Werewolf LIII: The Republic [Archive] - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 03:28 AM

Alright. So our reps are Brinniel, Ilya, Nogrod, Boro, the phantom, Aganzir and Legate? Not bad. The one I voted got through and none of them (except possibly tp) strikes me as suspicious. Although, I'm still wondering whether I like the fact that a majority of the elected are loud, experienced players. (Yes it's me who's saying this...) I don't doubt their wit, but I only fear this will lead more and more to the village being divided in two parts - the loud expert elite and the less experienced or less loud ones. Also, someone talked about a charismatic wolf representative leading the village... I generally dislike that kind of talk, but I can't help thinking about that right. Well, whatever, I trust my own ability to stay critical... ;)

Then, another thoght... voting someone as a rep is surely a great way of buddying up fellow villagers. That's why the Agan-Brinn and Legate-phantom "alliances" make me wonder... I mean, of course it's just natural too to reward trust with trust and one is subconsciously inclined to trust someone that trusts them and blah blah blah, but such vote exchanges are curious. I'm not sure what to think about them.

I think Lommy's right about a possible Boro-Phantom-Legate triangle, but to what purpose? Surely they're not all wolves... are they?I'm right about what exactly? That they form a triangle of sorts? That much is pretty obvious...

Sure you're right (whoever it was to point it out) that we should be careful not to vote for any clear clicks as our representatives - like even if I feel pretty good about Greenie at the moment I wouldn't like her to be a representative for us just because Brinn already is.Well see the current rep situation and see for yourself... Agreed that it might be a bit dangerous- admittedly I was only looking at it in the suspiciousness perspective.

Morm makes me very uneasy. But I think that's just a reflex... :p

Wolves will lay low, stay out of things to let innocents lynch innocents, or they will attempt to get rep votes by sounding reasonable? Which one is it Lommy?Why do you ask? It should be obvious that different wolves probably employ different tactics. Also, it should be obvious I may come up with possible wolf tactics but I can't just name one they're most probably all going to use.
But now that you made me think about it, I think many wolves would be tempted just to lay low, because the reps will be questioned over their decisions over and over.... but by no means all the wolves - although the thought doesn't quite cheer me, I think it's even quite probable that one of our newly elected reps is a wolf.

If there's nothing by your name I think nothing of you. (Take that how you like heh. Kidding, kidding.)And what if my name isn't on the list at all? *refrains from adding any kind of smiley because of the silly limit*

I will probably do a list to order my thoughts about people next...

PS. Now that tp is elected a rep, I feel inclined to vote against a filibuster... :p

edit: xed with McCaber

Nerwen

11-12-2008, 03:54 AM

Sorry about lack of posting. My connection's been down... I have a lot of reading to do now/:(

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 04:05 AM

Alrighty then, here come my thoughts...

Aganzir - pretty silent, but RL hurries are RL hurries. She seemed to be rather tense, but she herself said she was not having a good day... so I won't judge anything either way yet. I'm looking forward to see what she's going to do as a rep...

Boromir88 - weird. Well, not him, but the fact that I don't get any vibes from him. Usually, I can pretty accurately tell by gut-feeling whether he's innocent or guilty, but this far I have no idea of him yet. I would very much dislike to see him lynched on Day1 - he contributes and I haven't played with him in ages.

Brinniel - seems innocent enough, although Agan and Greenie's great trust in her makes me raise my eyebrows. Also, her voting Agan for rep in turn is not something I'd like that much... I'll be watching her although she doesn't give many any bad vibes per se.

Diamond18 - that confidence baffles me. I'm not trying to say she's usually not confident, but she's simply not usually like that. I very much want to hear more of her.

Eönwë - seems like his normal self. I'm not worried (at least yet).

Gil-Galad - not here.

Greenie - a questionmark. She's a sneaky girl for sure and I cannot decide whether her vote for Brinn makes her look slightly suspicious or very innocent.

Gwathagor - has not posted enough for me to have an opinion on him.

Ilya - I voted her as a rep, and I'm quite happy with it. She seems innocentish and reasonable although I don't agree with her on everything.

Legate - I cannot say I like his 180 degree turn on tp, but I have to admit it looks very innocentish.

Kath - should I be worried if the only thing I recall of her is that she voted me for a rep? I hope we hear more of her soon...

McCaber - submarineering a little again. But maybe he'll talk now that he has returned.

mormegil - like I said, he makes me really uneasy. It's just a gut-feeling. And I know my bad gut-feelings of morm are not to be trusted. So I will refrain from lobbying for his lynch until I have a reasoning-based reason to suspect him...

Nerwen - I can't see why Legate thinks her suspicious. I think her first post was pretty fine, and she's infamous for messing up with Day1s and deadlines. :D I'm looking forward to see more of her, for sure.

Nogrod - seems sensible and innocentish. My only worry is that he seems almost too much so.

Rune - not here.

Sally - I don't know. I actually get a slightly worriesome feeling from her, but she was a lover last game and far more serious and careful than now... So I don't know.

Shasta - seems very innocent.

The Ka - I like her but I don't trust her. She seems a little non-commital ("I'm an observer, sorry, I won't post that much") and a little odd, too. She'll never earn my trust easily after that performance as an evil Radagast...

the phantom - *sigh* Last but not least? I don't know, I can't bring myself to trust him. He's too nonsense-y and throws in some points I don't quite like (like for example the one about requesting ordoness). Also, his vote for Legate kind of came pretty suddenly and was reataliatory, which troubles me... but actually it may make him look more innocent. I don't know. I'm sorry to say this but a dead phantom is the one I like the best because it's the only one that doesn't give me headache. :rolleyes:;)

Well, somebody already said it, but I wouldn't be surprised either if it turned out that we have no wolves... but I'd like to murder Fea personally then because it would be terribly frustrating and kind of boring...

edit: xed with Nerwie

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 04:14 AM

Although, I'm still wondering whether I like the fact that a majority of the elected are loud, experienced players. (Yes it's me who's saying this...) I don't doubt their wit, but I only fear this will lead more and more to the village being divided in two parts - the loud expert elite and the less experienced or less loud ones.
And isn't that what was the purpose of this system? Let the experienced, the wise rule, to order all things for that good which only they can see. Now, those in power may work for the best of the village, not distracted by the random votes of the idle or irresponsible.[/end of Saruman's - crossed with Senator Palpatine's - elitarian speech]

Also, someone talked about a charismatic wolf representative leading the village... I generally dislike that kind of talk, but I can't help thinking about that right. Well, whatever, I trust my own ability to stay critical...

POWEEEEER!!! UN-LIMITED POWEEEEEER!!!!!!!!

Okay, now on more serious note, though (no, not fis-moll). After this short while, I could offer a list of people, repeatedly, with some updated information - that's probably the easiest and most productive thing to do rightaway, as I will be around for a while now, but from then on not until late in the Day.

Before it, though, one more thing: when it comes to the current representatives, I am pretty fine with the people and also with their numbers, and most of all, with the power of votes - nobody here has stronger vote, so that's good, I say. And among us, we may - hopefully - pick the choice which is best for the whole village. Gah, a pity I can't be around in the following hours to discuss. But in the evening (10 or so hours from now) I will.

Anyway, for now, the list I promised... coming in a next post (to check if I didn't x-post with any people).

Why do you ask? It should be obvious that different wolves probably employ different tactics. Also, it should be obvious I may come up with possible wolf tactics but I can't just name one they're most probably all going to use.
Why not? Although I am worried about one possible thing the wolves might do, but not sure if I should talk about it here, nevertheless, I believe the wolves could well think of that themselves. (I'll see yet if I am going to talk about it, but possibly later.)

satansaloser2005

11-12-2008, 04:24 AM

Greeeeat. Legate's gone completely mad now. ;)

Crap. Sorry, Lommie dear. I must have accidentally deleted your name from my list of stuff. I don't find you suspicious, if it matters. I actually considered you for a rep too, but forgot to add you to that list as well.

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 05:00 AM

Okay, seems like nothing much, only Lommy's list, and that is not going to now change my opinions much. So, here goes mine:

Aganzir - It will be most interesting to see her as a rep; she did not give any special suspicious vibes this far. I am more interested in those who voted her, for she A) said pretty plainly that she won't have probably much time (in fact, at least on me it made the impression as if she were almost like rejecting the Rep position for toDay), B) really said just very little to get any much reading from her. And I think that goes for everyone, not just me. So I am most curious about those who voted her (Shasta and Brinn). The more about Brinniel, since it was voting back. But as for Agan herself, I have nothing much about her in person.

Boromir88 - this far seems reasonable, active, in fact (I forgot to say it yesterday), I am happy to see him around. I believe that if he is actively around, his questioning of people may be helpful and eventually thwart some Wolvish plots, let's say, to misguide people. Even if he were a Wolf himself, I am not that sure if he'd be capable of making too much harm with this.

Brinniel - Well, what I said. Her nomination does not worry me per se, but I need to get more reading about her and, what worries me slightly, is her Agan-vote (cf. above). Otherwise, however, her recent posts seem to have an innocent-ish tone to me.

Diamond18 - no change since the last time. Hard to say.

Eönwë - makes me worried because of the little he says, complains, and for his a bit "by-the-way" vote for Greenie (but since all his appearance around here was more like "by-the-way", it is in fact just natural). Anyway, really would like to see more for him, but rather don't like him that much: a careful WW, perhaps?

Gil-Galad - no change since the last time. Nothing to say.

Greenie - I am now wondering whether it wouldn't have been interesting to see her as a Rep after all, but well, whatever. This far, I still stand with looking at her more like on an innocent.

Gwathagor - I wish I could get a better reading on him now, for I am somewhat worried - not sure why, right now it's more of a gut feeling, and I think that behind his vote for Nog there may be some sinister intentions (get a fellow Nogwolf among the Reps based on the simple premise that we all think Nog is a reasonable player, therefore the vote won't strike anybody as awkward? An attempt to win innocent Nog's goodwill by voting him? Etc.) It is just a gut feeling, though: on a more general platform, I have nothing special to say on Gwathagor, and I should probably, for the future, look more carefully at his posts.

Ilya - seems very good this far, nothing to complain; let's see how she proves herself.

Legate - is the Sith Lord! Are you sure, Anakin? Stay here. - You are under arrest, Chancellor. Are you threatening me, Master Jedi? Bzzzz!

Lommy - Innocent-seeming, I would say, like an innocent Lommy would be.

Kath - Slipping. Under. The. Radar.

McCaber - looks like a classic Cabbie to me this far, and no reasons to suspect for now.

mormegil - I could just copy what I said in my earlier list: his behavior is just morm-ish, which means a bit scary to me, but he looks like having good points and such.

Nerwen - good now to see that she is back, that makes me wonder less what's wrong with her. So, a slate clean and now let's see what she does once she is here.

Nogrod - well, what I said before: reasonable, quite helpful, all that stuff, and let's see what he does as a Representative; the only thing I am a bit wondering about is his idea of giving a Rep post to somebody quiet. I can see the logic he presents (get them to speak), but I could also see it (if it was so) as a way to get a fellow quiet Wolf among the Reps. Of course, though, with the vote for Ilya (whom I think innocent) I won't think this that probable.

Rune - probably summoning Holger Danske from the bottom of the mug instead of voting around here.

Sally - Of course, especially because of the great support of myself, a very good person, for certain. Really, though, nothing wrong with her, and seems innocentish, very genuinely Sally-ish.

Shasta - I really, did not like some of his posts recently (around the time I voted) and I really, really, really don't like the vote for Aganzir - a kind of throwaway (in the sense: for somebody who was not around almost at all, a vote likely to disappear, while still not bringing Shasta into attention by that he wouldn't vote at all - a vote of a Wolf who is afraid to vote for a comrade, but afraid to vote for a "strong" player)? Wolf-on-wolf? Out of nowhere? vote.

The Ka - Now I wondered how to express that, but I see Lommy phrased it in her last post pretty well, so using her words: "She seems a little non-commital ("I'm an observer, sorry, I won't post that much")". Observer, that's the word, and it is like, chime in, chime out, I am around, and I said something do you recall? Yes, you said something, but if we stopped for longer, we don't recall what, because it was almost nothing. Unsettling.

the phantom - Well, as for the vote for me, if I could see it as a last-minute choice, I can see the logic behind it - it won't strike me as suspicious as Brinn's vote for Aganzir, at least. Otherwise, what I said - he seems like reasonable and hopefully having the best intentions of the village in mind. So, "I hope you won't fail the trust you put in me" could be my motto in regards to him now (that's not a typo. That's intentional ;) ).

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 05:04 AM

Greeeeat. Legate's gone completely mad now. ;)

Bah! Nonsense. I am perfectly sane, as you can see from my posts.

Okay, well - I am going to be around here for a short while yet, but then I will leave - very soon - and will be back in some, like I said, ten or so hours. So, until then... well, I presume to find loads of pages (but hopefully not too many), and hope there will be good basis to stem from for the voting. I said probably all I could have for right now.

You may also prepare questions for your Representative, voters ;) If you have any.

P.S. Good, Aaanakin, gooooooood... Kill him. (Bah, I should have left that for the lynch ;) )

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 06:05 AM

Hey, I thought we all agreed to have these meetings in my cottage. . . I have been waiting for ages!

Anyways is there a summary I can look over?

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 06:07 AM

No. *comforting and pitying smile*

And I am here just now by chance and am leaving. See you in some ten hours, folks.

And good luck, Rune... :rolleyes: :)

EDIT: Or, maybe from the last page or so you can at least gather who the Representatives are for today, and by reading some list get some... well, of course from personal points of view... but some idea of how things are.

Nerwen

11-12-2008, 06:21 AM

Okay, I've read through the posts. The problem is that the unusual set-up is making lots of people act rather strangely... no-one's really standing out as wolfish. Here are a few things that struck me, however:

Nogrod's vote for Ilya. The reasoning is fine, but I feel it's a bit out of character from someone who generally favours known "elite" players.

Aganzir for Brinniel. I'd agree with her that Brinn seems sensible, but what does she mean by saying she's "usually trustworthy"?

Diamond18 trying to get in on a "lynch the phantom" ticket, on the grounds that Fea must have picked him. Yes, it's the sort of thing she might do... but then she might do lots of things... it just seems rather opportunistic.

The business with the phantom, Legate, and Boro: "I suspect you... no, wait, you're fine, I'll vote for you instead" ...seems a little choreographed, rather like what I thought I saw with Shasta, tp and Brin earlier... Hmmn. They can't all be wolves.

And now that the appropriately-named Legate is in power, what is he up to?:eek::

POWEEEEER!!! UN-LIMITED POWEEEEEER!!!!!!!!

Legate - is the Sith Lord! Are you sure, Anakin? Stay here. - You are under arrest, Chancellor. Are you threatening me, Master Jedi? Bzzzz!

Good, Aaanakin, gooooooood... Kill him.

X'd with Rune, Legate.

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 06:34 AM

There seem to be only one question that needs to be asked: Why would anyone vote for Brinniel?

Latter on I might ask the same about Aganzir, but surely that is just a case of "early-stage madness"

OK I have not read through everything that has happened and I am basing this on my previous experience with these two individuals, but surely you would want a representative with a bit of an edge and not a compromise of a person. . .neither do you want a raving lunatic. (exept if it is a raving Lhunatic)

Naturally I would have been the obvious choise and people should have done more to get hold of me or atleast have voted for visionaries like Mormegil in my absense. . . . Mormegil is my enemy and wrong in many ways, but atleast he has visions!

I will expect to get at least 50% of the votes either from Representatives, the wolves or the next time we elect representatives.

Nerwen

11-12-2008, 06:56 AM

There seem to be only one question that needs to be asked: Why would anyone vote for Brinniel?

Latter on I might ask the same about Aganzir, but surely that is just a case of "early-stage madness"

OK I have not read through everything that has happened and I am basing this on my previous experience with these two individuals, but surely you would want a representative with a bit of an edge and not a compromise of a person. . .neither do you want a raving lunatic.

What a way to talk about members of our elected government! :eek:

I agree, nonetheless (forgot to include this in my last post) that it's rather peculiar that Aganzir got in this time, when I believe she's only made one post.

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 07:11 AM

First off, I'm glad to see Nerwen and Rune around.

Crap. Sorry, Lommie dear. I must have accidentally deleted your name from my list of stuff. I don't find you suspicious, if it matters. I actually considered you for a rep too, but forgot to add you to that list as well.Never mind. :) I was just wondering...

I am more interested in those who voted her, for she A) said pretty plainly that she won't have probably much time (in fact, at least on me it made the impression as if she were almost like rejecting the Rep position for toDay), B) really said just very little to get any much reading from her. And I think that goes for everyone, not just me. So I am most curious about those who voted her (Shasta and Brinn). The more about Brinniel, since it was voting back.That's a fair point. But, on the other hand, you and Nogrod also mentioned having RL hurries yet both of you were still elected too...

Observer, that's the word, and it is like, chime in, chime out, I am around, and I said something do you recall? Yes, you said something, but if we stopped for longer, we don't recall what, because it was almost nothing.Well, everybody has a different style so I don't think we can condemn observers but we can condemn using it as a sort of pre-warning excuse for possible future actions...

Nogrod's vote for Ilya. The reasoning is fine, but I feel it's a bit out of character from someone who generally favours known "elite" players.Why so? Nogrod always tries to make quiet people talk more...

Greeeeat. Legate's gone completely mad now.
And now that the appropriately-named Legate is in power, what is he up to?
I think we can make the obvious conclusion that we should not vote him as a representative in future - just to ensure his own sanity, health and safety, right? ;)

You may also prepare questions for your Representative, voters If you have any.Now this reminds me of something I thought of doing and I could recommend it to everybody else too. Read through the representatives' posts (and don't grumble to me, I did not vote tp, or Boro, or Legate, or Nogrod ;)) posts and question and challenge their points. They need that.

And besides, all the normal case-making and talking/argumenting with fellow players should obviously go on all the time. Not being a representative is no excuse to laze around for the latter half of the Day.

edit: xed with Nerwen

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 07:48 AM

Ai, ai, ai! Four pages.

she's only posted twice (what's up with that?)
Getting home late, tiredness, a paper to write, and a general annoyance with the world.
Today I should be able & willing to post more, though.

and in a bit of anti-Brinn mood (this "large front of support" simply does not sit well with me, taken that Brinn, from my part, gets no reading)
Why doesn't it sit right with you?
Also, could you explain what you actually mean by "large front of support". I am aware that Brinn was considered innocent by a few people at the early stages, but I wouldn't call it a large front yet.

I'm was thinking of voting Nogrod- he seems very reasonable and is talking a lot of sense (but maybe trying to be too helpful).
How is he trying to be too helpful? Please elaborate.

But then she voted Brinniel, which I wouldn't do.
Why wouldn't you?

Thanks for the votes, Shasta & Brinn, although I'm curious to know why you ended up choosing me since my posts were rather poor in content and neither of you had to vote very early. Also sally, why were you considering me?
I am sure you are both aware that since I had not posted (nor formed) any real suspicions by the time that you voted me, it's not impossible that I end up suspecting/voting one of you. (Don't know how likely it is, either. Just felt the need to point it out).

Agan I'm not sure how involved she will be.
So have I appeared irresponsible and quiet in all the games we've played together? ;)

Then, another thoght... voting someone as a rep is surely a great way of buddying up fellow villagers. That's why the Agan-Brinn and Legate-phantom "alliances" make me wonder... I mean, of course it's just natural too to reward trust with trust and one is subconsciously inclined to trust someone that trusts them and blah blah blah, but such vote exchanges are curious. I'm not sure what to think about them.
I don't find them curious in themselves. However, if there's something strange in them, it's the seeming lack of reasoning , but that's a thing that applies to the voting in general, not only these "alliances".
I find it odd that it made such a big impression on you.

Agan and Greenie's great trust in her makes me raise my eyebrows.
Could you elaborate on our great trust in her. Where did you find it?

I don't like it how Lommy seems to exaggerate things that seem rather small to me.

A) said pretty plainly that she won't have probably much time (in fact, at least on me it made the impression as if she were almost like rejecting the Rep position for toDay)
I wasn't, but I wasn't actively running for a rep, either. I'm around this afternoon but I won't stay here until deadline.

Aganzir for Brinniel. I'd agree with her that Brinn seems sensible, but what does she mean by saying she's "usually trustworthy"?
My main reason for calling her trustworthy was that she's a player I have a history with and I know she's responsible and will contribute & be around. She can also be helpful if innocent, but that's not a point I considered so much when voting her.

I agree, nonetheless (forgot to include this in my last post) that it's rather peculiar that Aganzir got in this time, when I believe she's only made one post.
Two, to be precise. However, both of them suffered from several lack of substance, so I wonder about it, too.

I'm off to reread the thread.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 08:52 AM

So have I appeared irresponsible and quiet in all the games we've played together? ;)~Agan
Irresponsible...you said it, not me. :D

Anyway, no, I was running through the people with 1 vote, and while I believe you would be a great rep, based on what you said yesterday, I didn't know whether you would busy and/or annoyed today. It has no bearing one who I choose in the future.

Why so? Nogrod always tries to make quiet people talk more...~Lommy
True, but as I noted, if a wolf-Nogrod can't become a rep, it could be an attempt to keep power out of other vocal players who could be trouble for him. Also, it could be a way to get the wolves more involved in the voting, and he's simply masking it under the umbrella of "trying to get more info" from people.

Anyway, unless Nogrod, you want to tell me a secret you're hiding, you won't be getting my vote. I'll say it again...you won't be getting my vote - I want to stress that point, because I won't pull a Legate 180.

The business with the phantom, Legate, and Boro: "I suspect you... no, wait, you're fine, I'll vote for you instead" ...seems a little choreographed, rather like what I thought I saw with Shasta, tp and Brin earlier... Hmmn. They can't all be wolves.~Nerwen
I'm not quite sure where you, or Shasta got that idea from. Shasta said he got it from Lommy, who originally pointed it out. But, if I recall all Lommy did was really point out the obvious. That us 3 were obviously interacting, but didn't inquire any further.

I see what you're saying about Legate and the phantom. Legate completely turned around, and the phantom's vote seems out of the blue. But I would ask you not lump me in with those two. I have not recanted anything I've said about Legate, and now I want more answers from him (which I will get to in a moment). As far as the phantom, I don't believe I ever suspected him, nor said he would not be my representative.

I can be around for another hour, or so, and then will be out until about 6 EST. First, I would like to hear the thoughts of my constituents. Ilya? The Ka?

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 09:02 AM

There seem to be only one question that needs to be asked: Why would anyone vote for Brinniel?
Hmph. I ought to vote for you toDay for just saying that. :p

Thanks for the votes, Shasta & Brinn, although I'm curious to know why you ended up choosing me since my posts were rather poor in content and neither of you had to vote very early.
Part of the reason I chose you was because you unusually quiet; I was hoping that by putting you in a position of power I could draw you out more and get a better read of you early in the game. Also I wanted to pick someone who tends to make good judgements when accurately suspecting whether someone's a wolf or not. It became between you and Shasta and I decided you over him because voting him would've gotten nowhere since he had no votes and as I already said, I think it's better we have more reps than less. In fact, seven is a perfect number. That's one third of the village.

On another note, it's best I warn you all that I have a busy day in RL ahead of me. I'm going to be gone from 11am to perhaps as late as 9:30pm EST. I'm so sorry about that, but it can't be helped. :( But I'll definitely be around at the end of the Day and if I can get here earlier, I will.

