Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It occurs to me that by hijacking Greenie's post I failed to give a read on Greenie herself - there were things I liked (the Brinniel read) and things I didn't (the Rune/Kitanna discrepancy, which may be an overblown title but it sounds fancy so I'll probably keep using it; the reads on Ka/Eonwe/Inzil/etc) - she's not a direction I'm interested in going today, at least.

The Rune/Kitanna discrepancy is a thing now!

Okay, if I was a man of ideals I would vote Eonwe now. Not much to go on, but I really did not like how he flipped on Legate, and somebody made a point of his list being blant, which I also found valid.

I am however an pragmatic (not opportunist), and I believe Pitch to be innocent. I am torn between G55 and Brinniel, G55 is confusing and gives off both types of vibes, and Brinniel acts suspicious but it might be accidental.

++Brinniel

Edit:Crossed with every one from #244

[Thinlómien]

Let's make this more interesting then

++Galadriel55

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. So, here I have spent the last minutes debating who to vote for if it looks like Kitanna may not be a vote anyone would go for (even though with these numbers still possible), and considering whether voting Brinn would make sense, meanwhile anyway stuff started happen, but also among other things Kitanna posted her analyses. That made me think I might want to reserve my judgment. They looked kinda genuine (like would a Wolf bother with those? Unless exactly, she - even as Wolf - can't keep up with the thread and simply opts for the "safe thing").

Next - Brinn and all. Of the names that came up now, I'd vote for her the most, chiefly because her death could reveal a lot. There have been a number of people speaking about her whose posts may be REALLY interesting to look at in the light of her lynch, especially if she turned out to be Wolf. Namely, first and foremost among them at least as far as I am concerned, Greenie.

Also since other people I'm wary of seem to be kinda circling around not voting Brinn. Such as Eönwë.

Ok blueeeiiiaggh time's running out. Will check and try to make sense and vote.

[Galadriel55]

I pop in for a 2 minute break, and whoa. :eek: So here come the analyses posts. And thanks Kit for a summary on Brin

[Huinesoron]

I would much rather vote for G55 or Pitch over Brinn. Let's try not to split the vote between them, though - I suspect they are both wolves, so I don't especially mind which one gets lynched, as I think either one will tell us a lot about the other.

Yeah; this is why I went with 'if necessary', and why I've held my vote longer than I intended. A wolf/wolf split vote lynching an innocent would be a nightmare!

This Brinn-wagon everyone's talking about is two votes at this point, mine and Pitch's.

Possible terminology difference? I originally used 'Brinn-wagon' to mean the sudden suspicion of her, which came from a lot more people. I've since switched to meaning something like 'the possibly impending lynch because of the above'. I know the actual votes cast are low, don't worry. :)

The tally right now is is 4 Brinn, 3 Pitch, 5 G55. To avoid Brinn being last-minute wagonned, my best shot is to go:

++GALADRIEL55

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ok, out of the options definitely, and for future knowledge

++Brinniel

[Pitchwife]

Eönwë voting Urwen - really?? Isn't that the most throwaway vote you could possibly make, especially when her two posts so far seem to indicate that she's totally out of her depth here?


Greenie on Mac is only slightly less throwaway, as there's actually been suspicion on him.

[Galadriel55]

And whoa, the votes.

Can I just say, Bad idea? I will turn out to be *very* innocent.

[Macalaure]

++Brinniel

Best I can come up with. I know my points kind of came out of nowhere, but I don't know what that's supposed to be "the single most suspicious thing". I'm a bit tight on time near the deadline today.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The tally right now is is 4 Brinn, 3 Pitch, 5 G55. To avoid Brinn being last-minute wagonned, my best shot is to go:

I have a very, very urgent feeling that if I have ever seen a Wolf saving a fellow Wolf from a bandwagon, this might just be it. (Would it be so blatant? But in this big village, I guess every Day counts!)

[Brinniel]

Sorry, G55. I don't really find you that suspicious, but I need to save myself.

++Galadriel55

[Galadriel55]

Sorry, G55. I don't really find you that suspicious, but I need to save myself.
Fair enough, but if I die now there won't be anyone to save you later on.



I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?

[Nogrod]

Day1 - votes


Lhuna -> Lhuna
Rikae -> Brinniel
G55 -> Rikae
Boro -> Pitchwife
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel 2
Kath -> G55 2
Shasta -> Pitchwife 2
Kitanna -> Pitchwife 3
Inzil -> G55 3
Lottie -> G55 4
Greenie -> Macalaure
THE Ka -> Brinniel 3
Eönwë -> Urwen
Rune -> Brinniel 4
Lommy -> G55 5
Huines -> G55 6
Legate -> Brinn 5
Macalaure -> Brinn 6
Brinniel -> G55 7

[Thinlómien]

So Brinn and G55 both at 6, but G55 the one to be a goner so far? With curious last minute posts from several people here! ToMorow will be iiiiiinteresting...

edit: xed with a bunch holy help

[Inziladun]

Fair enough, but if I die now there won't be anyone to save you later on.



I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?

*facepalm*

[Galadriel55]

Not that I would be able to save you now anyways, but at least I would have to be a "wasted" Night kill rather than a lynch, which should be for a wolf.

[Loslote]

Fair enough, but if I die now there won't be anyone to save you later on.



I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?

Oh heck.

[Pitchwife]

And whoa, the votes.

Can I just say, Bad idea? I will turn out to be *very* innocent.
Oh frell.

[Thinlómien]

Hmmm 2 votes for Brinn, anyone?

[Loslote]

Brinn is the only viable option who hasn't claimed to be the Ranger. Vote Brinn if you haven't voted yet. I'm sorry if you're innocent Brinn. :eek:

[Huinesoron]

I have a very, very urgent feeling that if I have ever seen a Wolf saving a fellow Wolf from a bandwagon, this might just be it. (Would it be so blatant? But in this big village, I guess every Day counts!)

What you're seeing is my word use breaking down because I spent ten mi utes trying to get this post typed on my phone and then realised the time. /After/ repeatedly updating the tallies at the end; it was 3/3/4 when I started!

I'm really suspicious of the let's lynch Brinn movement; I think there's a wolf deep inside it. As I said a few posts back, I'd rather have gone Pitch, but voted G55 as far more likely than Brinn.

hS

[Brinniel]

I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?
Sorry to hear that. I think I would look at the bandwagon against both of us toMorrow.

[Inziladun]

Has everyone voted?

[satansaloser2005]

I've been stuck on a call!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[Boromir88]

Uhh :(

[Huinesoron]

Oh heck just saw.

[Kitanna]

I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?
Bwahaha, suuuuure

[satansaloser2005]

Because I can't catch up in time and I'll do anything to save the maybe ranger.

++Brinn

I do not like this at all, but it's the best I can do right now.

[Loslote]

Vote Brinn if you can. Anyone who was here and didn't vote Brinn should be considered very suspicious toMorrow.

[Nogrod]

DEADLINE: PLEASE CEASE ALL POSTING!

All the votes cast with a timestamp of xx:00 are counted, all later votes are disqualified.

A narration will follow as soon as possible, in about half an hour.


ADD: Both Brinn and G55 ended up with 7 votes, but because G55 reached the votes earlier, she will be quarantined.

[Galadriel55]

So is this my last post? Can I just say, it's been an absolute pleasure. :cool:

Edit: sorry, xed with the DL and the mod.

[Nogrod]

Instead of performing immediately some examinations to find out who’s being infected and who’s not, the Villagers got stuck in discussions on how to actually identify those diseased, and what would be general symptoms that could reveal it. But interestingly enough, from there they went on lengths discussing different approaches on how to vote for it (sic!), and even if everyone should keep personal lists of their suspicions to be read out aloud to others. There were even separate discussions on how the quarantined would do in their seclusion and should they be listened to, or whether they should look for other diseases now that they had started to think of health-issues in the first place.

Even if most of the Day went on with people showing a brave face and acting light-heartedly, it was easy to feel the heightening tensions inside everyone’s heart – well, most everyone. And to the dismay of Húrin, there were even a few minor brawls between some of the people. It was not fitting that people would go after each other under his roof.

Especially Andróg's abrasiveness soon started to rub many people the wrong way. In the end it did it so badly, that many people seemed to have forgotten that they were searching for physically sick, not mentally repellent people. But when there in the end was a vote – against Húrin’s and Huor’s wishes who had pledged for unanimity to the end - Andróg was the one looking to get the vote.

As a last straw Andróg pleaded the less powerful of the village to save him for he would protect them against the malice of both Morgoth and the lords. That didn't work, but a wildly protesting Andróg was taken away.

~*~

There were not that many suitable places in the village to hold possibly numerous people in quarantine, as any small hut would not do. Finally, Húrin decided it would be his Hall where the presumed sick would be isolated from others. The healthy people could gather outside or at the barn, but the sick needed the best.

“They will still be our family, kinsmen and friends, for I fear this decision didn't quite save the day for us yet. So let us give them a decent place to suffer the isolation. I do not see any celebrations we’d need the Hall for anyway.”

Thus Andróg was locked inside the hall and the door was bolted.

It seems many people who wanted him there were right about one thing: he didn’t have the best of the Village in mind. Instead he hated everyone and especially wanted the villagers to drown into the disease.


Galadriel55 was Andróg aka. the Cobbler.


Dead, yes dead

Nogrod – “The Badger”, The Mod (dead on Night1)

Quarantined

Galadriel55, Andróg, The Cobbler (voted into QT on Day1)

Hanging around

Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Huinesoron
Loslote
Pitchwife
Kath
Lhunardawen
Inziladun
Kitanna
A Little Green
Boromir88
Urwen
Lalaith
Brinniel
Eönwë
Macalaure
Rikae
Rune Son of Bjarne
THE Ka
Satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin


It’s now Night 2

Nightly folks, do your worse / best. The rest, try to sleep if you can.


NB. The characters of the narrations will follow their personalities and commitments based on the legendarium, not the actions or words of the players in the game whom they are paired with. The game you play just directs their destinies and thus creates the narrative.

[Nogrod]

In the morning the Villagers found the Chieftain of Haladin leaning backwards on the stairs of the Great Hall, staring emptily nowhere in particular, pale and sweating, breathing heavily.

“They came to me at Night…”, Haldir forced himself to speak as he saw his father’s face leaning over him. “They took me by surprise and there were too many of them… they blindfolded me and they bit me… they made cuts in me with knives and… they… they licked the wounds…” His voice failed for a moment. “It was a nightmare…”

“Haldir!” Glóredhel ran forwards from the crowd but fell trembling on her knees.

Hareth tried to wrestle her father away from her brother. “You must stay away from him! Father do you hear me!” With the help of Huor’s strong hands they managed to draw the sobbing old man away from his son and heir.

Back in the crowd Morwen hushed Túrin to go and take little Brandir away: “Just go and don’t let him any near his grandparents, please Túrin! You like Brandir, right? It is for his own good he stays away from there! Be a big boy now, go!”

As both Halmir and Glóredhel had been moved farther away from poor Haldir, and little Túrin did take care of Brandir pulling him away from the circle around his grandfather, Húrin stepped forwards. “These are evil tidings. So it’s not only an Evil Breath spreading – there are some cursed people behind it spreading it on purpose! People strong enough to overpower uncle Haldir together”

There was a moment of total silence. A short warble of a chaffinch felt like mockery in their ears. A voice from another world.

“Let’s pull him in to the Hall, but be careful!” Húrin added, looking to his household staff. Looking then around the crowd he added sternly: “We’ll do it”. With that also blind Ragnir nodded. He knew his masters call.

“No, no, godchild…” Haldir murmured under heavy breath. “Don’t you anyone risk yourselves. Your destinies lie higher than withering away in this little village.” He managed a thin smile, even if it wasn’t exactly reassuring, if that was what it was meant to be. “I can creep or crawl in… if you just open the door.” With that he started slowly turning around trying to get on all fours.

Húrin hesitated, but then nodded to his servants, and Sador hurried to open the heavy door to the Hall.

The people watched silently by as Haldir crawled slowly up the few stairs hissing and puffing, clearly in great pain and looking far too weak to make it – but still he did it.

There were tears of compassion in everyone’s eyes when Sador finally closed the door after Haldir had disappeared inside.

It took some time for Húrin to gather himself, but in the end he managed to steady his voice: “Come, eat and drink in the barn to strengthen yourselves. We have a long Day ahead of us.”


~*~

Dead, yes dead

Nogrod – “The Badger”, the Mod (dead on Night1)

Quarantined

Galadriel 55 – Andróg, the Cobbler (voted into QT on Day1)
Rikae – Haldir, formerly healthy person (infected by the shady Infectors on Night2)

Hanging around

Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Huinesoron
Loslote
Pitchwife
Kath
Lhunardawen
Inziladun
Kitanna
A Little Green
Boromir88
Urwen
Lalaith
Brinniel
Eönwë
Macalaure
Rune Son of Bjarne
THE Ka
Satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin


It is now Day2.

The word is free.

[satansaloser2005]

Well, at least neither of them were the ranger.

Sigh. Now to examine the mess from yesterDay.

[Loslote]

That was some Day 1! :eek: I'm glad now that we weren't able to swing the vote, but I do think it's worth looking at those late votes. I know Shasta guessed that G55 was a cobbler, and Infectors might've guessed too, but they didn't know either, and I'm sure they wouldn't have rushed to save someone who claimed to be the Ranger if they had any plausible deniability...

[Loslote]

As a quick reference...

Lhuna -> Lhuna
Rikae -> Brinniel
G55 -> Rikae
Boro -> Pitchwife
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel (2)
Kath -> G55 (2)
Shasta -> Pitchwife (2)
Kitanna -> Pitchwife (3)
Inzil -> G55 (3)
Lottie -> G55 (4)
Greenie -> Macalaure
THE Ka -> Brinniel (3)
Eönwë -> Urwen
Rune -> Brinniel (4)
Lommy -> G55 (5)
Huines -> G55 (6)
Legate -> Brinn (5)
Macalaure -> Brinn (6)
Brinniel -> G55 (7)
Sally -> Brinn (7) (after "ranger reveal")

[Inziladun]

That was some Day 1! :eek: I'm glad now that we weren't able to swing the vote, but I do think it's worth looking at those late votes. I know Shasta guessed that G55 was a cobbler, and Infectors might've guessed too, but they didn't know either, and I'm sure they wouldn't have rushed to save someone who claimed to be the Ranger if they had any plausible deniability...

Rikae was the first vote on Brinn, and it must be significant that the wolves went after her. It's far too early for them to have been simply wanting to frame someone.

[Loslote]

Rikae was the first vote on Brinn, and it must be significant that the wolves went after her. It's far too early for them to have been simply wanting to frame someone.

After Rikae? My guess is, the wolves thought Rikae looked so innocent after the G55 fight - it's doubtful the cobbler went full tilt after someone they thought could be a wolf - that she wouldn't provide much cover for them. Semi-known innocents can be really powerful, after all.

[Huinesoron]

Alas, poor Rikae. Please think nice thoughts at us from the Quarantine Thread! (With G55... yikes.) I... honestly can't remember who they interacted with, other than the Cobbler, but hopefully someone can turn up a lead there.

I spent... must have been two, three hours during the Night (totally not when I was meant to be working, ahem) combing through Day 1 to try and sort out what the G55 Cobbler reveal... uh, revealed. Obviously Rikae is right there in the middle of the timeline, but I think I mostly looked at the implications for other people, so it will hopefully still be helpful. Once again I have to get to bed, so I'll try for another overview of The Day So Far when I get back.

---

Wow! That was quite a rollercoaster ride. I definitely didn't see Cobbleradriel (Cobbler55?) coming; I think that's because my wolf-lean was initially based on her as part of a Pitch-G55 pack, which doesn't make much sense for a Cobbler.

Now that we know what she was, I want to go back and reread her part in all the events of yesterDay. I'm thinking of the whole GLP thing, and her attacks on Rikae; then I want to look at the Brinn-wagon, and the Cobbler55 lynch, because who moved when on those should be instructive. Since I once again have to leave just after Deadline, I'm writing this overNight, so end of Night/early posts might obsolete some of it.

The GLP (Down to page 2)

It seems pretty clear G55 brought up the no-vote/fake-vote idea specifically to derail the day. But [b]Legate picking it up and running with it can't have been part of the plan (unless she knows him really well), which still inclines me against suspecting him. Pitch, though… I'm still not convinced by his switch of the blame for the idea from G55 to Legate. I'm not going to impart PitchWolf with supernatural Cobbler-spotting talents, but as I think I said yesterday, he could have been trying to move the focus specifically onto Legate, not off G55.

Looking back, it's striking how much time G55 spends derailing the discussion. On page 2, she wanders off onto QT tactics, potential roles we didn't use, a 'pretend therapy session'... nothing really got traction other than the fake-votes.

The Rikae attack

(Post-Night edit: doesn't look like I considered Rikae so much as how people talked about the fight, so most of this should. Still stand.)

This starts around #127 (G55)/#128 (where Rikae very calmly explains that they just made a mistake). G55 is quite clearly stirring by #137 (which starts with 'Fight! Fight!', and includes her ignoring that Rikae has already explained twice). But… nobody seems to jump onto either side of the fight. Lottie and Ka both say mild things about Rikae not being suspicious, but not attacking G55. Lommy actually IDs G55 as a possible cobbler, but doesn't mention the brewing fight.

Then we hit #147, where G55 opens a full broadside on Rikae. Lottie comes back with suspicions of G55's motives, but not obviously pro-Rikae (and as she says, "I honestly don't really see the motivation for a [G55] ordo to devote this much energy towards a suspicion that isn't really built on much of anything".

#163: Pitch suspects Rikae (for suspecting him), but then 'paradoxically' flips and says both they and G55 sound innocent. If PitchWolf did suspect G55 as cobbler (by this point, Lommy had already suggested it, so the idea was out there), then trying to calm the argument and swing opinion against Rikae would be a clever move.

Greenie then comments on the argument, and is anti Chaotic G55. Doesn't read particularly wolfish. Then Mac comes in and says he doesn't know how it all blew up… well, we know that now! Like others, he seems more focussed on calming things down than pinning blame on either of them. Greenie again comes in and sees G55 as a wolf or frustrated ordo… and then, by #195, as Shasta says, the argument has played itself out.

The fact that so few people commented on it as it was ongoing surprises me - it felt like such a big thing! But it was mostly just a vocal Cobbler doing her best to incite a flame war.

Okay, that's it for the direct Cobbler55 stuff; on to the lynch.

The Brinn-wagon

As I said yesterDay, I didn't know where this came from, and didn't trust it one bit. Let's see if that changes:

(Note: because this got so incredibly long, I'm going to set it in a quote-box. I'll put my takeaways underneath for people who don't want to scour the whole post every time they look back at the start of the Day.)

#73 is the first stirrings: Eonwe says he's not sure whether [b]Brinn trusting Ka and Lommy makes him less likely to trust them. He doesn't really support this in any way. In #77, I (hi, me!) say that Brinn looks slightly dodgy for not saying much of substance; I think that's pretty much true down to her #70, which unfortunately was in the parts I didn't read closely.

#88: Legate takes the 'no-content Brinn' concept and rolls with it, kind of like he did with G55's fake-votes idea. He does go on to say that he's also not including her later posts, eg #70. In fact there's a lot of people (I saw Boro and Lhuna) whose opinion of her comes down to 'not saying much, that's suspicious'.

#112: Pitch comes in with a post that's mostly anti-Brinn, but in a plausibly-deniable way - 'this looks bad, but would a baddie do it? This looks good, but is it meant to?'. Didn't someone talk about 'questions to the reader' somewhere in the thread? There were enough recent 'hmm, Brinn looks worryingly quiet' comments that PitchWolf could definitely be taking advantage of them.

… okay, breaking the flow for a moment, but this is exactly the same technique he used in #163, that time on Rikae. 'They're suspicious, except they aren't, but what if they are?'. I don't like this one bit.

Over on page 4, Rikae suspects Brinn of opportunistically attacking G55 - which I think Pitch was the first to bring up. And… right, #136 is Brinn's 'I don't want to get caught in a trap' post, which I remember came up a lot later.

G55 echoes the earlier comments on 'quiet Brinn is suspicious', which is definitely her trying to build on the momentum that's already there. Next post, Rikae one-word calls out the 'trap' post. Then Lommy (#144) somehow manages to say 'Eonwe and Brinn are acting nearly identically; Brinn's definitely the sketchy one' with a straight face. I think I already noticed this post yesterday, but paired with Eonwe being the first person to suspect Brinn even slightly, it makes me wonder whether there's a pair of wolves signalling at each other.

G55 pushes the wagon a little in #147, and Rikae pops back up to talk about the 'trap' post. I think their explanation (in #148) does actually hold up as a reason for suspecting Brinn - but by this time, multiple people (G55 of course, but Pitch, Legate, and Lommy too) have implicated Brinn for reasons that have nothing to do with this post. This definitely isn't the cause of the Brinn-wagon, though it might have contributed to its prominence; we'll see.

Eonwe pops up with a repeat of his earlier 'I don't know, so I don't trust her' opinion. If he's a wolf, this could be laying the ground for climbing up on the wagon and being able to point back and say 'I was there all along!'.

On page 5, mentions of Brinn pop from 16 to 39; this is where the wagon really takes off. We start with Rikae and Pitch restating their suspicions, and Rikae providing the first actual vote, and then Greenie picks up the 'trap' thing. Then Pitch in #171 comes up with a whole new set of just-asking-questions for Brinn, which Lottie picks up (but somewhat less firmly; by #182 she has her as 'keep an eye on', not a suspect).

#194: THE Ka finds yet another reason to suspect Brinn: she's not making firm accusations. Mac echoes this, and calls her out for not worrying about people suspecting her. I've always had the impression that The Villager Doth Protest Too Much is pretty wolfish, so I don't much like this argument.

On to page 6 and the final hour: 78 mentions! Lommy thinks she might be innocent, Zil wants to talk about the trap (even though this has been discussed a bit), Greenie distrusts both Brinn, and Mac for accusing Brinn, Lottie would vote Brinn - and then Pitch does, with what I think is yet another reason.

I know I sound a bit like a cracked record, but this looks like a 'safe' Wolf bandwagon. He's only the second vote, so he can't be bandwagonning - except that there's been loads of people saying they mistrust Brinn, two posts ago someone stated intention to vote that way, and one post ago Brinn herself talked about how she's on the block. It would have taken a major twist for a hefty Brinn vote not to manifest, and I think Pitchwolf spotted that.

Shasta talks about waiting to see what happens - at 50 minutes to DL. Lottie starts talking about lynching Brinn to find out her role, and I think I remember her saying the same thing about G55; maybe on a quieter Day 1 this would be valid, but there's been so much relationship-drama that a 'lynch for role info' strategy looks pretty suspect to me.

#220: Kitanna makes a huge post about Brinn, coming down on the side of 'innocent/cobbler'. The fact that a thorough reread gives this sort of impression is exactly why I'm suspicious of the wagon - most of the reasons people have given for suspecting her just don't hold up under scrutiny. Rune follows this post with a very similar one, but too close to be trying to ride Kitanna's coattails.

39 minutes to DL, and Legate is still waiting for more information. I'm not going to argue with 'I don't know' (there are some valid arguments around), but this is an odd way of putting it.

Over to page 7 and the final 20 minutes. THE Ka votes Brinn (with no new reasons), Rikae defends the wagon, Lommy thinks Brinn could be anything but the cobbler (well, she's previously leaned both guilty and innocent on her, so this is consistent). Rune votes Brinn. Legate discusses 'lynching for information', like Lottie did, and then votes for her over G55. Mac votes Brinn based on… I can't even find his post in what I've written, but I remember it was there. And then G55 claims Ranger, and it's all over but the quarantining.

What jumped out to me from that? I think Pitchwife is as suspicious as all get-out, for when and how he voiced his suspicions and placed his vote. Lommy flipflops (sorry, considers both sides). Both Legate and Lottie talk about lynching Brinn for information, which I don't much like on a Day 1 this busy. And if Eonwe is a wolf who masterminded the wagon and then didn't even need to climb on it (switching to a vote-the-absentee strategy on Urwen), then he pulled it off with masterful skill.

The G55 Lynch

Since we all know what she was up to, hopefully this will be a bit shorter!

-Urwen: voted out of stated spite.
-Kath: over her passing the blame to Legate on the fake-votes, and the fight with Rikae.
-Inzil: For information (on Legate, Pitch, and Rikae) and because there's no-one else on the block he wants to lynch.
-Lottie: Lynching for information (on Pitch, I believe) and because she thinks she's a wolf.
-Lommy: voted 'to make this interesting' (by keeping G55 at +1 over Brinn, I think)
-Huinesoron: suspected Pitch-G55 pair, voted for the one who was on the block and to break the Brinn-wagon.
-Brinn: Explicit self-protection.

Conclusions? Well, obviously I think the arguments against G55 are stronger (to say the least) than those against Brinn. They were also broadly agreed on, particularly the idea that something was up in the GLP, whereas the only agreement in the Brinn voters seems to have been 'she's quiet… too quiet', with other reasons added on at will to justify that unease.

The one that jumps out on this lynch list is once again Lommy. I would dearly love to know what 'make this more interesting' meant, because to my mind, voting for one of the top two suspects (and the one who already had the most votes up to a minute before) is the opposite of 'making it interesting'.

---

Just checking for cross-posts... looks like Zil is linking Rikae's death to the Brinn-wagon. Hope there's something in here you can use!

hS

[Inziladun]

After Rikae? My guess is, the wolves thought Rikae looked so innocent after the G55 fight - it's doubtful the cobbler went full tilt after someone they thought could be a wolf - that she wouldn't provide much cover for them. Semi-known innocents can be really powerful, after all.

I thought she looked dodgy at the end of yesterDay. After so heavily going after G55, she failed to vote that way. I wondered if a Rikae-wolf hadn't started picking up the Cobblerishness.

x/d with Huey

[Brinniel]

YesterDay was certainly interesting. G55 didn't stay alive long, but she certainly helped cause some chaos. And now Rikae is stuck with her! :eek:

Just a thought about the QT vote - there are now two players in that thread and one is a cobbler. It's highly unlikely G55 will cooperate with Rikae and I believe if I'm right, in the case of a tie, G55 swings the vote. So while she may not know who the wolves are, we will all have to take that vote with a grain of salt.

I will need to review the voting from yesterDay. Some of that last minute bandwaggoning was highly suspicious - especially knowing that G55 and me are not wolves. With five of them, I am certain there are at least a couple hiding in those bandwagons, though I also don't think all of them were involved.

I will actually have some decent amount of time later this evening to actually go through posts and analyze things. As I mentioned before, due to my work schedule, my participation at the later half of the Day is limited to short posts, so I will try to make the most of the time I have tonight.

X-ed posted since #286

[Inziladun]

Fair enough, but if I die now there won't be anyone to save you later on.



I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?

Bwahaha, suuuuure

Very curious about this.

x/d with Brinn

[Boromir88]

A lot to unpack, but that could have gone much worse than how it turned out. First thought is it must be a cruel wolf pack to put G55 and Rikae together in the QT after their arguments yesterday.

2nd thought is there wasn't a whole lot of talk about how the QT voting will turn out. With the cobbler being there and holding the tiebreaker, we can't trust the QT vote at all today. It's going to be another nerve-wracking DL.

Getting something to eat, will return with a look at the Brinn votes yesterday, and Rikae's last post warning about a possible "anti-Brinn wagon"

Rikae Post 245
So, just putting this here because I think this could be important later. This Brinn-wagon everyone's talking about is two votes at this point, mine and Pitch's.

And the people who expressed concern about it are Huey, Lottie and Inzil, in that order (let me know if I missed someone).

Now, I found Pitch suspicious from the beginning, although just for vibes really, and Brinn could have started looking like a convenient vote. On the other hand, three people pushing back on a wagon for coming out of nowhere after two reasoned votes (by day 1 standards) is odd, too, especially if Brinn turns out wolfish or the trolley is redirected toward an innocent. Lottie's and Inzil's positions in the anti-Brinnwagon-wagon are, that is - Huey's is pretty bold.

Edit: crossed with everyon since Inzil's #287

[Loslote]

So Lalaith was the only person who didn't vote, and she only posted twice, the last one about six hours before deadline. We can probably assume she wasn't around at the deadline. Sally was the only person around at the deadline, and she did vote to save the "Ranger", which doesn't prove her innocence - a Sallywolf might have simply thought she had no choice but to vote in that situation - but I would say doesn't look especially suspicious. So it looks like that line of questioning might not be the most fruitful.

I am a little bit side-eyeing the late (but before the "reveal") Brinn voters. If you were a wolf, you'd probably rather keep the loud, distracting player who is haring after someone not in your pack than keep the quieter player who isn't going to help you hide as much. Specifically, Mac, Legate, and Rune.

Greenie mentioned yesterDay that Mac's analysis post of Brinn reads like someone talking themselves into suspecting someone else, which most often happens when a wolf is looking for a reason to suspect an innocent. So I definitely don't trust him at this point.

I think it's very interesting that Legate really didn't seem interested at all in the G55-Pitch options at the deadline yesterDay. In his last post before voting, he throws out Brinn, Kit, and Greenie as options, and then votes the only viable candidate there, but doesn't really talk about the other choices at all. It's not a huge thing, but it does kind of ping my radar as something a wolf might do if he wants to steer the vote a little bit, but doesn't want to look suspicious and isn't as invested as he would be if a wolf were actually in danger.

Finally, Rune's vote post:

Okay, if I was a man of ideals I would vote Eonwe now. Not much to go on, but I really did not like how he flipped on Legate, and somebody made a point of his list being blant, which I also found valid.

I am however an pragmatic (not opportunist), and I believe Pitch to be innocent. I am torn between G55 and Brinniel, G55 is confusing and gives off both types of vibes, and Brinniel acts suspicious but it might be accidental.

I consider this to be the least suspicious of the three, but I do have to note that the same argument I made for Legate could easily apply here. Rune is torn between two options, and ultimately chooses Brinn. Could be innocent, could be a wolf picking the best option for him (the player who isn't serving as a very loud distraction) and not really bothered too much by trying to protect a packmate. (I would like to point out here that when I say not trying to protect a packmate, I'm not ruling out the possibility of a Pitchwolf - I think by that point momentum had swung away from him and he probably wasn't in too much danger. This would of course rule out the possibility of Brinn being packmates with either Mac, Legate or Rune.)

[Pitchwife]

Oh I'd so love to be a fly on the wall of the QT now.

That was some Day 1! :eek: I'm glad now that we weren't able to swing the vote, but I do think it's worth looking at those late votes.
Unfortunately I think the only vote coming after G55's fake reveal was sally's, who voted the only way she could responsibly do at this point, so I'm not sure what is to be gleaned from the late votes.:(

Rikae was thought innocent by most of the people who talked about them (except for Andrógiel55), which may be why they were killed. Also this may implicate Brinn, except isn't that almost too obvious?


If Brinn is a wolf, I could see at least some of her packmates turning to G55 as a convenient lightning rod (which is one of the purposes of a cobbler IMO).


It's far too early for them to have been simply wanting to frame someone.
I don't know that it's ever too early for wolves to frame someone, especially if you can get rid of a dangerous player at the same time.


(x-ed since 288)

[Inziladun]

On another note, Steve's vote was odd, to say the least. It's natural to have been frustrated by Urwen's lack of reasoning (I was), but there was no chance she would be lynched.

[Inziladun]

I don't know that it's ever too early for wolves to frame someone, especially if you can get rid of a dangerous player at the same time.

Well, sure. But in this case I think there were better options.

[Thinlómien]

asdfghjklölkjhgfghjkllkjhgfghjk

^my summary of yesterDay

But hey, quite a nice result after all! When I first saw Gal's reveal I was like "I can't deal with this right now", then I thought "but I gotta, and I gotta give her the benefit of doubt", then I fervently wished there would be enough votes to lynch Brinn instead but turns out it was okay this way. And in hindsight, it makes sense.

But I already see people talking as if the bandwagon against Brinn is a sign of her innocence? No??? If the wolves were trying to orchestrate an innocent lynch yesterDay, it could have just as well been Gal, who they also knew wasn't one of them.

As for Rikae - I guess she just seemed overall defensive and her touchy reactions to being accused by Gal could have been interpreted as signs iof giftednes? But it'd be worth it to look at her posts to look at "seer dreams" the wolves may have caught on.

Ok, that was first thoughts. Now I will actually read what you guys have said so far toDay and comment on that...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I imagine we will spend this day 2 scrutinising voting patterns, at least I see little in G55 behavior to warrant significant analysis. Besides the big bust up with Rikae, she seems to have mainly thrown a few non-committal comments about.

She turned on Legate when he picked up on her idea, had a little banter with Lommy about day 1 tactics, discussed the merits of cobbler hunting with Kath and challenged Brinniel for suspecting her. Wasn't that about it?

Rikae seems like an obvious choice, having been in a public spat with a traitor and under all circumstances a capacity they would not want around, so we seem to have unadventurous and downright boring wolves.

I didn't look to closely on Rikae's post yesterday, but they seem to warrant a bit closer scrutiny.

[satansaloser2005]

As for Rikae - I guess she just seemed overall defensive and her touchy reactions to being accused by Gal could have been interpreted as signs iof giftednes? But it'd be worth it to look at her posts to look at "seer dreams" the wolves may have caught on.

That's what I assumed as well. I saw Rikae as a defensive wolf during the Night, but obviously I was wrong, so I suspect the wolves saw Rikae as a defensive gifted. After all, Rikae's temper tends to be more fiery when given a special role.

Didn't vote yesterDay: Lal. I wonder if she knows the game has started. :eek:

Weird votes yesterDay (Gal notwithstanding): Steve. What the frell? Also Green, which was another throwaway and strikes me as odd.

[Loslote]

But I already see people talking as if the bandwagon against Brinn is a sign of her innocence? No??? If the wolves were trying to orchestrate an innocent lynch yesterDay, it could have just as well been Gal, who they also knew wasn't one of them.

I don't think Brinn's innocence is proven by any means, but I do think that the vote patterns look (to me at least) very much like wolves choosing between two "innocents". I also think that the wolves would probably have rather lynched Brinn over G55, assuming neither was a packmate. I don't think they were trying to "orchestrate an innocent lynch" - I think, based on the overall tone of the late voters, that it came down to two options, neither of whom was a wolf. No one felt like a wolf nervously trying to avoid lynching a packmate without overtly defending them, or anything like that.

[Pitchwife]

It's highly unlikely G55 will cooperate with Rikae and I believe if I'm right, in the case of a tie, G55 swings the vote.
Nope. Right now that would be Rikae, as the last to die.


#163: Pitch suspects Rikae (for suspecting him), but then 'paradoxically' flips and says both she and G55 sound innocent.
This, I feel, is a distorting abbreviation of what I actually said. I said that there was probably a wolf among those suspecting me (i.e. Rikae, Brinn, Kit & Lottie), but didn't suspect Rikae specifically (rather the contrary). The paradox was I was getting non-wolvish vibes from both of them. I admit my post was pretty condensed, but was I so unclear or are you deliberately misreading me?


Also, Zil has just made me raise a big eyebrow in his general direction. *ping* (No, Mac, I'm not going to stop it!)

[Macalaure]

Ok then. Obviously Gala considered Rikae to be innocent. In fact, by the fairly spirited way she went after them, she likely thought they were not just innocent, but gifted. What set her off against them was an error in a comment about me. Maybe she thought Rikae was the seer, dreamt of wolf-me (No, I’m not a wolf, but she Gala doesn’t know that) and tried to get me lynched by exaggerating what little could be found that early into Day1? Now Rikae is dead. Did the wolves follow Gala’s judgement and thought them gifted? I don't see it, unless maaybe if Brinn is indeed a wolf and the way Rikae suspected her set them off. Not gonna put too many eggs into that basket, though.

Why Rikae then, just because after yesterDay they'd look the most innocent of all toDay and thus least likely to be lynched? Possibly, but if so, our wolf pack is boring. :p

Unless... I'm being framed. By the exact thinking above, a mewolf would have reason to think Rikae really is the seer. If the wolves are preparing my head for the chopping block, I have to raise my eyebrow at those who suddenly suspected me near the deadline, since this would very much play into their hands/paws. *coughgreeniecough*

*tinfoilhatting intensifies* :smokin:


And while I'm already being paranoid...
His response does seem like a natural response when a player comes under fire like he did. Not to say I absolve him, but it doesn't strike me as overly wolfy behavior.
In the whole Legate, G55, and Pitch discussion I'd wager there's a wolf hidden, setting up two innocents to take the bait. Yet each time I read back, I switch who I think is most likely the wolf.
I thought Legate might be the innocent party until post #88
Something about the whole post feels, I don't know, contrived? I can't place my finger on it. Like G55 it feels like he's distancing himself from the fake DL, fake vote discussion.
I'm finding it hard to explain why this sets me off, but I'm going to try in the most coherent way.
Legate drew a lot of attention, but I didn't really feel many were overly suspicious of him. There's been some talk, but nothing to indicate everyone is convinced and ready to bandwagon. I'd say more people raised eyebrows toward G55 and Pitch, myself included, because of how G55 distanced herself from her idea and how Pitch threw it all into Legate's lap. In all that, Legate did look like a misguided, attempting to be helpful innocent. But maybe that's how he wants to be viewed? He's been helpful, at least, in stirring up conversation. And yet, his list post of his thoughts in #88 just rings of false platitudes and him trying to put himself under the radar again. He came, he made a lot of noise, and now just there with a list.This would look perfect if Kitanna and Legate are wolves together. She’s suspicious of him and defending him at the same time. It’s easy to say that there’s a wolf in that group if you know that there is. Note how in conclusion, she finds Gala and Pitch more suspicious than Legate. Can't suspect a fellow wolf too much.

