Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

A rider swept into the village one night carrying a package: he was directed to the home of the village scholar. He stayed only briefly, and then wasn’t seen again. The scholar spent the following days in seclusion, pouring over the parchments given to him, studying the plague of werewolves upon the world.

One day, about a week later, the scholar stepped forth from his home and called a town meeting.

“I know why people keep misdiagnosing lupine symptoms!” he cried to the people.

“Why?” they asked.

“It’s because the uneducated rabble are allowed a popular vote and we all know that they oughtn’t to be allowed to make such significant decisions when they’re merely uninformed blockheads!” he responded at full volume.

The people were rather offended. “Why shouldn’t we kill you for what you’ve just said?” they asked.

“Because I have a solution!” he cried.

“And that is?” asked a villager, eyebrow raised.

“Everybody will still get a vote,” he assured, to people’s relief, “but they will vote for the best and the brightest to represent their interests.”

His statement was met with blank stares.

He tried again. “The next time we have a problem with werewolves, witches, demons, vampires, or other unsavory sorts, rather than each villager picking who he wants to kill, each villager should choose somebody they believe to represent their best interests, and then the representatives chosen will put their smarter-than-average heads together and get us out of the mess.”

The villagers began to nod, some sooner than others, comprehending. One villager spoke up. “So instead of voting on issues, we vote on people to solve our issues for us?”

“Exactly! You delegate responsibility! It will simplify everything!” cried the scholar.

The village was dubious, but he was a scholar, and everybody knows that scholars are always right. Thusly the democratic village evolved into a wee bit of a republic overnight.

---

Players Amongst the Living:

Aganzir
Boromir88
Brinniel
Diamond18
Eönwë
Gil-Galad
Greenie
Gwathagor
Ilya
Legate
Lommy
Kath
McCaber
mormegil
Nerwen
Nogrod
Rune
Sally
Shasta
The Ka
the phantom


---

You are not yet allowed to post to this thread.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

With great communities based on semi-democratic decision making comes great responsibility and with great responsibility comes much paperwork describing every single way you take advantage of your position of power up to and including the number of sheets of paper you crumple in frustration while trying to compose a decent set of laws, arguments, or even simply empty statements.

I, President Fea, have crumpled two sheets thus far, and emptied two quills of ink.

You, the village, are angry. I understand this.

I do not write this to anger you more. I write this in order to withhold a transparent honest government.

My people, we as a village have a problem. Well, several, in fact.

One is that I’ve secretly been practicing a bit of insider trading with the likes of Mithalwen and Rikae which is why they are rather more well off than you filthy lot-

-But more importantly! We have wolves in our midst!

Wolves? Yes, wolves. Werewolves, and they mean us great harm.

What do I mean insider trading?

Trade of information, nothing more, I assure you it has nothing to do with you, really, nothing at all.

No, it did not relate to the taxes I’ve recently imposed upon you even though-

Dear heavens above, what honest village reporter discovered these facts?

Well, I suppose it is indeed best to be clear about-

PUT DOWN THAT PITCHFORK!

No, the werewolf situation and the corrupt government have nothing at all in common I assure you!

Rikae, look out behind you, it’s a villager. I know you can’t hear him, he speaks softly, but he carries a big stick and-

YOU UNEDUCATED RABBLE KILLED MY BUSINESS ASSOCIATE (and by ‘business associate’ of course I mean ‘fellow politician whose relationship with me and the village treasury is completely above board’)—

Mith, darling, careful, that’s a noose-

What ever happened to a fair trial by a jury of my peers?

What exactly, might I ask do you intend to do with your elected Representatives assassinated by the likes of yourselves, hm?

YOU NEED ME!

Do not step any closer or you will regret it, young man!

You intend to elect new Representatives every day as a means to avoid the stagnation of society as it occurs when one has been in power for far too long? Outlandish!

Step away from me and put down that knife!

I said back, rabble!

No!

Why you ungrateful little b—

---

Hello Mith. How are you, Rikae? I’d have sworn I just saw you die at the hands of the angry people—

Oh.



---


The Dead:

Fea
Mith
Rikae

The Living:

Aganzir
Boromir88
Brinniel
Diamond18
Eönwë
Gil-Galad
Greenie
Gwathagor
Ilya
Legate
Lommy
Kath
McCaber
mormegil
Nerwen
Nogrod
Rune
Sally
Shasta
The Ka
the phantom

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Look, proof there's an afterlife! For dirty politicians and their "business associates", anyway. Freedom!

[the phantom]

So if I'm reading that correctly, we killed our leaders.

Hmm... I'd say we're hardly "innocent" villagers at this point. It seems almost unfair to try and lynch Werewolves now. I mean... thus far we're the only ones who've done any killing.

[the phantom]

Ah, Shasta! I hope you've kept intact your ability to be right most of the time. It could be quite handy in the next few days.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Just call me Cassandra. :p Though that's changing thanks to Brinniel.

...And phantom takes an early post count lead. Surprise! :D

[the phantom]

As far as the filibuster goes, I would say that for now it would be a good idea to leave our options open.

In other words, don't filibuster now just for laughs, because you may wish later that you had saved it for a worthy cause.

And I'm certainly not going to vote against having a filibuster, for the more options Werewolves have available to them the more chances we'll have of spotting them. And then there's the argument for drama and entertainment- it would be quite fun to see a WW attempt to save another with a lengthy filibuster. It would be quite memorable.

[the phantom]

Just call me Cassandra.
Seriously? :D
...And phantom takes an early post count lead.
Har har. But I'm sure I'll be passed during the morning hours (sleep plus work).

[the phantom]

I bet if we made a list of suspects right now, before anyone has even started talking, we'd be just as accurate as we would be at sundown.

Encouraging thought, yes? :p

But I'm extremely excited about the whole vote-for-reps thing. There are so many possibilities! Even upon death (if I am so unfortunate) I will be following the village closely from beyond.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And I'm certainly not going to vote against having a filibuster, for the more options Werewolves have available to them the more chances we'll have of spotting them.

And the easier time they'll have of eating the village. I don't see the reason behind this at all, Phantom. :confused:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I bet if we made a list of suspects right now, before anyone has even started talking, we'd be just as accurate as we would be at sundown.

Encouraging thought, yes?

More like pessimistic thought, but sadly you're probably correct. :p

[the phantom]

Anyone have theories on the WW rep-voting behavior?

Give their power to one Wolf? Possible, but not the best option.

Ideally they'd each want to be a rep. But it is likely that they would wish to refrain from outright campaigning for voting power, as it might arouse suspicion. It would be safer to appear sane and reasonable and hope to garner at least one single vote from an innocent. Then if another WW tacks on his vote- presto! Instant rep!

So if each WW gets one rep-vote, they could circle vote for each other and hold eight votes in their paws. This would certainly be enough power to control the lynch.

But naturally there are less straighforward ways to operate...

[the phantom]

And the easier time they'll have of eating the village. I don't see the reason behind this at all, Phantom.
What I mean is, we leave the option open and then dare them to try it.

I agree that the filibuster is more likely to work to their advantage seeing as they are the only villagers with concrete knowledge at this point. Besides the Seer, but I doubt the Seer would risk a filibuster so early. Because the use of a filibuster would indicate a stronger than average read on guilt/innocence.

I would be unlikely to use a filibuster to trade one life for another because frankly I don't feel strongly enough about anyone. Why would you use a filibuster unless you know something? Which points to WWs and the Seer of course.

Though later in the game perhaps an Ordo will get a strong read on someone. But there will always be the nagging doubt, which might perhaps be strong enough to discourage someone from taking such strong action, and spending so much time on it.

[the phantom]

Here's a question- who gets lynched if there are no reps to vote on the lynching?

If each person were to grant their voting power to the person above them on the list, no one would gain two votes. Thus there would be no voters for the second half. What would happen then? Random lynch? Nothing?

[mormegil]

Can somebody, *looks at the phantom* fill me in on exactly what the purpose of the fillibuster is? I'm not sure I understand the concept fully. I mean I get it in RL but I'm trying to make sense of it in our arena.

Anyway, I was thinking that perhaps we should try to come to some consensus on how many representatives we would like to have. Would it be best to spread it around...I think the maximum would be 10 at this stage. Or would we like to keep it a little bit smaller around 4 or 5. I think 2 or 3 would be rather foolish at this stage and would limit some of the information we could gather later on when things become a bit clearer.

[mormegil]

Here's a question- who gets lynched if there are no reps to vote on the lynching?

If each person were to grant their voting power to the person above them on the list, no one would gain two votes. Thus there would be no voters for the second half. What would happen then? Random lynch? Nothing?

My guess is we would have no representatives and therefore no votes on who would be lynched, ergo no lynch. I don't see that there would be any usefulness in that so why would you bring it up? It only seems to benefit the wolves.

[the phantom]

Can somebody, *looks at the phantom* fill me in on exactly what the purpose of the fillibuster is?
All right.

Let's say that I strongly suspect you are the Seer, and that Shasta is a WW.

Shasta has just pulled ahead in the voting with one hour left, but two reps still have to vote, and one of them is leaning towards voting for you.

And so in order to save you and ensure Shasta's demise, I leap in and declare a filibuster, and proceed to post every two minutes on a specific topic until the deadline arrives.

By doing this I block that other rep from voting for you and Shasta is lynched instead.

Sound good?

[McCaber]

I'm here for the first day. How awesome is that? Very awesome.

If each person were to grant their voting power to the person above them on the list, no one would gain two votes. Thus there would be no voters for the second half. What would happen then? Random lynch? Nothing?
Interesting question. I would have to guess nothing would happen, much like in a state senate.

EDIT: crossed with the phantom

[the phantom]

My guess is we would have no representatives and therefore no votes on who would be lynched, ergo no lynch. I don't see that there would be any usefulness in that so why would you bring it up?
I'm just curious. We've never had this sort of village before, so I would just like to know the possibilities, no matter if they're useless or unlikely to occur.

[Brinniel]

Anyway, I was thinking that perhaps we should try to come to some consensus on how many representatives we would like to have. Would it be best to spread it around...I think the maximum would be 10 at this stage. Or would we like to keep it a little bit smaller around 4 or 5. I think 2 or 3 would be rather foolish at this stage and would limit some of the information we could gather later on when things become a bit clearer.
I think it's reasonable to have the number of reps proportional to the number of players. 1/3 of us would be 7 reps. Or 1/4 would be 5 or 6 reps. I don't think we should have any more or any less than that. Especially less...with less reps I think there is more room for error, particularly if one of those reps turned out to be a wolf. We should be careful not to spread the votes out too much. I know in previous Days half the village has received votes before. Of course those were votes to lynch, so the voting patterns here might turn out differently.

[the phantom]

Anyway, I was thinking that perhaps we should try to come to some consensus on how many representatives we would like to have.
Seriously? Must we have a plan?

I figured we would simply let the chips fall where they may. Perhaps we'll end up with seven reps with two votes each, or maybe three reps with five votes each. Whatever. Why not just wing it?

[Ilya]

It all depends on how much weight we want the reps to have. A rep with 4 votes behind him/her apparently has more power than a rep with only two. So it's the Virginia plan versus the New Jersey plan all over again. If we decide consciously we want to have a smaller number of reps, we also better make sure we give them the same amount of weight, but then I'm a NJ girl from way back. Or, you know, wing it. That too.

As to the filibuster, it seems like it would either be the seer's province, or someone suspected trying to save themselves during the final voting phase. Of course, it suits the wolves best so it seems like it would be a rare thing.

[the phantom]

Why not just wing it?
Or, you know, wing it.
I like you already, Ilya. ;)

[the phantom]

The more I think about it, the more I think we should not have any set target for number of reps. I mean, is that really the sort of government we want to set up here? Regulations, rules, must do this, must do that.... How about a little freedom?

Next thing you know we'll be ordering Gwath to give up his guns. :D

[mormegil]

Thank you tp for explaining that, it makes a lot of sense now. As far as having a plan, no we don't need one, but some of us like one. I would like some structure to our procedings.

I think, at least on Day 1, I am going to select somebody I have a history with and generally trust. There are sufficient candidates here that would meet my criteria of being somebody I trust and somebody who I think is accurate and critical. Boro, Diamond, Nog and tp would probably top that list. I fear that when I wake up int he morning I will be so innundated with posts I will have some difficulty catching up in this large of a village.

[the phantom]

Anyway, I was thinking that perhaps we should try to come to some consensus on how many representatives we would like to have.
Must you use that word? I recall the words of a famous politician-

"Consensus is the absence of leadership".

:p

[mormegil]

The more I think about it, the more I think we should not have any set target for number of reps. I mean, is that really the sort of government we want to set up here? Regulations, rules, must do this, must do that.... How about a little freedom?

Next thing you know we'll be ordering Gwath to give up his guns. :D

How about freedom within defined limits?;)

[the phantom]

I fear that when I wake up int he morning I will be so innundated with posts I will have some difficulty catching up in this large of a village.
Indeed. Only when I wake up I won't really have time to post much, so my catching up will need to be done more around noon. So I'll be reading 11 hours or so worth of gabbing. It'll take me all afternoon. :eek:

Not that I can complain. I'm hardly making things easy on others. But hey- I didn't join this village to cover my mouth and look around.

[satansaloser2005]

Must you use that word? I recall the words of a famous politician-

"Consensus is the absence of leadership".

:p

Says the loudmouth with over HALF the posts on the thread so far. :eek::Merisu:



Just stopping by to check in. (Had a lovely nap, in case you're interested.) I think I'll probably vote for a rep today that I've played with a lot and that I trust to make a fairly good Day One lynch vote guess. (Good gravy, I think I just parroted Morm and didn't realize it. Random.) Today I think all heck is going to break loose, but after the first couple days I think we should pick out maybe six or eight players (though not necessarily the same number each day....don't want to be too rigid in our proceedings, after all) and each person can, say, put up a list of who they suspect and who they'd like to see as a rep, and we can go from there?


EDIT: x'd with Morm and even more Phantom-y goodness.

[the phantom]

How about freedom within defined limits?
That sounds fine for the rest of you. But I would like complete freedom. Does that sound fair? We'll make rules and enforce them unevenly.

Like the speed limit. Does it really make sense that an individual with poor eyesight, poor coordination, poor reaction time, and poor judgement is allowed to go the same maximum speed as me?

Let's not make the same mistakes in this village that have been made elsewhere. :cool:

[the phantom]

How awesome is that? Very awesome.
Grrr... I was going to answer that question, but then you go and answer it before giving me the chance. You're really killing this conversation.

[the phantom]

I've got to say morm, I feel rather threatened by your avatar. Is it really appropriate to have a gun-toting monkey at a polling place? It might, how should I say this... influence people to see your side of things.

[Ilya]

Next thing you know we'll be ordering Gwath to give up his guns.
Gwath has guns? We can have weapons? I like this game so much better now.

Honestly I'm fine with letting this round happen as free-flowing democracy. None of us have any bearings right now. As the game goes on, though, it would be a good idea to have a method to empowering reps, which would mitigate a charismatic wolf from ruling the representatives.

Phantom, as long as you're in the room, the conversation will never die.

[McCaber]

Grrr... I was going to answer that question, but then you go and answer it before giving me the chance. You're really killing this conversation.
Not killing, per se, but merely trying to reign it in. Someone's got to think of the Europeans here, you know.

I'm actually in favor of having around seven reps as a target number. As of right now, I have no idea who I will choose to represent me, though. I feel that's a choice I need to make without any hostile influences.

[McCaber]

I've got to say morm, I feel rather threatened by your avatar. Is it really appropriate to have a gun-toting monkey at a polling place? It might, how should I say this... influence people to see your side of things.
What do you care, you're a ghost? If anything the gun-toting monkey should be afraid of you.

[the phantom]

and each person can, say, put up a list of who they suspect and who they'd like to see as a rep, and we can go from there?
Now I can certainly agree with this. Lists of suspicion and trust are always good, as it keeps people from sliding by and going where the wind blows.

Not that we can have very good lists at this point on Day 1.

Oh well. I'll make one anyway.

Aganzir- She's a Werewolf, but I plan to help her win anyway.
Boromir88- An extremely terrifying Ordo.
Brinniel- Not a Werewolf. At least according to the odds.
Diamond18- Whatever I say she is, she'll be the opposite. You watch.
Eönwë- The herald of Manwe couldn't be a Werewolf. At least that's what he wants us to think.
Gil-Galad- Totally an Ordo. At least that's what my coin-flip said.
Greenie- I'd trust her as far as I can throw her. And she's pretty petite, so that's awfully far.
Gwathagor- The Seer! No, wait- that was another game.
Ilya- Has a very vowlish name. Is that suspicious?
Legate- He's going to kill us all.
Lommy- Harmless little penguin.
Kath- Big mean penguin! But still- a penguin.
McCaber- He's the Cobbler!
mormegil- Werewolf! But I like him anyway.
Nerwen- Has me totally confused. First she says she likes me, then she won't call...
Nogrod- He will soon clear things up for us. He's a smart one.
Rune- Very furry.
Sally- Will hunt the Wolves till her final breath!
Shasta- Will continue being right about Werewolves. This time because he is one, naturally.
The Ka- Not to be confused with A Ka. He is the one, and only.
the phantom- The secret Cobbler-Seer.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

All right.

Let's say that I strongly suspect you are the Seer, and that Shasta is a WW.

Shasta has just pulled ahead in the voting with one hour left, but two reps still have to vote, and one of them is leaning towards voting for you.

And so in order to save you and ensure Shasta's demise, I leap in and declare a filibuster, and proceed to post every two minutes on a specific topic until the deadline arrives.

By doing this I block that other rep from voting for you and Shasta is lynched instead.

Sound good?

Pfft. I can see already where this village is heading, phantom. :p

[the phantom]

which would mitigate a charismatic wolf from ruling the representatives.
Rats! That was my whole plan! :mad:
I have no idea who I will choose to represent me, though. I feel that's a choice I need to make without any hostile influences.
Pick me, or you die!
What do you care, you're a ghost? If anything the gun-toting monkey should be afraid of you.
Ah, I forgot! How silly of me.
Pfft. I can see already where this village is heading, phantom.
I only used you as an example, Shasta, I promise!

