ainulindalë but even before that there was Ilúvatar, or Eru as the old myths name the being. And it had made the Ainur, the holy ones who formed the Ainulindalë, their song of creation. But there was evil already present there. And what’s even more important, there was the void already in existence and into which this song entered into.

The evil twisted the song and therefore the creation went wrong. For centuries and millennia the good forces of this world fought the evil forces. The ages came and passed over; the evil prevailed at times but the good had their victories too. But then for some reason these mythical forces retreated from this world. Some say they had had enough with those ever recurring battles of good and evil while others say they just lost their interest in this world, some others hold that the battle moved on to other realities, other universes, other aspects of being, to other possible worlds than this one we live in.”

“I’ve heard some of those stories before… I think you have told me some… and uncle Vernon as well… but, what have they got to do with my nightmares of those people suffering so that my heart feels like breaking and I shiver... and my stomach turns upsidedown?”

“Be patient Edelfried. What is important is that the great powers of good and evil are gone. Forever it seems.

And do not forget that the void is and stays. It was there with Ilúvatar, and some say even before Ilúvatar. Anyhow, it is this void – the primal being – that draws people to it these ages when Good and Evil are gone. The time of men is a time of the void.”

Edelfried looked at her aunt totally confused. “But you promised to clarify things! I mean… I thought I was moved because of the good and that I feared the evil. That was why I came to you aunt Clennan!”

Aunt Clennan looked at the little girl with a great sadness in her eyes and stroked her hair once again and then leaving her hand on her shoulder.

“Oh no, my child. No no. You were not brought here because of the good. The good is no more. Neither is the evil. But you came here because of the passion, the compassion, love. And that is the opposite of loneliness, coldness and apathy. These are the powers that now rule the world, the world of men.”

Edelfried felt herself totally at lost.

“What is it you are talking about aunt Clennan?”

“I’m talking of the reason why you will have nightmares the coming night as well. But we’ll do what we can… I told you this wasn’t going to be easy. I'll tell you some tales of the Ainulindalë and of the valar, of the firstborn and the birth of men... of the different ages now gone and the destiny they forged us... Calm down and listen. We still have time today.”


*~*


The werewolves gathered in the centre of the quiet village spotting a house they had planned.

“It must be right this time. After her there will be no little girls in the village…” The biggest one whispered to its companions.

“In we go then?” the other one said.

The biggest one nodded.

The wolves crept silently into the house and upstairs. Finally they came to a door and pushed it open in silence.

“There she is… I’ll pick her” The werewolf sneaked silently beside the bed and with one incredibly fast move wrapped her into her sheets shutting her mouth at the same time. The girl struggled but the werewolf had no problem pulling her tight to it’s chest keeping her from kicking and biting, which she surely tried.

The shadowy creatures left the building with their prey as quietly as they had entered. They stopped back at the well by the oak-tree.

“Now what?” asked one of them. “I’m not particularly enthusiastic with this business on little girls. Give me warriors to butcher… like that Macalaure…”

“Shut up!” Hissed the biggest one. “This I no mere girlie. This is the most dangerous enemy we have in this village… You’ll see it soon enough... Throw her down!”

Diamond fell to the ground and her sheets loosened letting her free.

“You vile creatures! You will pay for this!” Diamond yelled as she struggled herself free. “My dad would have never allowed you to…”

“Yeah, your dad…, remember what we did to him? Now it’s your turn!” With that the biggest one caught the little girl into his arms and picked her eyes from their sockets. The girl was howling from pain.

“Not too bad for a beginner, uh?” one wolf jested.

“Sad we couldn’t train her to be one of us…” another one grinned.

The biggest one looked at the others with fiery eyes for distracting it’s scene. Finally it continued turning towards the still screaming and kicking little girl. “How many times we need to kill you seers? Let the GW know that we will do this as many times we need to!”

With that the biggest wolf threw the screaming and shaking Di to the other werewolves. “Tie her and throw her into the well or whatever…”

They slit her throat open and threw the trembling and now wailing body into the well.

Before they left, the biggest one laid Diamond’s pearly eyes to the brim of the well for a little show-off.