Legate is suspicious of Kitanna in turn, but then:
Kitanna*- I have listed it above. Upon re-read, I sense the danger of having focussed too much on it to the point of solidifying my suspicion for myself, but the points stand.Throwing suspicion at a fellow wolf while in the same breath excusing not to vote for them.



Finally, in response to Greenie, now that I have time to respond properlyThis actually isn’t how I read that at all.(This is in response to a point of mine against Huin.) Me neither, necessarily. But it’s a plausible wolf tactic to say someone looks innocent while at the same time inviting others to make their case for guilt.

I'm not sure I can stay awake until DL but Mac's post just made me rethink everything to the extent that my brain hurts. I still think Brinn looks sketchy, and I agree with Mac's points about her, but at the same time Mac's post about her makes me really uneasy. (Flip-flopping? Goes in the family, I'm afraid.) He literally starts with "I don't know who to vote for", then makes a reasonable argument against Brinn (quoted above), then quotes another bit from Brinn saying he wished he had noticed this earlier as her wording is "wolfie". This is literally like a wolf thought process written out in one post. I need someone to suspect -> come up with an argument against someone -> find "wolfie" things in that person's previous posts. The only other people he mentions in this post are ones he is okay with. So if the only one he voices suspicion of is Brinn, how come he "doesn't know who to vote for"?I started that post not knowing who to vote for and listed all the ones that I did not wish to vote for. I was going to end the post with something along the lines of "I'm going to skim over the posts of the ones not listed to see if anything jumps out." As I previewed my post I saw Brinn's post. I looked back at her older posts and found more fishy-ish things that I had missed before. Enough to make me suspicious enough to vote.



PS: Huin... I now have Cobbler55 stuck in my head to the tune of Mambo No.5. Why did you do this to me?? :eek:

[Inziladun]

That's what I assumed as well. I saw Rikae as a defensive wolf during the Night, but obviously I was wrong, so I suspect the wolves saw Rikae as a defensive gifted. After all, Rikae's temper tends to be more fiery when given a special role.

Maybe. Hers was the first vote on Brinn, and then she got a little scratchy with those of us avoiding that wagon. That could point toward a Brinnwolf, but it could also lead back to the idea of a frameup.

Didn't vote yesterDay: Lal. I wonder if she knows the game has started. :eek

Well, she did post.

x/d with all since #301

[Macalaure]

Greenie mentioned yesterDay that Mac's analysis post of Brinn reads like someone talking themselves into suspecting someone else, which most often happens when a wolf is looking for a reason to suspect an innocent. So I definitely don't trust him at this point.Except wolves know all day that they have to make up the reasoning for a vote for an innocent and can plan for it accordingly.

[Pitchwife]

Folks, can we please refer to Rikae as they/them/their? Thank you.

[Inziladun]

Nope. Right now that would be Rikae, as the last to die.

Sure of that? I thought those lynched carried seniority over Night-kills.

[Boromir88]

On another note, Steve's vote was odd, to say the least. It's natural to have been frustrated by Urwen's lack of reasoning (I was), but there was no chance she would be lynched.

Agreed it's a terribly bad throw away vote sure.

But had I been able to and not already voted, when I read Steve's vote I thought I would be very tempted to do the same thing. I thought Urwen's vote was unsporty and even though G55 turned out cobbler, I had same exact reaction as Steve's. Looked like Urwen had no interest in being helpful.

If G55 turned out Ranger, I would be feeling a lot different about Steve's throw away.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Since I just saw this, I'll post this immediately before my long, actual post is complete:


It's highly unlikely G55 will cooperate with Rikae and I believe if I'm right, in the case of a tie, G55 swings the vote.
Nope. Right now that would be Rikae, as the last to die.Nope. Right now that would be Rikae, as the last to die.

No, it isn't:

- If there is a tie of votes in the Quarantine Thread, the one who has been quarantined the latest - and has voted for one of the tied candidates - has the final say (aka. her vote counts practically as two). NB. A Nightly infected person is not counted as the "most recently quarantined" unless the tie can not be solved following this rule (in case of which it counts).

It is kinda confusing, but I think it essentially (except for some random exceptions) means "only people lynched will ever be the tiebreakers".

Which would basically mean that yes, we will have a Cobbler vote from the QT toDay. And if we get a Wolf toDay, it won't get any better (but it will still be the best we can do).

In that sense, lynching Cobbler on Day 1 was a really unfortunate thing, but on the other hand, it would have probably come up some Day anyway - and in that sense, it's better if it happened early rather than later when her decisive vote could be more harmful. (She can still team up with WWs, but that's a different issue and depends wholly on the specific circumstances in those future moments.)

The worse part is that it makes any close voting toDay a bit more of a mess, but at least we will know who QT voted for two hours before. So they can't mess up the final voting. Imagine if they had the vote revealed only afterwards, as was once suggested!

Ok, but now back to my... erm, longer (?) post. Will post shortly.

EDIT: x-ed since the post I'm quoting. In the name of all how much are people posting?!?!?!

[Pitchwife]

Meh, I got that wrong then.


I need to go to bed now, having a vet appointment in the morning. See yous.

[Pitchwife]

But had I been able to and not already voted, when I read Steve's vote I thought I would be very tempted to do the same thing. I thought Urwen's vote was unsporty and even though G55 turned out cobbler, I had same exact reaction as Steve's. Looked like Urwen had no interest in being helpful.
I'll be coming back to this.

[Thinlómien]

Re: Hui's summary of G55 - when you put it all together it's pretty obvious how much distraction and havoc she caused, and how fun it must have been for her. (Gotta be a little envious; cobbler is maybe my fave role...) Well played *waves to the qt thread* but I'm glad we got you out of the way this early. :p

Lommy flipflops (sorry, considers both sides):D

The one that jumps out on this lynch list is once again Lommy. I would dearly love to know what 'make this more interesting' meant, because to my mind, voting for one of the top two suspects (and the one who already had the most votes up to a minute before) is the opposite of 'making it interesting'.Of the people who were "on the table" when I voted, I thought Pitchwife looked the most innocent, but I didn't have much of a preference as for Gal vs Brinn. I suspected both of them a little, but neither was my top suspect. (Gal looked maybe more suspicious to me than Brinn, but more likely of the two to turn out to be a mere cobbler if evil.) Since the last few votes (looking at the tally, I think Rune and Ka's for Brinn), it clarified the overall situation to me that it's likely to be Gal vs Brinn in the end and I was okay with either. So I thought I might as well cast my vote then (and not later) and decided to vote Gal whose bandwagon seemed to me to have less momentum. What I meant by "let's make this more interesting" was "let's see if anyone rushes to save Gal, or joins the bandwagon after me to save Brinn". Adding a new vote candidate 15min before the dl when 2/3 of the village had already voted would have been the opposite of making it interesting...

2nd thought is there wasn't a whole lot of talk about how the QT voting will turn out. With the cobbler being there and holding the tiebreaker, we can't trust the QT vote at all today. It's going to be another nerve-wracking DL.Sheesh, it's just our cobbler having one vote, just like she did yesterDay, with the difference that we know it's the cobbler's vote and we don't need to discuss its merits.

Obviously Gala considered Rikae to be innocent. In fact, by the fairly spirited way she went after them, she likely thought they were not just innocent, but gifted. What set her off against them was an error in a comment about me. Maybe she thought Rikae was the seer, dreamt of wolf-me (No, I’m not a wolf, but she Gala doesn’t know that) and tried to get me lynched by exaggerating what little could be found that early into Day1? Now Rikae is dead. Did the wolves follow Gala’s judgement and thought them gifted? I don't see it, unless maaybe if Brinn is indeed a wolf and the way Rikae suspected her set them off. Not gonna put too many eggs into that basket, though.What the. This doesn't sound like innocent logic at all! Like how does it even cross your mind to base your theory on Rikae being thought a seer who dreamed of wolf!you when you're not a wolf?

But given that this follows with
Unless... I'm being framed. By the exact thinking above, a mewolf would have reason to think Rikae really is the seer. If the wolves are preparing my head for the chopping block, I have to raise my eyebrow at those who suddenly suspected me near the deadline, since this would very much play into their hands/paws. *coughgreeniecough*if you're a wolf you're either very bold or already lost your hope of appearing innocent in light of the Rikae kill and trying to make the most of it by pointing stuff out before anyone else can? If the cobbler wasn't already dead, I'd be side-eyeing Mac pretty hard right now. I mean I am, but that explanation would at least make sense...

Folks, can we please refer to Rikae as they/them/their? Thank you. :o oops I did that yesterDay but not toDay, I'm so sorry Rikae!

But had I been able to and not already voted, when I read Steve's vote I thought I would be very tempted to do the same thing. I thought Urwen's vote was unsporty and even though G55 turned out cobbler, I had same exact reaction as Steve's. Looked like Urwen had no interest in being helpful.Agreed. It would have been a decent Day1 lynch, but it was brought on the table all too late, and all too off-handedly - which I agree was a very safe move from Eönwë if he just wanted to keep his hands clean.

[Loslote]

Except wolves know all day that they have to make up the reasoning for a vote for an innocent and can plan for it accordingly.

Right, but they also know that they have to make something up. In my experience, wolves will often have more of a "yeah, hey, you know what, this'll work, I suspect them!" tone than innocents will - and I do think your post about Brinn had a bit of that tone to it.

[Loslote]

Agreed. It would have been a decent Day1 lynch, but it was brought on the table all too late, and all too off-handedly - which I agree was a very safe move from Eönwë if he just wanted to keep his hands clean.

It was a very safe move, that kept his hands very clean - but also, really didn't seem motivated by wolf hunting. If Urwen was a baby wolf, I might expect that she would've tried harder to be involved. I definitely understand his point of view - this game means a lot to a lot of us, and I understand the temptation to lynch someone to whom it doesn't mean as much. But in terms of wolf hunting, it wasn't really a strong argument.

[Inziladun]

It was a very safe move, that kept his hands very clean - but also, really didn't seem motivated by wolf hunting. If Urwen was a baby wolf, I might expect that she would've tried harder to be involved. I definitely understand his point of view - this game means a lot to a lot of us, and I understand the temptation to lynch someone to whom it doesn't mean as much. But in terms of wolf hunting, it wasn't really a strong argument.

Right. I approve of what he did in spirit, but it was unhelpful.
You might expect an Urwolf to have gotten some pointers from her mates.

[Inziladun]

Also, Zil has just made me raise a big eyebrow in his general direction. *ping* (No, Mac, I'm not going to stop it!)

Elaborate, by all means.

[Nogrod]

I think it essentially (except for some random exceptions) means "only people lynched will ever be the tiebreakers".

Which would basically mean that yes, we will have a Cobbler vote from the QT toDay.
Legate is correct here on both claims (disclaimer to the second point: unless G55 and Rikae agree on a vote...).

Those "random exceptions" would be situations where none of the "voted to be quarantined" are part of a tie-vote in the QT. In that case the tie-breaker naturally needs to be one Night-Infected (and then similarly, the newest one to join the QT).

I have tried to use different terms of these different QT-dwellers, aka. "quarantined" for those voted out ("lynched") and "infected" for those ending there because of the Nightly activity of the Infectors ("Night Kills"). Obviously, I haven't been clear enough.


PS. We can't count on getting someone to re-vote just before DL in case of a tie, so it has to be a vote already cast that makes the difference. There are only two people in the QT right now, but in a couple of Days it will be different. So the need for this kind of arrangement should become clearer soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, first - there already so many posts toDay, and some struck me immediately, so...

Huinesoron's first post makes me wonder, because on the one hand, the way he's describing his Nightly activity as scribbling this post - which he clearly did - makes it more likely to be an innocent's endeavour; but on the other hand, I am just returning to my misgivings yesterDay and wondering whether he's exactly not being "helpful" here (perhaps WW with enought time on his hands, can imagine) plus subtly steering the discussion back to the "threesome" - and perhaps to Pitch, his yesterDay's suspect. If Pitch was innocent, it would be a safe way for a Wolf to keep on track with consistent suspicion onto a Day that starts the same way as the previous one: with the Village having nearly zero info.

My problem with yesterDay's voting is that half the village (this size) voted for G55 or Brinn, so that says very little. At least, until we know who Brinn is. *glances ominously in her direction* - But black humour aside, that is a fact, and that was the first thing I thought of the moment G55 was lynched and revealed to be a Cobbler. Whatever Brinn is, G55 just bought the WWs an extra Day during which we know nothing.

Just a thought about the QT vote - there are now two players in that thread and one is a cobbler. It's highly unlikely G55 will cooperate with Rikae and I believe if I'm right, in the case of a tie, G55 swings the vote. So while she may not know who the wolves are, we will all have to take that vote with a grain of salt.

I mentioned this above, and yes - unlike a quarantined Wolf, G55 doesn't know who the WWs are, so her vote will also not give much info (the plus side is that it may unexpectedly help the village, but that's pure chance).

A lot to unpack, but that could have gone much worse than how it turned out. First thought is it must be a cruel wolf pack to put G55 and Rikae together in the QT after their arguments yesterday.
My thoughts exactly. I hope it's bearable.

Oh I'd so love to be a fly on the wall of the QT now.
I have been thinking what kind of person, even if they are a Wolf, could be so cruel to send Rikae there with G55. Now I have one suspect.

I am a little bit side-eyeing the late (but before the "reveal") Brinn voters. If you were a wolf, you'd probably rather keep the loud, distracting player who is haring after someone not in your pack than keep the quieter player who isn't going to help you hide as much. Specifically, Mac, Legate, and Rune.
You are operating awfully close to the idea as if you somehow knew Brinn to be innocent. Objectively, the idea of Wolves keeping loud distracting player vs quiet one makes sense, but your whole theory stands on the idea that Brinn would have to be not one of them.

I think it's very interesting that Legate really didn't seem interested at all in the G55-Pitch options at the deadline yesterDay. In his last post before voting, he throws out Brinn, Kit, and Greenie as options, and then votes the only viable candidate there, but doesn't really talk about the other choices at all. It's not a huge thing, but it does kind of ping my radar as something a wolf might do if he wants to steer the vote a little bit, but doesn't want to look suspicious and isn't as invested as he would be if a wolf were actually in danger.
Well, I wasn't. Or there wasn't time for me to start suddenly weighing them and re-reading their posts. Brinn was the only one from those who I was considering to vote for before (see my list with zones from just before that). The choice, out of those who were likely to get lynched, was obvious.

On another note, Steve's vote was odd, to say the least. It's natural to have been frustrated by Urwen's lack of reasoning (I was), but there was no chance she would be lynched.
I don't know. I was a bit tempted to vote Urwen then myself (but it goes against my principle - I would usually give a "no show" first-time player one Day pass), and there still were more people who hadn't voted at that point. Anything was possible.
Rikae seems like an obvious choice, having been in a public spat with a traitor and under all circumstances a capacity they would not want around, so we seem to have unadventurous and downright boring wolves.

That was my first impression too. The added value is that either the Wolves are really heartless with sick sense of humour (after the fight the two had, sending them in together), or (I'd rather hope, because FIVE people with zero empathy?!?) perhaps nice Wolves who hope that on the QT, G55 might apologise to Rikae and Rikae might forgive her and then they can share a... drink of... desinfectant, probably.

I am absolutely confused by Mac's tinfoilhatting post at the moment, so maybe I'll leave it for the morning when I can process it with fresh braaaains.

EDIT: x-ed basically since my last. But ok, going to sleep on it for now.

[Urwen]

I think I am gonna take a page out of Pervinca's book and 'disappear'.

[Lhunardawen]

I am absolutely confused by Mac's tinfoilhatting post at the moment, so maybe I'll leave it for the morning when I can process it with fresh braaaains.

He's a zombie. Get him!

Rikae seems like an obvious choice, having been in a public spat with a traitor and under all circumstances a capacity they would not want around, so we seem to have unadventurous and downright boring wolvesThat was my first impression too. The added value is that either the Wolves are really heartless with sick sense of humour (after the fight the two had, sending them in together), or (I'd rather hope, because FIVE people with zero empathy?!?) perhaps nice Wolves who hope that on the QT, G55 might apologise to Rikae and Rikae might forgive her and then they can share a... drink of... desinfectant, probably.
I don't know about you guys, but I think determining who joins Cobb55 in the QT shouldn't be a main factor for a wolf kill. It may be because I've never played with a dead thread before and am yet to see how it affects actual game play, but wouldn't a dead thread game be like any other game in that the wolves would try to get rid of the Gifteds (particularly the Seer) during the Night? Maybe Rikae said something that made the Infected think they're the Seer. Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to go through their posts yesterDay to see if anything like this sticks out.

Off to work, will be back with what's left of my brains later toDay. And apologies for the lack of name bolding. I don't know how anyone manages to make proper Downs posts on mobile!

Edit: crossposted with Urwen. Coming from someone who has committed game suicide more than once in the past, the sooner the better for the village. One less person to worry about.

[Inziladun]

I think I am gonna take a page out of Pervinca's book and 'disappear'.

Are you going to speak plainly, or stay in "cryptic mode" indefinitely?

x/d with Lhuna

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did.

[Kitanna]

There is so much to unpack. I'm not even sure how I want to begin.
There's a lot of fairly vocal people I barely had a chance to look at yesterday. And yet, at the same time there's those flying under the radar who I haven't spared a second thought for. Well, I'm here and catching up on end of Day shenanigans and everything going on today now that G55 and Rikae have shed their mortal coils.

[Boromir88]

Rikae -> Brinniel
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel (2)
---30 min mark----
Kath -> G55 (2)
Inzil -> G55 (3)
Lottie -> G55 (4)
THE Ka -> Brinniel (3)
----15 min mark----
Rune -> Brinniel (4)
Lommy -> G55 (5)
Huines -> G55 (6)
Legate -> Brinn (5)
Macalaure -> Brinn (6)
Brinniel -> G55 (7)
Sally -> Brinn (7) (after "ranger reveal")

Ok, so I took out those who didn't vote for either G55/Brinn. 2 wagons that big had to have wolf involvement.

As noted already today, Steve's and Greenie's throw away votes came within the 30 minute mark. Looks of "not wanting to get their hands dirty." At the same time, can't tell if they're too suspicious without knowing Brinn's role.

Excluding Rikae's vote, Pitch's vote for Brinn, looks the most innocent to me. It came before the really either "wagon" developed.

Then came 3 straight votes for G55 (Kath, Inzil, Lottie). If Brinn's a wolf, this would be a prime spot to try to save a Brinnwolf. Kath's vote looks less suspicious as a "save Brinnwolf" vote, because she had early established suspicion of G55. Also, Inzil, and Lottie had made their votes for G55 after already knowing Kath's vote.

If Brinn's a wolf that mates were trying to save. Inzil andLottie's votes are the worst. (Rikae also in their final post to us pointed out the growing "let's not start a wagon against Brinn sentiments - pointing to Huey, Inzil and Lottie). If Brinn's innocent, Inzil and Lottie's vote still look suspicious, because by pushing forward G55, with under 30 minutes to go it kind of boxed us into 2 choices.

My head is going to hurt trying to unpack all those 15 minutes and under votes. Could be a wolf in there, but it's hard to tell with people voting and cross-voting. I'd have to look closer at their established reasons.

Rune asked someone why they were suspicious of Brinn at some point prior to his vote and he seemed to accept it. Doesn't look suspicious.

Brinn's vote is neutral. Self-preservation can't determine suspicion either way.

sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.

If Brinn's a wolf. The most suspicious voters:

Inzil
Lottie

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

Edit: cross posted since back somewhere on Page 8. Phew

[Inziladun]

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

G55 had been my only real suspect all Day. The sudden push for Brinn made me wonder if someone wasn't trying to save a Galwolf.

[THE Ka]

Very curious about this.

So am I... A lot of possibilities were said in that sliver of time.

I don't know that it's ever too early for wolves to frame someone, especially if you can get rid of a dangerous player at the same time.

True. They could have possibly wanted Rikae out of the way just for who they interacted with. I'm not personally the bold and brash type, but their 'bait post' certainly worked on finding the cobbler quickly (which makes sense). I could see Rikae possibly adjusting that for wolf bait Today after confirming G55's role if they were still in the GT.

As for Rikae's vote, looking back without the pressure of the DL, you can see that with the amount of attention G55 gave about that bait post and breaking down the interaction into a more distracting tit-for-tat. Rikae most likely had a hint G55 was a cobbler, even going so far to poke at G55 with, 'A wolf should know not to fall for it, right?'.

Rikae had earlier outlined this as well for her Brinn vote reasoning in post #148:

I know, these are the kinds of things a wolf would definitely make sure not to do, right? Right. So much so, it could be used as cover. And an innocent doing them coincidentally? That feels like a bigger stretch to me.

G55 also prior to this has an interest in Brinn, in post #147:
It's admirable to make sure you scrutinize everyone, not just the most vocal people. But not voting for someone you genuinely suspect because you think it might be a trap or get messy? This seems to be dancing too easily on the edge of voting whomever works out best for yourself. Brin, can I please request a summary of who you actually suspect?


It's interesting that despite the later confrontation of G55-cobbler and Rikae-villager where they are caught up targeting one another, both had come to similar suspicions.

G55-cobbler could have done so for a myriad of reasons, as we now have the benefit of some hindsight. Echo others, throw blame back for suspicion on them and Pitch, or to possibly see amongst those hiding in the shadow of their arguments who was leaning towards villager or wolf to either help or hinder.

Rikae's reasons are rather interesting, as I don't get the hint in their writing that they've quite confirmed on G55 being a cobbler at that point until G55 really started directing their arguments that way later on. Did they use the 'fake-vote' for Brinn at that time out of true suspicion, a nudge to get Brinn to defend themselves/interact more, or to see who else would argue against/for?

I'll admit I made my vote on similar suspicions, because of who was clustering around G55 and Rikae then and later during the height of their argument. It just was entirely too convenient a place to hide nearing the DL that wasn't involved some way in the G-P-L debate.

If Urwen was a baby wolf, I might expect that she would've tried harder to be involved. I definitely understand his point of view - this game means a lot to a lot of us, and I understand the temptation to lynch someone to whom it doesn't mean as much. But in terms of wolf hunting, it wasn't really a strong argument.

Sometimes a baby-wolf may be directed to play quietly by more experienced ones until they're needed, but that's typically when there's a few plans made with their vote the previous Night or an elder wolf to follow in argument (such as pushing a vote near DL). This time though, I don't have that hunch in the slightest. At all. I do have the very strong whiff of pettiness.

As for temptation as a sort of rebuttal against their vote for G55 (obviously for reasons other than game play), that could be a possibility as well, but cloaked in a flimsy argument so as not to seem non-game related and due to limited time. Only say this as someone who remembers when we had to stop playing WW due to personal arguments bleeding over into gameplay. Either way, it's not in good taste.

[Loslote]

If Brinn's a wolf. The most suspicious voters:

Inzil
Lottie

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

I'd been saying that G55 (and, to a lesser degree, Pitch) was my first choice all Day. I also was starting to suspect Mac and therefore to see the Brinnwagon in a sinister light, so I definitely wanted my top suspects over a player I thought was being pushed by a wolf. If Brinn does turn out to be a wolf, I'd be wrong, yeah, but I'd been pushing G55 over Brinn all Day, it wasn't a last minute shift to try to save anyone.

[Urwen]

It's times like these that I wish I were wolf. I would play better as one, as my experience shows

[Kitanna]

I decided to start by looking at those with 10 or less posts. I find it easier to organize my thoughts going player by player, so here we go with the first batch. Most of these I've pretty much ignored, except Lhuna I think.
A Little Green 10
Macalaure 10
satansaloser2005 8
Kath 7
THE Ka 6
Eönwë 4
Lhunardawen 4
Urwen 3
Lalaith 2

Lalaith
First post was #89 and she didn't say anything beyond "trying to read."
Next post
Still reading. As far as I can see everyone has now posted?

I feel very confused about the point of this false deadline business. Is that an idea just for toDay or a more general thing? Either way, Mac is right that we can't get/expect 100% turnout on false deadlines because of people having genuine RL commitments, and then of course we will have wolves avoiding the false deadline, by claiming they were busy elsewhere.

One thing I'm looking out for. With five wolves about, I suspect some of them will be picking fights with each other - they can afford to do some showboaty bickering to divert attention from potential allegiances.

What in Arda is Lhuna doing? Honouring family traditions?
She doesn't really say anything beyond questioning how helpful a fake vote would be and agreeing with Mac on how hard two DLs would be. She does mention with 5 wolves, we're likely to see some picking fights with one another. Comments on Lhuna's vote for herself.
Eventually Legate called her first post fishy.


Oof. Three pages of posts already. Five wolves in there somewhere causing chaos, with a cobbler urging them on.
I'd better get reading....
That was as fishy first post as they go. "Everyone is a Wolf, hint hint not me."
Ka later comments stating Lalaith hadn't really said anything and was more of a dead end. Legate comes back to her listing her in his Orange zone.
She didn't vote and any other comments about her were along the lines of "not enough to read." She hasn't been back since her second post.
Not much to say about Lalaith, she was talked of, barely, more than she posted. Not much to say, except, since she didn't vote I'm surprised she wasn't a "no trace" kill honestly.

Urwen
Spoke fairly early on, but didn't actually say anything.
Checking in.

Maeglin: Why did you bring me? I am not a part of this game.
Me: True, but I hope your sharp eyes will help me spot the wolves.
Maeglin: Ah, that makes sense.
On the first page on posts, Urwen ended in a lot of mentions thanks to Pitch's statistical approach to who was a wolf. Which I find amusing since Urwen and still had a lot of mentions. But that doesn't amount to anything given the joke context of Pitch's post.
I also find it amusing the two least posters were lumped together by Lommy
Lalaith and Urwen - ok I might have grouped them together for funsies, but it's true neither of them has given me enough material to work on, so nothing to say yet.
Really the same could be said of them today so far.
Post #202 votes for G55
Eonwe eventually votes for Urwen. Which looks like a safe vote from just CRTL+F Urwen, but we'll see when I actually dig into Eonwe.
Then today
I think I am gonna take a page out of Pervinca's book and 'disappear'.
Soooo super helpful. Voted out of spite, so at least that's honest...? I mean, a throwaway vote, but if taken at face value, an honest, if silly, reason to vote G55. Urwen cast the first vote for G55 by the looks of it. I'm not really sure what to make of it? If we believe it was just out of spite, then it was a waste and relatively unhelpful given how little there is to go on. If it was a wolf looking at who was gaining momentum, well that's another story. But as so many other said, there is so little there.

Lhuna
Posting to let us know she is in the "I hate Day 1" club.
I did make a comment about her "this isn't a helpful post" because it rubbed me the wrong way. It still rubs me the wrong way. It seems pointless to point out "there's no content here" when Day 1 is full of posts with no content (in general to WW games), hanging a flag on that fact annoys me and makes me ask "why bother?"
Her next post she votes for herself in honor of Nilp. Much of the rest of the post is responding to what was being discussed at the time. Fake DL, how the dead thread works, she then makes a list of suspects.
Brinn - just enough input to be visible, but feels careful. Noncommittal. Slippery.

Zil - if he's a wolf, he'll just hide under a cover of making sense.

Kitanna - jumpy, but maybe just an anxious ordo

Mac - scary. Yep, despite having only one post (I think) so far.

Boro - I don't know, I just don't trust him. And with 59 games under his belt, he seems like he's capable of unfathomable depths of deceit.

The rest fall into the categories of either talkative, speculative, and argumentative yet genuinely helpful OR practically non-existent. Or Shasta.
Or Shasta made me laugh very hard and I'm sorry I missed it earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife
Unless there's a quarantined Seer AND the majority of the Cuties are innocent, the QT vote is just another vote that may be rght or wrong or misguided or driven by evil intentions like everybody else's. No way for us to know.
THIS.

Mac is amusing. But still scary.

Now to bed. I will wear a face mask as I sleep; I suggest you all do the same. Maybe this way the Evil Breath won't get us, who knows.
Though I'm not sure why she found Mac scary.
In her self-vote post she responds to Mac on the fake DL, changing of fake votes where she discusses how a wolf could swing a vote. But I don't see anything to indicate why exactly she thought Mac was scary. Beyond, maybe, she didn't trust his own reasoning on wolves swinging votes?
And toDay:
Quote:

I am absolutely confused by Mac's tinfoilhatting post at the moment, so maybe I'll leave it for the morning when I can process it with fresh braaaains.
He's a zombie. Get him!
We don't want zombies on top of everything else...
I don't know about you guys, but I think determining who joins Cobb55 in the QT shouldn't be a main factor for a wolf kill. It may be because I've never played with a dead thread before and am yet to see how it affects actual game play, but wouldn't a dead thread game be like any other game in that the wolves would try to get rid of the Gifteds (particularly the Seer) during the Night? Maybe Rikae said something that made the Infected think they're the Seer. Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to go through their posts yesterDay to see if anything like this sticks out.
I'm still trying to figure out the dead thread myself since it's entirely new to me, but I agree with Lhuna's that it seems unlikely wolves would pick based on who joins the QT thread and more likely they feared she was the seer. Though it is possible given Rikae's spat with G55 is was more they thought they would be considered innocent toDay. I seem to recall a number of people saying they got innocent vibes from that fight. May have been the wolves removing someone who they saw as being generally trusted.

Eönwë
Brings up that G55 distanced herself from her idea of the fake vote. Offers innocent realziing it's a bad idea vs bold wolf. Feels good about Legate based on a reread of the fake vote discussion. Vocalizes early on that he's not sure he trusts Brinn
So far, I like THE Ka and Lommy. The fact that Brinn feels the same way (or at least claims to) makes me unsure about whether to trust her too or doubt my lack of suspicions about those two.
Requests clarification from the Mod God about wolves PMing in quarantine.
The next post is a list of what he thinks of this village. Some highlights, found Legate reasonable, though noted wolfLegate can be reasonable too. I read as undecided. Didn't find G55 overally suspicious. Believes others were trying to get her out of suspcions way by pinning the fake vote on Legate. Finds Boro unsettling, but not really suspicious it reads like. More of a side-eye thing than anything. Says he can't tell how he feels about Brinn which concerns him. Most everyone else fell into "not sure."
Voted Urwen. Of the Legate, Pitch, G55 trio thought Legate and Pitch were more innocent, unsure of G55 especially given her interaction with Rikae.
The reason I'm bringing this whole thing up is not to rehash this, but actually to point out that Zil, Brinn, and Lommy were also around then and lightly interacted with the topic, but as far as I remember without really addressing the fact that suspicions were being flung around (at least until later). I wouldn't be surprised if one of them were a wolf just going with the flow.

I also think there's something interesting going on between Legate, Pitch, and Mac which warrants more observation, but while I feel like someone among them may be suspicious, I really can't tell who it is.

I also agree with those that have said Boro is acting weird, but there will be more time for him to incriminate himself if he is guilty, and he's not suspicious enough for me to vote for him without hearing what he has to say for himself.
But then votes for Urwen because he doesn't like Urwen's vote. It is such a throwaway vote. Urwen hadn't said much and then proclaimed a vote out of spite, which is ugh on it's own, but Eonwe's vote doesn't look much better. This looks like a nice, safe vote on someone who was discussed, but wasn't actually gaining traction to be lynched. Rune even says if he were "a man of ideals" he'd have voted Eonwe for the Urwen vote.
Nothing for toDay.

THE Ka
Her first post starts with comments on fake voting, more specifically, thinking that no-vote was meant by the suggestion. Also states rushed villagers will grasp at straws to save themselves. This is in response to someone saying it's easy to catch a wolf in lying because they're fabricating accusations. I'm not sure who she's quoting though. Legate maybe? Since that's who she was responding to initially.
Discusses mechanics of QT vs GT in how wolves will vote. Next post talks some more on this after clarification on how the QT thread works.
The next post is a lot of talking game mechanics and potential wolf strategy. She responds to a number of people, but doesn't really give thoughts on other villagers, but rather on ideas being presented.
The next post calls for more substance from some players, though doesn't really name names. Later in the same post we get
So far, I really have no clue on Rune or Lhuna, but I know this is due to their time restraints and I can’t fault them on that alone. I could give them a pass the first Day, but I’d be looking for more substance the second given the material they’d have to look at along with us.
I also remember Lhuna having to step out early in game and to be completely honest, I can't in all consciousness go after someone on that either, because I've done that not once, but twice myself because of outside world responsibilities. One of the reasons I haven't played WW in almost ten years, unfortunately.
Rikae is Rikae, I’m not sensing anything out of their normal play style. I am however, not trying to let nostalgia cloud memory though...
I would like to see a little more explanation from Eonwe on their ideas since we’ve gotten past the fake-vote originator debacle. Have an interest in their deductions.
Loslote has me curious due to the repeated fanning of compliments to Huiensoron's thinking, but I'm not seeing much contribution outside of agreeing when it comes to Hui's theories.
Next post weighs in on G55/Rikae stating it's more of a difference in playing style. Later in the same post she says she finds their behavior true to character.
Quote:

Well, that wouldn’t be Kitanna late to that bandwagon…

I’ve re-read five of their posts since #36 and they’ve went from very iffy to consistent accusation against you, I’ll give them that at least.
What I’m more suspicious of, is those riding in their wake first with the Legate-G55-Pitch and now with G55-Rikae.

Between Brinn and Loslote, Brinn is playing far safer in their submarine by just throwing a ‘I have a hunch’ dart at Zil and following the G55-Rikae debate with mild defense of the Day 1 blues. That’s safe and yes, even villagers could take up that tactic, but this consistently? Hrrm.

I would have suspected Loslote for trying to play it too safe in the shadow of G55-Rikae with their comment about latching onto bandwagons and trying to cozy up to Rikae with a consistent criticism of G55’s arguments, but they do later begin to step out.
She focuses in on Brinn and Lottie the most throughout the post. And eventually votes Brinn. In her vote post she does respond to Zil on Urwen's vote. Calls it a potential joke vote to be safe, but has no substance to go off of.
Nothing toDay yet.

That's the first five lowest posters. Ugh, so many more to go. I think I'm going cross-eyed.

Edit I see THE Ka and Urwen each said something as I rifled through posts. Awesome...

[Inziladun]

It's times like these that I wish I were wolf. I would play better as one, as my experience shows

Whatever your role, just do your best. Watch others and see how they act, while forming your own opinions.

x/d with Kit

[Macalaure]

To prove that I’m not crazy, or at least not that crazy.

(I will mostly refer to post numbers instead of creating a 10-screens long post with 20 quotes.)

It started with Gala coming up with her fake vote thing. Legate took it up with excitement, though with a different spin, but Gala returned this excitement by calling him a cobbler in #38. I later said the same thing in #52:

Then Rikae made an error in #69, as I did not say I thought Legate looked infected, just cobblerish.

And G55 and Lommy have decided that Legate is a cobbler, and Inzil and Mac have suggested he's infected?

Then Gala comes out blazing in #71, quoting the above and challenging Rikae. I addressed it as well in #97, with somewhat less furor. Gala restates it in #127:

And I jokingly called you out on deliberately summarizing incorrectly. This only serves to sow confusion and derail the village, or give people (you most of all) an excuse to vote based on, frankly, false grounds if the vote is based off this post. My point still stands.

In the same post she quotes my #97, telling me that there are other problems with Rikae's post, too, without elaborating. A minor attempt to try and side with me, the first of a few.

In #128 (crossing with Gala) Rikae understands what Gala meant in the first place. They check, see their error, and admit to it. That could have been that. Gala, however, doesn’t buy it, and over the next few posts between the two, some cross-posted, the argument slowly escalates. Over the course, Gala keeps “siding” with me several times, even though I didn’t mention anything about this since my one comment in #97.

I am waiting for a response from Rikae. Being curt is one thing, being deliberately wrong is another. And she just - sidesteps - the questioning from myself and Mac, like that post never happened.

#147:
Throw some unsupported shade on people, then dismiss half of it as a joke and half of it as an oopsy daisy, and the post gets forgiven but the shade remains. Actually, it was so bombastically inaccurate I am surprised only Mac called you out on it except for me.