Frankly I feel that I owe you at least a day worth of protection after seeing you being so right and no one believing you. You deserve some payback.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Aganzir- A scary Ordo.
Boromir88- Obviously a wolf. :p
Brinniel- Innocent as innocent could be!
Diamond18- see Brinniel.
Eönwë- A confused Ordo.
Gil-Galad- A zombie!....Ordo.
Greenie- A quiet Ordo.
Gwathagor- The Ranger!... oh no wait, that was another game.
Ilya- A newbie Wolf! :eek:
Legate- Voted "Second Most Likely To Filibuster". What that means is anyone's guess.
Lommy- See Brinniel.
Kath- See Brinniel.
McCaber- showed up! Obviously a Wolf.
mormegil- A misguided Ordo.
Nerwen- The Seer, obviously. :D
Nogrod- Voted "Third Most Likely To Filibuster."
Rune- The Cobbler, obviously. *grin*
Sally- See Brinniel.
Shasta- The Seer/Ranger/Hunter/Ghost/Governor/Gambler. Obviously.
The Ka- A sneaky Ordo.
the phantom- You have to ask?

++Phantom

(^ does not count; is not highlighted, nor is it time to vote for lynching. I hate having to explain jokes to make sure they're not taken seriously, it takes all the fun out.)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Pick me, or you die!


Ahem! *taps foot* Who's the resident psychic around here? :p

[mormegil]

I must say that while he is usually fairly verbose tp seems a bit peppier than normal, almost silly which has me slightly worried. I tend to trust him because he is fairly serious and he seems genuine about helping if cocky and arrogant, but I get a feeling of silliness that could indicate that he knows more than the rest of us, if you know what I mean.

[Brinniel]

Shasta, I love how you made me the example of "innocent as innocent could be," plus you bolded my name four times. Boy do I feel special. :D

[mormegil]

Shasta, I love how you made me the example of "innocent as innocent could be," plus you bolded my name four times. Boy do I feel special. :D

Well I'm the only one labeled as misguided...I don't know whether to be slightly annoyed of genuinely offended...Hmph!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta, I love how you made me the example of "innocent as innocent could be," plus you bolded my name four times. Boy do I feel special. :D

Building up credits for the "right-hand-man-of-Brinniel-the-world-leader" position. ;)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well I'm the only one labeled as misguided...I don't know whether to be slightly annoyed of genuinely offended...Hmph!

Consider yourself "unique", morm. :D

[the phantom]

Pick me, or you die!
Ahem! *taps foot* Who's the resident psychic around here?
Oh... sorry...

Pick Shasta, or you die!
that could indicate that he knows more than the rest of us, if you know what I mean.
Hush, morm! Do you want the Wolves to kill me tonight?! I've only had one dream so far!
Shasta, I love how you made me the example of "innocent as innocent could be," plus you bolded my name four times. Boy do I feel special.
Gah! He's buttering you up so you taste better later. Run for it, Brin!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Gah! He's buttering you up so you taste better later. Run for it, Brin!


Sob. You're so hurtful. :(

[McCaber]

Just because I'm here doesn't automatically make me a wolf. I mean, I've slacked off as a wolf plenty of times. Not only the last one but the one where Rikae ranted for days at everyone and we pulled off the win for a dramatic finish. I didn't even show up for the last day on that one.

And I find the Cobbler remarks classist.

EDIT: crossed with a lot of people. I think I'm going to stop marking it until it actually counts.

[the phantom]

Just because I'm here doesn't automatically make me a wolf.
Thank goodness. I was worried that everyone here was a Wolf.

So showing up doesn't indicate Werewolf then. Then I guess the opposite must be true.

Lynch the people that aren't here! They're Werewolves!

Or asleep. But then that's suspicious too. Who could sleep at a time like this?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Clearly, Werewolves are European in descent. :D

[the phantom]

I must say that while he is usually fairly verbose tp seems a bit peppier than normal, almost silly
Yes, yes, sorry about that. I'm just excited to be playing. :)

When I wake up in the morning groggy and grumpy you can expect my play style to change a bit.

Though by evening I might be back to this. We'll see. Much of it depends on what I see from others. Come crunch time I'm likely to be much less silly.

[Brinniel]

Gah! He's buttering you up so you taste better later. Run for it, Brin!
Are you calling Shasta my Wormtongue? :p

[Brinniel]

Current post count:

the phantom: 23
Shasta: 11
mormegil: 6
McCaber: 4
Brinniel: 3
Ilya : 2
Sally: 1

Obviously the phantom has CPD, better known as Compulsive Posting Disorder.

If anyone ever dares to attempt a post-by-post analysis of tp, my hat's off to you. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Gah! He's buttering you up so you taste better later. Run for it, Brin!
Are you calling Shasta my Wormtongue?
No, no... I was implying that you look good enough to eat.

*winks at Brin*
Clearly, Werewolves are European in descent.
Now despite the joke, this is actually a serious matter regarding voting. Will timezones impact who we wish to select as reps? Is there an advantage to having reps around at the deadline? Or reps who vote early?

[the phantom]

If anyone ever dares to attempt a post-by-post analysis of tp, my hat's off to you.
Heh heh... That's why I talk so much, naturally. To discourage people from going back and researching me. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Heh heh... That's why I talk so much, naturally. To discourage people from going back and researching me. :p

Aha, and the truth will out. :p

[satansaloser2005]

Heh heh... That's why I talk so much, naturally. To discourage people from going back and researching me.

Good fodder for a future fillibuster though. I mean, I'm sure someone besides Phantom could talk about him(self) for several hours. :p

[the phantom]

Good fodder for a future fillibuster though. I mean, I'm sure someone besides Phantom could talk about him(self) for several hours.
You should've left the "self" off of there. It would amuse me beyond belief to see someone filibuster with me as the subject. No doubt it would be insulting most of the time. But still- even bad press is good for name recognition. :D

Thank goodness. I'm finally getting sleepy. I have to wake up for work in a few hours, so I'd like to get some sleep. I won't be posting for much longer.

*mass cheering*

[the phantom]

From page 1-
Anyone have theories on the WW rep-voting behavior?
So- anyone? Thoughts?

What do you think will be attempted? What would you do if given the chance? What would you be afraid to do?

Should we even try to foil likely plots, or allow for them and catch them in the act? That's what I would lean towards hence my support for keeping all of the options open.

*starts getting ready for bed*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

From page 1-

So- anyone? Thoughts?

What do you think will be attempted? What would you do if given the chance? What would you be afraid to do?

Should we even try to foil likely plots, or allow for them and catch them in the act? That's what I would lean towards hence my support for keeping all of the options open.

*starts getting ready for bed*

Why so anxious for us to give the wolves ideas, Phantom?

[Nerwen]

That sounds fine for the rest of you. But I would like complete freedom. Does that sound fair? We'll make rules and enforce them unevenly.

Like the speed limit. Does it really make sense that an individual with poor eyesight, poor coordination, poor reaction time, and poor judgement is allowed to go the same maximum speed as me?

Does it make more sense to set a different speed limit for every driver? Really?

And now I believe I'll channel the spirit of out late, much lamented President:


Nerwen- The Seer, obviously. :D

*dramtic chords*
*removes mask*

Well picked, Shasta. I am indeed the Seer, and if the real Seer tries to tell you any different, remember that he or she has a vested interest.:cool:

Shasta and tp are wolves, of course. Or perhaps Shasta and Brinniel. Their strategy is obvious: they're going to be extremely friendly to each other... just because we all know wolves would never be that obvious, don't we?:Merisu:

I have spoken.

*vanishes*

[Diamond18]

++No Filibuster

Because.

Just because.

So there.

Also, tp is a werewolf because it would amuse Fea to make him one. I'm sure of this.

In case anyone is interested, I will not be around at the deadline for choosing Reps but I will be around at the deadline for lynching someone. Unless my roommate needs to use the internet. But still, I'm here for you. I have your best interests at heart, and I won't lynch anyone who votes for me. At least not on Day 1. You can be sure I'll try to lynch you all the next time I get a chance, because obviously anyone who votes for a Rep just on the promise of not being lynched is a werewolf.

Now that that plot is explained, no one will vote for me. Unless you want to point out that you wouldn't be so bold as to vote for me when I pointed out that voting for me is wolfish. Or wolvish, if you want to be all Tolkieny about it. But really, just vote for me. I'm going to try to get phantom lynched. Because Fea would make him a wolf, and you know it.

I also will not ever edit my posts to say who I x'ed with, or crossed with, or xcrossed with, because that's annoying.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, tp is a werewolf because it would amuse Fea to make him one. I'm sure of this.


I really wanted to say that in my first post but was afraid Fea would yell at me. :(

Nerwen - Really, I pick you out as the Seer and you immediately call me a wolf? Where's the love? :(

[Gwathagor]

Hi everyone. I am reading, but have nothing to contribute yet.

[Diamond18]

I say things that others are afraid to say. Another reason why I make a stellar Rep. Or maybe it's the only reason. I'm not clear on that yet. I need a campaign strategist, I wonder if I can find one in the Yellow Pages.

[THE Ka]

I'm here for the first day. How awesome is that? Very awesome.


Awh, so modest.

Don't take it so hard on yourself though, I only was able to join in the end for the 48 hour days. Finally, I can play ww and go to work! Life makes a little more sense again.

The Ka- Not to be confused with A Ka. He is the one, and only.


Oh! You figured it out.:) We decided to trade titles every millenia. The poor guy is so modest he feels wracked by any sort of lime light. Last time we talked he mentioned something about using the 'anonymus' concept or something. So far it seems to be working out for him, people love a good mystery.

Unless you were just talking about my ol'self, except, *looks over m'self* I'm sorry to disappoint your expectations. I just don't have the right equipment to be a 'male'. In the first, second or third person.:Merisu:

If we decide consciously we want to have a smaller number of reps, we also better make sure we give them the same amount of weight, but then I'm a NJ girl from way back.

Good point, we don't want too many California's and Texas' running about when us 'only one or two' electorial voters are trying to make the little man heard.

Though, I think that equal weight rule is already in play according to our Mods.
Two votes for one rep is the same weight for someone who likes to flaunt ten, the requirement is that you at least have two votes.
... Unless the rules changed from whence in the admin thread? I'm not sure, and if someone does know, don't feel prudish over correcting it.


Aganzir- A scary Ordo.
The Ka- A sneaky Ordo.


*sigh* Aganzir, it looks like we're in a dead heat in the: "Sneaky Scary Idol: Scar or Kaa?" Contest again... Don't worry, I'll vote for you of course.

~ The, A, Who cares? Ka

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Murder, murder
In the night air!
Murder, murder
It's a nightmare!
Murder, murder
It's a right scare!
Bloody murder
In the night!

Murder, murder
Makes your heart thump!
Murder, murder
Makes your nerves jump!
Murder, murder
Makes your blood pump!
Bloody murder
In the night!

.......Sorry, I've been obsessed with this song lately, and it seems to fit Werewolf very well. :)

[Boromir88]

Pick me, or you die!~the phantom
The only thing that's stopping me from choosing you Master phantom is you have mithril in your skull. Once you're set, aint nothing getting through that head of yours. I could say I'm the seer, I could be killed and be proven to be the seer, and tell you Mac's a wolf, but if that goes against your intellectual fiber you will still argue his innocence.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Fellow Villagers,

Have you noticed? Mr. Phantom is already testing his skills on filibustering. All we have seen until now is but the beginning. He was obviously trying, throughout the first page, whether he can manage it. We are lucky that he can do it only once. Of course, the filibustering may do good to our cause, if he is stopping the votes from going the wrong way. But, with all honesty, all he will do is that he will be stopping the votes from going the way that seems wrong for him. Thankfully, we have democracy here. But once he starts talking - if it is around the DL - it will be all only upon the people in the West. Us, Europeans, will be sleeping. But this is not just Americans, Europeans, Australians and whoever else may appear in this mixture - we are all one village! We are all Villagers! And it is only about us who stand against the threat of those lurking among us, who call themselves Villagers, but their intentions are hideous and abhorrent! And this is why there will be no Americans or Europeans for me, I won't just "let those behind the Sea eat this in the morning hours", I will stand by the side of those who prefer freedom of speech and freedom of vote without being restrained by some Phantom-a-likes.

Therefore,

++No Filibuster

Don't worry. I know it may be fun to have filibustering, and I say, all right. I am also for trying it some day. But not today. We need a smooth start, so that we can get the ship of state rolling. (Hm. An awkward formulation.)

And one thing to make it clear. Mr. P. is not getting my vote as a Representative, no way. He was even so daring to put these words of mine into his signature, which keeps showing all the thread long, because he cannot just keep his mouth shut. But we are all Villagers! We all have the right to speak, and not listen to just one demagogue, who would prefer to do filibuster every Day just after he votes, if only the Rules allowed it. Luckily for us, they don't.

It's been enough of self-nominated leaders, who vote only according to their own whims. It's been enough of demagogues, of amateurs whose votes more harmed the village than they helped it. Therefore, make your Representative somebody whom you can trust to make at least a honest decision. Who will not deceive you. I am not saying, vote this or that one. I am leaving this on your good reasoning, which I belive, most of you have. The Wolves may vote for their own Representative to get him there - if they are four, they can get two Representatives there by voting together. But that will be very risky. Yes, it is possible, if not probable, that a Wolf or two will get among the Representatives on the first Day with support of the villager's votes. I am not closing my eyes before it. And it is good, I say, yes. Because if a Wolf gets into the representation, he or she will have to choose. He could not stand behind and hide, but he would have to make a responsible decision. And this is where we can find them, catch them. And later, on the next Day, lynch them.

This is not saying, vote as Representatives those who seem wolfy to you. No way! Don't worry, they will get themselves in just "naturally". They don't need your help. But what I say is, do not judge the possibility of them becoming Representatives as only bad. It can serve us, even - for now. Of course, as the Days go by, we need to be more and more careful, for the less people, and the less Representatives, the more dangerous may the balance of power in the Council be. But for now, a good middle number of Representatives - let's say 5, 6 or such - would be enough to prevent the Wolves have too much power in the final voting, even if they got there (for I don't believe more than let's say two would get in there). But let each vote according to his own best conscience and reasons, and we will see how things are going to turn. From there, we can learn for the Days to come.

That is it, fellow Villagers. I am leaving for now, but will be back. Use the following six hours in good manner. And think about what is best for your Village.

[Boromir88]

Legate's ringing ye olde suspect alarm. Your attack against a filibuster just seems too creepy. I mean really all I'd expect is something like Diamond...No filibuster because it's silly. But you use it as a weapon of fear:

I will stand by the side of those who prefer freedom of speech and freedom of vote without being restrained by some Phantom-a-likes.

And one thing to make it clear. Mr. P. is not getting my vote as a Representative, no way.
Playing a part, or hiding behind your part, Legate?

[Boromir88]

Luckily Form hasn't graced us with his presense in this village, he'd have two day 1's to harp about.

Why so anxious for us to give the wolves ideas, Phantom?~Shasta
Let's see what our options are...either do what the phantom says, or we continue to play with and throw a bunch of bull crap at eachother (literal and figurative). I'd prefer the former.

[the phantom]

Why so anxious for us to give the wolves ideas, Phantom?
Because I'm the Cobbler! Mwu ha ha!

But seriously, I just want to know the lines that people are thinking along. It helps me get to know them.
Does it make more sense to set a different speed limit for every driver? Really?
Well maybe not for everyone, but they should at least have the decency to make a different one for me. :)

And Di- no filibuster? I never would've expected such an early stand on the issue from you.
Also, tp is a werewolf because it would amuse Fea to make him one.
Yeah, they always say that when I'm in one of Fea's games.

And guess what? It's never happened.

Just fyi, I was a WW in the last game I played. And in the game before that I was a Wizard. And it is possible that I requested specifically to be an Ordo in this village in hopes that it would cause the village to take up less of my time. Just food for thought.

Ah, Ka, quite right- I left the "s" off of that pronoun, didn't I? Won't happen again.
Once you're set, aint nothing getting through that head of yours.
Yeah, yeah... I know. But often times that is good, as it keeps me from being led astray.
all he will do is that he will be stopping the votes from going the way that seems wrong for him.
Yes, Legate, that's exactly what a filibuster is. Stopping things from going a way that you don't think is favorable. So the fact that I would use a filibuster for its precise purpose hardly seems like news worth reporting.

[the phantom]

Legate's ringing ye olde suspect alarm.
Indeed.

You go in my good book for today, for thinking similarly.

Now- off to work. I'll be back in about five hours and should be around the rest of the day.

[Boromir88]

Yeah, yeah... I know. But often times that is good, as it keeps me from being led astray.~the phantom
I never said you didn't have a steel spine. When we need efficiency, and a tough choice, you execute and have the spine to face the Music. But sorry in a representative I don't want someone with their own mind, I want someone with my mind. If it just so happens that we follow the same path, well then you sir would be at the top of the list. Actually it would be more of just getting under Legate's skin and making enemies with 75% of my fellow congress people.

Before I forget...

++No filibuster

for me...realizing that we each only have one and I would hate to waste it. The temptation to be the first would be way too strong, I don't have the willpower of Gandalf to resist the urge. Or maybe I'm just not some washed up moral compass.

[Boromir88]

Oh also, I had just this really strange dream about filibusters last night, I was the last vote, and allowed a filibuster...then the phantom capitilized and blocked my vote.

[Thinlómien]

Hello everybody.

Anyone have theories on the WW rep-voting behavior?I think they might just lay low and vote innocents as representatives because it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway. :rolleyes:

Here's a question- who gets lynched if there are no reps to vote on the lynching?I would like to second those who said "no one". It seems obvious to me.

The more I think about it, the more I think we should not have any set target for number of reps.I agree with this. What purpose does a set number of representatives serve? No purpose that I can see.

