6 Degrees of Separation

[Urwen]

Well, let me take a bite, as I know the possible link

Fingolfin - Morgoth - Sauron - Ar-Pharazon - Tar-Miriel

Dat gud enuf, siree?

[Nerwen]

Ahem.
Try not to use Gandalf, Saurman,or Sauron if it can be helped. These people have a link to just about everybody.

[Urwen]

But then it becomes more than six degrees.

[Nerwen]

What about Fingolfin - Fingon - Gil-galad - Elendil - Amandil - Tar-Miriel?

[Urwen]

I thought about it, but it is never implied that Gil-Galad and Elendil met.

[Nerwen]

I thought about it, but it is never implied that Gil-Galad and Elendil met.
Pretty strongly implied, I should say.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Well, let me take a bite, as I know the possible link

Fingolfin - Morgoth - Sauron - Ar-Pharazon - Tar-Miriel

Dat gud enuf, siree?

Good enuf for me.

Ahem.
'Try' being the key word here.

[Urwen]

Well then, how about I steal one of your links?

Fingolfin - Elwing

[Andsigil]

Well then, how about I steal one of your links?

Fingolfin - Elwing

This one is surprisingly difficult for two elves in the First Age...

How about: Fingolfin -> Turgon -> Tuor -> Earendil -> Elwing ?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Seems legit to me Andsigil, if Urwen does not reply, I think you can just take the thread.

[Urwen]

Correct.

[Huinesoron]

Since Urwen bumped this up a couple of weeks ago, how about I give a puzzle?

Narvi -> Maeglin (just for you, Urwen!).

I can do this in 6 (assuming that means '6 names total', including both ends) several ways, and 5 by at least two slightly cheeky routes... oh, and 3 by a very cheeky route. No Sauron, Gandalf, or Saruman required.

(If you include a non-obvious link, it'd be nice to get an explanation for it - that's how we learn random trivia, after all!)

hS

[Urwen]

Narvi>Celebrimbor>Curufin>Celegorm>Aredhel>Maeglin

[Huinesoron]

Narvi>Celebrimbor>Curufin>Celegorm>Aredhel>Maeglin

Hah, didn't even think of the fact that Cel'n'Cur met Aredhel & Eol. Nice.

Care to try for a shorter route, or do you just want to post your own?

hS

[Urwen]

I'll try for the shorter route


Narvi>Celebrimbor>Turgon>Aredhel>Maeglin


OR


Narvi>Celebrimbor>Turgon>Idril>Maeglin

[Huinesoron]

What's your link from Celebrimbor to Turgon, other than them being... some sort of cousins?

hS

[Urwen]

According to one version of legendarium, Celebrimbor lived in Gondolin for a time, where he made the early prototype of the stone known as Elessar for Turgon.

[Huinesoron]

According to one version of legendarium, Celebrimbor lived in Gondolin for a time, where he made the early prototype of the stone known as Elessar for Turgon.

Ah, right. That would be my super cheeky version, which in fact doesn't need to go through Aredhel, Idril, or even Turgon: the laws of Gondolin say that no-one leaves, which means Celebrimbor would have met Maeglin directly.

The route I first thought of was Narvi-Celebrimbor-Finrod-Ulmo-Tuor-Maeglin, which is definitely beaten by either of yours (you can actually skip Celegorm on your first one - Curufin talks directly to Eol). So I think I'll pass it over to you at this point.

(I also had one which took advantage of the theory that all the Durins are the same person to go Narvi->Durin III/IV->The Balrog->Morgoth->Maeglin... ^_^)

Over to you, Urwen!

hS

[Urwen]

I am feeling generous now, so


Lalaith -> Maeglin


*No Barrow-Downs users usage allowed*

[Huinesoron]

Well, Lalaith > Turin > Tuor > Maeglin springs to mind, by way of the cousins passing on the road.