#156:
Seriously? No one else except Mac has noticed anything wrong with that post?

Then in #166 I weigh in, accepting Rikae’s explanation and calling Gala’s case far-fetched, but at this point the fight is already all over the place.

.......

In her vote, Gala mentions other things, but following her posts, she very much started going after Rikae because they misrepresented something I said, thus exaggerating her suspicion of me. That's what everything spiraled out of control from. Gala must have thought Rikae was gifted, it makes no sense that she would go after them like that over that little reason if it was otherwise. A cobbler’s life isn’t worth much, but they tend to not go kamikaze this early without purpose.

Maybe she got hunter or ranger vibes from something, possible, but:
- it’s not unreasonable that seer-Rikae would pick me as their first dream.
- if you’re the seer and you know a wolf, what do you do? Keep quiet? Drop hints? Go all out and accuse? Try to subtly steer the village into lynching that wolf?
The way Rikae suspected me could fit the latter. Gala tried to associate herself with me several times, which makes me suspect that Gala thought so as well, a cobbler trying to reach out to who she thought was a wolf.

All of this was already on my mind during the Night and now Rikae is dead. Obviously, it’s a bit of a stretch for me to assume the wolves saw everything the same way. But here’s the thing - I got some fire late yesterDay from Greenie and a few. With a bit of a push, that case could gain momentum and get me lynched toDay - and an innocent lynched is a wolf not lynched.

I do realize that my slight paranoia might get me lynched, too. (https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F022%2 F524%2Ftumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg) :p

[Boromir88]

I should have started the day with this, but just to put it out here now, My predominant suspicion coming into the day is Brinn's a wolf. If the DL was NOW, I'd vote Brinn. Based on the voting yesterday and Rikae's death.

Rikae does love traps. Rikae was pretty clear yesterday in that they did intentionally set a trap and suspected Brinn fell into it. Turns out Rikae had no special knowledge, but trying to put myself back into Day 1, the wolves wouldn't have known Rikae was an ordo. Brinnwolf fell into Rikae's trap and overall with Rikae's posting yesterday felt Rikae was a gifted, or in the least Rikae was going to be an assumed innocent.

Trying to put on my wolf gloves and mask, anytime people come out saying the kill was a "frame" to set up an innocent for an easy lynch, it pings (sorry Pitch :p) my radar. I recall more than once of past experiences where we go through 3-4 day/night cycles without lynching a wolf. But the only deaths are ordos, and it winds up destroying the pack. The longer gifted stay in, the more they start to uncover, the more they're able to figure out and coordinate dreams/protections/hunts amongst themselves and eventually the wolfpack runs out of "unknown ordos" to kill. Bottom line is, every pack (maybe not) but purely on theory and experience you go for gifteds first. No matter the cost if it makes a fellow wolf look bad or not. I mean hell we have 5 wolves. So yes the "Brinn's being framed" is suspicious

I was going to look at the Brinn voters, if Brinn is NOT a wolf, but that's a whole different string to pull. I hate strings about as much as I hate lists, and feel like there's 55,000 strings that I can pull on. Head is going to explode. So, I'm going to call it a night. I've skimmed through current day posts, but wanted to lay out all my thoughts from Day 1 voting and Rikae's death. Noted Inzil's and Lottie's reply to my suspicions, but will have to wait until some sleep to look back through their Day 1 activity.

I'm going to follow the "Brinn's a wolf string," unless there's convincing enough reasons not to. I don't buy the "frame" defense.

Edit: sorry trying to follow Rikae's wishes here. Still catching myself missing it, but corrected in this post.

Folks, can we please refer to Rikae as they/them/their? Thank you.

[Kitanna]

Kath
Pops in to tell us all about her busy work and school filled life :P
She does provide some clarification on the rules as she read them in the rules thread.
She then points out where and how the no lynch/fake vote debate got started. She states she doesn't understand the concept
I don't really understand the concept. If everyone said who they would vote for, but there's no lynch and no role reveal, then the votes don't tell anything. Also the lynch is the only way of taking a wolf down unless the Hunter is targeted at Night and has picked a wolf.
I find it interesting how some people took the fake vote suggestion as no vote and others took it as two votes, one fake, one real. Kath falling on the belief it meant no real vote.
She goes on to say she doesn't understand what Legate was getting at when he jumped on the idea. Points out G55 calling Legate's jumping on the idea "cobbler much," which in hindsight is funny. States G55 backs away sharply from her own idea.
Summarizes a lot of the discussion up to that point.
Next post is more responses to discussion up to that point. And so on for the next post. Maybe it's because I'm tired, but it seems like a lot of Kath's first posts are reactions to what was being discussed. And while hooray discussion! I am finding it hard to say much beyond, "Kath seems reasonable."
Her next post she breaks down her thoughts on the votes up to that point.
Votes as I go:
Lhuna --> Lhuna - I mean, what is there to say really? It's a thing. I'm ok with being a thing toDay, but not anything past that.

Rikae --> Brinn - seems to be largely down to the wanting to avoid a trap comment. Other people have mentioned wanting to steer clear of the Legate-Pitch-G55 triangle, but even that seems to have died down as the Day has gone on and more people have appeared. Perhaps it's the 'avoid a trap' wording rather than the sentiment itself?

G55 --> Rikae - quite a big fight seems to have blown up between these two. I looked at post 69 and couldn't really see anything in it. Yes, Rikae somewhat exaggerated events but it was early in the Day and to me read as typical banter. I don't think there was this element of deliberate misrepresentation that G55 feels is going on. I don't know if G55 has played with Rikae before and it's an unfamiliarity with playing style thing, or a great way for a wolf-G55 to have a pretty logical reason to vote an innocent-Rikae.
Calls me consistent in response to others and I'm flattered.
Oh and Boro --> Pitch - supposed deliberate flip flopping between Legate and G55.

Urwen --> G55 - 'because I am Morleg and I am spiteful'. That's either a horrible reason for a vote or some reference I'm not understanding. Had Urwen shown any suspicion toward G55 before this? I don't really even recall Urwen posting until now.

Pitch --> Brinn - for using the same suspects as Rikae and then switching to Kitanna when she was suspected for this.
Her next post is looking at Urwen who only had the two posts. She tries to understand why the vote for G55
Then votes for G55. She had leveled some suspicion her way, so it's not unusual to see the vote.
No word toDay from her.

Cupcake aka Sally
First post is, from what I remember, classic Sally. She promises us links and laughter.
Next post provides promised links. Calls for an end to fake vote nonsense before it makes her "properly suspect people."
Next is simply "here and trying to catch up." Then explains how to quote within a quote for Kath.
Next is around, but obviously RL working, though, Sally dear, this is more important than a call.
Votes Brinn to save a "maybe ranger." Realizes her vote is the best she can do at the moment.
Starts off the posting for toDay, glad no one dead was the actual Ranger.
Suspected Rikae was a defensive wolf and then suspected them as defensive gifted. Makes notes on Rikae's temper. Notes Lalaith didn't vote.
Questions Steve's votes. Guys, it's been a long time, but who the frack is Steve in all this? Eonwe? Or is there a Steve I can't see posts from?!
Also says Greenie had a throwaway vote. Greenie voted for Mac. I remember a few people calling Mac scary and being unsure, but 1) I don't remember him doing anything scary 2) I don't remember what Greenie said of him, so I'm not sure this was a throwaway vote.
So that's Sally. I have so little to say about our little cupcake. Her vote seems the logical choice for a villager or a wolf. It was a last minute reveal, it's not like the real Ranger could counter that late in the Day. I suspect Sally on principal. It just feels wrong if I don't.

That's it for tonight. I pretty much roll out of bed and work until DL, but I'm intent on getting caught up. But it maybe the Cliff Notes version of things.

[Brinniel]

On Rikae's death...

Scenario 1. The wolves thought Rikae was gifted. But if they though them the seer, then they know that they didn't dream of me. Really, people. Are some of you really suggesting that a wolf-version of me would be dumb enough to go after Rikae because I thought they were the seer? :rolleyes: I don't know if any wolves would be so jumpy this early in the game. In a village of 20+, it would be very lucky indeed if the seer dreamt of a wolf on Night 1.

Scenario 2. Rikae's death was a way to frame me.

Scenario 3. Rikae looked more innocent after the exchange with G55, so they were an easy kill.

The problem is that all three of these are possibilities and there are probably more out there, which leads me to...

Scenario 4. The wolves love chaos.

There are so many reasons why the wolves could've chosen Rikae including confusing and distracting the village. If we spend too much time trying to theorize why they died, that takes away focus from the actual posting from YesterDay and toDay, which plays into the wolves' hands. That said, I am wary of anyone who will lean too much into focusing on the Night kill.

So that is the last I will say on the Night kill.

I'm going to follow the "Brinn's a wolf string," unless there's convincing enough reasons not to. I don't buy the "frame" defense.

If you're gonna stick with that, then you're wasting your Day. I see a lot of theories from you on who is suspicious based on the assumption that I'm wolf, but I am not aware of the reason why you suspect I am one in the first place.

Okay, I am going through each player post-by-post and taking handwritten notes in the process in hopes that I can gather a better feeling of everyone. Seeing that there's nine pages, this may take awhile...

[Lalaith]

Huge apologies everyone. After reading the first 3 pages yesterDay and making a couple of posts, RL turned into a stressfest which meant I didn't return to the game until just past the deadline. I feel really bad not contributing more and especially for missing the vote.
My first thought on looking at the way the lynching went - we can assume that G55-cobbler did not think Brinn was a wolf or she wouldn't have tried to save herself? That of course doesn't mean Brinn isn't a wolf, but it might be worth bearing in mind. And all that fake-vote business was started by a cobbler which makes total sense in hindsight. Legate's interest in the fake vote idea was curious, and I must say in general I have been struggling to follow his reasoning and find myself disagreeing with a lot of his conclusions about people and events. That doesn't make him a wolf of course but I feel wary of him.
So, yesterDay, a lot of things happened...some of which I haven't properly analysed. But here are some of the things/people I've had impressions about, good, bad or middling. Good feelings about Greenie, who I thought was reading posts carefully and thinking about things in a genuine and sensible way which feels unwolflike. Zil is coming across in a similarly honest way. Sally's panicked late arrival and attempt to save the alleged Ranger at DL felt like a genuine act by an innocent.
Boro's stream of consciousness posts yesterDay were odd and made me convinced he was the cobbler. However he clearly isn't :rolleyes: and he's being more sensible toDay. His focus on Brinn is interesting and I take issue with her thoughts on Rikae's death - that the first two scenarios were all about her (Brinn). Yes, they did vote for her, but lets not forget Rikae boldly named three people in their first post - Pitch, G55 (cobbler) and Mac. One of those names could have been what killed them. Indeed, they carry on being suspicious of both Pitch and Mac for a couple of posts before the row with G55. (As far as Mac is concerned - I was finding him like Greenie, honest and helpful for the first few pages but then I wasn't sure. Need to go over things again to pinpoint what's worrying me)

[Brinniel]

Summaries starting with the most frequent posters...


Inziladun: He is the most frequent poster, yet his posts don't contain a lot of substance and are a bit agreeable. This could be a wolf tactic, which is why he was on my suspect list yesterDay. He did suspect G55 in post #205 - his reasons are explicit, but they seem to be similar to reasons others suspected her. In his vote for G55, he states her death could shed light on Pitch, Legate, and Rikae. I have yet to see him mention the former two toDay. ToDay, he starts by disregarding the possibility of a frame kill and seems to imply that it points to me being a wolf. Then he appears to reverse his position in post #304 to acknowledge that a frame job is possible. Has stated that Eonwe's vote was odd, which I do agree (but more on that later).

Impressions: My opinion of Inzil hasn't really changed much. The frequent posts with low substance can be a wolfish tactic. While his opinion on G55 was consistent, it was an easy bandwagon to follow. And yes I may be biased, but do find his comments about the Night kill fishy.

---

Lottie: Also a frequent poster, but with more substance. She brings up the possibility of a G55/Pitch wolf pair in post #146, and remains consistent with those suspicions and ends up voting for G55. She quickly jumps on Greenie's comments on Mac, which could be suspicious if Mac is innocent. ToDay she finds the last-minute bandwaggoners for me suspicious with the reasoning that if I'm innocent, I'd be a preferable lynch.

Impressions: Lottie is what I call a helpful player, which doesn't point either way alone. However, her suspicions of Pitch/G55 stayed pretty consistent throughout the Day so I don't find her vote suspicious. And her reasoning for the wolves to join the bandwagon to vote me is something I agree with. I think I recall being fooled by Lottie, so I'll remain cautious, but right now I'm leaning innocent.

---

Pitchwife: Early on, he appears to suspect G55 and Legate, but more so the latter for picking up on G55's idea of the no-vote. In post #163, he thinks there's a wolf among Rikae, Kit, Lottie, and me based on our suspicion of him. The Rikae/G55 squabble makes him think better of them. He ended up suspecting my later posts then later voted me for the reasons of using Rikae's shortlist, then backing off and redirecting to Kit.

Impressions: So I found Pitch slightly suspicious yesterDay because he picked on Legate who if innocent, could be easy to build a case against. I did back off some on the suspicions, as I sensed a bandwagon building on him and if he were innocent, could be the work of wolves and didn't want to be caught up in it (which is apparently the post that several including Rikae found to be suspicious). He voted second for me, which is before the bandwagon against me really began and while I disagree with his reasons, from his perspective, I do actually find them to be valid. No, I did not intentionally copy Rikae's list, but I also didn't do a good job at giving reasons to suspect the people on my list and after reviewing my posts, I suppose backing off on him didn't look great either. After re-reviewing his posts, I do find Pitchwife to be more genuine and if I were to guess, I'd think him innocent.

--

Shasta: In post #188, he predicts G55-cobbler, Rikae-innocent. Is that Shasta being psychic again? He questions Greenie's thinking in post #197, then more so in post #211. He ends up voting Pitch for it appears his comment on Eonwe in #174. Mentions he doesn't like Greenie's and Eonwe's throwaway votes.

Impressions: Shasta's style is short and to the point, but he does give his opinions. I don't really understand his vote for Pitch. Because Pitch put down Eonwe's list as too wishy-washy...or am I missing something here?

--

Oh good grief, have I really only done four people? I'm gonna be up all night getting this done.

To be continued...

[Eönwë]

So... it looks like despite that scare at the end there (and as I was reading through hours later when I finally had time, I did panic a bit when reading G55's reveal), the lynch could've gone worse.

First, about my vote: there's not much more to say other than that I was on very limited time and had only managed to catch up to post #212, which was the most recent post when I arrived (as mentioned in my post). I did do a refresh just to see votes before making my final choice, but at that point we were still on page 6 and no-one had more than 2 votes so it was all still open (and I really didn't have time to look to see if I'd x-posted or not).

[Eönwë]

Now, to business:

One thing I'm wondering about is the very very late timing of the G55 reveal. The options, at increasing levels of bluff, seem to be:

She was trying to get an innocent Brinn killed.
She wanted us to believe (1), but actually thought Brinn was an Infector and knew it was too late.
She wanted us to believe (2), but actually thought that Brinn was innocent and wants us to suspect her by assuming (2) is true.

Given that she's the Cobbler whose aim to sow confusion and discord, unless anyone has any specific thoughts, I'm not sure how much it's worth thinking about this (and potentially wasting time doing what she wants, which is getting confused about her actions) any further, but I just wanted to put this out there. Also important to note that she did not know any more than us, so her suspicions (or lack thereof) only hold slightly more weight than others because we know that she doesn't know any more than the rest of us.

[Eönwë]

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

This is a good point!

For reference, here is the vote count (borrowed from Nog's post with the last vote added):

Lhuna -> Lhuna
Rikae -> Brinniel
G55 -> Rikae
Boro -> Pitchwife
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel 2
Kath -> G55 2
Shasta -> Pitchwife 2
Kitanna -> Pitchwife 3
Inzil -> G55 3
Lottie -> G55 4
Greenie -> Macalaure
THE Ka -> Brinniel 3
Eönwë -> Urwen
Rune -> Brinniel 4
Lommy -> G55 5
Huines -> G55 6
Legate -> Brinn 5
Macalaure -> Brinn 6
Brinniel -> G55 7
Sally -> Brinniel



One thing that I don't think people have really addressed toDay is that Pitch was seriously on the chopping block yesterDay and then managed to get taken out of the running, and a large part of that was G55 becoming an eligible vote candidate due to Zil and Lottie.

As a side note, come to think of it, Boro writing the above post and not mentioning this specifically when Pitch was the only viable non-Brinn vote-candidate at the time, while also voting for Pitch and not including the full vote-list (and thus leaving others to find out for themselves) could suggest a potential arms-length Boro-Pitch Infector pairing, which is an interesting idea that I'm going to have to look into.

On the other hand, while I'm sure there are wolves hiding in both the late Brinn and G55 votes, I think some of the earlier votes look like they could also be interesting (for example Shasta and Kitanna's Pitch-waggon that temporarily made Pitch the most-voted), but I will need to look at them more closely when I have time.

However, if Brinn does turn out to be a wolf, THE Ka and Legate are potential candidates for treading the (Infector-y) just-risky-enough-to-not-seem-throwaway-but-not-directly-leading-to-packmate-being-quarantined vote line.

[Eönwë]

Maybe I'm just paranoid and seeing possible wolf-groups everywhere, but after their coordinated votes yesterDay and this post:

I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did.

I can't help wondering if Shasta and Kitanna aren't an Infector duo being too obvious and just messing with us (though whether this would make Brinn more likely to be an Infector or someone they're trying to frame is up in the air).

[A Little Green]

That was some Day 1! I'm glad now that we weren't able to swing the vote, but I do think it's worth looking at those late votes. I know Shasta guessed that G55 was a cobbler, and Infectors might've guessed too, but they didn't know either, and I'm sure they wouldn't have rushed to save someone who claimed to be the Ranger if they had any plausible deniability...
Not sure I agree with this – not rushing to save a self-proclaimed Ranger if you have the chance would be next to suicidal for a wolf. For the same reason, I don’t really follow Boro’s reasoning here –
sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.
I don’t think we can read anything into Sally’s vote one way or another. She voted to save a self-proclaimed Gifted a few minutes before DL, which to me doesn’t say anything about her alignment - regardless of what Brinn is.

(This is in response to a point of mine against Huin.) Me neither, necessarily. But it’s a plausible wolf tactic to say someone looks innocent while at the same time inviting others to make their case for guilt.Ah, got it now. That’s fair enough.

I think it's very interesting that Legate really didn't seem interested at all in the G55-Pitch options at the deadline yesterDay. In his last post before voting, he throws out Brinn, Kit, and Greenie as options, and then votes the only viable candidate there, but doesn't really talk about the other choices at all. It's not a huge thing, but it does kind of ping my radar as something a wolf might do if he wants to steer the vote a little bit, but doesn't want to look suspicious and isn't as invested as he would be if a wolf were actually in danger.Not sure if this is valid – as I recall, Legate had previously stated that he didn’t suspect G55 or Pitch, so him not finding them interesting as potential lynchees doesn’t strike me as particularly suspicious.

PS: Huin... I now have Cobbler55 stuck in my head to the tune of Mambo No.5. Why did you do this to me??Nooooooooooooooo! :eek::eek:

Agreed it's a terribly bad throw away vote sure.

But had I been able to and not already voted, when I read Steve's vote I thought I would be very tempted to do the same thing. I thought Urwen's vote was unsporty and even though G55 turned out cobbler, I had same exact reaction as Steve's. Looked like Urwen had no interest in being helpful.

If G55 turned out Ranger, I would be feeling a lot different about Steve's throw away.Why? I’m a little uneasy about Eonwe’s vote too as he’s been very cautious in general and that vote was, as Lommy and Lottie have pointed out, an easy way to keep his hands clean. But whether G55 was the cobbler or the ranger shouldn’t really impact an assessment of Eonwe because an Eonwolf wouldn’t know what she was, aside from “not wolf”.

Both Eonwe and Lalaith speculate on whether G55 thought Brinn was a wolf or not. Personally I don’t think this matters one way or another as the cobbler doesn’t have any more knowledge about anyone’s roles than an ordo would.

Lottie is what I call a helpful player, which doesn't point either way alone. However, her suspicions of Pitch/G55 stayed pretty consistent throughout the Day so I don't find her vote suspicious. And her reasoning for the wolves to join the bandwagon to vote me is something I agree with. I think I recall being fooled by Lottie, so I'll remain cautious, but right now I'm leaning innocent.
Hm. I’m not sure how consistent equals innocent.

Questions Steve's votes. Guys, it's been a long time, but who the frack is Steve in all this? Eonwe? Or is there a Steve I can't see posts from?! Steve = Eonwe. Don’t ask.

I’ll be back trying to unpick some of the Rikae-Brinn-Mac tangle next.

[THE Ka]

Firstly, this is going to be a wall of text. Secondly, since I had a little more time than Day 1, I wanted to go back and examine the events around Rikae’s infamous ‘wolf-bait’, sans G55 argument.



Well, it's good to see that Lommy and G55 have come to the conclusion that we need to try lynch a wolf, er, quarantine an infected. And G55 and Legate have agreed we should cast fake votes.

And G55 and Lommy have decided that Legate is a cobbler, and Inzil and Mac have suggested he's infected?

Seriously, it's interesting how the fake votes discussion evolved, seemingly from a couple of throwaway comments to a serious suggestion. Normally it would be totally pointless, but there is some sense in it as a way to prevent people from lurking and waiting to bandwagon on the QT vote. However, I don't think it's practical, and probably won't be necessary, as "lurk and wait for the QT vote" would become suspicious behavior very quickly anyway.

When it comes to single top suspects vs lists, both have their pros and cons and leave material to analyze later on. Me, I like lists. Here's one, just to get the ball rolling:

Pitchwife
G55
Macalaure

Mac –
I don't know. He does love playing as a wolf, but I think he also enjoys looking sinister as an innocent.

Going back and looking over Rikae’s ‘bait-post’, this was especially insightful. Rikae speculates from Mac’s tone and approach that they’re either just happy to be playing again, or the quote given above. If you looked at some of Mac’s earlier posts on face value alone (for lie detecting in WW we don’t have the benefit of ‘face’ language), they’re using contractions, there is very little distance from who their subject is in their lists (using names directly, interspersed with memories/gossip, etc.), etc. They perhaps don’t omit everything and have some extraneous details here and there to roleplay a little with others, but when confronted on this, they cooperate with the questioning. It’s fun to be mysterious, to play, but the behavior above isn’t quite the one of someone trying to hide in the corner nor spend all their mental effort meticulously repeating an alibi.
I don’t think I’ve played with Macalaure in WW before, so I really don’t have the benefit of knowing their play style like others do, but I do know enough basics of looking for lying behavior and I’m not really seeing it in these posts. I didn’t see the logic entirely when players were trying to decide to make a Macwagon (another reason is that term alone is making me think of this: :smokin: and then my mind just wants to make jokes the entire time…) the first Day.

G55 – Welp, not much to say here since their role was revealed to us yesterDay and we’ve spent most of that time discussing them. Instead, I’d rather spend time looking at who they were casually sniffing around after their debate with Rikae. It’s obvious now that the fake-vote idea was their bait for both villagers and wolves to see not really who, but how players would react and who was going to react the most.

Legate, of course, whom G55 later tried to pin the idea on, showed the most genuine interest in the idea and in usual fashion (not really blaming, I did the same with my curiosity over QT because it was new/exciting/untested), began to work further from the groundwork G55 laid out and tried to figure out why. Here I do have the benefit of having played with Legate before a few times and the fact that he is willing to answer confrontations about his sudden interest speaks genuinely to his past playing behavior. Granted, its been years since we’ve both had a chance to play a game together so he may have changed a few of his habits, but this one isn’t odd for his usual neck-out and stream-of-consciousness extrapolations.

Pitch – This one… I’ve been trying to read for awhile now. I’ve even agreed with them on occasion when they’ve given small isolated replies. Now to see how they interacted with Rikae and what it shows.

Post #98 – Not directly to Rikae, but addresses questions from when they were out. Defends why they pressured Legate over the interest in the fake-vote idea. Asks why all the worry over waiting for the QT vote – it could be just as flawed as the GT result that Day.

Post #100 – Confronts Mac, why did you find my pin on Legate odd when you just said so yourself.

Post #107 – Confronts G55 on twisting words over debate about QT vote. Mention of my question to Legate and confusion over fake-votes/no-votes vs regular deadline.
(To Pitch: I saw your question and re-read my earlier post. I meant ‘bunk’ as in slang for ‘worthless’/’knock-off’/’obvious lie’. Not the other ‘bunk’…har, har)

Post(s) #114,118: Analysis on multiple players. #118 mention of Rikae: Seems usual self.

Post #120 – Reply to Hui:
I don't think I've seen that many people suspecting Mac to a significant amount (Rikae, of course, myself a bit, who else?), more like saying he's creepy & scary no matter what. Anyway, it's always good for a wolf pack not to get all entangled in the same skirmish but spread themselves out in several combat zones, so to speak.
…
This response I found the far more reasonable so far. Co-conspirators typically don’t exclusively interact with one another, especially when they’re trying to tell ‘the tale’ and collaborate, because they’re usually too busy trying to put what they rehearsed before into use and for safety. They’re not going to expend the effort to elaborate each other’s stories (because, surprise, one might’ve had to change theirs to fit the situation and now they’re out of sync). Two truthful people asked a question about an event are going to naturally reconstruct what they shared together and have no difficulty being interactive.
…

Post #163: Echoes some of the other’s suspicions on a possible wolf between Rikae, Brinn, Kit, and Lottie.

G55 is all over the place, fairly confrontational, sometimes eyebrow-raising (about Urwen/Maeglin: really? ). Her all-out attack on Rikae just now does sound a lot like passionate innocent though and makes me feel better about her.
Paradoxically, so does Rikae's response so far.
…
Makes a line up and then eliminates one along with their main confrontation. Though in the context this presents a reasonable choice (plenty of others acted or said the same about G55/Rikae debate). Could have included Rikae in the list anyways as a demonstration that they were involved with the other three, but while Brinn and Lottie were hovering around the G55/Rikae debate, Kit was not directly in it. Kit was however connected to the G-L-P by being it’s main arbiter when it came to trying to find a possible wolf between the three.

My main question is, unless I’m just tired and missing it, why Kit in this specific grouping?
….

Post #171: Confronts Brinn on casually suspecting Kit for pushing for wolves in G-L-P. Brings up they only did so after Mac.
(Rikae by this point previously had already voted for Brinn).

Post #174: Responds to Rune, admits that they are flip flopping on suspicion on G55 again. Notes suspicion on Eonwe’s heightened agreeableness.

Post #210: Vote post. Votes for Brinn with reasoning:

Picked suspects from Rikae's shortlist, then backed off when attention turned away from the LPG triangle, and when she got suspected for this she tried to shift the suspicion to Kitanna, who had been more or less in the same camp.

Question I’m wondering, is why didn’t Pitch go with Kit given the previous amount of information and continued suspicion they had on their sudden hunt for wolves among them, Legate, and G55? They admit their uncertainty on G55 previously and Rikae’s possible innocence, but then go with Rikae’s list of fellow accused, swap out Mac, and then include Brinn (why not Lottie as well?).

Onto another note:

Post #305 -
Except wolves know all day that they have to make up the reasoning for a vote for an innocent and can plan for it accordingly.

That’s to be expected and wolves would definitely know that themselves… and then act in contrast. Similar to when you’re examining someone on an event, the liar needs to make a story of what they did and why for protection, but at the same time they’re watching you very closely because they don’t know what facts you have about them.

There’s also the fact that wolves don’t know who the cobbler is on Day 1 any more than every other role. Once the cobbler starts disrupting though, the wolves are going to study it closely. Not for the cobbler, but who is on the sidelines with whoever the cobbler is arguing with. When they see an opinion of the situation start to form from the spectators, they have to adapt their plan and story rather quickly. If a wolf can’t do so, they need a temporary shelter until they can write their reasoning up why. If this is before a bandwagon forms, they’re quickly joining either side of a good ol’ fashioned cobbler debate and when asked about it later, feign the same fears as a villager, ‘oh, they were just so adamant and I didn’t know if either was correct, but I didn’t want to be singled out for doing nothing so I panicked and said enough to contribute.’ This can later be used as a convincing means of why they might back-peddle, saying they have more evidence now that they’re not under attack, etc.

When pressed later though, if someone is a villager, they’re going to defend themselves. It might not even be the exact same way they told you the first time, but the difference is they’ll be more eager to tell you to clear themselves.

When I was suspicious of both Brinn and Loslote of drifting into the shadow of Rikae-G55 debate, Loslote was the one out of the two who began defending themselves. A villager is probably gonna show anxiety on small things like when they replied to you, semantics and word choice, etc. not immediately what you’re accusing them of. At that point, they just want to prove themselves.

If a wolf was defending themselves, they’d of made a script or perhaps several to accommodate for this. You could ask a wolf trying to hide to explain themselves and you’ll get a lot of words, very direct, but not entirely what you asked. Another is the ‘duping delight’ of WW, usually the confident little glimmer in responses ‘you can ask/vote however you want’ or ‘it’s whatever you make of it’, which puts the blame of ‘mean interrogator’ on who’s pressing for an explanation.

We definitely saw this with Rikae to G55, but surprisingly a few times with G55 to a few others they were questioning afterwards.



On that note, it’s past midnight in my time zone and I should have already been in bed, but I wanted to look over who was hovering around Rikae’s list a little more. I’ll be back tomorrow, hopefully early enough to catch up everyone’s posts before I make a vote.

[Brinniel]

Boro: Early on he's a bit of an oddball, but that doesn't point either way. Spends plenty of time posting about player style. In post #113, he fake-votes Legate for picking up on the fake-vote idea from G55. Does anyone see irony in that? He ends up actually voting Pitchwife for flip-flopping between G55 and Legate. ToDay he announces me as his primary suspect in post #332 without stating why, then states he's going to focus on possible suspects based on my guilt.

Impression: I actually find his vote reasoning for Pitch rather flimsy. Yes, Pitch was a little indecisive, but I don't think enough to merit a vote. And then there's toDay. I just don't understand the sense in looking at other players with the presumption of another unknown player's guilt without considering alternatives.

---

Legate: Picks up on G55's fake vote idea which gathers plenty of attention. He begins to suspect Kit for her comments on Lhuna, then builds on suspicion when she switches her suspicion to him in post #88. He's unsure about me, but votes me over Kit because she's not in the running and my death could be revealing.

Impression: His early comments of the Day could be a bold wolf, but I'm more inclined to think not. I don't like his vote, but it is not necessarily suspicious since he didn't want to spread out the vote and seemed least certain about me among those in the running.

---

Lommy: In post #144, she suggests G55 could be the cobbler. She finds Pitch grasping at straws, Hui suspicious for his suspicion of her (that it seems fabricated), and Boro is acting odd. At post #150, her fake vote goes to Boro for shying away from confrontation and not giving normal vibes. In post #203, she thinks G55 looks bad in her confrontation with Rikae and later votes her. ToDay, she further explained her vote, stating she preferred lynching G55 over me.

Impression: My opinion of Lommy hasn't changed either. She still appears genuine to me. Her suspicion of Boro was consistent and in my opinion, not too much out there. She didn't vote him, but clearly that was due to not wanting to spread the votes.

---

Hui: Starts to suspect Lommy based on her comments about Day 1, stating that it gave "finding a wolf toDay is impossible, so why bother trying" vibes. There's some further exchanges that continue that suspicion. In post #93, he's wary of Mac suspicions, and backs off Lommy slightly. By post #183 Lommy is back on the suspect list. He points out the suspicion against me has come out of nowhere and then votes G55 to avoid me getting lynched (thanks) and thinks a wolf is behind the bandwagon.

Impression: I don't agree with his Lommy suspicions, but I do like his concern about the bandwagon against me - however, that does not spell innocence. I could see a wolf trying to support an innocent to gain her trust. Hui does a lot of summaries of previous posts which appears helpful, but could also be a facade should he be a wolf.

---

Mac: In post #111, he thinks there's too much focus on LGP and the Day could end up a race between them. He started to pick up on my comments and suspect them, which is why he votes me. ToDay he's been talking about theories of Rikae as the Night kill and thinks it could be way to frame him.

Impressions: I was agreeing with his posts, right up until he started suspecting me. As for those suspicions, I'm not sure what to think - could be genuine or he could be helping to set me up. His theory toDay is a stretch - I just don't find it likely that the wolves would kill Rikae for that reason.

---

Rune: In post #117, he's most worried about G55 for her fake vote idea then turning it back on Legate. For post #134, he says he's likely to vote Eonwe for being non-committal or Kit for her reaction to Lhuna. #221, he acknowledges there's a building case against me and then agrees with it. He states he'd prefer to vote Eonwe, but votes for me because I'm the better lynch option over G55.

Impression: I don't really agree with his reasons for suspecting Eonwe and Kit - they seem weak. As for his suspicion of me, there's nothing unusual in itself about Rune suspecting me...he always does. But the way he piggybacks on the case against me is suspicious. Plus, what happened to his concerns about G55? They seem to have disappeared unless I'm missing something.

More to come.

P.S. I'm just posting right now and haven't had time to read anything new since #339. And I probably won't read anything til morning.

[Brinniel]

Greenie: In post #135, she has concerns about the Hui/Lommy exchange. Her summary post is a bit non-committal, but I guess not too unusual at this stage. Post #178, she is wishy-washy about G55 in the Rikae exchange. In #206, she voices concerns about Mac's post on me feeling that his thought process is wolfy. She ends up voting him for this reason.

Impression: I'm not sure about Greenie. Yes, the timing of her vote made it a throwaway, but I don't know that this alone makes her suspicious. Greenie does tend to be someone who flies under my radar.

---

Kit: Post #85 was her jump on Lhuna. In #95, she thinks a Pitchwolf could pick Legate as an easy target and later states that she think there is a wolf among LGP. She dedicates post #220 to looking at my post - she doesn't like what she sees, but lays off. After reviewing G55, she votes Pitch.

Impression: Unlike others, I don't find her comments of Lhuna suspicious, just a bit aggressive. It is interesting that she spent a bunch of time concerned about my posts, then went along with Pitchwife. I was suspicious of her yesterDay because of her push for Pitch, which could be wolfy behavior should he be innocent. I am still wary of her.

---

Sally: Not much content to go off from yesterDay. The reason behind her vote was obvious.

Impression: Too little information to have an impression. Hopefully we'll hear more toDay.

---

Kath: Post #81 she provides a summary list that's a bit inconclusive. She votes G55 because she doesn't like how she slides the fake vote idea to Legate.

Impression: I noticed a lot of her posts talk about the players without providing actual opinions of them. I couldn't find where she suspected G55 earlier. She remains a mystery to me right now.

---

Ka: In post #194, she plays into Pitch's idea that a wolf could be among Rikae, Kit, Lottie, and me. She finds me playing it safe and then votes me.

Impression: I found her looking innocent early yesterDay, but less so now. Her reasoning for voting me is valid, but her timing is more suspicious.

---
Eonwe: Posts a non-committal summary in #153. In his vote post, he throws out several names of possible suspects but is unwilling to commit and votes Urwen instead.

Impression: Some pointed out that summary post and I agree it's wishy-washy, but not necessarily suspicious for Day 1. I don't like his vote, but again it's not necessarily suspicious.

---

Lhuna: She mentioned she hates Day 1 and then voted for herself.

Impression: Still too little to go on. Her self-vote doesn't point to anything.

---

Lalaith: Not much participation yesterDay, apparently due to time constraints. Hopefully we'll hear more today.

Impression: Not enough to have one. Though I will respond on her recent post disagreeing with my Night kill post - I see her point on Scenario 1, however I don't think a wolf would automatically suspect seer just because they are on a list. I could see the wolves suspecting a seer Rikae maybe if they thought they dreamt of G55 (considering they put her on the suspect list and their later exchange).

---

Urwen: Votes G55 out of spite then threatens to disappear toDay.

Impression: Don't like the vote, but I'm more inclined to think she's a confused ordo. If she does disappear, I'd rather not waste anymore time analyzing her behavior since she'd get modfired anyway.

---

I think that was everyone.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

After repeated experience of writing a post, fifty new posts coming while I write, then ending up with an endless scroll, I'm going to post one whole thought now and continue with more afterwards.

Ok, so I took out those who didn't vote for either G55/Brinn. 2 wagons that big had to have wolf involvement.

As noted already today, Steve's and Greenie's throw away votes came within the 30 minute mark. Looks of "not wanting to get their hands dirty." At the same time, can't tell if they're too suspicious without knowing Brinn's role.

Boro's starting remark "there must be Wolves among these big bandwagons" (while likely) and the fact he excluded the remaining votes forced me to look them up and that in turn prompted me to calculate.