I know it may be fun to have filibustering, and I say, all right. I am also for trying it some day. But not today. We need a smooth start, so that we can get the ship of state rolling.This is something I disagree with. If we really have to try filibustering, why not toDay when there's (probably) the least action and the smallest chance of lynching a wolf? It would do the least harm toDay, which is why I haven't voted against a filibuster yet. I don't like filibustering at all, I can't see it serving any purpose but chaos-creating (and maybe having fun, but we can have without an official filibuster, can't we?), but I understand it kind of has to be tried in this game, so I will let you children play with it today. ;)

Just fyi, I was a WW in the last game I played. And in the game before that I was a Wizard. And it is possible that I requested specifically to be an Ordo in this village in hopes that it would cause the village to take up less of my time. Just food for thought.Surely it's possible - I even recall you told me when we were wolves together that you'd have preferred to take it easy and be an ordo. But I don't like you bringing up this point at all. If you really did request so, it's rather unsporty of you to say it aloud. And if you didn't, that's a rather stupid trick. And at any rate, who says Fea would have fulfilled your request? :Merisu:

All in all, phantom makes me a little suspicious. He's too all over the place, he says some silly things and posts sometimes plain nonsense. Why?

Also, Diamond's overtly confident manner troubles me a little.

Others who have posted this far didn't ring any alarms on the first reading.


edit: xed with Borox2

[Boromir88]

Some words on voting and representatives...

The good news is we now get to look at twice the amount of votes (I have a feeling Nogrod's going to be busy). The bad news is, we now get to look at twice the amount of votes.

Because the truth is, I think I said something like this last time, votes are overrated. Personally, I hate them, any one, wolf or not, can manipulate their vote in whatever way they please. They are taken as such "hard evidence" when really, what's always served me the best has been reacting and striking conversation with people. I wish I had the phantom's spine, I'll tell you that.

So, phooey on the actual vote, they're overrated. The timing and placement of a person's vote, well now see that can unlock the Area 51 conspiracy.

[Nogrod]

77 posts before I even get online... I think I'm slowly getting to understand morm's usual whining about people posting a way too much in these games. :)

Some words on voting and representatives...

The good news is we now get to look at twice the amount of votes (I have a feeling Nogrod's going to be busy). The bad news is, we now get to look at twice the amount of votes.Whatever you Boro think about analysing the votes - which I myself have found many times the most enlightening thing to do - there will be the fact that in this game the nature of the votes for the representatives will be very different from the actual votes of the representatives themselves - and those votes to lynch will also be different from normal lynch-votes.

The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!

So I would call for giving independence to the representatives as if they only follow their voter's wishes they are not accountable on their votes for lynching. If you don't like the way your representative acted you should vote for a different one the next Day.

Which brings me to my thoughts about the way the wolves might think. That I think is somewhat an unproductive question as there are of course different wolves as there are players playing this game differently. As a wolf tp would like to fill the place, filibuster and manipulate from the bottom of his heart (does it have one?:eek:) while I could see someone else wishing to stay away from being elected a representative as it is a bit too open and windy place to be. So I'm afraid there's no clear pattern we could be trying to look after...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Playing a part, or hiding behind your part, Legate?
Not playing any part, actually. Formulated in more common talk, I am really not willing to give the phantom the post of a Representative - not now, at least. It is Day 1 and I am not only hanging on my previous promises, so to speak, but I am also unwilling to give votes to certain people as Reps, for now, and among them is Mr. P. for the simple reason that he's too wilful, to use the right adjective, that I won't give my fate into his hands - not yet, at least, until he is proven by the test of time. If he proves to work well for the intentions of this village, I am going to be the first one to nominate him. But for now, I am not ready yet to give my vote to him. That has nothing to do with his possible wolfishness or not, that works just for the best interests of the village as I see it. We need strong Representatives, who have the intentions of the people in mind, and not just their own.

I agree with this. What purpose does a set number of representatives serve? No purpose that I can see.
Setting up a number is of course nonsense, we cannot say "we will have X Representatives" and then try to make it the way that we end up with this number. But I think this talk about the numbers is not completely pointless, as it can help us stop and think for ourselves and giving us one more thing to consider when voting: "Okay, I want to vote either X or Y for a Rep, but I see we have already six Representatives who have two votes, and one of them is X. And by voting Y, I am about to bring another Rep there with my vote, but I don't want such a high number of Reps, so I will vote rather for X than for Y." Something like that, I hope you get the point (of course in the example I am leaving out the things about X possibly getting four votes etc, but the example was aimed just on the number of representatives).

This is something I disagree with. If we really have to try filibustering, why not toDay when there's (probably) the least action and the smallest chance of lynching a wolf? It would do the least harm toDay, which is why I haven't voted against a filibuster yet. I don't like filibustering at all, I can't see it serving any purpose but chaos-creating (and maybe having fun, but we can have without an official filibuster, can't we?), but I understand it kind of has to be tried in this game, so I will let you children play with it today. ;)
Well, yes, for fun, perhaps, but I presume there will be time when it will be used seriously, sooner or later (Wolves' effort to stop a vote, some Gifted's effort to save himself etc.). My point was that if we get stuck toDay, we'll start from nothing toMorrow, and then again... But hey, people don't have to agree with me. This is why we have democracy here :p

Because the truth is, I think I said something like this last time, votes are overrated. Personally, I hate them, any one, wolf or not, can manipulate their vote in whatever way they please. They are taken as such "hard evidence" when really, what's always served me the best has been reacting and striking conversation with people.
I think they might just lay low and vote innocents as representatives because it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway. :rolleyes:

The votes which are actually positive are A) the votes of the Wolves for the Representatives (e.g. when we have a known wolf and see his votes, or when we have a known wolf who was a Rep and we see who voted for him), B) the votes of the Representatives who are Wolves for the people - or the votes of anybody who is a Representative, for that matter. However, what Lommy said is worth considering, as it may be

A) either the way I said in my first post, and the Wolves would just try to manipulate the village
B) or what Lommy suggested, that the Wolves would just lay low and see how it goes, or just see the innocent Representatives lynch innocent people and laugh at it. That is a good point, and I find the possibility of this simply abhorrent. Although it is not as abhorrent as it seems, because:

There will most probably be some Wolves from the ranks of the more active players, who just could not keep their mouth shut and will get among the Representatives without own effort just because of their own popularity, thus, being brought into the spotlight the high politics bring one into;
I think some Wolves would at least find it unsettling to leave the resumée of who is lynched just on providence, sitting back when in the front there is a debate who is going to be lynched, may not be even bearable by one's nerves. Although, on the other hand, one can always press on fellow Reps to do this or that, it is not exactly the same as when you are sitting there.


(And for further reference, just preventively, if my expression seemed kind of theatral to somebody or whatever, know ye that all I say here is my personal opinion, maybe with a style a bit differing from common talk, but heck, we speak for the Republic here. I am sometimes using some phrases, but the meaning behind them stays - it is what I wish to convey. I just cannot resist to use kind of exalted language at times. But there is no more roleplay in my style than there is in a cup of coffee.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!

So I would call for giving independence to the representatives as if they only follow their voter's wishes they are not accountable on their votes for lynching. If you don't like the way your representative acted you should vote for a different one the next Day.

Yes, especially the second paragraph boldened and twice underlined!! Because, among other things, otherwise, all this complicated Rep-system would be worth nothing. End to demagogues and hypocritical "Men of the People"! When you are voted for a Representative, show your worth! When we already have this Republic here, so let it be worth it! And those who fail your trust, into the waste with them - you can vote somebody else! This is the point of this whole system, or so I gathered - so let it be used to its fullest, so that we have something from it!

[Nogrod]

It is clear enough that all the people with clear conscience - with the possible exception of the seer - will vote for a representative someone s/he thinks has a good judgement and can bring down a wolf or whom s/he thinks is a wolf that could slip under pressure being forced to make a decision on the lynch (or whom s/he would just like to find out in this game - as to see how s/he performs).

As I come to think of it, this game actually seems to favour the wolves as they can hide behind voting "just" for a representative and are thus not forced to vote every Day for a lynch, if not consistently voted a representative. Looking at the brighter side we will have twice the time to discuss things everyDay and the new dynamics might even help us here on the latter parts of the Day to counter the balance back.

But what will be something like a central issue in this game later on after we get some actual data of people behaving in different ways in different stuations & actually voting - and I'm looking forwards to it as it looks like a challenge indeed - is how we should judge the way the wolves will vote and how they will do it in the end.

(Hah, I said this was an unproductive topic and here I go... :rolleyes:)

[Ilya]

++No Filibuster So that's out of the way.

I have to go back and read the, like, 2,319 posts I missed, but it seems as though we do want to limit the number of reps for now. 7 seems a reasonable number to me, but then as phantom pointed out, my name is very vowelly.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It is clear enough that all the people with clear conscience - with the possible exception of the seer - will vote for a representative someone s/he thinks has a good judgement and can bring down a wolf or whom s/he thinks is a wolf that could slip under pressure being forced to make a decision on the lynch (or whom s/he would just like to find out in this game - as to see how s/he performs).
Obviously, only I would be very careful with that - but I am sure everyone realises: by voting anybody as a Representative, you are placing a responsibility on him, which is good, as you get to see how he acts; however, at the same time, you are giving him power - and possibly even over your own life (if we take this from the most self-centered point of view).
However, all this situation and the model of the game is too new for us, I think, that we have yet to explore the nuances and how actually various choices go and work and impact on the game here...

But what will be something like a central issue in this game later on after we get some actual data of people behaving in different ways in different stuations & actually voting - and I'm looking forwards to it as it looks like a challenge indeed - is how we should judge the way the wolves will vote and how they will do it in the end.

...which is exactly this. Indeed, the main device of the game now is exploring these possibilities the system gives us (and it is so exciting! I really like it). So, let's just see how this rolls on...

[Nogrod]

Also.

I'd say we should not shy away from actually trying to suspect people on this first Day as well even if there are a host of interesting new things to speculate upon. We should use the extra time we have to discuss things and to call for all the people to participate. You all know what democracy with 60% partake-rate (too many submarines) and not discussing the actual topics that influence our welfare (the identity of the werewolves) is. Just the "politics as usual" which will get us nowhere.

And just to prevent the all too usual protests: I'm not saying we have too many submarines right now. It's still possible that some Europeans have not gotten from work, study etc. But I truly wish all people will in the end of the Day have participated according to their resources. And I'm trying to encourage that.

I need to take a break now but will come back with hopefuly some more to the point thoughts on players thus far.

[Nogrod]

however, at the same time, you are giving him power - and possibly even over your own life.Curiosity killed the cat.. I know. :p

I wouldn't try that in the endgame but might well consider trying it on the early Days - knowledgeable of the risk involved. But as you said, we will have to see how this plays out.

[Kath]

I'm with Lommy on the filibustering issue ... oh, or I was until she just changed her mind. I think having a filibuster toDay wouldn't be too much of a problem - it would be a good chance to see how it works, and it would be better to test it out earlier rather than later.

I'm so intrigued by this idea of representatives. I want to see how it works. I think we do need some kind of limit so we don't end up with too many people but I don't think there is any way to control that so we'll just have to see how it goes toDay.

By the way am I right about it being a 4am deadline for GMT?

[Boromir88]

there will be the fact that in this game the nature of the votes for the representatives will be very different from the actual votes of the representatives themselves~Nogrod
I concede that as a point in your column, a person voting for a rep will hold different information than a rep casting a vote.

The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!~Nogrod
I disagree. I will pick someone who will represent my voice. Period. That doesn't mean we still can't hold people accountable for their own decisions, whether they said they were only going with their constituents or not. "Popular support" is a lame cop out, the person who best expresses their intentions, and his/her intentions fit best with mine, will be my representative. That's a heck of a lot different than me saying I'm going to pick the first person who will suck up to me, by agreeing with me, because you can't throw bull crap past this pig pen raker.

If he proves to work well for the intentions of this village, I am going to be the first one to nominate him.~Legate
What do you mean by "the intentions of this village?" Do you mean if the the phantom proves he means well in the sense that he can lead the village to lynching wolves? Or do you mean he will prove to serve your own sinister intentions?

I think they might just lay low and vote innocents as representatives because it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway.~Lommy
If you are speaking as far as Day 1's go, I would agree with that. However, a bold, no holding back wolf will not skirt away from a chance of being a representative and lead us all like sheep in lynching innocencts.

Edit: xed with everyone since's Nogrod's post #81

[Nogrod]

After this I really need to close the browser without refreshing it or I'll never get out from here...
it would be a good chance to see how it works, and it would be better to test it out earlier rather than later.Fea, just a general question. Can the filibuster only take place at the end of the lynch-vote by the representatives (as I've thought it is) or is it possible to filibuster even when choosing the representatives?

By the way am I right about it being a 4am deadline for GMT?
That's what I think it is (so 6AM here in Finland... :eek:).

[Thinlómien]

Wow, mister Nogrodman actually makes a lot of sense. :D

But I think this talk about the numbers is not completely pointless, as it can help us stop and think for ourselves and giving us one more thing to consider when voting: "Okay, I want to vote either X or Y for a Rep, but I see we have already six Representatives who have two votes, and one of them is X. And by voting Y, I am about to bring another Rep there with my vote, but I don't want such a high number of Reps, so I will vote rather for X than for Y." Something like that, I hope you get the point (of course in the example I am leaving out the things about X possibly getting four votes etc, but the example was aimed just on the number of representatives).Yes, things like that did cross my mind but that really hasn't got that much to do with talking about the number of representatives... Because what you talk about is something that depends on every single player's common sense.

Speaking of these issues, I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.

And lastly, since no one has brought it up yet, it's perfectly possible that innocent people will elect one or more wolves as their representatives and thereby wolves could be trying to seem reasonable and trustworthy just to gather innocent rep votes. Which means I'm not going to vote anyone who seems too sane to be my representative. ;)


edit: xed with Nog, Nog, Kath, Boro, Nog

[Aganzir]

Hello I'm here. Sorry to come so late but a friend of mine begged she coud cook for me and I just didn't have the heart to say no. However, I should write a paper for tomorrow and I am tired and in a rather bad mood so I don't know how much I'm going to post.

I don't care how many representatives we have. I'm going to vote for the one I think will see to my interests the best. Besides the less reps there are, the greater their power, which I don't find a good thing. Also, I don't care if my rep can be around at deadline or not. As for deadline, it is 6am my time and I'm not going to be around that late (nor wake up that early, for that matter). And should anybody vote me for a rep, they would also have to bear in mind that my votes will be cast early.

*sigh* Aganzir, it looks like we're in a dead heat in the: "Sneaky Scary Idol: Scar or Kaa?" Contest again... Don't worry, I'll vote for you of course.
Haha, yes. :D So, do we have any chance but to trust in you, just in you? ;) By the way, I bet I would be elected as a rep if I sang Be Prepared.

And one thing to make it clear. Mr. P. is not getting my vote as a Representative, no way.
Yeah - after all, this is supposed to be a democracy, not theocracy.

I don't care if there are filibusters or not, at least for now.

Okay I really don't have anything to say. I'll try to get my paper at least half done and then concentrate on coming up with opinions on people.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'd say we should not shy away from actually trying to suspect people on this first Day as well even if there are a host of interesting new things to speculate upon. We should use the extra time we have to discuss things and to call for all the people to participate. You all know what democracy with 60% partake-rate (too many submarines) and not discussing the actual topics that influence our welfare (the identity of the werewolves) is. Just the "politics as usual" which will get us nowhere.
Yes, although at least for myself, I have decided to use this "two-day" (in fact) system and try to keep my opinons on people for myself for a bit longer than usual, i.e. voicing them only very late in the Day, because I want to make a clearer picture on everybody, not given just by first impressions (and as soon as I say "X looks suspicious" or simply evaluate somebody, it will create a reaction, which I don't want yet. I want to see everybody for a while in their "natural environment" as a mere observer. Call it an experiment for toDay).

I disagree. I will pick someone who will represent my voice. Period. That doesn't mean we still can't hold people accountable for their own decisions, whether they said they were only going with their constituents or not. "Popular support" is a lame cop out, the person who best expresses their intentions, and his/her intentions fit best with mine, will be my representative. That's a heck of a lot different than me saying I'm going to pick the first person who will suck up to me, by agreeing with me, because you can't throw bull crap past this pig pen raker.
That is one way of looking at things, but this, in my opinion, is not as easy as you paint it. Because, I don't believe it will be like: X says "I will lynch Y" and I say "good, I want to lynch Y too, let's make X a Representative!" If I take it just from the minimalistic point of view, there will be the whole next Day between my nomination and X's actual vote, and during that time, X may re-evaluate his opinions etc., whatever. Or, X may have on his suspect list as well Y and Z, while I think Z is innocent and wouldn't like to see him lynched. No: okay, I know we don't know yet how things are going to work in real, but for now, my opinion is, the vote for my representative will be a vote for somebody I know I can trust to make a honest judgement under any circumstances. Imagine I vote for a player, and the only reason for me voting him would be because he supports lynching the people I want to. But suddenly, one of those people reveals as Seer. Or, worse, somebody reveals as Seer and somebody else as a Seer too, and now the Reps have to choose. It doesn't matter who they suspected before, now it's either Seer A or Seer B - one is a liar. And in this situation, I wish my representative to be able to judge for himself. So, I am not nominating anybody just because he by chance happened to suspect the same person as me (although of course I am not saying this can't be a criterion in the choice).

What do you mean by "the intentions of this village?" Do you mean if the the phantom proves he means well in the sense that he can lead the village to lynching wolves? Or do you mean he will prove to serve your own sinister intentions?
That's actually what I have to see yet. Simply put, I need him to convince me that he a) seems un-sinister enough for me to put my trust in him (which is a thing that concerns everybody in the village), b) I get certain that he does not vote wilfully to whomever his momentary whim points, but behave responsibly according to the position of the Rep that is given to him (and not end up just joking around and behaving, as my RPG players would put it, "like a terrible Chaotic").

EDIT: X-ed since the Boro I am quoting

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea, just a general question. Can the filibuster only take place at the end of the lynch-vote by the representatives (as I've thought it is) or is it possible to filibuster even when choosing the representatives?