Hurin was around for Lalaith's childhood, right? And he visited Gondolin and would have met Maeglin. So can I just have Lalaith > Hurin > Maeglin?

hS

[Urwen]

Those answers are both acceptable, but I kinda like the first one better.


You're up.

[Huinesoron]

Thanks! Let's move on from your favourite character to one of my bizarre obsessions: the Witch-Queen of Numenor (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=709939&postcount=65) theory (using the term 'theory' loosely).

Tar-Telperien -> The Witch-King of Angmar

Without going through Sauron, I can do it in six solid steps, or five with an assumption in the middle. Perhaps you can do better!

And as a bonus round of sorts, the one I can't get below 8: Tal-Elmar (of Tal-Elmar) to Borlas (of The New Shadow). Would love to see any solutions that use less names, even if they don't hit 6 and qualify for this game.

hS

[Urwen]

That's a hard one without going through Sauron....

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Okay, Ill give it a crack.

1. Tar-Telperien was the mother of
2. Tar-Minastir, who came to the aid of
3. Gil-Galad, whose other sub-commander in that war was
4. Elrond, in whose house dwelt
5. Glorfindel, who at Fornost routed and prophesied the destruction of
6. The Witch-King

(If one assumes Glorfindel was already present and was one of G-G's generals, we can skip Elrond)

Alternative:

3. Gil-Galad, who received two Rings from
4. Celebrimbor, who also made the Ring of the
5. Witch-King

[Huinesoron]

That's the one I got, sure enough (though I believe Minastir was her nephew, not her son), including the 'can we assume Glorfindel met Gil-Galad' potential shortcut.

Over to you, William!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

All right:

SAURON -> LEGOLAS, without using ANY members of the Fellowship or Council of Elrond.

[Urwen]

Sauron>Gil-Galad>Oropher>Thranduil>Legolas


Do I get a cookie?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Gil-galad > Oropher is a bit more distant than I had in mind. Just a graham cracker.

HINT: There are no parent-child relationships

[Huinesoron]

Well, Gil-galad > Oropher is a bit more distant than I had in mind. Just a graham cracker.

HINT: There are no parent-child relationships

It's not that distant - weren't they both commanders in the Last Alliance?

Of course, there's always this:

Sauron > Mouth of Sauron > Legolas.

Legolas is present at the parley, though he doesn't speak. (Similarly, Sauron > One of the Nazgul > Legolas, who shot at it.)

But I doubt that's what you're thinking of. :)

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

OK, that works, but it wasn't the 6-stepper I had in mind

[Huinesoron]

Sauron > Galadriel > Legolas?

At Dol Guldur and Lorien, respectively.

I'm not too clear on what the aim of the game in this thread is. Are we trying to find the exact solution the question-setter thought of? Are we hunting for as many answers as possible? Or are we after the shortest answer? It's all a bit vague, it's driving me batty. :D

(I've been mostly assuming some form of 'match or beat the length specified by the setter', for the record, with the caveat that cheeky/sneaky answers may meet a reply of 'clever, but can you also do it properly?')

For a more serious answer...

1. Sauron captured and tortured
2. Thrain, who was the father of
3. Thorin, who was imprisoned by
4. Thranduil, who was the father of
5. Legolas.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Oh wait, you said no parent-child sets. Hrm. Let's try:

1. Sauron tortured
2. Gollum, who clearly had an encounter with
3. Grishnakh, who argued with
4. Ugluk, who duelled with
5. Eomer, who shortly thereafter met
6. Legolas.

For a moment Pippin was silent. Then suddenly in the darkness he made a noise in his throat: gollum, gollum. 'Nothing, my precious,' he added.

The hobbits felt Grishnákh's fingers twitch. 'O ho!' hissed the goblin softly. 'That's what he means, is it? O ho! Very ve-ry dangerous, my little ones.'