*~*

Alive:

+ A Little Green, a fortune-teller - folklorist - herb-grower - unofficial therapist, advisor and midwife, most presumably a witch, the gammer (the eccentric mother of Lommy & Mac)
+ Shastanis Althreduin, astrologer/fortune teller, gaffer (Greenie's husband, father of Lommy & Mac)
+ Isabellkaya, a gammer who loves asparagus and throwing knives (Shasta's sister)

+ Thinlómien, a bird tamer, adult (married to Nilp, Macalaure's sister)
+ Nilpaurion Felagund, a house-bound sandwich-maker, adult (married to Lommy)
+ Eönwë, Rikae's unofficial helper-person, 22 (their son)
+ Kath, tavern owner, 20 (their daughter, Brinn's life partner)
+ Satansaloser 2005, Lommy's assistant, 17 (their daughter)

+ Rikae, a lumberjack, adult (married to Macalaure, Roa's sister)
+ the phantom, sheep herder with Legate, 21 (their adopted son, Di's brother)

+ Lhunardawen, healer's apprentice, 20 (Cailín's daughter, good twin of Durelin)
+ Durelin, poisoner 20 (Lhuna's evil twin, daughter of Cailín)


+ Roa_Aoife, school teacher, adult (mother of Legate, Brinn and Kit, wife of Nogrod, sister of Rikae)
+ Brinniel, Greenie's apprentice, 21 (Legate's sister and Kitanna's twin sister, Kath's life partner)
+ Legate of Amon Lanc, sheep herder with tp, 19 (brother of Brinn & Kit, Sally's boyfriend, Agan's ex-bf)

+ Lalaith, chocolate maker, adult (sister of Nerwen, mother of Aganzir, Volo's daughter)

+ Mormegil, adult (son of Volo, husband of Celuien, father of Gwath and McCaber)
+ Celuien, a candle maker, adult (wife of morm, mother of Gwath and McCaber)
+ Gwathagor, a highwayman, 20 (McCaber's big brother)
+ McCaber, a henchman, 18 (Gwath's little brother, dates Aganzir)


The dead:
Eomer of the Rohirrim, adult (Cailín's husband, Lhuna's and Dury's father); An innocent beheaded by the werewolves on Night1
Nogrod, the judge, adult (Roa's husband, father of Legate, Brinn and Kit); An innocent torn in two by werewolves on Night1
Nerwen, the healer, adult (sister of Lalaith, Volo's daughter); An innocent nailed to the oak-tree on Day1.
Volo, the guy who knows everything about staying alive, the gaffer (Father of Nogrod, morm, Nerwen and Lalaith); The seer mutilated and eyes pulled off on Night2.
Kitanna, a tavern wench 21 (Legate's sister and Brinn's twin sister); An innocent ripped into pieces and thrown into the well on Night2.
Aganzir, the little match girl, 15 (Lalaith's daughter, dates McCaber); A werewolf burnt alive on Day2.
Macalaure, apple farmer, adult (married to Rikae, Lommy's brother); The ranger overpowered by four werewolves in a fight and torn to pieces on Night3.
The Ka, a dog whipper (a fatherless and ageless little child of Lalaith); An innocent impaled to a spear her doll in her hand on Night3.
Cailín, guinea pig breeder, adult (Nilp's sister); A werewolf melted into a candle-wax and burnt on Day3.
Diamond 18, dissolute, 11 (phantom's pre-teen littlesister); The seer eyes picked out (once again, what a bore...), throat slit and thrown into the well on Night4.


Day4 begins.

Let the words do the deeds.

[Gwathagor]

++Rikae

[satansaloser2005]

What....the....?



EDIT: Crap. Accidentally submitted. Meh, I'll just do another post. By the by, the "What the" was for Di's seership.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Now I'm even more confused that yesterday about what this means for Rikae. Until Diamond's death, I was sure after my reading that Rikae was the EW, but.... I don't know now.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, only one wolf kill tonight.... That makes me think that the EW didn't replace Cailin last night, but the plot alludes to a new wolf, so....

[Thinlómien]

Wow... we have clever baddies. But a clever ranger as well, it seems. Or then something else. I'm quite baffled.


edit: xed with Shasta

[satansaloser2005]

Now I'm even more confused that yesterday about what this means for Rikae. Until Diamond's death, I was sure after my reading that Rikae was the EW, but.... I don't know now.



*jaw still on floor*

Wow. Random turn of events much?