A filibuster may occur at any time during the entire Day period of 48 hours. More than one may occur in any one day, however each player has only one filibuster at their disposal.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Fea, just a general question. Can the filibuster only take place at the end of the lynch-vote by the representatives (as I've thought it is) or is it possible to filibuster even when choosing the representatives?

From what I see on the Admin thread it looks like one can filibuster on both parts of the Day.

Yes, things like that did cross my mind but that really hasn't got that much to do with talking about the number of representatives... Because what you talk about is something that depends on every single player's common sense.

Speaking of these issues, I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.
Why not vote just one person and give it many votes? "...into the first Gallactic Empaijaa!!!"

(Wow. I never thought before how much, when written, this seems like Finnish... ;) )

Though not, of course, that's why I spoke about some 5 or 6 or so representatives looking as an optimal number from my part. Hauevaa, while you are right that it depends on every player's common sense, it is always worth pointing that out to give others food for thought - and then apply their common sense enrichened by the conscious reflection of what has been said on the topic. Isn't that what we do with all things in WW?

EDIT: x-ed with Fea. Okay, so I was right :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro and Phantom seem to be nicely buddy-buddy today, don't they? :p

[Boromir88]

Imagine I vote for a player, and the only reason for me voting him would be because he supports lynching the people I want to.~Legate
I never knew I'd have to spell it out all here...I mean I thought it was kind of already assumed that you choose a representative who you trust. :rolleyes:

I doubt anyone is going to be choosing their reps on a whim, or based solely on the fact that their rep wants to lynch the same person. I have high expectations. Someone I trust is innocent, and someone who will repesent me, I expect both. End of story. If you can't live up to that, tough luck.

Which is why I'm confused to why exactly you ruled out the phantom so soon? Explain it to me, was it a joke for some laughs, and a little fun at what you promised earlier? I mean really if we follow your logic for not wanting to choose the phantom right now, you can say that about anyone in this village. I see no reason you should trust anyone right now, but right off the bat you said it aint gonna be the phantom. You didn't exclude anyone else, just the phantom.

By no means am I saying the phantom should be a representative, but the question is why should we immediately exclude anyone? Because of the history? Are you afraid history will repeat itself if you make the same mistakes? Why does what Day we're on make any difference?

This is a clean slate, a brand new ball game. If I was to use such a weak excuse as "history" for not choosing a rep, I could come up with some cockamamy reason for anyone in this village except Ilya.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro, you could say history doesn't matter, but look at how much Phantom has already said! History tends to repeat itself, after all. :p

[the phantom]

I'm slowly catching up on everyone's posts. I'll respond to them a few at a time.

[Boromir88]

Boro, you could say history doesn't matter, but look at how much Phantom has already said! History tends to repeat itself, after all. :p~Shasta
History is an excuse for the faint of heart. I'm not afraid to say Mac totally played me for a fool last time, but if he were in this village now, I would not use that a reason for not wanting him as a rep.

Or look at it this way...if history has any bearing on what will happen now, and if the phantom's a wolf, well we're all screwed now anyway. All we can do now is fight against the inevitable defeat.

[the phantom]

But sorry in a representative I don't want someone with their own mind, I want someone with my mind.
That is contrary to the entire point of having representatives. If we just vote for people who would vote the same way as us anyway, then all we're doing is having a mass vote, just like always.

And this goes for the next comment as well-
I am also unwilling to give votes to certain people as Reps, for now, and among them is Mr. P. for the simple reason that he's too wilful.... We need strong Representatives, who have the intentions of the people in mind, and not just their own.
You say we need a "strong" rep, and yet you don't think that reps who will vote independently and with conviction are a good choice?

That is massive contradiction.

A strong rep will vote the way he feels. A weak rep will hide behind those that elected him.

Nogrod made an excellent point on this matter already-
The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!
That is lovely reasoning Nogrod. A Werewolf could simply change his vote and not appear suspicious for it via following the whims of one of his constituents. "Well, you know, I was gonna vote for so-and-so, but since you did elect me and you're leaning this way I'll go ahead and vote that way."

Of course it would be done less obviously than that, but you get the point surely.

[the phantom]

I still don't understand the anti-filibuster votes. What's the point? We've been given a unique set up and we're basically voting to normalize it. Where's your spirit of adventure?

Do you actually fear it will be put to use with negative consequences here on Day 1?

Oh well.
I think they might just lay low and vote innocents as representatives because it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway.
On Day 1 it is indeed likely that we will need no assitance in lynching an innocent, but surely the Werewolves must consider their positioning the rest of the game.

If people sit around and then suddenly try to turn themselves into reps after the first couple days then suspicion will go up. I would think it would be best to become a trusted rep as soon as possible. For at least a couple of the Wolves anyway. I'd think you would always want a bit of voting power, just in case.
But I don't like you bringing up this point at all. If you really did request so, it's rather unsporty of you to say it aloud. And if you didn't, that's a rather stupid trick. And at any rate, who says Fea would have fulfilled your request?
I agree that it would be unsporty to claim it. But notice that I merely floated it as a possibility.

Di had floated the idea that Fea would show favoritism (make me a Wolf) based on our relationship, and I think I was within bounds to respond and display that the favoritism could also work in the other direction.
He's too all over the place, he says some silly things and posts sometimes plain nonsense. Why?
It's called fun. You remember fun, don't you? ;)

[the phantom]

So, phooey on the actual vote, they're overrated.
Perhaps, but not useless. Not to me, anyhow.
Yes, especially the second paragraph boldened and twice underlined!! Because, among other things, otherwise, all this complicated Rep-system would be worth nothing. End to demagogues and hypocritical "Men of the People"! When you are voted for a Representative, show your worth! When we already have this Republic here, so let it be worth it! And those who fail your trust, into the waste with them - you can vote somebody else! This is the point of this whole system, or so I gathered - so let it be used to its fullest, so that we have something from it!
*chuckles*

Wait just a minute here. First you are on about how reps should consider everyone else's wishes and not be to self-willed, and then you go and agree with Nogrod about how Reps should stand up and not be wishy-washy?

Just what are you up to, Legate?

(still reading.... on to page 3...)

[Eönwë]

Good evening, peoples of the world.

Glad I got that out of the way.

++Phantom

*laughs*
++Shasta

see, nothing happened!

Anyway, I can see that Shasta is probably going to be voted as a rep, maybe based on previous game experiences.

Hmmm... Interesting game so far- And its only Day 1!

[Eönwë]

If anyone ever dares to attempt a post-by-post analysis of tp, my hat's off to you. :rolleyes:

That's just his plan- no-one can ever analyse all his posts so they can't get a good reading on him. ;)

[THE Ka]

History is an excuse for the faint of heart.

I'd have to agree in some extent to that. Change is inevitable, but some folks and truths are not. I guess after toDay we'll see how much change can happen, hopefully for the better.


You say we need a "strong" rep, and yet you don't think that reps who will vote independently and with conviction are a good choice?

That is massive contradiction.



I'm going to have to agree with tp on this one. It is definately comforting if someone is always voting for what their base wants, but I don't think we can put our feet up next to the fire entirely when a representative can have as many innocents as wolves in their ranks. The concerning thing is, they don't even have to know it.
I think we're forgetting that a leader is not their own island, and that the 'power supreme' is as much in their lobbyist as is themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one representative had a few puppeteers to act for, and think they we're being free as a bird.

As my dad would say, It's not always the top of the totem pole that is the strongest.

On that note, I have to leave for awhile to take my feline child to the vet for a check up on her stitches. Should be back before any deadlines.

~ Ka

[McCaber]

Now I'm picturing a filibuster where all I do is talk about the phantom's posts.

I can taste the possibilities from here.

[the phantom]

I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.
Giving power to the few is only dangerous if they are on the wrong side. :)
Yeah - after all, this is supposed to be a democracy, not theocracy.
:D
Boro, you could say history doesn't matter, but look at how much Phantom has already said! History tends to repeat itself, after all.
In that case, I must be the Good Wizard, as that was my highest posting game.

Sweet. I can make a new Ranger tonight!
and if the phantom's a wolf, well we're all screwed now anyway.
Precisely! It doesn't do any good to suspect me. You can know from reading your Werewolf history that whatever side I'm on benefits greatly from my help. And the vast majority of the time I am good, and thus the odds say that you should keep me around. Simple as that, really. :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Which is why I'm confused to why exactly you ruled out the phantom so soon? Explain it to me, was it a joke for some laughs, and a little fun at what you promised earlier? I mean really if we follow your logic for not wanting to choose the phantom right now, you can say that about anyone in this village. I see no reason you should trust anyone right now, but right off the bat you said it aint gonna be the phantom. You didn't exclude anyone else, just the phantom.

By no means am I saying the phantom should be a representative, but the question is why should we immediately exclude anyone? Because of the history? Are you afraid history will repeat itself if you make the same mistakes? Why does what Day we're on make any difference?

This is a clean slate, a brand new ball game. If I was to use such a weak excuse as "history" for not choosing a rep, I could come up with some cockamamy reason for anyone in this village except Ilya.

Okay, well, see, it's not like it will be only the phantom - I have more or less some list of players whom I would like to see as Reps and whom I would not, basically given on my experience with how they act in certain situations. That is no outdated history stuff, I believe you are not saying that I'd think something like "X was a Wolf last time, I am not going to vote him". But still, there are basically people I would dare to nominate and those I am - on first thought - reluctant to nominate, at least. Some I won't nominate - for the first Day at least - simply because I don't know them well enough (like Ilya whom I meet for the first time here). With some, I am reluctant, because I simply won't wish to rely on their judgement in hard situation. I named tp in particular because he's a classic character (and no hard feelings, hope, Mr. P. ;) ) and because I told that before-game, right, but that did not serve as basis for my current stance towards him, but merely for a reason to name him in particular in my post. There are others, more, whom I would not vote right now, but I simply did not name them all. I would not have named any, most probably, had I not made that remark about tp before the game. Is that clear, I hope?

May I have a counter-question, Boro, though (if it is clear, if not, ask more) - what was your reason to ask me this? If you only could formulate why are you asking me about that, "why did I name tp in particular". Thank ye.

You say we need a "strong" rep, and yet you don't think that reps who will vote independently and with conviction are a good choice?

That is massive contradiction.

A strong rep will vote the way he feels. A weak rep will hide behind those that elected him.

Yes, that's what I said (several times) - and I would sign the thing you quoted from Nog, too. Maybe I just did not make myself clear. I said here several times, that I believe that Reps who are needed are strong, indeed, reliable people, about whom I am certain that they can make judgements in hard situations, for the good of the village. Not just for their own. That is simply, that I won't vote somebody whom I don't trust in the sense that he could vote just based on a whim or something. That was my point - the slight difference between "strong and independant" and "wilful". I can't think now how to phrase it better than that.

EDIT: x-ed since Phantom I quoted (i.e. with posts after #99)

[Eönwë]

Heh heh... That's why I talk so much, naturally. To discourage people from going back and researching me. :p

[^see last post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=572855&postcount=103)]

[Eönwë]

Also, tp is a werewolf because it would amuse Fea to make him one. I'm sure of this.
I really wanted to say that in my first post but was afraid Fea would yell at me. :(

I think it would also amuse Fea to make you a WW, so that everyone will vote you as a rep and then you will vote badly (purposefully).

[the phantom]

Just to be clear...
I said here several times, that I believe that Reps who are needed are strong, indeed, reliable people, about whom I am certain that they can make judgements in hard situations, for the good of the village.
My point was that earlier your precise reasoning for not wanting to pick me seemed to be that I fit this exact statement.

At the time you seemed to strongly favor a "weak" rep, who would do the will of the people. But then a couple other people made some points, and you appeared to flip-flop violently.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I think it would also amuse Fea to make you a WW

It would amuse me to do a great deal of things. But I wouldn't rely too much on suspicions in that vein: assuming I did handpick roles (and one should never assume), I highly doubt people (even you, phantom) would be able to trace my motives down to an accurate shortlist, since my motives are rarely traceable.

However I certainly invite you all to try to figure out who I would have picked, had I picked. I like being the center of attention, and it's as good a way to spend Day One as any. :cool:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I think it would also amuse Fea to make you a WW, so that everyone will vote you as a rep and then you will vote badly (purposefully).

Why would you say that? I'm "doomed to be forever right, but forever not listened to", according to Wikipedia. :smokin:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wait just a minute here. First you are on about how reps should consider everyone else's wishes and not be to self-willed, and then you go and agree with Nogrod about how Reps should stand up and not be wishy-washy?

Well, I hope you gathered from what I have replied now in the post right above, that I never was for this populism. I never said anything about considering others' wishes! I spoke about the best intentions of the village - but that does not mean listening to a few villagers who whine "uncle Rep, vote that awful guy with the pink hair"! The Rep, once elected, should vote with the best intentions for the village in mind! Once again - and if you read all my posts, you will find it there from the beginning to the end - I say: I believe in reasonable players, who will do what is best, who know what is best, which is the point of this very game - and I am also doing that to see how different outcome such a voting (meaning now the lynch-voting later, which those Reps will make) will be from the usual WW-y voting of the "mindless masses". ;) Clear?

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[A Little Green]

Here at last. Hello. Sorry for taking so long, it's been a busy day. (And seemingly a busy Day as well.) So, first off, some thoughts on toDay's posts.

Must you use that word? I recall the words of a famous politician-

"Consensus is the absence of leadership".Might be - but do we want leadership? I would much prefer consensus to leadership, not only because leadership can be so easily misused, but also because leadership makes a WW game really boring. After all, what's the fun in a game where you have a leader who does all the thinking for you? ;)
I'd say we should not shy away from actually trying to suspect people on this first Day as well even if there are a host of interesting new things to speculate upon.My thoughts exactly - I was going to mention this thing in this post but seemingly Mr. Nog did it before me. Though speculating about reps and filibusters is important and all, I'm a bit worried about how little people talk about each other. For myself, I'm going to sleep in a few hours, probably, and would really much like to see something else than rules discussion before I vote for a rep. I'll show example and talk about people after this post.
Yes, although at least for myself, I have decided to use this "two-day" (in fact) system and try to keep my opinons on people for myself for a bit longer than usual, i.e. voicing them only very late in the Day, because I want to make a clearer picture on everybody, not given just by first impressions (and as soon as I say "X looks suspicious" or simply evaluate somebody, it will create a reaction, which I don't want yet. I want to see everybody for a while in their "natural environment" as a mere observer. Call it an experiment for toDay).That's all very well - except that if we all hold back our suspicions all Day and only voice them a bit before deadline, that will not only make it really difficult to choose a representative for the people around at deadline, forcing them to hasty decisions since they get all the information only just before they have to decide, but also makes deciding close to impossible for those who are not able to be around late in the Day. Of course it's not that bad if only one Leggie does that, but if we all operated that way, it would end up quite nasty. Immanuel Kant said: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." That obviously makes you a sinner, which means you are a wolf. Easy, eh? :Merisu: (How come I have become so good at spotting wolves?)

I'll be back with more stuff. Beware.


EDIT: x-ed since, gasp, phantom's #101 - 13 posts before mine! Slow down, people. Really. :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just to be clear...

My point was that earlier your precise reasoning for not wanting to pick me seemed to be that I fit this exact statement.

At the time you seemed to strongly favor a "weak" rep, who would do the will of the people. But then a couple other people made some points, and you appeared to flip-flop violently.

Well, I hope you understood now from the post above (and hope there'll be no more x-posting anymore), that I have never said anything like you say, and never favoured, as you say, a "weak" rep. Just look at my first post.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Any future direct quotation of Immanuel Kant shall result in modfire. *shudders*

[the phantom]

Well, I hope you gathered from what I have replied now in the post right above, that I never was for this populism. I never said anything about considering others' wishes! I spoke about the best intentions of the village
Well, if that is your justification, then I can only say that I am insulted that you would think that an innocent phantom would not have the best intentions of the village in mind. I have done some crazy things as an Ordo (suggested volunteers for lynching, lying about my role, etc) but these things were always done to help the village, even if they couldn't see what I was trying to do until after the fact. And usually I produced very favorable results for the village, which I think speaks for my intentions quite well.

[the phantom]

Wish Lalaith was here. She'd be able to testify to the fact that a manipulative-lying-through-his-teeth Phantom can be quite deadly to opposing Werewolves.

Question my means if you'd like, Legate, but never my intentions or motives.

[the phantom]

assuming I did handpick roles (and one should never assume), I highly doubt people (even you, phantom) would be able to trace my motives down to an accurate shortlist, since my motives are rarely traceable.
Oh whatever. Your motives are quite clear. You picked four WWs who hate me, didn't you?

This whole village is a set up! Gah! What did I do to you to deserve this, Fea?

But no, there actually aren't any Werewolves, are there? We'll discover at the end that the moral was that the government causes rifts and starts fights, and that the people should rise up above it and excercise their power to stop the madness.

Actually, that's quite an idea.

Werewolves, I have an idea! We can make peace! If you will agree not to kill us during the night, we will agree not to try and lynch you during the day. Why continue this conflict? Let us strike a truce!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's all very well - except that if we all hold back our suspicions all Day and only voice them a bit before deadline, that will not only make it really difficult to choose a representative for the people around at deadline, forcing them to hasty decisions since they get all the information only just before they have to decide, but also makes deciding close to impossible for those who are not able to be around late in the Day. Of course it's not that bad if only one Leggie does that, but if we all operated that way, it would end up quite nasty. [NAME EDITED AWAY ON BEHALF OF THE MOD'S WELL-BEING] said: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." That obviously makes you a sinner, which means you are a wolf. Easy, eh? :Merisu: (How come I have become so good at spotting wolves?)

I am aware of your point, but a) I know that not everybody will do that, and b) as I said it is an experiment I want to try when there is the chance, but mainly, and most of all, c) if you followed my thoughts, the reason for doing the experiment relies on the fact that I am NOT going to vote my representative, for most part, on who is he going to vote for. I am well aware of the riskiness, but heck, for me it's still worth it. I will vote a representative whom I believe as being capable of making a good decision on behalf of the village, that's the prime qualificiation.