Unless 'he says 'precious' a lot and has a bad cough' is valuable information for the spies of Mordor, I think it's clear Grishnakh and Gollum have met.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm pretty sure G did- but then, so did Ugluk! Although it appears nowhere in published writings, in his time-schemes Tolkien wrote that Gollum, while lurking outside Lorien waiting for the Company to emerge, was captured and questioned by Ugluk's team from Isengard (Saruman had been alerted by messengers from Moria that the Coy had passed through).

Anyway, I'll call that a win, although what I had in mind was a bit more roundabout:

1. Sauron was a Maia of
2. Aule, who was married to
3. Yavanna, who obliged Saruman to bring along
4. Radagast, who sent out
5. Gwaihir, who was spotted by
6. Legolas

[Huinesoron]

That is certainly roundabout. :)

So let's try this: the forced marriage pair.

Tar-Miriel > Aredhel

... without going through any Dark Lords.

I can do it in six, but I'm sure it can be done quicker.

hS

[Urwen]

I am going to use some assumptions here, if you don't mind.


Tar-Miriel - Elendil - Gil-Galad - Fingon - Aredhel

[Huinesoron]

I am going to use some assumptions here, if you don't mind.

Tar-Miriel - Elendil - Gil-Galad - Fingon - Aredhel

Looks good to me! I'd forgotten the GG-Fingon connection, so my version went Gil-Galad > Earendil > Idril > Aredhel, so well done.

Over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

Let me take this opportunity to use another pair of my favorite characters....


Turin - > Tar-Miriel

[Huinesoron]

Let me take this opportunity to use another pair of my favorite characters....

Turin - > Tar-Miriel

There's always the 'opposite assumption' version passing through Gil-Galad son of Orodreth, but I'd like to go for something a bit more subtle, so:

1. Turin was fostered by
2. Thingol, who travelled to Aman with
3. Ingwe, who sits at the feet of
4. Manwe, who sent forth the
5. Eagles of Manwe, which were seen by
6. Tar-Miriel as they flew over Numenor.

How's that?

hS

[Urwen]

Good enough for me

[Huinesoron]

Thanks. Can I ask what your solution was?

And, in honour of your guess from the Bad Guys thread:

Huan > Bereg

(Note that's Bereg of House Beor.)

I can definitely do this in 6, but I'll be interested to see the routes others take.

hS

[Urwen]

I can do it like this

Huan - Celegorm - Meadhros - Amlach - Bereg

Or if you want it longer, I can do that too.

[Urwen]

Thanks. Can I ask what your solution was?



I had none. I had some vague idea that it could go through Tuor somehow, but yours is better.

[Huinesoron]

I can do it like this

Huan - Celegorm - Meadhros - Amlach - Bereg

Or if you want it longer, I can do that too.

Nope, that's good. I went Huan > Carcharoth > Morgoth > Morgoth's emmisary > Amlach > Bereg, but yours is much tidier (and shorter is always better!).

Back to you. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Do you want an easy one or the hard one?

[Huinesoron]

Do you want an easy one or the hard one?

Hard. Always hard. ^_^

hS

[Urwen]

Hard one it is!

Let's try these two who bore the same epithet....

Glaurung - > Phary

[Urwen]

Is it too hard?

If it is, tell me and I'll make something easier....

[Huinesoron]

No, no, we can do this. How about:

1. Glaurung the Golden, while young, was shot at by
2. Fingon, who was best chums with
3. Maedhros, who with his brother found the young
4. Elrond, who went volcano-spelunking with
5. Isildur, who had the guards set on him by
6. Ar-Pharazon the Golden, prospective immortal.

That last step is the only one I'm dubious about; I'm not sure Golden Boy was directly involved. (I think it's from The Lost Road; Isildur's trying to rescue a fruit of the White Tree.)

hS

[Urwen]

Back to you.

[Huinesoron]

You know what the problem with this thread is? Too many nobles. We need a bit more representation from the commons.

Rosie Cotton > Nellas of Doriath

I can do this in six. What I haven't yet managed is the bonus challenge: to do it without passing through anyone who held the title of 'king'.

hS

[Urwen]

All right.