On the plus side, a few items:
1. I'm not dead! (yes, I'm slightly selfish. Deal with it)
2. Di was told to lie by the real GW (or at least I assume)
3. This means I definitely trust Phantom now.
4. Our GW is still in hiding.
5. We can all agree that Rikae is evil now, yes? Yes. Although, EW? I don't think so. I'll have to think about it more.

[satansaloser2005]

By the way, if someone was saved by the ranger, wouldn't it mention so in the narration? Not necessarily the person's name (that would be silly) but that someone had been saved? Bah. My head's spinning enough as it is.


P.S. If anyone's interested, I'll have votes up from yesterday in a bit. I totally forgot about them earlier though, so it'll be a bit.

[Brinniel]

I knew it. I didn't want to say anything yesterDay to give anything away to the wolves, but as Izzy said...it all seemed too clean. There was no way they could all be lying about claimed roles...so I figured one of the good guys must be lying too. Towards the end, I had a feeling Di might not actually be the GW but the seer instructed (or at her own will) covering for the GW. I was hoping the wolves wouldn't see it this way, but I guess I was wrong... :(

[Brinniel]

There there was no indication of a protection in the narration, I think it's more likely either a gifted or wolf was scryed. One kill= three wolves.

[Thinlómien]

Sally, you're probably right about the ranger. So it means we only have three wolves. Great.

2. Di was told to lie by the real GW (or at least I assume)Or then she just improvised. Which is a side issue.


edit: xed with 2xBrinn

[Brinniel]

One other thing:

Before we all decide Rikae is evil (which she probably was yesterDay), there's a chance she was scryed by the GW last Night...which means she could be an ordo now.

[the phantom]

Erm... Gwath... Why did you vote for Rikae?

Without hearing anything from anyone?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Also, only one wolf kill tonight.... That makes me think that the EW didn't replace Cailin last night, but the plot alludes to a new wolf, so....

That's an interesing observation, too. Yes, what you said then, it may be so that it's the Ranger's work - well, what else could that be? But the point is, why not mention it in the narration?

The trick pulled by the good guys is also an interesting thing - of course, it's the loss of the Seer, but then... it helped a lot yesterDay, and depending on the tactics needed, the GW may be still around for longer time (that is, if she was not scried - instead of a wolf kill, for example).

Other than that... I am here more like to look at what happened and so that I don't have to catch up on too much. But it's late here and I am probably not going to participate here in any intellectually demanding debates here. Tomorrow. I don't know yet what plans do we have for toDay, in contrary to our overeager Gwathy who voted before the blood on the well even dried. What if somebody has something to say to this aspect, Gwath. If Rikae is for example the EW, there'll be no point voting her.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I don't know that the GW would have wasted a scry on a blatantly-evil Rikae when she had a ranger to replace, Brinn....

[the phantom]

By the way folks, what happened yesterday was not planned.

I actually thought Di was an Ordo who simply knew I was telling the truth and thus "revealed" to help me out.

Yeah... turns out she was the Seer. She was worried that she had gotten a little too enthusiastic in her support of me, and thus was a goner anyway, and so she just revealed so at least we'd get Cailin lynched. Plus she figured if the WWs killed her the next night she'd still get to dream (which she did) and the GW could simply make a new Seer on Night 5.

So anyway, now you know.

[the phantom]

A few quick things.

1) Don't vote yet. I have special lynching instructions that will be given to you later on today.

2) Completely ignore anything Rikae says.

3) Make a list of every villager and give your thoughts on them. The GW wishes to see everyone express opinions on everyone else.

That's all for now. I have to leave for a while but I'll be back with some more later tonight.

[the phantom]

Don't speculate as to why there was only one kill.

And don't believe Rikae if she decides to tell you.

I will tell you myself- but later on today. There will be some good news and some bad news.

But don't worry about that now. For now, just give your opinions on everyone.

(except Rikae and I, that is)

Okay- really going now. Later.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien
Since when has sally been a known innocent? Or are you just trying to fill my daughter's head with romantic nonsense, young man?

I am not saying that, my possible-future-mother-in-law... as you see I use conditional. But this is a joyful moment. And now stop that, don't you see we want to have a beautiful time here with your daughter...





