Balrog and The One Ring

[Zigûr]

Yes apologies for the long digression about Sauron; it's just a personal interest of mine. My first ever topic here was on the subject of what his attitude towards Morgoth was after the First Age and how much of his agenda was his own.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

But given the Balrogs representation as following the Will of Morgoth almost robotically, I would think that they would seek to Surrender the One Ring back to Sauron, and then act as if Sauron was the Earthly Proxy of Morgoth, as indeed you suggest he is.

It might be worth considering this statement from Morgoth's Ring about Melkor/Morgoth's weakening:

"One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', Orcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control."

This implies that the Balrogs still had some measure of independence (even if by accident), but perhaps a rather weak one. Maybe it was "waiting" for further orders from Morgoth (which of course never came). Might their "robotic" characteristics, then, perhaps be attributed to the Will of Morgoth being upon them? I'm reminded, for instance, of how when the Ring was destroyed the forces of Sauron were "witless and purposeless". Perhaps without the Will of Morgoth upon it, a Balrog might be somewhat mindless and similarly "purposeless", hence its apparent willingness to stay in Moria for hundreds of years and only emerge if roused by some disturbance or other, and then apparently only by performing what had then become its primary purpose: seeking to destroy.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

So... Maybe it would have taken the One Ring had it fallen into the Balrog's lap, and then just sat in Moria until Sauron came along to ask for his Ring back?

It seems like a possibility. I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll simply never know.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yes apologies for the long digression about Sauron; it's just a personal interest of mine. My first ever topic here was on the subject of what his attitude towards Morgoth was after the First Age and how much of his agenda was his own.

It might be worth considering this statement from Morgoth's Ring about Melkor/Morgoth's weakening:

This implies that the Balrogs still had some measure of independence (even if by accident), but perhaps a rather weak one. Maybe it was "waiting" for further orders from Morgoth (which of course never came). Might their "robotic" characteristics, then, perhaps be attributed to the Will of Morgoth being upon them? I'm reminded, for instance, of how when the Ring was destroyed the forces of Sauron were "witless and purposeless". Perhaps without the Will of Morgoth upon it, a Balrog might be somewhat mindless and similarly "purposeless", hence its apparent willingness to stay in Moria for hundreds of years and only emerge if roused by some disturbance or other, and then apparently only by performing what had then become its primary purpose: seeking to destroy.

The Quote of Tolkien regarding the "Weakening" of Morgoth is something that I was taking into consideration.

Also, I do not mean to imply that "Robotic" means "Without Will."

I used the term without giving thought to the audience. I am used to using the term with an audience for whom the word (Robotic) has a very different meaning than typically used. I defined it in my previous post, as being Rigorously Faithful to a set of Operational Principles (be that an Optimization Function of some sort, or some other directive).

And the episode at the end of The Lord of the Rings needs to be informed by the fact that this failure of their "Will" was not complete, or permanent. Nor was Sauron completely destroyed (as only Eru can do that). Sauron was simply "dispersed" by the Valar to prevent him from remaining as a coherent Will and Force of Evil.

Elessar still had to spend years eliminating pockets of Organized Resistance from the remnants of Orcs and other creatures serving Sauron.

The sudden chaos among Sauron's servants seems to be more likely due to Shock of the loss of Will, which, like any Shock, would recover somewhat after a time.

And... Recall that Morgoth's Will is not completely absent from Middle-earth. His Will is a part of the very Fabric of Middle-earth, as the result of Arda Marred.

But that Will is very much diminished, which could account for the Balrog's lack of any drive to act.

It seems like a possibility. I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll simply never know.

My suspicion is that the Balrog would remain Faithful to Morgoth, and thus to Sauron, who was Morgoth's recognized subordinate and proxy.

At least the Balrog would do so as long as it perceived Sauron to be remaining Faithful to Morgoth, which is a point of contention.

Was Sauron acting solely cynically and opportunistically in spreading Morgothism?

Or did he still genuinely revere Morgoth as the Rightful Lord and God of Arda?

Or was he doing both?

Perhaps Sauron was just having a "Crisis of Faith" due to the setbacks of his Master, and that had Smaug, and the Balrog managed to be rallied to his side, he would have again acted in the name of Morgoth, rather than in his own right.

Also, a point I missed earlier....

It is not a contradiction that Sauron should seek veneration as a God himself while still recognizing a superior deity (Morgoth). This is a central feature of Pagan religions (That the Gods have a Hierarchy), and we even see this to an extent among Catholicism with the veneration of Saints. Also, the various Satan/Lucifer Myths that detail a litany of subordinate Demons show that many of the Demons were worshipped in their own right while still respecting the suzerainty of Satan/Lucifer.