A Little Green

11-12-2008, 09:06 AM

You guys should really really slow down. :p I've been reading the thread for a few hours... Okay, then to some thoughts that came to me as I read.
I would hate to see a scenario where some of the "generally trusted veterans" would make all the votes when we have this kind of opportunity to try things in the first Days.I agree that a situation with only "generally trusted veterans" as reps is not nice, but for a different reason. I think it is not a favourable situation because, quoting Lommy,I only fear this will lead more and more to the village being divided in two parts - the loud expert elite and the less experienced or less loud ones.That I think is a real problem, not only because it enables quiet wolves to slip by, but also because it will lead to a not-so-enjoyable and not-so-sporty game. I agree that when playing werewolf one should contribute and post actual substance; nevertheless, I don't like the way people seem to think that flooding the thread with posts is the only right way to play and the closer you get to that the better you are. We can't all be phantoms or Nogrods, nor do we need to be. It's just alarming how this "loud, experienced veteran" type seems to be the "ideal" werewolf player who sort of must be respected just because of that status. No, I'm not saying "Don't respect experienced loudmouths". What I mean is that we should avoid only considering these kind of players as good players or players worth being a rep.

Okay, sorry for that. I got a bit heated on that topic. Now back to the actual game.
Ok, so toDay I am voting

++Nogrod

as my representative. I think he'd do a good job of keeping the quiet players on their toes, making the ranks of the sub-reindeer-sitters a less than safe place for a wolf to hide. This, at any rate, is my hope.I must wonder at this. He's basically voting Nogrod because he'd keep quiet players on their toes, but then, I at least would count Gwath among those very same quiet players. I don't know what to think about that, but I felt the need to point it out.
Hmm. Perhaps it's more of an angle, with Phantom at the center. I just latched on to Lommy's phrase because I saw the same thing she did.This argument looked very weird to me. Shasta? What did you mean?

One more thing - like Agan, I don't quite understand where these phrases like "great trust" and "large front of support" come from. I never said I had great trust in Brinniel - I think I said that she looks innocentish and is a sensible player or something along those lines. Don't know, but it looks like someone is trying to make small issues into big ones.

Generally, I think Leggie looks quite innocentish, Ka is slightly creepy, and Agan speaks good sense and raises good questions. I'm also happy to see Rune and Nerwen around.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro and Brinn

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 09:36 AM

However, if there's something strange in them, it's the seeming lack of reasoning , but that's a thing that applies to the voting in general, not only these "alliances".Could be. I have no doubt it will useful to go through all the reasons for the rep votes. But on the other hand, there's lots of other stuff that would be useful too, like for example wolf-hunting...

Could you elaborate on our great trust in her. Where did you find it?It was rather great taking into account how little she had said. Neither of you spared postive adjectives when describing her capacity to take up the task. Also, it is kind of curious that the first two rep votes go to the same person. (Although, it kind of make sense too that Greenie wanted to make sure her vote counts when she went to sleep...)

I don't like it how Lommy seems to exaggerate things that seem rather small to me.Slight exaggeration has always been a part of my way of talking, you should know that. ;) But honestly, I don't think I've been exaggerating anything in this game.

True, but as I noted, if a wolf-Nogrod can't become a rep, it could be an attempt to keep power out of other vocal players who could be trouble for him.That seems unlikely to me. Kind of goes against the fact that he wants to keep dangerous adversaries around by not killing them during the Nights.

Also, it could be a way to get the wolves more involved in the voting, and he's simply masking it under the umbrella of "trying to get more info" from people.Now, that's a better point. He could very well do that. But you would have to apply that suspicion/accusation to me too since I think I was the first one to bring up the idea of voting people to make them more active.

I must wonder at this. He's basically voting Nogrod because he'd keep quiet players on their toes, but then, I at least would count Gwath among those very same quiet players. I don't know what to think about that, but I felt the need to point it out.Now that's a good point. Rather interesting... is there an explanation, Gwathie? ;)

I'm going soon, but I will be back well before the deadline to give some more thoughts.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 09:55 AM

But you would have to apply that suspicion/accusation to me too since I think I was the first one to bring up the idea of voting people to make them more active.~Lommy
Are you trying to give me a reason to accuse you? :p

To Legate, why in Eru's name did you make the phantom your rep?

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 10:04 AM

Garr I suppose it's useless to ask people to post less. But it took me this long to read through it all and write a post.

Guilty
Lommy. I know I tend to suspect her, especially on the first days. And to me she almost always seems overreactive and suspicious. But it happening always is not an excuse for me to put her in the Neither cathegory so she's happily here again.
If we really have to try filibustering, why not toDay when there's (probably) the least action and the smallest chance of lynching a wolf?
I found this comment not necessarily suspicious but weird. Is filibustering something you "really have to try"? Aren't there any possible advantages to it? You say the only purpose you can see it serving is chaos-creating, and I think that's exaggerating.
In addition to that, the following looked a bit overreactive, as did the things concerning the votes Brinn got, which I posted already in my previous post.
To be honest, this whole Boro-phantom-Legate triangle baffles me. What are these guys up to? I don't mean to say that they're evil, nor that even one of them is evil, but such behaviour does make me a little cautious. I would say I'm keeping an eye on them, but in this village, one can hardly avoid paying attention to those three.
For I couldn't really see any triangle between them. Could either Lommy or Shasta, or both, explain to me where it came from.

Eönwë. I think he's always more or less like that, but usually I don't find him suspicious. At least I don't remember doing it, although I may have contributed to his lynching once. However, he feels different this time. Somehow more self-conscious. His remarks seem to come out of the blue and it's hard to read him because he doesn't give much substance.

Shasta. Don't really understand where that phantom-Boro-Legate triangle came from. It reminds me a bit of Nerwolf's "their interaction makes me think there might be a wolf involved" in some game ages ago.

Legate. I don't know. I just somehow don't like him. I'm at a loss as to why he voted against filibusters because I myself can't see anything wrong with them (if someone is filibustering when I want to go to sleep, then I just don't vote), and his anti-phantom thing looked fabricated (which it probably was), as well as his wavering and 180 turn later on. However, his reaction to Boro's questioning looks rather innocentish.

Innocent
phantom. He doesn't give any bad vibes although I am perfectly aware that he could appear innocent even if a wolf. For the sake of my sanity I'm not going to concentrate on him for now, I am sure others will do it more than enough anyway.
Brinn. I agree with her that there shouldn't be very few reps. I'm feeling pretty good about her now that I saw her response to my question why she voted me.
Boro amuses me a lot. He looks innocent and I find myself agreeing with him on several things, but it was the same last time I played with him, and he was a wolf. I'm wary of him based on those past experiences, but I find him more innocent than not for the time being.

Neither
Nog. I won't concentrate on him now, either. Although he has posted a lot, I have hard time trying to get a read on him.
Greenie. It's always difficult for me to form an opinion on her. Somehow I'm a bit uneasy as to why she followed me so quickly on voting Brinn for a rep. Not that it was necessarily suspicious, it just seemed too easy.
Gil. I wrote on his wall on Facebook and told him the game has begun so hopefully he pops up sooner or later.
Ka. No idea. Hasn't posted much about her opinions and suspicions yet.
Cab. Looking forward to seeing your list since it's the second half of the day now.
Kath. No idea.
Di. I noticed the confidence but don't know what to think of it.
sally. No read.
Ilya. Why do you think everybody seems to trust Brinn?
Gwathagor. No idea.
mormegil. No idea.
Nerwen. If it was anyone but Nerwen, I could say I was a bit more inclined to consider her innocent.
Rune. No idea.

**

Okay, I've now proceeded to Page 7. As for the posts made while I was travelling through the thread...

Could be. I have no doubt it will useful to go through all the reasons for the rep votes. But on the other hand, there's lots of other stuff that would be useful too, like for example wolf-hunting...
Err? Your response looks rather empty. About whatever we do here is wolf-hunting, and at least I would consider going through the voting reasons wolf-hunting as well. You seemingly don't.

It was rather great taking into account how little she had said. Neither of you spared postive adjectives when describing her capacity to take up the task. Also, it is kind of curious that the first two rep votes go to the same person.
We didn't spare positive adjectives?
Because I agree with her that the less reps there are, the more room for errors, and because she's a player who is generally trustworthy although I always find her so suspicious, and because she probably won't be the centre of attention.
because she is a good sensible player, seems innocent, and has already received one vote so is certainly through.
I found only one in my post. I can't speak for Greenie but I wouldn't call her use of positive adjectives great trust, either. If we have to vote early and you know it, why on earth are you telling us later that we trusted her way too much given how much she had posted?
I find it worth noticing too that the first votes went to the same person, but I wouldn't call it great trust.

Slight exaggeration has always been a part of my way of talking, you should know that. But honestly, I don't think I've been exaggerating anything in this game.
What if I said I didn't know that?
Of course I can think of situations where you speak in an exaggerating manner. That's probably one of the reasons I suspect you in every game. However, I don't know of it always having been part of your way of talking.
And I do think you've been exaggerating. Trying to make small issues sound bigger than they are.

mormegil

11-12-2008, 10:06 AM

I am almost caught up. Sorry about that, life threw me a curve ball. Anyway those who are sticking out most on my radar are the phantom becuase of his silliness. I've NEVER seen him like this. Legate seems to be trying too hard, if that makes sense, there is something unsettling in his demeanor. Shasta gives off the same feel as Legate. There are some others who give some vibes but not overly so.

Lommy, it's good to know that I'm back being suspected for unfounded reasons...the world is back in order.:p:rolleyes: I somewhat feel the same about you but I'm trying to get over the long history of suspecting you, I think you've taken the Kath role away from her.

Kath

11-12-2008, 10:08 AM

Eonwe and Greenie are wolves. That's just in my head. I've been reading for about 20 minutes through all the voting of the Reps and all the rest of the chatter and that's what I came out with. However, as I've been reading for 20 minutes I've no idea what I read that made me come to that conclusion! I think it was something in one of Eonwe's early posts but I suspect that if I went back and tried to find it I'd just confuse myself even more.

I am a little confused actually as I had it in my head that once the Reps were voted for only they were able to talk. That's why I thought it would be easier to keep up if you did get elected. The fact that we're on, what, 8 pages now (?), clearly disproves that theory.

The loudmouths are being their usual selves, bar Rune who I see has just turned up so we should see more from him soon. Nog I'm finding that I trust more than usual. It's been a while since I've played with morm and I've lost any ability I might once have had to read him but at the moment I'm not getting anything negative anyway.

Brinn I'm trusting having seen her reaction to being elected. Lommy I'm still trusting as I haven't seen anything to change my mind from earlier.

But really there are just so many people! It's hard getting a fix on anyone at the moment because my mind is a bit frazzled just trying to remember who said what as well as keep up! Perhaps lists are the way to go after all.

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 10:24 AM

Maybe I should start campaigning already. . .

If I get your votes at next election I promise to cut down on beaucracy, insincere and overly extensive posting. In short I will vote for people like Nogrod.

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 10:30 AM

Shasta. Don't really understand where that phantom-Boro-Legate triangle came from. It reminds me a bit of Nerwolf's "their interaction makes me think there might be a wolf involved" in some game ages ago.
I see I forgot to mention that also Shasta's lack of reasons for voting me contributed to his getting on my Guilty list.

I fail to see why someone's unusual silliness should serve as a reason for suspecting him, morm. At least my own playing style tends to vary from game to game. Then again I haven't played enough with phantom to tell if he always behaves some way and is now the complete opposite.

As for who I am going to vote - I'm known for changing my mind at the last minute (and if I'm not, I should be!) and voting for totally random people based on a whim. But I guess Shasta and Brinn were aware of that. ;)
I have no real ideas yet. If I had to vote now, it'd probably be Lommy, but in the end I'm not sure she's the wisest choice.

If somebody wants to try to convince me to vote in a certain way, they have approximately five hours to do so. After that I'm certainly off to sleep.

edit: xed with Rune. You know, next will be elected the lynchee. ;)

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 10:38 AM

But that is not an election as such. . . .it is more like getting a death sentence.

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 10:41 AM

So? It's decided by vote and people are making campaigns for others. Election, say I.

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 10:57 AM

To be useful I'm going to check Eönwë's posts. He's first because he has relatively few posts and I am lazy.

Eönwë, why did you think Shasta would be voted for a rep? What were these previous game experiences you were talking about? I'm curious.

Some jokes about phantom's excessive posting, the point of which being that no one can get a good read on him because of the number of his posts.

I think it would also amuse Fea to make you a WW, so that everyone will vote you as a rep and then you will vote badly (purposefully).
I fail to see where this came from (apart from "out of the blue"). What was the reason for saying that? Why would Shasta be voted for a rep? Why would Shasta vote badly on purpose if he was a wolf? What does it actually mean to "vote badly"?

Eönwë was against filibusters because "there was no need for them" and "they won't actually help anyone" since we don't know anything. Hey Fea, has the seer got a dream already, or only next night?
However, in the end Eönwë didn't vote against filibusters, asking who he is to stop them if someone wants to waste their filibuster today.

He voted Greenie (good vibes, seems innocent, similar opinions) for rep. Considered voting Nog (reasonable, talks sense) but decided against it because of Nog's time constraits. He considered also Ilya, who seemed to him innocent enough but whom he didn't think he knew well enough yet.
The bad thing with Greenie, in his opinion, was that she had voted for Brinn. For coherency's sake I ask again here the two (I think there were only two) questions I posted earlier: why wouldn't you have voted Brinn? Why did Nog look maybe too helpful? And also, why did you choose these people since as far as I remember you hadn't mentioned any of them earlier. Especially I'm curious about Ilya.

I don't know... Somehow Eönwë's comments seem to be too random, have too little to do with anything else. But most of them are not quite as bad as I remembered them to be, either. I look forward to Eönwë answering my questions and hopefully giving out more of his opinions before taking another step.

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 11:06 AM

Hey Fea, has the seer got a dream already, or only next night?

The seer has dreamed.

Nerwen

11-12-2008, 11:16 AM

Don't really understand where that phantom-Boro-Legate triangle came from. It reminds me a bit of Nerwolf's "their interaction makes me think there might be a wolf involved" in some game ages ago.

Funny, that... it reminds me of it too.;) But I noticed the thing they (Lommy and Shasta) are talking about too. I'll accept Boro's correction at #271:
the three of them were interacting and very "chummy", but the actually peculiar stuff was between Legate and the phantom... that is, the way they reversed their opinions of other seemed sort of staged.

Ilya. Why do you think everybody seems to trust Brinn?

Because two people voted for her, I suppose.

Nerwen. If it was anyone but Nerwen, I could say I was a bit more inclined to consider her innocent.

Thanks, Agan, I love you too.:p

EDIT:x'd with Agan and A Voice from Beyond the Grave.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 11:22 AM

If somebody wants to try to convince me to vote in a certain way, they have approximately five hours to do so. After that I'm certainly off to sleep.~Aganzir
Well, right now if it was forced on me, Legate's at the top, but I have nothing set in stone...I would even say I have nothing written in pencil yet.

The thing that's worrying about Legate it seemed like a pretty grand act at the beginning. What I mean is it may have been partially Legate joking and having fun, but he was making clear in his responses why he doesn't want the phantom (he's too willful, independent...etc) as a representative. Then he goes and does the complete opposite.

The part that's worrying is just how blatant it is, it's right out in the open, for everyone to catch, which makes it look like a big act. On the other hand, since it is so out in the open, it makes Legate look rather innocent. The question is would a wolf-Legate want to be this obvious, this early in the game? Is he trying to pull a double-bluff?

And for the phantom's role in this, I'm really baffled. From what I remember, the phantom does what he thinks is best for his side winning. I don't see this as a wolf-act, because I really don't know how it would benefit a wolf-phantom? I think it would benefit a wolf-Legate more if he were to blatantly attach himself to an innocent phantom, then if the phantom was also in cahoots with Legate.

Ya, that's not really anything, more just some circular rambling.

Some others who are sparking interest...

Rune is making his presense known, now. So far I find him pretty amusing, so I guess that'd make him in the "I don't know" list, if I did have a list.

Agan is calling on her true form, that's good to see, but I will go back and look at this Lommy-Agan back-and-forth, or whatever you want to call it.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Agan's post 282

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 11:34 AM

i am here, give me some time and i will post my thoughts.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 11:39 AM

I see I forgot to mention that also Shasta's lack of reasons for voting me contributed to his getting on my Guilty list.

Mostly that, at the time, everyone I wanted as a Rep already had two votes and everyone that had one vote was someone I didn't care to trust just yet. And I wanted to give my vote to someone who would use it responsibly, as you've shown you can do, in past games.

I'm really not liking Legate this game. (His style, I mean, not him as a person :p). Maybe I'll go back and look at him today.

Also, when I said -

Hmm. Maybe it's more of an angle, with Phantom at the center.

I meant that there were some odd goings-on between Phantom and Legate, and Phantom and Boro, but not necessarily between Legate and Boro. Is that clearer at all? Because I see that's the basis of the current suspicion on me and would hate to be suspected because of a misinterpretation.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 11:40 AM

Funny, that... it reminds me of it too. But I noticed the thing they (Lommy and Shasta) are talking about too. I'll accept Boro's correction at #271:
the three of them were interacting and very "chummy", but the actually peculiar stuff was between Legate and the phantom... that is, the way they reversed their opinions of other seemed sort of staged.

This is exactly it! Thanks, Nerwen. :)

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 11:44 AM

Part of my reason for not liking Legate:

Shasta - I really, did not like some of his posts recently (around the time I voted) and I really, really, really don't like the vote for Aganzir - a kind of throwaway (in the sense: for somebody who was not around almost at all, a vote likely to disappear, while still not bringing Shasta into attention by that he wouldn't vote at all - a vote of a Wolf who is afraid to vote for a comrade, but afraid to vote for a "strong" player)? Wolf-on-wolf? Out of nowhere? vote.

"Mountain out of a molehill" much? And what do you mean by "not liking some of my posts"?

(Bias? Me? Never. :p)

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 11:45 AM

I also agree with this, of Boro's:

I think it would benefit a wolf-Legate more if he were to blatantly attach himself to an innocent phantom, then if the phantom was also in cahoots with Legate.

because as much as it pains me to say (:rolleyes:), Phantom is giving off a (weak) innocent vibe to me at the moment.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 11:47 AM

However, Phantom is a Rep today. So just in case I am wrong:

++No Filibuster

because if I had a list of "Most Likely To Filibuster", you'd top it. :p

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 11:50 AM

So? It's decided by vote and people are making campaigns for others. Election, say I.

I guess it depends on your definition and the normal one would be that election is a process where people vote for a person (or party) fill a position. (and normally you have the option to decline the position)

When we express our preference or for a proposed resolution of an issue it is called a vote. . . . I would say choosing a lynch is a vote rather than an election.

Anyways on to more serious matters, I do think that Boro's thoughts about Legate are interesting and a worthy subject of debate.
I only regret that I have not seen more to Boro of late, I seem to have forgotten how he acts in these kind of situations.

EDIT: Cross Posted with Shasta

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 11:56 AM

hmmm... i love this start to the game right now.

my top suspects include, in no particular order:

The Phantom
Shastanis
Ilya

Phantom - oh how i missed you so, you are bringing good thoughts to the table but also making dangerous enemies. but know that you are the only one on my list to make it to my innocent list, but just be careful what you say next day.

Shastanis - you are chatty which is good, but also bad. and i think i am going to vote for you, you know why? because your random non-consistent posts. that means you are checking this game alot, which could also mean that you are a wolf and an anxious one for that matter and popping in everytime to see what people are saying so you can launch your fiendish scheme.

Ilya - you seem to have views of others that differ with the majority, i like that but also hints at secret agenda...

now i want to vote Shastanis... but it wont mean much so i guess i will go

++Ilya for repersentative.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:00 PM

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 12:01 PM

of course not, in the immortal words of phantom i am going to wing it.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:04 PM

of course not, in the immortal words of phantom i am going to wing it.

*headdesk*

First off. The deadline for voting for representatives has already passed (like, half a day ago).

Secondly, voting a representative does not mean you're voting to lynch them. Voting a representative means you're voting for someone to vote to lynch someone else.

Thirdly, you can't vote at all today. Only representatives can vote.

Fourthly, your suspicion list makes no sense. Phantom is your "top suspect", but was the "only person to make it to your innocent list"?

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 12:05 PM

Because two people voted for her, I suppose.
In my opinion that doesn't have to indicate great trust. This may sound a little sordid but I don't care much if we make mistakes in the process of catching the wolves since it's likely that every mistake will teach us something. I don't intend to vote every single day for a rep I find innocent - I might also want to see how someone reacts when given the power. There are so many of us that we can afford to let a few ordos die if it helps us to find the wolves.
However, I'd still like to hear Ilya's thoughts on the matter.

Thanks, Agan, I love you too.
I rather play it safe. :p

Gil, you're still visible.

And I wanted to give my vote to someone who would use it responsibly, as you've shown you can do, in past games.
Could you give me an example of using my vote responsibly.
Of course I might be wrong but in my opinion I'm about the most irresponsible voter ever, random votes being the only thing I don't have on my sin list yet.

I meant that there were some odd goings-on between Phantom and Legate, and Phantom and Boro, but not necessarily between Legate and Boro. Is that clearer at all? Because I see that's the basis of the current suspicion on me and would hate to be suspected because of a misinterpretation.
Yeah, thank you. Based on what would you like to be suspected, then?

When we express our preference or for a proposed resolution of an issue it is called a vote. . . . I would say choosing a lynch is a vote rather than an election.
I don't care that much about semantics.
Especially if I'm not fully aware of those little differences.

What's with all these Legate suspicions popping up?

edit: xed with two Gils & Shastas

A Little Green

11-12-2008, 12:06 PM

Hmmm... I don't know what's the use of me making lists since I'm not a rep, but I'll make one anyway just to annoy you. (And to clear my thoughts a bit, because without a list I'm bound to overlook somebody and I don't like that.)

Agan - Her case on Lommy seems somewhat fabricatied. Though I agree with her that Lommy was exaggerating when talking about our trust in Brinn, I'm not convinced that it's a good reason for suspicion. Neither do I see anything suspicious in Lommy's filibuster post. Her first post toDay looked innocentish, but the whole Lommy-thing makes me wonder.
Boro - He seems okay. Nothing that rings my alarms.
Brinn - Still innocentish and sensible; I don't regret at all choosing her as my rep.
Di - Nothing new.
Eönwë - Agan brings up good points about him. All in all he has been quite slippery and sort of overly universal or non-specific. I'd like to see more of him before forming an opinion, though.
Gil-Galad - Nothing new, sadly.
Gwathagor - I have no idea. He is securely under the reindeer still, except for that Nogrod thing which he hasn't explained yet. Maybe I'll wait for him to comment on that topic before forming any opinions on him. All in all, I'd very much like to see more of him.
Ilya - Seems very innocentish and reasonable.
Leggy - Seems innocent as well. I think his change of opinion regarding phantom looked very innocentish, though he perhaps made too big a show of it. (But then, he's been making a show of things in general in this game, so...) I can't see how would it profit a wolf to do something of that sort.
Lommy - She seems quite okay. Though I don't necessarily like the way she exaggerated my and Agan's support for Brinn, I don't think it indicates to guilt.
Kath - Her latest post baffles me. No, not because she suspects me; but because her suspicion is so strong, comes so out of the blue, and lacks a reason. I have no idea what to think of it, but it's weird.
McCaber - Under Rudolph.
morm - No read.
Nerwen - Seems more like an innocent Nerwen. Knowing her, though, it probably means she is a wolf.
Noggins - Nothing new to say about him, either. Leaning innocent.
Rune - No idea yet, but at least he's amusing.
Sally - Basic Sally. Not suspicious nor strikingly innocentish.
Shasta - I'm torn about him. Both suspicious and innocentish. The triangle thing looks quite bad on him, actually - my guess is that where Lommy referred to a phantom-Boro-Legate triangle she meant that the three interacted a lot with one another and were in the centre of attention, Shasta took it as a suspicion that the three were fellows and grasped it. Please, Shasta and/or Lommy, correct me if I've misread you; but that's how it seemed to me.
Ka - She creeps me out, don't know why.
phantie - No idea.

EDIT: x-ed since Boro

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 12:06 PM

phantom is not my top suspect. and he is not only one on my innocent list.