It is *theoretically* possible that the Wolves are Lhuna, Boro, Shasta, Kitanna, Greenie and/or Eönwë (and/or Lalaith). And so in fact, there is rather a big chance that there is a Wolf among those, and to be honest, I am actually more convinced that there is at least one - or likely more than one.

Since I'm at it, I could just as well look at them.

Lhuna's self-vote would be a perfect cover. Perfect in the sense that she would do it regardless, so it has no objective impact as evidence. But if she was a Wolf, it'd be ideal way to keep her hands clean (no pun intended).

More interesting are those who came later. All of those came after the 30 min mark and came sort of in response to the appearing bandwagons. The beginning came from the discussion "G55 or Pitch" and actually several people leaned both ways and didn't want Brinniel. Some of those who originally took part in the debate (Hui, Lottie) later voted G55 over Pitchwife, already at the point when it was very late and it came to the race between the two.

Both Shasta and Kitanna voiced fairly reasonably backed suspicions based on the "Pitchwife goes on offense-defense" argument related to the whole trialogue.

Greenie's vote for Mac is the "safest" in the sense that it comes up with a new bandwagon when there are others already going. I actually still don't like it because I think it easily could be faked. But I would need more data to form a broader picture.

Eönwë is right in the same category with his single vote for Urwen. On second look, I have to backtrack on what I said in my previous post and say that it really looks throwaway, however, at the same time, I still think it looks rather like an innocent throwaway. Less than 15 minutes before end, a throwaway vote is a suspicious move, and not sure if an Eönwölf would do it.

That's some musing on those. Lalaith I see has appeared since. I hope we are going to have more input from her, including a vote; same goes for Lhuna.

Back to reading...

[A Little Green]

Okay, Rikae then. Several theories on why they were picked.

Lottie seems to think the wolves took Rikae out because they were a powerful semi-assumed innocent after their fight with G55.
Boro and Inzil seem to think the wolves can’t afford to pick someone just to frame an innocent, so there must have been another reason.
Brinn seems to think Rikae was picked to frame her, and Mac seems to think Rikae was picked to frame him.

More specifically:
Trying to put on my wolf gloves and mask, anytime people come out saying the kill was a "frame" to set up an innocent for an easy lynch, it pings (sorry Pitch ) my radar. I recall more than once of past experiences where we go through 3-4 day/night cycles without lynching a wolf. But the only deaths are ordos, and it winds up destroying the pack. The longer gifted stay in, the more they start to uncover, the more they're able to figure out and coordinate dreams/protections/hunts amongst themselves and eventually the wolfpack runs out of "unknown ordos" to kill. Bottom line is, every pack (maybe not) but purely on theory and experience you go for gifteds first. No matter the cost if it makes a fellow wolf look bad or not. I mean hell we have 5 wolves. So yes the "Brinn's being framed" is suspicious
This is a fair point. I don’t think the wolves can afford not to go for potential Gifteds.

But I already see people talking as if the bandwagon against Brinn is a sign of her innocence? No??? If the wolves were trying to orchestrate an innocent lynch yesterDay, it could have just as well been Gal, who they also knew wasn't one of them.
You are operating awfully close to the idea as if you somehow knew Brinn to be innocent. Objectively, the idea of Wolves keeping loud distracting player vs quiet one makes sense, but your whole theory stands on the idea that Brinn would have to be not one of them.
I agree with Lommy’s point above on how a bandwagon against Brinn doesn’t mean she is innocent, and Legate brings up an interesting point about Lottie seemingly assuming she is. If Brinn turns out to be innocent, this will merit a closer look. Boro later goes further and states that he is going to assume Brinn is a wolf. I assume the “people” who assume Brinn is innocent that Lommy is referring to are maybe Lottie and Huin? Also speaking of Huin there's this –
It seems pretty clear G55 brought up the no-vote/fake-vote idea specifically to derail the day. But Legate picking it up and running with it can't have been part of the plan (unless she knows him really well), which still inclines me against suspecting him. Pitch, though… I'm still not convinced by his switch of the blame for the idea from G55 to Legate. I'm not going to impart PitchWolf with supernatural Cobbler-spotting talents, but as I think I said yesterday, he could have been trying to move the focus specifically onto Legate, not off G55.
Why would a Pitchwolf want to move the focus onto Legate specifically, if not to move it away from a packmate or a suspected cobbler? What would be the motive? Huin also downplays the arguments against Brinn here:
Conclusions? Well, obviously I think the arguments against G55 are stronger (to say the least) than those against Brinn. They were also broadly agreed on, particularly the idea that something was up in the GLP, whereas the only agreement in the Brinn voters seems to have been 'she's quiet… too quiet', with other reasons added on at will to justify that unease.
He also explicitly voted to save Brinn yesterDay. Something going on here, though I’m starting to think it’s too open to be a wolf defending a packmate.

Then there’s Brinn’s scenarios on why Rikae was killed:
Scenario 1. The wolves thought Rikae was gifted. But if they though them the seer, then they know that they didn't dream of me. Really, people. Are some of you really suggesting that a wolf-version of me would be dumb enough to go after Rikae because I thought they were the seer? I don't know if any wolves would be so jumpy this early in the game. In a village of 20+, it would be very lucky indeed if the seer dreamt of a wolf on Night 1.

Scenario 2. Rikae's death was a way to frame me.

Scenario 3. Rikae looked more innocent after the exchange with G55, so they were an easy kill.

The problem is that all three of these are possibilities and there are probably more out there, which leads me to...

Scenario 4. The wolves love chaos.

There are so many reasons why the wolves could've chosen Rikae including confusing and distracting the village. If we spend too much time trying to theorize why they died, that takes away focus from the actual posting from YesterDay and toDay, which plays into the wolves' hands. That said, I am wary of anyone who will lean too much into focusing on the Night kill.
Alarm bells. 1 and 2 both connect the kill to Brinn herself. As others have pointed out, there might have been other reasons for suspecting Rikae is Gifted, or (as Mac demonstrated) other people who could have been “framed” by the kill. Additionally, I agree with Inzil and Boro that the wolves using a Night kill just to frame an innocent is unlikely. 3 is basically what Lottie suggested early on, and while not directly suspicious, also not very likely in my opinion. As for scenario 4, this is basically Brinn saying that we shouldn’t look at the Night kill because in her opinion it implicates her, and anyone who does look at it is suspicious. Under normal circumstances, I’d be crying “wolf!” just about now. But we also have Mac acting equally paranoid (and even weirder) about the Rikae kill.

Obviously Gala considered Rikae to be innocent. In fact, by the fairly spirited way she went after them, she likely thought they were not just innocent, but gifted. What set her off against them was an error in a comment about me. Maybe she thought Rikae was the seer, dreamt of wolf-me (No, I’m not a wolf, but she Gala doesn’t know that) and tried to get me lynched by exaggerating what little could be found that early into Day1? Now Rikae is dead. Did the wolves follow Gala’s judgement and thought them gifted? I don't see it, unless maaybe if Brinn is indeed a wolf and the way Rikae suspected her set them off. Not gonna put too many eggs into that basket, though.

Unless... I'm being framed. By the exact thinking above, a mewolf would have reason to think Rikae really is the seer. If the wolves are preparing my head for the chopping block, I have to raise my eyebrow at those who suddenly suspected me near the deadline, since this would very much play into their hands/paws. *coughgreeniecough*
I’m still operating from the premise that a Night kill purely to frame somebody isn’t worth it for the wolves at this point (especially since, as we’ve seen, this particular one apparently can “frame” either Brinn or Mac, depending on which one you ask :rolleyes:). But more to the point, that first paragraph? As Lommy pointed out, how would that even occur to you if you’re innocent? He goes on to elaborate on this later:

In her vote, Gala mentions other things, but following her posts, she very much started going after Rikae because they misrepresented something I said, thus exaggerating her suspicion of me. That's what everything spiraled out of control from. Gala must have thought Rikae was gifted, it makes no sense that she would go after them like that over that little reason if it was otherwise. A cobbler’s life isn’t worth much, but they tend to not go kamikaze this early without purpose.

Maybe she got hunter or ranger vibes from something, possible, but:
- it’s not unreasonable that seer-Rikae would pick me as their first dream.
- if you’re the seer and you know a wolf, what do you do? Keep quiet? Drop hints? Go all out and accuse? Try to subtly steer the village into lynching that wolf?
The way Rikae suspected me could fit the latter. Gala tried to associate herself with me several times, which makes me suspect that Gala thought so as well, a cobbler trying to reach out to who she thought was a wolf.

All of this was already on my mind during the Night and now Rikae is dead. Obviously, it’s a bit of a stretch for me to assume the wolves saw everything the same way. But here’s the thing - I got some fire late yesterDay from Greenie and a few. With a bit of a push, that case could gain momentum and get me lynched toDay - and an innocent lynched is a wolf not lynched.
So basically, his theory is that cobbler55 thought Rikae was a Seer who dreamed Mac is a wolf and that she tried to buddy up with Mac for this reason. This bit sounds plausible enough to me. But then Mac goes on to say that the wolves went after Rikae because if he was a wolf he would think Rikae was a possible Seer too, and the wolves want to frame him. I have a few problems with this. First, as discussed above, I don’t think the wolves can afford a Night kill just to frame somebody rather than going for potential Gifteds at this stage. Second, even if the wolves would kill just to frame somebody, he ignores the possibility that this might implicate someone other than himself. This is very close to how Brinn, too, is convinced that the kill was engineered just to frame her.

And lastly, Brinn addresses this herself:
Impressions: I was agreeing with his posts, right up until he started suspecting me. As for those suspicions, I'm not sure what to think - could be genuine or he could be helping to set me up. His theory toDay is a stretch - I just don't find it likely that the wolves would kill Rikae for that reason.
I’m not sure why Mac’s framing theory is any more of a stretch than Brinn’s. In fact, I think they are strikingly similar, and find it curious that Brinn doesn’t.

Conclusions? I’d be very surprised if both Mac and Brinn are innocent. But I also have a hard time seeing them as fellow wolves.


EDIT: x-ed with Legate

[A Little Green]

Eönwölf:D:D:D
This makes me hope he is indeed a wolf so we get to call him that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Continuing the "posting on the go".

To prove that I’m not crazy, or at least not that crazy.
(...)
In her vote, Gala mentions other things, but following her posts, she very much started going after Rikae because they misrepresented something I said, thus exaggerating her suspicion of me. That's what everything spiraled out of control from. Gala must have thought Rikae was gifted, it makes no sense that she would go after them like that over that little reason if it was otherwise. A cobbler’s life isn’t worth much, but they tend to not go kamikaze this early without purpose.

Maybe she got hunter or ranger vibes from something, possible, but:
- it’s not unreasonable that seer-Rikae would pick me as their first dream.
- if you’re the seer and you know a wolf, what do you do? Keep quiet? Drop hints? Go all out and accuse? Try to subtly steer the village into lynching that wolf?
The way Rikae suspected me could fit the latter. Gala tried to associate herself with me several times, which makes me suspect that Gala thought so as well, a cobbler trying to reach out to who she thought was a wolf.

I don't know. I now absolutely see where you are coming from, but in my opinion, it proves nothing.

How about this possibility? G55 saw Rikae making a mistake, rubbed her hands together and was like "let's cause some chaos. In the best case, the village will lynch someone innocent that gets caught in the inevitably flawed discussion that comes out of it, and even in the worst case, they will have wasted a Day bickering about nothing. As for myself, I can always back away by saying I realise that this was all just a mistake, because I know that it was."

Also, the "fake votes" debate was already going on by itself at that point, G55 was free to light another fire. The more, the merrier.

Seems to me her attitude was simple to create possible discussions in which Wolves could jump at people or innocents could misjudge people or whatever. Even if G55 wasn't sure whether Rikae was innocent or not, she could simply trust the WWs to sort it out.

As for her mentioning you - it may be nothing more and nothing less than wanting to drag more people into the debate: either you, because you already "showed interest", or to alert others that they should participate as well. Framing or not framing you she would leave for you to sort out - if you were a Wolf, you'd probably make sure you didn't get too muddled in this (which you didn't), if you weren't, then good riddance.

All in all, this is all very nice, but it has little merit for us at the moment, I think. On top of that, the chain of "G55 thought Rik was a Seer who dreamed me innocent" is a bit too many "ifs", kinda like "...because my mother's brother's cousin's former roommate once dreamed of my role."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Incidentally, the "fake votes" from yesterDay faded absolutely into obscurity. True, less than half of the people participated in them. But still. Wondering if anything can be gleaned from them? For now, listing them for referrence, as every bit of knowledge helps, right:

FAKE VOTES

Shasta: Lommy (according to Boro's classification - Shasta said it very early in the Day, and it went ("I *were* to vote right now, it would be for Lommy ;) " So not sure how seriously should we "count" it.)
Boro: Legate
(both rather early in the Day)
G55: Rikae (at the heat of the debate)
Rikae: Brinniel (later real vote too)
Lommy: Boro (later voted G55)
Legate: Kitanna (my prime suspect at the time)
Loslote: G55 (followed real vote later)
Mac: Mac ("Fake votes, eh? Chew on that! :p ")
Huinesoron: Lommy (she was his top suspect until he had to pick among the bandwagons)

I may have missed something (some are marked ++, some are marked +-. I think in the future, IF we do this, we could do the "+-", which would make it easier).

In case we wanted to do this also in the future, I think we could set a DL for it earlier. I am not sure if it's helpful, but it may, after all, be a bit more helpful the further we go.

Except I don't know if we want to do this toDay of all Days when the CobblerThread can act based on that.

Continuing to read...

[Thinlómien]

I think I am gonna take a page out of Pervinca's book and 'disappear'. Uh, does this mean you want to quit the game? I understand it might be a little overwhelming for someone who hasn't played it before, but you can still consider. (I wanted to say "We don't bite" but err... some of us might, it's sort of the point. ;))

The added value is that either the Wolves are really heartless with sick sense of humour (after the fight the two had, sending them in together), or (I'd rather hope, because FIVE people with zero empathy?!?) perhaps nice Wolves who hope that on the QT, G55 might apologise to Rikae and Rikae might forgive her and then they can share a... drink of... desinfectant, probably.
I don't know about you guys, but I think determining who joins Cobb55 in the QT shouldn't be a main factor for a wolf kill.Ditto. Also, Rikae and Galadriel55 are two adult people who had an argument during a game where such things happen regularly, not to mention when one of their role was to deliberately sow chaos. The wolves, nor anyone else of us, are not required to nanny the dead. Come on.

Excluding Rikae's vote, Pitch's vote for Brinn, looks the most innocent to me. It came before the really either "wagon" developed.And why would a vote look innocent simply if it's early? A wolf might want to get the voting business out of hand and slip out of scrutiny early too.

sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.Wait, what? You say that "everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim" (I agree), then you still go on to say that this still depends on Brinn's role? I mean, unless you have a good reason to think a ranger claimant is lying, you do vote to save them regardless your own role and that of the other lynch options? Even if you are a wolf because it's "what an innocent would do" + as solid reason to vote someone as they come. I don't think Sally's vote says anything about her role, or Brinn's. Except Sally probably isn't the seer who dreamt that Brinn is the real ranger. ;) (Addendum: I see Greenie basically said this much too.)

Paranoid!Mac is back and even more paranoid. Is he trying to look so paranoid that we will let him off the hook? I'm not buying his "perhaps the wolves framed me" theory. Setting someone up might be a nice bonus for the wolves at this point, but I very much doubt that was the main reason for them going for Rikae.

Not sure either what to make of Boro's conviction that innocent!Rikae laid a trap and Brinnwolf walked into it. I need to reread Rikae's posts to see if it really looks like that. While I agree with Boro that the wolves are unlikely to be motivated by the want to frame someone (as I said about Mac), I think it's somewhat dangerous to operate on the basis that you know who the wolves suspected to be a seer. I mean, Mac seems to be convinced it's him not Brinn that the kill points at. Personally I am unsure because I haven't still reread Rikae's posts. But perhaps Boro or Mac has been reading them more carefully overNight. :Merisu:

Scenario 1. The wolves thought Rikae was gifted. But if they though them the seer, then they know that they didn't dream of me. Really, people. Are some of you really suggesting that a wolf-version of me would be dumb enough to go after Rikae because I thought they were the seer? I don't know if any wolves would be so jumpy this early in the game. In a village of 20+, it would be very lucky indeed if the seer dreamt of a wolf on Night 1.Yes, but it's also entirely possible. I see you're arguing you'd be more chill and take the risk of not killing them if you were a wolf (fair enough), but perhaps you disagreed with your packmates and you weren't the one to send in the kill? Or perhaps you didn't realise how easily the death would be traced back to you?

Scenario 2. Rikae's death was a way to frame me.Here we go again.

First, about my vote: there's not much more to say other than that I was on very limited time and had only managed to catch up to post #212, which was the most recent post when I arrived (as mentioned in my post). I did do a refresh just to see votes before making my final choice, but at that point we were still on page 6 and no-one had more than 2 votes so it was all still open (and I really didn't have time to look to see if I'd x-posted or not). Fair enough.

One thing I'm wondering about is the very very late timing of the G55 reveal. The options, at increasing levels of bluff, seem to be:

She was trying to get an innocent Brinn killed.
She wanted us to believe (1), but actually thought Brinn was an Infector and knew it was too late.
She wanted us to believe (2), but actually thought that Brinn was innocent and wants us to suspect her by assuming (2) is true.I think she just wanted to 1) save herself possibly (and in doing so, sacrifice Brinn which just says she didn't think her a particularly likely wolf), 2) possibly flush out the real ranger, and 3) cause chaos. Why not do it earlier? Maybe she didn't think she'd actually get lynched, or it didn't cross her mind until then. I wouldn't spend too much time on this.


edit: xed with 2x greenie and 2x legate

[Thinlómien]

Conclusions? I’d be very surprised if both Mac and Brinn are innocent. But I also have a hard time seeing them as fellow wolves.I see Greenie and I are very much on the same track re: Rikae-Mac-Brinn, and I agree with this conclusion too.

As for Legate returning to the fake votes, I want to scream NOT AGAIN, but then again, perhaps something interesting can be gleaned from them, if one has the stomach...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Rikae does love traps. Rikae was pretty clear yesterday in that they did intentionally set a trap and suspected Brinn fell into it. Turns out Rikae had no special knowledge, but trying to put myself back into Day 1, the wolves wouldn't have known Rikae was an ordo. Brinnwolf fell into Rikae's trap and overall with Rikae's posting yesterday felt Rikae was a gifted, or in the least Rikae was going to be an assumed innocent.
What makes you think it was "clear" that Rikae "set a trap"? Feel like I am missing something that you (and Mac??) consider obvious.
On Rikae's death...

Scenario 1. The wolves thought Rikae was gifted. But if they though them the seer, then they know that they didn't dream of me. Really, people. Are some of you really suggesting that a wolf-version of me would be dumb enough to go after Rikae because I thought they were the seer? :rolleyes: I don't know if any wolves would be so jumpy this early in the game. In a village of 20+, it would be very lucky indeed if the seer dreamt of a wolf on Night 1.
Well of all people, I can imagine you doing it exactly with this sort of double-trick idea.


Scenario 3. Rikae looked more innocent after the exchange with G55, so they were an easy kill.

My personal belief is 3. But even if it was not that, it likely was a part of the reasoning.

My first thought on looking at the way the lynching went - we can assume that G55-cobbler did not think Brinn was a wolf or she wouldn't have tried to save herself?
G55 didn't know anything, so I think she'd just take the risk. It wasn't like there was much she could do. And in the case if Brinn turned out to be innocent, then self-voting would be stupid in retrospect.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wait, what? You say that "everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim" (I agree), then you still go on to say that this still depends on Brinn's role? I mean, unless you have a good reason to think a ranger claimant is lying, you do vote to save them regardless your own role and that of the other lynch options? Even if you are a wolf because it's "what an innocent would do" + as solid reason to vote someone as they come. I don't think Sally's vote says anything about her role, or Brinn's. Except Sally probably isn't the seer who dreamt that Brinn is the real ranger. ;) (Addendum: I see Greenie basically said this much too.)
Indeed. Can you explain that, Boro?

As for Legate returning to the fake votes, I want to scream NOT AGAIN, but then again, perhaps something interesting can be gleaned from them, if one has the stomach...

Well, I just thought, after all the hassle that thing caused, it would be absolutely the silver lining of it all if we just forgot they ever existed and let them rot there...

[Huinesoron]

#-1:

Folks, can we please refer to Rikae as they/them/their? Thank you.

Thank you, Pitch, and sorry, Rikae. I've gone back and edited my first post toDay (solely for pronouns and verb-agreement); will look at my yesterDay's posts later.

#-1.5:

Or is that -0.5? Anyway, while doing that I found that I'd highlighted Rikae as the first person with what seemed to me a solid reason for voting Brinn. So that makes sense.

#0: There's a medium chance I may be suddenly unavailable starting ~2 hours before DL. Since my alternatives are 'vote early and maybe get to be here anyway' and 'don't vote early and maybe miss the vote', and to maintain full transparency, what I'm going to do is state my 'prospective early vote' around 2h15 before DL, and write up (but not post) a quick post making it official. If I can't read or write anything, I should at least be able to snatch five seconds to send that vote through. If I can spend actual time on the thread, I'll just scrap the stored post and take the last couple of hours into account. It's not great, but it's the best compromise I can find, and I figured I'd say well in advance.

Okay, on to the overview. Before I'm accused of being "helpful" again (Is there a term for the opposite of "damning with faint praise"? I feel like I'm being praised with faint damning!), I will say that these 'look at everything' posts are actually just my notes while catching up; I share them in the hopes that a) if my suspicions hold up we can catch the wolves and b) other people might spot things I missed.

I'm seeing a very quick division of the "why Rikae" discussion into two sides: Zil in #287 blames her place on the Brinn-wagon, and Lottie in #288 blames her fight with G55. Both of these seem reasonable (after all, if I'm right about Brinn's innocence, I'm sure the wolves would love to make her look guilty and get her killed!), but the fact that they come so close together makes me suspicious. Could this be a pre-planned exchange between two wolves? If they actually killed Rikae for a third reason, framing the discussion this way could keep people from noticing.

… actually, as Boro points out in #293, Zil and Lottie were the two people Rikae called out as suspicious for being on the "anti-Brinn wagon". So that could be their reason right there. (Lommy mentions the Wolves seeing Rikae as a possible Seer in #298; I'd say that confirms she's not in a Zil-Lottie pack, at least).

This, I feel, is a distorting abbreviation of what I actually said. I said that there was probably a wolf among those suspecting me (i.e. Rikae, Brinn, Kit & Lottie), but didn't suspect Rikae specifically (rather the contrary). The paradox was I was getting non-wolvish vibes from both of them. I admit my post was pretty condensed, but was I so unclear or are you deliberately misreading me?

Ah, right. My mistake was reading 'there's probably a wolf here' as 'I think any of these could be a wolf, but don't know which'; I didn't connect the fact that the later part was you whittling down that list. I get it now.

#309 is a worrying post from Legate: he manages to imply lynching a wolf would be a bad thing, and straight up say that lynching the cobbler was 'unfortunate'. I've leaned innocent on Legate from the start, but I think that was mostly from the GLP; given that that was being stirred up by a cobbler, I think I'm going to have to consciously shake my impressions from it free.

Of the people who were "on the table" when I voted, I thought Pitchwife looked the most innocent, but I didn't have much of a preference as for Gal vs Brinn. I suspected both of them a little, but neither was my top suspect. (Gal looked maybe more suspicious to me than Brinn, but more likely of the two to turn out to be a mere cobbler if evil.) Since the last few votes (looking at the tally, I think Rune and Ka's for Brinn), it clarified the overall situation to me that it's likely to be Gal vs Brinn in the end and I was okay with either. So I thought I might as well cast my vote then (and not later) and decided to vote Gal whose bandwagon seemed to me to have less momentum. What I meant by "let's make this more interesting" was "let's see if anyone rushes to save Gal, or joins the bandwagon after me to save Brinn". Adding a new vote candidate 15min before the dl when 2/3 of the village had already voted would have been the opposite of making it interesting…

Hmm. I think my issue with this is that keeping the vote evenly split didn't make things interesting. I can see how it kept things interesting, but 'make' sounds like you laying the groundwork to claim credit for whatever the result turned out to be.

#314 & #315: More back-to-back Lottie/Zil posts, this time backing each other up in their suspicion of Rune, but in a "he's not suspicious, just suspicious" way.

Huinesoron's first post makes me wonder, because on the one hand, the way he's describing his Nightly activity as scribbling this post - which he clearly did - makes it more likely to be an innocent's endeavour; but on the other hand, I am just returning to my misgivings yesterDay and wondering whether he's exactly not being "helpful" here (perhaps WW with enought time on his hands, can imagine) plus subtly steering the discussion back to the "threesome" - and perhaps to Pitch, his yesterDay's suspect. If Pitch was innocent, it would be a safe way for a Wolf to keep on track with consistent suspicion onto a Day that starts the same way as the previous one: with the Village having nearly zero info.

What did I say? I'm "helpful"! :D I think a fair reading of my post will show that I wasn't specifically focussing on Pitch; it was just that he kept coming up! If I'd spent a chunk of the post trying to re-justify PitchWolf-GalaWolf as PitchWolf-Cobbler55, I could see this argument (as a wolf framing an innocent wouldn't have new evidence to go on). But other than a one-line mention that it didn't straight-up clear him, I think everything I said about him was from later, unrelated posts.

Ultimately, while I try to take a blank slate approach with these long posts, my suspicions don't go away just because it's a new Day. That sounds like what I'd expect from a wolf.

… in that spirit, then, and given my worries a few posts up about Legate, I'm going to set aside my innocent-lean on him and blank-slate this post (#318). And… overall, it looks like something from an innocent, not a wolf. I don't agree with his suspicions of Brinn, but it reads like he honestly has them (and as he says to Lottie, even 'don't suspect' isn't the same as 'know is innocent'). His multiple digressions onto wolf psychology could be wolfish distraction, but we've seen enough of this from all corners that I think it's just the equivalent of Day 1 banter.

Boro's #324 has more of the 'Brinn is very wolfy (but for no particular reason)' feel I've been getting from so many people. This is why I don't trust the Brinn-wagon: it feels like somewhere early on in it, a wolf managed to shape people's perception of Brinn so that everyone started seeing her as sketchy but without solid reasons. Pitch's 'just asking questions' posts (I think I mentioned 2 or 3 in my earlier post) seem like a prime candidate for the culprit.

Interestingly, Boro also notes a Zil/Lottie suspect pair. And is then followed up by Zil yet again (see #290) discussing suspicions he had which were proved wrong. Not analysing them any further, just talking about "wolves" we know aren't.

#327 gives me pause, because of the reminder that Lottie was the person whose suspicions I most agreed with on Day 1. If she's a wolf, then does it follow that I'm straight up wrong about PitchWolf? Maybe.

My main problem is that Lottie doesn't seem wolfish to me in isolation, just in her interactions with Zil. So I don't really know what to make of that.

(I'm closing on 2 hours into this and my brain is glazing over.)

I'm in two minds on Kitanna's study of the low-posters. On the one hand, spotting quiet wolves is a worthwhile endeavour, particularly since they had G55 vs Rikae to hide under yesterday. On the other hand, their lack of posts surely makes it unlikely that you're going to find much evidence? And yet somehow Urwen, who has not really engaged with the thread at all, gets a full screen of commentary.

Mac in #331 does some very nice looking analysis of… why G55 might have gone after Rikae. I'm not sure why this matters? He can't be leading into a 'maybe the wolves thought the same way', because his theory rests on G55 thinking he was a wolf. So… I'm confused.

Boro repeats the Brinn-wolf theory, leaning on the 'trap' comment (which was Rikae's catch, and we know Rikae is innocent). Which… yes, it's still a plausible argument, but it was never the main one used yesterDay. I think any discussion of Brinn's near-lynch which doesn't take that into account comes worryingly close to attempting to hide it. (And Boro didn't vote Brinn yesterday…)

Brinn and Eonwe both pop in with lists of possibilities, which both then use to say 'there's so many options we can't tell, so why think about it?'. Unlike Lommy yesterDay, I don't think I can look at this and think 'one is innocent, one is guilty'. Quiet!Eonwe still worries me a bit, but I'll call this one a wash. I'm going to note his Boro-Pitch theory here to look back on; I don't think I'm following it correctly right now, so I want to read it again later.



PS: Huin... I now have Cobbler55 stuck in my head to the tune of Mambo No.5. Why did you do this to me??

Nooooooooooooooo!

:D

"A little bit of Werewolf on the Downs
A little bit of Cobbler makes me frown…"

(Got to admit, I didn't know those lyrics went to that song. I've learned something today!)

THE Ka's analysis of Rikae's 'wolf-bait'... something that jumped out at me was this quote from Pitch replying to me(?):

I don't think I've seen that many people suspecting Mac to a significant amount (Rikae, of course, myself a bit, who else?), more like saying he's creepy & scary no matter what. Anyway, it's always good for a wolf pack not to get all entangled in the same skirmish but spread themselves out in several combat zones, so to speak.

Coupled with this from THE Ka:

This one… I’ve been trying to read for awhile now. I’ve even agreed with them on occasion when they’ve given small isolated replies.

I think that's exactly what I feel. When Pitch replies to me, addressing a concern I raised, I nod along and go 'yes, good point, I understand now'. But when he's not specifically trying to answer someone's suspicions of him, he just sets off so many alarm bells.

I've just refreshed and seen Legate's #345 'endless scroll' comment, and I'm feeling the same myself. But there's only five posts to go…

Greenie draws out what I was thinking about 'all the options' from Brinn by saying it looks like she's saying we should ignore the night-kill as implicating her. This is the sort of reasoning I'd expect to see on a legitimate Brinn analysis; I stand by my statement that most of yesterDay's logic was just 'she feels bad' stated in different words.

Lommy is right that Boro's 'the first vote on Brinn is least suspicious' line is suspicious in itself; it's not like there wasn't a lot of suspicion on Brinn at the time! And… I'm up to date!

Now to remember what I've said over the last, uh, three hours… :O

Okay. Pitch and Lommy were my main suspicions yesterday; they don't look as bad (so far) today, but neither am I totally comfortable with them. Zil looks dodgy, Lottie looks dodgy but only when paired with Zil. Boro is giving me bad vibes but nothing I can articulate, and I don't like Mac's 'what if everyone thinks I'm a wolf' theory much at all.

On the innocent side: Greenie has does good work on (actual reasons) why Brinn might be suspicious, and Legate is still striking me as innocent. Brinn herself… I agree that the evidence is piling up, but I still think the Brinn-wagon was suspicious as all get-out, so can't see how she could be a wolf.

Hopefully I can stay current and non-wall-of-text-y for the next few hours.

hS

[Thinlómien]

I agree the list "Pitchwife, G55, Macalaure" was a bait, but I don't recall much coming out of it. Furthermore, I can't see it looking as a seer dream by itself as they couldn't have had three dreams by this point and there's nothing to differentiate between the trio.

First "substantial" post #121: voices not particularly convinced suspicion of Gal, Pitch and Mac. Again, no seer vibes.

Vaguely defends Legate. I can kinda see the grounds for Mac's paranoia based on #128 because Rikae seems to be operating with rather "how do I prove my suspicion of Mac is correct?" rather than "is my suspicion of Mac correct?" But it's still pretty far-fetched.

#138 laconically puts Brinn in the spotlight (for saying "I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap.") which... sounds like an innocent catching a suspicious whiff they later fixated on, but it could of course have been interpreted as a seer finally finding a legit reason for voicing suspicion for their wolfy dream.

#148 it continues:
Anyway, right now my fake vote would go to:

++Brinniel

For immediately repeating 2 of 3 names from my list as suspicions, and then backtracking explicitly to avoid getting caught in a trap right after I explained to G55 that my post was intended as a wolf trap. That was ostensibly a reply to Mac saying the group was mostly innocent, but the coincidence is just too much for me to ignore.

I know, these are the kinds of things a wolf would definitely make sure not to do, right? Right. So much so, it could be used as cover. And an innocent doing them coincidentally? That feels like a bigger stretch to me.

Mac is sort of out of Rikae's main suspects by now. He was really like a side note on Rikae's suspicions. So why is he so fixated on that?

Rikae's real suspicions seemed to be divided between Gal and Brinn. And I don't think the Brinn suspicion looks very seerish; on the contrary, it builds up based on the events on the game thread.

Thoughts?

Based on this, I'd say Mac looks much worse than Brinn. If Brinn is a wolf, I very much doubt Rikae looked the most seerish of all the villagers (remember there are four more wolves who could have had seerish accusations against them).

If Brinn is innocent, then I think Boro might look more innocent too (for his weird presumption that she's guilty, would a wolf think that way?) and Lottie looks worse (as has been pointed out, she sounded like she knew Brinn was innocent).

While Mac's conviction of it looking like Rikae-seer dreamt of him looks very paranoid wolfy. I'm unwilling to go very meta on this, but it all makes even more sense to me with Rikae/Mac being a RL couple and with them having been unhappy being on different sides in ww before. It's not a reason enough alone to incriminate Mac, but I think wolf!Mac would like to kill innocent!Rikae early on even if they didn't look particularly gifted. Of course, there would probably have to be other reasons for picking Rikae to convince his packmates it's the best choice.

Also? I think Rikae's death makes Legate look a little more innocent. He was the only one they consistently talked of as an innocent (including mild defense of him) and that alone might have been enough to ping the wolves' seer radar if neither Brinn nor Mac is a wolf.

I still would kinda like to lynch Brinn because her role would shed light on others' :p but I'm leaning towards lynching Mac as the best option toDay.


edit: xed with Legate and Hui and no time to read or reply right now

[Kath]

That was a crazy end to Day 1. After talk of fake votes we then end up with a fake reveal! At least the village might be quieter with the Cobbler gone, but I dread to think how many QT posts there will end up being ...

As to why Rikae for the Night kill, I would assume the wolves were gunning for someone they thought might be the Seer. It would seem foolish for them not to always be aiming for a Gifted. Trying to set up frame jobs is all well and good in theory but their aim surely has to be to get rid of the greatest danger towards them.

Just going through yesterDay's votes. Have skimmed toDay but not read properly so sorry if things have already been mentioned/answered.

YesterDay's vote tally - I've put known roles in bold in the votes themselves, otherwise I've bolded as normal when talking about it:
Lhuna -> Lhuna

Rikae -> Brinniel (For immediately repeating 2 of 3 names from my list as suspicions, and then backtracking explicitly to avoid getting caught in a trap right after I explained to G55 that my post was intended as a wolf trap.) ~ Rikae

So, just putting this here because I think this could be important later. This Brinn-wagon everyone's talking about is two votes at this point, mine and Pitch's.

And the people who expressed concern about it are Huey, Lottie and Inzil, in that order (let me know if I missed someone).

Now, I found Pitch suspicious from the beginning, although just for vibes really, and Brinn could have started looking like a convenient vote. On the other hand, three people pushing back on a wagon for coming out of nowhere after two reasoned votes (by day 1 standards) is odd, too, especially if Brinn turns out wolfish or the trolley is redirected toward an innocent. Lottie's and Inzil's positions in the anti-Brinnwagon-wagon are, that is - Huey's is pretty bold.

A lot of Rikae's posts are understandably largely debate with G55, but this one seems to put forward most of their opinions from the Day. They are right about the supposed Brinn-wagon, other Brinn voters don't appear until a while later. Six other votes were cast before THE Ka, Rune, Legate and sally then also vote for Brinn. They mention Inzil and Lottie's votes being suspiciously placed in terms of going against a Brinn-wagon, but actually they were also after Shasta and Kitanna had just made it 3 votes for Pitch as opposed to 2 votes for Brinn, so they had also had the same effect.

G55 -> Rikae

Boro -> Pitchwife

Urwen -> G55

Pitchwife -> Brinniel 2

Kath -> G55 2

Shasta -> Pitchwife 2 (I'm jerking the reins a bit here) ~ Shasta

I'd be interested to know a bit more about this vote, Shasta. This vote created a three way tie at the time between Pitch, G55 and Brinn. It's certainly consistent with his earlier suspicions, I just wonder why Pitch over Brinn at this point, especially with the comment at the point of vote as well.

Of those with votes, I won't vote for Rikae, could vote for Brinn or Pitch, and probably won't be voting for G55 unless it's to save someone I think is innocent.

From here, the cross posting of votes makes things difficult. The next vote I would normally consider more carefully, as it was the first to put anyone up to three votes, but it was cross-posted and it isn't clear with how many previous posts.

Kitanna -> Pitchwife 3

Inzil -> G55 3

Same issue - this was cross posted. So Inzil didn't know Kit had made it 3 for Pitch at the time he made it 3 for G55. So really, this is the vote that technically first took someone into the lead for the lynch.

