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#1 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#2 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
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And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands. It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves. Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn. |
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#3 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea. Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West. Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#4 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action. As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details. As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A |
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#5 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply. Quote:
![]() Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf). In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told. The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#6 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife. I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 12-14-2012 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Saw ref to draft. |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway. Quote:
You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left. Quote:
The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale. Quote:
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No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought.. Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers. Quote:
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Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands. As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled. |
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#8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
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Originally posted by cellurdur:
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
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#9 | ||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 69
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Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works. Quote:
One time she was able to win in a struggle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien. "When they passed Dol Guldur in Mirkwood - where Sauron dwelled in secret - a darkness emanated from the fortress, and Eorl turned westward to avoid it. But then a white mist came from the woods of Lothlorien that stood across the River from Dol Guldur, and the Riders were hidden and continued safely on their way and, under the protection of the mist, apparently made the journey unwearyingly at an extraordinary rate of speed. " Apparently Galadriel was able to conquer Saurons shadow, so why not able to read his thoughts? Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-14-2012 at 12:31 PM. |
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#10 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Sauron was much greater than Galadriel and greater even than Gandalf the White. As I said before not even using the One Ring could Galadriel realistically defeat Sauron. What chance would she have without it? Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. There are several statements from Gandalf implying that only Sauron was more powerful than him in ME. "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." And so I am, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet unless you are brought alive before the seat of the dark lord. Quote:
he was none other than Sauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again. 2060-The power of Dol Guldur grows So yes he was much weaker, before his full powers were recovered. After they were recovered he was far too powerful for Galadriel or anyone else on Midddle Earth to deal with. Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation. Last edited by cellurdur; 12-14-2012 at 12:49 PM. |
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#11 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
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These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title. |
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#12 | ||||||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe. Quote:
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You accused me of not considering facts objectively, but here you are fabricating arguments. So do not do that if we want to remain on objective basis. Quote:
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The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#13 | ||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 69
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#14 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
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From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf. Last edited by cellurdur; 12-14-2012 at 02:13 PM. |
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#15 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Well, Arwen after all was the grand daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn who had spent time in Lorien. But after they depart, I agree with Legate that based on Galadriel and Celeborn not claiming direct rule over the Silvan elves in Lorien, then I can't see why they would suddenly take Arwen as their "Queen."
It reminds me of a peculiar line in The Hobbit which caused much discussion in the CBC thread: Quote:
But calling Elrond "their chief" would still be a courtesy title, because the Kings of Arnor, and then Chieftain of the Dunedain is an official hereditary position, being what is left of Isildur and Elendil's line. Elrond has no claim to the throne of Gondor, but his kinship and close bond to the Dunedain means he is a revered figure and is informally seen as "a chief" to them. This is how I read Arwen as "Queen of Elves and Men." It is a courtesy as one of the most respected and high lineage elf remaining in Middle-earth (also her marriage to Aragorn). Being the grand-daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, I can surely imagine she was well received in Lorien, but this doesn't mean had an official rulership title as their "Queen." And of course through Elrond she would have his claims. However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death, for there is no point. It's like when Arnor ceased to be a political entity, Amlaith had a claim to be the next "King of Arnor" but fell into dispute. Arnor split and Amlaith had every claim to give himself the title of "King of Arnor" but Arnor no longer existed. So, it really becomes moot and an empty title.
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Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 12-14-2012 at 02:40 PM. |
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#16 | |||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Luthien never tried to claim any form of queenship. Even after the death of Thingol she did not try and claim the kingdom of Doriath. She instead left it for Dior. Quote:
As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time. To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her? Quote:
Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it. Then Bard II, Brand's son, became king in the Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dain's son, became the king under the mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of Elessar and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship, with Gondor, and they under the crown and the protection of the King of the West. Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East. Quote:
Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed. Quote:
Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave. Quote:
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Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men. Last edited by cellurdur; 12-14-2012 at 02:21 PM. |
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#17 | |||||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave. Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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