BASICALLY if your not on my suspect list your on innocent list

sigh... giving me a headache already...

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:09 PM

phantom is not my top suspect. and he is not only one on my innocent list.

BASICALLY if your not on my suspect list your on innocent list

sigh... giving me a headache already...

hmmm... i love this start to the game right now.

my top suspects include, in no particular order:

The Phantom
Shastanis
Ilya

Do I need to point out the contradiction here, or can you find it yourself? :p (hint: it's underlined!)

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 12:11 PM

my top suspects include, in no particular order:

do you understand what i mean by phantom isn't my only top suspect? (Hint: it is in bold.)

oooooh i am enjoying this early fighting already.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:11 PM

Shasta - I'm torn about him. Both suspicious and innocentish. The triangle thing looks quite bad on him, actually - my guess is that where Lommy referred to a phantom-Boro-Legate triangle she meant that the three interacted a lot with one another and were in the centre of attention, Shasta took it as a suspicion that the three were fellows and grasped it. Please, Shasta and/or Lommy, correct me if I've misread you; but that's how it seemed to me.

I can't speak for Lommy, but I thought the three were interacting a bit oddly with each other, but couldn't figure out how to say that until Lommy posted. I've since revised that theory, though.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:13 PM

do you understand what i mean by phantom isn't my only top suspect? (Hint: it is in bold.)

oooooh i am enjoying this early fighting already.

phantom is not my top suspect.
is what you said.

Before that, you said
my top suspects include, in no particular order:

The Phantom
Shastanis
Ilya

I never said you said Phantom was your ONLY top suspect. You said I said you said that.

satansaloser2005

11-12-2008, 12:14 PM

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:15 PM

Could you give me an example of using my vote responsibly.

I didn't mean specifically your vote, I meant any kind of power at all (including power of reasoning :p).

Specific example... Rikae's "Other Minds and Hands" game, where your Hunter claim caused me no end of headache. :p

On what basis would you like to be suspected, then?

My charm and flair for the dramatic, of course! ;)

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 12:16 PM

Fourthly, your suspicion list makes no sense. Phantom is your "top suspect", but was the "only person to make it to your innocent list"?

you said i said Phantom was my top suspect, then i said i didn't say that, that i said he is one of my top suspects. and i even said in no particular order.

and i mean "only person to make it to your innocent list" by that he is the only suspect that may redeem himself by what he says, thus i am unclear about him right now on what he is.

my my you are really defensive for a wolf.

A Little Green

11-12-2008, 12:17 PM

I'm glad Gil appeared (Hello!:p) - even though he seems quite a bit confused and self-contradicting. Shasta looks more innocentish after his newest posts - thanks for clearing the triangle thing up. :) I feel somewhat better about Agan as well.

Oh, I'm glad I don't have to vote. It would be far too difficult.

EDIT: x-ed with Shasta, Sally, Shasta and Gil

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:17 PM

satansaloser2005

11-12-2008, 12:18 PM

P.S. I just read the rest of Gil's post(s). Is it just me or does he make even less sense than Phantom? (And of course I mean that in the nicest way) :Merisu:

Oh, and

++No fillibuster

Not that we should have to worry about it toDay, but still.

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 12:19 PM

i was just defending myself from being called a further idiot...

and yes i admit i messed up with the voting, my bad.

i had a feeling this was going to be a bad idea... maybe i should just step out of the game now before it becomes too late.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:19 PM

satansaloser2005

11-12-2008, 12:19 PM

you said i said Phantom was my top suspect, then i said i didn't say that, that i said he is one of my top suspects. and i even said in no particular order.

and i mean "only person to make it to your innocent list" by that he is the only suspect that may redeem himself by what he says, thus i am unclear about him right now on what he is.

my my you are really defensive for a wolf.

Nope. It's not just me. That's decidedly odd.

*crashes for an hour or two*

And how does being confused by your post make Shasta a wolf? Or defensive?

EDIT: x'd with Shasta

EDIT again: Don't worry about the voting thing, Gil. Happens to the best of us. Just go give the admin thread a quick scan and you should be fine. After all, this isn't a typical game, so it's hard to keep up with what's going on. :)

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 12:22 PM

Agan - Her case on Lommy seems somewhat fabricatied. Though I agree with her that Lommy was exaggerating when talking about our trust in Brinn, I'm not convinced that it's a good reason for suspicion. Neither do I see anything suspicious in Lommy's filibuster post. Her first post toDay looked innocentish, but the whole Lommy-thing makes me wonder.
What case? Where?
It was a list. :p

It was only Lommy's response (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=573082&postcount=274) to my earlier accusations which actually made me suspect her - earlier she sounded just a bit suspicious, a bit weird, such. But her response seemed somehow... evasive. Trying not to defend herself too hard. Babbling random things about wolf-hunting. Trying not to look like a wolf who's defending herself. That's the impression I got.

And when Lommy gets home she will scream and jump up and down and wonder how I can be so annoying as to suspect her every time we play together.

Shasta and Gil, you're amusing me an awful lot.

Specific example... Rikae's "Other Minds and Hands" game, where your Hunter claim caused me no end of headache. :p
Gosh it was my second game! I haven't done anything like that ever since! :p

edit: xed since the Shasta I quoted

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 12:22 PM

Don't step out! Just make sure to read the rules. :)

Edit: And I never called you an idiot...

i have never read the rules in any WW game,like i said i just wing it and learn from my mistakes.

the last thing i want is to insult people, and if i am inadvertently doing that and i don't realize it, then i must excuse myself from the rest of the game.

EDIT: the whole "its underlined" part makes me feel like you are calling me an idiot and thats what made me go more defensive, so to say.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 12:25 PM

Gosh it was my second game! I haven't done anything like that ever since!

It was my first game! It left an impression! :p

it was the whole "it's underlined" part

I was only pointing out the contradiction. I apologize if I made it seem like I was insulting your intelligence.

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 12:28 PM

I was only pointing out the contradiction. I apologize if I made it seem like I was insulting your intelligence.

more of a slap in the face then anything. but i am willing to forgive and forget

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 12:36 PM

Nerwen

11-12-2008, 12:38 PM

*applauds*

I'm thoroughly enjoying the Gil-Shasta double-act. Pure comedy gold.:D

EDIT" x'd with Rune.

A Little Green

11-12-2008, 12:39 PM

Agan - thanks for clearing the Lommy thing up, it makes more sense now. The response doesn't look like the most innocent Lommy, though I still don't go so far as to suspect her because of that.

The Shasta-Gil-affair is quite weird, like arguing about nothing in particular. Relax, guys. :D

EDIT: x-ed with Runne and Nerwen

satansaloser2005

11-12-2008, 12:40 PM

What do you say, should we move on from the "have Gil read the rules discution" because I dont see that we will gain anythinge else than a high post count from it.

Anyways I read through Greenie's post and what she said about Kath, that made me go and read what Kath had said. . .because my short term memory is not working at the moment.
After looking at it I arrived at the conclution that Kath belongs on my shortlist of people I might vote for, it seems like the kind of post you would only write if it was true. I have often tried to read through a lot of posts and ended up with the conclusion that someone seemed wolfish without being able to say why. . .
Of course we cannot act on gut-feeling alone, but Kath speaks planely in a language the people can understand, she seems honest and straight to the point.

If she keeps it up I see no reason why I would not vote for her. (For Representative that is)

Re: Gil. Couldn't agree more. It doesn't help us any gamewise, unless he's trying to hide wolfishness behind not knowing the rules.

Re: Kath. Good to know. Perhaps, though, we could discuss that toMorrow, as we can't do anything about future reps before then? Not to say that you can't let your opinion be known, but I think it'd be better to talk about potential wolves than potential reps at this point. (And again, I'm tired, so if I misunderstand your post in some way please accept my apologies.)

In short, good thoughts. Now what do you think about wolves?

Nerwen

11-12-2008, 12:47 PM

Can we assume that Gil's out? His confusion looks pretty genuine to me (however, I haven't played with him much).

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 12:53 PM

Re: Gil. Couldn't agree more. It doesn't help us any gamewise, unless he's trying to hide wolfishness behind not knowing the rules.

Re: Kath. Good to know. Perhaps, though, we could discuss that toMorrow, as we can't do anything about future reps before then? Not to say that you can't let your opinion be known, but I think it'd be better to talk about potential wolves than potential reps at this point. (And again, I'm tired, so if I misunderstand your post in some way please accept my apologies.)

In short, good thoughts. Now what do you think about wolves?

No you did not misunderstand, but you picking Representatives and deciding who to lynch is in some ways related. I have no real lynch candidates, but I do have people that I think would be good Representatives or that I just have a good feeling about. By saying this about Kath, I also say that I do not want her lynched and as such it is part of that debate. . .

The alternative would be that I would be very quiet until I got a proper susbect and that could take a while.
It would also mean that I could not defend anybody from accusations, as my focus would be on their presumed innocens.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 12:57 PM

Turned out I'm busier than I thought I'd be. But I'm here now and I'm slowly catching up on the last couple pages. After my first skim it's good to see some extra villagers are joining the fray.

As far as the comments regarding "The Terrifying Triangle of Doom!" (aka the Boro-Phan-Leg Triangle) I'm not sure what to say. Boro and I interacting is pretty standard.

Legate's 180 might have been planned, maybe not. But I'm not sure anything can be taken from it.

And as far as my selection of Legate for Rep, it was rather simple. Though I don't trust him (and I said that well before I picked him), I know I can count on him to be around and give me something to go on. In addition I did not want votes to be wasted and thus desired to give my vote to someone who already had a vote.

I couldn't vote for myself. Agan hadn't shown much and looked busy, so I wasn't going to pick her. I didn't have a read yet on Green, and wasn't sure I'd even get one from her on Day 1. I thought of Lommy as my pick, but I didn't trust her not to use my vote and stab me in the back with it.

Who is left? Legate. And the fact that he had given his vote to me made him an even more obvious choice.

But now I'm off to read more carefully. I'll begin more posts after lunch.

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 12:57 PM

Oh my goodness what a read!

But I did it! And it only took something like 1½ hours... :rolleyes:

So I'm updated at last. It will now take a cigarette and a glass of wine but I'm back pretty soon.

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 01:07 PM

Di, Legate, Boro, Ilya, Shasta, sally
voted against filibuster. That's six out of 21. So for the time being it seems that filibuster is possible. At least I'm not going to vote against them (not that I'd be around at deadline anyway).

I don't know if I should be happy or terrified of phantom and Nog appearing at the same time.

satansaloser2005

11-12-2008, 01:09 PM

No you did not misunderstand, but you picking Representatives and deciding who to lynch is in some ways related. I have no real lynch candidates, but I do have people that I think would be good Representatives or that I just have a good feeling about. By saying this about Kath, I also say that I do not want her lynched and as such it is part of that debate. . .

The alternative would be that I would be very quiet until I got a proper susbect and that could take a while.
It would also mean that I could not defend anybody from accusations, as my focus would be on their presumed innocens.

Nope, totally cool, I just wasn't sure what you were trying to accomplish with offering rep choices. Makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for explaining! :)

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 01:54 PM

It's not in vain that democracy has been called the most civil form of government! Just look at the civility with which thoughts are exchanged here. And those who tend to go after each other in every game smile and say they tend to trust each other - and all the lists are full of people whom the posters feel innocentish and in the extreme occasion they only would like to hear more from some... :rolleyes:

Okay. It's not that, but this game really is different. After we have used 24 hours thinking whom we trust we seem to have stayed the course and I'm seeing far less actual suspicion than I would have wanted to see at this hour.

Staying with the general issues for a moment still before going actually back to check some ideas on people that the read araised (and possibly starting to suspect someone openly?) I'd like to comment on the issue of choosing the delegates & reading the intentions behind those choices, which subject aroused some discussion earlier toDay.

First of all I wouldn't get troubled by the line up of our representative body toDay even if it consists mainly of some quite battle-hardenend independent-minded loudmouths. I would have been surprised were it any other way on this Day1. But as Days and Nights pass many of us get lynched or killed, some start to suspect one and someone else starts to suspect another etc. So the representatives will change and many people are brought forwards to bear the burden of responsibilty and looking-glass scrutiny the following Day on their turn.

That brings me to my second point. Someone said (Lommy it was?) that voting for someone as a representative would be nice buttering up, done by a wolf that is. Some might actually think so as trust feels good every time. But I'm not so sure how great a favour that will be. I'd be even more inclined to think that the best buddying up of a villager would be to call her/him "trustworthy" or "speaking sense" or "having great points" - and not vote her/him to be a representative.

Btw. the reason I'm getting an innocent feel from both Di and Rune is their apparent eagerness to make it to be a representative.

Thirdly about the eagerness of wolves to make it to being a representative which many here have taken for granted. I must say I'm not so convinced about it. Well, some might really wish for that as wolves just for the fun of it - and sure later it might be very important for the wolves to have their say in critical votes by the representatives. But on Day1 in a village this undecided?

Someone wondered why I proposed some quieter ones as representatives as going against my usual way of playing. Lommy already answered that (I wish to get the quieter people talking and taking responsibility and stop hiding in the shadows - or I wish to see more of the players I've not played before like the case with Ilya).

But I couldn't imagine trying someone out of the blue as my representative on Day5 just to see her/him perform. Or at least that would require some exceptional circumstances.

All in all this game is different so not all age-old and proven ways of thinking apply.

Gwathagor

11-12-2008, 01:57 PM

*sigh*

Let's get this over with.

++Legate for Rep

This hardly seems to be the attitude of logic and confidence regarding your vote that you presented in post #324. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=573152&postcount=324) Which one is the reality?

Shasta - I really, did not like some of his posts recently (around the time I voted) and I really, really, really don't like the vote for Aganzir - a kind of throwaway (in the sense: for somebody who was not around almost at all, a vote likely to disappear, while still not bringing Shasta into attention by that he wouldn't vote at all - a vote of a Wolf who is afraid to vote for a comrade, but afraid to vote for a "strong" player)? Wolf-on-wolf? Out of nowhere? vote.

These suspicions seem fabricated to me. Which posts in particular didn't you like, and why? Aganzir has been talking quite a bit toDay, so I'm entirely sure what you mean by "a vote likely to disappear." Had Aganzir been relatively quiet prior to the first DL? I can't remember. Maybe I'll check later.

There seem to be only one question that needs to be asked: Why would anyone vote for Brinniel?

Because she's a good player? Why are you opposed to Brinniel as a representative?

Now that's a good point. Rather interesting... is there an explanation, Gwathie? ;)

:( Not really. I haven't posted much yet because I am in the process of directing a play, i.e. I am busy. I'll try to post more in future Days. Speaking of which...I need to go do some blocking before the rehearsal.

Kath

11-12-2008, 02:02 PM

Having just read the last post: Gwath, Rune said at the top of that post that nothing he was saying including that comment was actually based on the game, it was simply a first post nonsense thing.

Can I ask, what do the representatives actually want us to do? I mean obviously we can't vote but do you want to know who we would vote for if we could to help you make your decisions? Basically - do you want your votes to be based on the feelings of the whole village or are you on your own, votes based on your thoughts/gut feelings depending on which you use? It would just be nice to get an idea of how this is going to work.

Gwathagor

11-12-2008, 02:03 PM

Gil-Galad

11-12-2008, 02:07 PM

Can we assume that Gil's out? His confusion looks pretty genuine to me (however, I haven't played with him much).

never assume anything from me, knowing my luck i have stated 1-2 of the wolves already... i will lurk alot

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 02:09 PM

I found this comment not necessarily suspicious but weird. Is filibustering something you "really have to try"? Aren't there any possible advantages to it? You say the only purpose you can see it serving is chaos-creating, and I think that's exaggerating.I don't have to try a filibuster. I can hardly see the point in it. I was just thinking that this village will want to try it and I can kind of see why - it's a once in a ww career chance. I think that much was pretty obvious from what I said. And no, I honestly cannot see it smartly serving any good purpose. If you can, tell me, and I even might become a filibuster-supporter. :rolleyes:

For I couldn't really see any triangle between them. Could either Lommy or Shasta, or both, explain to me where it came from.I was merely pointing out the obvious: that those three have interacted with each other particularily much and stand out because of that and because of their loudness.

Shasta. Don't really understand where that phantom-Boro-Legate triangle came from. It reminds me a bit of Nerwolf's "their interaction makes me think there might be a wolf involved" in some game ages ago.I cannot see anything that suspicious in Shasta's actions, even though they were maybe a little weird.

Legate. I don't know. I just somehow don't like him. I'm at a loss as to why he voted against filibusters because I myself can't see anything wrong with them (if someone is filibustering when I want to go to sleep, then I just don't vote), and his anti-phantom thing looked fabricated (which it probably was), as well as his wavering and 180 turn later on. However, his reaction to Boro's questioning looks rather innocentish."If someone is filibustering when I want to go to sleep, then I just don't vote"??? And you elected this person to be a rep? That is... outrageous. If someone has been given the trust to become a rep, it is utterly irresponsible to care so little about the vote. *shakes head*
Secondly, I diasgree with your suspicion of Legate. I think his anti-phantom thing was more like a sort of prejudice that simply wore off. And like I've said before, I doubt a wolf would have made such a 180 degree turn. That would have served no purpose but making him look more suspicious and gather attention.

Honestly, Aganzir's suspicions strike me as rather forced. I think she's merely trying to grasp any kind of behaviour she can call suspicious and make a horrible mess out of it. And she claims I'm exaggerating. How rude. :D Simply put, I don't think her behaviour looks like hunting wolves, it looks like hunting supicious behaviour. I cannot phrase it so that it makes any more sense, but I hope at least someone can understand that.

Err? Your response looks rather empty. About whatever we do here is wolf-hunting, and at least I would consider going through the voting reasons wolf-hunting as well. You seemingly don't.Ah, see? Again. She's taking something I've said and tries to make it as suspicious as she can. (I know someone who talks as carelessly as me must be an irresistible target... ) Going through the vote reasons is wolf-hunting, yes, but not the same way as rereading the thread, debating and making cases. Maybe I phrased that badly, but I think going through those reasons would be alittle secondary in a village like this where relatively few suspicions have been presented in realtion to the post/ page count.

I found only one in my post. I can't speak for Greenie but I wouldn't call her use of positive adjectives great trust, either. If we have to vote early and you know it, why on earth are you telling us later that we trusted her way too much given how much she had posted?If something frustrates me in these games it's that I always get suspected because people take my personal impressions as twisting of the truth. I got the impression that you trusted her quite a lot given the early phase of the game. I'm not going to continue arguing about the exact truth of this. It's the feeling I got and I'm entitled to it, you may have seen it differently, but frankly, I don't care. I cannot trust anything you say anyway. And lastly, to reply you, I think that's a pointless question. Of course you had to vote and give your trust to someone. I only think you gave your trust rather easily to her exactly and phrased it so that it looked rather easy.

And I do think you've been exaggerating. Trying to make small issues sound bigger than they are.Okay, I know I'm getting heated but this is just too much! You cannot say that to me. You're the one nit-picking and making mountains out of molehills all the time. I have no doubt it's wise to question about everything everyone says but when you do that, you can hardly blame anyone for making small issues sound bigger than they are.

The question is would a wolf-Legate want to be this obvious, this early in the game? Is he trying to pull a double-bluff?I've already talked about it, but I doubt he'd want to be that obvious. Of course, he is well able to pull a bluff like that, so who knows. He strikes me as rather innocent really, and I can't see all this sudden suspicion for him.

The triangle thing looks quite bad on him, actually - my guess is that where Lommy referred to a phantom-Boro-Legate triangle she meant that the three interacted a lot with one another and were in the centre of attention, Shasta took it as a suspicion that the three were fellows and grasped it. Please, Shasta and/or Lommy, correct me if I've misread you; but that's how it seemed to me.More or less so, I think. At least for my part.

And when Lommy gets home she will scream and jump up and down and wonder how I can be so annoying as to suspect her every time we play together.I'm not screaming and jumping because of that, I'm screaming and jumping because your suspicions of me are so incredibly stupidly ill-based and wolvish! Anyway, I don't mind being suspected, really, it kind of makes it more probable to make it through the Night. And lastly, it would be hypocritical of me to be angry with you being like that because I too have fallen to my old habit - suspecting you in return. ;)

Agan - thanks for clearing the Lommy thing up, it makes more sense now. The response doesn't look like the most innocent Lommy, though I still don't go so far as to suspect her because of that.Now this really strikes me as terribly wolvishly diplomatic. *shrugs*

Can we assume that Gil's out? His confusion looks pretty genuine to me (however, I haven't played with him much).I think it looks genuine too.

Phantom's explanation for his Legate-vote makes sense. I don't suspect him right now even though I would kind of like to...

I will go to sleep soon, but I'd like to hang around for a little while and argue with the reps a little more... we'll see...

edit: xed with Nog and Gwath, and Kath, and Gil, and Gwath

Mithalwen

11-12-2008, 02:15 PM

Not at all. He has long believed her secret real life identity is this lovely lady (http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/rW/kate-beckinsale-3-0308-lg.jpg)... I simply can't compete.

Nor can I alas... maybe in some parralel universe...:Merisu:

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 02:16 PM

Kath - I think we non-representatives should argue with the representatives and comment their suspicions. We should disagree with them and challenge them, but also tell them if we agree with their suspicions. Defend those they accuse but we think innocent, question their trust of those we find questionable. All in all, we should try to make them see what is good and what is bad in their judgement. Of course, we can also bring up totally new cases for them to consider.
We should simply help them make a good choice.

edit: xed with Mith - why do those corpses keep popping up all the time? ;)

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 02:17 PM

I try to be as objective as possible when reading through Lommy's posts.

Her first post consists mostly of quotes. She suspected werewolves would just try to lay low and vote innocents for reps because "it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway." But what if not? I don't like such generalized assumptions. In my opinion, speculating about things like wolf tactics (or what roles there might be :p) don't lead anywhere. There are so many possibilities. About that the blame cannot be put entirely on Lommy, though, since it was I think phantom who started on the subject.

I don't understand Lommy's negative attitude towards filibustering. Do you really think there are no advantages to it? It might create chaos, yes, but it might also be of some use.

I pretty much agree with Lommy's #89 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=572827&postcount=89).

Etc.

She looked more innocent than not and I agreed with a lot of things she said during the first half of the day. It was only during this half that she started to sound odd.

She expresses concern about Agan-Brinn & Legate-phantom alliances because they are a good way to buddy up with fellow villagers. What's so curious about them? How are they a great way to buddy up? I was voted by Shasta and Brinn but that didn't make me change my mind about either of them (once that they explained their reasons). I don't think voting somebody for your rep is a matter of trust (but I might be in the minority when it comes to this). I think everybody is critical enough not to give their trust to anyone automatically.
If you're worried about wolves voting one another in order to become reps, I can understand that, but what does it matter? It's still so early that we can afford to lose innocents.
In the end I really fail to see what's so strange in them. Your way of thinking is too black-and-white for me.

although the thought doesn't quite cheer me, I think it's even quite probable that one of our newly elected reps is a wolf.
Oh what makes you think so? Why not two? Three? Four? None at all? Why one?

I'm still wondering why Lommy thought Greenie and I had great trust on Brinn. I assume she's going to respond to my earlier questions about it, though.

She made a list of people, concluding that everybody looked more or less innocent, with the exception of maybe phantom.
I'm sorry to say this but a dead phantom is the one I like the best because it's the only one that doesn't give me headache.
Hahaha I noticed this only now. :D

Given that Lommy has pretty much posts compared to most, there's almost alarmingly much chattering instead of actual substance. I'm not saying her posts lack in substance - there just seems to be relatively more other stuff. She brings up points, "we should do like this," or accuses people a bit (cannot trust phantom, morm, &c), but that's about it - mostly her talk seems to concern game mechanics and be rather shallow. I get an empty feeling from her posts.