There's no one else I would want at this point, and it could say a lot about Legate, Pitch, and Rikae.
I'd like to know what he now thinks this says about Legate and Pitch, especially in relation to knowing Rikae's role now.

Lottie -> G55 4

Not a cross posted vote and so knows this vote puts G55 into prime position for the lynch.

I think this lynch gives us the most information going forward, and I would be very surprised if she turns out to be innocent.

She earlier agreed with Kitanna about the G-L-P trio looking wolfy.

I've been going back and forth on who I think looks most wolf-like of those three, too. I tend to be more suspicious of G55 and Pitch at first glance, but I've had a very hard time getting a good feel on Legate.

Pitch brings up one of G55's first posts, which has been commented on before, and throws a bit of suspicion her way. This looks to me like Pitch doesn't want to be tied to G55 or seen as defending her, and it makes me more likely to believe Huin's hypothesis that they might both be wolves.

Gets drawn into the G55/Rikae stuff, and also doesn't like that G55 says Kitanna seems tense. Continues to feel G55 and Pitch may be a wolf pair.

If we were doing the bonus vote, I would definitely be voting for G55 at this point.

Ok, so this all seems very consistent and I would really now like to know what she thinks about Pitch given G55 turned out to be a Cobbler and not a wolf. Also, as I was reading through, both her own posts and posts about her seem to somehow make her and Kitanna a pair, I guess from when she followed on the G-L-P idea from Kitanna.

Greenie -> Macalaure

Cross posted with the previous 4 votes. So at this point, Greenie thought Brinn and G55 had 2, Rikae, Pitch and Lhuna had one. An interesting point at which to throw in a new name. It's for coming up with an argument against Brinn sort of on the spot and then backdating said argument to an earlier post, I think. It's interesting coming after her earlier post:

I still think Brinn looks sketchy, and I agree with Mac's points about her, but at the same time Mac's post about her makes me really uneasy.

So one post from Mac ended up changing her from Brinn (who had 2 votes at this point) to Mac. And actually, she kind of agreed with Mac about Brinn's suspicious post: Still, this is the fishiest thing I’ve seen so far so definitely merits a reread.

So is the suspicion of Mac because he's almost gone on the same reasoning but his seems contrived opposed to hers? It's a less interesting placement for a new name on the list than it could have been due to the cross posting but still was the only other new name besides Urwen.

THE Ka -> Brinniel 3

Ok, not a cross posted vote so knows G55 is already on 4. She seemed to be debating between Brinn and Lottie.

Between Brinn and Loslote, Brinn is playing far safer in their submarine by just throwing a ‘I have a hunch’ dart at Zil and following the G55-Rikae debate with mild defense of the Day 1 blues. That’s safe and yes, even villagers could take up that tactic, but this consistently? Hrrm.

Between the two, only Loslote has when come under fire participated in giving a reason why at least for their support for either side in either debate, while Brinn so far as I’ve caught up, has shied away consistently. It makes me all the more suspicious Brinn is playing it entirely too safe out of the two.

So she had pretty much settled on Brinn as a vote, but it also would have been a strange time to put Lottie into the mix anyway.

Eönwë -> Urwen

I don't like this vote, just as I didn't like Urwen's in the first place. He talks about Zil, Brinn and Lommy all being suspicious, and then plumps for someone totally unrelated. 13 votes had been cast with 8 remaining at this point. No one liked Urwen's vote, but did Eonwe really think this was going somewhere?

Rune -> Brinniel 4

Rune said this was cross posted with everyone from 244. I would like to know if that includes 244 because that was Kit's vote for Brinn. Is Rune pushing up Brinn to tie with G55 here or did he not know that?

Lommy -> G55 5

No cross voting so knew she was putting G55 into the lead and adds the comment:

Let's make this more interesting then

Which is indeed interesting ... I would very much like to know what she was thinking with this.

Hui -> G55 6

Hui clearly stated he wanted to avoid Brinn getting lynched and so chose G55 because she had the higher vote tally. It's a bold statement to make at a point where no roles were known. What made him think Brinn was definitely worth saving?

Legate -> Brinniel 5

Out of the options, which by now are realistically Brinn, G55, Pitch - definitely Brinn. Earlier thought Pitch might be Cobbler and thought G55 was playing in her usual style. Kitanna would have been his fake vote. By the time it got to real voting, this would have been a real throwaway so not going with it does make sense. Brinn is the highest up in his suspicions list so this vote does seem logical.

Mac -> Brinniel 6

Not a cross post, knows he's tying Brinn, knows this doesn't mean she's the lynch.

Brinn -> G55 7

Little to read from 'I have to save myself'. An innocent knows they're an innocent, doesn't know what G55 is, has to save themselves. A wolf knows they're guilty, knows G55 is an innocent, has to save themselves!

Sally -> Brinniel 7

This was the only vote after the reveal and again little to read from it. An innocent would be desperate to save the Ranger, a wolf would be desperate to be seen that they were trying to save the Ranger.

Lalaith - no vote

Lal, in the interests of the fact that the Day could have ended really differently, who would you have voted for there? I know it's with hindsight, but would still be interesting!

[Huinesoron]

I still would kinda like to lynch Brinn because her role would shed light on others' :p but I'm leaning towards lynching Mac as the best option toDay.

I would concur that Mac has been the most obviously suspicious toDay, but I also remember I thought he seemed innocent yesterDay. Will have to check why that was.

Okay, looks like I said it in #93, that the suspicion of him seemed unsupported. But... that suspicion mostly came from Rikae (innocent) and Legate (I lean innocent). So I'm going to try and put that aside.

In which case, his taking my "I still think he looks innocent, why are you saying otherwise?" in #115 and trying to turn it into an implication that I thought he was guilty is looking at least slightly suspect. I can see the shape of his argument - but like his "the wolves thought G55 thought Rikae thought" thing, it's got a spirally feeling to it that could be a wolf just stringing things together to make something stick.

hS

[Lalaith]

If a wolf was defending themselves, they’d of made a script or perhaps several to accommodate for this. You could ask a wolf trying to hide to explain themselves and you’ll get a lot of words, very direct, but not entirely what you asked. Another is the ‘duping delight’ of WW, usually the confident little glimmer in responses ‘you can ask/vote however you want’ or ‘it’s whatever you make of it’, which puts the blame of ‘mean interrogator’ on who’s pressing for an explanation.
This was The Ka..
I don't agree. A wolf does this, a wolf does that...as all of us who have done this before will know, a wolf can do all kinds of things and there are lots of different wolf styles.

YesterDay I said I thought wolves might pick fights with each other. I also think that with five wolves they could afford to throw one of their number under a bus if the mood took them. I've seen them do that, too.
One thing all wolves do have in common however is superior knowledge. A wolf knows enough to be able to judge their voting well, look good and not draw attention to themselves, particularly in the day 1 voting when no-one else knows anything much. And they will also be able to subsequently pick on hapless ordos for 'odd' voting, bandwaggoning etc.
I speak from bitter experience here btw, in the last WW I played, I was stitched up like a kipper by the wolves who framed me for some apparently suspicious Day 1 voting.
From all of this I am less inclined to suspect Eonwe, incidently.

[Lalaith]

Lalaith - no vote

Lal, in the interests of the fact that the Day could have ended really differently, who would you have voted for there? I know it's with hindsight, but would still be interesting!
This from Kath.
Good - and fair - question! It would have depended on the time I arrived. If I had arrived just before deadline, as opposed to just after :rolleyes:, I would have done exactly what Sally did, panicked and tried to save "the Ranger".
An earlier, more measured vote? - As previously stated, Legate and Boro were the ones worrying/scaring me yesterDay so probably one of them. Whereupon I would probably have been accused of spreading the vote in a suspicious way :rolleyes:

Generally I am better at spotting innocents than wolves so votes are always a trial to me!

[Kitanna]

Now, to business:

One thing I'm wondering about is the very very late timing of the G55 reveal. The options, at increasing levels of bluff, seem to be:
[LIST=1]
She was trying to get an innocent Brinn killed.
She wanted us to believe (1), but actually thought Brinn was an Infector and knew it was too late.
She wanted us to believe (2), but actually thought that Brinn was innocent and wants us to suspect her by assuming (2) is true.

Since she was the cobbler I'd say the chances of her trying to get an innocent Brinn killed are small. She would have no knowledge if Brinn was guilty or innocent except her own read on the situation. Her fake reveal seems more like a little "save myself for another day" and a little bit "sow some last minute discord if I'm to die."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Rune said this was cross posted with everyone from 244. I would like to know if that includes 244 because that was Kit's vote for Brinn. Is Rune pushing up Brinn to tie with G55 here or did he not know that?


I believe I was aware of post 244 prior to starting typing. However when I cast my vote I was not aware of the exact number of votes for each person. I hope that answers your question.

[Inziladun]

Rikae does love traps. Rikae was pretty clear yesterday in that they did intentionally set a trap and suspected Brinn fell into it. Turns out Rikae had no special knowledge, but trying to put myself back into Day 1, the wolves wouldn't have known Rikae was an ordo. Brinnwolf fell into Rikae's trap and overall with Rikae's posting yesterday felt Rikae was a gifted, or in the least Rikae was going to be an assumed innocent.

I didn't see the "trap" at the time. Players of both alignments throw out things like "A., B., and C. look the worst right now".
I don't see Rikae being an "assumed innocent" had they still been here. At least not to me.

As to why Rikae for the Night kill, I would assume the wolves were gunning for someone they thought might be the Seer. It would seem foolish for them not to always be aiming for a Gifted. Trying to set up frame jobs is all well and good in theory but their aim surely has to be to get rid of the greatest danger towards them.

That still seems the most likely reason to me.

-> G55 3

Same issue - this was cross posted. So Inzil didn't know Kit had made it 3 for Pitch at the time he made it 3 for G55. So really, this is the vote that technically first took someone into the lead for the lynch.


I'd like to know what he now thinks this says about Legate and Pitch, especially in relation to knowing Rikae's role now.


I'm not sure about Legate. Pitch looks rather opportunistic if Brinn is innocent.

[Boromir88]

If you're gonna stick with that, then you're wasting your Day. I see a lot of theories from you on who is suspicious based on the assumption that I'm wolf, but I am not aware of the reason why you suspect I am one in the first place.

My reasons were stated:
I should have started the day with this, but just to put it out here now, My predominant suspicion coming into the day is Brinn's a wolf. If the DL was NOW, I'd vote Brinn. Based on the voting yesterday and Rikae's death.


After you had acquired 2 votes (Rikae and Pitch) there was a spring of a handful of people saying they didn't want a bandwagon lynch of you.
Rikae Post 245


So, just putting this here because I think this could be important later. This Brinn-wagon everyone's talking about is two votes at this point, mine and Pitch's.

And the people who expressed concern about it are Huey, Lottie and Inzil, in that order (let me know if I missed someone).

Now, I found Pitch suspicious from the beginning, although just for vibes really, and Brinn could have started looking like a convenient vote. On the other hand, three people pushing back on a wagon for coming out of nowhere after two reasoned votes (by day 1 standards) is odd, too, especially if Brinn turns out wolfish or the trolley is redirected toward an innocent. Lottie's and Inzil's positions in the anti-Brinnwagon-wagon are, that is - Huey's is pretty bold.

And as far as Rikae's death, I meant the clear trap. To kill 2 wolves with 1 arrow...is that right? Wait, 2 birds with 1 stone...

What makes you think it was "clear" that Rikae "set a trap"? Feel like I am missing something that you (and Mac??) consider obvious.

Rikae #148.
For immediately repeating 2 of 3 names from my list as suspicions, and then backtracking explicitly to avoid getting caught in a trap right after I explained to G55 that my post was intended as a wolf trap. That was ostensibly a reply to Mac saying the group was mostly innocent, but the coincidence is just too much for me to ignore.

Onto some matters today. Brinn my suspicions today really aren't based on anything you said or did yesterday. Your vote is "neutral" in it can't determine wolf or not. In the light of yesterday's posts, your Day 1 attitude of "not being bothered by random Day 1 suspicion" felt innocent. That was yesterday. It's a new day and with more information on the 2 deaths, people start looking different, you being one of them.

Scenario 1. The wolves thought Rikae was gifted. But if they though them the seer, then they know that they didn't dream of me. Really, people. Are some of you really suggesting that a wolf-version of me would be dumb enough to go after Rikae because I thought they were the seer? :rolleyes: I don't know if any wolves would be so jumpy this early in the game. In a village of 20+, it would be very lucky indeed if the seer dreamt of a wolf on Night 1.~Brinn

That looks suspicious. I rarely get a good feeling about "do you really think I'd be that dumb as a wolf." There's a variety of different styles and strategies that work. If Rikae was the seer, it wouldn't have been dumb at all for wolf-you to kill them. That fact that Rikae did not turn out to be the seer, doesn't mean you were dumb for targeting them, just means you were unsuccessful in finding the real seer.

Indeed. Can you explain that, Boro?


Yeah, I'm afraid I can't beyond having an intense headache that I left yesterday with and still have right now.

It's generally accepted I was weird as hell yesterday. Primarily because I do enjoy Day 1 discussion. I hate the voting, but I enjoy the banter and activity. You might say I like to "survey the landscape," do more observing of what people are saying/doing, but letting people do it and sort of watching how they play out. There was LGP fake voting, few folks talking about the QT, Mac getting buttered up. People think it's non-committal wolvery ok, but instead of immediately jumping on and drawing attention to every plot I see. I give it time to play out until solid evidence comes in.

What do I know now, that I didn't know then, in all the discussion yesterday.

G55. Cobbler. The fake voting stuff at the start looks like complete cobbler distraction. The 2 others heavily involved in that discussion (Legate and Pitch) I don't see a reason to suspect wolvery of on the basis of the fake-voting conversation.

My point on Rikae:
Rikae - a wild card. I have trouble pinpointing/figuring out whether what she's trying to accomplish is good or evil. But regardless of role, strives to accomplish something.
I know they will always be trying something, but I see little benefit in pointing out what someone's attempting until knowing more. What do I know now...Rikae's innocent. Night killed. Set an intentional trap. Maybe it caught an innocent, ok possible. But there's no reason to think Rikae had malicious intent. And there's no reason to believe Rikae was lying about it.

It would be foolish to just let that disappear/forget about.

But perhaps Boro or Mac has been reading them more carefully overNight. :Merisu:~Lommy

That's plain evil looking. Of course I read people's post overnight. How else is anyone able to keep track of hundreds of posts while the day is ongoing and more posts being added to it? I have to read a lot of it in the night phase. Maybe I've underestimated your cunning ability to argue with yourself and look innocent. That's a bad comment.

I'm going to be gone quite a while, will make it back around 3 hours before dl.

Edit: crossed posts and forgot to attribute my last quote to Lommy. Corrected

[Kitanna]

Mac
Post #52: Jumps almost immediately into the fake vote debate. He takes it to mean no real votes, believing the wolves can throw votes wherever with no real consequence. He also brings up the tighter schedule for a lot of people in having two DLs. Casts suspicion on Legate naming him cobblerish. Doesn't think a wolf would stick their head out that far.
Post#97: He got a lot of mentions after his original post. Including some "fishy" feelings from Legate and Rikae misquoted him as suggesting Legate was infected, when he had said cobblerish. Agrees with Huin that Pitch was pinning no vote/fake vote on Legate. Notes Legate started going after those who cast suspicion on him. After this second post Lhuna called him scary and Mac was talked about quite frequently.
Post#111: Sees where Pitch is coming from in regards to a post where Pitch pings him. Subtly accuses me of wolfy behavior for saying in LGP there's probably a wolf, but then goes on to say he's also guilty of contributing. As were others who engaged in that conversation. I think he noted me because I said I suspected a wolf outright whereas most everyone else was saying "it's odd, it's fishy, etc."
Post#132: Makes a case for why a bold wolf might stick their neck out based on a comment from Boro

Originally Posted by Boro]
What you must ask though is not "would a wolf stick their head out that early?" but would a Legate-wolf do it? With a pack of 5 there's higher incentive to start out bolder. Because it means you have 4 companions who can throw their weight around and steer it in favor or opposed to Legate depending on how the winds go. Where the rest of us rely only on ourselves.
I highly doubt the pack would come out in force and steer the wheel only to keep one packmember from fenrisizing themselves. Chances are that one of them will bite the dust at some point, and then people will look at their old posts. Such Day1 behavior can sink the wolfship on a later day.
Then says this This is what I mean. I can feel a race between Pitch, G55, and Legate coming up, while the wolves are snickering in the background.
I'm not even saying that there isn't a wolf among them - it's possible - but I don't like the way this is gaining momentum.
I don't think the distancing of himself from the whole thing. He was amongst those casting doubts in the direction of LGP and yet, despite his own involvement, finds me wolfy for it. Then continues to bring it up, but pulls a Han Solo "I have a bad feeling about this." I saw a few posts when skimming Day 1 about him being scary, I didn't get it at the time, but I do now.
Post#166: Comments on Rikae/G55 Questions G55 on why she thinks Rikae sidestepped questions. Fake votes self.
Post#196: Legate seems fairly fine, actually. Pitch still seems tense to me, but that alone is not enough. The way Gala went all out after Rikae makes me think she's innocent. Rikae's response doesn't point in either direction, so I don't have anything there either. Inzil is suspiciously unsuspicious (for his standards). Huin seems reasonable. Boro plays with the pressure-less cheer of an ordo. I feel fairly good about Greenie and THE Ka. Many people are quiet. I don't have any opinion on a whole bunch yet.
Casts some light suspicions on Brinn but it's in a very non-commital "well innocents do this too" kind of way. But does quote her later calling her words very wolfy.
Post#218: Comments on some susicpion throw his way from Greenie over his aforementioned Brinn comments.
Post#259: Votes Brinn
toDay-
Post#303: Believes G55 believed Rikae to be innocent, believing maybe the former believed the latter was gifted.
Now Rikae is dead. Did the wolves follow Gala’s judgement and thought them gifted? I don't see it, unless maaybe if Brinn is indeed a wolf and the way Rikae suspected her set them off. Not gonna put too many eggs into that basket, though.

Why Rikae then, just because after yesterDay they'd look the most innocent of all toDay and thus least likely to be lynched? Possibly, but if so, our wolf pack is boring.

Unless... I'm being framed. By the exact thinking above, a mewolf would have reason to think Rikae really is the seer. If the wolves are preparing my head for the chopping block, I have to raise my eyebrow at those who suddenly suspected me near the deadline, since this would very much play into their hands/paws. *coughgreeniecough*
*raises on eyebrow* I don't love how he continually brings up himself as mewolf and crafts a conspiracy theory around wolves setting him up.
This would look perfect if Kitanna and Legate are wolves together. She’s suspicious of him and defending him at the same time. It’s easy to say that there’s a wolf in that group if you know that there is. Note how in conclusion, she finds Gala and Pitch more suspicious than Legate. Can't suspect a fellow wolf too much.
Except when I suspected Legate more later on. One could make the same argument for Mac. He jumped in on LGP throwing suspicion on the G&P, same as me.
Also says Legate did the same by suspecting me and backing away. I truly believe Legate would have voted for me if he didn't see it as a throwaway and could convince a few more people to hop on the wagon. Mac's comments actually make me think better of Legate. Mac is working hard to throw us together, while completely downplaying his own involvement in the Day 1 debate over LGP.
Post#305: =Mac]

Greenie mentioned yesterDay that Mac's analysis post of Brinn reads like someone talking themselves into suspecting someone else, which most often happens when a wolf is looking for a reason to suspect an innocent. So I definitely don't trust him at this point.
Except wolves know all day that they have to make up the reasoning for a vote for an innocent and can plan for it accordingly.
This whole debate gives me a headache. I'm not even sure what to say.
Post#331: Breaks down the fake/no votes. Says G55 sided with him, though in reading the quoted texts, I'm not sure sided is the right word, at least not siding with Mac. It seemed more like G55 was trying to get more people on her side about Rikae and since Mac was the only one catching what she was throwing. I'd say it was more G55 tried to convince others Mac sided with her and not the other way around.
Again brings up maybe G55 thought Rikae was gifted. Circles back to "maybe seer-Rikae" dreamt me"
Maybe she got hunter or ranger vibes from something, possible, but:
- it’s not unreasonable that seer-Rikae would pick me as their first dream.
- if you’re the seer and you know a wolf, what do you do? Keep quiet? Drop hints? Go all out and accuse? Try to subtly steer the village into lynching that wolf?
The way Rikae suspected me could fit the latter. Gala tried to associate herself with me several times, which makes me suspect that Gala thought so as well, a cobbler trying to reach out to who she thought was a wolf.

All of this was already on my mind during the Night and now Rikae is dead. Obviously, it’s a bit of a stretch for me to assume the wolves saw everything the same way. But here’s the thing - I got some fire late yesterDay from Greenie and a few. With a bit of a push, that case could gain momentum and get me lynched toDay - and an innocent lynched is a wolf not lynched.
Tinfoil hats only, please.

Mac seems to be working overtime to get the "they thought Rikae was the seer and wanted to frame me" off the ground. I do not like it. It's possible to say the wolves looked for someone to frame up and that's why Rikae was chosen, but I think the more likely explanation is they thought in light of G55 dying a cobbler, Rikae would potentially be assumed innocent. A lot of people were leaning that way by end of Day. Mac's continued assertion it was a frame up makes me uneasy, but I find his behavior Day 1 more suspicious. Mac brought up LGP multiple times, casting suspicions to GP and finding Legate more innocent. But then backs off sharply to accuse me of the same behavior. Then votes Brinn because he didn't like the traction LGP was getting. It wasn't that the vote for Brinn didn't come with a decent argument, it was it looked so obviously like he didn't want to tangle himself in an LGP bandwagon. Looking at the voting table, when he voted G55 was ahead and his vote tied Brinn though it wouldn't have mattered since first vote of a tie dies. I'm not sure how cross-posted his vote was though. He may not have known that his would tie up votes.

I feel like I'm never going to catch up and analyzing everyone is not possible, though I had hoped it would be. Looking at those I have read through, I'd say Eonwe and Mac are the most suspicious to me right now.
Eonwe: His vote was really what gets me. It just looked like a classic vote to keep his hands clean. I want to keep a close eye on him for it.
Mac: His tinfoil hatting and backing so sharply from LGP worries me.

[Urwen]

I think you missed one of my posts.

[Huinesoron]

Brinn my suspicions today really aren't based on anything you said or did yesterday. Your vote is "neutral" in it can't determine wolf or not.

Rikae's innocent. Night killed. Set an intentional trap. Maybe it caught an innocent, ok possible. But there's no reason to think Rikae had malicious intent. And there's no reason to believe Rikae was lying about it.

I find 'It's nothing you did yesterDay, it's just that you fell into a trap yesterDay' quite suspicious.

I'd say Eonwe and Mac are the most suspicious to me right now.
Eonwe: His vote was really what gets me. It just looked like a classic vote to keep his hands clean. I want to keep a close eye on him for it.

I can see finding a quiet person with a throwaway vote suspicious, but "most suspicous" sounds a little strong. Is there really nobody in the village you find more suspicious for what they've said, besides Mac?

Urwen - welcome to the game. :)

hS

[Kitanna]

I can see finding a quiet person with a throwaway vote suspicious, but "most suspicous" sounds a little strong. Is there really nobody in the village you find more suspicious for what they've said, besides Mac?
Since I haven't finished looking in-depth at everyone, no. These are the two I've formed a strong opinion on. Sorry you don't approve of my method for a reread.

[Huinesoron]

Since I haven't finished looking in-depth at everyone, no. These are the two I've formed a strong opinion on. Sorry you don't approve of my method for a reread.

Oh, ha, sorry, I glossed over the 'of those I've read through'. (Worse - I caught it, went back to look at who you had read, found your discussion of Eonwe and forgot what I was looking for.) That makes more sense then.

hS

[Boromir88]

I find 'It's nothing you did yesterDay, it's just that you fell into a trap yesterDay' quite suspicious

hS

Sneaking on for a quick comment addressing this...
“In the light of yesterday”...yesterday did not know Rikae’s role. Did not know their guilt or innocent, so could have been a nefarious trap set by a wolf. Now I know it was an innocent trap set for a wolf. Possible it snagged an innocent Brinn? Ok, but I prefer not to argue with myself.

[Lhunardawen]

Okay, let's see if I remember how to do this.

An ordo knows only one thing for sure: xe is innocent. Everyone else is unknown. The Hunter, Ranger, and (may she rest in quarantine) Cobbler are in the same boat.
The Seer knows a few more things: xe is innocent, and at this point the identity of two other villagers.
An Infected knows far more: that xe is evil, that 4 other people are evil, and that everyone else is innocent.

Sorry, needed to review.


No use beating a quarantined horse, but speaking of Cobbler - I honestly didn't suspect G55 to be one because I expect the Cobbler would prioritise playing to last longer in the game over wreaking havoc and risking an early lynch. But as someone said before, there are a lot of ways to play that role. I just can't get behind the arguments of someone doing something related to G55 thinking that she's the Cobbler.


So a village of this size and verbosity is pretty overwhelming. I'm doing this piecemeal for my sanity, so I might be repeating some points made on later pages or asking questions that have already been addressed. I'll get to them eventually.

Huinesoron, that first post of yours toDay -- I can't. I just can't right now. I'll try going back to it later, but right now just looking at it... *brain explodes*

I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?
Bwahaha, suuuuureVery curious about this.

x/d with Brinn
Ditto. I'm kind of wondering how she's still alive. My reasoning goes round in circles but hovers more over somewhere unsettling.

I am a little bit side-eyeing the late (but before the "reveal") Brinn voters. If you were a wolf, you'd probably rather keep the loud, distracting player who is haring after someone not in your pack than keep the quieter player who isn't going to help you hide as much. Specifically, Mac, Legate, and Rune.
I'm not sure I follow this. You're suspecting three people because you think as a wolf they voted for a quiet innocent to save a loud innocent?

I don't think Brinn's innocence is proven by any means, but I do think that the vote patterns look (to me at least) very much like wolves choosing between two "innocents". I also think that the wolves would probably have rather lynched Brinn over G55, assuming neither was a packmate. I don't think they were trying to "orchestrate an innocent lynch" - I think, based on the overall tone of the late voters, that it came down to two options, neither of whom was a wolf. No one felt like a wolf nervously trying to avoid lynching a packmate without overtly defending them, or anything like that.
Hmm. I guess it just seems a bit of a stretch to me because it's an assumption I wouldn't make. I'm not even sure Brinn's all that innocent, so how can I guess someone else's identity based on that unstable premise?

Ok then. Obviously Gala considered Rikae to be innocent. In fact, by the fairly spirited way she went after them, she likely thought they were not just innocent, but gifted. What set her off against them was an error in a comment about me. Maybe she thought Rikae was the seer, dreamt of wolf-me (No, I’m not a wolf, but she Gala doesn’t know that) and tried to get me lynched by exaggerating what little could be found that early into Day1? Now Rikae is dead. Did the wolves follow Gala’s judgement and thought them gifted? I don't see it, unless maaybe if Brinn is indeed a wolf and the way Rikae suspected her set them off. Not gonna put too many eggs into that basket, though.

Why Rikae then, just because after yesterDay they'd look the most innocent of all toDay and thus least likely to be lynched? Possibly, but if so, our wolf pack is boring.
Frankly I don't understand why a few people say Rikae looked more innocent after yesterDay (before it was revealed they actually are, of course). Sure, they went toe-to-toe with who we now know as the Cobbler. They didn't know that for sure then. How did that all but guarantee their innocence?

That being said... WHAT. You tell us. Did you follow G55's judgment and thought them gifted?

Unless... I'm being framed. By the exact thinking above, a mewolf would have reason to think Rikae really is the seer. If the wolves are preparing my head for the chopping block, I have to raise my eyebrow at those who suddenly suspected me near the deadline, since this would very much play into their hands/paws. *coughgreeniecough*
Can't imagine a suicidal Macwolf but with 114 games I guess anything's possible. I don't know what to think anymore.

If G55 turned out Ranger, I would be feeling a lot different about Steve's throw away.
Care to explain, Boro? How would that be any different?

What I meant by "let's make this more interesting" was "let's see if anyone rushes to save Gal, or joins the bandwagon after me to save Brinn". Adding a new vote candidate 15min before the dl when 2/3 of the village had already voted would have been the opposite of making it interesting...
On the contrary, it would be exactly what will make things interesting. I mean, look at the interest Eönwë's getting now for his vote for Urwen. :p

You are operating awfully close to the idea as if you somehow knew Brinn to be innocent. Objectively, the idea of Wolves keeping loud distracting player vs quiet one makes sense, but your whole theory stands on the idea that Brinn would have to be not one of them.
You said it better than I attempted to.

Off to work, will be back with what's left of my brains later toDay.
Not much is left. Nothing for you here, zombies.


Yay one page down!

[Pitchwife]

Urwen, since you're apparently here, is there anybody you suspect?

I find 'It's nothing you did yesterDay, it's just that you fell into a trap yesterDay' quite suspicious.

See, and this is again the same kind of distorting abbreviation I called you out on before, and it's starting to make me uneasy, whether it's about me or Boro or whosoever. yesterDay, then it's probably something she did toDay, right?] It may be just hasty reading on your part, or it may be a method. *ping*

Macs paranoia about being framed toDay reminds me of his overreaction to Hui yesterDay (when Hui was actually semi-defending him) AND what he said about himself being nervous if a wolf.

Ditto. I'm kind of wondering how she's still alive. My reasoning goes round in circles but hovers more over somewhere unsettling.
I third this. [Zil, my eyebrow raised at you earlier was me doubting you should have drawn attention to it, but it's out in the open now anyway.] It would have been very bold of a wolf to react this way to a gifted reveal, but it would have been very bold of an innocent too.

[Inziladun]

I third this. [Zil, my eyebrow raised at you earlier was me doubting you should have drawn attention to it, but it's out in the open now anyway.] It would have been very bold of a wolf to react this way to a gifted reveal, but it would have been very bold of an innocent too.

It could hardly have stayed hidden. Thing is, the only way she could have known G55 wasn't who she claimed was if she was the Ranger herself. If that's the case, why on Arda would Rikae have been a better target over Kit (unless the Wolves indeed were antsy Rikae might be the Seer)?

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Inziladun]

[Quote=Originally Posted by G55]
I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?
Bwahaha, suuuuure
Very curious about this.

I third this. [Zil, my eyebrow raised at you earlier was me doubting you should have drawn attention to it, but it's out in the open now anyway.] It would have been very bold of a wolf to react this way to a gifted reveal, but it would have been very bold of an innocent too.

First, the quote within the quote within the quote, what a formatting nightmare. Second, I was just going to ignore Inzil and hope no one else brought it up. But I knew G55 was a Liar McLiarFace with her pants set ablaze.

[Pitchwife]

But seriously, Kit, if that is so, how are you alive? Another framing attempt?

[Kitanna]

But seriously, Kit, if that is so, how are you alive? Another framing attempt?

I'm surprised myself. And if people don't believe me, then I'm not sure what to say.
Because honestly, I had a crap RL day and seeing G55's fake reveal sent me over the edge and I stupidly had a knee-jerk reaction. And that's all I'm going to say. I thought I'd be pegged in the night. I wasn't. So either people believe me or they don't. Either way, I'm going to continue to plug along in my reread.

[Lhunardawen]

I am the Ranger. Are you gonna waste the lynch?
Bwahaha, suuuuure
Very curious about this.Ditto. I'm kind of wondering how she's still alive. My reasoning goes round in circles but hovers more over somewhere unsettling.
I third this. [Zil, my eyebrow raised at you earlier was me doubting you should have drawn attention to it, but it's out in the open now anyway.] It would have been very bold of a wolf to react this way to a gifted reveal, but it would have been very bold of an innocent too.

First, the quote within the quote within the quote, what a formatting nightmare. Second, I was just going to ignore Inzil and hope no one else brought it up. But I knew G55 was a Liar McLiarFace with her pants set ablaze.

But it is also kind of entrancing, isn't it? :p

Sorry, not sorry.

How? As an ordo your certainty can only be asymptotic to 100% AT BEST. But I didn't think you would be so careless? flippant? bold? as to post that if you 100% knew for sure, if you get my meaning. Hence my reasoning in circles.

Edit: Or as a wolf, for that matter

[Inziladun]

But seriously, Kit, if that is so, how are you alive? Another framing attempt?

That's what I can't fathom. Does it give Rikae-as-possible-Seer more weight? Or could it point to a very bold Kitwolf?

[Huinesoron]

See, and this is again the same kind of distorting abbreviation I called you out on before, and it's starting to make me uneasy, whether it's about me or Boro or whosoever. yesterDay, then it's probably something she did toDay, right?] It may be just hasty reading on your part, or it may be a method. *ping*

Distorting, or revealing? Boro's post (this is #363) does indeed lay out his reasons for suspecting Brinn on the basis of toDay, and if that's all it did, then 'it's not what you did yesterDay' would stand up perfectly fine. But then, after making that explanation, and after a digression onto his own behaviour, he discusses Rikae's trap. I elided the parts in between to highlight the contradiction they seemed like they could be trying to disguise.

It really feels like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too: he wants to argue that his suspicions of Brinn are based solely on her actions toDay, but he also wants the legitimacy of 'look, our confirmed innocent caught her!'.

When pressed about it, he said:

“In the light of yesterday”...yesterday did not know Rikae’s role. Did not know their guilt or innocent, so could have been a nefarious trap set by a wolf. Now I know it was an innocent trap set for a wolf. Possible it snagged an innocent Brinn?

Which makes perfect sense - but isn't what his original post actually said. There's a big difference between 'I didn't suspect you yesterday' and 'I don't suspect you on the basis of what you did yesterday'. Boro is claiming the former while stating the latter.

... or at least, I think there's a big difference. If other people read Boro's 'not based on yesterday' to mean more the former, then perhaps I'm just misreading.

Looking at the crossposts: do we really want to be pressing Kitanna for more information? Fine if she's a wolf, but otherwise isn't it better to keep the wolves guessing?

hS

[Inziladun]

My leaning is that Rikae was targeted for Seer-suspicion. I don't see better lynch candidates today than those she might have made uneasy (yes, I know I was somewhat in that group).

x/d with Huey

[Lhunardawen]

Looking at the crossposts: do we really want to be pressing Kitanna for more information? Fine if she's a wolf, but otherwise isn't it better to keep the wolves guessing?



Not so much pressing her for information as loudly wondering how she's alive and if she has anything to say about it.

[Pitchwife]

I'm surprised myself. And if people don't believe me, then I'm not sure what to say.
Because honestly, I had a crap RL day and seeing G55's fake reveal sent me over the edge and I stupidly had a knee-jerk reaction. And that's all I'm going to say. I thought I'd be pegged in the night. I wasn't. So either people believe me or they don't. Either way, I'm going to continue to plug along in my reread.
OK, I must say this kind of makes sense, or at least I'm inclined to believe Kit for now. It would really make no sense for a wolf to stick their neck out like that, because


if G55 died as the Ranger, she would come under fire the next Day, and
if G55 died as an ordo (or cobbler), we'd question how Kit could have known that, as we do now.


Why would she needlessly put herself into this predicament?


Anyway, I move we leave Kit alone for now. Let's see how long the wolves can afford to let a Ranger live.

[satansaloser2005]

Good morning, fellow healthy friends! Here and reading.

[Inziladun]

Looking at the crossposts: do we really want to be pressing Kitanna for more information? Fine if she's a wolf, but otherwise isn't it better to keep the wolves guessing?

I brought it up because I wanted to know why she would say that, and I thought it impossible the Wolves had not already been well aware of it.

x/d with Lhuna, Pitch, and Sally

[Lhunardawen]

Anyway, I move we leave Kit alone for now. Let's see how long the wolves can afford to let a Ranger live.
My thinking was more along the lines of she might either know who the Ranger is, or be unable to commit suicide at Night. But I agree with moving on for now.

[Huinesoron]

Anyway, I move we leave Kit alone for now. Let's see how long the wolves can afford to let a Ranger live.

Timeline check: cross-posted with me (6 minutes earlier), or written after seeing it?

hS

[Brinniel]

Commenting as I read...

Boro's starting remark "there must be Wolves among these big bandwagons" (while likely) and the fact he excluded the remaining votes forced me to look them up and that in turn prompted me to calculate.
I forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but I didn't like how he excluded the non-me/G55 bandwagoners. Because I certainly think there is at least a wolf or two among that group it's nonsensical to blow them off.

Brinn seems to think Rikae was picked to frame her
Nope, I don't necessarily think that's the reason they killed them; just mentioning it among the many possibilities.

As for scenario 4, this is basically Brinn saying that we shouldn’t look at the Night kill because in her opinion it implicates her, and anyone who does look at it is suspicious.
Twisting my words a bit. I didn't say we shouldn't talk about it at all - just that it shouldn't be the main focus of the Day and anyone who leans into it too much could be sketchy.

