Bio-warfare In Middle-earth

[Galadriel55]

Where did the Enlightenment/Renaissance debate come from? It doesn't seem that relevant to the subject, other than specific examples of war tactics, and bottom line, who cares what time period they were technically from, it's the specific examples that matter. Certainly the perception of the plagues in ME could have followed the general view of the spread of diseases before the role of microorganisms was established (and Enlightenment or not, there are still people today who refuse to do some treatments for unscientific, even superstitious reasons. Heck, I refuse to take pills for very unscientific reasons, and I pay my tuition to learn how they work, among other things). It's not what happened in each real-world history period that matters, or where the boundaries lie between periods. Middle-earth history draws ideas in part from real-world history, in part from real-world legends and myths, which makes these topics relevant, but shouldn't make them the subject matter of the discussion.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

P.S. In any case, I apologize for going so far afield and dealing in such extraneous debate, and returning to Sauron, I still feel he or Morgoth didn't invent the plague; they were either agents for spreading it, or took an evil delight in taking credit for it. Particularly since Tolkien inferred that Sauron, at least, could not control it from decimating his own minions.

Certainly. I do not think that Sauron or Morgoth purposefully (or accidentally, for that matter) created the plague. Perhaps I'm taking this too much like a Pandora's box, but it seems to me that once the perfection of the world was ruined, it was ruined with all the ruin known to man at once. It's just that you can't have all the bad stuff happening simultaneously, it happens bit by bit, and it can be controlled and directed. And we know from the horse's mouth that neither one could really create. However, I still believe that the plagues could have been a ripple of the Dark Lords' mood mirrored in nature. Either way, they were not a conscious creation, but just a use of something already present. I might only disagree with you on whether the use of conscious or not, but that's just a matter of personal preference.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Where did the Enlightenment/Renaissance debate come from?

Yes, could some more be done to link this back to Professor Tolkien's work and the Great Plague of the Third Age? Given that much of Professor Tolkien's writing harks back to an early medieval and somewhat "unRomanised" Germanic culture (or at least an idealisation of it) it seems to me that that would be the era to focus on.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, I still believe that the plagues could have been a ripple of the Dark Lords' mood mirrored in nature. Either way, they were not a conscious creation, but just a use of something already present. I might only disagree with you on whether the use of conscious or not, but that's just a matter of personal preference.

This is a good point which could be compared to the scene in Book 4 of The Lord of the Rings in which the brooding of Sauron appears to influence the weather:
"The skirts of the storm were lifting, ragged and wet, and the main battle had passed to spread its great wings over the Emyn Muil; upon which the dark thought of Sauron brooded for a while. Thence it turned, smiting the Vale of Anduin with hail and lightning, and casting its shadow upon Minas Tirith with threat of war. Then, lowering in the mountains, and gathering its great spires, it rolled on slowly over Gondor and the skirts of Rohan, until far away the Riders on the plain saw its black towers moving behind the sun, as they rode into the West."
This also refers back to your "pathetic fallacy" concept very neatly
That being said I could imagine that while Sauron may not have been the originator of the plague, he may have, again, "encouraged" it to be transmitted westwards. There's something particularly horrifying about the image of an enemy who hated the Dúnedain so much that he encouraged mass migrations, diseases and so on in an effort to destroy them over three thousand years and more.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There was also the pestilence which Morgoth sent into Hithlum, which killed Turin's sister Lalith among many others. Of course Morgoth was a Vala; but then, he too couldn't "create," only corrupt.

[Nerwen]

So, while the original question posed in this thread was about Sauron's biological warfare strategy, the 2016 uh, renaissance* concerns the nature of "plague" in Middle-earth? Well, I'd say there isn't a single answer- as others have mentioned, these are presented as writings by people who would tend to see disease in terms of magic; l think it's ultimately up to the reader whether or not to look through the lens of modern science for the "real" version of events.





*runs for cover.

[Ivriniel]

how did the Dark Lords stop the pestilence annihilating the Orcs? when I read the stuff about plague in materials, I always hazarded that the plagues were not so much contrived, but a natural consequence of the lack of hygiene in Orc warrens.

I imagine that numbers of both friends and foes dropped significantly, although, the Dark Lords probably knew Orcs multiplied more quickly than Numenoreans.

We never heard if plague affected the Elves. I don't think it did.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

how did the Dark Lords stop the pestilence annihilating the Orcs? when I read the stuff about plague in materials, I always hazarded that the plagues were not so much contrived, but a natural consequence of the lack of hygiene in Orc warrens.

I imagine that numbers of both friends and foes dropped significantly, although, the Dark Lords probably knew Orcs multiplied more quickly than Numenoreans.

We never heard if plague affected the Elves. I don't think it did.

If the Orcs were 'corrupted' Elves, they should have at least some measure of an Elf's innate disease immunity. Even if that resistance was diluted, perhaps it provided enough protection that Morgoth (and Sauron) weren't overly concerned about casualties in their own forces.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If the Orcs were 'corrupted' Elves, they should have at least some measure of an Elf's innate disease immunity. Even if that resistance was diluted, perhaps it provided enough protection that Morgoth (and Sauron) weren't overly concerned about casualties in their own forces.

Interesting. If corrupted Elves (ie the neo theory that they weren't might have bearing on this item).

We didn't learn much about their lifespan etc and native resilience, except that they bore young in the same manner as Elves and Men. I've been wanting to look at the Black Silmarillion to see if there was anything interesting in it about stuff like that.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If the Orcs were 'corrupted' Elves, they should have at least some measure of an Elf's innate disease immunity. Even if that resistance was diluted, perhaps it provided enough protection that Morgoth (and Sauron) weren't overly concerned about casualties in their own forces.

Given the corruption of the Orcish hröa I would say that it's possible they lost the Elvish immunity to disease in the same way that they lost their longevity and the like, "the fëa dragging down the hröa in its descent into Morgothism." (Morgoth's Ring) Professor Tolkien mentions this in the context of the properties of Elvish fëa and hröa, and how corruption of the former corrupted the latter, so I would say this is a possibility.

I think it's altogether likely that Sauron, if he did instigate the plague, damaged his own people as well, but expected in the subsequent generations that they would replenish themselves more than sufficiently, which they did. I don't expect that Orcs and the like were immune any more than the Easterlings surely weren't.