As for empty posts, her #274 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=573082&postcount=274) is a good example. I dislike the evasive way she responded to my suspicions. What can you make of this?
Then, another thoght... voting someone as a rep is surely a great way of buddying up fellow villagers. That's why the Agan-Brinn and Legate-phantom "alliances" make me wonder... I mean, of course it's just natural too to reward trust with trust and one is subconsciously inclined to trust someone that trusts them and blah blah blah, but such vote exchanges are curious. I'm not sure what to think about them.However, if there's something strange in them, it's the seeming lack of reasoning , but that's a thing that applies to the voting in general, not only these "alliances".
Could be. I have no doubt it will useful to go through all the reasons for the rep votes. But on the other hand, there's lots of other stuff that would be useful too, like for example wolf-hunting...
First she reacts very strongly to a seemingly minor issue, and when I question her about it, she looks like she tried to avoid the question.

More exaggeration: she says neither Greenie nor I spared positive adjectives when trying to justify our votes for Brinn. I called her trustworthy, Greenie good & sensible player and innocentish. To me it doesn't look like either of us was trying to flatter Brinn, least of all me. Then she claims that exaggeration is a part of her style and that she doesn't think she had been exaggerating that far.

I must wonder at this. He's basically voting Nogrod because he'd keep quiet players on their toes, but then, I at least would count Gwath among those very same quiet players. I don't know what to think about that, but I felt the need to point it out.
Now that's a good point. Rather interesting... is there an explanation, Gwathie?
Maybe it's just me but I think you're grasping at straws - both of you. For some reason Greenie pointing out random things makes me feel uncomfortable. And somehow Lommy's reaction was a bit too enthusiastic. I don't know. It bothers me.

The result is that I suspect Lommy and it annoys me because I feel I suspect her just because of the way she is. I also find myself unable to compare this Lommy to any Lommy I know from the previous games. However I wouldn't probably suspect her half as much if not for those carefully self-consciously careless trying-to-say-nothing-or-at-least-sound-normal answers. They vaguely remind me of the pathetic Dueling Wizards wolf me who was trying to avoid suspicion and accusations when they kept piling on me.

I don't know what to do with Lommy.

edit: xed since Nog

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 02:19 PM

Can I ask, what do the representatives actually want us to do? I mean obviously we can't vote but do you want to know who we would vote for if we could to help you make your decisions? Basically - do you want your votes to be based on the feelings of the whole village or are you on your own, votes based on your thoughts/gut feelings depending on which you use?Good that you asked as I was just about to make a short post asking for your opinions as thtree of us will have to vote within an hour or two.

The way I see it - and the way I'm going to act unless shown being totally wrong with my ideas - is that as a representative I will be the sole responsible person concerning my vote and I have no escape whatsoever to hide my vote behind what you people say. That's the position of a representative (you pick us, we pick the lynchee - and stand behind our votes).

But I'm the most willing to hear your views concerning suspicions if not for anything else then just for the fact that this thread is already such a megalomaniac thing that I would never have time to concentrate on all the things said. So you (and I when I'm not a rep) have a duty to bring forth ideas, suspicions, point out inconsistencies, tell about your hunches... and then the rep's make the choice.

So the villagers do their best to help and the representatives make the decisions based on the info they have gathered themselves, the info they have gotten from the villagers and other representatives and at the last stand relying on their own judgement.

And if one is not happy with a representative's judgement one does not vote for that one any more - and has a liberty to encourage others to not vote for that person either.

That's how I see it.

Uhh... X'd with a host of novellas...

McCaber

11-12-2008, 02:20 PM

Just checking in to see what's happened so far in our little government.

Not a lot, apparently. Anything I would say right now has already been seen and commented on by the actual reps, so I hope they know what they're talking about. I mean, we elected them.

And even after this many WW games, I have almost no idea where people are getting so much Day 1 arguments from. Ah well. It gives me things to think about.

Mithalwen

11-12-2008, 02:30 PM

edit: xed with Mith - why do those corpses keep popping up all the time? ;)

We're all dead here sweetie.... besides my ears were burning:cool:

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 02:32 PM

She suspected werewolves would just try to lay low and vote innocents for reps because "it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway." But what if not? I don't like such generalized assumptions. In my opinion, speculating about things like wolf tactics (or what roles there might be) don't lead anywhere. There are so many possibilities. About that the blame cannot be put entirely on Lommy, though, since it was I think phantom who started on the subject.Intentionally or unintentionally, you're misinterpreting and misrepresenting me again. There's truth in what I said, but it was a sort of sarcastic comment, not a well-thought speculation about the game.

I don't understand Lommy's negative attitude towards filibustering. Do you really think there are no advantages to it? It might create chaos, yes, but it might also be of some use.I already replied to that. Please point out just one good use for it and I might change my mind.

She expresses concern about Agan-Brinn & Legate-phantom alliances because they are a good way to buddy up with fellow villagers. What's so curious about them? How are they a great way to buddy up? I think it's always curious when two people express mutual trust in ww game and on Day1. They're a great way to buddy up because one gets a nice warm feeling when someone says they trust them more than anyone else in the village. Really, why do you have to ask these things? Soon you'll probably ask "why does suspicious behaviour indicate someone's a werewolf (or possibly a gifted)?" :rolleyes:

If you're worried about wolves voting one another in order to become reps, I can understand that, but what does it matter? It's still so early that we can afford to lose innocents.I did not say that! I'm more worried of wolves buddying up innocents.

Oh what makes you think so? Why not two? Three? Four? None at all? Why one?Because you're so obviously wolvish while the others are not. But no, seriously, it's just a number that occured to me. I'm not saying there couldn't be more, but like I already said, I think a majority of the wolves would prefer laying low and not getting elected.

The result is that I suspect Lommy and it annoys me because I feel I suspect her just because of the way she is. I also find myself unable to compare this Lommy to any Lommy I know from the previous games. However I wouldn't probably suspect her half as much if not for those carefully self-consciously careless trying-to-say-nothing-or-at-least-sound-normal answers. They vaguely remind me of the pathetic Dueling Wizards wolf me who was trying to avoid suspicion and accusations when they kept piling on me.If it helps you, it annoys me too. ;) And I so much dislike your description of my answers because I feel so utterly wronged because I'M NOT DOING THAT!!!

I don't know what to do with Lommy.Vote me, and get me lynched as an innocent on Day1 for the second time in a row and ensure I will get you lynched at least thrice on Day1 just to settle it... ;)

edit: xed with Nog, Cab and Mith

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 02:33 PM

Kath - I think we non-representatives should argue with the representatives and comment their suspicions. We should disagree with them and challenge them, but also tell them if we agree with their suspicions. Defend those they accuse but we think innocent, question their trust of those we find questionable. All in all, we should try to make them see what is good and what is bad in their judgement.A good add-on to my post about the role of the villagers and the representatives...

There's been awful little of that critical discussion between the villagers and the representatives. But that's also for us reps to blame as I haven't seen too much suspicions made by the reps either (myself included).

Okay. Now I'm going to go back into the thread.

THE Ka

11-12-2008, 02:34 PM

First of all, an apology for being late in the latter process of things. My internet and electricity in general went out before I arrived home from work and I've had to use a friend's computer so far, so I probably will be juggling my time a bit.

Casinos: the red man's revenge.

Indeed, brother, indeed. Probably the best place I've ever worked at, with casino dollars funding my future education too, It's lovely.:)

Okay with that aside, now to give a bit more opinion for Boro88.

I agree with your observations on Nogrod, and if he was a wolf, what he'd likely be inclined to do to have more involvement in his base. If you can't convince in all groups of innocents, it makes more sense after you've been elected to have your hidden wolves sent out to bring in the rabble lot of us. Like I said in an earlier post, even an innocent representative can have a few wolves in their fan base and not even know it. I don't doubt that there is at least one wolf as a rep, but I don't think they would direct their wolves to themselves only.

As for Legate's big turn around, I was a bit unnerved by his reaction in the beginning. I couldn't follow any of his reasoning near the end, until he was on a better footing with the rest of the more vocal voters, and it seemed rather smooth and collected. Though, I wouldn't immediately point my pitchfork and cry 'wolf!' over it, since it reminds me of typical Legate behavior. That's the only thing so far that I disagree a little with Boro88 over. Though, I'd definately watch for him in the future, at least in reaction to less than collected suspicion, where not everyone is rabbling over his behavior.
Immediately putting him up on the block and trying to lend a ledge to indecisive players to chirp in sounds like the beginnings of a wolfish bandwagon.

I don't have anything on Kath. Though, I'm more curious whether she was a safe vote, or seemed safe to others who either trust her for her wisdom or, are trying to suvive by echoing the thoughts of others. I don't distrust Kath, but more of those voting her way. I don't have much playing experience with her either, unfortunately. So far she seems rather innocent, while I need to look back over other's votes for her.

For once Agan, you haven't gotten my immediate suspicion (I think Lobelia and Radagast have come to terms through counciling... Or good tea:p). Usually I always keep a focused eye on her work, but with RL and such and then now I can't see much in the way of obvious or slight wolfy actions. I just don't have a definate judgement for her behavior.

Shasta seems, interesting at least (and comedic, this game needs it for sure...), but either through a lack of previous experience with their playing style or what else, I don't have a distinct suspicion on Shasta, though neither a definate feeling of innocence.

Though, I can agree with this:

Mostly that, at the time, everyone I wanted as a Rep already had two votes and everyone that had one vote was someone I didn't care to trust just yet. And I wanted to give my vote to someone who would use it responsibly, as you've shown you can do, in past games.

This appears reasonable in judgement to myself at least. I at first thought of voting for Ilya for the obvious difference such a possiblity could make amoung more experienced representatives, but I knew it wouldn't help myself much in forming an opinion or definate attachment to this games' conflicts in the end. Thus, I voted for B88, etc. From past experience I've always found that his sense in matters was grounded, even if I didn't agree with them.
In short, as far as voting is concerned, Shasta isn't alarming.

I need to read a bit more, but this is mostly what I have for now. I should have more outlined opinions come later, plus I need to give the computer back to my friend...

~ Ka

Thinlómien

11-12-2008, 02:38 PM

There's been awful little of that critical discussion between the villagers and the representatives. But that's also for us reps to blame as I haven't seen too much suspicions made by the reps either (myself included).Yes that is fair point. I suspect the situation will be better automatically then, but I'd like to see the reps be a bit more active toMorrow before I have to go to sleep. This time, I mostly got to criticise Agan and Boro just a little.

Anyway, argumenting with silly Aganzir is frustrating so I'm going to sleep now.... :)

Vote well, representatives. (You will be held responsible if an innocent is killed. :p;))

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 02:39 PM

Aganzir has been talking quite a bit toDay, so I'm entirely sure what you mean by "a vote likely to disappear." Had Aganzir been relatively quiet prior to the first DL? I can't remember. Maybe I'll check later.
I made two posts during the first half of the day so yeah, you could call it quiet. ;)

Lommy, it's just that your dislike of filibusters seemed so massive it couldn't be honest, as if you had purposefully decided to take/fake that stance.
And no, I honestly cannot see it smartly serving any good purpose. If you can, tell me, and I even might become a filibuster-supporter.
It's a powerful tool for controlling the lynch, and at least I would be ready to go for it if I wanted to save someone I really trusted from the gallows or didn't want to let someone I didn't trust become a rep (given that I would be around at deadline). Also, I don't find the thought that it could help to change somebody's mind impossible, although it's quite unlikely since you cannot make a proper case for/against anyone if you have to post every two minutes. If there were more than one person of the like mind it could work, though.

I was merely pointing out the obvious: that those three have interacted with each other particularily much and stand out because of that and because of their loudness.
Yes, just like it looked like there was at least one wolf involved in the Nilp/Form/Agan brawl back then?

"If someone is filibustering when I want to go to sleep, then I just don't vote"??? And you elected this person to be a rep? That is... outrageous. If someone has been given the trust to become a rep, it is utterly irresponsible to care so little about the vote. *shakes head*
Is it also outrageous if I vote against the wishes of those who voted me? To me it doesn't really make a difference.
You're overreacting again but I can't tell if it's because you're looking for reasons to accuse me or if you're genuinely annoyed with my irresponsibility and outrageousness.

And like I've said before, I doubt a wolf would have made such a 180 degree turn. That would have served no purpose but making him look more suspicious and gather attention.
And see, half the people are saying Legate looks more innocent because of his turn. Why wouldn't a wolf do it?

Simply put, I don't think her behaviour looks like hunting wolves, it looks like hunting supicious behaviour. I cannot phrase it so that it makes any more sense, but I hope at least someone can understand that.
Suspicious Lommy = wolfish Lommy. What's the real difference between suspicious and wolfish, tell me?

Ah, see? Again. She's taking something I've said and tries to make it as suspicious as she can. (I know someone who talks as carelessly as me must be an irresistible target... )
Ooh a counter-attack eh? You shouldn't blame me if you talk carelessly and give a wrong impression.

Maybe I phrased that badly, but I think going through those reasons would be alittle secondary in a village like this where relatively few suspicions have been presented in realtion to the post/ page count.
You did. It took me a while to understand what the whole thing had to do with everything else you had said.

It's the feeling I got and I'm entitled to it, you may have seen it differently, but frankly, I don't care. I cannot trust anything you say anyway. And lastly, to reply you, I think that's a pointless question. Of course you had to vote and give your trust to someone. I only think you gave your trust rather easily to her exactly and phrased it so that it looked rather easy.
It would have made a difference if you had said more clearly that it was the impression you got instead of treating it as a fact that I trusted Brinn so much.

Okay, I know I'm getting heated but this is just too much! You cannot say that to me. You're the one nit-picking and making mountains out of molehills all the time. I have no doubt it's wise to question about everything everyone says but when you do that, you can hardly blame anyone for making small issues sound bigger than they are.
Hahaha :D You made me laugh, love. <3
It's the feeling I got and I'm entitled to it.

edit: xed with everyone since my last post

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 02:53 PM

Intentionally or unintentionally, you're misinterpreting and misrepresenting me again. There's truth in what I said, but it was a sort of sarcastic comment, not a well-thought speculation about the game.
If it begins with a speculation about the game, be it well-thought or not, there's nothing to say the end is sarcastic, and I'm probably too tired to get your sarcasm right now. So if there was a misinterpretation, it was unintentional.

Really, why do you have to ask these things? Soon you'll probably ask "why does suspicious behaviour indicate someone's a werewolf (or possibly a gifted)?"
Quite the contrary. Actually just in your previous post if I remember correctly you were accusing me of trying to find suspicious behaviour instead of wolfish. So why does suspicious behaviour indicate someone's a werewolf? Tell me that. ;)

I did not say that! I'm more worried of wolves buddying up innocents.
I know you didn't, but I guess I automatically assumed that was one of your reasons since to me it seemed the only sensible reason to be suspicious of alliances.

Vote me, and get me lynched as an innocent on Day1 for the second time in a row and ensure I will get you lynched at least thrice on Day1 just to settle it...
And that's just the reason I don't want to do it right away! I suspect you always and am wrong more often than not because you're innocent more often than not.

I think Lobelia and Radagast have come to terms through counciling... Or good tea
Would you like a cup of Darjeeling, dear Radagast? :p

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 02:55 PM

Really? And what would you consider productive (than five pages)? And that says the one who gives two one-liners and then votes.
Touché

And this I call kind of an alibism, of sorts. But okay. Well, I am really raising my eyebrows at this post.

No, it's just me at 00:20 in the morning.

still reading page 7...

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 03:01 PM

I really want to go to sleep in an hour.

Could you Eönwë answer to my questions before that since you are one I'm considering.

I'll go, have something to eat and take a shower. Back soonishly.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 03:15 PM

Another list, to help me get my thoughts in order and to see just who I want to go back and look at since I haven't had time.

Aganzir - No alarms, I'm glad to see she's here today.
Boromir88 - Seems sensible.
Brinniel - Still innocent.
Diamond18 - Where is she?
Eönwë - No read.
Gil-Galad - No read.
Greenie - Not much of a read, but what I've seen of her so far I think innocent.
Gwathagor - No read.
Ilya - No read.
Legate - He's pinging my alarms a bit.
Lommy - She and Agan seem like our brawling innocents.
Kath - Seems helpful, but in the shadows. I'd like to hear more.
McCaber - No read - hardly surprising. Pops in with a comment and pops out again.
mormegil - Seems sensible.
Nerwen - Still innocent.
Nogrod - Probably innocent.
Rune - Seems sensible.
Sally - No read.
Shasta - Obviously a wolf. :p
The Ka - Ka is one I'd like to go back and look at.
the phantom - Obviously a... well... hmm. I think he seems innocent-ish, but you never can tell with this guy.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 03:37 PM

Hmm... And yet again there's a Lommy-Aganzir thing going on. The last time I saw something like this there turned out to be something to it. Let us hope it isn't a waste of time in this village either.

That said I almost wish we could keep them both around and let them continue gunning, for I believe that will help us get a feel for them after the day is done and we can go back and read the posts without time constraints.

At this point I'm thinking I may have to vote more on principle than feeling. I haven't gotten to read as much as I had hoped. Schedules don't always go as planned. :rolleyes:
PS. Now that tp is elected a rep, I feel inclined to vote against a filibuster...
I'm only likely to try a filibuster to save my own life, and as I do not appear to be under threat currently, I would say you don't have to fear a filibuster.
POWEEEEER!!! UN-LIMITED POWEEEEEER!!!!!!!!
I'm enjoying the Star Wars quotes. Keep them coming if you want my continued support.

(to be continued...)

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 03:40 PM

I will expect to get at least 50% of the votes either from Representatives, the wolves or the next time we elect representatives.

So you want to die? Do you just feel too guilty inside? :p

I agree, nonetheless (forgot to include this in my last post) that it's rather peculiar that Aganzir got in this time, when I believe she's only made one post.

Hmm... (It was actually 2, but still). I am going to have to make a list of the quick (in part 1) reps that got voted for seemingly out of nowhere. At least, after I finally finish catching up.

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 03:45 PM

I'm back.

I don't think I will vote Lommy today. It was after all just a few things that made me suspect her in the first place (which is not enough to make me lynch her on day 1 twice in a row), and her replies to me seem genuinely frustrated in an innocentish way. I'm still suspicious of her but I rather give her the benefit of doubt for now.

I wouldn't like to vote Eönwë before he has answered my questions, which I hope he will do before I leave.

Legate might be one option, but I feel uneasy with how many people have expressed suspicion on him since I myself don't feel there are that good reasons for it.

Nothing's changed on my No idea list, so basically those three are my option.

I trust Shasta more now but I have a slightly uncomfortable feeling about him anyway.

edit: xed with phantom and Eönwë

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 03:46 PM

Oh my... I had a few ideas that had made me wonder while I read through the thread earlier toDay but it seems they were ill-gotten. Like that I had a strong impression that after Lommy and I argued for the benefits of choosing a less known person as a representative there was a wave of points out of thin air made to suggest Ilya was also their choice for a rep but they just didn't act that way because she had been already elected. So they were basically going with the flow and trying to look like they thought similarly with the majority. I really had a kind of a parrot-feeling on that and that always sends the alarms ringing with me. But there was no such a large and unfounded thing to be found... except possibly Eonwë who posted a little after my vote.

He considered myself and Greenie as his representative and as a third option he gave... Then there is Ilya, but I don't really know her well enough yet, though she seems innocent enough.I'm not sure if you get what I mean but that does look suspicious. Of all the people around here he picked the three of us (choosing Greenie btw.) but unlike myself or Lommy who had actually argued why Ilya should be chosen (or anyone whom we'd like to see more of and feel somewhat safe with) he just went with the flow with no explanation of why he thought she could be a good choice, like stating something obvious for a choice of a representative with the "Then there is...".

But I'm not too confident on this. It could go either way.

To other things.

At the moment it looks like on the top of things there are:

The row between Aganzir and Lommy. Argumentwise I'd say Agan looks the more innocent one, feelingwise I think Lommy looks the more innocent (she felt genuinely frustrated - although a wolf might feel the frustration as well to be sure). So I just can't avoid the idea that it's two innocents tearing each other apart.

The skirmish between Gil and Shasta was amusing indeed but didn't tell us much. But just looking at the row it would make me feel Gil more innocent (I don't think he would make such a number were he a wolf) and leaves me quite empty-handed with Shasta. Shasta's enthusiasm to get on Gil could be seen as a wolf finally finding a target - and his retreat from it after Gil got personal would be just wise from a wolf as well. The problem is there's a host of "if's" there.

Legate's 180 (how easily catchphrases are born...) and his involvement leave me as baffled. His defence of himself yesterday was genuine-looking to the fullest but the act of turning around with tp looks bad. Agan already made the point that as most of the people who have discussed it have thought a wolf would never do that is a reason to consider it a succesful move by an intelligent wolf as a possible option.

One thing I would like to add here is that we do have a seer around here and the wolves wish to avoid her/his gaze. So doing something spectacularly innocentish-looking would be a decent tactics on that as the seer needs to consider whom s/he wishes to dream each Night. That kind of spectacle might be worth trying as the seer could well think:
"well Legate... hmm... but he wouldn't have done that were he a wolf, right, maybe I have more urgent reasons to check X this Night... I'll check him later when it's less pressing"
And we all know those less pressing times never come...

It seems I have the weightiest reasons to suspect Legate then? But I'm more than reluctant to try him out toDay for the case is more speculative than I'd wish it to be were I to vote someone who could be such an assistance to us.

Taking a short break and coming back with hopefully refreshed thoughts...

EDIT: X'd with a lot...

the phantom

11-12-2008, 03:47 PM

I see Rune showed up late and has started campaigning to be a Rep. Naturally we should kill him for it.

And after reading more from Boro, I've decided to consider him innocent for exactly two days. Just because.

Green creeps me out a little, but maybe it has nothing to do with this game. :p

Aganzir... she's either playing well as a WW or she's innocent. So I'd like to give her a pass for today.
sticking out most on my radar are the phantom becuase of his silliness. I've NEVER seen him like this.
We can't all be grumpy like you, no matter how hard we try.

But seriously, I'm just feeling a little carefree is all. It's Day 1, and when it's over there will be so much to look at and examine! And guess what? I'm off of work tomorrow and Friday, and so I'll be able to examine until my eyes fall out!

Because of this I figure I'll try and not be too serious this first day and just thrash around a bit and then when it's all done I can put the thinking cap on and look things over.

If it would make you feel better I could start being insulting.

Jerk. :p

(to be continued)

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 03:49 PM

Okay, just to let you know, I am here (for already some time) and now I am at the end of page 7, resp. the beginning of page 8. Try not to post too much and I should eventually be able to post here... hopefully soon.

Ilya

11-12-2008, 03:56 PM

I'm here.

Need to go back and read, but to answer Aganzir re: my suspicions of Brinn: first, they weren't and aren't that strong. It was the fact that she got two votes rather early in the day, is all. I want to go back and reread the whole thread again to see if there was anything textual that weirded me out or if it was just nerves. Day 1 had me jittery, especially early on, because a lot of people were bringing up their history of playing with each other and this is my first go. So to see voting as early as it happened, you know, it's the perpetual fear of the kid who doesn't realize she's all alone until everybody else has already partnered up.

Also, the Agan-Lommy thing (do they do this a lot?) doesn't worry me as much as the Gil-Shasta stuff does, or more particularly, Shasta jumping on Gil multiple times. Don't know what to make of it, but it raised more flags.

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 03:56 PM

Also, someone talked about a charismatic wolf representative leading the village...
Now that is quite scary :eek:

You guys should really really slow down. :p I've been reading the thread for a few hours...
Totally agree with you there. And its a few pages later now.