I noticed this before I went to bed last night, my dear. We? What's this WE business? You best explain yourself. (And of course I mean this in a wolf sense not a jealous way, because honestly who'd cheat on me?:Merisu:)

[Rikae]

Well, well, well. After I carried you for nine months, and suffered through 59 hours of labor - after all I have done for you these 21 years, you ungrateful child! Not only do you make yourself my enemy - your poor old mother - but you turn my husband and daughter against me as well! I had such beautiful plans for all of us, and you, you have to go and ruin it all....

come out, son, so I can give you a thrashing you'll never forget!!!

EDIT: X'd with everybody since Brinn (including that bad seed...)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Alright, I'll be honest:

Phantom, you're really irritating me with this "I have important information that you need to know, but I'm not going to tell you right now" business.

[Thinlómien]

Yes, what you said then, it may be so that it's the Ranger's work - well, what else could that be? But the point is, why not mention it in the narration?Just one kill = three wolves. Three wolves = EW scried a gifted or the GW. I'm not sure if it's worse or better than an extra kill...


edit: xed with everything after phantom's 975
edit2: sorry, it was 977
edit3: really sorry, it was 978 (the craziness :o :D)

[satansaloser2005]

Don't speculate as to why there was only one kill.

And don't believe Rikae if she decides to tell you.

I will tell you myself- but later on today. There will be some good news and some bad news.

But don't worry about that now. For now, just give your opinions on everyone.

(except Rikae and I, that is)

Okay- really going now. Later.




Blast you Phantom it's dinner time! Don't go yet. Explain, my dear boy, explain!


Bah. It'll all reveal itself in due course I imagine.

[Roa_Aoife]

Well, Di's role is certainly a surprise. The question is now what we can gather between that and what it means for phantom and Rikae (And consequently Legate).

Here are the possibilities I can think of:

A. Di was the seer and dreamed of Cailin. She didn't know who the GW or the other gifted were. This means that we can't really figure out if she knew phantom's role or Legate's role. She didn't dispute phantom's claim, but that may only mean that she doesn't know the identity of the hunter, and so chose to trust phantom because he also wanted to lynch Cailin.

B. Di was the seer and dreamed of Cailin. She did know the GW but not the Hunter. She would know Rikae was lying, and chose to trust phantom because again, he was for lynching Legate.

C. Di knew both the GW and the hunter's role, and so sided with the hunter, phantom.

I can't understand why the GW would risk revealing her identity to the gifted, since they could be turned to wolves and tell the EW. So I'm more prone to believe A. Which means that we can't just immediately jump to conclusions about either phantom or Rikae's roles. However, this doesn't explain Rikae's behavior very well if she is the GW or perhaps the hunter.

Of course, there is also the fact that there was only one kill last night, which means that the EW did NOT scry another wolf. Either the EW scried the hunter, and the hunter is now an ordo among us, or the the EW scried the GW, in which case we may expect a challenge soon, but not necessarily. Especially if the evil team is down so low.

I need to go through Rikae's posts. I'll be back in... likely a few hours with how much there is to read.

Edit: Cross posted with a lot. Well, I guess Rikae has answered the question for me.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I can't understand why the GW would risk revealing her identity to the gifted, since they could be turned to wolves and tell the EW. So I'm more prone to believe A. Which means that we can't just immediately jump to conclusions about either phantom or Rikae's roles. However, this doesn't explain Rikae's behavior very well if she is the GW or perhaps the hunter.

See, this is a point I'm unclear on. If the EW scries a gifted, does that immediately turn the gifted into a wolf, or just an ordo? Because if it's the latter, then the GW should have no qualms about revealing herself to her gifted because ordos are still innocent.

[Rikae]

So, you're still in hiding. I guess you'd like to give me another night, and a fourth wolf, then? :smokin:

Fine with me.

[Thinlómien]

See, this is a point I'm unclear on. If the EW scries a gifted, does that immediately turn the gifted into a wolf, or just an ordo? Because if it's the latter, then the GW should have no qualms about revealing herself to her gifted because ordos are still innocent.Just an ordo. But an ordo can be scried into a wolf...


edit: xed with Rikae who pretends to be the EW. Nice.

[Rikae]

Edit: Cross posted with a lot. Well, I guess Rikae has answered the question for me.

