Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?

I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.

As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.

Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.

As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A

Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.