I agree that when playing werewolf one should contribute and post actual substance; nevertheless, I don't like the way people seem to think that flooding the thread with posts is the only right way to play and the closer you get to that the better you are. We can't all be phantoms or Nogrods, nor do we need to be. It's just alarming how this "loud, experienced veteran" type seems to be the "ideal" werewolf player who sort of must be respected just because of that status. No, I'm not saying "Don't respect experienced loudmouths". What I mean is that we should avoid only considering these kind of players as good players or players worth being a rep.
Yeah, the main idea of Werewolf does seem to be forgotten. The main aim (as I see it) is to catch the baddies without being caught yourself. And to have fun. Though being loud does have its advantages, and if you do post substantial posts then it is also very productive, not everyone has enough time. Not everyone is a phantom. Quiet people can still be helpful, and maybe some are quiet because they are thinking, rather than just posting anything that comes into their heard before it even has time to register and form links with other stuff. Once its posted, you tend to stop thinking about the subject (or at least I do) and it becomes frozen like that- set in stone. Then it is harder for your ideas to move, and if they do, you look suspicious. The quiet ones can often be the most sharp.

Lost my train of thought... (there was going to be another paragraph

So I'll end this post...

I won't pull a Legate 180. A new
Downerism has been born!

I'm not quite sure where you, or Shasta got that idea from. Shasta said he got it from Lommy, who originally pointed it out. But, if I recall all Lommy did was really point out the obvious. That us 3 were obviously interacting, but didn't inquire any further

A bit like a "Paper Telephone" round, eh ;)

edit: fixed quote- not even bothering to see who I x-ed with.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 04:02 PM

or more particularly, Shasta jumping on Gil multiple times. Don't know what to make of it, but it raised more flags.

I jump on Gil every time we play together. I'm light, it doesn't hurt him any. :p

the phantom

11-12-2008, 04:02 PM

Ah, so Gil is here. He usually figures out who the WWs are, but he also tends to get himself lynched. Careful laddie. You sit well with me right now due to your location. Strong Bad is awesome.

The Shasta-Gil exchange made me laugh. That's enough for me to keep Shasta around despite not trusting him yet.
*sigh*

Let's get this over with.

++Legate for Rep
This hardly seems to be the attitude of logic and confidence regarding your vote that you presented in post #324. Which one is the reality?
Excellent question. The explanation of post #324 is quite accurate. But note that the logic of picking Legate is due to the fact that he is the one that is left after I rule others out, and also because he voted for me.

In other words, it doesn't stem from trust or anything of the sort, and so I picked him as my Rep because he simply had to be picked- not because of any strong desire to select him.

That attitude comes out in my selection post. The "sigh" is basically saying, "I'm not allowed to pick the only person I trust (me), and really my choice is already made for me, and I have no clue if this is good or bad, but it needs to be done anyway. Oh well. I hope things turn out well."

Yeah, I know- that's an extremely meaningful sigh, isn't it?

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 04:04 PM

Also, the Agan-Lommy thing (do they do this a lot?) doesn't worry me as much as the Gil-Shasta stuff does, or more particularly, Shasta jumping on Gil multiple times. Don't know what to make of it, but it raised more flags.
Yes we do. Far too often, at least if you ask Lommy.

I didn't find the Gil-Shasta quarrel suspicious. I think that's the way Shasta usually is, which doesn't indicate anything, while Gil looked pretty innocentish.

edit: xed with Shasta & phantom

the phantom

11-12-2008, 04:05 PM

I won't pull a Legate 180.
A new Downerism has been born!
I was going to say that! :D

In the future, if someone reverses their stance, it will be "Doing a Legate". Ha ha ha!

Hmm... What's something that I can do to turn my name into something cool like that?

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 04:07 PM

Hmm... What's something that I can do to turn my name into something cool like that?

Hear ye, hear ye! The act of "filibustering" shalll henceforth be known as "doing a Phantom"!

the phantom

11-12-2008, 04:07 PM

By the way, does anyone have a voting summary, including a list of those that did not vote?

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 04:08 PM

Hmm... What's something that I can do to turn my name into something cool like that?
You could for example deliberately help the wolves to win... Just an idea.

Not in this game of course.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 04:08 PM

Hear ye, hear ye! The act of "filibustering" shalll henceforth be known as "doing a Phantom"!
*cries*
My life now has meaning! I have something named after me.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 04:10 PM

You could for example deliberately help the wolves to win... Just an idea.

Not in this game of course.
I already promised I'd help you.

But why must I wait. Who knows when you'll be a WW again. ;)

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 04:11 PM

I already promised I'd help you.

But why must I wait. Who knows when you'll be a WW again. ;)
Maybe you should put some pressure on the mods?

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 04:16 PM

I'm here and will read through what I've missed.

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 04:18 PM

Eönwë, why did you think Shasta would be voted for a rep? What were these previous game experiences you were talking about? I'm curious. He always seems to be right (well not about me, but generally). Now people can just latch onto him if they think he's innocent and hope he still has his "psychic powers". Of course, this also allows WW to "latch onto him" and not look suspicious.

I fail to see where this came from (apart from "out of the blue"). What was the reason for saying that? Why would Shasta be voted for a rep? Why would Shasta vote badly on purpose if he was a wolf? What does it actually mean to "vote badly"?
Same idea. He seems to have gained a lot of trust lately (Though not in this game, strangely enough- but I didn't know that at the time!) When I said vote badly, I meant that it is bad for the village.

Why did Nog look maybe too helpful?
Well, he seemed to me a little cautious and not trying to get on anyone's bad side, as well as making points that seem good.

And also, why did you choose these people since as far as I remember you hadn't mentioned any of them earlier. Especially I'm curious about Ilya. I don't think I really had mentioned anyone so far as a possible candidate. By the time I'd finished catching up I barely had time to post anything, let alone an accurate representation of what I thought of everybody. And Ilya just seemed like an innocent-ish person that time, with nothing making her suspicious in my eyes.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 04:18 PM

Maybe you should put some pressure on the mods?
I think I've already used all of my credit with them buying myself invincibility. Yeah- if I'm lynched or targeted at night nothing happens. The Moddesses thought it might be unfair, but they agreed to it in the end because it was historic. And they were drunk.

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 04:22 PM

I'm one of those who were a bit uneasy with Gwath's vote for me as a representative. The contraditory nature of that vote was clear indeed. And it could be looked from the devil's advocate viewpoint quite easily and deemed evil.

Like: "I know he tends to go after the submarines in the early Days so why not vote him to be a rep and say that the vote is for keeping an eye to the non-posters" - at the same time rubbing me the right way to make me choose someone else from the quiet-ones instead. So if he thought I was going after the more silent people anyway (and there was a good chance I was going to be voted as a rep anyhow looking at the posts before that point of the game) what would have been a better way to avoid my eye (well, it was a bad way if that was what was intended as I noticed it... a good try? :rolleyes:)?

But I have to give Gwath credit for his question for tp. And I'm still a bit bothered about phantom's first Day "maybe I requested to be an ordo with my special relationship to Fea" -stuff. I don't think he would make that kind of thing his main defence. Not at all. He has much more brains than that. But what kind of worries me is that he slipped that in anyway. I mean jokes are jokes and playing it is playing it, but that looks more like a slip (not the freudian one but a slip when one has entertained possible defences and in the rush of gaming posts one that is not too good - and obviously those who need to think about this game via thinking possible defences in advance are the wolves...) than either of the former.

But yet again I seem to be reaching a dead end. It's too little to vote for tp - like what I was suspecting with Legate was too little to vote for him.

This is a crazy village! Why don't you just be nice and look a bit more suspicious?

Ilya

11-12-2008, 04:28 PM

Ok, so, someone wanted a summary:

The Reprehensible Representatives
Brinn...voted for Aganzir
Phantom...voted for Legate
Boro...voted for tp
Ilya...voted for Boro
Nogrod...voted for Ilya
Aganzir...voted for Brinn
Legate...voted for tp

The Crooked Constituents
Sally...voted for Legate
Kath...voted for Lommy
The Ka...voted for Boro
Morm...voted for Nogrod
Eonwe...voted for Greenie
Gwath...voted for Nogrod
Shasta...voted for Aganzir
Greenie...voted for Brinn
Lommy...voted for Ilya

The Notorious Nonvoters
Diamond
Gil
McCabber
Nerwen
Rune

Lemony Snicket, eat your heart out.

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 04:28 PM

we can afford to let a few ordos die if it helps us to find the wolves.
Elitist!

I'll probably go soon...

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 04:31 PM

He always seems to be right (well not about me, but generally). Now people can just latch onto him if they think he's innocent and hope he still has his "psychic powers". Of course, this also allows WW to "latch onto him" and not look suspicious.
I think that's too simple. I'm not questioning Shasta's psychic powers but it's maybe a bit too much said that "he always seems to be right". :p
It looks as if you were trying to buddy up with him.

Well, he seemed to me a little cautious and not trying to get on anyone's bad side, as well as making points that seem good.
I'm not sure I agree - usually Nog's points are more or less good in spite of his role.

I think I've already used all of my credit with them buying myself invincibility. Yeah- if I'm lynched or targeted at night nothing happens. The Moddesses thought it might be unfair, but they agreed to it in the end because it was historic. And they were drunk.
Poor you. I can't think of any alternative but that you keep playing and hope I get to be a wolf some game.

edit: xed with Ilya & Eönwë. Call me elitist if you wish, but I include myself in the few ordos we can afford to lose. Fair enough. ;)

Aganzir

11-12-2008, 04:46 PM

Huh my Downs just stopped working for a while.

I'll go now, and Shasta & Brinn will vote for

++Lynch Legate

Because I couldn't decide between him and Eönwë and his way of posting annoys me more. This means that Eönwë has just been saved from receiving two votes and he could thank me by posting a detailed list of his suspicions tomorrow. :p

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 04:48 PM

It's getting just too late once again... so I try to do this quickly.

I have underlined those I will not vote for either thinking them innocent-looking enough or to be too valuable to us if innocents as to lynch them on too weak grounds this early...

Aganzir - argues innocentishly
Boromir88 - looks and feels genuine thus far
Brinniel - looks and feels genuine thus far
Diamond18 - her wish to be a rep and the following inattention to the game speak for innocence although the latter doesn't speak well of her gamer-morale...
Eönwë - a hard one for me everytime I play with him: could go either way
Gil-Galad - the enigma who is more often innocent than not - and gets things right more often than has been granted the honour of
Greenie - the sneaky one, my daughter... I never figure her out and thence am afraid everytime
Gwathagor - could be a wolf, could not be...
Ilya - looks and feels genuine thus far
Legate - I'm a bit worries of that possible pre-planned action but not enough to vote him toDay
Lommy - feels innocentish
Kath - she's not suspecting me! there must be something wrong in there... or then not; I'm slightly persuaded to wait and see
McCaber - the ultimate submarine: manages to post without no one having a read on him
mormegil - I do not like his recurring points on tp being very different this time...
Nerwen - looks and feels genuine thus far, although I'd love to see her post more
Rune - the enthusiasm of getting to be a representative speaks on his behalf - and the general feeling I get is more that of an ordo
Sally - very hard nut to crack but maybe more innocentish because of the level of her light-heartedness (she was a bit more focused the last time she was a wolf)
Shasta - could be a wolf, could not be...
The Ka - she's always hard for me to read and I tend to suspect her more than not
the phantom - could be a wolf, could not be...

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 04:58 PM

Who is left? Legate. And the fact that he had given his vote to me made him an even more obvious choice.
Be ashamed! Bribe-taker!

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 04:58 PM

What case? Where?
It was a list. :p~Agan
This frightens me; Agan in 276:
Guilty
Lommy. I know I tend to suspect her, especially on the first days. And to me she almost always seems overreactive and suspicious. But it happening always is not an excuse for me to put her in the Neither cathegory so she's happily here again.
Then you proceed to point out all the strange comments/things about Lommy.

Last time this struck a chord with me when Mac (too bad I never had the spine to vote for him) brought suspicions up about Brinn; Brinn referred to it as a "case," and Mac protested; trying to say Brinn over-reacted to a couple of his thoughtful musings. It was odd because the bottom-line is it was a "case" against Brinn. Mac was definitely stretching, but the reaction of "Woah, Brinn! I didn't make a case against you," was what stuck out. It was a case. Period. Mac said Brinn looked suspicious and proceeded to quote her several times to make his case.

Agan, you made a case against Lommy. Have the spine to admit it. You listed Lommy as guilty and have gone after her, that's a case. Don't try to play it off like you really didn't mean anything by quoting Lommy repeatedly, post after post, and play it off like Lommy is being over-defensive.

And now you're backing off, after a couple people say Lommy is looking genuinely frustrated (i.e. makes her look innocent)? Trying to seperate yourself from someone you wanted to get lynched?

Edit: crossed with everything since Agan's post 373

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 05:01 PM

All right. So, now, let me post on what had happened here meanwhile... One warning. There are things I say during the course of the post, which are commenting on the current situation as I read the thread, post by post, page by page. To get the completely updated stance of mine towards something, you have to read it all to the end. So, be careful before ripping some quotes of what I say here out of context. Some of the things I say (namely for example about Aganzir) are relativised later (though I am not deleting the original ones). You can at least see how my thoughts went.

I think we can make the obvious conclusion that we should not vote him as a representative in future - just to ensure his own sanity, health and safety, right? ;)
No, no, no, why? Lommy, Nerwen is trying to turn you against me! Join me and together we may rule the galaxy... okay, okay, that will be certainly a wrong way to go ;)

Also, could you explain what you actually mean by "large front of support". I am aware that Brinn was considered innocent by a few people at the early stages, but I wouldn't call it a large front yet.
For me, voting for a representative by somebody who had hardly said anything at all is a large front. Thinking relatively here.

Part of the reason I chose you was because you unusually quiet; I was hoping that by putting you in a position of power I could draw you out more and get a better read of you early in the game.
Now, now. What the Republic of a nonsense is that? Agan posted two posts which contained about nothing, and she said plainly there that she posts little because she does not have time. She also said she won't probably have much time tomorrow. So, if you voted her to be a Rep in order to see her posting more - you are doing something illogical, aren't you? If you ever read her posts, for that's the only thing I could think of as logical reason for that. When you want to talk to somebody, and he tells you he is in work uninterruptedly since 8 AM till 11 AM, are you going to invite him for a coffee at 10 AM, hoping that it will give you a chance to talk to him? Does it make sense? Really, I don't know what to think of what you say. You make no sense at all.

I agree that a situation with only "generally trusted veterans" as reps is not nice, but for a different reason. I think it is not a favourable situation because, quoting Lommy,That I think is a real problem, not only because it enables quiet wolves to slip by, but also because it will lead to a not-so-enjoyable and not-so-sporty game.
Not-so-sporty! We have elected candidates, for Mod's sake. This is high politics. The people nominate elite leaders from their midst. The point of the Representatives position is to discard the endless debates of the people! Knowledge, Rule, Order: How many villages have ended on total chaos, unable to pick a Wolf, because of the weak and idle who have more hindered than helped the voting process? No time to be sporty! People can at last breathe freely, for they don't have to rely on the chaos of the masses! Let the wise, the responsible rule! People will realise that what the Representatives do is for their best! And if they don't, let us make them realise! Aiiiiiiiieeeeee!!!

One more thing - like Agan, I don't quite understand where these phrases like "great trust" and "large front of support" come from. I never said I had great trust in Brinniel - I think I said that she looks innocentish and is a sensible player or something along those lines. Don't know, but it looks like someone is trying to make small issues into big ones.
Again, cf. above - and I would say making somebody a Rep is a big deal just for itself. Remember that we have some seven or how many Reps who make the decisions for everybody. One seventh of the nation going for one party would be a large enough front of supporters for me (some 15% of the population). I was referring to the fact that a person was elected, not to the supporters themselves being many, but simply being enough to make this person a Rep.

To Legate, why in Eru's name did you make the phantom your rep?
Well, perhaps you can pick it up together from my posts late yesterday before I went to sleep (i.e. before I voted him). But simply, by ellimination process, as I wanted one of the "strong" (read: independant etc., like we've been talking all the beginning of the game) players, there was nobody better to pick, and there was in the end Nogrod or him. And since Nog already had one vote, I decided to leave it more open - as I was assuming somebody would vote Nog too - which indeed somebody did, and I think even at about the same time when I cast my vote for tp. So, I wanted also rather bigger spread of people, as I was afraid that there would be just Nog of the people to whom I would really give my trust. I didn't want the representative board made of Brinniels whose election seemed as unclear to me as her profile this far, and Ilyas whom I don't know at all yet, etc. And still I was more inclined to vote somebody else rather than just to give Nog a vote, and presuming that more people would vote him, make him a Rep with more vote weight. And, I was fighting against it hard late in the Day, but I actually found out I started to like the phantom (don't let him read this, though), and like I said, of all people on the list (you can, I believe, look up somewhere some list of people whom I have considered voting for in the end), he seemed like the "man in his place" if he was elected.

I found only one in my post. I can't speak for Greenie but I wouldn't call her use of positive adjectives great trust, either. If we have to vote early and you know it, why on earth are you telling us later that we trusted her way too much given how much she had posted?
I find it worth noticing too that the first votes went to the same person, but I wouldn't call it great trust.
Seems to me catching upon very minor things. Gah.

Mostly that, at the time, everyone I wanted as a Rep already had two votes and everyone that had one vote was someone I didn't care to trust just yet. And I wanted to give my vote to someone who would use it responsibly, as you've shown you can do, in past games.
This actually looks innocent.

"Mountain out of a molehill" much? And what do you mean by "not liking some of my posts"?
I don't know. Some of them. I need to look at them again, what in particular it was.

******An inner note*******
GREENIE seems even more innocent than before now, especially because of her "defense" of Lommy, which seemed logical. However, her - how was it? "thank you for clearing it up" which she said so friendly to everybody, first I believe Shasta and then to Agan (both page 8) seem a bit too friendly and nice. But in general, nothing wrong with her.

It's not in vain that democracy has been called the most civil form of government!
You are wrong, Nogrod. Democracy is outdated. Now, let us... okay, okay, I am not going to start on that again ;)

These suspicions seem fabricated to me. Which posts in particular didn't you like, and why?
Aganzir has been talking quite a bit toDay, so I'm entirely sure what you mean by "a vote likely to disappear." Had Aganzir been relatively quiet prior to the first DL? I can't remember. Maybe I'll check later.
(I am quoting the larger part of the post just for I have something to say to the other part of it as well, however, the first line is the main I am replying to - it refers to my words about Shasta having some posts I don't like.) Okay, since you are the second one to ask this, I am going to look them up right after I post this post. (And as for Aganzir, check. She said she's not going to be around, which was repeated by her, by me, whatever, just look up even this very post.)
BTW - related - there are moments when I think (no offense, Gwath) that some people just are not reading. When I want to comment on person A commenting on person B, first I should see to it that I also know what was the thing person B said (to which person A was replying). Gosh.

Can I ask, what do the representatives actually want us to do? I mean obviously we can't vote but do you want to know who we would vote for if we could to help you make your decisions? Basically - do you want your votes to be based on the feelings of the whole village or are you on your own, votes based on your thoughts/gut feelings depending on which you use? It would just be nice to get an idea of how this is going to work.
For me, dear Kath, my authoritarian choice is definite. This game's system simply asks for using it the way that somebody elects me, and then I vote according to my own best choices. Forget listening to voters after I have been nominated. It is weak. This is not a People's Republic. This is Spar--- er, sorry, that's from somewhere different. A bit more seriously: simply put, I am going to vote for the person I see as the most suspicious. However still, of course it is helpful if people post their suspect lists or such, first because they can help anyway during the game, and second because indeed, who knows, perhaps one may get some idea from them which he wouldn't have thought of himself. But, just do not expect however, that when five of you say that you want to lynch person X, I am going to do it just because the popular vote wants it. No, you have picked your representatives, and now you have them. It is upon them. THE POWER IS NO LONGER IN YOUR HANDS, PEOPLE!!! Only during the Rep-election.

Which is exactly how this Republic works.

******INNER WHATEVER #2 - EXPRESSING SOME GENERAL THOUGHTS ON SOME MATTERS*******
Now if you read Lommy's post 333 there are exactly the answers I would have expected there. I am not sure what was that Agan had problem with, for this is how I understood it. A wolf-agan trying to shed bad light on Lommy? But that would surprise me, as I suppose Agan more clever than to use such weak grounds to raise suspicion for people.

As for the Lommy and Shasta questioning itself, when it comes to the "triangle", I don't see anything weird on Lommy, but Shasta seems to me like "jumping on a train" (a bandwagon, one might say, to raise the proper connotations), misunderstanding Lommy and trying to set it up as suspicion (resp. to try to continue on a bandwagon of suspicion, which, actually, from Lommy's part wasn't really a suspicion but merely a statement).

More exaggeration: she says neither Greenie nor I spared positive adjectives when trying to justify our votes for Brinn. I called her trustworthy, Greenie good & sensible player and innocentish. To me it doesn't look like either of us was trying to flatter Brinn, least of all me. Then she claims that exaggeration is a part of her style and that she doesn't think she had been exaggerating that far.
Exaggeration! How can you build a case upon that? Really, this seems like really building up a case out of nothing. In Czech we say "sucking it out of your finger", I am not sure of any good equivalent. Simply, making it up out of nothing.

(NOTE OF MYSELF AS POSTER: And I became inclined to ignore the rest of their discussion, for they became just silly, both of them, posting all over the place. I will probably read it later and not now, for it turned into a too much personal issue between the two, of accusing one and the other here and back again. Now just for the general things.)

I'm enjoying the Star Wars quotes. Keep them coming if you want my continued support.
You shouldn't've said that, but sure I would, probably, even without you saying it.

I don't think I will vote Lommy today. It was after all just a few things that made me suspect her in the first place (which is not enough to make me lynch her on day 1 twice in a row), and her replies to me seem genuinely frustrated in an innocentish way. I'm still suspicious of her but I rather give her the benefit of doubt for now.
So that's how the heated Lommy-Agan exchange ends for now: the end is better though than how I have seen it all the time. If it's genuine and not just backing away, good. I would certainly like to hope so.

So, that is it for now. Now I only hope I did not x-post with too many people.

Hello, Republic!

EDIT: So, x-ed only since some two or so posts from the bottom of page 9. So, no Hello Republic for me yet. *off to read* - but back sooner than before, I hope. (Perhaps it will delay people to read my post now, so they won't post meanwhile too much...)

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 05:03 PM

After adding Gil to my "not going to vote" -underlinings up there I realised there was a general flaw in there indeed.

So I'll just pick the rest (the not underlined) here and try to elaborate...

Those I have no grounds for voting at the moment...

Gil-Galad - the enigma who is more often innocent than not - and gets things right more often than has been granted the honour of
Greenie - the sneaky one, my daughter... I never figure her out and thence am afraid everytime
Sally - very hard nut to crack but maybe more innocentish because of the level of her light-heartedness (she was a bit more focused the last time she was a wolf)
The Ka - she's always hard for me to read and I tend to suspect her more than not

Which then leaves me with:

Eönwë - a hard one for me everytime I play with him: could go either way
Gwathagor - could be a wolf, could not be...
McCaber - the ultimate submarine: manages to post without no one having a read on him
mormegil - I do not like his recurring points on tp being very different this time...
Shasta - could be a wolf, could not be...

Hah, Gwath and morm... I'll promise this will not become a recurring trait that I will suspect the most those who vote for me as a representative... :)

I need to think of a balanced verdict between suspicion and my hope of getting some valuable input to the village if the one turns out innocent...

*calculating...*

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 05:09 PM

I haven't even read all of your post yet Legate but this cries for spelling it out aloud...

If tp says that if you keep on making that Star Wars stuff he'll be backing you... what do you do? You keep on with it in a striking manner.

That looks suspicious indeed... I need to make the choice in something like fifteen minutes (1.30AM here, waking up call at 6.30) and you didn't make it easier.

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 05:15 PM

In the future, if someone reverses their stance, it will be "Doing a Legate". Ha ha ha!
I am honoured.