Though point well taken. If we don't post any suspicions or such, we may not judge whether the Rep, who is otherwise a reliable person and whom we'd like to see as a leader, is not actually showing signs of Wolfishness. I am going to post some list on what I think about people, then, soon.

Well, if that is your justification, then I can only say that I am insulted that you would think that an innocent phantom would not have the best intentions of the village in mind. I have done some crazy things as an Ordo (suggested volunteers for lynching, lying about my role, etc) but these things were always done to help the village, even if they couldn't see what I was trying to do until after the fact. And usually I produced very favorable results for the village, which I think speaks for my intentions quite well.

Well, yes, sorry then for insulting you poor innocent phantom :) And apologies in forward to others about whom I am perhaps going to speak in similar terms in future. But you know, this is all just these high politics - one does not avoid saying things which may sound too gruff at times :)

[the phantom]

All right, I'm going to go get lunch, but I'll be around for all the time after that. I'll make an updated list of villagers when I return.

[Aganzir]

I'm planning to go to sleep.

I still have no idea about anyone and not enough energy to spend on trying to figure out the roles.

I'm inclined to vote someone who is not likely to receive tons of other votes today because I don't like the idea of concentrating the executive power on a couple of individuals. My thoughts on who might be unlikely to receive much votes are of course biased because there's so long of the day still left, but there's nothing I can do about it.

++Brinniel for rep

Because I agree with her that the less reps there are, the more room for errors, and because she's a player who is generally trustworthy although I always find her so suspicious, and because she probably won't be the centre of attention.

[Boromir88]

May I have a counter-question, Boro, though (if it is clear, if not, ask more) - what was your reason to ask me this? If you only could formulate why are you asking me about that, "why did I name tp in particular". Thank ye.~Legate
Certainly Senator who hails from a place called Amon Lanc, an no need to rephrase.

It was by no means for the phantom's sake. The phantom is a big boy, he can look after himself. Call it a couple curious queries that sprang to mind, call it a test, call it whatever you want. You said earlier you were going to hold off on your suspects until later, you want to take this extra time for observation, that may be well and good for you, each to his own. For me, I want to send a clear message that I stand for efficiency, and that means I'm raring for the fight. The moment I step into those chambers, I mean business.

It was a little test, I thought some of the things you stated earlier were a bit suspect, and decided to investigate further. For example, I found it curious to why you pinpointed the phantom. I mean logically it makes sense, and also I know how hard it is to go one paragraph, let alone one post, without mentioning him in some way. But people gripe about how he has to have all the attention, yet you (and others) continually, and specifically, pinpoint him out. I of course hope you have been honest, or as honest as a politician can possibly be.

I am fully aware of the flaws of first impressions, if applied randomly and based solely on stereotypes, first impressions can be horribly wrong. But it is proven that first impressions with sound, solid, logical reasoning backing them, can be frighteningly accurate. Let me say I've realized my primary flaw in being stubborn and pig-headed. But, with twice as much time now, there is more time for me to slow down, reflect, and process. Rest assured Legate, you will not be the only one I will pick on, you just happened to be the first. Let me repeat that...first.

Edit: Crossed with Agan and the phantom (as far as the 4th page goes)

[A Little Green]

Any future direct quotation of Immanuel Kant shall result in modfire. *shudders*I love you. :) (Just couldn't resist, you know, when given such a perfect occasion...)

Then, to the list I promised. Here it comes.
Aganzir - No idea.
Boromir88 - Don't know. He seems calm and reasonable and wise without actually revealing next to anything about himself. A sneaky man, obviously. Could be anything.
Brinniel - Cute and cuddly and sensible, as always.
Diamond18 - I'm slightly worried about the over-confident tone of her post, mainly because I'm not sure what it indicates to. I'm interested to see more of her posting.
Eönwë - Under my reindeer already, and fast asleep, too. Not good.
Gil-Galad - Haven't seen him.
Gwathagor - Securely under the reindeer as well.
Ilya - Seems sensible and gives innocentish vibes this far.
Legate - He puzzles me a bit with those political speeches and such, but doesn't ring-a-ling any alarm bells as yet.
Lommy - No idea. Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
Kath - Under the reindeer with the two charming guys...
McCaber - ...sorry, three.
mormegil - Seems reasonable enough.
Nerwen - From the little I saw of her, she seems quite innocentish.
Nogrod - Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
Rune - Haven't seen him.
Sally - Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
Shasta - Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent.
The Ka - Leaning innocent this far.
the phantom - As before when I've played with him, I'm irritated by the way the discussion seems to revolve around him. I have a bad feeling about him (and no, not because he is the centre of attention).

(Hey, I just realised that the names are in alphabetical order! Yay! :rolleyes:)

I'll vote for a rep soon, and have no idea as yet. Also, I don't like how "Not actively suspicious nor actively innocent" became my favourite phrase in the list... I suppose I'm just a hopeless case.


EDIT: x-ed since phantom's post where he regrets Lalaith isn't here.

[Boromir88]

Rune - Haven't seen him.~Greenie

I feel bad for him, if and when he arrives.

[A Little Green]

c) if you followed my thoughts, the reason for doing the experiment relies on the fact that I am NOT going to vote my representative, for most part, on who is he going to vote for. I am well aware of the riskiness, but heck, for me it's still worth it. I will vote a representative whom I believe as being capable of making a good decision on behalf of the village, that's the prime qualificiation.Yes, I agree to some point - but it's easier to judge people's roles and alignments if they talk also about other things than game dynamics. It's not that I choose a rep solely because of who s/he suspects; it's more about the fact that people who voice their suspicions are easier to form an opinion on, or rather, people who discuss nothing but filibusters are pretty hard to read. I don't know how to better explain it, but I hope you got my point.

I like Agan's idea of voting Brinn for rep. She seems a sensible choice. Other possibilities for me might be Lommy or THE Ka. Argh. I don't know.

[Nogrod]

Question my means if you'd like, Legate, but never my intentions or motives.HaHa! :D


Just a quick one to begin with... I think we have some conceptual problems involved. At least we had and should do well not to fall on them yet again.

Lommy I think first used the expression "weak reps" and "strong reps" and it looks like she meant ones with only little voting power or with a huge mandate (eg. the question on how many votes any certain rep has over the lynching) and then someone else (Legate, tp, boro...?) started to talk about the "strong reps" as someone who is trusted or influential or keeps her/his own mind or makes independent decisions etc. Or at least to me it looked like that.

These two things should be kept apart. The number of votes a rep has in the lynch-vote is a different thing from the different evaluations concerning the independent-mindedness or "rationality" or "having the good of the village in mind" -speculations of each and every one of us. The first is factual reality while the latter is feelings on everyone's minds and could be different with every single player around.


On a second note... I would be honoured to be a representative but I have to inform you that tomorrow (RL) I go to work early and come back home pretty late in the evening (and I have an early morning call the next day as well). So I may not have too many hours to play in my hands tomorrow).

On a third thought: that kind of information might be useful in general. Sure if I wawered between voting for X or Y as my representative the knowledge that X could be online a lot and Y would have to skip the Day would influence my decision between more or less even candidates...

[A Little Green]

Lommie wants the computer (which is fair enough), so I have to go. I'll vote

++Brinn for rep

because she is a good sensible player, seems innocent, and has already received one vote so is certainly through. Good night, sweethearts.


EDIT: x-ed with Noggins-Woggins

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, first, a list of people for some orientation.

Aganzir - Well. She appeared only for a while, so there's little to say. If I were to speak about gut feeling, I would say okay. But in general, too little to go with.
Boromir88 - The fact that he questioned my phantom comment very short after I posted it could speak for it being a genuine, and therefore innocentish intention. - And, now as I see his reply to me, I am... well. I am considering him... speaking sense, at least, and seeming honest, that's the word. Whether there is something behind this "mask of fairness", or how to call it, is another thing. But this far - no special feelings.
Brinniel - hmm, appears around, but I cannot seem to be able to make a constant picture of her. Perhaps later.
Diamond18 - except for her non-filibustier vote and some messing around, not really much to go with; no reasons to suspect her, though
Eönwë - too little to go with
Gil-Galad - the same (with substituing "too little" for "nothing")
Greenie - I actually think she seems genuine, if not outright innocent. More innocent-ish than not, at least - genuine-seeming questions or points and Ordo could raise, I'd say. So, rather good profile for me this far.
Gwathagor - the same as those two above Greenie
Ilya - the same as many above
Legate - that's me
Lommy - that's her
No, wait a moment. Yes, Lommy... after reading her posts, she actually seems genuine. Thus, innocentish-like.
Kath - probably the same as many above.
McCaber - from what he posted, for now, he makes a rather innocent-y impression on me
mormegil - I feel a bit unnerved, but that's his behavior which I am not used to (I mean in general), and in fact, there's nothing in particular that I would find awkward about him: he seems to follow some normal reasoning.
Nerwen - one post this far, if I am correct? And no substance at all. So, what to say. Nothing. (Though I would have expected her to say at least something.)
Nogrod - reasonable, actually very reasonable, reasonable to the point that it's almost unsettling, but, well, he simply seems reasonable, what to say more.
Rune - is he?
Sally - she's not been posting much, which surprises me a bit, but maybe that's the timezone
Shasta - he is actually quite posting around, which surprises me a bit. I am looking at him, but rather with some sort of expectation and wonder what is going to come out of it, rather than that I'd be outright suspecting him. I have missed many games with him lately, so maybe his style got changed a bit.
The Ka - Her only few posts actually leave me more, like, confused, or, simply hard to analyze anything out of them. I really need (and this case I really mean need) to see more from her to be actually able to even think about her.
the phantom - well, what to say: he is the phantom, but actually, I had the feeling that he does not seem like a Wolf (this has nothing to do though with my ideas about voting him as Rep, to be clear).

Well. I see I'm certainly x-ing with some people, so some comments on that coming rightaway, too...

[Nogrod]

Good night, sweethearts.I know it's something she does in every game and means nothing looking at her possible role but it always gives me the creeps... :eek: :rolleyes:


I don't have too many hours either to go and I should need to go for some actual thoughts on people around...

Clearly tp, Boro and Legate have stood up from the village with their debate.

I like to see the "cut the crap"-Boro being back once again. Also tp looks like... well, like tp. As a suggestion to my representative - whoever it will be - I would hate to see either of them go toDay. That would be a loss indeed. And quite many of you will probably quess it right if you think I support getting rid of the possibly existing submarines in the early Days if there are no clear and believable suspicions on others more vocal players.

In this game the situation is a bit different in the way that we have 48 hours to post on any given Day. But if someone is not able to actually post anything "substantive" in 48 hours (or like within 10 pages of posting) I'd be even more inclined to vote those people out on the first Days. Unless that is if there are no better... (I just don't want to hear those certain arguments again for the hundreth time)

But of the three I actually find Legate the most innocent-looking by now as he has actually been forced to defend himself and what he said in couple of his posts defending his position looked innocentish to me - even if I disagree with him on certain points, like whether we should show forwards suspicion or trust over people already on this first part of Day1 or whether to just hang around letting the others do the ugly business that needs to be done anyway if we wish to make things happen...


EDIT: Haha - X'd with Legate doing actually a list of suspicions (was there any after all?) and trusting... :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, I agree to some point - but it's easier to judge people's roles and alignments if they talk also about other things than game dynamics. It's not that I choose a rep solely because of who s/he suspects; it's more about the fact that people who voice their suspicions are easier to form an opinion on, or rather, people who discuss nothing but filibusters are pretty hard to read. I don't know how to better explain it, but I hope you got my point.
Yes, I hope I got it too :D But I think I did, of course.

Lommy I think first used the expression "weak reps" and "strong reps" and it looks like she meant ones with only little voting power or with a huge mandate (eg. the question on how many votes any certain rep has over the lynching) and then someone else (Legate, tp, boro...?) started to talk about the "strong reps" as someone who is trusted or influential or keeps her/his own mind or makes independent decisions etc. Or at least to me it looked like that.

These two things should be kept apart. The number of votes a rep has in the lynch-vote is a different thing from the different evaluations concerning the independent-mindedness or "rationality" or "having the good of the village in mind" -speculations of each and every one of us. The first is factual reality while the latter is feelings on everyone's minds and could be different with every single player around.

One note, I believe if I used it in my first post, then it was me who used it first (that just to make things clear ;) ). But I used the term in the general sense. And tp, at least what I recall, used the term "weak" as the opposite for it, for these Reps uncapable of judgement.
But, really, good sir, are you not overdoing it a bit, we are not little children. Had you not mentioned it, it would have never occured to me these two terms can be mixed ;)

On a third thought: that kind of information might be useful in general. Sure if I wawered between voting for X or Y as my representative the knowledge that X could be online a lot and Y would have to skip the Day would influence my decision between more or less even candidates...
That's a good point. As far as that goes, I should be around in a reasonable measure toMorrow - in the "Morning" (game-wise, but also European time-wise) and then again only in the "Evening" (like for some time from about one hour later than now), though not for the DL itself, of course! What am I, a person with dyssomnia?

EDIT: x-ed with sir Nogrod

[Thinlómien]

Boro and Phantom seem to be nicely buddy-buddy today, don't they?Quite rightly so. To be honest, this whole Boro-phantom-Legate triangle baffles me. What are these guys up to? I don't mean to say that they're evil, nor that even one of them is evil, but such behaviour does make me a little cautious. I would say I'm keeping an eye on them, but in this village, one can hardly avoid paying attention to those three. :rolleyes:

I agree with Nogrod about confusing the words. Okay... if reps who have their own will are strong and those who don't are weak, can we then call those who have less votes at their disposal light reps and those who have many heavy reps? I would find that amusing...

I should soon know who I'm going to vote as a rep. Right now, I'm most inclined to vote Shasta (he seems innocent and rather sharp-witted, and well, you know, he's a known psychic ;)) or possibly Nogrod (since I think he has a rather good track-record in Day1 votes and seems innocent too). My vote may very well go to someone else too. I haven't had much time to think about it yet.

I'm also toying with the idea of voting someone rather quiet just to force them to think and post. ;)


edit: xed with Nog and two Legs - feeble joke, I know

[Nogrod]

I'm also toying with the idea of voting someone rather quiet just to force them to think and post. ;)Why to use a smilie when discussing an important point Lommy! :D

I mean that is exactly what I have been thinking... for this Day or maybe the next as well, depending on the overall situation.

Or maybe quietness is not the right factor but the kind of carefulness of some of us around. If we pick them as representatives they will have to take a stand.

I just realised this... Kath, would you like to be a representative?

[Thinlómien]

Why to use a smilie when discussing an important point Lommy!

I mean that is exactly what I have been thinking... for this Day or maybe the next as well, depending on the overall situation.

Or maybe quietness is not the right factor but the kind of carefulness of some of us around. If we pick them as representatives they will have to take a stand.

I just realised this... Kath, would you like to be a representative?I used the smilie just because the idea occured to me right then and I was not sure if it was worth taking entirely seriously... :D But yes, like you say, why not? Just as long as it's someone we can trust will use his/her judgement and not just vote randomly... And in that case Kath is a good choice - smart but rather quiet. And besides, I love piling important decisions on her... :p

I'll have to think about this.

(And like you kind of said, I doubt this is a good arrangem,ent for days other than toDay or maybe toMorrow at most. Then the game will be getting a bit too serious for experiments like this...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

EDIT: Haha - X'd with Legate doing actually a list of suspicions (was there any after all?) and trusting...

Ah, good point, I had not even realised it :D I thought it's going to end up kind-of not that productive... although... well, you see. In either case, my opinions are going to change, most likely. And then also, my view is actually the worst on those who are around, but too quiet. Let's say, Kath, just by random. Or Nerwen, possibly (I think I even said that it's a bit awkward). But, well, the main point is that the Americans have not yet posted in their last hours, so...

One thing which became clear to me now too - Brinn is not getting a Rep vote from me, because she already has two, and I have no reason to give her more. Nog would be fine, but if he's not going to be around much... Have to see.

EDIT: x-ed with these Noggies and Lommies. Gaah, what I just said about Kath. I never can't seem to get a reading about her. :D I don't like her because I don't understand her :D Too shadowy for me.

[Thinlómien]

I was just thinking... I could vote Ilya too for a rep, just to find out more who she is and how she plays this game. I think I know everybody else's playing styles well enough...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was just thinking... I could vote Ilya too for a rep, just to find out more who she is and how she plays this game. I think I know everybody else's playing styles well enough...

What? He's a she? :D

I wondered about Shasta, too, though, when you mentioned it... hmm...

[THE Ka]

Any future direct quotation of Immanuel Kant shall result in modfire. *shudders*

:D
Fea, amazing.



Werewolves, I have an idea! We can make peace! If you will agree not to kill us during the night, we will agree not to try and lynch you during the day. Why continue this conflict? Let us strike a truce!

I don’t think that would work in Fea’s or any of the mod’s plans. Also, just curious if it ever does happen, I take it modfire doesn't have a limit when there's mutiny on plot? :Merisu:

They want entertainment, from what I gather… Like any twisted author who prays on their characters *folds arms and pouts*.

I'm also toying with the idea of voting someone rather quiet just to force them to think and post.

I’ve been thinking of voting for someone who’s not so much quiet, but not as twisted the rest of us old biddies. Not because it’s fun (okay, maybe a little), but I’m really curious what will happen with the representative decision(s) if it’s not just a bunch of veterans sitting around and arguing.
It might be a little bit to help cast away the whole ‘well, y’know what we say about history…’ and, ‘the weak or strong choice’ debate.

So, maybe a new or recent player might help. In the few games I’ve been in, sometimes the less seasoned have been our better (or most unexpectant) voices of reason. Goes to show what the outside world can bring.

[Thinlómien]

What? He's a she? :DI admit I assumed her to be a he, but since she referred to herself as a girl on this thread... ;)

English is a silly language, really. :D


edit: xed with Ka(a)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I admit I assumed her to be a he, but since she referred to herself as a girl on this thread... ;)

English is a silly language, really. :D

That's been known for a long while :p

Well, I have probably subconsciously stemmed from the assumption that Ilya is a Russian male name...