But overall I think that the issue of the One Ring is overblown when dealing with the Greater Demons in service to Morgoth, or other creatures in his service; as if the One Ring was the source of Ultimate Evil and Power.

Especially in light of how those (horrific) movies portrayed the One Ring.

While the One Ring is especially important to the Mythology of the Later Ages of Middle-earth, and is incredibly powerful in Light of the remaining "Powers" within Middle-earth, it should pale in comparison to Morgoth, even diminished.

It is sort of like the difference between a gun, and the tide of the ocean.

Sauron's Ring is like a Gun, capable of putting extreme power into the hands of a single person.

While Morgoth's power is like that of the tides of the ocean: Vast, and immense beyond compare to the power of the Gun; capable of re-shaping the world itself, and moving continents, given the time.

With the gun you can point it at people, and use it to Dominate to your will those so threatened. Yet one who controlled the tides could lay waste to entire regions of the Earth.

MB

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

It is not a contradiction that Sauron should seek veneration as a God himself while still recognizing a superior deity (Morgoth). This is a central feature of Pagan religions (That the Gods have a Hierarchy), and we even see this to an extent among Catholicism with the veneration of Saints. Also, the various Satan/Lucifer Myths that detail a litany of subordinate Demons show that many of the Demons were worshipped in their own right while still respecting the suzerainty of Satan/Lucifer.

An interesting point. Personally I prefer an incredibly arrogant Sauron who thought that his old master was a failure, that God was "dead" (or at least disinterested) and saw himself as the only person in existence with the right approach to, and way of thinking about, the world.

That might be a personal thing, however. I find Sauron a little more interesting than Morgoth (although I find both characters interesting, especially the differences between them).

Originally Posted by Marwhini

But overall I think that the issue of the One Ring is overblown when dealing with the Greater Demons in service to Morgoth, or other creatures in his service; as if the One Ring was the source of Ultimate Evil and Power.

Another interesting point, although as a means of controlling minds (as opposed to Morgoth's interest in dominating matter) I find it to have its own significance in terms of the themes it represents.

Is it worth considering the notion that as Morgoth dispersed himself into the world he actually lost control of that "evil"? It seems to me that was the case, that "evil" came from Melkor but "Morgoth" the person no longer actually had that much control over it. It might work in his favour – but it might not, hence evil's tendency to be self-destructive.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

An interesting point. Personally I prefer an incredibly arrogant Sauron who thought that his old master was a failure, that God was "dead" (or at least disinterested) and saw himself as the only person in existence with the right approach to, and way of thinking about, the world.

That might be a personal thing, however. I find Sauron a little more interesting than Morgoth (although I find both characters interesting, especially the differences between them).

There are more than a few commentaries that point out that Sauron was always the more proactive of the characters.

Tom Shippey even goes as far as to say that it might have actually been Sauron who ran the nuts-and-bolts operations of Morgoth; that Morgoth was so consumed by Rage and Hatred that it caused an almost paralysis, and that it was left to Sauron to conduct the day-to-day business.

I also read a paper that suggested it was Sauron who did the actual work of "corrupting" the Elves and Humans to create Orcs, and Dragons (and other monsters) from the pre-existing creatures or beings of Arda. I found it to be pretty convincing.

But I still don't think that is contradictory to having Sauron remain Faithful to Morgoth.

As Tolkien points out, Sauron is well aware of the cosmology of Arda, and as such would know that ultimately his goals were only possible because of Morgoth's Rebellion; that ultimately his own power(s) were caught up in the existence of Morgoth.

Unfortunately, though, this is largely a narrative issue which Tolkien did not address (Curses!!!), and in terms of the unfolding of Plot, there exist many different interpretations that could be taken.

Where I disagree with Sauron "rebelling" against Morgoth is that it is hung too closely upon Saruman's Rebellion from the Istari, and thus the theme that so many have of Evil being its own Undoing.

That is a theme that largely exists in only one place (The Lord of the Rings), and in a character who has a very conflicted loyalty and set of goals (The goals for Saruman remain the same, they just become perverted by his study of evil). Sauron himself isn't conflicted in that regard, and his goals remain the same goals they have been pretty much since the First Age, if not before. Any "perversion" of Sauron occurred in the countless millennia prior to the Third Age, and we see no deviation from his prior goals.

I just think people are too quick to make everything an "Evil being its own undoing" event, when those were rare exceptions and not the rule (which was that Evil makes things vastly worse than they were previously).

Another interesting point, although as a means of controlling minds (as opposed to Morgoth's interest in dominating matter) I find it to have its own significance in terms of the themes it represents.