Eönwë's last post seems somewhat more genuine, however, one would except a wolf to retailate and be more careful if exposed...

I haven't even read all of your post yet Legate but this cries for spelling it out aloud...

If tp says that if you keep on making that Star Wars stuff he'll be backing you... what do you do? You keep on with it in a striking manner.
Well, if it calms you a little, I wrote that far earlier than I even got to the point where phantom says that... FAR before I got to that point. However anyway, yes, the post is somewhere full of nonsensish rant, you may skip it (SW, republic at one or two points later) and read the actual substance. But bear in mind that I simply could not not post to what's been said during half the Day here, and I said practically all I'd have said had I been here...

Okay, now off to check those Shasta-posts like I promised.

And, for reference, right now I am inclining to vote some Eönwë, most probably.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 05:18 PM

And I'm still a bit bothered about phantom's first Day "maybe I requested to be an ordo with my special relationship to Fea" -stuff.
I already answered that.

Di is the one that dared to go into the realm of Moderator bias based upon RL circumstances. I merely countered by planting an alternative version. I agreed with whoever it was (Lommy I believe) that attempting to claim such a thing would be unsporting. That's why I worded it the way that I did.

I'm hoping that answers any doubts you have about it.

mormegil

11-12-2008, 05:22 PM

Bah! I'm terribly sorry at how busy I've been. I feel fairly negligent and I'm sorry. I'm to the start of page nine and I've briefly skimmed the rest. So more impressions is that Agan seems very reasonable and this leads me to think she is innocent. Gil is back, what would a wolfish Gil act like? I doubt it is the case but I'm curious to see how he would behave...has he ever been one before? Shasta is a rapid fire poster, a lot of little things said but nothing overly profound, not that it's expected on Day 1 but when there are so many posts from one person it makes me take notice.

Lots of people are talking about Eonwe but honestly I haven't gotten a feel one way or another, I guess I've kind of ignored him in the mass of other posts.

Lommy and Legate...so help me if I see another novel of a post from either one of you I may string you up myself:eek:. Joking aside, Legate still seems off to me, it feels contrived.

The Phantom seems a bit more normal than earlier but that could mean anything. I still think him suspect because of the behavior changes I've seen.

Nog seems to suspect me for talking about phantom...odd he repeats this of me a few times and suspects me for doing something similar.:rolleyes:

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 05:22 PM

I need to go to sleep now.

I will vote for

++ Gwath

(I don't think these votes had to be made in red... wasn't it only the rep-votes? Okay, to be sure...)

++ Gwath

Because I think it is a plausible interpretation of Gwath's odd grounds for voting - and he knew what he was bargaining for... Why else would he have formulated his vote for me to be a rep in that way being himself obviously one of the group he wished me to target?

Also. Agan already voted for Legate and I can't be around to hear his answers. Giving him a two vote lead would be just a bit too risky if he's an innocent.

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 05:25 PM

So I finally managed to finish reading all the posts.

Good Night, Republic!

Nogrod

11-12-2008, 05:26 PM

Legate, tp & morm - fair enough points, in different ways.

I'm off now... Hoping to see you toMorrow.

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 05:28 PM

Shasta - "posts which I do not like" explanation

Okay, I don't recall anymore if I had in mind really more posts, perhaps I said posts and meant just this one post. Simply, the thing you said shortly before I left yesterday. And most likely, the point concerned was nothing more and nothing less than the actual issue which has been talked around here several times over again:

Legate also made a list. What's odd is that he seems to be on very good terms with both Boromir and Phantom... a bit flip-floppy on Phantom, actually, based on his earlier attitude. I think Lommy's right about a possible Boro-Phantom-Legate triangle, but to what purpose? Surely they're not all wolves... are they?

So that was it. You can look up at my post (the long one - you can't overlook it) the "INNER WHATEVER #2" part, where I speak already a bit about the subject. So, it is simply that I thought Shasta is making there a cause out of something which seemed to me not to be a case in the first place (i.e. Lommy speaking about me, Boro and Phantom interacting and Shasta took it as some kind of possible coalition of ours or what). Cf. with the above.

Going, most likely, to post a list about my current view of players; but keep any possible reactions on me or questions coming while I am here. (I am not going to stay around for that long. I have to sleep too.)

EDIT: x-ed with Morm and further

the phantom

11-12-2008, 05:33 PM

Nog, before you go- your vote. It's not in the proper format, so I'm not certain it will be counted.

Figured you'd want to know.

Eönwë

11-12-2008, 05:36 PM

Nog, before you go- your vote. It's not in the proper format, so I'm not certain it will be counted.

Figured you'd want to know.

Yeah, I think you have to add the word lynch before the name of the person.

I don't know why I'm still here. G'night!

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 05:37 PM

As long as the votes are bright red and it's clear what they're for, format's pretty much negotiable.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 05:37 PM

Legate also made a list. What's odd is that he seems to be on very good terms with both Boromir and Phantom... a bit flip-floppy on Phantom, actually, based on his earlier attitude. I think Lommy's right about a possible Boro-Phantom-Legate triangle, but to what purpose? Surely they're not all wolves... are they?

So that was it. You can look up at my post (the long one - you can't overlook it) the "INNER WHATEVER #2" part, where I speak already a bit about the subject. So, it is simply that I thought Shasta is making there a cause out of something which seemed to me not to be a case in the first place (i.e. Lommy speaking about me, Boro and Phantom interacting and Shasta took it as some kind of possible coalition of ours or what). Cf. with the above.

I thought I already explained that....? :confused:

Edit: X'ed with Eonwe and FeaMod.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 05:44 PM

morm- are you going to be around more often on Day 2?

the phantom

11-12-2008, 05:48 PM

Agan for Legate
Nog for Gwath

Still to vote-

Boro
Brinniel
Ilya
Legate
the phantom

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 05:49 PM

Aganzir - I said something about her above. Summa summarum: there are a few things that make me worried about her, like her going after Lommy on some absolutely nonsensish grounds. Then, on some other issues she had reasonable points, like about Eönwë, but bah, we all know the Agan-wolf. Which however is also the things which baffles me with her suspicion of Lommy: we all know the Agan-wolf. She won't make so simpleton-ish accusations, from my point of view. Also, I am not sure if her vote for me has much logical grouds. Well, what. Watching.

Boromir88 - this far, keeping the profile I already spoke about before (see some of my earlier lists). Innocent-like. (The only thing that could bother would be that his behavior pattern seems to be all the same and unchanging, thus, what it is a role he suited himself into? But that's just a question.)

Brinniel - I said that earlier, the main issue with her now is the vote for Agan, which she did not explain at least to me at all. A reasoning that makes no sense?

Diamond18 - I believe had not posted since my last list.

Eönwë - actually not getting better (after pondering everything) since what I last said about him. There is this kind-of-innocent thing I said about his last post, but still, the suspicion is stronger than this.

Gil-Galad - now here is he, and, Gil, sorry for saying that, that's by no means pejorative but simply stating the truth, confused as ever. I am not making much of his interaction with Shasta, as it does not seem to have any real substance in it.

Greenie - as I said in my Horribly Long Post (TM) above, seeming innocent, maybe only a bit too innocent? Too nice, calm, agreeing? Need to see more.

Gwathagor - I don't still have much to say about him. I cannot say guilty nor innocent about him, for any much reason.

Ilya - so far so good

Legate - would better just shut up and not say any SW quotes any more, or he'll become a bantha poodoo.

Lommy - still looking rather innocent. Really, seeming normal. Nothing suspicous-worthy, whatever others say.

Kath - I somehow feel like starting to get a read on her. Feeling better about her.

McCaber - no real change on opinion since last time.

mormegil - also not much real change, seems like an okay guy with nothing sinister coming through.

Nerwen - starts to seem a bit like her usual self. (Though still would expect her to post more, but that's a side issue.)

Nogrod - lately I started to wonder a bit, whether he is not a wolf in disguise for a serious gentleman after all; however, as I have no real grounds for suspicion, just the feeling and sometimes kind of jerks from his behavior, nothing to raise against him for now.

Rune - so here, at least, too! And seems pretty genuine. Nothing too bad.

Sally - little to add since last visit. Still seeming fine.

Shasta - my suspicions on him may have been kind of made less sharp by the course of time, but still, keeping an eye on him.

The Ka - still could be this nice visitor who comes, cleans her shoes and hangs her hat by the door, drinks a cup of tea and leaves again (with the hat, of course). But I can't say A nor B about her either.

And last of all my favourite, the phantom, on whom I still hold the opinion, at least this far, that he does not strike me as sinister. Not yet, at least... ;)

Well, so that's it. We shall see who crossposted with me, and maybe also possibly vote, for I don't wish to hang around for too long, but it looks like this is a good place to end as any... looks like Eönwë for me right now.

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 05:52 PM

I thought I already explained that....? :confused:

But I do not wish YOU to explain to me :D I AM explaining to YOU here and to Gwath, who questioned about what were the "posts I found bad" by you (read in my long post above, you asked me about that). This is a recourse to something that happened almost 24 hours ago :D

Gwathagor

11-12-2008, 06:10 PM

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-12-2008, 06:19 PM

Okay. This is most probably the end for me.

My vote, like I said:

++ Lynch Eönwë

And that's it.

Well, nothing more to add for now. I hope to see you all toMorrow.

Hmm, and... oh, of course...

May the Force Be With You. Always.

(Sounds very appropriate from a Sith Lord, does it? ;) )

the phantom

11-12-2008, 06:21 PM

I would make a list but I think it would be rather pointless seeing as all my opinions will be based upon what I consider a below average amount of thought and reading (for me). And in addition my list will completely change during the Night most likely as that will be when I am able to spend some time on this village. And so the list wouldn't even begin to be a starting point for anything.

Right now I think my best course of action is to decide on a few people that I don't want to vote for. That does not mean that I think they are innocent (though I am leaning that way on a couple of them), but possibly that I view them as someone that I will form an opinion on by tomorrow and so I see no point in offing them now.

I would say that Nogrod, Lommy, Agan, Legate, Kath, Gil, morm, Gwath, Sally, Green, Brin, Eonwe, and Boro are extremely safe from my vote at this time.

Are there WWs among them? Heh- odds certainly say yes. But it's Day 1, so I'm not terribly concerned.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 06:24 PM

Agan for Legate
Nog for Gwath
Legate for Eonwe

Still to vote-

Boro
Brinniel
Ilya
the phantom

Ilya- thanks for the voting summary earlier.

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 06:26 PM

I would say that Nogrod, Lommy, Agan, Legate, Kath, Gil, morm, Gwath, Sally, Green, Brin, Eonwe, and Boro are extremely safe from my vote at this time.

Just vote me, Phantom, we both know you want to. :p

the phantom

11-12-2008, 06:29 PM

I would like to, Shasta, but I think I should hold off for at least one day in honor of your performance the last time I played.

Ilya

11-12-2008, 06:30 PM

Ok, so, thusfar:

Eonwe, Gwath, and Legate all have 1 vote.

Phantom, Boro, Brinn and I still have to vote.

I'm going to reread Legate's uber-post before I put together another list, but I'm not ready to commit a vote to any of the people who already have one. By the way, you want to lobby to this rep, kids? No need to quote, just bear in mind that brevity is the soul of wit. Or abridge Anna Karenina. Either works.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 06:30 PM

Thank you Ilya, for the voting summary.

Some points of interest...

-All 7 representatives cast a vote for a current representative, to be there rep.

That pattern makes sense, especially the last three votes that occured at the end (from Brinn, the phantom, and me). I didn't think we needed to go in with a set plan of how many reps, but at the end of yesterday with only 4 chosen reps with a total of 8 votes, that seemed too small. Both Brinn and the phantom handled the first DL orderly, and we managed to get a good representation, without cross-voting chaos. That makes Brinn and the phantom look even more innocent than I previously thought them to be.

-the phantom is the only representative who represents 2 current representatives (Legate and myself). - Not sure if that's much of a point, but maybe it boosts the phantom's ego.

-From the looks of it, we could very well lynch a representative. Agan voted for Legate. I'm considering a vote for either Legate, or ironically Agan.

I guess the question is, would it be a wise choice to lynch a representative? I agree with Lommy's generalization that there is at least one wolf amongst the reps, simply going by statistics that is actually a certainty. However, is that a route we want to take?

Alright, so I hope to hear more from Ilya, and I'm going to take a look at some of the non-reps like Gwath and Kath.

Edit: crossed with every one since the very last post on Page 10 - Shasta's.

mormegil

11-12-2008, 06:32 PM

morm- are you going to be around more often on Day 2?

I had planned on being around more on Day 1 but there was the meeting I forgot about plus work is killing me now. I'm not sure when but I am likely to have a funeral for my uncle in the next few days. He's in the hosptial and will likely pass away tonight. I was not overly close to him but I will still be attending any services when they are planned.

Now, I just got home from work and after a little dinner I hope to catch up and post a bit more.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 06:33 PM

It is time for me to leave for my evening engagement, but I'll be back well before the deadline.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 06:45 PM

Eonwe, Gwath, and Legate all have 1 vote.~Ilya
whoops, I missed Legate's vote for Eonwe, I still thought only 2 reps voted.

Ilya

11-12-2008, 06:57 PM

-From the looks of it, we could very well lynch a representative. Agan voted for Legate. I'm considering a vote for either Legate, or ironically Agan.

I guess the question is, would it be a wise choice to lynch a representative? I agree with Lommy's generalization that there is at least one wolf amongst the reps, simply going by statistics that is actually a certainty. However, is that a route we want to take?

Alright, so I hope to hear more from Ilya
I hope to oblige.

It would set a precedent, but honestly one I'm not alarmed about, because, as you say, it's very likely that there's a wolf among the reps. It counters my initial fear that wolves could gain immunity simply by becoming reps. The way I've approached repping is that I should vote for whoever I'm most suspicious of, period. It doesn't say much about our village's body politic if reps are lynching each other, but it also doesn't create another subdivision among the villagers.

Right now I think Legate's posting is very lengthy damage control, and Eonwe hasn't given me enough to make me suspicious enough to cast a vote, nor has Gwath, and the argument for voting for him seemed a bit Smerdyakov-like, since I seem to be going with the Russians today. Agan backed off of Lommy in a way that parroted what a lot of other people said. Dunno what I think about that.

mormegil

11-12-2008, 07:06 PM

(And again, I'm tired, so if I misunderstand your post in some way please accept my apologies.)

In short, good thoughts. Now what do you think about wolves?

These two parts caught my eye from Sally...I'm starting to read and will post as I go along. It is always odd when people apologize in advance, it as though they want to set it up that when questioned on something they can point it out that they have a reason for it.

The last line struck me as being odd just in the context of the sentence.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 07:17 PM

McCaber, pops-in, pops-out, says a couple things and leaves, but I think that makes him extremely effective, as a wolf or innocent. From what I've gathered, he works well off others ideas, and I would not take his short few posts as carelessness. I think he carefully reads through everything, and since there isn't much more to add, just writes a couple thoughts about people. Last time I horribly took how "correct" he was about everything, as him obviously being a wolf, because he seemed to just know too much, and I had to give myself a paper-cut and pour lemon juice on it I was so wrong.

Anyway, where I'm trying to get at with McCaber, is his style makes him a wolf who can go unnoticed. But also a very dangerous foe versus the wolves, because of the quiet, almost un-threatening, yet sound judgement when he's innocent. Would you mind if I nickname you the silent assasin McCaber?

I'm not sure what to think about Kath yet. She seems to be playing rather uncommiting, and safe, but that's usually what I say about her. The biggest thing that troubled me was her question of what the reps expected from the non-reps. On the surface it seems like an innocent question from somebody who is looking to help out, and give some thoughts. On the other hand, it's kind of strange coming from Kath, I know this is a new situation and all, but it looks like she's not wanting to give up too much information. I mean really what do we expect from any innocent villager? Maybe it also has something to do with she did recently figure out non-reps could post during the 2nd part of the day.

Gwath, I really think too much is being made out of his vote for Nogrod as a representative. The whole argument really doesn't make sense, maybe someone can explain it here. But, since Gwath gave the reason of choosing Nogrod, because he believed Nogrod would keep the quiet players on their toes, and since Gwath would fall into this category of "quiet" players so far, that makes him look suspicious? Sorry, but am I reading things correctly?

Edit: crossed with Ilya and morm

mormegil

11-12-2008, 07:23 PM

I'm on post 336 and it seems that Lommy and Agan are going at it strongly. I find little merit in either arguement and feel that both are innocent. Lommy seems like Lommy, who generally exhibits behavior that I find suspicious and she is doing that right now which is innocent, if that makes sense. Lommy seems to find one or two targets and is convinced of herself to the point that she puts blinders on other possibilities. I think that is what she is doing here.

Agan, I just have the feeling of innocence and that her and Lommy are just at each others throats but really should shift focus elsewhere.

mormegil

11-12-2008, 07:39 PM

mormegil

11-12-2008, 07:45 PM

I was going to say that! :D

In the future, if someone reverses their stance, it will be "Doing a Legate". Ha ha ha!

Hmm... What's something that I can do to turn my name into something cool like that?

You can suddenly be humble and then we can all say that when humility strikes you just pulled a phantom

...jerk;)

Sorry I had to add that after him calling me a jerk.

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 07:52 PM

Just checking in to say I'm finally here. But I've still got four pages to read. Thanks a lot guys. :rolleyes:

Shastanis Althreduin

11-12-2008, 07:55 PM

I'm here too, but am also in the middle of rehearsal, so I'm reading, but not posting so much.

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 08:02 PM

I guess the question is, would it be a wise choice to lynch a representative?

Why wouldn't it? It makes at least as much sense as lynch a person that is not a representative. . . It is not like everybody have been trying to become a representative, infact they seem to have been elected quite at random, so there is no reason that a wolf should not be amongst them.

I have read most of what happened since I left, but I simply skipped some of Aganzir, Lommy and Legates posts. . . . It is too late for me to read through that massive posts.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 08:35 PM

Well, when you remove the people from the village that I listed as "safe from my vote", you are left with-

Diamond18
Ilya
McCaber
Nerwen
Rune
Shasta
The Ka

Crap. I don't really want to vote for anyone. Day 1. :rolleyes:

I suppose the most important thing here is avoiding a massive tie. We have a three-lynch going right now. We have four Reps left to vote. If we pick new people, that'll be a seven-lynch blood bath.

No. Not good.

Boro, Brin, Ilya- do not feel that I am pressuring you to vote for someone who has already been voted for. Feel free, for I will hold my vote till near the end and put someone ahead if there is a mass tie.

But if all of you decide to do the same thing then we're looking at chaos and possibly disasterous cross-posting votes in which we all vote for someone with one vote and end up with a three-lynch or something like that. Whatever we do, let's find a way to avoid that.

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 08:38 PM

Phew, I just did some majorly fast reading. It's been a long Day (both here and RL)...

Just a quick response to Legate:

Now, now. What the Republic of a nonsense is that? Agan posted two posts which contained about nothing, and she said plainly there that she posts little because she does not have time. She also said she won't probably have much time tomorrow. So, if you voted her to be a Rep in order to see her posting more - you are doing something illogical, aren't you? If you ever read her posts, for that's the only thing I could think of as logical reason for that.
To see her posting more was only one of the reasons I voted her...the main reason I chose her was because I think she can have good judgement if innocent. And did she really not have time to post today? I think she posted plenty...

I still need to share my thoughts of everyone from what I've gathered so far...or at least what I've managed to gather. So much info in so little time is making my head explode.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 08:41 PM

Why wouldn't it? It makes at least as much sense as lynch a person that is not a representative. . . It is not like everybody have been trying to become a representative, infact they seem to have been elected quite at random, so there is no reason that a wolf should not be amongst them.~Rune
True. I was more just trying to look at some options here. Statistically speaking there is at least one wolf who is a representative, but the same would hold true for the non-representatives. There may be a greater probability of getting a wolf from the group of non-representatives. So, either way I look at it, it looks like a crap shoot and I'm just trying to figure out which way will give I get the best odds.

Edit: crossed with Brinn, and just X'out the word "give" in the last sentence...ya that was tiredness slipping in.

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 08:42 PM

Diamond18 will no longer be participating in this game. She was an ordinary villager and will be written out respectfully.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 08:44 PM

Darn it!

I was just about to float the idea of lynching Di because she seemed like a very safe lynch (ie not the Seer).

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 08:46 PM

I advise floating a different idea. Although you may feel free to waste your vote on her if you truly wish to do so.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 08:54 PM

Feel free, for I will hold my vote till near the end and put someone ahead if there is a mass tie.~the phantom
Well, I was going to put myself under that situation if it came down to it, but hey if you want to take it, I'm not complaining.

In that case, I'll vote sometime before the deadline, hopefully I can hear a bit more from others before then? What do you say? But it will be before the very, very end, if you know what I mean.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 08:57 PM

Oh, and so it is clear, I think I'm pretty much down between Legate and Agan. I will look through the stuff on Eonwe, but as far as Gwath, I don't see any reason to vote for him. Yes, Nogrod, that means I'm not buying your argument.

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 08:59 PM

Representatives, you have approximately one hour left to vote for yourself and your constituents.

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-12-2008, 09:00 PM

To see her posting more was only one of the reasons I voted her...the main reason I chose her was because I think she can have good judgement if innocent. And did she really not have time to post today? I think she posted plenty...

I still need to share my thoughts of everyone from what I've gathered so far...or at least what I've managed to gather. So much info in so little time is making my head explode.

What and odd reason that is. . .I don't know if it speaks of innocens or wolfishness, but odd it is.

You are right that Aganzir posted plenty, infact she posted so much that it could seem like unauthorized filibustering.

Anyways I shall go to sleep now. . . . I will see you on election day. (if you dare)

mormegil

11-12-2008, 09:04 PM

Ilya - so far so good

Okay I am just to this line and found it odd. It would seem to me that this is the first time Ilya has played, correct? If he/she (sorry I don't know which) were to be a wolf with Legate, there would be some aprehension and fear associated with such a role on the first time. It seems that Legate would be giving him a clue here that he's doing just fine and to keep it up. He said nothing similar to any other player. I have not suspect Ilya to this point but this raises my suspicions especially if Legate is one.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:04 PM

So what do you think Boro? Go for a target that is giving off vibes, and risk that they are Seer vibes, or go for a target that seems extremely safe?

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 09:18 PM

So what do you think Boro? Go for a target that is giving off vibes, and risk that they are Seer vibes, or go for a target that seems extremely safe?~the phantom
I'm going for someone giving off vibes, in this village with 4 wolves, and 1 gifted (the seer) I doubt the seer would be out in the open right at the start. Making a safe choice may actually turn out being the unsafe thing. Of course I could be completely wrong about all that.

Ilya

11-12-2008, 09:22 PM

I was called away unexpectedly, but now I have returned. Thoughts:

Does anybody else find it odd that Agan and Brinn voted for each other, and now Brinn is questioning Agan? There may be nothing to it, but Agan has been a little hard to follow, at least for me, and it just muddles things further.

Legate seems to be a choice on other people's lists. I need another rereading before I'm ready to cast a vote.

tp's list has a lot of players that haven't spoken a lot. It may be the way to go, to try an torpedo a lurker, especially with things so unclear on day 1, but that's not what I'm going to do. I think there's enough written, and there should be at eleven pages, to pull some suspicion from those who have posted.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 09:24 PM

May I ask tp, what do you think about Legate and Agan? Not trying to lobby a vote here, but just in general, taking the risk of lynching either of them this early?

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 09:24 PM

Aganzir: Nothing about her rings any alarms. Is it just me or does seem she and Lommy always fight in WW games together? :p Anyway, whatever's between them, I think it's ordo-on-ordo.

Boromir88: Hard to say. I think he's been posting wisely and while part of me feels inclined to trust him, another part of me is not so sure.

Eönwë: Has sort of fallen under my radar. In other words, I have no idea.