Rosie Cotton - Sam - Gandalf - Nienna - Tulkas - Nessa - Melian - Beleg - Nellas

I am assuming that Nienna and Tulkas have met

[Huinesoron]

All right.

Rosie Cotton - Sam - Gandalf - Nienna - Tulkas - Nessa - Melian - Beleg - Nellas

I am assuming that Nienna and Tulkas have met

That's a good start! Now you just have to trim it down to six names somehow. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Hold on. You said no Kings. You never said no Dark Lords.


Rosie > Sam > Gandalf > Nienna > Melkor > Turin > Nellas


And....this is the best I can do....

[Urwen]

Or

Rosie - Sam - Galadriel - Melian - Beleg - Nellas

Or

Rosie - Sam - Galadriel - Melian - Turin - Nellas

[Huinesoron]

Or

Rosie - Sam - Galadriel - Melian - Beleg - Nellas

Or

Rosie - Sam - Galadriel - Melian - Turin - Nellas

And there we go. :) I knew someone would do it!

I'd managed to forget about the Galadriel-Melian connection, so my best was Rosie-Sam-Galadriel-Orodreth-Turin-Nellas, which obviously runs through a king. So over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

They were killed to kick-start the two great tales.....

Feanor - > Eilinel

[Nerwen]

Fëanor - Finrod - Barahir - Gorlim - Eilinel

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think Finarfin has to go between Feanor and Finrod

[Urwen]

Fëanor - Finrod - Barahir - Gorlim - Eilinel


Correct.

[Nerwen]

I think Finarfin has to go between Feanor and Finrod
Well, I'm assuming Fëanor met his nephew at least once- but even with Finarfin, it still gets there in six steps.

Okay... let's see:

Bill the Pony -> Mîm.

[Urwen]

Easy enough.


Bill - Sam - Galadriel - Melian - Turin - Mim

[Nerwen]

Easy enough.


Bill - Sam - Galadriel - Melian - Turin - Mim

Well, that works (obviously).

But can you make a Maia-free version? (Call it another bonus challenge).

[Urwen]

Sure thing


Bill - Sam - Galadriel - Orodreth - Turin - Mim

[Nerwen]

What about- without Galadriel either?:eek:

[Urwen]

Now that's pushing it.



But I tell you what. If you post a new riddle soon, I'll find a way to do it. ;)

[Urwen]

And.....there is no other way. Either I have to use Galadriel or it becomes more than six steps.

[Huinesoron]

No, no, I think we can do it (drawing shamelessly on your prior work):

1. Bill was sent on the quest by
2. Elrond, who was the herald of
3. Gil-Galad, who was the son of
4. Orodreth, who was king over
5. Turin, who was kind of mean to
6. Mim.

I wanted to go via Legolas, but you have to use both Thranduil and Oropher to get a confirmed connection to Thingol, and then you don't have space to reach Mim.

Oh, but can we do:

1. Bill was best buds with
2. Sam, who met
3. Celeborn, who was kin to
4. Thingol, who sent out
5. Beleg, who was hated by
6. Mim?

I'm not sure if the Celeborn-Thingol link is strong enough, though.

hS

[Urwen]

No, no, I think we can do it (drawing shamelessly on your prior work):

1. Bill was sent on the quest by
2. Elrond, who was the herald of
3. Gil-Galad, who was the son of
4. Orodreth, who was king over
5. Turin, who was kind of mean to
6. Mim.

I wanted to go via Legolas, but you have to use both Thranduil and Oropher to get a confirmed connection to Thingol, and then you don't have space to reach Mim.

Oh, but can we do:

1. Bill was best buds with
2. Sam, who met
3. Celeborn, who was kin to
4. Thingol, who sent out
5. Beleg, who was hated by
6. Mim?

I'm not sure if the Celeborn-Thingol link is strong enough, though.

hS


Off-Topic: What do you think about my latest post in Sil Parody thread?