[Gwathagor]

English is a silly language, really. :D




I must agree.

[the phantom]

So Aganzir has selected Brin to represent her, and Green went ahead and made her an official rep. Interesting...
But people gripe about how he has to have all the attention, yet you (and others) continually, and specifically, pinpoint him out.
Ha ha! Yes, I've noticed that before. People will make negative remarks about me being the center of attention, and of course they are the ones making it true by talking about me and my status in the village rather than simply conversing with me like anyone else.

And Nogrod- are you saying that you do not want to be made a Rep? Just wanting to get a clear picture here.

And I know I promised an updated list, but I can't make one that is worth anything. I haven't found my footing yet. Too many people have been silent thus far. I've gotten vibes from those who have talked, but nothing that would convince me. I'm having a more difficult time than usual trusting anyone for some reason. It might just be my mood, I'm not sure...

[Thinlómien]

I should go to sleep soon. I'm almost for taking a dice to decide whether to vote Shasta, Kath or Ilya... Funny, I have always been so much against random votes, but it feel so much less criminal when it's about voting a representative than about a lynchee... :D (I first wrote "lynching a representative"... :rolleyes::D)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, now on to something productive... (and no, this time it's not going to be a factory). Let me see.

From those who are around, I could pick as a Rep, like I said before, Shasta, Nogrod... possibly also Greenie, or Morm. And Boro... well, maybe just not because I am not sure what his opinions on me are... I would not like to see myself lynched by my own hands, so to speak ;) Greenie then won't be bad, she seems genuine, but her and Brinniel (whom she voted for) together... not sure if I want to give possibilities for strong coalitions. Although, some will probably arise anyway.

And I really don't like it, especially... well... you know why... but I would be actually also inclined to vote also... *gasp* The Phantom!

Really. Putting Nogrod aside, actually... EEEK! See, okay, he may be impulsive, he may be irresponsible, he is... though... now, right now his impression on me is... eeeeek... he behaved quite reasonably all the day (as much as phantom can!) and some of his questions and opinions and contributions seemed really genuine and caring about the village... *shrugs*

Well, great. Strong words at the beginning, and this is how it ends :D But really. I have to think. Huh.

EDIT: x-ed since Gwath and with Lommy and the... person... I just named... eek...

[Kath]

I'll be a Rep if you like Nogbod, though being in England and the deadline being at 4am my time and my bedtime currently being, ooh, half 11 ... well, just so you're aware of how early that vote would have to be. It would be interesting though. The reason I'm so quiet so often is simply that I'm overwhelmed by the post count, with fewer people it might make me speak more!

I'm intrigued by the seeming consensus on Brinn's innocence. Not that I think she's guilty, but why has she been so mentioned and yet so trusted? It almost seems back to front given the reaction to, say, Legate.

[Nogrod]

I guess Rune and Gil-Galad (surprise!) are the only ones who have not yet posted? Well, there are still hours to go but I do hope they join the game eventually.

Anyway, I looked over some of those who have not posted too much this far.

One post

Kath - Speaks how enthusiastic about this game she is and that's it. No posts after that. Laying low or just busy? Fits the general "Kath on Day1" scheme though... a bit too well - and that's why I'd like to see her as a representative toMorrow even if she might vote for me just out of the annoyance... :)

Nerwen - Only one post but offers an idea: either Shasta is in cahoots with tp or then Brinn as they are so extremely friendly - and no one would believe the wolves would be that obvious. A fair point looking at the time of the posting showing she's up to this game - even if I'd wish to see her post more. But I surely do wish to see her more so not someone I'd wish to see lynched toDay.

Gwath - Only posted to say "I'm reading but have nothing to contribute yet" - and that was 14 hours ago... RL and all may be factors and maybe we should not judge too heavily at this moment but he does look evasive indeed.

Two posts

Di - Makes a campaign why she should be voted as a representative. That makes her look more innocentish to me than not. Also her point on tp was reasonable even if limiting to being out of bounds and possibly misguided as well (judging from Fea's posting... butI'd underline the word possibly as there is no easy way to say what she actually means :D). I'd say she's more innocent than not.

Sally - Sadly nothing to say. Just banter. Another representative-candidate for me.

Agan - Looks more innocent than not, even if there was not much in her two posts. She's one I wouldn't like to see go this early anyway as I know she can be an asset to the village when having more time and losing one of those on Day1 is always sad.

THe Ka - She seems to be one who always flies under my radar. Her first post is merely general stuff & banter and on the second one she just mildly agrees with Boro and tp. Maybe also a candidate for being a representative so that she would have to take a stance on something and give us more clues?


EDIT: Oops, X'd with a host of posting...

[Gwathagor]

Nogbod! :D

[Kath]

Haha Nog, ruined your post, I'm in the three post zone now! Well, only two really as this one has no substance. :D

[Gwathagor]

Gwath - Only posted to say "I'm reading but have nothing to contribute yet" - and that was 14 hours ago... RL and all may be factors and maybe we should not judge too heavily at this moment but he does look evasive indeed.


It was true, though.

Currently, I think that I will either vote someone who does not want to be a rep, or vote myself.

EDIT: Can I do that? I assume I can.

[Boromir88]

I would say I'm keeping an eye on them, but in this village, one can hardly avoid paying attention to those three. :rolleyes:~Lommy
When you signed up for this were you really expecting something different?

Or maybe quietness is not the right factor but the kind of carefulness of some of us around. If we pick them as representatives they will have to take a stand.~Nogrod
Hmm interesting...you should probably know by now that whether I'm a representative or not I'm going to be doing some heavy lobbying during the 2nd 24-hour period. I would also expect that from Legate, the phantom, and any of the other more vocal players. I can certainly imagine a quiet wolf, who is not a representative, slipping under the radar even more so then they would if we all just had 1 vote. In this way, it would make the less talkative bunch take a stand, and voice their suspects.

However, I don't fully like move for playing carefully and cautiously. Look, I take risks, that's what you're going to get from me, and if I'm a rep, that's what you're going to see. I don't think making somebody a rep will change their style a great deal, if at all. All it would really do is get a concrete vote out of them. But while the voting in the game will be different, I don't think the dynamics are going to change as dramatically as what some of you are making it out to be. The bottom-line is we have lots of well-honed WW people in this village, and it's going to come down to the same situations, do we have some quiet wolves who want to stay out of the spotlight, or some bold one's who like attention, or in all probability both?

I don't like playing it safe, and I've always found people who try to play it safe suspicious. Kath, Brinn, Rune, would make great reps, if they're innocent. The phantom, Legate, Nogrod, also would be great reps if they're innocent. See the point? Just because we have a different voting system now doesn't mean it's going to change someone's ability just by slapping on the "Representative" title.

Edit: Crossing of mass proportions

-went and checked, crossed since Legate's 140

[the phantom]

I'm thinking about my rep-selection just very generally at this point. I'm thinking that I would like to give my vote to someone who has talked, and has given opinions. Partly because anyone who becomes a rep seems, to me anyway, less likely to be lynched, for they will have the protection of their voting power.

And at this stage of the village I do not want to kill someone that I firmly believe I will form an opinion on in the coming days. It is true that my opinion of them may be incorrect, but I'd rather have an opinion and be wrong than feel entirely in the dark.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I will [...] vote myself.

EDIT: Can I do that? I assume I can.


You can not.

[McCaber]

You can not.
Good. I was worried I'd have to sidetrack Gwath myself.

I'm not going to make a list of how I feel about people yet. I find that this early on everyone's mostly "innocent-ish" and/or "too quiet to tell." Perhaps during the second half of the Day.

For some reason I also really like phantom's suggestion of non-violence. If any village can pull that sort of thing off, it's this one. Representative republican anarchy.

[Nogrod]

And Nogrod- are you saying that you do not want to be made a Rep? Just wanting to get a clear picture here.Well, I'm not thinking exactly like "we're doomed if tp is not one of the reps" or that "we're doomed if tp is one of the reps". :D

To be honest I think we face quite a new situation here. It would be great if we managed to pick some great minds to solve our problems and to give us a wolf with their considerate and wise voting in the end of Day1. But just looking at the numbers and the insecurities of Day1 I do think it's not an obvious result (even if I do believe in reasoning in this game).

So on the other hand it might be good to have a few wolves on the representative's board on this Day1 just to force them to play. I mean if we had like two or three wolves on there they would be easier to catch playing it together (or trying to avoid giving the impression of that) than if they all had a chance to lay low outside the governing body of the reps.

Also, putting some quiet or really careful players into the representative government might ease our chances to have a take on them as they would then leave a definite mark of their stance. Yes, innocents can have it wrong but as the wolves know they are faking it they - at least some of them - could be caught that way.

So, I have no clear picture about wishing you to be a rep or not tp. Maybe I'd like to see someone of whom I feel to be more evasive to be my representative on this first Day at least?

[the phantom]

If you are indeed considering me as an option, I would have you know clearly where I stand on the idea of being a rep.

If made a rep, I would attempt to use my voting power to put pressure on others in order to get them to give opinions. Along the lines of "I'd like to vote for so-and-so, but if he steps up and gives me something maybe I won't".

As far as actual Wolf-voting success, I certainly can't promise much on a Day 1, and wouldn't be much more accurate than random selection. The clear advantage to choosing me is simply the fact that I am not a Werewolf.

However, as that fact cannot possibly be known or trusted coming from my mouth, that's not particularly convincing.

All told, I feel no need to campaign for the position of Rep. I'd be more comfortable in an advisory capacity. The only reason I feel compelled to wish for votes is simply for the sake of self-protection, and because I know that those votes might otherwise have supported a Werewolf. Of course that is to be balanced with the pressure I'd feel not to do something disasterous with my vote (lynch the Seer).

Anyway, that's where I stand. Nog- what are your feelings towards receiving my rep vote?

Boro? Legate? Anyone else?

EDIT: x-posted with Fea onward

[Thinlómien]

THe Ka - She seems to be one who always flies under my radar. Her first post is merely general stuff & banter and on the second one she just mildly agrees with Boro and tp. Maybe also a candidate for being a representative so that she would have to take a stance on something and give us more clues?I think she might be a good choice. However, she's not my choice. I've decided to try

++Ilya for representative

Because I really want to know her better, and I would also welcome some fresh views in the final debates.

When you signed up for this were you really expecting something different?Well, honestly, no. :D But I like all of you, so don't be too worried, my dear Mr88. ;)


edit: xed with Nogboot and phandoom

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

*sighs* It really looks like either Shasta or... do you have such a proverb in English? "Who cries the loudest not to do something, is first to do it?" (Along these lines.) I am still not placing aside Greenie, but there's the thing I said above. (And it has one practical disadvantage too, she'll have to post... hey, but that's not gonna matter now...) Otherwise, hmm... Nog, you said you are not much for being a Rep tomorrow? Time-wise?

I'll see how I long I stay around here yet... perhaps for long enough to make some clearer image of whom to vote (this is actually fine, as it sounds a lot better than in the usual context, even though the phrase used is the same). Hmm... may as well start to ask people considered...

EDIT: x-ed with those after Fea

[Ilya]

Ok, to clear up the question raised about me: From the Quena Lapseparma:
EMMA (f.) - probably Ger. 'entire, whole'; ilya "all", thus Ilya itself or Ilye
And to further up my dork count, the handle is for Ms. Austen's Emma, not for my name. Although, yeah, it is also kinda the Russian form of Elijah, too. Silly English. And silly Russian. And silly Elvish, come to that.

It's really interesting to read all y'all's lists, so I'm making one, little sense though that makes.

Aganzir - I got nothing.
Boromir88 - Seems the sensible sort, but I don't know yet.
Brinniel - Everybody seems to trust her, and there's no reason from her posts for me not to, so naturally I'm highly suspicious.
Diamond18 - I dunno if that post was just her usual voice, but it felt weird to me.
Eönwë - No idea.
Gil-Galad - He's a friend of Perky. That means wolf.
Little Green - Makes a lot of sense. Probably innocent and my suspicions are further proof of an undiagnosed paranoia syndrome.
Gwathagor - ли́чно я с ним незнако́м. (I don't know him).
Ilya - Possibly a Tolstoy protagonist.
Legate - One of the vets that have overwhelmed me with posts. They all make sense, but I'm a little skittish right now of people who are posting long posts and posting a lot, not because it's a bad thing. The more people post the more we have on them, I'm just not used to the high rate and length of posts, is all.
Lommy - I agree with Legate. She seems genuine.
Kath - I don't know why, but I'm trusting her right now.
McCaber - Also seems innocent, although poking the phantom could be a great cover for a wolf.
mormegil -Also one of the vets who's already intimidated me.
Nerwen - No se.
Nogrod - Makes a lot of valid points. Not sure I'd want him for my rep just yet, but seems very focused.
Rune - Also a friend of Perky's. Totally a wolf.
Sally - Dunno.
Shasta - I like his handle. Has a lot to say, but I'm not sure I'm getting all of it.
The Ka - Also love the handle if it's from where I think it's from. I'd like to hear more from her.
the phantom - How does one judge an entity? I'm buying into tp so far, although I don't want to make him a rep, just because I know he'll contribute anyway.

As to making "quiet" people reps in order to draw more out of them, I think there ought to be a mix of uber-posters and lurkers. Or to put it another way, it's a good idea to flush out those of us who aren't speaking, but it's also a good idea to let at least one experienced writes-a-lot have the power to vote, so that all the reps can't fall back on tp's or Legate's or Shasta's Day 2 arguments.

[Nogrod]

hmm... Nog, you said you are not much for being a Rep tomorrow? Time-wise?We have an essay-ranking meeting in the afternoon and I have no idea how long it will last. In the best case I'm free from early evening (like from 3-5PM GMT, +2 GMT to me that is) and in the worst I'll come home just a few hours before I have to go to sleep.

So I will definitively play tomorrow (RL) but the question is only whether I have time like I had today or whether it would be just reading it through and naking a few posts.

EDIT: "Naking a few points"? ... Making? :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Boro? Legate? Anyone else?

Well, if you ask about receiving your vote, if you feel up to it - see, I will accept; the only thing worth considering is whether you consider it worth with my schedule, as I said (above - something like being here, and now it seems like rather briefly, in some 11 hours since now, and then for perhaps longer period some 6 hours before the DL itself). So - you can take that I make a responsible vote, as much as it will be possible (for that I suggest you go through my later post a bit to learn my "program" :D , as little as there is), but not count much on my participation in discussion during the course of the Day - only on several isolated moments, hours, let's say.

As for that, now in the light of what you said, I have to think once again about voting you. But that has time - also if Nog replies to me.

I would rather vote for really one of the more, hmm, vocal players, and those about whom I have some idea rather than complete enigmas, although I can see where Nog is going. Later.

[the phantom]

I'm going to try and read, in a row, posts by individuals who have made a significant contribution thus far. I don't know if it'll help, but we'll see...

[Thinlómien]

I'm going to try and read, in a row, posts by individuals who have made a significant contribution thus far. I don't know if it'll help, but we'll see...It will be interesting to see what will count as "significant contribution"...

[Kath]

Right, I'm off now so let's try this new-fangled voting.

++Lommy for Rep

She strikes me as pretty trustworthy at the moment and I also think she'll hold to her own opinion even if the other Reps are pretty strongwilled, and on Day 1 I think that's good.

[the phantom]

Quickly- people have mentioned voting for submarines and forcing them to stand up. I'm not sure where I stand on that. I agree with the principle that villagers should be forced to give opinions, but I'm not sure I like the idea of giving power to unknowns.

What if we decide to vote for Rune and then he comes in and says, "Yay! I'm a rep! I say we kill ++Nog!" It would leave me feeling extremely foolish.

[Boromir88]

Partly because anyone who becomes a rep seems, to me anyway, less likely to be lynched, for they will have the protection of their voting power.~the phantom
I disagree, not in the way that it's wrong, but I would like to see that someone is not considered a viable lynch by the other representatives, solely for that fact that said person is a representative. Because, I would bet at least once in this village, wolves would elect one of their mates as a rep.

I think we're un-needlessly complicating the "Who I want as a rep" situation. I don't like the idea of putting a suspected/possible wolf as a rep, for the purpose of getting a concrete vote out of them. Nogrod, if you're not a wolf, I know you won't let the quiet ones slip unnoticed, and if you are a wolf, you still won't let the quiet ones slip unnoticed.

What's the reward here? I want someone who I trust is innocent, as well as someone who will represent my voice. That simple. We have an advantage in numbers, and the advantage of not allowing the wolves get control of who gets lynched. Yes, ordo's will make mistakes, but at least I know they mean for the best. Because the fact is, as hard as we could try to not get a wolf in as a rep, it's going to happen, period. That doesn't mean we should help them out and hand them the reigns.

Boro? Legate? Anyone else?~the phantom
Do you mean if you were to cast me as a rep? Oh the power of having the phantom's endorsement would be overwelming.

Ok, but seriously now, I think I said before whether I have any voting power the next 24 hours or not, I'm still going to be active and lobbying. That's not going to change. Or if you want to put it this way, I aint gonna shut up.

That's enough for me about the dynamics of representatives, when I return from dinner I will log my thoughts and make a decision on my rep.

[Thinlómien]

Wow, Kath, that came rather unexpectedly. :D Thank you, I guess. I'm not sure I'd be über-glad to be a rep, though - I have very little idea about who's a wolf. Well, there's plenty of time still...


What if we decide to vote for Rune and then he comes in and says, "Yay! I'm a rep! I say we kill ++Nog!" It would leave me feeling extremely foolish.For sure. But I think in his case it's just that he hasn't realised this game has started, or something, so I'd hesitate to use him as an example... but the general point kind of makes sense. Although, whatever he'd say would give a better picture of him than nothing, if you know what I mean.


edit: xed with Boro

[Nogrod]

I'm tempted to make Ilya our second representative right now with a second vote. I think she might be one we should see there. I mean even if she is an old sport around here she's quite unknown to us later-comers in here and I really would like to see what she does - and looking at her last post just made me a bit more confident about her. So she might be something like a compromise to me: someone whom I could trust a bit to be having the good of the village in her eyes and someone I might learn more of (to trust her later or not) were she chosen as a representative.