Gil-Galad: His confusion makes me think he's more likely innocent. I think were he a wolf, he would've taken time to at least glance at the rules.

Greenie: Not sure. I always have trouble trusting her.

Gwathagor: Hasn't really said enough for me to get a clear opinion on him.

Ilya: Is a player I'm not familiar with. She doesn't ring any alarms yet, but since I don't know her playing style at all, I'd like to keep an eye on her.

Legate: I agree he's acting a bit odd. His flip flop on tp was weird and he seems a bit too eager with power.

Lommy: see Aganzir

Kath: I need to hear more from her.

McCaber: Seems to be laying low.

mormegil: As of now, I have no idea. But I admit each time I play with him, he scares me.

Nerwen: Also needs to post more.

Nogrod: I admittingly keep skimming through his posts because they're so lengthy (along with a few other players). I tend to agree with him too much, but I can never get myself to trust him.

Rune: Is too focused on voting reps. Perhaps it's hard to find suspects in this early stage, but if you can find someone innocentish, surely you could also share something that seems slightly suspicious to you..

Sally: Is her usual happy-go-lucky self.

Shasta: Hasn't rang any alarms yet, but as of now I don't have any idea.

The Ka: Has posted substance, but still seems uninvolved. Something about Ka feels odd....just a gut feeling there.

the phantom: At 85 posts in one Day, he's reached an aggressive stage of CPD. :p Truly, tp always remains a mystery to me. Right now I don't see any reason to suspect, but if I do in the future I might not hesitate to vote for him. Because I did before and he turned out to be a wolf...

So...

Slightly Suspicious
Legate
McCaber
Ka

No Clue
Boromir
Eonwe
Greenie
Gwath
Ilya
Kath
morm
Nerwen
Nogrod
Rune
Shasta
phantom

Innocentish
Aganzir
Gil-Galad
Lommy
Sally

Gah, I have way too many people in my "no clue" section, and the ones in my suspicious list I'm not even that strongly suspicious of. Oh, how I hate Day Ones. :rolleyes:

EDIT: X-ed with Ilya and Boro

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 09:25 PM

Does anybody else find it odd that Agan and Brinn voted for each other, and now Brinn is questioning Agan?
When did I question Aganzir?

mormegil

11-12-2008, 09:27 PM

I would like to point out that you phantom at 85 posts on Day 1, and counting, are responsible for over 2 full pages of posts...and they complain about the quiet ones...quite frankly I'm grateful there are some who have a reasonable post count here.

Ilya

11-12-2008, 09:31 PM

Brinn, strike my last. You were responding to Legate, not Agan. All these posts are starting to run together.

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 09:33 PM

And people were worried about boring days... ;)

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:40 PM

I'm going for someone giving off vibes, in this village with 4 wolves, and 1 gifted (the seer) I doubt the seer would be out in the open right at the start. Making a safe choice may actually turn out being the unsafe thing. Of course I could be completely wrong about all that.
Hmmm... I do see your logic. There's no way to know, I guess. It all depends on what sort of character the Seer is. Me for instance- you know good and well that I would hide right out in the open. I must think about this.
May I ask tp, what do you think about Legate and Agan? Not trying to lobby a vote here, but just in general, taking the risk of lynching either of them this early?
I'm not going to vote for them. I already said I can't trust Legate yet. So obviously I believe it is possible that he's a WW. But he's one that I think we could learn something from. I dunno... it's a risk.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:46 PM

Brin and Ilya- what do you think about this matter?

I'd also like to know if I'm going to have to be breaking a tie, as it would then be in my best interest to skim their stuff as quickly as possible to see which would be the safer choice.

As far as my choice, I would say that Nerwen and McCaber are both relatively good choices as they did not vote for Reps and haven't said much on anyone. I've got pretty much zero vibes from them.

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 09:49 PM

++Lynch Legate

Of the three on my suspicion list, he's the one I'm most suspicious of. And of the three who have already been voted for, he's the one I'd rather vote for most.

EDIT: X-ed with tp

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 09:49 PM

I'm not going to vote for them. I already said I can't trust Legate yet. So obviously I believe it is possible that he's a WW. But he's one that I think we could learn something from. I dunno... it's a risk.~the phantom
Something else I try to consider is what information will I get from someone's lynch. Some one's death is the only way I'm going to get information, and while I have been considering voting for Eonwe (when I looked back through, Legate's been pretty consistant against him, and Eonwe, while has been entertaining us with catch-phrases, I saw little else). So, if Eonwe is not a wolf, what does that reveal about other villagers?

Where, obviously since Legate and Agan like to open their mouths more, their deaths could reveal a lot more for me.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:52 PM

I'm also well aware of the fact that a WW could very well be among those still to vote, which is another reason I'm holding my vote.

McCaber

11-12-2008, 09:52 PM

Once again, coming back in. I'm not sure I like this trend of representatives voting to lynch each other. If this keeps up all the people the village trust will be dead by Monday. I suppose it is the easiest possibility, though. They were the only people still talking today.

Ilya

11-12-2008, 09:52 PM

You may have to, tp. I don't have enough to vote for Eonwe or Gwath.

Edit: Legate has two votes now. I'm giving his long post one more go, and if I'm still as suspicious as I am right now, I'm gonna vote.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 09:53 PM

As far as my choice, I would say that Nerwen and McCaber are both relatively good choices as they did not vote for Reps and haven't said much on anyone. I've got pretty much zero vibes from them.~Nerwen
I won't ever figure out Nerwen, but I would not want to see McCaber voted off yet, for the reasons I stated earlier.

Edit: Jeez oh man the gaffes, I was quoting the phantom, not Nerwen.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 09:54 PM

++Lynch Legate

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:54 PM

Speaking on the matter of Legate- what worries me is that the suspicion that I and others have of him may be purposeful. I mean, that he purposefully gathered some suspicion to protect himself from being killed. In addition, if he is the Seer, he probably dreamed of me given that he chose me as his Rep. Thus you can see why I might be reluctant. If I'm going to lynch the Seer, I'd prefer not to be a complete moron and vote for a Seer who has dreamed of me. :rolleyes:

McCaber

11-12-2008, 09:55 PM

Boro, you can call me "the silent assassin" all you like. It is an accurate description of how I operate, after all, and it sounds awesome.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:57 PM

That's three for Legate, is it not?

Then he's toast. All I could do with Ilya is tie him with someone, which I do not want to do.

satansaloser2005

11-12-2008, 09:57 PM

Oh! I forgot we're going by Downs time, so I still have a few minutes. (Just got back.) Unfortunately, not long enough to really catch up. :(

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:58 PM

Please tell me if I have counted incorrectly.

Ilya

11-12-2008, 09:58 PM

Phantom, there's a lot of 'ifs' in that argument.

++Lynch Legate

I'm still not satisfied, but Boro is right. The reality of a death may tell us more about our reasoning than keeping someone around and doing more guesswork.

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 09:59 PM

12 pages in one Day....that's gotta be record. No wonder I'm exhausted. :rolleyes:

the phantom

11-12-2008, 09:59 PM

Well, it's over now. Hopefully our vibes were not incorrect.

McCaber

11-12-2008, 09:59 PM

two days. 48 hours.

I've got to be technical here, sorry.

Boromir88

11-12-2008, 10:00 PM

I'm also well aware of the fact that a WW could very well be among those still to vote, which is another reason I'm holding my vote.~the phantom
As am I.

the phantom

11-12-2008, 10:00 PM

Throwaway vote-

++lynch Shasta

Ha ha! :D

Good luck, everyone.

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 10:00 PM

End of Day. Legate shall perish. Shush up and do your Nightly things. I'll get to narrating when I get to it.

Brinniel

11-12-2008, 10:00 PM

But in WW terms it is still one Day. ;)

EDIT: X-ed with the Moddess

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-12-2008, 10:18 PM

It is undeniably fascinating, the things that happen once you’ve died: for instance, omniscience. A skill that would help a rather lot in life, and you don’t get it until it’s too late. The poetic justice simply astonishes, and drives mad.

Yes, village, I am watching you. You killed me. It’s called being haunted. Get used to it.

In fact, village, I’ve got a few things to say.

Stop looking at me like that, it shouldn’t surprise you that I’m talking to you now, I’ve been telling you things all day. Just because it’s finally dark enough for me to glow properly… everybody knows ghosts are only visible when moonlight reflects off their insubstantial bodies… Sunlight is useless.

What happened?

Tell me yourself, you all are the ones who did it.

Hello, Di, by the way, it’s rather nice to see you here, with me, in the afterlife. I’m rather sorry you didn’t survive… lethal heart attacks never do seem to ask if their timing is inconvenient, do they? Well, at least you weren’t gifted, I’m sure the village is thinking…

You already knew that? Ungrateful village. Fine. I’ll tell you.

Legate was killed directly by Aganzir, Brinniel, Boromir, and Ilya, and indirectly by Shasta, Brinniel, Aganzir, Greenie, Ka, Ilya, Lommie, and Nogrod. Yes, that’s exactly right: in effect, Aganzir, Brinniel, and Ilya got twice the typical amount of decision-making power when some of the village got none today at all, having voted for Representatives people who didn’t have enough support to seal the deal. Doesn’t that just burn your cookies?

And the phantom, you all know, had a rather ill-fated last minute attempt to vote Ralph Nader into office with the power of Boromir and dead-Legate (who I am sure appreciated the fake-effort to save him)…

In any case, I’m sure you don’t at all care about my babbling, which risks (dare I say it) revealing all sorts of secret ghostly things you shouldn’t know about, so I’ll just stop now…

FINE! Stop your yelling.

Don’t you know it’s not polite to yell at ghosts?

Legate was completely ordinary. Utterly giftless. Y’all killed a good guy.

Serves you right for assassinating your President.

Yes. I am bitter.

Deal with it.

---

Dead:

Fea
Mith
Rikae
Diamond18 (ordo)
Legate (ordo)

Alive:

Aganzir
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eönwë
Gil-Galad
Greenie
Gwathagor
Ilya
Lommy
Kath
McCaber
mormegil
Nerwen
Nogrod
Rune
Sally
Shasta
The Ka
the phantom

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-13-2008, 09:10 PM

I have a quiz in the morning which I didn't know about until last minute (consequence of missing the class period when he told us about it), so I'm starting the Day early so I can study before I crash. Feel free to post.

---

Mith, darling, do you not find it diverting to watch these mortals at play?

Do you not delight in watching the evil four scheme? I love it.

Do you think they know we can see everything they're doing?

Rikae, what do you think? Do they know we are privy to their most private conversations? My, how their whispers in the night would be censored if they had any idea-

-that or they have no shame. ;)

McCaber, lovey, so nice of you to join us. Innocent, of course. Werewolves don't kill each other... And ordinary. How was that last day in a village that kills its own members? Twisted, that lot are...

Sordid.

Sinister.

Unreliable.

---

Dead:

Fea
Mith
Rikae
Diamond18 (ordo)
Legate (ordo)
McCaber (ordo)

Alive:

Aganzir
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eönwë
Gil-Galad
Greenie
Gwathagor
Ilya
Lommy
Kath
mormegil
Nerwen
Nogrod
Rune
Sally
Shasta
The Ka
the phantom

the phantom

11-13-2008, 09:23 PM

I'm not finished with my complete person-by-person read-through yet, but I will finish before I go to bed tonight.

I have finished with all non-Reps, however. I have four Reps left to read and take notes on. I'll post results as soon as I am able.

After that I'll theorize on the McCaber kill. Right now my only reaction is surprise.

Gwathagor

11-13-2008, 09:40 PM

the phantom

11-13-2008, 10:24 PM

Only two people left to read through. :)

Unfortunately, it's Boro and Nog, so it'll take a bit of time.

mormegil

11-13-2008, 10:32 PM

Based on his vote against me yesterDay, I am inclined to think that Nogrod is innocent. It seems unlikely to me that a werewolf, having been voted into power, would proceed to risk alienating half of his constituency by trying to have them executed.

That's all for now.

I don't see how that qualifies him as innocent. I think your thoughts are too one sided here and you are not looking at other possibilities. I personally still feel Noggie innocent but just because he voted for a constituent doesn't make him innocent. In fact, it would seem that his vote was moderately safe on the whole being that very few, if any other of the reps suspected you. Speaking of votes...

Agan started us off with a vote for Legate
Noggie followed by voting Gwath
Legate follows by voting Eonwe...it's nice to know that Legate's suspcion of him was genuine.
After that Brinn, Boro and then Ilya come in and vote for Legate. Boro officially seals the deal and Ilya makes a safe vote ensuring that no double lynchings would happen and makes her look good...right? I'm skeptical of votes like these. If I remember correctly and from what I gathered in my brief review of her posts she seemed to go with the flow. She didn't offer up any risky propositions or suspicions.
Phantom's vote was admittedly a throw away vote to Shasta and I'm not sure what if anything can be read into it and that is what is so frustrating. Phantummy (new nickname or just tummy for short) is very intelligent when it comes to wwing and he knows that these things can be read either way. I see him, now, acting very deliberate as to not give any sort of read which is irritating because I don't know where to place him.

Personally I liked the number of reps we had yesterday. I think it wise to keep it an odd number. That way if there ends up being two main candiates and it's nearly split it's easily possible to not have a double lynching which I'm generally opposed to unless we have a certainty of who the wolves are.

As for my possible reps today those who I trust and have shown enough dedication are:
Agan
Boro
Brinn
Nog

Shasta has the dedication but I just don't feel I can fully trust him yet. I realize that after I typed this that all four of these were reps yesterday. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. But honestly I wouldn't feel comfortable with any other that is not on that list.

Boromir88

11-13-2008, 10:47 PM

Hmm...that's interesting.

But first, I'll say, there was not nearly enough talk and suspicions going on yesterday. I will also take part of the blame for that, because I really didn't know what to think. There were lots and lots of posts, however not too many accusations. There was a lot of game mechanics, a lot of "I don't know what to think about blah blah," and a little bit of bull mixed in there.

So my new proposal is we need change, and I will be looking to nominate new faces for representatives. I will be looking for those who will weed out the lazy, play-it-cautious representatives, and start aggressively going after the wolves

The ones, yesterday, who I believe could fill those shoes are...

morm
Rune
Greenie

I was a little uneasy about morm on the first day because he seemed rather out-of-sinc; a little busy, perhaps a little rusty, but when I actually went back and looked at his posts, there's a lot of stuff there. I mean really he probably posted more stuff about people than anyone else; particularly the second part of the day.

Rune is a pretty good campaign manager. His first couple posts were I would guess for amusement, but then he really gets straight to business. He is the one I credit with moving us passed the Gil-Shasta encounter.

Greenie is business right from the start, right from her first post. And 273 just looks oh so genuine.

(P.S. I can give specifics if anyone asks me, this is just my overall broad ideas of a couple people who stood out as possible representatives for me).

Before I head out to sleep...sally is starting to catch my eye...In posts 305 and 308 she looks to be stirring the pot around between Shasta and Gil, but then in 321 she agrees with Rune about moving on?

Edit, crossed with morm

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:05 PM

It took me a while to get through Nog, and Boro will take just as long.

By that time some of you will be in bed, so I think I should go ahead and post what I have (everybody except Boro). Besides, I supsect I'm going to find Boro mostly innocent anyway. But I'll see later.

I will begin posting my thoughts shortly....

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:07 PM

First things first, before I start posting, know that I simply cannot give all of my reasons. For instance, if someone gives me a Seer vibe, I'm not about to post it.

I will post everything that I feel needs to be and should be posted about my suspicions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nerwen

11-13-2008, 11:09 PM

Somebody had to do it...

Here is your collection of all posts made by McCaber, all in one convenient, easy-to-read package:

#18.
I'm here for the first day. How awesome is that? Very awesome.

[replying to the phantom]

Interesting question. I would have to guess nothing would happen, much like in a state senate.

EDIT: crossed with the phantom

#34. (replying to the phantom)
Not killing, per se, but merely trying to reign it in. Someone's got to think of the Europeans here, you know.

I'm actually in favor of having around seven reps as a target number. As of right now, I have no idea who I will choose to represent me, though. I feel that's a choice I need to make without any hostile influences.

#35. (replying to tp.)
What do you care, you're a ghost? If anything the gun-toting monkey should be afraid of you.

#48. (I can't find what he's replying to here, except to tp (#36) listing him as the Cobbler.)
Just because I'm here doesn't automatically make me a wolf. I mean, I've slacked off as a wolf plenty of times. Not only the last one but the one where Rikae ranted for days at everyone and we pulled off the win for a dramatic finish. I didn't even show up for the last day on that one.

And I find the Cobbler remarks classist.

EDIT: crossed with a lot of people. I think I'm going to stop marking it until it actually counts.

#105
Now I'm picturing a filibuster where all I do is talk about the phantom's posts.

I can taste the possibilities from here.

#153. (replying to Fea, who told Gwath he could not vote for himself).
Good. I was worried I'd have to sidetrack Gwath myself.

I'm not going to make a list of how I feel about people yet. I find that this early on everyone's mostly "innocent-ish" and/or "too quiet to tell." Perhaps during the second half of the Day.

For some reason I also really like phantom's suggestion of non-violence. If any village can pull that sort of thing off, it's this one. Representative republican anarchy.

Day 1 1/2.

#256.
So I apologize for not voting. Schoolwork ambushed me two hours before DL-1.

I am confident in our Day 1 reps, though (as far as Day 1 confidence goes, that is). A good mix of talkers and ponderers.

(For the record, my vote probably would have been for Legate.)

#338.
Just checking in to see what's happened so far in our little government.

Not a lot, apparently. Anything I would say right now has already been seen and commented on by the actual reps, so I hope they know what they're talking about. I mean, we elected them.

And even after this many WW games, I have almost no idea where people are getting so much Day 1 arguments from. Ah well. It gives me things to think about.

#441.
Once again, coming back in. I'm not sure I like this trend of representatives voting to lynch each other. If this keeps up all the people the village trust will be dead by Monday. I suppose it is the easiest possibility, though. They were the only people still talking today.

#446.
Boro, you can call me "the silent assassin" all you like. It is an accurate description of how I operate, after all, and it sounds awesome.

#443– last words.
two days. 48 hours.

I've got to be technical here, sorry.

He's posted more than I realised, but without saying anything much about anyone– no possible Seer-hints. So looked at one way, it's just a classic "no-trace" kill... and looked at another way it's odd, because that very lack of substance could have easily been used against him, given his reputation as a sneaky wolf.

As it is, Nogrod (#375) calls him "the ultimate submarine"; Brinn (#431) lists him as "slightly suspicious"
Boro (#409) calls him "the silent assassin".

EDIT: x'd with Boro and tp.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:13 PM

First, a basic list.

(not necessarily in order of suspicion)

Uneasy about:
Nerwen
morm
Shasta
Brin
Nog

In between:
The KA
Gwath
Sally
Eonwe
Lommy
Ilya

Feel good about:
Kath
Green
Rune
Gil
Agan

Details will follow.

Ilya

11-13-2008, 11:18 PM

Thanks for putting that together, Nerwen. McCaber strikes me as a really safe kill. Anyone about whom general opinions have been form would be advantageous to keep around. And I think given the events of Day 1, reputation, or lack thereof, played into the voting of the reps but not into the lynch votes. Reps turned on constituents, and some constituents turned on their reps. I need to go reread, uhm, everything. But Anna Karenina takes precedent tonight, so I probably won't be around until after class tomorrow, around 4ish.

Edit: Will stick around for tp's list, because I want to see an alternative view to the gut suspicious I had of Agan.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:23 PM

The KA- I don't have a clear picture of her. I'm not sure how she usually plays. But I like that some of her opinions mesh with mine.

Kath- Acted extremely innocent (wording, conduct, etc). She either is innocent, or doing a great job pretending, and thus should be rewarded.

Nerwen- She didn't say much, except for stating some critiques in post 266. She'd better step it up today.

Green- Innocent reactions and talk from her. I hope to see more of her today.

Rune- Came in late and didn't do much, but I liked his style. Let's see what he does today.

Gwath- Supported Nog and then was turned on. I need to see more from him today though.

Gil- Strolled in and voted after the deadline. Amused me. I say we all just consider him innocent and call it good.

(to be continued)

mormegil

11-13-2008, 11:25 PM

Before I go to bed I had to post this...As I was going to bed last night I turned on The Simpsons and the following quote cracked me up...

Homer: "Will you all stop worrying about that stupid comet? It's going to be destroyed. Didn't you hear what that guy in the building said?"
Lisa: "But dad, don't you think..."
Homer: "Lisa, the whole reason we have elected officials is so we don't have to think all the time. Just like that rain forest scare a few years back. Our officials saw there was a problem and they fixed it, didn't they?"
Lisa: "No, Dad, I don't think..."
Homer: "There's that word again!"

There you have it...whomever I elect will do my thinking for me...:rolleyes: Sadly that seemed to happen a bit yesterday.

Boromir88

11-13-2008, 11:25 PM

Besides, I supsect I'm going to find Boro mostly innocent anyway. But I'll see later.~the phantom
Why bother if you're most likely going to find me innocent? You see? All I'm really trying to do is stop you from wasting your time.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:28 PM

Sally- I expected more from her, but what she said seemed okay.

Eonwe- I swing back and forth here. One more day should give me a better idea.

morm- He keeps pointing at me for being different, and yet he was a far cry from usual morm. Busy, WW, or both? Convince me today, morm.

Lommy- Early on I was really finding her suspicious, and thought she was trying to fuel suspicion without stepping forward herself. But as the day wore on I started thinking her innocent due to her reactions.

Shasta- That many posts and I still have nothing. I don't like it. He seems to latch onto Lommy's triangle idea, and go for the easy Gil target when it appears, and fueled Legate suspicion. Let's see some meaty posts today, man. Make me think you're innocent.

(to be continued...)

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:38 PM

Ilya- Is this really her first time? Seems like maybe she's at least discussed WW before (possibly with the WWs before the game?). Overall well-founded opinions which is good. I'd like to give her another day to get used to her style, but I don't really trust her yet.

Brin- I found 225 Wolfish- I think maybe she wanted to lay low and then found herself a Rep. I didn't like her Rep vote much either, but whatever.

Aganzir- I thought her Rep vote was straightforward. Her accusations have good reasoning, and her attack on Lommy was understandable (in my reread, early Lommy looked guilty to me too). And then Agan backed off her (exactly the way I found Lommy less guilty later).

Nog- I can't trust the guy at all. All of his dynamics talk seems like he's talking about that because he sure as heck can't talk about suspects (cause he knows the WWs already perhaps). His support for Boro and I at times reminded me of the way I've treated other loudmouths as a WW. And I want to suspect him for 352 in which it appears he tries to make Legate a Seer target (to keep the Seer's eyes off of him and his buds). But then these things could possibly be due to a difference in thinking and approach between us. Convince me Nog.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:40 PM

Extra note: Brin and morm both received a bump up my list because of them both mentioning the idea of a target amount of Reps right off the bat. It just seems so... weird... to actually think about the number of Reps you want. What does that have to do with anything? It made me feel that the idea had somehow come up in pre-game Wolf PMs or something.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:42 PM

And by the way, there may be people that I'm more willing to lynch from my between list than a couple on my higher suspicion list, for reasons that are my own.

I don't want to lynch anyone today from my trusted list.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:44 PM

I see your point, Gwath. I'd probably agree if it was me you were talking about, but I'm not sure about Nog.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:47 PM

Phantom's vote was admittedly a throw away vote to Shasta and I'm not sure what if anything can be read into it and that is what is so frustrating.
It's not my fault that my vote was what it was.

I had already announced that I would hang around to prevent ties. This put me in the position of possibly having to decide who was going to die and who was going to live. That would have been extremely telling.

But then everyone before me voted the same exact way, rendering my vote useless.