Note: I am able to pop in throughout the day, but I am multi-tasking between work.

[Thinlómien]

I'll make another list to address my thoughts about everyone but before that - yes, my comment about wolves reading the thread at Night was a bit tongue-in-cheek (hence the Merisu smiley) and I wouldn't have made it if I didn't suspect both Mac and Boro to a degree, but I'm gonna backtrack a little and say it was a somewhat stupid comment. Just because I'm so lazy I basically never read the thread at Night when innocent :D doesn't mean someone else couldn't - especially in a game with the qt where your effort isn't wasted if you're killed the Night you spent reading other people's posts. And especially since this village is crazy big and there's a lot to read.

~*~

GREEN

Legate - seems like he and his thought processes have nothing to hide, also like I said the wolves may have thought Rikae was a seer who dreamt of him.

Kath - still don't have much of a reason to suspect her, so ignoring her for now bc to put it quite frankly, I can't pay attention to everyone in a village this big.

Lhuna - I get an innocent vibe from her posts toDay especially, and she's making me giggle way too much to lynch her just yet. ;)

Inzil - idk, seems innocent to me, usually I get wolfier vibes if he's a wolf...? Also I have the vague feeling people are poking at him in hopes of finding an easy target, especially in regards to grouping him with Lottie, whom I find much more suspicious. Extra worrisome if Lottie is a wolf.

Kitanna - I trust her, and if that wasn't enough, my ill-timed reread of her posts yesterDay made her look rather innocent to me already.

Rune - leaning innocent based on my yesterDay's quick reread, hasn't done anything eyebrow-raising since.

THE Ka - she just generally gives me solid, reasonable, innocent vibe and like with Kath, I see no reason to start second-guessing myself about it right now when 2/3 of the village seem more suspicious to me and that's plenty to consider already.


YELLOW

Huinesoron - everytime I read a post of theirs, I'm like 80% "how does your brain work that way???" but that doesn't mean they have guilty brain, just that they have different brain from me. I'm aware I kind give them the benefit of doubt based on this endlessly, but for the time being I'm not too worried about any particular thing.

Pitchwife - fishy yesterDay, then seemed innocenter enough by the end of the Day that I didn't want to see him lynched, then seemed fishy again earlier toDay, and now I'm again getting a good vibe? Ehhhhhhhhhhhh......

Greenie - I agree with her posts very much, but I'm unsure what to make of how "safely" she is playing, especially if neither of Mac or Brinn is a wolf, and Rikae was killed for another reason altogether. (Possible. Like I said, they could've just given "nervous gifted" vibes, and if you look at their posts, I personally think innocent!Legate looks the most like a seer dream. Of course, a wolf!Mac or a wolf!Brinn or their packmates might see the posts in a different light.)

Boro - I was very suspicious of his weird style yesterDay, and toDay continued the same way until #363 sounded suddenly completely like the normal Boro I'm used to, most likely an innocent version. So I'm willing to wait and see how this develops.

Urwen - well, not much to go on. I don't particularly suspect her, but I'd like a clear statement if she's willing to try and play or not...?

Lalaith - still too quiet to judge (even if the reasons are understandable), but feels more innocent than not. However, has fooled me in the past...

Brinniel - not quite sure what to make out of all the drama around her. Her being innocent would sort of make more sense to me in relation to everyone and like I said, I kinda doubt her pack would have considered Rikae the likeliest seer, unless it's something like Brinn, Urwen, Lalaith, Sally and Rune and there wasn't much about anyone of them that could have triggered seer panic. I'm still unsure though because a lot of Brinn's posts nonetheless sit wrong with me, BUT I do remember a game where she was innocent and came under heavy suspicion and her reaction was very much like this and people latched onto it the same way they (myself included) have done now. Not entirely opposed to lynching her (might be very informative) but I cannot honestly say I think she's our best bet of lynching a wolf toDay, therefore we should resist the temptation.

Eönwë - basically everything he says makes me go "yeah" or "fair enough", which is of very limited value in the long run. Need a better read on him.

Sally - as I've said before, her yesterDay's vote says nothing. I'd like to hear more about who she suspects and who she trusts before judging her.

Shasta - somehow submarining despite throwing around quite bold statements. No particular reasons to trust or distrust him so far.


RED

Lottie - got a funny vibe already yesterDay, ignored it because she seemed better for a while, and now she's again looking at things from a very wolfy pov (especially if Brinn is innocent).

Mac - his thought processes seem very paranoid and wolfy, and I do not understand how he's so convinced the wolves thought it looked like seer!Rikae dreamed of him and decided to frame him. If I had to vote now, I'd vote for him - and to be honest I'm kinda tempted to vote him soonish anyway to get things rolling because I suspect him far more than anyone else and I'd like to see him a sa lynch candidate. (Besides, I think we should start voting a bit earlier than during the last hour anyway because then the sheer amount of posts makes the thread dangerously difficult to keep track of...)


So, even if I was miraculously right about both the "red" and "green" groups, that would mean there are three wolves hiding among the ten people I labelled "yellow". Certainly food for thought... That being said, I would prefer to lynch Mac toDay, or if not, then Lottie.


edit: xed with Hui and Brinn

[Pitchwife]

I re-read some people's posts during the Night, starting with Zil.
Early on he engaged in some discussion of the QT and the fake vote proposal, which he argued against.

#54 Replied to Mac's suggestion that Legate could be the cobbler with the much over-analyzed "Hmm. Perhaps." [Writing this down now, it would actually be funny if Mac and Zil were wolves together!]
#82 Goes on to discuss the pros and cons of looking for the cobbler. Disagrees with G55 about Lommy and Ka. Wavering whether Legate or G55 made him more uneasy.
#86 Suspicion seems to shift to G55 who put out the fake vote idea but 'left it looking like Legate's ball'.
#102 Not suspecting me, that in itself alarming.
#205 Boro was creeping him out, but that has lessened. G55 his main suspicion. Wonders about the G55/Rikae altercation. Questions Brinn about her fear of 'walking into a trap' re her suspicion of G55 and me.
#222/227 Disapproves of Urwen's vote, but would a wolf be so careless?
#228 Doesn't like the feel of the Brinnwagon (which had only two wheels at the time, as Rikae pointed out)
#241 Votes G55; her death could say a lot about Legate Pitch & Rikae
#265/273 reactions to G55's fake reveal


Mostly this reads like usual Zil - laid back, watching, weighing things and being mostly unscrutable. Got to say though, I could totally see him as a wolf deciding to leave Legate alone and go for G55 instead after Mac (and Lommy before, let's not forget that) suggested that Legate might be the cobbler (except they got it wrong).


Also, IF Kit is the genuine ranger and the wolves left her alive in order to frame her (and because they prioritised possibly-seerish Rikae), they would want to make sure to bring the topic up, right? So I think my eyebrow actually stands.

[Pitchwife]

Timeline check: cross-posted with me (6 minutes earlier), or written after seeing it?

hS
Saw it as I was writing.

[Nogrod]

Urwen is leaving the game. She is not Mod-fired, but leaves on her own initiative.

I'll write her off in toDay's narrative.


So please do not vote for her toDay. It will be a zero-vote.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Chiming in, and I did not like this debate at all:

I third this. [Zil, my eyebrow raised at you earlier was me doubting you should have drawn attention to it, but it's out in the open now anyway.] It would have been very bold of a wolf to react this way to a gifted reveal, but it would have been very bold of an innocent too.
It could hardly have stayed hidden. Thing is, the only way she could have known G55 wasn't who she claimed was if she was the Ranger herself. If that's the case, why on Arda would Rikae have been a better target over Kit (unless the Wolves indeed were antsy Rikae might be the Seer)?
But seriously, Kit, if that is so, how are you alive? Another framing attempt?

Sorry guys. But you are both suspicious as Morgoth wearing a tutu under the Two Trees. When you mentioned it first, fine. When you clarified that you wouldn't have talked about it if it didn't seem clear that it was "out in the open" anyway, fine. But when you continued battering it even after Kit answered you, I was like, what in the name of all the sons of Fëanor?!?

There is also one very nice option about why not Kit - that the WWs thought they could get the village to lynch her. Or perhaps they were not entirely convinced (to be fair, that comment of Kit's could be read in many absolutely "innocent" ways!) and preferred not to risk it and/or they wanted to see if they can further get someone else to contest it or whatever.

Also, you guys should both realise that if Kit survived because she was a Wolf, then why would she make that comment in the first place?

All in all, your behaviour makes very little sense and we don't like it at all, no, precious.

And I think this debate should never have happened to begin with. Howgh.

[Loslote]

Also, IF Kit is the genuine ranger and the wolves left her alive in order to frame her (and because they prioritised possibly-seerish Rikae), they would want to make sure to bring the topic up, right? So I think my eyebrow actually stands.

Also, if Kit is NOT the Ranger and the wolves decided to sacrifice her in order to draw out the real Ranger, I would implore the real Ranger to NOT come out just to expose her. I agree that I am hugely suspicious of Zil and, to a lesser degree, Lhuna and Pitch for continuing to talk about it. Drawing attention to it doesn't help the village at all.

Longer post to follow, just thought that should be said.

[Kitanna]

So this is who I have left to review:
Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Huinesoron
Loslote
Pitchwife
Inziladun
A Little Green
Boromir88
Rune Son of Bjarne
Shastanis Althreduin
*Cries*
I removed Brinn for now, at least for yesterDay's posts, ideally I'll be able to look in-depth at toDay's posts, but honestly, the future does not look bright for me. I also took off the dearly quarantined. I figure anything I missed of G55 and Rikae is being covered in-depth toDay in light of their demises.

Inzil
Post #6: Banter
Post #8: Mostly more banter. And by mostly I mean a little "hmmmm" toward Huin's comment about overloading the Downs.
Post #19: Banter
Post #25:

Also once we have the quarantine let's just be mindful not to focus too much on speculating about that, right? Unless the first person who goes there is a wolf, it would be pretty funny to see how a known dead wolf would vote!
Speculating on what those there are doing? No point. It's difficult (though not impossible!) to see a wolf being the first gone, but if that happened it could be useful.
Post #34: Comments on Legate's discussion of the fake vote. States the plan is kind of what already happens.
Post #50: Continues to debate Legate, states wolves will have a good idea of the way the wind is going and can plan accordingly, in regards to fake/no vote.
Post #53: Agrees with THE Ka on some points, more of the same on wolves using a fake vote to twist things.
Post #54: Some comments on Mac's posts. More on the fact a fake vote can help the wolves. It's all very short and some head nodding and reiterating the same information in different ways.
Post #82: Some more comments on the goings on, back and forth with Greenie. Says Legate feels off. Says the wolves would be reluctant to target the cobbler, though the cobbler would be hinting if they kept to their best interest. Ends the post wanting to look more at G55 and Legate.
Post #86: More comments on other people's thoughts. Personally, I don't find these helpful or telling in getting a read on Inzil. It's a lot of speculation and clarification on points.
Post #99: More of the same.
Post #102: Says doesn't suspect Pitch, and that raises alarm bells.
Post #205: Boro was creeping me out early on, but that feeling has somewhat lessened.
I didn't read anything Inzil said in comments to Boro as him being creeped out, but more of a history of distrust over many games.


I highly doubt the pack would come out in force and steer the wheel only to keep one packmember from fenrisizing themselves. Chances are that one of them will bite the dust at some point, and then people will look at their old posts. Such Day1 behavior can sink the wolfship on a later day.
Conventional pack behavior might point to one or two loudmouths, one middle-of-the-road, and the rest under the radar.
Says G55 has been main suspect. Calls on Brinn who said she didn't want to get caught in a trap, parroting Rikae who said that comment was interesting.
Post #222: Questions Urwen's vote. And asks would a wolf be so careless?
Post #227: More on Urwen's
Post #228: Doesn't like the Brinnwagon. He had mentioned Brinn earlier as "interesting" for her trap comment, but otherwise, not much on her.
Post #231: Mentioned a "last night" comment from Shasta earlier and brings it up again here. Comes to the conclusion meant a literal RL last night and not last Night. Which, not sure why that wasn't his first thought?
Post #241: Votes G55, he was pretty consistent in suspecting her. So not really a surprise.
Post #265: Facepalm for the fake reveal
Post #273: Asks if everyone voted.
Post #287: Starting off toDay with Rikae was the first vote on Brinn, and it must be significant that the wolves went after her. It's far too early for them to have been simply wanting to frame someone.
I find all the talk of framing interesting. Not that I can't see the reasoning behind a theory on framing, it just seems like a lot of chatter on Day 2 about it. Which seems like a lot in comparsiion to other games, but it's been a long time, maybe this is normal.
Post #290: I thought she looked dodgy at the end of yesterDay. After so heavily going after G55, she failed to vote that way. I wondered if a Rikae-wolf hadn't started picking up the Cobblerishness.
Post #292: Posits the first question about my reaction to the reveal.
Post #296: Says Eonwe's was odd.
Post #297: Responds to Pitch about it being too early for a frame up, believes there were better options.
Post #304: Maybe. Hers was the first vote on Brinn, and then she got a little scratchy with those of us avoiding that wagon. That could point toward a Brinnwolf, but it could also lead back to the idea of a frameup.
With the frame up ideas toDay, not just from Inzil. I just don't see it. Not at this stage.
Post #307: Responds to Pitch on something I don't quite understand...
Post #316:

Also, Zil has just made me raise a big eyebrow in his general direction. *ping* (No, Mac, I'm not going to stop it!)
Elaborate, by all means.
You know, I'd like elaboration on this too. I looked back at the Inzil's post proceeding the ping and am not really sure what Pitch pinged. Inzil made plenty of short posts and any one of them could have raised Pitch's eyebrows, but which and why?
Post #315: Approves of Eonwe's vote in spirit, but still says it wasn't helpful.
Post #321: Calls out Urwen for cryptic posts.
Post #325: G55 had been my only real suspect all Day. The sudden push for Brinn made me wonder if someone wasn't trying to save a Galwolf.
Post #330: Tells Urwen to try their best, regardless of role.
Post #362: Comments on a Boro post about a Rikae trap set for a Brinnwolf. Says he didn't see it as a trap and didn't see Rikae as assumed innocent at end of Day. Agrees with Kath on speculation Rikae might have been thought to be the seer. Not sure of Legate and Pitch opportunistic if Brinn is innocent.
Post #372: Back to my G55 reveal comment.
Post #377: Can't fathom why I'm still alive unless it was believed Rikae was seer or I'm bold.
Post #379: More seer-Rikae notes and thinks lynch candidates should be those Rikae might have made uneasy.
Post #383: Response to Huin about pressing me for info.
And that's it.
I find it hard to get a decent read on Inzil. He spoke a lot and what he said was pretty consistent. He has been in the thick of things, but reads as playing it safe. Which, could probably be said of a number of others too. I'll just put him in my unsure pile for now.

[Lhunardawen]

It just occurred to me... For all intents and purposes, a vote for G55 is still a vote for an innocent (i.e. non-wolf). Maybe it's worth looking at those who voted for G55 as well. So, shamelessly stealing and combining Boro's and Eönwë's lists (with the non-G55 or Rikae votes in double brackets)...

[[Lhuna -> Lhuna]]
Rikae -> Brinniel
[[G55 -> Rikae]]
[]
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel (2)
---30 min mark----
Kath -> G55 (2)
[[Shasta -> Pitchwife 2]]
[[Kitanna -> Pitchwife 3]]
Inzil -> G55 (3)
Lottie -> G55 (4)
[[Greenie -> Macalaure]]
THE Ka -> Brinniel (3)
[[Eönwë -> Urwen]]
----15 min mark----
Rune -> Brinniel (4)
Lommy -> G55 (5)
Huines -> G55 (6)
Legate -> Brinn (5)
Macalaure -> Brinn (6)
Brinniel -> G55 (7)
Sally -> Brinn (7) (after "ranger reveal")




I'm not even going to touch Urwen's vote, or think about Urwen at all, so long as she's determined to not-play this game. There's a modfire rule for a reason. :rolleyes:


[B]Kath
I'm struggling, because even though I feel like I talked myself out of it in the previous post, I am still suspicious of G55.

I didn't like early on that she was happy to slide all the 'responsibility' for the fake votes thing over to Legate. You can say he took a joking remark beyond her original intention but as I noted before it was actually her who brought it back up again.

And having backed away, the affray with Rikae is a great way to get involved in something without actually really having anything to say. It's all about what did that word really mean rather than much else. So it seems like she's been involved in a lot but hasn't really.

But what I'm REALLY struggling with is that I'm now following Urwen's vote, which I'm strongly irritated by on principle.
Thing is, I can't see where she talked herself out of her suspicion of G55. These were the last things she said about her:
G55 --> Rikae - quite a big fight seems to have blown up between these two. I looked at post 69 and couldn't really see anything in it. Yes, Rikae somewhat exaggerated events but it was early in the Day and to me read as typical banter. I don't think there was this element of deliberate misrepresentation that G55 feels is going on. I don't know if G55 has played with Rikae before and it's an unfamiliarity with playing style thing, or a great way for a wolf-G55 to have a pretty logical reason to vote an innocent-Rikae.
G55 ... earlier in the Day it was felt by some that she'd backed away from the 'fake-votes' in favour of leaving that to Legate, and was garnering a bit of suspicion or at least wary eyes as a result. She then leaps headfirst into a ding dong with Rikae and a few have now mentioned this makes her look innocent. I don't know that I'm going anywhere with this as it feels like it would be way too hard to make that a calculated thing.
She didn't really say much about suspecting G55 until her last couple of posts. Fishy. Can't quite put my finger on it.


Inziladun
I'm trying to decide whether I think Legate or G55 makes me more uneasy. In response to the fake vote discussion
G55 has actually been my main candidate most of the Day. I'm still catching up, but it seemed Rikae spent a while suspecting her, then voted Brinn.
Then G55 votes Rikae What's up with that?
Despite not having said much about her in his previous posts
I see Urwen has jumped in out of nowhere to vote for G55. Would a wolf really be so careless?
Careless? For voting without an explanation, or for voting for another suspected wolf?
Finally, on his vote for G55:There's no one else I would want at this point, and it could say a lot about Legate, Pitch, and Rikae.
It's odd how confident he seemed in his vote despite not saying much to support it in his previous posts. Suspiciously bandwagonny.


Loslote
Considered G55 and Pitch more wolf-like of the GLP trio. Thought Pitch didn't want to be tied up with or seen defending G55, kind of agreed with Huin that they might both be wolves. Pretty consistent in her suspicion of G55, even false-voted her. Thought she might be either Cobbler or wolf. Panicked at G55's reveal, urged the rest of the voters to vote Brinn to save her. Said anyone left who didn't vote for Brinn should be considered suspicious toDay.

Sounds sincere, albeit turned out to be wrong. Leaning innocent.


Thinlomien
First, she filed G55 under "Who Knows" Galadriel55 - several things she's said have made me raise my eyebrows a little - especially how she treated the whole no-vote discussion from the start, but I think she might rather be an ordo sticking her neck out à la Legate or else the cobbler, and in either case probably not who I want to concentrate any more toDay than we already have.
False-voted Boro.
* I always read Gal's original suggestion (that was a no-lynch plan unlike Legate's) as tongue in cheek, and I was under the impression Gal confirmed this?

Okay hopefully that's the very last thing from me both about the nature of flip-flopping and on how the fake vote discussion started rolling, because it's high time to move on.
Said "Quite a bold statement for Day1 and pretty much out of nowhere??" to Lottie over something the latter had said a couple of times throughout the Day. Then her posts at the end of yesterDay. Prefaced her vote with "let's make this interesting."
So Brinn and G55 both at 6, but G55 the one to be a goner so far? With curious last minute posts from several people here! ToMorow will be iiiiiinteresting...
Said this after G55's late reveal, then urged remaining voters to vote for Brinn. And then toDay: If the wolves were trying to orchestrate an innocent lynch yesterDay, it could have just as well been Gal, who they also knew wasn't one of them.

You would know, wouldn't you. Wicked. Tricksy. False.


Huinesoron
Questioned G55 for "hypothetically contemplating possible Wolf victories" (wolf-Hunter-ordo endgame).
Okay, I've stolen a little more time on the actual computer to read over "Phase 2" (people's comments on the G55/Legate/Pitch debate). Note that this does not mean I no longer suspect Pitch, G55, and Lommy (in no particular order);
But unless I missed something, I'm pretty sure that post above was his first considerable suspicion of her.
Okay, G55 reminds of that odd 'hey what if this specific scenario happened, would I still be a wolf winner?' question, so I guess I do have something else on her. Mac points out that Rikae's misrepresentation of him could be a simple mistake (I think someone's misattributed something to me somewhere, though I can't find it), which does make G55's continued pulling on the thread somewhat sketchy.
Mmmkay. Then false-voted Lommy. When G55 and Brinn tied at 2 apiece, said he still stands by his false-vote but would vote Pitch > G55 to derail the Brinnwagon. In the end voted G55 when the votes were at 4 Brinn, 3 Pitch, 5 G55.

If he voted Pitch as he preferred, he would have nearly contributed to a three-way tie, although I'm not sure if anyone else (other than Lottie, who at that point had already voted) would also vote for Pitch. Huin-Brinn wolf pair? Can it be that blatant?


Brinniel
As for the other side of the scale, it's still too early for me to feel any strong suspicions, but based on hunch and posts I've seen, I am slightly more wary of: Inzil, Pitchwife, G55
This was circa QT discussion, post-fake vote proposal, and pre-G55/Rikae.
I agree with this. I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap. I think I will stay clear of this potential mess for toDay and focus elsewhere.
Cue alarm bells for some people. On G55's probing, she said of the three she suspects Pitch > G55 > Leggie. Pseudo-false-voted Inzil. Said she might look at those building a case against Pitch, time-permitting. (Why?) Suspected Kitanna for being quick to point out that there's a wolf in the GLP group, but not enough to vote her. Said G55/Rikae seems like a squabble between two innocents.
And as for the suspicions against me? As I said I'm not too worried about general wariness, as we all do suspect one another at some point. However since I know I'm innocent, I will be watchful anyone who is trying to build on a case against me.
Hmmmmmm.

Would have voted for Kit, but voted G55 to save herself. Vote itself is reasonable. Everything else? Suspicious.


In the midst of my re-read, I saw this: Based on nothing more than this description of events I'd speculate on Cobbler-G55 and Innocent-Rikae. My opinion may change after I get context.The psychic strikes again.

[Lhunardawen]

Urwen is leaving the game. She is not Mod-fired, but leaves on her own initiative.

I'll write her off in toDay's narrative.


So please do not vote for her toDay. It will be a zero-vote.

Will she still be quarantined?

[Pitchwife]

Greenie D1:

#74 Discusses the QT, says we shouldn't rely on the Cutie vote. Re Legate's plan: consistency easier for wolves, innocents change their minds based on evidence & arguments. Disagrees with G55 about the usefulness of lists.
#79 We shouldn't focus on chasing the cobbler.
#124 Sums us Hui's and Kath's points about the LPG triangle.
#135 corrects Mac's 'translation' of a post of Hui's about people's suspicion of Mac. Not sure what to make of the Hui/Lommy exchange. Feels better about Legate after him explain the 'dry run'. More interested in reactions to LPG than the trio themselves.
#164 The List (which I need to reread once more)
#178 G55/Rikae: G55 an ordo frustrated for lack of support OR a wolf trying to make a big case
#189 Kitanna not edgy like some have said; quick to low level suspect people (G55/Rikae wolf-on-wolf, Pitch opportunistic wolf?), but more like an ordo stirring the pot, voicing bad vibes; leaning more innocent than not
#206/238 ad Mac re his suspicion of Brinn (which seems 'awfully convenient to her'): Brinn looks sketchy, but Mac's post abut her (#196) reads 'like a wolf thought process written out'
#243 votes Mac for above reason (not a throwaway vote IMO, not with 10 people still to vote after her and mild suspicion on Mac from several people through the Day)


Comes across as sensible & independent-minded. Nothing wolvish sticking out at me so far. Shasta found her List too Agreeable (TM) in some parts, and I'm going to look at it in this light if I have the time, but over all she seems pretty straightforward to me and engages with people. Leaning innocent.

[Boromir88]

Sneaking in again to say thank you Kit and more for your efforts to continue your analysis. Will be completely free within the next 2 hours until the DL.

[Lhunardawen]

Also, if Kit is NOT the Ranger and the wolves decided to sacrifice her in order to draw out the real Ranger, I would implore the real Ranger to NOT come out just to expose her. I agree that I am hugely suspicious of Zil and, to a lesser degree, Lhuna and Pitch for continuing to talk about it. Drawing attention to it doesn't help the village at all.

Longer post to follow, just thought that should be said.

No one's asking the real Ranger to come out, and frankly I doubt it needs to be said.

[Huinesoron]

Saw it as I was writing.

Thanks. I was trying to write up a timeline of the whole thing, until I realised it was just a timeline of consecutive posts, wasn't adding anything to my understanding, and by that time Legate and Lottie had already highlighted why it was suspicious anyway.

hS

[Inziladun]

I was prepared to let it go, however:

There is also one very nice option about why not Kit - that the WWs thought they could get the village to lynch her. Or perhaps they were not entirely convinced (to be fair, that comment of Kit's could be read in many absolutely "innocent" ways!) and preferred not to risk it and/or they wanted to see if they can further get someone else to contest it or whatever.

I had (and have) no intention of voting for her. It just made no sense that Wolves would have let her alone.

Also, you guys should both realise that if Kit survived because she was a Wolf, then why would she make that comment in the first place?.

I didn't know. That's why I wanted clarification.

[Loslote]

In reading toDay's posts, I have found myself very suspicious of Zil, due to his bringing up the Kit situation. I haven't necessarily gotten a "wolf feeling" off of him prior to this, but I haven't exactly gotten an "innocent feeling", either, and I can more easily believe that the wolves decided it was worth while to bring up the Kit situation than that an innocent just decided to make it open and public rather than trying to quietly ignore it. I have also found myself wary of Pitch, for continuing to talk about it, but there is some plausible deniability in that Zil mentioned it first.

I didn't like Boro's posts earlier toDay, but as he mentioned me as a suspect, I decided to sleep on it before reacting. He does have a point that I shouldn't just assume Brinn is innocent - but I think his reasons for suspecting Brinn are weird, and I don't like that he uses Rikae's trap "catching" Brinn as a reason to suspect her. It feels too "well, known innocent says!" for my tastes.

I am very concerned by Mac's response to the Night kill. It feels to me like he was very prepared to insist that it was a frame job, not a Macwolf killing a possible Seer, almost like he knew it was coming and had a whole Night to work up the paranoia. He is definitely high on my suspect list.

I am not comfortable with Lommy's posts toDay, but as I might be a bit biased due to her suspecting me, I'm going to take a minute to make sure I'm not being blinded by that before taking a closer look at her.

On a more positive note, I am getting an innocent vibe from Legate after reading his posts toDay.

[Pitchwife]

Legate, I quite agree (hence my initial eyebrow at Zil), but we'd already arrived at most of the points you make at the end of the discussion, so isn't it a bit convenient to make yourself look good by this holier-than-thou sermon?

[Eönwë]

Now that the Ranger discussion has been brought out into the public, I have to say that this post makes me feel better about Shasta:
I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did.
I know last time I said that it is possible that they are both wolves being cheeky, but it does seem more likely that he was, at least in that instance, trying to bury this discussion by pointing to Kit's post as something anyone might say. Again, it is possible that they are being very bold wolves, but generally, it seems risky to attach so closely to another wolf especially when you've voted in the same way. So whoever Shasta thinks the Ranger is, I think he is trying to protect them here by trying to suppress this discussion that has just been blown open (luckily not enough for any reveals to occur). Thus doesn't necessarily say anything about Kit's role, or even what Shasta thinks about Kit's role - whether he believes/believed that she is a gifted, ordo, or wolf, discussion of the Ranger is dangerous for the real Ranger.

[Loslote]

Now that the Ranger discussion has been brought out into the public, I have to say that this post makes me feel better about Shasta:

I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did.

I know last time I said that it is possible that they are both wolves being cheeky, but it does seem more likely that he was, at least in that instance, trying to bury this discussion by pointing to Kit's post as something anyone might say. Again, it is possible that they are being very bold wolves, but generally, it seems risky to attach so closely to another wolf especially when you've voted in the same way. So whoever Shasta thinks the Ranger is, I think he is trying to protect them here by trying to suppress this discussion that has just been blown open (luckily not enough for any reveals to occur). Thus doesn't necessarily say anything about Kit's role, or even what Shasta thinks about Kit's role - whether he believes/believed that she is a gifted, ordo, or wolf, discussion of the Ranger is dangerous for the real Ranger.

I agree with this. Shasta definitely handled the situation in the best possible way for an innocent, and I don't really see the benefit if he's a wolf. Makes me feel much better about Shasta.

[Macalaure]

I still find Brinn worrisome, but:
If she’s a wolf, then the wolves thought Rikae was the seer. If they didn’t think so, it would be a terribly incriminating pick, even if Rikae gave them hunter/ranger vibes - hunter and ranger are typically not super effective early in the game, so you could safely leave Rikae for later and kill somebody else. The thing is, the way Rikae raised her suspicion on Brinn did not have a seerish vibe to me.
If Brinn is not a wolf this leaves a greater variety of possible reasons. The wolves’ prime target is the seer, but what do they do if they don’t see one yet? You can’t seer hunt on flimsy hunches: it’s pretty bad for a pack if every night’s kill has the same subset of suspects and it's them. If you’re clueless about the seer, offing someone who might be ranger or hunter, or who would likely be the most innocent-looking person the next day, or whose death will frame innocents - or ideally a combination or all of the above - is a sensible course.
This gives me enough reason to leave Brinniel be for now.


Going back and looking over Rikae’s ‘bait-post’, this was especially insightful. Rikae speculates from Mac’s tone and approach that they’re either just happy to be playing again, or the quote given above. If you looked at some of Mac’s earlier posts on face value alone (for lie detecting in WW we don’t have the benefit of ‘face’ language), they’re using contractions, there is very little distance from who their subject is in their lists (using names directly, interspersed with memories/gossip, etc.), etc. They perhaps don’t omit everything and have some extraneous details here and there to roleplay a little with others, but when confronted on this, they cooperate with the questioning. It’s fun to be mysterious, to play, but the behavior above isn’t quite the one of someone trying to hide in the corner nor spend all their mental effort meticulously repeating an alibi.
I don’t think I’ve played with Macalaure in WW before, so I really don’t have the benefit of knowing their play style like others do, but I do know enough basics of looking for lying behavior and I’m not really seeing it in these posts. I didn’t see the logic entirely when players were trying to decide to make a Macwagon (another reason is that term alone is making me think of this: and then my mind just wants to make jokes the entire time…) the first Day.One gets used to having their posts analyzed in werewolf, but this level of analysis makes me very nervous and uncomfortable. :eek: If you’re using your powers for evil, we’re all doomed.

Also, you’re right, we’ve both played tons of games, but we’ve never been in the same one together!


Also, to those who say “the wolves don’t pick their kill just to frame someone” - who says just?
(especially since, as we’ve seen, this particular one apparently can “frame” either Brinn or Mac, depending on which one you ask)
If we’re both innocent, then.. both?? Wolves analyze who their kill will make look bad before they sign off on it! This dismissive tone is bothering me.

Conclusions? I’d be very surprised if both Mac and Brinn are innocent.
Self-fulfilling prophecy maybe, but this is exactly how I’d expect a Green wolf to act if framing me and/or Brinn is part of their plan. Dismiss framing concerns, raise suspicion, and close with a noncommittal “one of them is a wolf”.

Also, the "fake votes" debate was already going on by itself at that point, G55 was free to light another fire. The more, the merrier.
She may have started setting fires left and right, but in the end, she brought out the napalm.

Framing or not framing you she would leave for you to sort out
Oh, I don’t think Gala was trying to frame me. I think she felt I was a wolf and tried to buddy up to the pack. I have no proof, but I see a coherent possibility that the wolves are trying to use that as part of their plan.

So why is he so fixated on that?
Not because of what Rikae said, but because Gala’s entire attack rested on it.

I'm unwilling to go very meta on this
Yet you do go very meta on it. I could make a meta case against it, but won’t.

I am not fond of either Greenie or Lommy right now. At all.


Been rethinking Kitanna. While I obviously disagree with her case against me, I do feel like Kitanna’s accusations against me are a lot more earnest than Greenie and Lommy’s. Her taunting of Gala right before the deadline is also something only the boldest wolf would dare, I think. I’m gonna leave her and Legate be for now.


I feel the itch to make a suspicion list, but there are a whole number of people I haven’t been able to look at consistently, so I hope I’ll get to it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, and I am getting bad vibe from Lottie's post above.

It essentially says "I am suspicious of the people who did something toDay that has provoked controversy" - that could easily also mean "I am a Wolf waiting for people to pick which of the bandwagons that are offering themselves toDay would be the best to ride on". These are literally all the things that were controversial toDay, stated by someone else, so I could imagine Lothwolf writing it here to "butter up" people who first stated it. I am wary.

Similar kind of behaviour I have been noticing toDay still also in Huinesoron, to a degree - even though in his case, it is rather along the lines of "I comment on XY, but then again just so that you don't think, I do not really mean it, but thought you should know".

I have been feeling a bit better about Kitanna - her lengthy analyses lean more genuine - but I am still very much on the verge about her.

There are lots of people who are on my mind now, but I'll be on-and-off for a while now still, so excuse random tidbits.

EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and onwards

[Inziladun]

In reading toDay's posts, I have found myself very suspicious of Zil, due to his bringing up the Kit situation. I haven't necessarily gotten a "wolf feeling" off of him prior to this, but I haven't exactly gotten an "innocent feeling", either, and I can more easily believe that the wolves decided it was worth while to bring up the Kit situation than that an innocent just decided to make it open and public rather than trying to quietly ignore it. I have also found myself wary of Pitch, for continuing to talk about it, but there is some plausible deniability in that Zil mentioned it first.

Oh, come on!

With five wolves, is it plausible none of them saw the post before I asked about it the next Day!?

x/d with Legate

[Huinesoron]

Similar kind of behaviour I have been noticing toDay still also in Huinesoron, to a degree - even though in his case, it is rather along the lines of "I comment on XY, but then again just so that you don't think, I do not really mean it, but thought you should know".


My problem right now is that the current big thing is the Kit discussion, and it doesn't seem to be breaking along any kind of lines, and in particular along any of the lines I noted earlier. As just one example: you and Lottie entered the discussion with posts saying similar things, but now you suspect her for a post on a different aspect.

Which is exactly what I'd expect from an innocent! I'm not seeing anyone jumping out at me as a wolf, so I'm worried the whole thing is just villagers savaging villagers while the wolves look on and laugh.

I've also been wanting to see more from Mac, and I see he posted right before you did. Time to see what he has to say for himself.

hS

[satansaloser2005]

In no real order....

Mac seems too paranoid to be true.
Steve's vote seems more suspect the more I think about it.
Brinn gives me no read, which is worrisome, and therefore a bit suspicious.
Lottie is acting quite strangely, and engages in topics I think an innocent Pop would normally avoid.
Urwen no longer matters, so I'm not going to bother reading through her posts right now.


x'd since Pitch because I've been busy :(

[Loslote]

My problem right now is that the current big thing is the Kit discussion, and it doesn't seem to be breaking along any kind of lines, and in particular along any of the lines I noted earlier. As just one example: you and Lottie entered the discussion with posts saying similar things, but now you suspect her for a post on a different aspect.

Which is exactly what I'd expect from an innocent! I'm not seeing anyone jumping out at me as a wolf, so I'm worried the whole thing is just villagers savaging villagers while the wolves look on and laugh.

I agree with this. And I've seen this a couple of times now:

Legate, I quite agree (hence my initial eyebrow at Zil), but we'd already arrived at most of the points you make at the end of the discussion, so isn't it a bit convenient to make yourself look good by this holier-than-thou sermon?

Pitch was the first to raise an eyebrow at Zil's behavior, so he thinks it's holier-than-thou for Legate to come down on it. Then...

Okay, and I am getting bad vibe from Lottie's post above.

It essentially says "I am suspicious of the people who did something toDay that has provoked controversy" - that could easily also mean "I am a Wolf waiting for people to pick which of the bandwagons that are offering themselves toDay would be the best to ride on". These are literally all the things that were controversial toDay, stated by someone else, so I could imagine Lothwolf writing it here to "butter up" people who first stated it. I am wary.

Legate had already condemned the people who brought up Kit, so when I also brought it up, he thinks it's jumping on the bandwagon. Which is all somewhat fair, except that it was my genuine first reaction to seeing someone keep talking about a slip until the Ranger was forced to straight up admit it - this is very suspicious! Yeah, I wasn't the first to mention it, but I'm not going to avoid saying that I think it's suspicious just because I wasn't the first person to see it go down and say something about it.