I think I will go for exploration of unknown territories toDay. It may / will be different later in the game. Then we really have to think about whom we trust and not so much whom we'd like to see there to learn.

But you who stay up later to the game should really look for us having a fair amount of representatives and no-one of them having like 10 votes... That's too risky at this point of the game.

---

I see Kath has voted. A good point indeed (and I do share her feeling about Lommy, at least for now) which I might follow if I would suddenly be tempted not to wish to have a look at Ilya making it as a representative which I think might be both a "securish" as the feeling goes and also a learning experience for the Days to come - to whomever they come.

I see your point tp and I do appreciate it. But as I said it's Day1 and we have a rare occasion to test people's reactions in this kind of game - for good or bad. I mean we all can post on the next 24-hours and make our points heard. So then someone going rampant would have to face the consequences, right?

Gah, I need to decide and soon as it's approaching 1AM here...

[the phantom]

My read-throughs thus far-

Shasta- Despite his high number of posts, I am not able to form an opinion on him. I'd like to see a few more serious opinions from him.
Boromir- I have not received a full read on him yet, but his vibes thus far have been innocent.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading. Will post momentarily. Hi everyone. :)

[THE Ka]

Two posts

Correction, I've made three posts. Though, as if it makes a difference...;)

*shrug* If you want to vote this way, that's cool.

Sorry for the indifference, I'm hung up over whom I want to vote for now. Ilya is certainly appealing for pervious reasons I've mentioned already (repeating is annoying, frankly), but so are a few others.

Plus, a little bit of difference on the take of things between base and representative would more than likely force others and I to have an opinion. Especially if said representative acted in a way that I dissagreed with.
I'm liking the idea of a healthy dose of friction as a self-help. It might seem a gamble, but I guess that's what I get for working at a casino.

++Boro88 for Representative

I've always liked Boro88's level of common sense, even if it's not exactly how I or whom I trust as innocent see the situation. Plus, I agree with his point of action on that representatives are not going to morph into something completely different just because they have their own playing field later on.

Habits taken in, I'm horribly notorious for being an observer and probably too cautious. It definately works some of the time, but I like the idea of my representative taking a risk, and thus making myself more involved and opiniated. I'm not definate of anyone's real role just yet, but I know if something bothers me enough I form more of an action and want to help problem-solve.


Okay, I have to leave for work and bring food to poker players. Later.

~ Ka

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Notable occurrences:

Agan and Greenie making Brinniel a representative. I was actually leaning towards voting for her myself, but now it seems my vote won't be needed.
Greenie made a list, with which I agree, on some people.

Especially phantom. :p

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not nearly as anti-Phantom as I usually am, because he's been making good points and asking fair questions. It just annoys me that the discussion becomes so very Phantom-o-centric. There are other issues and other people playing, after all.

There's also been some discussion on "weak" and "strong" reps. I think I am correct (though feel free to correct me) in saying that the Representative's power is based on how many votes he or she received; a Rep with 4 votes will have double the voting power than a Rep with only 2 votes.

Legate also made a list. What's odd is that he seems to be on very good terms with both Boromir and Phantom... a bit flip-floppy on Phantom, actually, based on his earlier attitude. I think Lommy's right about a possible Boro-Phantom-Legate triangle, but to what purpose? Surely they're not all wolves... are they?

In this game the situation is a bit different in the way that we have 48 hours to post on any given Day. But if someone is not able to actually post anything "substantive" in 48 hours (or like within 10 pages of posting) I'd be even more inclined to vote those people out on the first Days. Unless that is if there are no better... (I just don't want to hear those certain arguments again for the hundreth time).

I agree with this, actually. In a game of this type, I think it's much more important to not let people slip under the radar. I think I could vote for Nogrod for rep today, but I'll keep looking.

I've noticed a couple of people have been thinking of voting me. Hooray, it makes me feel special. :D I'll use a seperate post as my "campaign" post, so as to not muck this one up.

Who's Immanuel Kent? I feel out of the loop.

Ka is one person I'm getting a weird feeling about. She hasn't said much, but I'd like to look at her later.

McCaber is also slipping nicely under my radar, but that's usual.

Also, putting some quiet or really careful players into the representative government might ease our chances to have a take on them as they would then leave a definite mark of their stance. Yes, innocents can have it wrong but as the wolves know they are faking it they - at least some of them - could be caught that way.

I disagree. I don't think quiet players... hmm, I'm not sure how to put this without sounding mean. I'm not sure quiet players will have participated enough to know what is in the best interests of the village. Did that come out alright? I apologize if it didn't.

All told, I feel no need to campaign for the position of Rep. I'd be more comfortable in an advisory capacity.

In other words, you want to be the power behind the throne. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm fine with being made a Rep. I'm gonna be here for the deadline, and I promise, I won't arbitrarily vote Phantom (unless warranted :p).

As for opinions, I really don't think quiet, unobtrusive players should get nearly as much leeway as they do in regular games. If you're not talking, you're not participating, and if you're not participating, you're not working for the good of the village.

[Eönwë]

About ye filibustere-

I think that today, there is really no need for them. They won't actually help anyone (we know nothing) and there's really no point in doing one. However, if someone wants to waste their filibuster today (this early on), eho am I to stop them?

Reading page 4...

[Nogrod]

I'm just wondering why you tp and Boro are so much against some risks or tests on Day1 in this kind of a game?

I would hate to see a scenario where some of the "generally trusted veterans" would make all the votes when we have this kind of opportunity to try things in the first Days.

Sure you're right (whoever it was to point it out) that we should be careful not to vote for any clear clicks as our representatives - like even if I feel pretty good about Greenie at the moment I wouldn't like her to be a representative for us just because Brinn already is.

And a Day or two later - God willing - I will cling to those I really trust as the stakes will be higher and the chances for curiosity and risk-taking becomes more dangerous.

Shasta- Despite his high number of posts, I am not able to form an opinion on him. I'd like to see a few more serious opinions from him.
Agreed to the fullest... Although we have some others who have done even worse, like Eonwë and McCaber who have posted a few more times than those who have not posted anything or just one or two posts (which I think is bad playing - timezones and RL issues to be taken in as factors to be sure), and still there is no actual input in there. The downside to this is of course that at least some of them tend to do that as an ordo as well and so it's not so much a case against them but more like a stance on how this game should be played.

Who's Immanuel Kent?Hush! Talking about the most famous barber-shop talk-about from the age of our forefathers, Immanuel of Kent that is (you never took a serious look of those minor characters in the Shakespeare plays on the War of the Roses? :D), might cause a modfire...


Okay. I really seem to be cross posting with too much...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Agreed to the fullest... Although we have some others who have done even worse, like Eonwë and McCaber who have posted a few more times than those who have not posted anything or just one or two posts (which I think is bad playing - timezones and RL issues to be taken in as factors to be sure), and still there is no actual input in there. The downside to this is of course that at least some of them tend to do that as an ordo as well and so it's not so much a case against them but more like a stance on how this game should be played.

Have I really not been being clear? :( I've been trying, I swear...

[the phantom]

My read-through is being interrupted by something. That something is that I'm at work and must occasionally keep children from killing each other. :rolleyes:

But I've finished Nog at least. So my updated read-through list-

Shasta- Despite his high number of posts, I am not able to form an opinion on him. I'd like to see a few more serious opinions from him. (He seems to be back now, and my opinion of him might change soon.)
Boromir- I have not received a full read on him yet, but his vibes thus far have been innocent.
Nogrod- I find myself suspecting him for no reason whatsoever, but he makes sense and his talk seems to make for a productive and thoughtful atmosphere, and so I am more than willing to push my weak feelings of mistrust aside for now.

[mormegil]

Sorry I just got home and was in an all day meeting so I am far too behind to catch up in the next few hours so I will vote for a rep now. As stated earlier I'm going with those who I consider intelligent, I have a history with and who I generally trust...they must meet all 3 requirement. While I normally trust the phantom the vibe I'm getting from him this round is odd, not necessarily bad but enough to eliminate him as a choice...plus I wouldn't want to feed the ego any more. That leaves Boro, Diamond and Nog. I haven't read anything from any of them. Boro has burned my trust in the past, but he's also saved me...Nogrod is intense as is Diamond and all are very thoughtful and analytical.

++Nogrod for rep

Boro already has a vote and I presume will get another. I would be comfortable having both Nog and Boro as reps. Sorry Diamond, I have a longer history with Nog so he won out.

Now off to fill out forms for grad school.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right. Let's see. Shasta the Returned makes me kind of more doubtful than when I have seen him at the beginning.

As for Mr. P., he is really... eh... racing up on my list. Good reasons to vote him?

A) I don't think he'd be a Wolf.
B) I am quite inclined to trust he would do something in whatever situation: only maybe a bit worried what all possible "somethings" may occur.
C) Voting him as Rep would actually move him to vote, for his own, and not just be the grey eminence. May be helpful.
And at last, D), don't say it won't be really classic to vote him, now that I was the one to shout about it before the game even started...

[Brinniel]

Oh geez, so many posts. No wonder I always have such trouble keeping up on Day 1. :rolleyes:

When it comes to voting for a rep...

I think I'd like to avoid voting for one of the louder players for toDay. Innocent or not, some of these players talk so much that it becomes easy to overlook the quieter players. Which may be a reason why the louder players often seem to die first and the quiet players don't get noticed until later when you only just realise they're not dead yet. At the same time though, I don't think I'd want to vote someone who's too quiet (as it seems others are contemplating). Because if all the reps were silent players who only made one or two posts, then I don't think very much progress will be made towards lynching a wolf. So perhaps someone in between loud and quiet.

And when it comes to picking a rep, it's obviously gotta be someone whose judgement I trust. Of course I want to vote someone I think is more likely innocent than not, though that may pose difficult at this early stage when I seem to think everyone looks innocent. :rolleyes:

As of now, my top two candidates are Kath and Shasta...two players who make good judgements and whose voices haven't been strongly heard yet (while Shasta's made a high number of posts, I wouldn't consider him a loud player as far as substance goes).

Though I could also consider Aganzir who also makes wise choices, at least when she's innocent. I usually can get a good read off of her though this time not so much since she's only posted twice (what's up with that?). But voting her as rep would be one way to get a better read of her.

I could also consider voting Di, who made such an excellent campaign for herself. ;)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm going to eat, but I'll be back soon. Parting thoughts:

1. I'm having a bit of an issue with Legate's voting stance, even though it's been thrashed out on the thread already. There was one post I read that sounded sensible, but then another that made me go "Huh?"

2. I like Boro's voting stance; it's somewhat like my own. When I vote for a Rep, I want it to be someone who thinks similarly to me; the whole point of voting a Representative, after all, is to have your voice heard, so if you vote for a Rep whose thoughts are drastically different from your own, whether or not they seem to be trustworthy... :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

I've finished two more, and I'll update Shasta-

Shasta- I like that he is being vocal, but he is much different than the last time I saw him. But if I'm not mistaken he was very busy last time, so that is to be expected. Due to my lack of feeling on him I certainly don't feel like I can trust him, but I'm certainly not feeling like being rid of him. He gives me someone to talk to in the early hours. :D
Boromir- I have not received a full read on him yet, but his vibes thus far have been innocent.
Nogrod- I find myself suspecting him for no reason whatsoever, but he makes sense and his talk seems to make for a productive and thoughtful atmosphere, and so I am more than willing to push my weak feelings of mistrust aside for now.
Lommy- Nothing she's saying is setting off alarms, so I'm fine with her for now.
Legate- I swing back and forth on Legate when I read him. But for now, see my reaction to Nogrod.

Okay, that's all the read-throughs for now. I covered everyone with double-digit posts.

[the phantom]

morm feels... busy. I can't read him yet.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All in all... I am in a bit of anti-Nerwen mood (stated above, I am used to her posting, and posting sense: just what was that?), and in a bit of anti-Brinn mood (this "large front of support" simply does not sit well with me, taken that Brinn, from my part, gets no reading) and Shasta-worry mood (somehow, I get the feeling he is very randomly picking things from the thread even though he just skimmed through it - or so is the impression it makes on me). Anyway... should vote for a rep soon... phantom! Answer me. Would you accept, if I give you my vote?

[the phantom]

phantom! Answer me. Would you accept, if I give you my vote?
I would certainly do everything possible to bring about a favorable outcome for the village. But of course I would require one additional vote to become a Rep. If you think that I am likely to gain that vote then feel free to go on. But if you don't think it's likely, I would not want you throwing your power away.

[the phantom]

I'll have to give Brin and Green a read-through later. If I'm remembering right Brin didn't give me anything yet, and I didn't like Green for some reason. But as I said, I need to dedicate a reading to them. Perhaps in an hour or so.

[Eönwë]

English is a silly language, really. :D

Well, I have probably subconsciously stemmed from the assumption that Ilya is a Russian male name...

Yep and Yep.

Werewolves, I have an idea! We can make peace! If you will agree not to kill us during the night, we will agree not to try and lynch you during the day. Why continue this conflict? Let us strike a truce!

I thought you wanted some fun.;) Anyway, if I was to take this seriously, I would say that this would be an easy way for you to disguise your views and opinions of people. But I don't:p

[Nogrod]

I was a bit torn between Ilya and Lommy as my choices but I will be sticking to my curiousity this Day and vote for

++ Ilya

... thus making her a second representative.

I kind of agree with most of her actual points she made in her list (not all).

To be more exact: I agree with her about

- Boro being sensible but being not sure about him. But clearly, lynching him on Day1 would be very bad playing indeed.
- Brinn feeling generally good by a bit too many of us and thence worth suspecting just because of that if not for any other reason (even if my instincts go for saying she's an innocent - but that's what they always seem to be doing - and that's another reason to be uncomfortable with her).
- Greenie looking more innocent than not.
- Lommy feeling genuine... at least this far. With her I know she can totally fool me... Like Greenie can... Too close, too hard to fathom?
- With tp I'm also ready to buy it so far although I'm not feeling too secure with him either. But surely lynching him toDay would be a cardinal mistake. Believe me or not, but if he's a baddie he can be caught at some point - and if his intentions are good he will be an asset to us.

I do somewhat disagree with her about:

- Di whose vote and posts looked like more sincere than not (fex. the wish to be a rep).
- Legate tends to write a lot and so it's no reason to suspect him as such. And his few defences toDay really looked more like an innocent's points.
- Kath I do not trust (she makes it through the first Days too easily as a tactical manouver like this every time) - even if I don't find her especially suspicious either at this point of the game.
- I don't see where the point of McCaber poking at tp was coming from (maybe I just missed a post?) or how would it talk about his innocense or guilt?

Okay... 5-4 with agreeing... not too confident indeed as I now look at it.

But let's see to it.


We can all talk the next 24 hours even if not all of us can vote in the end... and even if tp thinks the representatives being less likely to be lynched (which might be psychologically true looking at the Day where the reps have a kind of talk within themselves), they can be lynched afterwards if they seem to play it foul. So choosing a representative is not giving someone a safety option. On the contrary, I think it can be a challenge - at least to the wolves as they need to actually vote and leave a track.


PS. Eonwë: is that all you can say with four pages of discussion made? (EDIT: actually we're on page five already! ;))

[Eönwë]

Well, this is a very unproductive day.

I'm was thinking of voting Nogrod- he seems very reasonable and is talking a lot of sense (but maybe trying to be too helpful). He would have gotten my vote but for his time constraints. And now it seems if I do vote for him then he becomes a rep. So, I won't force it on him.

Then there is Ilya, but I don't really know her well enough yet, though she seems innocent enough.

Then there's Greenie. I just feel good vibes from her post, and she seems innocent, and also seems to be looking at things similarly to me. But then she voted Brinniel, which I wouldn't do. What the heck...

++A Little Green for Representative

[Gwathagor]

It might seem a gamble, but I guess that's what I get for working at a casino.



Casinos: the red man's revenge.

Ok, so toDay I am voting

++Nogrod

as my representative. I think he'd do a good job of keeping the quiet players on their toes, making the ranks of the sub-reindeer-sitters a less than safe place for a wolf to hide. This, at any rate, is my hope.

[satansaloser2005]

Good. Freaking. Gravy. I'm at work for only a few hours and....wow.

*goes to catch up*



Telling you all now that toDay I'm going to be extremely scarce. So on the off chance someone wanted me to be a rep (not likely, but still) don't do it. I'm going to have enough trouble keeping up as it is, at least tonight.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would certainly do everything possible to bring about a favorable outcome for the village. But of course I would require one additional vote to become a Rep. If you think that I am likely to gain that vote then feel free to go on. But if you don't think it's likely, I would not want you throwing your power away.

Hmm... I was taking a look on how this is looking this far... Brinn, that's for granted. Then Nogrod, Boro, Lommy... all I consider innocent-ish, not sure if I'd vote them all, I have perhaps a bit for and perhaps a bit against every one of them... Ilya, I don't know anything about (yet I agree with those who say she seems reasonable), but perhaps she has support from somebody else...

There is still a large bunch of people going to vote, but I wonder if it is good to spread the votes yet, or not... though better if we have five reps than three, if you get my meaning. Being in the position of the "beginner", I may give some good starting position to a person to whom I give one vote...

In either case, I will be careful about giving too much executive power to one person: that means, let's hope all the Wolves are not Americans.

I actually have very good reasons, and would be even in the mood of voting for Nogrod. That would mean easing up things a lot, for certain. Still, if I only knew how others are going to vote... if tp is likely to get at least one vote more, indeed... (or again, if I knew he's going to get fifty votes, I'd also have no problems with choosing).