So while it is true that my vote told you nothing, please note that I did not intentionally put myself into a position in which my vote was likely to mean nothing. Quite the opposite, in fact.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:51 PM

But first, I'll say, there was not nearly enough talk and suspicions going on yesterday.
I'm not sure I agree. It was Day 1. There had been no WW kill yet, and little time to get reads on people, so I don't think we could have expected anything different.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:56 PM

Thanks for McCaber's posts, Nerwen.
McCaber strikes me as a really safe kill.
Safe, maybe, but why play it safe?

The WWs need to kill the Seer ASAP. Did McCaber strike anyone as a leading Seer candidate? If they indeed marked him as a potential Seer, his dream would've been for Legate. And with his dream-target dead already, he was a Seer who had little weight, and thus unless he was a clear favorite a different potential Seer should have been selected.

McCaber's selection baffles me.

Ilya

11-13-2008, 11:58 PM

Ilya- Is this really her first time?
Yes and no. I played vicariously through Perky when he was around - we have the same parental units and he liked to talk about WW. So I sort of have an idea of what's going on, but I don't have any conception of style or what to look for in, you know, a wolf who's pretending not to be a wolf. The game was so much simpler when I knew the mod and could just ask who was who...

Now, back to Anna Arkadyevna in a black dress.

the phantom

11-13-2008, 11:58 PM

Why bother if you're most likely going to find me innocent? You see? All I'm really trying to do is stop you from wasting your time.
Ha ha! :D

Sorry, Boro, but it would be improper to do a read-through on everyone except you. But I think I will wait until morning to do it. I'm very tired.

Boromir88

11-14-2008, 12:22 AM

I see your point, Gwath. I'd probably agree if it was me you were talking about, but I'm not sure about Nog.~the phantom
I'm glad you were able to finish with Nogrod. I've been going through the posts too, but Nogrod is someone I haven't finished yet; he actually reall has been someone I've relatively ignored so far. That's also rather peculiar, Nogrod just hadn't stood out to me as someone important on Day 1. (No offense there Nogrod). Anyway, I decided to take a good look at his last couple posts yesterday, what sticks out to me is his continued pressure on Legate, yet doesn't vote for him, and goes for Gwath instead.

Now before Lommy (or Nogrod for that matter) gets in here and explain all about how Nogrod doesn't like lynching vocal players early on, and ended up going for Gwath, thus he's innocent you see...Going off his posts though it just doesn't make sense.

I agree with tp that in 352, that looks bad, and by Nogrod's admission:
It seems I have the weightiest reasons to suspect Legate then? But I'm more than reluctant to try him out toDay for the case is more speculative than I'd wish it to be were I to vote someone who could be such an assistance to us.

In 370 he lays out his reasoning against Gwath.
I'm one of those who were a bit uneasy with Gwath's vote for me as a representative. The contraditory nature of that vote was clear indeed. And it could be looked from the devil's advocate viewpoint quite easily and deemed evil.
I guestioned this at the end of yesterday, on what was the big deal here, about Gwath's choice for Nogrod? Ok, Gwath says Nog will keep the quiet ones on their toes, Gwath hasn't posted a lot...ya it's contradictory, but talk about a real weak (I would even call bogus) accusation of wolvish-ness.

Then he credits Gwath for questioning the phantom. What is it that teachers like to do now...the compliment sandwhich? This is really good, wow you suck here, but oh this is nice.

In 375 he underlines those who he will not vote for today, one of them is Legate. However, as mentioned above he continues to put pressure on Legate. In 380, right before he says he's got to vote and leave...
I haven't even read all of your post yet Legate but this cries for spelling it out aloud...

If tp says that if you keep on making that Star Wars stuff he'll be backing you... what do you do? You keep on with it in a striking manner.

That looks suspicious indeed... I need to make the choice in something like fifteen minutes (1.30AM here, waking up call at 6.30) and you didn't make it easier.

Nogrod, pal, this doesn't look good to me. If you said before you would not be voting for Legate, why turn up the heat on him? Why not focus on Gwath or anyone of the 4-5 other people you didn't underline? Also, it's strange that you said the case against Legate was purely speculative, and it made you nervous, but what was the deal about Gwath's representative vote? That looked like more balogna than anything you said about Legate.

And like I said, don't think about feeding me the bull of you not wanting to lynch someone like Legate so early. I bet you wanted the innocent Legate lynched yesterday you see...Although I would also bet you didn't want to get your paws messy.

Before I even post an edit, I'll just say now I've probably cross-posted with tp at least 3 times (Edit: alright I was close - 4 times plus 1 Ilya).

Eönwë

11-14-2008, 01:07 AM

Day 1

Rep Voting Lynch voting

Brinn :Aganzir\ Aganzir ++Legate[ordo]
Shasta :Aganzir/

Morm :Nogrod\Nogrod ++Gwath
Gwath :Nogrod/

ye phantome :Legate[ordo]\Legate[ordo] ++Eönwë
Sally :Legate[ordo]/

Aganzir :Brinniel\Brinniel ++Legate[ordo] (2)
Greenie :Brinniel/

Ilya :Boro\Boro ++Legate[ordo] (3)
THE Ka :Boro/

Nogrod :Ilya\Ilya ++Legate[ordo] (4)
Lommy :Ilya/

Boro :ye phantome\Ye phantome ++Shasta
Legate[ordo] :ye phantome/

Kath :Lommy

Eonwe :Greenie

Didn't vote: Diamond, Gil, McCabber, Nerwen, Rune

Voted for no filibuster: Di[ordo], Legate[ordo], Boro, Ilya, Shasta, Sally,
Filibustered: -
Lynched: Legate
(Di written out)

Night 2

Killed: McCaber

(*)= vote didn't count (missed deadline)
(+)= thought/ knew vote didn't count (missed deadline)
(-)= throwaway vote (Knew couldn't change lynchee and voted someone else)
()= total votes for person that day so far
<>= total votes for person from an individual so far
[]= known status/ postion e.g. ordo

***

1) If I have missed anything out or done something wrong, please correct me
2) I don't think I'll have a need for those deadline marks in this game, but it always pays to be on the safe side safe.

I'll be back in around 12 hours

Eönwë

11-14-2008, 01:19 AM

The table/list-thing above comes out wrong when you post it and anything I do to make it better makes it worse.:(

Nerwen

11-14-2008, 02:18 AM

Thanks for putting that together, Nerwen. McCaber strikes me as a really safe kill.

Is that what you thought when you were gobbling him down last Night, Wolfya?:p

...No, that's not a serious accusation... but I'm getting a faint pinging of the radar from the following say-nothing paragraph:

Anyone about whom general opinions have been form would be advantageous to keep around. And I think given the events of Day 1, reputation, or lack thereof, played into the voting of the reps but not into the lynch votes. Reps turned on constituents, and some constituents turned on their reps. I need to go reread, uhm, everything. But Anna Karenina takes precedent tonight, so I probably won't be around until after class tomorrow, around 4ish.

Thanks for McCaber's posts, Nerwen.

Safe, maybe, but why play it safe?

The WWs need to kill the Seer ASAP. Did McCaber strike anyone as a leading Seer candidate? If they indeed marked him as a potential Seer, his dream would've been for Legate. And with his dream-target dead already, he was a Seer who had little weight, and thus unless he was a clear favorite a different potential Seer should have been selected.

McCaber's selection baffles me.

Well, often enough nobody looks particularly Seerish (from the lupine point-of-view) on Day One... but with all the posting yesterDay, you'd think someone would have fitted the bill.

On the other paw... you are assuming that all wolves have exactly your priorities. Some don't like to go after an accuser unless they have good reason for thinking him or her the Seer (as opposed to, say, listing a wolf as "suspicious" along with a bunch of innocents).

Is it possible they thought he was the Ranger, trying to lay low?

As I said, though, the other thing is that McCaber would have been perfect to keep around as a lynch candidate: he rarely does much as an ordo, while having a nasty reputation as an under-the-radar wolf– and that's just how he was acting, so it should have been pretty easy for the wolves to turn up suspicion on him.

Also– again because of the volume of posting and the suspicions flying around– you'd think there'd be someone whose death could be used to frame an innocent.

So I'm baffled too.

EDIT: X'd with Eönwë.

Brinniel

11-14-2008, 02:53 AM

phantom, you made eight posts in a row. I mean, really. Talk about flood posting... :rolleyes:

About the McCaber kill: Looking at his posts, I'm thinking it's most likely he was chosen as a no trace kill. He doesn't have many posts and the ones he has are short. And within those posts is little substance...he doesn't say much about other players at all.

But first, I'll say, there was not nearly enough talk and suspicions going on yesterday.
As tp noted, the lack of suspicions was mainly due to the fact that it was Day 1. A lot of chatter and few well grounded suspicions is typical Day 1 behaviour simply because on the first Day there's never a whole lot to go off of so early on. I thought there was actually quite a bit of talking for Day 1...though perhaps that was due to the 48 hour time span...

It just seems so... weird... to actually think about the number of Reps you want. What does that have to do with anything?
I don't understand why thinking about having a goal number of reps is weird...to me it's quite logical. I think like an American under the Electoral College system; if we're going to have people representing us, then I want it to be in equal proportion to the total population. Because going in that direction means a fairer representation of the village. Of course I never said we had to have a set number of reps...in a game where each player has their own agenda, that's simply not possible. I was just sharing my preference. By that first deadline, we ended up having seven reps (1/3 of the village), a number I was happy with. Now if we were to go by the same proportion again toDay, there would be six reps. I'm just using plain logic here. If there's anything weird about it, it's the fact that I'm actually attempting math... :rolleyes:

Is it possible they thought he was the Ranger, trying to lay low?
No, not if the wolves had read the rules. There's no ranger in this game. The only gifted is the seer.

It's really late here, so I'm heading to bed as I'm already lacking enough sleep as it is. Don't expect much activity from me until the later half of the Day (of part one). I might pop in here and there, but I won't be online for a large chunk of time until after 6pm EST.

Nerwen

11-14-2008, 03:58 AM

About the McCaber kill: Looking at his posts, I'm thinking it's most likely he was chosen as a no trace kill. He doesn't have many posts and the ones he has are short. And within those posts is little substance...he doesn't say much about other players at all.

Brinniel, I don't think there can be any doubt he was a no-trace kill (especially since there's no Ranger– I was under the impression there was, for some reason, so thanks for correcting me). My point is that I'm wondering who among us would be likely to have the no-trace kill as a priority.

EDIT: fixed bolding.

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-14-2008, 04:07 AM

Makes Some Sense:

Mormegil: There is a few things I do not agree with in his posts, such as his views on who would make a good Representative. Anyways besides minor things I think it is a very reasonable post he has put together here and a very good analysis of the Representatives votes. . . Or rather the fact that he points out Ilya’s vote as being the safe “look good vote” and that Nogrod’s should not be taken as a sign of innocents.

Boromir: He suggests me as a possible candidate, which of course always makes me happy, but I am of course trying too look beyond that and I have reached the conclusion that his first post makes good sense. The fact that he is willing to look beyond the safest of votes (the people that feels innocent) and is willing to go down the more bold road is a good sign in my eyes and he finishes of with that observation about Shasta. I my self considered if I should mention that yesterday, but I did not feel that I had read well enough trough the days posting to conclude anything. . . besides I find it very easy to suspect people who agree/are friendly towards you.

People In The Middle:

Ilya: Makes a post about McCabber being a no trace kill and she is right, but I am not quite sure how to interpret it. Clearly it is not a wolfish scheme to fool us and it could very well just be an innocent stating the obvious because they lack anything else to stay, but want to contribute. It could also be a wolf unsure on what to do, who to cast suspicion on that gapped an opportunity to make a safe vote and thus maybe be perceived innocentish

People that does not make much sense:

Brinniel: Talks about how a certain number of Representatives will give a more fair representation of our village (Which I may add is THE GREATEST VILLAGE ON EARTH). The problem with this is that if we settle for a number then we give more freedom of choice to those that votes the first where as the people who votes the last have very few candidates to chose from. It is just a bad idea to make these kind of restrictions.

The Phantom:

The Phantom: Is dedicated if nothing else. . . I don’t know what to think of him, he makes some very good contributions to our debate, but he also flood posts and in the end I do not know if I should give him a pad on the back or imbed an ax in it. I guess it comes down to the fact that I cannot remember if I ever lived in the same village as "Fantomet" before, so I am not quite sure as what to expect from him other than something that w[/FONT]

Nerwen

11-14-2008, 07:17 AM

Ilya: Makes a post about McCabber being a no trace kill and she is right, but I am not quite sure how to interpret it. Clearly it is not a wolfish scheme to fool us and it could very well just be an innocent stating the obvious because they lack anything else to stay, but want to contribute. It could also be a wolf unsure on what to do, who to cast suspicion on that gapped an opportunity to make a safe vote and thus maybe be perceived innocentish

Okay... Rune, your English is slipping in that last sentence, I'm afraid, so I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Please clarify... because I'm mildly uneasy about Ilya, and I'd like to know what other people think about her.

As for stating the obvious– not a scheme to fool us, no, but you might describe it as "filler" posting. Though she is a newbie, so I guess it might not seem as obvious to her anyway.

Brinniel does the same thing later, which again has me worried a bit, because it does seem rather like deliberate "misdirected answering". That is, it had been said several times by then that McCaber was a safe kill, and the question was why were the wolves playing it so safe?

Nerwen

11-14-2008, 07:31 AM

Brinniel and morm, you both say you want a fixed number of representatives, but have you given any thought as to how we would choose this number?

Brinniel

11-14-2008, 08:14 AM

The problem with this is that if we settle for a number then we give more freedom of choice to those that votes the first where as the people who votes the last have very few candidates to chose from. It is just a bad idea to make these kind of restrictions.

But isn't that always how it is? Whether it's for a rep or a lynch, the first voters choose whoever they want and the last voters are more limited in choices because if everyone chose someone different we would get nowhere. Now in voting for reps, the votes can be more spread out since only two votes are needed to make a rep which does give us more room to choose. But if everyone had a different opinion on who they wanted as a rep (or also the same) and voted whatever way they wanted regardless of previous votes, we could end up with very few reps. Because whatever the number of reps ends up being, I think it's better to have a larger number than smaller one. If everyone voted for the same reps or no one voted for the same and we ended up with a small number like 3 or 4, then it would not be very balanced...especially if a wolf's among them. So to prevent that, the later voters have to compromise and have some sort of restrictions.

Brinniel and morm, you both say you want a fixed number of representatives, but have you given any thought as to how we would choose this number?
I never said a fixed number, I said I had a preferred number. And quite honestly, there's no way to make a number set as like I said, everyone has their own agenda. Personally, I'd like to see a number in proportion to the village population and when I vote I'll keep that in mind....but there's nothing I can do to make others do the same.

Ugh, maybe I should just give up on trying to even argue this. No one seems to get me. :rolleyes:

That is, it had been said several times by then that McCaber was a safe kill, and the question was why were the wolves playing it so safe?
I was stating him as a no trace kill because I think that's more likely than say the wolves believing him a possible seer. Anyways, the problem with no trace kill is that it's difficult to figure out who would've chosen him...that's the whole point of it. If I had time, I would take a look at who would more likely make a safe kill than not but I'm running late for class...

the phantom

11-14-2008, 08:18 AM

Well, often enough nobody looks particularly Seerish (from the lupine point-of-view) on Day One... but with all the posting yesterDay, you'd think someone would have fitted the bill.
That's what I was thinking.
As I said, though, the other thing is that McCaber would have been perfect to keep around as a lynch candidate
Indeed. Coming into today I was prepared to paint him as suspicious looking, and I think there were others who would have agreed.

Of course it doesn't say much for our suspicions at this point. :rolleyes:
I don't understand why thinking about having a goal number of reps is weird...to me it's quite logical.
Okay.... Let's see if I can explain why I found it suspicious.

It's as if you're setting up a certain number as a goal, and that becomes the priority rather than choosing someone you've been leaning towards all day, or choosing someone you said you trust, or choosing a Rep that everyone agrees is innocent.

In other words, if it can be established that we should have a certain number, then you can fall back on that as an excuse to pick someone. Not that you can't always pick anyone for any excuse, but I felt that you were trying to, ahead of time, set up an excuse for doing something different.

Make sense?

EDIT: x-posted Brin

Aganzir

11-14-2008, 08:28 AM

Somehow it seems these rep-selecting days are always quite busy for me. I'm going to see some friends in the evening so I have to vote in something like three hours. Will have more time tomorrow though.

Agan, you made a case against Lommy. Have the spine to admit it. You listed Lommy as guilty and have gone after her, that's a case. Don't try to play it off like you really didn't mean anything by quoting Lommy repeatedly, post after post, and play it off like Lommy is being over-defensive.
I understood that Greenie was referring only to my list of players as a case, which it wasn't. I tend to divide players into categories while making lists, but that doesn't mean more than saying, "X is suspicious because of Y," on an alphabetical list, and I wouldn't consider it a case yet.
However, I have no problem admitting that my suspicions against Lommy were gradually turning into a case by the time I saw her response to my earlier accusations of her, to which I also replied in that very same post of mine as where I had the list.

And now you're backing off, after a couple people say Lommy is looking genuinely frustrated (i.e. makes her look innocent)? Trying to seperate yourself from someone you wanted to get lynched?
I think I have made it clear since the beginning that as I always suspest Lommy, I don't know how much value I should put on my suspicions. Between my quarrel with her and the post which I believe you consider the "backing off" post, only Shasta said anything about her and me (=that we look like brawling innocents), and I wouldn't call it a couple people. Besides I would never ever back off of people I suspect without a good reason, as which a few people saying someone looks innocent doesn't count.
In my opinion Lommy's frustration looked more innocent than wolfish. Maybe I underestimate her but I believe she would have got rather jumpier if she's a wolf.

When you want to talk to somebody, and he tells you he is in work uninterruptedly since 8 AM till 11 AM, are you going to invite him for a coffee at 10 AM, hoping that it will give you a chance to talk to him? Does it make sense? Really, I don't know what to think of what you say. You make no sense at all.
Well I don't think I said I don't have time, but that it's no use to expect I'd be around till deadline.

Exaggeration! How can you build a case upon that? Really, this seems like really building up a case out of nothing. In Czech we say "sucking it out of your finger", I am not sure of any good equivalent. Simply, making it up out of nothing.
I was building my case on a bad feeling which some things just seemed to back up very well!

Agan backed off of Lommy in a way that parroted what a lot of other people said. Dunno what I think about that.
Could you point out to me how I parroted what other people had said about Lommy.

I'm mildly uneasy about Ilya, and I'd like to know what other people think about her.
The last sentence that was stuck in my head before I fell asleep last night was "Ilya's vote for Legate and her way of casting suspicion on me were fishy."

The things I want to do before I leave is
1) take a look at how people reacted to me & Lommy's little quarrel
2) take a look at Ilya
3) take a look at Nerwen
4) take a look at Ka.
Not sure if I have time for them all, though.

edit: xed with Brinn & phantom

Boromir88

11-14-2008, 08:29 AM

Sorry, Boro, but it would be improper to do a read-through on everyone except you.~the phantom
That is precisely why I'm quite comfortable with assuming your innocence. Don't you see? Not only are you doing your homework on a couple people within a certain classification, but you're doing your homework on everyone. No matter how daunting the task is, I just wish we could get someone on here who can do the work on you.

the phantom

11-14-2008, 08:30 AM

I guess it comes down to the fact that I cannot remember if I ever lived in the same village as "Fantomet" before, so I am not quite sure as what to expect from him
I understand. It's the same with my view of you.
But if everyone had a different opinion on who they wanted as a rep (or also the same) and voted whatever way they wanted regardless of previous votes, we could end up with very few reps.
But do you think that would ever happen? Or if it did, what is so disasterous about having few Reps? It really puts them on the spot, doesn't it?
Because whatever the number of reps ends up being, I think it's better to have a larger number than smaller one. If everyone voted for the same reps or no one voted for the same and we ended up with a small number like 3 or 4, then it would not be very balanced...especially if a wolf's among them.
So we have to balance out the Wolves? But how do we know two of our Reps weren't WWs yesterday? Or three even?
So to prevent that, the later voters have to compromise and have some sort of restrictions.
The word "restrictions" is the last thing I want to hear when speaking of government. ;)

the phantom

11-14-2008, 08:34 AM

That is precisely why I'm quite comfortable with assuming your innocence. Don't you see? Not only are you doing your homework on a couple people within a certain classification, but you're doing your homework on everyone.
Ah, well, glad to hear it!

I'm starting work on you now. If we're lucky I'll still see you as innocent and we can hunt the WWs together. :)
No matter how daunting the task is, I just wish we could get someone on here who can do the work on you.
Heh heh heh... Yeah, that would be quite a job.

And good to see Agan. Speak your mind, dearie, for today I trust you.

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-14-2008, 08:43 AM

Okay... Rune, your English is slipping in that last sentence, I'm afraid, so I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Please clarify... because I'm mildly uneasy about Ilya, and I'd like to know what other people think about her.

As for stating the obvious– not a scheme to fool us, no, but you might describe it as "filler" posting. Though she is a newbie, so I guess it might not seem as obvious to her anyway.

Brinniel does the same thing later, which again has me worried a bit, because it does seem rather like deliberate "misdirected answering". That is, it had been said several times by then that McCaber was a safe kill, and the question was why were the wolves playing it so safe?

Slipping. . .bah. . .this is what happens when you write a post as the first thing after you wake up. Not only was I sleepy, but I was also under time pressure. (University demanding my time)
That being said; my written english is quite bad.

What I ment was: It could be that Ilya is a wolf who is unsure about what to do and therefor decides to state the obvious and seem helpful/innocent.

Thinlómien

11-14-2008, 08:49 AM

McCaber's dead?
I have an explanation no one has not offered yet and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the correct one.

I think he was killed because he didn't participate much. Some people tend to kill of non-contributing players on Night2 just to make the game more interesting and to be "fair". Also, some people avoid killing people they really enjoy playing with early on or feel bad about killing people who are obviously enjoying the game. (I'm not claiming it's unenjoyable to play with McCab but if he posts that little he doesn't give the sort of enjoyable vibe to anybody except those who despair at too long threads. ;))

Now, I will happily admit all the above goes for me. But as I'm not a wolf, I have to turn my glance elsewhere. Nogrod strikes me as a person who would suggest a kill like McC to his fellows. I could also see at least Agan, Nerwen, Boro and tp suggesting a kill like that, the ladies more than the gentlemen. And also someone else could come up with a kill like that - okay, almost anybody - so maybe this reasoning is not helping that much. But my gut reaction to Cabbie's death was "Ha! Nog's guilty!" I will try to resist that urge though. :rolleyes: After Legate being lynched yesterDay, I wouldn't like to see Nog go toDay unless there's something concrete against him.

Based on his vote against me yesterDay, I am inclined to think that Nogrod is innocent. It seems unlikely to me that a werewolf, having been voted into power, would proceed to risk alienating half of his constituency by trying to have them executed.I disagree. People's choices for reps will probably change every Day in about 90% of the cases, so there would be little harm in voting someone who voted you for rep, except that you may earn a personal enemy. And I don't think someone like Nog would care about that at all.

Oh, and given the chaotic nature of this game:

++No Filibuster

That should have been done yesterDay, if at all.

I have a bad feeling about the phantom.

Well, often enough nobody looks particularly Seerish (from the lupine point-of-view) on Day One...I managed to misread "Seerish" as "Swedish" and get mightily confused for a second or two... :D

I will have a look at late yesterDay's posts now and reply to some stuff (I will try to resist the temptation to go on quarreling with Agan, but I feel there were some points I just have to reply to), and comment. Right now I only feel like saying two things about that I'm not going to give my vote away for testing purposes again. That lynch was incredibly silly (or wolvish, have to see and determine which one), because (at least from my point of view) Legate looked more innocent than most others and because I think the flood of votes was rather sudden and doesn't quite fit with the amount of actual suspicions targeted against him.

edit: eek - xed with Brinn's #492 and everything after that