[Nerwen]

New riddle's up.

Huey, I guess yours work, but what if I told you it can be done without using Sam (or any member of the Fellowship) either?.:cool:

[Urwen]

Well, I got it correct the first time, and the rest are just the bonus challenges. So, er, could I continue the game or not?

[Huinesoron]

Well, I got it correct the first time, and the rest are just the bonus challenges. So, er, could I continue the game or not?

Please do! But forgive me for also answering the bonus bonus bonus(...) challenge too. :)

hS

[Nerwen]

Well, I got it correct the first time, and the rest are just the bonus challenges. So, er, could I continue the game or not?
Sure.

[Huinesoron]

New riddle's up.

Huey, I guess yours work, but what if I told you it can be done without using Sam (or any member of the Fellowship) either?.:cool:

I would say 'Elrond isn't in the Fellowship'. :p But okay, how about this?

1. Bill was present when the hobbits met
2. Glorfindel, who was fellow Lord of Gondolin with
3. Tuor, who once on the road met
4. Turin, who was still fairly mean to
5. Mim.

I can't see any way to get anywhere from Barliman Butterbur or Bill Ferny - they seem to lead only back to the Fellowship or Maiar. The Nazgul only take me to Glorfindel again. And I really wanted to use the Watcher in the Water, which took Oin, letting us reach into The Hobbit - but the quickest ways I could pull that off were Bill-Watcher-Oin-Dain-Durin's Bane-Morgoth-Hurin-Mim and Bill-Watcher-Oin-Thranduil-Thingol-Turin-Mim, which are 8 and 7 respectively.

hS

[Nerwen]

Well, I guess that works too. But what I was thinking of was-

1. Bill carried Sam to the Havens to meet
2. Círdan who, back in the Elder Days, sent
3. Gelmir and Arminas to Nargothrond, where they spoke to
4. Túrin who as you mention was really rather mean to
5. Mîm.

[Urwen]

Time for another hard one, ey

Maeglin - > Bereg

Can you connect the traitors? :D

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Maeglin, son of
Aredhel, daughter of
Fingolfin, uncle of
Finrod, who met
Beor, forefather of
Bereg

[Urwen]

Beor and Bereg didn't have a direct contact, though. Nor are they directly related.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well Bereg was Beor's great-grandson. But let's try this:

Maeglin was the son of
Eol, who was scorned by
Curufin, brother of
Maedhros, who took into service
Amlach, whose Melkorian doppelganger supported
Bereg

[Huinesoron]

Well Bereg was Beor's great-grandson.

My assumption has been that the 'relatives' rule is to account for 'they obviously met, because they're siblings/parent and child, but the book never says'.

Of course, opinions have differed... I've spent a bit of time looking at the early parts of this thread, and I definitely saw someone attempt to directly link Aragorn with Earendil. :D

hS

[Urwen]

Well Bereg was Beor's great-grandson. But let's try this:

Maeglin was the son of
Eol, who was scorned by
Curufin, brother of
Maedhros, who took into service
Amlach, whose Melkorian doppelganger supported
Bereg



Continue.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

OK, here goes:

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins -> Ulmo

[Huinesoron]

OK, here goes:

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins -> Ulmo

Hmm... how about this?

1. Lobelia bought Bag-End from
2. Frodo, who was rescued by
3. Glorfindel, who served under
4. Turgon, who was very fond of
5. Tuor, who was the messenger of
6. Ulmo.

I'd need to check the book to see if Goldilocks and Tuor interacted directly, but can definitely hit it in 6 through Turgon.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Hmm... how about this?

1. Lobelia bought Bag-End from
2. Frodo, who was rescued by
3. Glorfindel, who served under
4. Turgon, who was very fond of
5. Tuor, who was the messenger of
6. Ulmo.