What about flipping a coin? ;) Last time, it worked... sort of (well, I was picking from two Innocents. Hey, while, this time it would be good :) )

Nay, let me see - if there is any really good time in the game to vote tp, it would be possibly now. Later, if I were unsure, I would pick less... hmm... eccentric people. Now I am only maybe somewhat not entirely sure about where tp's suspicions would be going (says the one who said it does not make any difference... apparently, this game is full of switches on my part). As for what Nog says about people he suspects or not, he actually fits well the patterns of mine: that is, thinking innocent those I think innocent - more or less - and I can go with most of his opinions. But then... just, heck, let us get moving. Nogrod is probable to get a vote anyway, I think - and about the phantom, then I say, let us see. ToMorrow, he, or anybody else, still can be switched - that's the advantage of the democracy.

So:

++The Phantom for Representative

*gasp* I actually did that. Tp, I hope you are going to keep that signature of yours for long. For it proves: "Kdo to říká, ten to je, k tomu se to šikuje" ("Whoever says it, is one who does it, to him all's moving, to him all flocks it"). First to deny it, first to do it.

Goodbye and see you in a short while tomorrow.

EDIT: x-ed since phantom's last one. Okay, I say.

[the phantom]

Ilya looks like she'll be around and will give opinions, so I don't mind that selection at all. I hope to get to know her better via her status as Rep.

And I agree with Gwath's nomination. On Day 1 I can hardly expect Nog to pick accurately, but I do expect that he will use good standards for voting.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

E-eek.

Just could not resist: Really a bad one from my point of view.

Well, this is a very unproductive day.
Really? And what would you consider productive (than five pages)? And that says the one who gives two one-liners and then votes.

I'm was thinking of voting Nogrod- he seems very reasonable and is talking a lot of sense (but maybe trying to be too helpful). He would have gotten my vote but for his time constraints. And now it seems if I do vote for him then he becomes a rep. So, I won't force it on him.

And this I call kind of an alibism, of sorts. But okay. Well, I am really raising my eyebrows at this post.

And now finally goodnight.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I should probably vote now, just on the off chance that rehearsal runs long. So without further ado...

++ Aganzir for Representative

[Boromir88]

Shasta, may I ask what's your motive in pointing out a Legate-phantom-Boro triangle? I'll give you the jovialness with the phantom, but I'm not sure how I've been friendly towards Legate; considering I said he rang me suspicious alarm and I have yet to recant that statement.

I'm just wondering why you tp and Boro are so much against some risks or tests on Day1 in this kind of a game?~Nogrod
Either just by random innocencentness or through wolvish intent, a wolf will end up a representative at some time during this game, so why help them out? I like being risky, but it better have a big pay off. I don't see a big reward in handing a suspected wolf a right to vote. As I said, this is our advantage, a chance for wolves not to muddy-up the voting tally, we should use it. If I can help it, I would not like to give the wolves voting power.

On morm...Nothing stands out about a guilt or innocence. He was involved early, talked about devising a plan, which I know morm loves organization, and definitely off-the-wall plans. He was an early possibility as a representative, but now is out of the race, due to his business/lack of time.

On Nogrod...it struck me odd at first why he wants to advocate the less-loud villagers as representatives, considering he usually goes after them. But, now it looks like an attempt to get more involvement out of the quieter ones. I just don't think it's going to work, because I don't think being a rep will change anyone's style. Also, if Nogrod can not be a representative, it could be an attempt to keep the power out of people who could potentially be dangerous for a wolf-Nogrod. What is Nogrod really up to? Care to answer?

I feel good about Ilya, but I'm going to run back over Lommy's post. I have this strange churn in my stomach about her, and maybe that's just because several people feel she's looking innocent.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta, may I ask what's your motive in pointing out a Legate-phantom-Boro triangle? I'll give you the jovialness with the phantom, but I'm not sure how I've been friendly towards Legate; considering I said he rang me suspicious alarm and I have yet to recant that statement.

Hmm. Perhaps it's more of an angle, with Phantom at the center. I just latched on to Lommy's phrase because I saw the same thing she did.

[Boromir88]

And lastly, since no one has brought it up yet, it's perfectly possible that innocent people will elect one or more wolves as their representatives and thereby wolves could be trying to seem reasonable and trustworthy just to gather innocent rep votes.~Lommy
-from somewhere way back on the 3rd page
Wolves will lay low, stay out of things to let innocents lynch innocents, or they will attempt to get rep votes by sounding reasonable? Which one is it Lommy?

Hmm. Perhaps it's more of an angle, with Phantom at the center. I just latched on to Lommy's phrase because I saw the same thing she did.~Shasta
Latched on to Lommy? Oddly enough that makes me feel you're innocentish.

[the phantom]

...Legate-phantom-Boro triangle...
Well- I... er... wasn't aware that either of them were interested in me. And I can certainly say that my interests lie elsewhere, so the theory is flawed.

I'm holding out for one of our dear Mod-Goddesses. ;)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well- I... er... wasn't aware that either of them were interested in me. And I can certainly say that my interests lie elsewhere, so the theory is flawed.

I'm holding out for one of our dear Mod-Goddesses. ;)

I never said love-triangle... your dirty mind thought that up all on its own. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

This post doesn't mean much, I just want the vicarious thrill of posting in the middle of rehearsal, watching The Odd Couple. :D

[satansaloser2005]

Well- I... er... wasn't aware that either of them were interested in me. And I can certainly say that my interests lie elsewhere, so the theory is flawed.

I'm holding out for one of our dear Mod-Goddesses. ;)


*stops reading long enough to roll her eyes*


Gah. Some initial vibes from what I've seen. Mind you, spur of the moment, gut stuff, most of it kind of silly, so if I read things again I may change my mind. [/sleepy disclaimers]


Phantom: needs to shut his gob. ;) I'm trying to decide if his questions are really to get more *cough* unnecessary *cough* information or if he's just being talkative to be a distraction. But he's always like this. *sigh*
Shasta: he's psychic?!?!?!?!?!?!? *covers head in tinfoil*
Legate: seems fairly sensible and help out-ish.
Boro:
Nog:
Eon: See the post where he says (I believe) that the discussion so far is pointless. This strikes me as very odd. We have to do our best on the first day (not that I like them either) and no discussion is pointless/unhelpful in the wolf-catching effort. Especially in a village this size, the more people talk the more we have to use to evaluate them.
Morm: Monkey with a gun. Yipes. But for some reason my Morm sensor is NEVER right. Ridiculous, really. I think he's innocent, so he must be guilty.
Cabbie:
Gwath:
Brinn:
Ilya: Haven't played with her before, but she strikes me as almost too innocent. Then again, I'm paranoid. WHY ARE YOU ALL LOOKING AT ME?!?!??
Kath:
Ka: cute little posts (at least the ones I've read so far) and fairly friendly. Which isn't to say that Ka's not always friendly, or that wolves have to be rude, but she seems legit, at least for now.
Greenie: Sneaky little minx. Is she a wolf in this game? I'll let you know, but for now I don't think so.
Agan: always a wolf. Always.
Di:
Nerwen:
Fea: is the den mother. obviously. I mean, how hard is it to see, people? She's obviously evil! *runs off flailing* hehe

If there's nothing by your name I think nothing of you. (Take that how you like heh. Kidding, kidding.) Off to term paper world.


EDIT: x'd with two Shasta's. Odd Couple. Oooo....

[the phantom]

Sally seems okay thus far. Boro still hasn't set off an alarm. So far so good.

My Brin and Green read-through will have to wait though. I have a task that I must complete in RL.

And I just realized that there is no rush anyway, because we still have another day of Day 1 left to us. All that I need to be sure and do is vote for a Rep, and I'll certainly get that in before the deadline.

[satansaloser2005]

Going to take a nap, children.


My original rep choice was going to be Noggie, followed by Phantom, Agan, and Legate in no particular order. Noggie's already got his two required rep points, and I know that Phantom will be paying attention to the game (too much, if anything, heh) so he'd be a good choice too. However, my vote goes to....


++Legate for representative



I feel fairly comfortable with my choice, so if anyone wants to back me up on it (someone might have already, I know for a fact I didn't catch all the votes) feel free.


EDIT: x'd with Phantom.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm holding out for one of our dear Mod-Goddesses.

And I hope you and Mith will be very happy together.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And I hope you and Mith will be very happy together.

Oh burrrrn. :p

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oh burrrrn.

Not at all. He has long believed her secret real life identity is this lovely lady (http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/rW/kate-beckinsale-3-0308-lg.jpg)... I simply can't compete.

[Boromir88]

Fea, aren't you dead?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea, aren't you dead?

Only on the inside, darling...

[Boromir88]

Only on the inside, darling...
In that case...hypothetically speaking, if I was the seer and I hypothetically dreamed of you what would you send back in response?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

In that case...hypothetically speaking, if I was the seer and I hypothetically dreamed of you what would you send back in response?

"Braaaaainnnssss"?

[Boromir88]

Agan seems pretty genuine in her first post. I would like to go with her as my rep, but have some questions as far as her involvement in the next 24-hour period. Hmm...doubt she'll be back before this 1st period ends.

Brinn, what do you think about being chosen by Agan and Greenie?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

In that case...hypothetically speaking, if I was the seer and I hypothetically dreamed of you what would you send back in response?

"To my dear and respected Seer: I am the Puppet-Master and you are merely a hand-painted marionette."

[Boromir88]

I want you to be my rep Shasta, the only reservations I have is if you do get the power, I can picture you using it to end up lynching me for sweet vengeance.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I want you to be my rep Shasta, the only reservations I have is if you do get the power, I can picture you using it to end up lynching me for sweet vengeance.

Well, right now I don't really think you're a wolf, Boro, and contrary to popular belief, I don't consider myself to be spiteful. :p

[Boromir88]

Well, right now I don't really think you're a wolf, Boro, and contrary to popular belief, I don't consider myself to be spiteful. :p~Shasta
I guess if I went with someone else, that would make me the spiteful one then. :eek:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I guess if I went with someone else, that would make me the spiteful one then. :eek:

I never said that... :rolleyes: :p

[Boromir88]

To hopefully make it easier on the adored puppet-master.

The Reps (votes):

Brinniel (2)
Ilya (2)
Nogrod (2)

People with 1 vote:

Lommy
Boro
Greenie
the phantom
Aganzir
Legate

I never said that...:rolleyes: :p~Shasta
Nope, I did.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nope, I did.


It was a joke...

[Boromir88]

I thought it was about time, but forgot we're going by the 'Downs clock which is a good half-hour behind my phone.

[Boromir88]

It was a joke...~Shasta
You couldn't just let me try to drown myself with guilt? :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You couldn't just let me try to drown myself with guilt? :p

Admirable, but unnecessary. :p

[Ilya]

As I have a film test tomorrow, I'm going to pretty much be out for the night, although I'll try to (procrastinate) check back in around the deadline. So, my vote:

++Boro88 for representative

Even though I'm still not quite sure about him, his logic is sound and his points all seem worth consideration.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Fifty minutes till deadline, right?

[the phantom]

Oh burrrrn.
I think not. As Mith is the only unattached Moddess, my comment was clearly directed at her.

All right, I promised I'd look at Brin and Green.

I have no opinion on them. Nothing they have said has tripped an alarm, but I also have no particular reason to trust them.

Thus neither of them will be receiving my Rep-vote.

Now, stealing the list and updating it-

The Reps (votes):

Brinniel- (2)
Ilya- (2)
Nogrod- (2)
Boro (2)

People with 1 vote:

Lommy
Greenie
the phantom
Aganzir
Legate

[Brinniel]

Brinn, what do you think about being chosen by Agan and Greenie?
Quite honestly, I'm a bit surprised. I wasn't expecting to be voted for at all toDay...though I suppose perhaps that's because I'm so used never getting nominated for anything... Aganzir and Greenie haven't posted much and I can't get a good read on them. Their reasons for voting me seem sensible enough, though I don't know if I would've picked myself. I'm pretty sure Day Ones are my worst Day participation-wise; I always have a low post count on this Day. But I suppose that could be reason to make me a rep...force me to be louder from the beginning. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

It's time for another list. This is to help me decide and let everyone see what I am thinking about my Rep-vote.

Aganzir- I'd like to see more.
Boromir88- Seems okay so far. A good choice.
Brinniel- I'd like to see more.
Diamond18- I'd like to see more.
Eönwë- I'd like to see more.
Gil-Galad- I'd like to see more.
Greenie- I'd like to see more.
Gwathagor- I'd like to see more.
Ilya- Seems okay so far. A good choice.
Legate- I like having him around, but feel I can't trust him yet.
Lommy- Seems okay so far. A good choice.
Kath- I'd like to see more.
McCaber- I'd like to see more.
mormegil- I'd like to see more.
Nerwen- I'd like to see more.
Nogrod- I like having him around, but feel I can't trust him yet.
Rune- I'd like to see more.
Sally- I'm leaning towards Ordo, but I'd like to see more.
Shasta- I like having him around, but feel I can't trust him yet.
The Ka- I'd like to see more.
the phantom- If only I coud vote for him.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

"I'd like to see more."
"I'd like to see more."
"I'd like to see more."

Greedy, greedy, greedy. :p

[Brinniel]

Just to keep track of who is voting for whom:

Aganzir: ++Brinniel (Brinn 1)
Greenie: ++Brinniel (Brinn 2)
Lommy: ++Ilya (Brinn 2, Ilya 1)
Kath: ++Lommy (Brinn 2, Ilya 1, Lommy 1)
Ka: ++Boromir (Brinn 2, Ilya 1, Lommy 1, Boromir 1)
morm: ++Nogrod (Brinn 2, Ilya 1, Lommy 1, Boromir 1, Nogrod 1)
Nogrod: ++Ilya (Brinn 2, Ilya 2, Lommy 1, Boromir 1, Nogrod 1)
Eonwe: ++Greenie (Brinn 2, Ilya 2, Lommy 1, Boromir 1, Nogrod 1, Greenie 1)
Gwath: ++Nogrod (Brinn 2, Ilya 2, Lommy 1, Boromir 1, Nogrod 2, Greenie 1)
Legate: ++phantom (Brinn 2, Ilya 2, Lommy 1, Boromir 1, Nogrod 2, Greenie 1, tp 1)
Shasta: ++Aganzir (Brinn 2, Ilya 2, Lommy 1, Boromir 1, Nogrod 2, Greenie 1, tp 1, Aganzir 1)
Sally: ++Legate (Brinn 2, Ilya 2, Lommy 1, Boromir 1, Nogrod 2, Greenie 1, tp 1, Aganzir 1, Legate 1)
Ilya: ++Boromir (Brinn 2, Ilya 2, Lommy 1, Boromir 2, Nogrod 2, Greenie 1, tp 1, Aganzir 1, Legate 1)

Has not voted: Boromir, Brinn, Di, Gil, McCaber, Nerwen, Rune, tp

With only twenty-five minutes to go. Or are we going by BD time?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

BD time. I thought it would be easiest to use a clock we all share.

[the phantom]

Greedy, greedy, greedy.
Sorry, but I'm trying to be honest here, and with most people I simply need to hear from them more to get a feel for them.

That isn't to say that my gut will lead me any better than a coin flip, but I refuse to hand over my voting power to someone if I have no opinion on them and their motives.
Or are we going by BD time?
I believe.

[Brinniel]

Ooh, that means we have forty-five minutes then. Yeah, looking at the BD clock does make things much easier. :)

Btw, I think I'm going to have to fly to Copenhagen and pummel Rune for not showing up on Day 1. Silly boy. :p

[Gwathagor]

Ah politics. I should pull out my copy of Plato. Or Machiavelli at any rate.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ah politics. I should pull out my copy of Plato. Or Machiavelli at any rate.

WOLF!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

My laptop battery is about to die... :(

[Gwathagor]

WOLF!

Machiavelli?

[Brinniel]

Does anyone find it ironic that I happen to be writing a speech for class arguing against the Electoral College at this very moment? :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

My laptop battery is about to die...
You have a laptop battery? You mean a battery that sits on your lap? What's the purpose of that?

*chuckle*

Anyway, I'm going back to do some reading before I make my Rep selection.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

In case there was confusion, I thought I should point out, just for the sake of it, that there will be no intermission between parts one and two of the Days. Just keep on playing through Deadline, but know that you'll be no longer allowed to vote for Reps and that your choices are in their hands for the rest of the day. Is that clear?

[Brinniel]

Hmm....I should vote soon.

I'm currently torn between choosing Shasta or Aganzir...

[the phantom]

I'm sort of going in circles here.

I only want to nominate someone who has given me something to work with.

But of course those people I can count on to speak up no matter what, so is it possible that I could use my vote to encourage someone else to take action?

But then I'm uneasy giving power to an unknown.

But some of the "knowns" make me slightly uneasy anyway, so are they any better?

Of course if I hand someone that seems trusted even more power, might the WWs fear their future influence and off them during the night? So perhaps I should fake mistrust of those who I truly trust in order to preserve them for the first couple days.

Gah!

I suspect I'm making this more difficult than it is supposed to be.

[the phantom]

Right now in a village of 21, we have eight votes that count. If Brin and I both vote for someone who already has a vote, that'll make it ten.

Less than half. Ugh.

[the phantom]

Legate would be a diplomatic choice as he voted for me.

I think Boro and Nog are thinking along similar lines.

I'd like to see what Ilya does with her power.

*thinking thinking*

[Boromir88]

Right now in a village of 21, we have eight votes that count. If Brin and I both vote for someone who already has a vote, that'll make it ten.
I'm here, and will probably vote for someone with 1 vote as well.

[the phantom]

I'd like to see as few votes wasted as possible, so I'm leaning towards Legate currently since he lacks but one vote.

[Brinniel]

Yikes, I only have a few minutes left...

++Aganzir for rep

Because unlike Shasta, she has one vote and I continue to think we'd be better off with more reps than less.

[the phantom]

*sigh*

Let's get this over with.

++Legate for Rep

[Boromir88]

Looking over those choices...

Have a funny feeling about Lommy, as well as Legate.

Agan I'm not sure how involved she will be.

Greenie won't be as active as the phantom, but I know won't be silent. Also, the phantom has made clear he would still be active in an "advisory" role if need be.

[Boromir88]

++the phantom for rep

[the phantom]

One minute Boro.

Brin- you didn't highlight!

EDIT: nevermind

[Brinniel]

Don't worry, it counts. I fixed it before you even posted. ;)