Is it worth considering the notion that as Morgoth dispersed himself into the world he actually lost control of that "evil"? It seems to me that was the case, that "evil" came from Melkor but "Morgoth" the person no longer actually had that much control over it. It might work in his favour – but it might not, hence evil's tendency to be self-destructive.

Again.... I think that is looking too hard for an "Evil is its own undoing" moment. That Morgoth was consumed by his Hatred and Rage is something we have no shortage of evidence for (and thus was usually a malevolent force off-stage). Even Tolkien comments on this at multiple points.

But Morgoth never became impotent, even when thrust outside of the Circles of the World. Tolkien points out that he retained an ability to influence the World to Evil, just by his Shadow and Thought.

MB

[Kuruharan]

I don't agree with the idea that Balrogs were mere subservient elemental manifestations with no will of their own, unable to deviate from the programming devised by Morgoth, or were incapable of independent action. How would the Balrog of Moria have fled in the first place if it had no independent will? I think the impression of "roboticness" on the part of the Balrogs is mostly a result of the comparative abstractness of the Sil, where only a select few personalities are explored in detail, and the fact that the Balrog of Moria never spoke in its confrontation with Gandalf.

All of Morgoth's servants we come into detailed contact with have at least some degree of free will. Why would Balrogs differ in this regard?

Clearly, to a large extent the motivations of the Balrog of Moria were different from the norm of Evil, but it was operating on incomplete information.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

I agree with Zigûr.

How legitimate would the Balrog have viewed Sauron as being the proxy for Morgoth? Especially since the Balrog would know that Sauron was lying about being Morgoth Returned and could not possibly be taken in by this deceit. Also note, Sauron abandoned his service to Morgoth before the end of the First Age, presumably vacating his place as Morgoth's chief lieutenant. The Balrog would undoubtedly be aware of this betrayal. Why would the Balrog respect Sauron as Morgoth's proxy in light of these things?

The other question that has not been touched on in this thread yet is "Could the Balrog have mastered the Ring?"

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The other question that has not been touched on in this thread yet is "Could the Balrog have mastered the Ring?"

If by master, you mean having the ability to withhold the Ring from Sauron in his despite (as described in a Letter by Tolkien as being a measure of one's 'mastery' of the Ring), I would say it's a toss-up. Tolkien envisaged Gandalf as being able to do so. The Balrog seemingly had not exhausted, as had Sauron, much of its will and spirit in the dominion of others. Then the question again turns to what a Balrog with the Ring would do. Try in some one to enable Morgoth's return? Impossible. Force Sauron and the forces of Mordor to serve it, essentially replacing Sauron? If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

The Ring always wins unless it is destroyed.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If by master, you mean having the ability to withhold the Ring from Sauron in his despite (as described in a Letter by Tolkien as being a measure of one's 'mastery' of the Ring), I would say it's a toss-up. Tolkien envisaged Gandalf as being able to do so. The Balrog seemingly had not exhausted, as had Sauron, much of its will and spirit in the dominion of others. Then the question again turns to what a Balrog with the Ring would do. Try in some one to enable Morgoth's return? Impossible. Force Sauron and the forces of Mordor to serve it, essentially replacing Sauron? If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

Again, Morgoth's return isn't impossible, as Tolkien said that was how Arda Marred would eventually come to an end, and Arda Unmarred would come to be:

Morgoth would return from the Void, crossing over the Walls of the Night.

MB

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Again, Morgoth's return isn't impossible, as Tolkien said that was how Arda Marred would eventually come to an end, and Arda Unmarred would come to be:

Morgoth would return from the Void, crossing over the Walls of the Night.

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

Yes... Quite likely.

But.... Does that mean he would not try?

As I already indicated... I don't think the Balrog would have left Moria, even if it possessed the One Ring.

But then that damned Ring of Sauron's seems to be the source of so much contention and strife. And not just in Middle-earth. It seems that even in our world the One Ring is the source of a sizable amount of strife and conflict among wound-be allies.

MB

[Faramir Jones]

From what we have been told, the Balrogs were Maiar, like Sauron, and were also corrupted by Morgoth.

It's possible the Balrog in question might have had a chance against Sauron. While I don't have his Letters to hand, I recall Tolkien saying that the only being who had a chance to defeat Sauron in personal combat while using the One Ring was a Maia, Gandalf. Might that Balrog, also a former Maia, have a similar chance?

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't agree with the idea that Balrogs were mere subservient elemental manifestations with no will of their own, unable to deviate from the programming devised by Morgoth, or were incapable of independent action.

Good, because no one has argued that.


MB