Tsk tsk - don't you remember? Tp ordered you not to listen to me. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Just an ordo. But an ordo can be scried into a wolf...


edit: xed with Rikae who pretends to be the EW. Nice.

Yes, but that would take two nights, giving the GW a chance to act, correct?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Tsk tsk - don't you remember? Tp ordered you not to listen to me. :p

Which irritated me; I don't take ultimatums well. *glares at Phantom*

[Rikae]

edit: xed with Rikae who pretends to be the EW. Nice.

I'm pretending? Well, I guess that makes me a wolf, then. Lynch me! I dare you, sis-in-law!

[the phantom]

Blast you Phantom it's dinner time! Don't go yet. Explain, my dear boy, explain!
Phantom, you're really irritating me with this "I have important information that you need to know, but I'm not going to tell you right now" business.
Sorry, but I literally have to walk out of the door to my house this second!

Actually, I should already be on my way!

Sorry, but that's all for now. Follow those three rules I gave you.

Good bye.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Follow those three rules I gave you.


!!!!!!!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I noticed this before I went to bed last night, my dear. We? What's this WE business? You best explain yourself. (And of course I mean this in a wolf sense not a jealous way, because honestly who'd cheat on me?:Merisu:)

Hey, I think I do not understand you. The thing you quoted cannot be explained in any other way than that I am speaking of you and me, my dear? That's it. Or sorry, I did not understand the question probably.

[Isabellkya]

I just want to get in a post real quick before I head off to help with dinner.

I think it is blatantly obvious that the EW either scried the GW or a Gifted. There was only one kill last night - which as I see a few people have pointed out, means only three wolves. Though I do recall something else which was mentioned by Nog about there being new instructions to the wolves - I'd have to look it over to check.

I think phantom slipped yesterday, and let it be known that Diamond was not the TRUE GW.. I will even show you where if you don't know.. when I return.

As well... the simplest reason for such things.. can be true. Rikae herself said that she was having fun in saying she was the GW. If she were the EW, what more could/would there need to be, in fake revealing herself as the GW - other than to ferret out a gifted or two, as well as the GW. Even flushing out one is gift enough, but all would've been a jackpot. So it seems to me - that the EW or one of the wolves picked up on Diamond as the seer - and thus decided to kill her for it. As well, they could easily scry Phantom, thus getting rid of two gifteds in one night. It is more logical this way - scrying Phantom doesn't allow him to get his dying kill, killing the seer; well why wouldn't they? So I would say, giving up adding an extra wolf to their pack, seems to have been well worth it to be able to get rid of two gifteds in on night.


I think there were a few other things I wanted to say, but I had a gazillion thoughts I wanted to get out quickly. I shall return later.



X'd since Roa's #986.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

She would know Rikae was lying, and chose to trust phantom because again, he was for lynching Legate.

Hey, you mean against lynching Legate? :confused:

[Thinlómien]

Every cell in me urges me not to follow phantom's directions. I'm not always bad at taking orders, but I'm bad at taking orders from haughty people who behave all too self-consciously and annoy me and whom I'm not sure if I can trust. *le sigh* I mean, I think I can trust tp but I'm not sure, this game is looking more and more complicated...

On the other hand, I was planning to do such a summary toDay anyway, just to force myself to think about some people I have so stupidly let fly under my radar. :rolleyes: And I can't think of any harm that doing it would bring. So, phantom, know this: when (if?) I do the summary, I'm doing it because I planned to do so, not because you requested it. Period. :p ;)

I also recommed others not to be as rebellious-spirited as I am. I think it's a very good idea to make everybody make a summary... we must just swallow our pride and let tp boss us around... (I can see how he enjoys the situation...)


edit: xed with everybody who posted after me

[Roa_Aoife]

Yes, but that would take two nights, giving the GW a chance to act, correct?

Act how, exactly, Shasta?

Someone mentioned the Ranger. I suppose it's possible, so then we have four wolves, a clever ranger, and an irritating as sin hunter *glares at phantom*.

If you have directions from the GW, hand 'em over. Stop playing games with us. I notice that that's exactly what Rikae did yesterday. We know that Diamond trusted you, but we don't know that she knew your role. You could very well be the EW and Rikae is your wolf. I wouldn't put that kind of move past either of you. You can say that Di was trying to help you because she knew you, but all we have is your word on that. She may have simply been duped.