Balrog and The One Ring

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But what would Sauron think with the hand of Eru violently drowning Numenor, destroying the greatest armada ever assembled under Ar-Pharazon, and reshaping the very earth itself after interceding for the Valar? What would Sauron think when his own ruin was almost encompassed in that vengeful tidal wave initiated by Illuvatar Himself? Sauron could not possibly hold any hope for Morgoth's release when the hand of God was against him. And Sauron indeed knew it was Eru who had caused the great tumult:

"For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon the sea and land."

Like Morgoth, Sauron's reach had exceeded his grasp, and Sauron decided that Valinor was out of reach of Middle-earth forever. He would concentrate his power on the sole dominion of the world that is as Tyrannus Imperator and God of this World, eschewing any thought of Morgoth's return.

As for the Balrog, it was an age and more that it was under any direction from his Dark Lord, Morgorth. The Balrog was a Maia, like Sauron, and seeing Gandalf's fearful denial of the Ring and Saruman's descent from greatness to degeneracy at the mere consideration of holding the Ring, would not the Balrog, too, succumb to the Ring's lure? The Balrog was not like the Wraiths, beholden to Sauron for their existence and enslaved by Rings of their own. He was not some automaton moving at the behest of Sauron. He would not blithely surrender up such a thing as powerful and tempting as the One Ring because Tolkien was quite specific about the effects on even the greatest of beings.

As I pointed out in my prior post, the issue has less to do with Sauron's Faithfulness to Morgoth, and more to do with the Balrog's.

I quote from Morgoth's Ring (in my previous post) a note that Tolkien made regarding Balrogs, and how they remained the most Faithful of Morgoth's servants.

The latter part of that post contains a response to your last question.

And... I suspect you will find that Tolkien was less specific on the effects of the One Ring than you imagine.

His descriptions dealt merely with those who sought to use the One Ring, or withhold it from its Rightful Owner. Absent in those descriptions are what effects it has upon co-evals of Sauron and Servants of Morgoth of similar power and "kind."

Can we really assume that the effects of the One Ring are similar in effort upon/between those who are "Good" (Capital-G) and those who are already "Evil" (Capital-E)?

Would not that assumption require the thing that Tolkien himself failed to reach: a Functional Metaphysics for Middle-earth that would have allowed him to define the mechanism by which the One Ring operated?

MB

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

As I pointed out in my prior post, the issue has less to do with Sauron's Faithfulness to Morgoth, and more to do with the Balrog's.

I quote from Morgoth's Ring (in my previous post) a note that Tolkien made regarding Balrogs, and how they remained the most Faithful of Morgoth's servants.

The latter part of that post contains a response to your last question.

And... I suspect you will find that Tolkien was less specific on the effects of the One Ring than you imagine.

His descriptions dealt merely with those who sought to use the One Ring, or withhold it from its Rightful Owner. Absent in those descriptions are what effects it has upon co-evals of Sauron and Servants of Morgoth of similar power and "kind."

Can we really assume that the effects of the One Ring are similar in effort upon/between those who are "Good" (Capital-G) and those who are already "Evil" (Capital-E)?

Would not that assumption require the thing that Tolkien himself failed to reach: a Functional Metaphysics for Middle-earth that would have allowed him to define the mechanism by which the One Ring operated?

MB

You make the claim in a previous post that the Balrogs followed Morgoth "robotically". Funny thing, a Balrog wisely fleeing the imprisonment of his master, like another Maia, Sauron. One would think a robot would have laid down its life for its master, rather than running and hiding. That would indicate to me a being with a will of its own, and completely uninterested in sharing his master's fate.

It's also interesting that you make the assumption that the One Ring would be radically different in the hands of one set of Maia as it would be wielded by another, as if the E and the G would make much of a difference if the Ring was presented to one or the other. It's true the only Evil characters seeking the Ring were the Nazgul and they were already in thrall to the One Ring, and so do not count in the equation. I would say that, given the information we do have, that the Ring is inherently addictive, so much so that Saruman the Maia became obsessed by it without even seeing or touching it. And I think its fairly clear in the story that if he found the Ring he would not be handing it to Sauron.

Here's an interesting question: do you think if Morgoth returned to Middle-earth and Sauron was in possession of the Ring, would he, at the end of the 3rd Age, surrender it to Morgoth?

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You make the claim in a previous post that the Balrogs followed Morgoth "robotically". Funny thing, a Balrog wisely fleeing the imprisonment of his master, like another Maia, Sauron. One would think a robot would have laid down its life for its master, rather than running and hiding. That would indicate to me a being with a will of its own, and completely uninterested in sharing his master's fate.

Pardon the confusion about Robotically. That word tends to carry a different connotation for me (and those with whom I most regularly use the term) than is typically used, and I used it without thinking of the context.

The word was not meant to imply the Balrogs have no Will, only that they are rigorously faithful to a set of operational principles.