I'd need to check the book to see if Goldilocks and Tuor interacted directly, but can definitely hit it in 6 through Turgon.

hS

That works fine, although my path was

1 Lobelia was thrown into the Lockholes with
2 Will Whitfoot, who preceded in office
3 Sam, who was at the Council with
4 Galdor, who was an emissary from
5 Cirdan, who spoke with
6 Ulmo

[Huinesoron]

So a little while back I started mapping all of the connections that have been made so far in this thread. 13 pages in, most of the Fellowship have made a bunch of appearances, and have been cross-linked with each other and with the likes of Elrond and Galadriel.

... except Boromir. In 13 pages, he only appeared once - and that linking Denethor to Aragorn, when they actually met directly.

I want to give Boromir his due, but I also like the whole 'linking two people with the same name' thing. Now, I could ask you to link him to Boromir of Ladros... except that that would just leave him sitting uselessly on the end of a chain. What's needed is for Boromir to be within a chain, and therefore:

Denethor II of Gondor > Denethor, King of Ossiriand

... by way of Boromir. :cool:

hS

[Nerwen]

Denethor ll - Boromir - Galadriel - Thingol - Denethor of Ossiriand?

[Huinesoron]

That works nicely. :) I forget what I had, but it was something like that, and definitely a 5.

Over to you.

hS

[Urwen]

By Nerwen's leave......

Tar-Miriel - > Hurin (Thalion)

:D

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tar-Miriel was married to
Ar-Pharazon, who was duped by
Sauron, who worked for
Morgoth, who tormented
Hurin

[Urwen]

And this is where I'll be evil. Do it without any Ainu. :smokin:

[Huinesoron]

1. Tar-Miriel was pals with
2. Elendil, who fought alongside
3. Gil-Galad, who was the son of
4. Orodreth, who totally adored
5. Turin, who was the son of
6. Hurin Thalion, Lord of the House of Hador.

Once again we take the Last Alliance Highway back to the First Age. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Your turn.

[Huinesoron]

Legolas > Gimli.

...

Oh, sorry, that's:

Legolas, scout of the House of the Tree > Gimli, blind Noldo thrall of Tevildo

Welcome to the Book of Lost Tales. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, I am up for trying this.


Gimli - Beren - Finrod - Orodreth - Turin - Tuor - Legolas


I wonder if I could remove Finrod too, as I imagine Beren and Orodreth have met......

[Urwen]

At least provide some sort of response.... >.>

[Huinesoron]

At least provide some sort of response.... >.>

I have been spending the day with my family. Unlike a decade and a half ago, people on the internet are not as important as they are. :)

Okay, I am up for trying this.

Gimli - Beren - Finrod - Orodreth - Turin - Tuor - Legolas

I wonder if I could remove Finrod too, as I imagine Beren and Orodreth have met......

I think I had something like that, yeah. I think either Finrod or Orodreth is specifically mentioned as hanging out with Turgon in Valinor, so that lets you chop out one step, but overall this works fine.

Thread is yours.

hS

[Urwen]

Glaurung -> Smaug

[Morsul the Dark]

Glaurung created by Morgoth brother of Manwe who sent Gandalf to Middle Earth who sent Bilbo to the Lonely Mountain facing Smaug

Glaurung-Morgoth~Manwe-Gandalf-Bilbo-Smaug

[Urwen]

Correct.

[Morsul the Dark]

Gorbag>Thorondor

[Huinesoron]

Gorbag>Thorondor

How many assumptions am I allowed?

GORBAG was a captain of Minas Morgul, and therefore served
THE NAZGUL, who took wing at the Black Gate against
GWAIHIR and the Eagles; and Gwaihir was the vassal of
THORONDOR.

Though I think every stage of that includes an assumption of some kind. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Mine is Gorbag - Shagrat - Mouth of Sauron - Gandalf - Gwaihir - Thorondor

[Morsul the Dark]

Both use Gwaihir which is a connection I missed, I looked up an obscure character (to me) I didn’t realize being immortal he and Gwaihir rescued some folks together. I think Urwen uses less assumptions. So Urwen I think gets it

My initial track was Gorbag slain by Sam friend of Elrond son Ereandil who led the eagles into battle alongside Thorondor.