[satansaloser2005]

Also, I don't like how we're discussing Kit, so those engaging in that discussion strike me as inherently more suspicious than those not. Just a random thought.


x'd with Lottie

[Inziladun]

Also, I don't like how we're discussing Kit, so those engaging in that discussion strike me as inherently more suspicious than those not. Just a random thought.

I am now done with it.

[Thinlómien]

I kinda agree with everything Sally has said after her return, but somehow it makes me rather more than less suspicious of her. She's mostly echoing sentiments of other players, and fairly uncontested ones at that. She couldn't be less controversial if she tried.

I'm flip-flopping on Lottie again. She seems to make sense from her own pov, but I'm not sure it's an innocent pov.

Mac's defence of himself didn't really make me less suspicious of him, but it did make me a little more suspicious of Greenie. Hmmm...

[satansaloser2005]

I kinda agree with everything Sally has said after her return, but somehow it makes me rather more than less suspicious of her. She's mostly echoing sentiments of other players, and fairly uncontested ones at that. She couldn't be less controversial if she tried.

Great minds think alike, and also sometimes this one.:rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

In such a big game, it's easier for me to focus on a few people at a time, rather than try to get a read on everyone and stressing myself out. My previous (twice removed) post is just who I'm reading as especially suspicious right now, so I'm unlikely to vote toDay for someone who isn't on that list. It's also getting closer to the end of the Day, so I think people might want to start making up their minds on who they're voting for, but I know that's easier said than done. :eek:

Unfortunately I passed out illogically early last night and didn't get the chance to post until this morning, so I'm sorry about that. I'll try to do better over the weekend, for sure.

[Kath]

Oh my goodness RL stuff has meant time has really got away from me toDay. This is going to have to be quicker than I would like.

Rikae surely had to be a suspected Gifted kill, I simply can't see the point of it otherwise, so all these 'I'm being framed' theories make no sense to me. Mac thinking he's being framed, Inzil thinking there could be a frame related to Brinn, Brinn suggesting it was a frame on her

Rikae was the first vote on Brinn, and it must be significant that the wolves went after them. It's far too early for them to have been simply wanting to frame someone.
(I edited Inzil's words for pronouns there). Inzil agrees it seems.

Whereas Lottie:
My guess is, the wolves thought Rikae looked so innocent after the G55 fight - it's doubtful the cobbler went full tilt after someone they thought could be a wolf - that she wouldn't provide much cover for them. Semi-known innocents can be really powerful, after all.
Also a valid argument, I just feel that so early in the game the wolves can't afford to not be aiming at Gifteds.

The fact that so few people commented on it as it was ongoing surprises me - it felt like such a big thing! But it was mostly just a vocal Cobbler doing her best to incite a flame war.
I'll be honest and say it's something I've seen before with at least Rikae and I think that's true of a few players here.

What jumped out to me from that? I think Pitchwife is as suspicious as all get-out, for when and how he voiced his suspicions and placed his vote. Lommy flipflops (sorry, considers both sides). Both Legate and Lottie talk about lynching Brinn for information, which I don't much like on a Day 1 this busy. And if Eonwe is a wolf who masterminded the wagon and then didn't even need to climb on it (switching to a vote-the-absentee strategy on Urwen), then he pulled it off with masterful skill.
Is all this based on simply the fact that people went after Brinn? Given we don't know her role can such firm suspicions really be drawn at this point. If she'd been lynched and had turned out to be innocent I think this would all deserve a bit more credence.

I thought they looked dodgy at the end of yesterDay. After so heavily going after G55, they failed to vote that way. I wondered if a Rikae-wolf hadn't started picking up the Cobblerishness.
(I edited for pronouns again) This is about Rikae in response to Lottie saying Rikae would likely have been presumed innocent toDay. Interesting that even hypothetically there may have been two sides to this.

Just a thought about the QT vote - there are now two players in that thread and one is a cobbler. It's highly unlikely G55 will cooperate with Rikae and I believe if I'm right, in the case of a tie, G55 swings the vote. So while she may not know who the wolves are, we will all have to take that vote with a grain of salt.
Agreed, but at least it's only one vote in still a very large village.

In her vote, Gala mentions other things, but following her posts, she very much started going after Rikae because they misrepresented something I said, thus exaggerating her suspicion of me. That's what everything spiraled out of control from. Gala must have thought Rikae was gifted, it makes no sense that she would go after them like that over that little reason if it was otherwise. A cobbler’s life isn’t worth much, but they tend to not go kamikaze this early without purpose.

Maybe she got hunter or ranger vibes from something, possible, but:
- it’s not unreasonable that seer-Rikae would pick me as their first dream.
- if you’re the seer and you know a wolf, what do you do? Keep quiet? Drop hints? Go all out and accuse? Try to subtly steer the village into lynching that wolf?
The way Rikae suspected me could fit the latter. Gala tried to associate herself with me several times, which makes me suspect that Gala thought so as well, a cobbler trying to reach out to who she thought was a wolf.
I'm not quite following the idea that G55 would have purposefully tried to associate with Mac if he is a wolf, when a Cobbler has no way of knowing who the wolves are, and presumably doesn't want to draw attention to anyone they think might be one.

So I found Pitch slightly suspicious yesterDay because he picked on Legate who if innocent, could be easy to build a case against. I did back off some on the suspicions, as I sensed a bandwagon building on him and if he were innocent, could be the work of wolves and didn't want to be caught up in it (which is apparently the post that several including Rikae found to be suspicious).
In terms of a Pitch-wagon building up as you say, who were you finding worrisome in the mix? You ended up voting G55 to save yourself, which I said earlier is entirely natural whatever a person's role, so if there hadn't been the need, would your vote still have gone to Pitch?

One thing that I don't think people have really addressed toDay is that Pitch was seriously on the chopping block yesterDay and then managed to get taken out of the running, and a large part of that was G55 becoming an eligible vote candidate due to Zil and Lottie.
When I was going through the votes earlier this whole section involved a LOT of cross voting. Kitanna and Inzil's votes were cross posted and so Pitch and G55 were still equally in the running at that point. Lottie's vote was the first clear one to put G55 one ahead.

When I was suspicious of both Brinn and Loslote of drifting into the shadow of Rikae-G55 debate, Loslote was the one out of the two who began defending themselves. A villager is probably gonna show anxiety on small things like when they replied to you, semantics and word choice, etc. not immediately what you’re accusing them of. At that point, they just want to prove themselves.
I can't quite tell whether you're saying that Lottie defending herself makes you think she is more likely to be an innocent or not.

One thing I'm wondering about is the very very late timing of the G55 reveal. The options, at increasing levels of bluff, seem to be:

She was trying to get an innocent Brinn killed.
She wanted us to believe (1), but actually thought Brinn was an Infector and knew it was too late.
She wanted us to believe (2), but actually thought that Brinn was innocent and wants us to suspect her by assuming (2) is true.

I think she just wanted to 1) save herself possibly (and in doing so, sacrifice Brinn which just says she didn't think her a particularly likely wolf), 2) possibly flush out the real ranger, and 3) cause chaos. Why not do it earlier? Maybe she didn't think she'd actually get lynched, or it didn't cross her mind until then. I wouldn't spend too much time on this.
And at the point she revealed, there were two more people to vote, and as Lal has now said if she'd appeared in that moment she would likely have voted Brinn in order to save the 'Ranger' and along with sally's vote that would have been G55 saved to presumably continue causing chaos the following day. So it could have had big ramifications.

It wasn't that the vote for Brinn didn't come with a decent argument, it was it looked so obviously like he didn't want to tangle himself in an LGP bandwagon. Looking at the voting table, when he voted G55 was ahead and his vote tied Brinn though it wouldn't have mattered since first vote of a tie dies. I'm not sure how cross-posted his vote was though. He may not have known that his would tie up votes.
About Mac. Not a cross vote as far as I could tell when I looked at all the votes, and yes even with the tie it wouldn't have caused Brinn to be lynched if those had been the last votes.

It could hardly have stayed hidden. Thing is, the only way she could have known G55 wasn't who she claimed was if she was the Ranger herself. If that's the case, why on Arda would Rikae have been a better target over Kit (unless the Wolves indeed were antsy Rikae might be the Seer)?
See this is why I didn't really mention Kit in the voting round up. It was one strong reaction, but given the assumptions it raised, not bringing that to the forefront seemed more sensible. I'm assuming you're thinking that her being alive still suggests the reaction isn't a sign of ... what I thought we all thought it was a sign of!

Also, if Kit is NOT the Ranger and the wolves decided to sacrifice her in order to draw out the real Ranger, I would implore the real Ranger to NOT come out just to expose her. I agree that I am hugely suspicious of Zil and, to a lesser degree, Lhuna and Pitch for continuing to talk about it. Drawing attention to it doesn't help the village at all.
I'm wary that any of this conversation really happened. And still seems to be happening even onto a new page after it was first brought up and then it was suggested that perhaps it be left alone.

[Huinesoron]

Have looked over Mac's #405, and I don't like it. He seems to be focussing heavily on the people who suspect him, and explaining why that must make them wolves. Okay, I've read enough Werewolf to know that innocents do this, but a) so do wolves, and with a good deal more urgency, and b) didn't Mac spend a big post early toDay explaining how he thinks G55 thought he was a wolf? He even brings it up again here.

And yes, there are more details, but with the amount of words that have been thrown around you can build some kind of case against everyone. The fact remains that his case against Greenie relies heavily on 'this is exactly how I’d expect a Green wolf to act'.

At the moment, my vote would probably go to Mac or Pitch. Pitch has been looking better toDay, but as I said (earlier toDay, I think?), I tend to read him as reasonable when he's responding to me anyway. So I need to go back and read him over again.

Lommy has... has she been posting? Right, a bit at the end of page 9, and onto 10. That explains why she hasn't struck me as suspicious for a while - she's not been here? I'll look over her as well, but my memory is that I've felt slightly better about her toDay.

The Zil/Lottie connection seems to have evaporated, so I'm tentatively calling Lottie innocent (and see no reason to change my earlier placing of Greenie and Legate in that category). Zil has... wow, has really been pushing this Kit-discussion, hasn't he? Leaning against trusting him still.

Crossposts from people named above: Lommy is back and, oh stars, literally saying 'flip-flopping'. :D But I think I'm getting a feel for her style, and this doesn't feel wolfish. I'll still reread to check what I was worried about before (too many villagers, I can't remember who did what!)

Zil has posted with... a short, zero-content post. 'Short' seems to be his style, but #412 does take it to extremes. Overtones of 'let me drop back into the shadows'. So I stand by my 'wolfish' read.

(Crossed with everything from #409.)

hS

[Eönwë]

Seems fine for now (won't vote unless something changes)

Shastanis Althreduin - As said above, seems innocent or a VERY bold wolf.

Satansaloser2005 - Haven't seen much of her, but what I have doesn't seem suspicious.

THE Ka - She seemed good yesterDay, and hasn't done much to change that.

Huinesoron - Nothing pinging any alarm bells so far. Lots of well-thought-out posts.

Lalaith - Not enough to go on, but nothing seems bad yet.

Lhunardawen - Making good points, seems to generally be on the side of the village.

A Little Green - Seems fine so far.




Wary of (Probably wouldn't vote unless something changes)

Rune Son of Bjarne - Maybe his suspicions and self-proclaimed bias against me have me watch him more carefully/too closely, but I don't suspect him enough to vote for him.

Kath - Something about her recent posts have given me wolfy vibes, so I'm watching her closely.



Dangerous (Could vote, but not my first choice)
Kitanna - Not sure what to think of her now, but I haven't taken her off the hook completely.

Legate of Amon Lanc
Pitchwife
Brinniel
Macalaure
Inziladun


Alarm bells (Would vote)

Thinlómien - She's seemed more possibly wolfy to me toDay. One thing is that she seems to have backed off from Boro without much warning - maybe afraid that a manufactured Boro suspicion was gaining too much traction?

Boromir88 - I don't like his list ignoring non Brinn/G55 voters, or in fact that post as whole - it exonerates him a lot by implication - he's not on the list, and he says that the first vote for someone is innocent (which he did, but isn't available on the list). Also, see Lommy.



To look into (No idea)
Loslote - She hasn't set off any alarm bells yet for me, but I've seen her mentioned as suspicious quite a bit. Boro suspects her for her vote yesterDay (#324), and Lommy thinks she's 'looking at things from a very wolfy pov' (#387). Whether this is real or manufactured suspicion remains to be seen, and I'm going to have to reread her posts to see if I agree.




Note: sorry, I have very limited time again toDay, and hopefully will be able to post more later. I have to leave right now. Unfortunately, this means I have to leave those last few names in the Dangerous section uncommented - some might get upgraded to the Alarm Bells category when I get a chance to look at them more deeply, but I didn't want to put them there without further reflection.



edit: x-ed since Lottie's #404

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate had already condemned the people who brought up Kit, so when I also brought it up, he thinks it's jumping on the bandwagon. Which is all somewhat fair, except that it was my genuine first reaction to seeing someone keep talking about a slip until the Ranger was forced to straight up admit it - this is very suspicious! Yeah, I wasn't the first to mention it, but I'm not going to avoid saying that I think it's suspicious just because I wasn't the first person to see it go down and say something about it.

I was not referring to you speaking about that one thing, but about everything. Boro, Mac. Everything that has been deemed "controversial by the public". I am not saying these can't be genuine suspicions, but these are all things you can then easily pick up if a bandwagon starts on either of them - and they all seem like they easily could.

EDIT: x-ed with multiple again and took out something I accidentally quoted

[Thinlómien]

++Macalaure

Can I now say "let's make this more interesting"? :p

But seriously though, someone's gotta start, and it might as well be me since I have a clear main suspect and he's had a chance to defend himself but I didn't really buy it.

Will continue to pop in and out until the DL!


edit: xed with Legate

[Loslote]

I was not referring to you speaking about that one thing, but about everything. Boro, Mac. Everything that has been deemed "controversial by the public". I am not saying these can't be genuine suspicions, but these are all things you can then easily pick up if a bandwagon starts on either of them - and they all seem like they easily could.

With Boro that's again probably fair. However with Mac, I had been suspicious of him yesterDay, and I've mentioned it a few times. One thing you are right about is that I haven't spent the time to really look at the quieter players. Most of the people I suspect right now are the louder players who have done things that are obviously suspicious. I'll do my best to take a look at the players who are currently flying under my radar. I may even do a list, though I've tried once or twice and just found the sheer size of the village and the number of people I have no read on a little overwhelming.

[Kitanna]

Shasta
Post #63: Banter about cobbler
Post #64: Banter about Lady Macbeth
Post #65: +1 for Inzil. I assume one point for a comeback...?
Post #66: Likes something Lottie says about a no lynch idea from G55.
Post #67: Says he's contributed enough to look like he's particpating. Says he'd vote for Lommy. But clearly a joke.
Post #175: Returns from his slumber to let us know here's reading through.
Post #188: Based on nothing more than this description of events I'd speculate on Cobbler-G55 and Innocent-Rikae. My opinion may change after I get context.
*stares into the nothingness of the void to make sense of his accuracy*
Post #190: Responds to a Lottie, one I believe is about keeping an eye on Brinn
Post #191: Reiterates finding Rikae innocent and G55 cobblerish. Also finds some suspcion in Pitch/Eonwe
Post #192: Asks for more context on a Pitch post
Post #197: Digs in on Greenie's analysis. Going so far as to say an evil Greenie might mean an evil Ka. Most of the post is just benign reponses to what Greenie said of everyone.
Post #198: Responds to a comment from Pitch
Post #201: Likes a post Ka made.
Post #204: Of those with votes, I won't vote for Rikae, could vote for Brinn or Pitch, and probably won't be voting for G55 unless it's to save someone I think is innocent.
Post #207: Gives an opinion on Greenie. Did agree with some of her points, but also didn't on others. Seemed to be someone he thought warranted watching, but didn't outright suspect.
Post #211: Response to a Greenie
Post #215: Makes a bad pun/dad joke. I point to the door of my office and yell "get out" to no one.
Post #229: Time check for self based on Inzil's comment about "last night?!"
Post #233: Response to Pitch
Post #239: Votes Pitch
Post #248: Not comfortable with Greenie or Eonwe's votes.
Post #322: I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did. This is before all those posts close together popped up about my comments toward the fake reveal.
Shasta hasn't been back since. A few others have mentioned feeling ok or good about him. To me, I mean, seems genuine in his short posts, but I'm finding it hard to truly sort him out.

[Brinniel]

In terms of a Pitch-wagon building up as you say, who were you finding worrisome in the mix? You ended up voting G55 to save yourself, which I said earlier is entirely natural whatever a person's role, so if there hadn't been the need, would your vote still have gone to Pitch?
Between the three, Boro for his flimsy reasoning and Kit because her case against him could be opportunistic and the timing of her vote (was looking to be the start of another bandwagon). I don't like Shasta's vote either, but find it less worrisome.

Ideally, I would've voted Inzil or Kit for the reasons I mentioned yesterDay. But between Pitch and G55, yes I would've preferred Pitch as I thought him more suspicious than her.

[Kitanna]

I have spent more time on WW than my actual job today. Oops. I get done an hour before DL and hope to get more analysis done then.

[Lhunardawen]

Last few thoughts before I vote. It's waaay too late here already. :(

So I found Pitch slightly suspicious yesterDay because he picked on Legate who if innocent, could be easy to build a case against. I did back off some on the suspicions, as I sensed a bandwagon building on him and if he were innocent, could be the work of wolves and didn't want to be caught up in it (which is apparently the post that several including Rikae found to be suspicious).
Wait let me see if I get this right. If Legate is innocent it could be easy to build a case against him, so you suspected Pitch because he picked on Legate. Then you eased up on suspecting Pitch because you did not want to be caught in a bandwagon that could be orchestrated by wolves.

I'm just... Lost. Shouldn't one back off from suspecting someone because of what they said, not because you're worried about what others would think if you end up voting for an innocent? Not helping your case here.

I'm in the camp that finds Eönwë's vote yesterDay suspicious, and his posts so far today don't ease that feeling.
One thing that I don't think people have really addressed toDay is that Pitch was seriously on the chopping block yesterDay and then managed to get taken out of the running, and a large part of that was G55 becoming an eligible vote candidate due to Zil and Lottie.
But also take into account that (at least) Lottie's vote was consistent with her suspicions all Day. It's also odd that you agreed with Boro about Zil and Lottie's votes and then suspect him for pointing it out.

Might vote for one of these toDay:
Mac but almost too out there a choice, I'm finding his posts difficult to reconcile with what I know of an InfectedMac
Lommy
Brinn

Bears looking at more closely:
Boro
Kath
Huin
Zil
Kit
Eönwë

Everyone else, either I can't put a finger on or flying off my radar or there's just not enough space/energy for now.

[THE Ka]

As to why Rikae for the Night kill, I would assume the wolves were gunning for someone they thought might be the Seer. It would seem foolish for them not to always be aiming for a Gifted. Trying to set up frame jobs is all well and good in theory but their aim surely has to be to get rid of the greatest danger towards them.

Due to her confidence of play style and zeal? You could easily argue that Kit could make it onto the ‘possible Seer’ list as well for wolves for similar reasons. Lommy could come in as a possible third on such a list due to the proximity of her interactions with the main popular suspects.

I’m not really getting the hint they had a belief in Rikae being a gifted such as a Seer, but possibly another gifted role and barring that, settled with if Rikae was an innocent then they’d want them out of the way to play on other’s bias of who was most critical of them (sans G55) and knowing that there might not be another innocent who'd engage as eagerly with Rikae (thus causing some bait to see who would be an easy pick) in an argument.

*raises on eyebrow* I don't love how he continually brings up himself as mewolf and crafts a conspiracy theory around wolves setting him up.

It is curious that Mac has increased this this type of semi-joking argument toDay. Yesterday based on actions I could understand the flighty tone he answered questions laid at him about his ‘lists’, but this is as if he’s trying to rehearse a story by telling and talking about himself over and over and then feigning ‘usual paranoia’.
So, why does Mac want to be a point of attention?

Who benefits from Mac’s performance is really what I’m wondering.

Also, if Kit is NOT the Ranger and the wolves decided to sacrifice her in order to draw out the real Ranger, I would implore the real Ranger to NOT come out just to expose her.

Why… why would the real Ranger do that on the end of Day 2?

Ranger is arguably one of the more key gifted roles next to Seer. You’d want to remain concealed as much as possible in order to see from the game Day who you need to protect that Night.
If someone pretends to be your role? Oh well. You can’t immediately go after them the next Day in game without drawing obvious attention.
G55 throwing out there last minute about ‘But I’m a Ranger!’ was as duping delight as a cobbler could get. :rolleyes:

[Kath]

I'm sorry, I'm very short on time toDay and won't be back again before the deadline so I need to vote now. I've skim read since my last post just to get the general gist of where everyone is but haven't looked at anything much in detail.

The person jumping out to me right now is Inzil and it's because of the Kit thing. So I'm being a total hypocrite by talking about it again.

It could hardly have stayed hidden. Thing is, the only way she could have known G55 wasn't who she claimed was if she was the Ranger herself. If that's the case, why on Arda would Rikae have been a better target over Kit (unless the Wolves indeed were antsy Rikae might be the Seer)?
Since we're now talking about it, assuming Kit is the Ranger, the only reason I can see for the wolves going after Rikae instead of her is that they thought she was the Seer. This felt clear to me from the top of the Day.

That's what I can't fathom. Does it give Rikae-as-possible-Seer more weight? Or could it point to a very bold Kitwolf?
Ok, maybe it's because I am taking the Kit thing at face value, but then because of that I'm not sure about this push for a Kitwolf theory. It was picked up on and Inzil quickly dropped it.

And then he seemed quite defensive when people said that they didn't like it all being brought up.

++INZIL

[Loslote]

Feel good about
Legate - I wasn't sure yesterDay, but his posts toDay give me an innocent vibe.
Kitanna - If she's lying, we'll find out eventually. For now I see no reason to distrust her.
Shasta - I really like how he handled the Kit situation, trying to defuse it without drawing attention to it.

Feel okay about
Greenie - I've liked some of her points, and I feel like she's being very helpful. I don't have a strong enough sense of her to put her in the "good" category, though.
Huinesoron - I like the way he's thinking about the game, which makes me feel generally okay about him. I do see some of the points people have made about his summaries not always being completely accurate, though, and that's something to keep an eye on - in particular, do his summaries end up resulting in a cohesive misleading campaign?
Lhuna - I've liked what I've seen so far toDay. She seems to be helpful and thoughtful.
Brinniel - I didn't get any sense at the deadline yesterDay that any wolves were trying to swing the vote away from her. Moreover, I've been getting an innocent vibe from her. I don't want to assume innocence, though, so I won't let my feeling that wolves were not trying to save her push her into the "good" category. I could be wrong - a lot of people get a very different feeling from her - but I don't suspect her at this point.

Feel dubious about
Pitchwife - I go back and forth on Pitch. I got a wolfy vibe yesterDay, and I'm torn on his involvement with the Kit-Zil thing earlier. I don't have him at the top of my suspicion list, but I don't trust him either.
Lommy - I get a vaguely positive vibe from her, but then I end up disagreeing with most of what she actually says. I don't know if we're just coming from very different perspectives, but I end up not knowing what to think about her.

Feel bad about
Zil - He'd been largely flying under the radar for me, right up until he pointed out the Kit thing, which I found highly suspicious. I don't know what motivation an innocent would have in bringing it up. I could easily see that being something the wolves planned out over Night.
Boro - I haven't been comfortable with his posts toDay. Like Lommy, he could just be approach this from a completely opposite perspective than I am, but I get a bad feeling from him.
Mac - I started to be suspicious of him yesterDay, and his posts today have been worrying. Specifically, his posts about being framed felt a little pre-planned to me - like he knew Rikae was going to die and had time to work himself up about their death implicating him.

Feel nothing about
Kath - I think what I've seen has been pretty reasonable, but she's flying under my radar. Almost put her in "okay", but I don't have a strong enough feeling.
Lalaith - ditto Kath - what I've seen has felt fine, but I haven't gotten a really good sense.
Eönwë - I haven't seen enough to get a feeling one way or the other.
Rune - No read at all, I'd almost be inclined to put him in "dubious" just based on a vague feeling but it's not strong enough or based on anything, so I'll reserve judgement until I have a better read.
THE Ka - ditto Kath and Lalaith - seems helpful, but flying under my radar.
Sally - I haven't seen enough from her to get a good reading on her yet, totally under my radar.

I don't like how many people I don't have a read on, but in such a big village, it's hard to get a sense from everyone. I will probably vote for someone in my 'bad feeling' category, unless someone in my 'dubious' or 'no feeling' categories does something particularly suspicious.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, reading over my main suspects (Mac, Pitch, Lommy, Zil, in that order for now):

Mac: Thought innocent yesterDay, but realised today that was down to not trusting the way people were suspecting him, when those people were a (now) known and a probable innocent. ToDay, launched straight into 'what if everyone thinks I'm a wolf', and starts in on Kitanna, which is an interesting line in view of, y'know... Kitanna. And he keeps trying to implicate the people who suspect him. I really don't like this.

Pitchwife: My chief suspect yesterDay, for his actions in the GLP & several 'just asking questions' posts; also his position on the Brinn-wagon (both suspicion and voting). Launches toDay with "this may implicate Brinn, except isn't that almost too obvious?" - I'm starting to view this less as 'just asking questions', and more as 'they will say both no and yes'. He suspects Zil with no explanation (at the time), and later pushes both the start and the stop of the Kit discussion, including one 'saw it as I was writing' crosspost that makes me feel like his post was intended to take credit for starting the 'let's shut it down' discussion.

Lommy: My second suspect yesterDay, mostly for reasons of tone I think. ToDay, she seems a lot better. #350 is a good example of this - she's not sitting there saying 'yes, but maybe no', she's analysing the evidence for both (all) sides of the discussion. And she's cast the first vote, too.

Zil: Completely off my radar yesterDay; it's those short posts of his. Today, spent a fair few posts talking about things we know aren't true, such as Rikae-wolf; even more posts on the Kit discussion; really, I'm seeing a lot of posts where Zil's contribution is shorter than what he's replying to! It may be just his style, so he's not top of my list, but he does look (at least at times) like a wolf trying to look active without having to say much.

I'm starting to worry I might just trust people who write long posts on multiple topics. :-/

Okay, at the moment I'm likely to vote Mac, but will take Pitch as still looking about as suspicious as yesterday (Mac's just more suspicious). Lommy I'm going to call neutral for now. Zil I think there's a better-than-even chance is a wolf.

At the moment, two of my top three have 1 vote each. It's going to be interesting to see who gets offered up to take the heat off them...

hS

[Pitchwife]

Since we're now talking about it, assuming Kit is the Ranger, the only reason I can see for the wolves going after Rikae instead of her is that they thought she was the Seer.
THIS. Which points to either Mac or Brinn (not both, I think - Mac voted Brinn at a point where the Galwagon was well on the way, no particular danger to him and no need to bus a packmate). Finding out Mac's role will also shed a light on Brinn.


Right now my vote could go to either Mac or Zil.

[Lhunardawen]

Why… why would the real Ranger do that on the end of Day 2?

Ranger is arguably one of the more key gifted roles next to Seer. You’d want to remain concealed as much as possible in order to see from the game Day who you need to protect that Night.
If someone pretends to be your role? Oh well. You can’t immediately go after them the next Day in game without drawing obvious attention.
EXACTLY. Thank you.

Can barely keep my eyes open anymore, so

++THINLÓMIEN

Parting shot: Friendly reminder, a bandwagon does not start with the first vote.

[Loslote]

THIS. Which points to either Mac or Brinn (not both, I think - Mac voted Brinn at a point where the Galwagon was well on the way, no particular danger to him and no need to bus a packmate). Finding out Mac's role will also shed a light on Brinn.

Right now my vote could go to either Mac or Zil.

My inclination would be to vote Zil, but I like this argument for learning more about Brinn's role by voting Mac. I could go either way.

[Brinniel]

Wait let me see if I get this right. If Legate is innocent it could be easy to build a case against him, so you suspected Pitch because he picked on Legate. Then you eased up on suspecting Pitch because you did not want to be caught in a bandwagon that could be orchestrated by wolves.

I'm just... Lost. Shouldn't one back off from suspecting someone because of what they said, not because you're worried about what others would think if you end up voting for an innocent? Not helping your case here.

Yes, and that post got me in a lot of trouble yesterDay, however, I stand by it. I didn't back off of him because of what people might think of me - I was more concerned that I was being manipulated by the wolves.

I have spent more time on WW than my actual job today.
I feel you here. And most of my time is spent trying to play catch up!

[Macalaure]

He seems to be focussing heavily on the people who suspect him, and explaining why that must make them wolves.
I made 7 quotes in that post, 4 of which were from people who suspected me.
I talked about 6 people, 3 of which suspected me, 2 of which I suspect in turn.

Yeah, that post focuses on that a bit more than it should, but your summary is not honest.


Anyway, I’ve been meaning to clear my mind suspicion wise.

Seem innocent
Kath
THE Ka

Seem innocent-ish
Kitanna
Pitch

Wary, but not worried too much
Legate - he seems more scattered than usual, maybe that’s just me
Huin - seems very helpful and productive, but sometimes feels odd
Boro - kind of like that, too
Brinniel - torn right here

Like heck do I know (this is the part I gotta work on trimming down)
Loslote
Lhuna
Inzil
Lalaith
Eonwe
Rune
Sally
Shasta

Alarm bells
Lommy -
Greenie - not because they suspect me (I know I set myself up to be suspected the way I’ve acted), but because the way they do it is sketchy as hell

[Loslote]

Also, to address this quickly:

Why… why would the real Ranger do that on the end of Day 2?

Ranger is arguably one of the more key gifted roles next to Seer. You’d want to remain concealed as much as possible in order to see from the game Day who you need to protect that Night.
If someone pretends to be your role? Oh well. You can’t immediately go after them the next Day in game without drawing obvious attention.
G55 throwing out there last minute about ‘But I’m a Ranger!’ was as duping delight as a cobbler could get. :rolleyes:

I saw that whole thing happening, realized I was caught up, and my first thought was, "Okay, Kit isn't a wolf. But. Wait. If Kit IS a wolf after all, what would be the point of revealing? To draw out the real Ranger. I should make sure that doesn't happen, just in case!" Now, was that necessary? Probably not, it seems pretty obvious. But at the time, it seemed important to say.

[Boromir88]

Ok, so reading has caught up to date. I made brief notes on things that were addressed to me.

Respond to saying sally's vote looked suspicious:

sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.

I honestly can't tell you my point was here...other than temporary bout of conspiracy theory. It was late for me, I was exhausted, went to bed hungry and had a lapse that was focused more on sleeping than making sense. For whatever it's worth, it's not a suspicious vote. I'm personally feeling better today and sally looks trusty.

Respond to Greenie:

Why? I’m a little uneasy about Eonwe’s vote too as he’s been very cautious in general and that vote was, as Lommy and Lottie have pointed out, an easy way to keep his hands clean. But whether G55 was the cobbler or the ranger shouldn’t really impact an assessment of Eonwe because an Eonwolf wouldn’t know what she was, aside from “not wolf”.

True, but not so much that EonWolf wouldn't have known G55's specific role. It's more a throw away vote that could have been useful to prevent a ranger from getting lynched I would zero in and want to pay far more attention to. A throw away vote that didn't matter in the lynch of a cobbler I'm not going to worry about.

If that doesn't quite explain it well enough, for further understanding of why I'm not interested in throw away votes that didn't matter to a cobbler being lynched...see my next point below.

Response to Legate and Eonwe's accusations with my focus on the G55/Brinn wagons.

In all seriousness, am I the only one who's frustrated by the thought of thousands of paths and leads going every which way? One person can't possibly consider everything that you expect me to consider. I forget who, someone said we have a boring/unadventurous wolf pack. I think we have 5 wolves pulling things in 500 different ways and some are vocal leading the paths, others are laying low/joining in to different paths.

I'm one person. Right? I can't consider everything and to lump it on my desk "Boro didn't look at this" "Boro didn't look at that", is just flat wrong. "That must mean he's saying there can't be a wolf in the non-G55/Brinn voters." No, I didn't say that at all and that looks straight up suspicious. I just said I wasn't going to look into it. You went and looked into it. Great. Thank you. Seriously, thank you. It means I can look at what you say and make some judgements about you and the non-G55/Brinn voters.

Edit: crossed with a bunch

[Pitchwife]

Lottie, how is it that my involvement in the Zil-Kit thing is suspicious, whereas Lhuna, who was also involved (and made sure to point the issue out in case somebody had overlooked Zil's ealier post?) is 'helpful and thoughtful'?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Home and catching up.

A thought I thought last night before bed - a possible reason for a Rikae kill is that they were onto something with their train of thought re: the anti-Brinn wagon. Weigh in, please.

[Loslote]

Lottie, how is it that my involvement in the Zil-Kit thing is suspicious, whereas Lhuna, who was also involved (and made sure to point the issue out in case somebody had overlooked Zil's ealier post?) is 'helpful and thoughtful'?

That's a good point, and I earlier did put both of you in that category, but it didn't come to mind when making the list. That's probably a bias on my end - I already suspected you and that added to that suspicion, whereas I didn't already suspect Lhuna and so it didn't stick in my mind. Thanks for pointing that out, I should look back at that with (hopefully) a less biased frame of mind!

[Lalaith]

Ok I wasn't going to say anything about The Kit Thing but seeing as it's being openly discussed - *glares at certain people* -
Could the people who are still putting Kit in the 'slightly/fairly' suspicious category please explain to me - how would a Kitwolf know G55 was lying about being a Ranger? All a Kitwolf would know was that G55 was not a wolf.

[THE Ka]

Finding out Mac's role will also shed a light on Brinn.

Beginning to suspect the same. Would I vote Mac based on his individual words alone? Nope. Could I vote for Mac just to flush out who needs him out? High possibility, but it would depend on identifying who needs him out and if they won’t benefit from him acting next Day as well.

As I said in a previous post, it’s more curious to me why Mac wants to be associated with suspicion, why he keeps repeating his tale to us, etc. The problem I have is trying to figure out who benefits from Mac not only being suspicious, but later possibly being voted toDay into a (and I guess I’ll say it…) Macwagon. Wolves could easily hide in a pushed vote for Mac since he’s becoming a wonderful distraction along with Zil’s continued interest in Kit.
I need to go back for earlier toDay and see who could be nudging him along.

I saw that whole thing happening, realized I was caught up, and my first thought was, "Okay, Kit isn't a wolf. But. Wait. If Kit IS a wolf after all, what would be the point of revealing? To draw out the real Ranger. I should make sure that doesn't happen, just in case!" Now, was that necessary? Probably not, it seems pretty obvious. But at the time, it seemed important to say.

So, a knee-jerk reaction due to the DL and if there was a Kitwolf they were being really bold knowing there was only minutes to go before Night?
That could be possible, if they were an especially bold wolf. So far though, it appears our wolves have been rather quiet or they’re just carefully watching how we’re reacting to better tailor their defense. If one of them has agreed to be bold, I could see that as well.

[Thinlómien]

It is curious that Mac has increased this this type of semi-joking argument toDay. Yesterday based on actions I could understand the flighty tone he answered questions laid at him about his ‘lists’, but this is as if he’s trying to rehearse a story by telling and talking about himself over and over and then feigning ‘usual paranoia’.
So, why does Mac want to be a point of attention?

Who benefits from Mac’s performance is really what I’m wondering. Well, if Mac is a wolf, he clearly started the Day with the mindset that he's a lost cause because Rikae's death points to him anyway so perhaps he could then at least do his packmates a service by trying to attract as much attention as possible? I still don't understand why macwolf would be this paranoid/suicidal, but I see even less reason for ordomac to act this way.

++THINLÓMIEN

Parting shot: Friendly reminder, a bandwagon does not start with the first vote. Umm, why? And a very ominous parting shot to accompany it. I don't like this one bit. "Fellow wolves, rally here, wink wink nudge nudge?"


edit: xed with THE Ka

[Brinniel]

I find myself sort of agreeing with Lottie's suspect list. Should I be worried? :eek:

Inzil I have found a bit fishy from the start, and toDay's posts aren't helping.

I did not like Boro's vote yesterDay or his behavior toDay. It's awfully bold of him to presume I'm a wolf based on reasons outside of my posting - and I wouldn't rule him out as a bold wolf.

Mac I'm a little more torn about. There are some posts of his I actually like, including his thoughts on Greenie. However he seems nervous toDay, which is generally suspicious. And I'm also still a bit wary of his posts from the second half of yesterDay.