It's also interesting that you make the assumption that the One Ring would be radically different in the hands of one set of Maia as it would be wielded by another, as if the E and the G would make much of a difference if the Ring was presented to one or the other. It's true the only Evil characters seeking the Ring were the Nazgul and they were already in thrall to the One Ring, and so do not count in the equation. I would say that, given the information we do have, that the Ring is inherently addictive, so much so that Saruman the Maia became obsessed by it without even seeing or touching it. And I think its fairly clear in the story that if he found the Ring he would not be handing it to Sauron.

No, not radically different in the hands of one set of Maia as it would be "wielded" by another.

My point is that the Balrog would have No interest in wielding it at all. Much like Faramir, or Gandalf.

Because the Operational Principles under which the Balrogs act is to maximize the Power of their Master(s) (being Morgoth and Sauron).

And the One Ring in their possession would not maximize that power, it would diminish it.

This is an area where there is some contention regarding the nature of the One Ring. And I think that the movie tends to act to a great deal in propagating that contention by treating the One Ring as if it were some overwhelming addictive force against which all were immediately (instead of ultimately) powerless.

Even Frodo only used the One Ring three times, and all the while he remained Faithful to the cause of destroying it, right up to the Ultimate Act itself, where he failed.

The Balrog is going to have different motivations from people like Saruman, or Sauron, whom Tolkien depicted as Fully Realized Agents, rather than the subservient Elemental manifestation of Horror, Terror, Fire, and Darkness that are the Balrogs.

In that respect, the One Ring seems to mostly Corrupt Good, while Furthering the goals of Evil. The Balrog isn't "Good." It begins as "Evil" (already Corrupted, AGES LONG SINCE Corrupted).

The One Ring manifests through corrupting the motivations of People who seek to claim it, or use it.

Thus the Balrog has two things going for it that make the One Ring's relationship to the Balrog different:

1) The Motivations of the Balrog are not to Dominate and Control (which is what Sauron poured of his Will into the One Ring).
2) The Balrog is already Corrupted. It is already going to seek out what will maximize Evil.

Here's an interesting question: do you think if Morgoth returned to Middle-earth and Sauron was in possession of the Ring, would he, at the end of the 3rd Age, surrender it to Morgoth?

Nope, because:

1) Morgoth doesn't seek to Dominate other Peoples. He seeks to Dominate the Fabric of Reality, and to Create in his own Right. It is a pity that Morgoth's Ring isn't digital, because this is one Aspect of Morgoth that Tolkien himself spelled out (and having a digital copy would allow me to do a quick search for the Quote - I am in the process of re-reading it right now, and will eventually discover that quote. I will be sure to post it in this thread when I find it).

This does not mean that Morgoth is wholly uninterested in Enslaving the Children of Ilúvatar. Only that this interest is itself not his Primary Interest. It is merely subservient to his Primary Goal of Dominating Arda itself. Morgoth seems to have left the Nuts-and-Bolts of Temporal Power to Sauron. Again, somewhere in Morgoth's Ring there is a quote by Tolkien to this effect, and I will locate it within the next few days (making a note to myself to make a note of it here when i locate it).

2) Morgoth doesn't need a Firecracker when he has the equivalent of Nuclear Weapons. Again, from Morgoth's Ring (only this time I have the Quote); p. xi.:

. . . for this reason have I chosen Morgoth's Ring as the title of this book. It derives from a passage in my father's essay 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion' (pp. 394 ff.), in which he contrasted the nature of Sauron's power, concentrated in the One Ring, with that of Morgoth, enormously greater, but dispersed or disseminated into the very matter of Arda: 'the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring'.

[Emphasis Mine]

The One Ring has an overblown reputation in this sense, in that people seem to thing that it is the Ultimate Power for Evil in Middle-earth. Morgoth is that Ultimate Power. Morgoth IS SATAN.

Yet to Morgoth, the One Ring would be a trinket; a bauble made by one of his Servants, which itself is made of the Substance of Morgoth's Ring. Satan does not need to usurp the devices of his Servants. Doing so would diminish them, and thus Satan himself.

So, again, the One Ring would be best used to/for Morgoth's Ends in the hands of Sauron... Not in the hands of Morgoth himself. Morgoth would not seek to diminish the power of his Agents and Servants to act on his behalf. And that is what (pointlessly) taking the One Ring from Sauron would do.

And... Yes, I am aware that Tolkien said that Sauron had grown in power since the end of the First Age. But the Writings in Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels post-date the Writing of The Lord of the Rings. And they remain consistent in Pointing out that Morgoth remains the (Ultimate) Source of ALL Evil within Arda (and Ëa).

In Metaphysical terms, the mass of his Fëa (and thus Evil) is tremendous compared to that of Sauron, even with some sort of amplifying property of the One Ring for Sauron's Fëa (and thus Evil).

MB