[Urwen]

Here is a tough cookie

Zimraphel - > Eldacar

[Huinesoron]

Here is a tough cookie

Zimraphel - > Eldacar

So... which Eldacar? Because Eldacar of Arnor was the grandson of Isildur, which gives us:

Zimraphel > Elendil > Isildur > Valandil > Eldacar.

But there's also an Eldacar of Gondor, who I admit would be a mite trickier.

hS

[Urwen]

The one of Gondor. :smokin:

[Huinesoron]

I've been trying to reach an immortal by hopping down the family tree to the Princes of Dol Amroth, but I wind up with Amroth as #9, so it's way too long.

hS

[Urwen]

In that case, I'll accept your first answer.

[Huinesoron]

In that case, I'll accept your first answer.

But my first answer was not correct (except technically, which is the best kind of correct).

I wouldn't be able to put up another one tonight anyway, so there's no harm letting people think for longer than 12 hours. :)

hS

[Huinesoron]

So then, where can we go from Eldacar?

-Down towards Mithrellas. This takes far too many steps.

-Across to Castamir the Usurper. So far as I can tell, Castamir and his descendents never had direct contact with Sauron, so this looks like a dead end.

-Up to his Northman ancestry. But where then? They're entirely self-contained, and their battles contain no named enemies (for instance, Nazgul).

-Up the family tree? Eldacar directly overlaps as far up as Calmacil, who overlaps up to Hyarmendacil I, who overlaps up to Falastar and Beruthiel. That's nine Kings of Gondor; surely at least one of them must have met Gil-Galad or someone?

... no. Apparently not. Not according to their own Gateway pages, at any rate.

So who might have run into the Kings of Gondor? Saruman is an option, but he was in the East for most of this time period. Galadriel and Celeborn maybe; apparently they were hanging out in Edhellond, but there's no recorded contact with Minas Anor. Amroth and Elrond seem to have kept to themselves.

How about this?

-Eldacar overlaps by 110 years with his grandfather
-Romendacil II, who built the
-Pillars of the Arganoth, which were later passed by
-Aragorn, who was fostered by
-Elrond, who fought alongside
-Elendil, who knew
-Zimraphel.

Only that's seven. But there is this:

-Eldacar fought in the Kin-Strife, during which the
-Osgiliath-stone was lost, having been originally placed by
-Elendil, who obviously knew
-Zimraphel?

Only, y'know... inanimate objects. So how about this?

-Eldacar overlapped by 36 years with his great-grandson
-Minardil, who overlapped by about fifty years with his grandson
-Tarondor, who planted the
-Third White Tree of Gondor, which was a sapling of the
-Second White Tree of Gondor, which was planted by
-Isildur, who knew
-Zimraphel.

Only living things, but it still hits seven.

Any pointers on where to start out?

hS

[Urwen]

Your second solution is good to go.

Try my riddle as well.

[Huinesoron]

So did your solution also go via the palantir of Orthanc? I'm insatiably curious.

hS

[Urwen]

So did your solution also go via the palantir of Orthanc? I'm insatiably curious.

hS

I had no real solution. I just threw that one to be evil.

[Huinesoron]

I had no real solution. I just threw that one to be evil.

:O You fiend!

So, the original Miriel was (according to one account) known as Firiel after her rebirth, since she was hanging out with Vaire. There are a couple of other Firiels, but let's do the less tragic* one:

Firiel (AKA Miriel) -- Firiel Fairbairn

(And if you can pass through Firiel of Gondor, so much the better!)

*Unless the connection of her with the Firiel of 'The Last Ship' is correct.

hS

[Urwen]

Firiel - Elanor - Sam - Elrond - Maedhros - Feanor - Firiel
Firiel - Elanor - Sam - Elrond - Maglor - Feanor - Firiel

I could try doing it in lesser steps, but it'd be difficult...