[Brinniel]

A thought I thought last night before bed - a possible reason for a Rikae kill is that they were onto something with their train of thought re: the anti-Brinn wagon. Weigh in, please.
Wasn't really thinking of it regarding Night kill, but I do think a wolf could possibly be hidden there. Their hands would look a little cleaner compared to others if I were lynched, thus proven innocent. It the reason I am slightly worried about Hui.

Parting shot: Friendly reminder, a bandwagon does not start with the first vote.
I don't necessarily agree. Bandwagons can start when players start discussing suspicion and their intention to vote for someone. A first vote could piggyback on that.

[Macalaure]

Inzil and Lottie have the highest post count so far. How did they end up under my radar? Reread Inzil’s posts and…

Inzil chattered a lot on various strategies and general things at the beginning yesterDay. Even when he does put out some suspicions, they don’t seem very heavy. This could point to a wolf going with the flow and not bugging anyone, but I feel like a wolf would be more self-conscious about seeming too fluffy.

ToDay he starts out feeling reasonable to me, but the Kitanna/ranger/wolf stuff is a… surprising path to go down on. He thinks Rikae was targeted as seer but doesn’t seem to draw any conclusions from that.

Half an eyebrow raised, mostly because he just doesn't feel sinister to me, despite everything.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Sorry busy workday, traffic and a baby that wouldn't sleep got has kept me busy.

I will do my best to get up to speed, and post shortly.

[Huinesoron]

Inzil and Lottie have the highest post count so far.

Zil has one of the highest post counts? o.O How is that possibly true?

I think that raises him from 'moderate' to 'probable' wolf in my estimation. Sadly for Mac, with both of them having a vote, it doesn't make me think he himself is less suspicious - accusing your packmate right before one of you gets lynched sounds like a great way to alleviate suspicion of them.

hS

[Macalaure]

If you think I'm a wolf, by all means, vote for me.

If you want to lynch me just get info on others... that's terrible and plays right into the wolves' hand. ToMorrow everybody will say "Oh dear, Mac was an ordo, but hey, he was acting so suspicious you can't fault anyone for voting for him." and it was a waste of a lynch.

*scolds*

[Loslote]

Zil has one of the highest post counts? o.O How is that possibly true?

I think that raises him from 'moderate' to 'probable' wolf in my estimation. Sadly for Mac, with both of them having a vote, it doesn't make me think he himself is less suspicious - accusing your packmate right before one of you gets lynched sounds like a great way to alleviate suspicion of them.

His post about Zil doesn't feel like a full on distancing attack, though. It felt more like laying groundwork, since Mac will probably have to vote for Zil eventually, but I didn't think it was a full on "Look, we can't possibly be packmates" kind of attack.

[Kitanna]

A 15 minute break is not enough time to do anything.


Since we're now talking about it, assuming Kit is the Ranger, the only reason I can see for the wolves going after Rikae instead of her is that they thought she was the Seer.
THIS. Which points to either Mac or Brinn (not both, I think - Mac voted Brinn at a point where the Galwagon was well on the way, no particular danger to him and no need to bus a packmate). Finding out Mac's role will also shed a light on Brinn.
I agree with this assessment and think a lot of light will be shed.
I am leaning more toward Mac based on my assessment earlier, but I don't feel overly confident in casting that vote. Too bad Day isn't 48 hours, then maybe I could catch up. :rolleyes:
My biggest problem is, there are some loud people I haven't been able to comb through. Huin, Pitch, Boro, Lottie, and Legate all stand out as people I think I should look at closer.
Huin has come off as level-headed and reasonable throughout, but every so often there's a comment as I skim that makes me raise an eyebrow.
Boro, from past experience I know him to be wily (heh heh heh), but I haven't paid him much heed beyond his "boo lists" followed by lists posts.
Legate, had slight suspicions of him because of his post #88, that rubbed me wrong, but other things came to light after that, forcing him from my mind.
Pitch, same thing with Legate. I voted for him because he was my most likely candidate at the time and then toDay, I haven't dedicated time to him.
Lottie, I just let her float under my radar this whole time. Which could be said for Rune and Lommy too.

[Macalaure]

Zil has one of the highest post counts? o.O How is that possibly true?

I think that raises him from 'moderate' to 'probable' wolf in my estimation. Sadly for Mac, with both of them having a vote, it doesn't make me think he himself is less suspicious - accusing your packmate right before one of you gets lynched sounds like a great way to alleviate suspicion of them.

hS

To quote Pitch... *ping*

Accusing my packmate right before he gets lynched? I'm not accusing him - I said I'm not very suspicious of him! And people wonder why I'm feeling framed!

Not to mention, what does his post count have to do with anything?

[Huinesoron]

Okay, as stated back in #354, I don't know if I'll be around at all later. Since I might be, I don't want to vote now, but in case I'm not, I have a 'emergency late early vote' post stored up on my phone for +-Mac.

If I post anything else between now and DL, you won't be seeing that post, because I'll have had time to see what's changed.

X-post edit: Mac, Zil's post-count is suspicious to me because in my head he's quiet, meaning what he's been doing is flying well under the radar. Quickly rereading your post, I'm seeing a lot of 'both no and yes' from you as well. Not a full accusation, but maybe as much as you thought you could safely do.

hS

[Thinlómien]

Zil has one of the highest post counts? o.O How is that possibly true?

I think that raises him from 'moderate' to 'probable' wolf in my estimation. Sadly for Mac, with both of them having a vote, it doesn't make me think he himself is less suspicious - accusing your packmate right before one of you gets lynched sounds like a great way to alleviate suspicion of them.

hSTo quote Pitch... *ping*

Accusing my packmate right before he gets lynched? I'm not accusing him - I said I'm not very suspicious of him! And people wonder why I'm feeling framed!

Not to mention, what does his post count have to do with anything?Gotta agree with Mac for a sec, this post of Huin's was kinda strange. Also they seem to "know" Mac is going to get lynched toDay, which is very :confused: I mean sure, Mac has been one of the main suspects toDay but it could still go numerous ways with more than 2h to go and merely a handful of votes cast.


edit: xed with Hui

[Macalaure]

++Thinlómien

Unless something stood out to me from my lengthy list of unknown, I was going to vote for Lommy or Greenie toDay. Lommy makes more sense at this point for obvious reasons. The mere fact that I voted for her probably makes it unlikely for her to gather any additional votes. :rolleyes:

People talking as if I'm laying the groundwork for some saving vote is... grinding my gears, shall we say.

Lynch me if you must, I'm going to try and spend the rest of the day getting a clear thought or two and sharing them.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A bit of a list to sort my thoughts...

TOWARDS-THE-RED-END-OF-THE-SPECTRUM-ZONE:

Huinesoron - I said above, is the sort of "I am being very sensible with - possibly - occasionally leaving accusations around in the metaphorical form of unfinished sentence". The consistency of their yesterDay's suspicion would be a plus, on the other hand the vote yesterDay was one of those "I will wait what happens and act accordingly" - which however is something many people would do, regardless of role.

Lottie - explanations accepted, still, my misgivings remain. Now she again did the same thing by basically posting a list of three people she could vote accompanied by something that could be also read as "here, pick out of these, I'll follow suit".

Brinn - remains here, even though similar case to Kit. Although it needs to be said, I dislike how suddenly all the suspicion against her disappeared at the expense of toDay's new suspects. If she's a Wolf and the whole point of everything was to turn people away from her, then it seems to be working.

Lommy - this slid here; I was getting an off-vibe from some of her posts every now and then. I remember at one point I had this brainwave about her and Boro both being Wolves, but I can't for the life of me find anymore why it was. Her very zealous going after Mac is interesting (mainly because Mac leaves me confused rather than suspicious, but whatever), more interesting is her timing of the vote - enough before the QT vote. It sure is a way to avoid having one's vote compared to the QT vote. It may also be a way to send a signal to the Cobbler?

Kitanna - like I said, her lists have made me think better of her, but I am not letting her an absolution just because of that.

Zil - kind of an enigma, and I really didn't like the discussing-Kitanna posts. Keeping an eye out.

Mac - I have absolutely zero idea whether he had just gone crazy-obsessed with himself or what. I would not vote him based on that, but I need to re-check all his posts again, if it's possible.

Greenie - she has been posting this and that way, but there is still something about her I perceive as off.

MIDDLE ZONE:

Pitchwife - not leaning particularly either way. I did not like his and Zil's discussing-Kitanna posts, but his other posts leaned more innocentish than Zil's.

Lhuna - posted some fishy-looking stuff here and there, but I am unable to judge.

Boro - some weird stuff too, but nothing too incriminating.

Eönwë - I should be keeping an eye on him because he seems to be gliding massively under the radar. Also I don't really get some of his reasoning. But ugh, too many people to keep an eye on.

Lalaith - zero idea and I was kinda uneasy about her. If I ever have time, should look into her posts more.

TOWARDS-THE-GREEN-END-OF-SPECTRUM-ZONE(-and-I-know-that's-not-a-thing-in-physics)

Kant - is the most sensibly-posting person in the game and I agree with her about 90% of (at least the generic) stuff, no reason to suspect whatsoever.

Marx - been okay, consistently, nothing much changed since yesterDay.

The KA - awfully long posts, but nothing that would make me uneasy much.

Shasta - decent, nothing to add at the moment.

EDIT: x-ed with somewhere near the start of the page

[Nogrod]

The Quarantine Thread has voted. They vote...

++ Brinniel


Votes (2 hours before the DL)

Lommy -> Macalaure
Kath -> Inzil
Lhuna -> Lommy
Macalaure -> Lommy 2
QT -> Brinniel

[A Little Green]

Thinlómien - She's seemed more possibly wolfy to me toDay. One thing is that she seems to have backed off from Boro without much warning - maybe afraid that a manufactured Boro suspicion was gaining too much traction?
To be fair, I think Boro’s behaviour did change quite noticeably from yesterDay to toDay so Lommy’s change of opinion about him seems justified to me.

So I found Pitch slightly suspicious yesterDay because he picked on Legate who if innocent, could be easy to build a case against. I did back off some on the suspicions, as I sensed a bandwagon building on him and if he were innocent, could be the work of wolves and didn't want to be caught up in it (which is apparently the post that several including Rikae found to be suspiocious).
Wait let me see if I get this right. If Legate is innocent it could be easy to build a case against him, so you suspected Pitch because he picked on Legate. Then you eased up on suspecting Pitch because you did not want to be caught in a bandwagon that could be orchestrated by wolves.

I'm just... Lost. Shouldn't one back off from suspecting someone because of what they said, not because you're worried about what others would think if you end up voting for an innocent? Not helping your case here.
I found this point by Lhuna worth bringing up again. I agree that the reasoning is odd – if Brinn genuinely suspected Pitch, surely she would be inclined to think it was a good thing that others suspected him too? It’s as if we were forgetting that lynching a wolf also requires a bandwagon (except we don’t tend to call it that if it actually lands us a wolf).

++THINLÓMIEN

Parting shot: Friendly reminder, a bandwagon does not start with the first vote.
Umm, why? And a very ominous parting shot to accompany it. I don't like this one bit. "Fellow wolves, rally here, wink wink nudge nudge?"
Hm. I read Lhuna’s “Parting shot” as a throwaway comment in response to others already talking about Macwagons when so far Mac only has the one vote by Lommy. Lommy’s reading of it seems a little nervous to me; I seriously doubt a Lhunawolf would signal her fellow wolves to rally to her bandwagon that openly.

Well, if Mac is a wolf, he clearly started the Day with the mindset that he's a lost cause because Rikae's death points to him anyway so perhaps he could then at least do his packmates a service by trying to attract as much attention as possible? I still don't understand why macwolf would be this paranoid/suicidal, but I see even less reason for ordomac to act this way.This is more or less my thinking too at this point. Unless something very dramatic comes up in the next half hour or so, I’m probably voting for Mac.


EDIT: x-ed with Mac, Legate, and ze mod

[Loslote]

And Mac's reactions to Huin are feeling more innocent now, and Huin's last couple of posts are feeling a little more like a salesman..... I'm less enthusiastic about a Mac vote after seeing how he's defending himself, which doesn't feel desperate, more annoyed. I think I'm leaning towards Zil instead, I'm too torn on Mac.

[Boromir88]

Waiting for this QT vote to be known...in the meant time:

A thought I thought last night before bed - a possible reason for a Rikae kill is that they were onto something with their train of thought re: the anti-Brinn wagon. Weigh in, please.~Shasta

That's why I was focusing in on the 2 wagons.

Huey, Lottie, and Inzil all remarked caution against a Brinn-wagon. Which I also found suspicious. It's almost like a wolf/wolves trying to appear reasonable in "hey let's not bandwagon."

Lottie and Inzil had previously established reasons for suspecting G55 and voting her. Which is fair enough, but still pretty convenient for a wolf to be in there advocating against a Brinn-wagon, even if Brinn is not a wolf.

Edit: crossed with Nog posting the QT vote. Great. Not what I was expecting or wanted to see.

[Boromir88]

Apparently my edit turned into a repost *sigh* :confused:

[Boromir88]

Umm, why? And a very ominous parting shot to accompany it. I don't like this one bit. "Fellow wolves, rally here, wink wink nudge nudge?"


edit: xed with THE Ka
(Regarding Lhuna's vote for Lommy)

Agreed. If we're speaking of zombies. That looked like a rotten parting shot, Lhuna. *ping*

[Inziladun]

Huey, Lottie, and Inzil all remarked caution against a Brinn-wagon. Which I also found suspicious. It's almost like a wolf/wolves trying to appear reasonable in "hey let's not bandwagon."

It just struck me as coming out of nowhere. It looked like someone(s)wanted to save G55.
I would really like to know Brinn's alignment, but I don't know I'd vote for her.
Since the QTs (which effectively means G55) did vote for her, that throws a small wrinkle into it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

First things first: I knew I was missing sally from my list, yet posted it nonetheless! Well, should go to the middle zone.

Second: the QT vote. Absolutely what I would expect from a Cobbler vote, but even, possibly, could be something they agreed on. I personally feel nothing wrong with pursuing Brinnwagon further, regardless whether it's been "blessed" by the Cobbler or not. It will only leave us to wonder. And let's keep in our heads the mantra: the Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles, the Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles, the Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles. This is literally a vote to mess with our heads (even if it may have something else in, too - but it has this, for sure).

Inzil and Lottie have the highest post count so far. How did they end up under my radar?
In the name of all the grandchildren of Finwë, Zil, really? My sentiment exactly.

However, that being said...
Zil has one of the highest post counts? o.O How is that possibly true?

I think that raises him from 'moderate' to 'probable' wolf in my estimation. Sadly for Mac, with both of them having a vote, it doesn't make me think he himself is less suspicious - accusing your packmate right before one of you gets lynched sounds like a great way to alleviate suspicion of them.

hS

This again made my radar *ping* at HS. This again sounds like casting blame "from the flank", or "as he passes by". By now, however, HS has been doing it so consistently that I am really beginning to wonder.

Still. Right now, considering voting either HS, Lottie or Brinn. The former two seem to affect me the way that I keep telling myself "you are exaggerating", but then I see their next post and it's the same thing all over again. If I don't vote now and wait, I may end up again with the choice of some bandwagons about someone completely different and I would prefer not to do that. If it happened however and it was about some of those others that got votes so far, I would not be opposed to voting Lommy, possibly, but the whole thing seems horribly sinister and I have zero, zero, zero idea how to react to Mac. Zero.

[Thinlómien]

I'm currently having a somewhat crazy idea of a Mac-Lhuna-Greenie pack, with maybe Eönwë and someone who's flying under my radar, such as Kath or THE Ka, or Sally. That would be pretty epic.

Mac-Greenie has a slight wolf-on-wolf vibe to me (in fact did already yesterDay when Greenie voted Mac out of the blue enough to make it look like a daring wolf-on-wolf move she could totally pull), then toDay Greenie's been waffling on whether Brinn or Mac looks more sketchy while conveniently lumping them together (while I still maintain that if you actually read Rikae's posts, it doesn't really look like she seerdreamt a guilty Brinn!) while Mac has been conveniently lumping me and Greenie together as his top suspects, then choosing to vote me. (After Lhuna's eerie post, I daresay, which Greenie just mildly defended.) See, it's all coming together! :eek:

(Yes this is a tongue-in-cheek accusation, but I still think I'm onto something, at least partially. Why Eönwë? He just rubs me the wrong way toDay, plus I get a buddy-buddy vibe between him and Greenie. Also just saying he lists Lhuna and Greenie as innocent and Mac in a vague "dangerous" category alongside a bunch of people without much explanation.)


edit: xed with Zil and Legate

[Thinlómien]

Still. Right now, considering voting either HS, Lottie or Brinn. The former two seem to affect me the way that I keep telling myself "you are exaggerating", but then I see their next post and it's the same thing all over again. If I don't vote now and wait, I may end up again with the choice of some bandwagons about someone completely different and I would prefer not to do that. If it happened however and it was about some of those others that got votes so far, I would not be opposed to voting Lommy, possibly, but the whole thing seems horribly sinister and I have zero, zero, zero idea how to react to Mac. Zero.What seems sinister?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What seems sinister?

Literally "the whole thing", as in, what is happening between you and Mac and I don't know what, it is absolutely nontransparent to me and I would maybe do better to stay clear of it.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Apologies, I've gotten distracted. DL is in half an hour. Do we have a running tally?

[Pitchwife]

Since the QTs (which effectively means G55) did vote for her, that throws a small wrinkle into it.
That only tells us that G55 doesn't think Brinn is a wolf but wants to lynch her to save somebody she thinks IS a wolf - which could well be Mac, as she already seems to have thought him a possible wolf yesterDay.



However, I find myself concurring with Lottie above that the tone of Mac's last couple of posts is giving me pause. I don't know what a cornered Macwolf would sound like, but this doesn't feel like it.

[Thinlómien]

Literally "the whole thing", as in, what is happening between you and Mac and I don't know what, it is absolutely nontransparent to me and I would maybe do better to stay clear of it.That's a remarkably safe position to take, especially since at the moment I'm the one with the most votes (how did this happen btw?) and Mac is the one who's probably overall garnered the most suspicion toDay.

edit: xed with Shasta and Pitch

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Okay could we please stop with the massive posts listing what people did in great detail, surely a point can be made more efficiently. If i ever mod a game, it will be with a tweet-version with a character and post cap for the participants.

Let's leave Kitanna for now, we all saw it, there was a reason we said nothing. Either she speaks truth (which I am inclined to believe) and the wolves will come for her eventually, or the real ranger comes forth and she will face quarantine.

But it is also kind of entrancing, isn't it? :p


Please stop it.





Dangerous (Could vote, but not my first choice)
Kitanna - Not sure what to think of her now, but I haven't taken her off the hook completely.



But why? I understand that she is not your top suspect, but I still don't get it.


The Quarantine Thread has voted. They vote...

++ Brinniel


Votes (2 hours before the DL)

Lommy -> Macalaure
Kath -> Inzil
Lhuna -> Lommy
Macalaure -> Lommy 2
QT -> Brinniel

This basically means that cobbler voted Brinniel, right?

[Thinlómien]

Apologies, I've gotten distracted. DL is in half an hour. Do we have a running tally?It's in 1.5h!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

That only tells us that G55 doesn't think Brinn is a wolf but wants to lynch her to save somebody she thinks IS a wolf - which could well be Mac, as she already seems to have thought him a possible wolf yesterDay.



However, I find myself concurring with Lottie above that the tone of Mac's last couple of posts is giving me pause. I don't know what a cornered Macwolf would sound like, but this doesn't feel like it.

I don't actually think we should read into the QT vote at all. It could just as easily be a double-bluff by G55 - "If I vote Brinn, they'll think I want to kill her, so they won't vote her," etc. etc.

[A Little Green]

I’ve essentially had the same problem for two days now so expect some talking in circles while I try to untangle it. (Sorry Lommy, this is exactly the waffling you mentioned! Or, should we say, "considering both sides of the issue". :p)

My top suspects are still Mac and Brinn, but both of them being wolves looks unlikely to me – chiefly because they’ve both acted paranoid in a strikingly similar way about the Rikae kill being about framing them specifically. I don’t really see two wolves from the same pack drawing attention to themselves in this way. Unless they were counting on that if one of them got lynched, this would give the other a free pass?

Mac’s self-defence does look more annoyed than desperate, as someone pointed out. But I just can’t see why an innocent Mac would draw attention to himself the way he was doing especially earlier toDay. And maybe our minds do work in very different ways, but I don’t see how (and why) an innocent Mac would come up with complex theory about how Cobbler55 thought Rikae was a Seer who dreamed Mac was a wolf and maybe the wolves followed her lead and thought so too, except he isn’t really a wolf, but maybe the wolves want to frame him.

That said, I don’t trust Brinn at all either. As in the post Lhuna quoted earlier where she said she suspected Pitch but laid off when he started being suspected by more people as she thought there might be wolves in the bandwagon and she didn’t want a part in it; I get a vibe of someone more concerned about not being implicated in lynching an innocent than actually lynching someone she genuinely suspects.


EDIT: x-ed since SHasta's reappearance

[Boromir88]

Apologies, I've gotten distracted. DL is in half an hour. Do we have a running tally?

It's in one and half hours. Don't try to confuse me with my DL mix up yesterday.

Lommy -> Macalaure
Kath -> Inzil
Lhuna -> Lommy
Macalaure -> Lommy 2
QT -> Brinniel

[Nogrod]

DL is in half an hour.
DL is in 1½ hours.

[Pitchwife]

Apologies, I've gotten distracted. DL is in half an hour. Do we have a running tally?
Hour and a half, I think.

[Macalaure]

Ok then, looking into the rest of my unknown list.


Loslote. Half her posts seem genuinely innocent and the other half doesn’t. I don’t feel like going into detail, there’s just too much of it. Gut feeling is innocent who I just happen to I disagree with.

Not seeing anything suspicious about Shasta.

Moving on to lower post counts…

Still can’t get a read on Rune, but nothing jumps out either.

Something doesn’t feel right about Sally, but I can’t put my finger on it. I always feel that way about Sally though, so yeah…

I’m mostly ok with Lhuna. Her role in the Kitanna/ranger/wolf thing raised an eyebrow, and I’m no fan of her parting shot, but that’s all I see.

Eonwe. Getting some suspicion from people, but outside of throwing away his vote, I don’t see it.


So, I was hoping one or two on my unknown list would stick out suspiciously upon closer observation, but as it turns out, I guess there was a reason why they were on the unknown list in the first place.:rolleyes:

[Macalaure]

Feeling a bit bad about my Lommy vote now. Her last few post look more innocent to me. I'm feeling a lot worse about Huin and wish I could change it to him or Greenie, vote count be damned.

[A Little Green]

I don't actually think we should read into the QT vote at all. It could just as easily be a double-bluff by G55 - "If I vote Brinn, they'll think I want to kill her, so they won't vote her," etc. etc. Agreed. As Legate already reminded us, the cobbler doesn't know anything we don't and therefore their vote also doesn't tell us anything.


EDIT: x-ed with Mac

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's a remarkably safe position to take, especially since at the moment I'm the one with the most votes (how did this happen btw?) and Mac is the one who's probably overall garnered the most suspicion toDay.

edit: xed with Shasta and Pitch

Yes, but not from me. Anyways, Mac looks far from uncontroversial to me, but I don't like how suddenly half the villag - not the least people I suspect like Lottie etc - turned into suddenly serving Mac as the main meal of the day. It feels like it isn't healthy.


This basically means that cobbler voted Brinniel, right?

Yes, likely. Or they agreed, which is also possible. See what I said some two posts back or something.

I'm at the moment strongly considering voting Brinn. Otherwise I thought to start a Huinesoron vote or somesuch, but I am not sure if anyone at all would go for it.

EDIT: xed since the Rune I quoted

[Boromir88]

My top suspects are still Mac and Brinn, but both of them being wolves looks unlikely to me – chiefly because they’ve both acted paranoid in a strikingly similar way about the Rikae kill being about framing them specifically. I don’t really see two wolves from the same pack drawing attention to themselves in this way. Unless they were counting on that if one of them got lynched, this would give the other a free pass?


I would assign the "paranoia about Rikae kill" more to Mac today than Brinn.

As far as I recall, Brinn had one post about it today which looked fishy on the "do you think I'd be that dumb?" comment. Her other posts have been comments about everyone else. Could be an attempt to look helpful, but struck me as an innocent response of "Ok Boro, you can waste your time if you want, I'm going to talk about other things."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

That only tells us that G55 doesn't think Brinn is a wolf but wants to lynch her to save somebody she thinks IS a wolf - which could well be Mac, as she already seems to have thought him a possible wolf yesterDay.

Or she recon that we would be very reluctant to support the quarantine vote when we know she has the deciding vote.

On a different note, The Ka attributes a quotation to me in post #426, which I definitely did not say. For some reason I cannot quote it when I try.

[A Little Green]

I'm at the moment strongly considering voting Brinn. Otherwise I thought to start a Huinesoron vote or somesuch, but I am not sure if anyone at all would go for it.I could go for either Mac or Brinn at this point. Both look suspicious to me, and knowing their roles would give us a lot more insight into several others (including each other).

[Pitchwife]

I don't actually think we should read into the QT vote at all. It could just as easily be a double-bluff by G55 - "If I vote Brinn, they'll think I want to kill her, so they won't vote her," etc. etc.
True.


The Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles,
The Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles,
The Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles,
High-dee-high-dee ho!


That said, I don’t trust Brinn at all either. As in the post Lhuna quoted earlier where she said she suspected Pitch but laid off when he started being suspected by more people as she thought there might be wolves in the bandwagon and she didn’t want a part in it; I get a vibe of someone more concerned about not being implicated in lynching an innocent than actually lynching someone she genuinely suspects.
That's one of the main points against Brinn which has up to now been brought up ad nauseam by the world & his wife, starting from Rikae onward and (IIRC, need to check but I think) including Mac at some point? Why reiterate it?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's in 1.5h!

Oh lovely. Thanks!

[Thinlómien]

In the spirit of my latest (longer) post, I would really urge people to look at patterns and teamups and accusations and wrack their brains what might the entire wolf pack, or the majority of it be. When you start doing this, you quickly notice that there's a limited amount of combos that both make sense as a team and consist of suspicious feeling players.

Also I know it's only Day2 and now is not the time to start analysing submarines but everybody should at least skim through the player list and pause to consider each fellow player.

As for the lynch toDay, well I already cast my vote, which I maintain "made things more interesting" :p , even if it happens that I get lynched toDay. I see where the second guessing on Mac is coming from but to me, his behaviour continues to be mostly baffling - he seemed so paranoid resigned to his death the whole Day, now that it started to look like he would be lynch, he suddenly becomes chill and starts focusing on other things than just being framed? :confused:

I still think we should give Brinn a pass for toDay, mostly not based on her own actions but how eager people have been to pin accusations and valiant defences on her. To the point that I thought everyone else is thinking that Brinn was yesterDay's kerfuffle and being surprised that people (at least Legate and Greenie) seem to be genuinely considering voting her. But what can I say, lynching her is probably a better idea than lynching me, anyway.

Ditto about Inzil. I still think he has seemed relatively innocent, so the constant suspicion on him makes me think I'm missing something. But is it him being shady, or a low key wolf conspiracy to keep him as a backup lynch option? No offense, but he is the type of player who often gets lynched pretty arbitrarily. :D

But of course, the most votes anyone has is 2 so there's plenty time to add more candidates on the table. I'm pretty curious about this actually, because yesterDay for instance the votes didn't spread very much despite the villge being huge. Wolves might have an interest in keeping the number of options small, regardless of whether one of them already has a vote or not.


edit: xed with #478 and onwards

[Boromir88]

I'm at the moment strongly considering voting Brinn. Otherwise I thought to start a Huinesoron vote or somesuch, but I am not sure if anyone at all would go for it.


I'm about done on a more thorough look of Lhuna. I was overall feeling good. I mean the Day 1 wasn't giving me anything, but really liked her point on Kit and response to Lottie. Agree with Lommy on how Lhuna's vote looks, but just about done with Lhuna's post.

Maybe too late and near DL to look through Huey for consideration today, but he's worth a thorough look.

[Kitanna]

Maybe too late and near DL to look through Huey for consideration today, but he's worth a thorough look.
Someone else said this recently too (Legate maybe?) and I've been slowly reading through his posts and I am starting to agree there's something going on there.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

True.


The Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles,
The Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles,
The Cobbler doesn't know anyone's roles,
High-dee-high-dee ho!
That's the spirit!

And yeah, I should perhaps be happy for knowing people sharing the idea, but Greenie's happy jump on the idea to vote Brinn seems worrisome to me.

But of course, the most votes anyone has is 2 so there's plenty time to add more candidates on the table. I'm pretty curious about this actually, because yesterDay for instance the votes didn't spread very much despite the villge being huge. Wolves might have an interest in keeping the number of options small, regardless of whether one of them already has a vote or not.

Some good points there. But of course, while there may be more than two or three options, the actual viable options will probably quickly get limited to a smaller number too. But yeah...

[Inziladun]

I could go for either Mac or Brinn at this point. Both look suspicious to me, and knowing their roles would give us a lot more insight into several others (including each other).

I could vote for either, as part of the Rikae connection, or Lottie. It doesn't seem there would be much support for the last, though.

Ditto about Inzil. I still think he has seemed relatively innocent, so the constant suspicion on him makes me think I'm missing something. But is it him being shady, or a low key wolf conspiracy to keep him as a backup lynch option? No offense, but he is the type of player who often gets lynched pretty arbitrarily. :D

That last is undoubtedly true. :rolleyes:

x/d with Kit and Legate

[Loslote]

I'm at the moment strongly considering voting Brinn. Otherwise I thought to start a Huinesoron vote or somesuch, but I am not sure if anyone at all would go for it.

I wouldn't be opposed to voting for Huinesoron. I mentioned earlier that Mac[b] was looking more innocent to me, and I started getting a kind of sketchy vibe from [b]Huin. Even when I put him in my "feeling okay" category in my list, I mentioned that I wanted to keep an eye on his habit of slightly misrepresenting things in his summaries, as well. I'm going to take a closer look at him, but I would consider him a candidate for voting toDay.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm about done on a more thorough look of Lhuna. I was overall feeling good. I mean the Day 1 wasn't giving me anything, but really liked her point on Kit and response to Lottie. Agree with Lommy on how Lhuna's vote looks, but just about done with Lhuna's post.

Maybe too late and near DL to look through Huey for consideration today, but he's worth a thorough look.
Someone else said this recently too (Legate maybe?) and I've been slowly reading through his posts and I am starting to agree there's something going on there.

Yeah, that was me. Mac then spoke about it later (another of the posts of his that piqued my interest - for a different reason, mostly because he suddenly was in accord with many of my own thoughts), but he has already cast his vote.

But I may go for it - or Lottie could be another option.

[A Little Green]

Okay. Since I actually want to get to bed on time for once -

++ Macalaure

As discussed earlier, I can't really think why an innocent Mac would be acting the way he has. The odd cobbler-Rikae-theory was the second time it's seemed like his thought processes are not ones that would occur to an innocent (the first being the slightly too convenient one from yesterDay where he went from it being nearly deadline and not knowing who to vote for to a suspicion of Brinn in the course of a single post).


EDIT: x-ed since Boro's post about Lhuna

[Thinlómien]

Feeling a bit bad about my Lommy vote now. Her last few post look more innocent to me. I'm feeling a lot worse about Huin and wish I could change it to him or Greenie, vote count be damned. If you're a wolf, you're eeeevil, you know that?

Anyways, Mac looks far from uncontroversial to me, but I don't like how suddenly half the villag - not the least people I suspect like Lottie etc - turned into suddenly serving Mac as the main meal of the day. It feels like it isn't healthy.Not that I wouldn't still be for cannibalising Mac for a village dinner à la Asterix, but I actually agree with this sentiment. Like I said before, people have been way too much assuming about Mac getting lynched toDay (others than Mac himself, too :D).

That being said - I'm making a sidenote right now that if we lynch Mac and if he is a wolf, then I'd really look at Legate.

People talking about voting Huinesoron? Well that would be a Plot Twist but not necessarily a bad one. If he's a wolf, I wager Brinn is one too. He pretty much admitted to trying to save her on Day1, which just sounded off to me. But I have really hard time reading Huin because as I've said, I just don't follow his thought processes because it seems we disagree on every turn.


edit: xed with Lottie, Leggie and Littlie

[Inziladun]

People talking about voting Huinesoron? Well that would be a Plot Twist but not necessarily a bad one. If he's a wolf, I wager Brinn is one too. He pretty much admitted to trying to save her on Day1, which just sounded off to me. But I have really hard time reading Huin because as I've said, I just don't follow his thought processes because it seems we disagree on every turn.

Huey seems capable of long, analytical posts and somehow steers clear of controversy in the meantime. I am not at all at ease with him, but I don't think I'd vote him just yet.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta -> Pitchwife 2 (I'm jerking the reins a bit here) ~ Shasta

I'd be interested to know a bit more about this vote, Shasta. This vote created a three way tie at the time between Pitch, G55 and Brinn. It's certainly consistent with his earlier suspicions, I just wonder why Pitch over Brinn at this point, especially with the comment at the point of vote as well.

Of those with votes, I won't vote for Rikae, could vote for Brinn or Pitch, and probably won't be voting for G55 unless it's to save someone I think is innocent.

I was fine with either a Pitchwife or Brinniel lynch at the time, Pitch slightly more, so I voted early to tie them and keep them in the village crosshairs ("jerking the reins") - I didn't vote G55 because I thought she was the Cobbler and not a wolf.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I could vote for either, as part of the Rikae connection, or Lottie. It doesn't seem there would be much support for the last, though.
I wouldn't be opposed to voting for Huinesoron. I mentioned earlier that Mac[b] was looking more innocent to me, and I started getting a kind of sketchy vibe from [b]Huin. Even when I put him in my "feeling okay" category in my list, I mentioned that I wanted to keep an eye on his habit of slightly misrepresenting things in his summaries, as well. I'm going to take a closer look at him, but I would consider him a candidate for voting toDay.
The feeling when people you are wary of start to be the (basically only) ones supporting your lynch ideas.

But I would also like it to be filed that Greenie said she could vote either Brinn or Mac (in response to me talking about voting Brinn), other people mentioned both afterwards, and of the options, then decided to go for Mac. Just a thing to check back to later if anything relevant to this "constellation" comes up.

Since now there seems to be more support for it too, I may vote Hui. But otherwise I'm also very much favouring Brinnlynch to others.

EDIT: x-ed after Lommy

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Neutral:
Lommy
Leaning towards innocent. I thought she made a lot of sense in post 298. Might have made one or two safe-non commital comments on day 1, but it is hard not to.

Pitch
Yesterday I thought him innocent, but the Kitanna deal gets him relegated to this group.

Inzil
Mostly good vibes yesterday, less so today. Besides the ranger thing, I have nothing concrete.

The Ka
Leaning towards good. Seems insightful and helpful. Again nothing concrete.

Good
Legate
I haven't read all he says in detail, but what I have read is great. I agree with far more of his reasoning than I would normally care to admit. I am especially a fan of post 393 and 463.

Lhuna
I like her playing style okay. Anyways nothing has seemed out of character and seems helpful.

shasta
I like his playing style okay. Anyways nothing has seemed out of character and seems helpful.

Possibly Sinister
Loslote
I really get a bad vibe from Loslote, but to be honest 50% of her posts seem outright reasonable. The reason she still makes this list is that I did not care for her post 114 where she tried to keep the Legate-Pitch day 1 spat going, without commiting. In post 294 she seems to commit to an agenda of getting a Brinn voter lynched, which i did not care for.

Brinniel
Same as yesterday. Her actions today doesn't do much in either direction. I like that she stick to her guns, but I am not convinced by her arguments.

Eönwe
Same as yesterday + the fact that he could vote Kitanna

No read
Hui
Kath
Boromir
Lalaith
Sally
Mac
Greenie

Also guys guess what happened?
I was reading a Lommy post and Joni Mitchell’s “Both Sides Now” came on.:cool:

[Thinlómien]

An hour to go. Is everyone gonna vote at the last minute again?

[A Little Green]

I still think we should give Brinn a pass for toDay, mostly not based on her own actions but how eager people have been to pin accusations and valiant defences on her. To the point that I thought everyone else is thinking that Brinn was yesterDay's kerfuffle and being surprised that people (at least Legate and Greenie) seem to be genuinely considering voting her. But what can I say, lynching her is probably a better idea than lynching me, anyway.This doesn't make sense to me. As I recall, Lommy started toDay sounding almost outraged that people seemed to be giving Brinn a pass. Did I miss something in the middle where this changed? I don't really see why we should give someone a pass if she hasn't done anything to appear less suspicious, or less likely to be guilty. Likewise, I don't see how other people being eager to accuse and/or defend her means we should give her a pass - if anything, it would mean more to analyse in case she was lynched. Lommy, help?


EDIT: x-ed with Rune and Lommy