P.S: Could you try my riddle, or is it too much work for you?

[Huinesoron]

Firiel - Elanor - Sam - Elrond - Maedhros - Feanor - Firiel
Firiel - Elanor - Sam - Elrond - Maglor - Feanor - Firiel

I could try doing it in lesser steps, but it'd be difficult...

Surely difficult is the point? It's been a while, but 'six degrees' means six names total, right?

hS

[Urwen]

Firiel Fairbairn - Elanor - Arwen - Galadriel - Feanor - Firiel

[Huinesoron]

Firiel Fairbairn - Elanor - Arwen - Galadriel - Feanor - Firiel

This works.

hS

[Urwen]

Speaking of same names......


Miriel - > Miriel

[Huinesoron]

I think one end of this has to be Gil-Galad/Elrond - Elendil - Miriel. There's no other avenues to Numenor apart from Sauron, and like the thread says, avoid.

Hmm... wait, I know someone who was close to Elrond:

Miriel > Feanor > Maglor > Elrond > Elendil > Miriel.

(Those are not 'greater than' signs. I would never place Feanor above Maglor.)

hS

[Urwen]

Spot on, and both me and my friend are glad you think so.

[Huinesoron]

Well, let's roll with the theme...

Firiel Fairbairn to Firiel of Gondor.

hS

[Urwen]

I have a link, but it goes through Sauron. Permission to use it?

[Urwen]

Ah-ha, found another link.

Firiel Fairbairn - Elanor - Sam - Cirdan - Aranarth - Firiel

(This with the assumption that Sam and Cirdan met when Sam sailed to the west)

[Urwen]

So....am I right, or am I not right?

[Huinesoron]

Yes, and good find with the Aranarth-Cirdan link.

hS

[Urwen]

How about Firiel of Gondor - Firiel?

[Huinesoron]

How about Firiel of Gondor - Firiel?

FIRIEL's son was
ARANARTH, whose gave the keeping of his son and heirlooms to
ELROND, who was himself the foster son of
MAGLOR, who was the son of
FEANOR, who was very taken with being the son of
FIRIEL aka Miriel Therinde.

hS

[Urwen]

Spot on, as I checked it out.

[Huinesoron]

Right then, this should please you: the two happiest characters in Middle-earth:

Merry Brandybuck -- Lalaith daughter of Húrin.

... without going through any member of House Finwë, because that lot are too miserable for this question.

hS

[Urwen]

I suppose Elrond does count as member of house Finwe.

Well then.

Merry - Celeborn - Thingol - Turin - Lalaith

[Huinesoron]

I suppose Elrond does count as member of house Finwe.

Well then.

Merry - Celeborn - Thingol - Turin - Lalaith

He does indeed. Your answer is what I got (though I suppose one could say Celeborn is a member too, by marriage... but that's going a little too far, don't you think?).

hS

[Urwen]

In honor of your Bad guy puzzle


Feanor - Ciryatan

[Morsul the Dark]

Fëanor > Melkor>Manwe> Atanamir> Ciryatan

Fëanor used by Melkor
Melkor to Manwe
Manwe corresponds with Atanamir son of Ciryatan

[Urwen]

The thread says to avoid using Morgoth or Sauron.

[Morsul the Dark]

I’ll keep looking technically unless it’s later on the original says avoid Saruman Gandalf and Sauron.

[Urwen]

Right, my bad. Please continue.

[Urwen]

Bump?

[Alphaelin]

In honor of your Bad guy puzzle


Feanor - Ciryatan

Feanor, half-brother of
Finarfin, father of
Angrod, father of
Orodreth, father of
Gil-Galad, who was fostered by
Cirdan, whose name in Quenya was Ciryatan

?

[Urwen]

Morsul?

[Urwen]

Okay, since Morsul won't continue this, anyone else up for taking over?

[Urwen]

Someone please continue. If you don't, I will. You have 48 hours.