Balrog and The One Ring

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Again, Morgoth's return isn't impossible, as Tolkien said that was how Arda Marred would eventually come to an end, and Arda Unmarred would come to be:

Morgoth would return from the Void, crossing over the Walls of the Night.

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

Yes... Quite likely.

But.... Does that mean he would not try?

As I already indicated... I don't think the Balrog would have left Moria, even if it possessed the One Ring.

But then that damned Ring of Sauron's seems to be the source of so much contention and strife. And not just in Middle-earth. It seems that even in our world the One Ring is the source of a sizable amount of strife and conflict among wound-be allies.

MB

[Faramir Jones]

From what we have been told, the Balrogs were Maiar, like Sauron, and were also corrupted by Morgoth.

It's possible the Balrog in question might have had a chance against Sauron. While I don't have his Letters to hand, I recall Tolkien saying that the only being who had a chance to defeat Sauron in personal combat while using the One Ring was a Maia, Gandalf. Might that Balrog, also a former Maia, have a similar chance?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

It's possible the Balrog in question might have had a chance against Sauron. While I don't have his Letters to hand, I recall Tolkien saying that the only being who had a chance to defeat Sauron in personal combat while using the One Ring was a Maia, Gandalf. Might that Balrog, also a former Maia, have a similar chance?

I think so.

There are a number of parallels between the Gandalf vs. Sauron question and Balrog vs. Sauron. In both contests the Ring would still be a part of Sauron and attempting to get back to him. However, Sauron had spent much of himself and was greatly diminished from his former power whereas Gandalf and the Balrog were not.

The biggest difference being that Gandalf and the Balrog did face off and Gandalf won that one, so perhaps the Balrog was not quite on that level.

[skip spence]

I have the notion that a Balrog would be something like a dark and twisted version of Gandalf. Gandalf is surely a fiery spirit in origin, in possession of the Ring of Fire; and the fire of Gandalf is cleansing, uplifting, inspiring. The Balrog have a fiery heart but are clothed in shadow, their fire is destroying, devouring and they strike fear into the hearts of those who behold them.

But unlike the Istari none of the Balrogs are shown to have any kind of personality. The only named one is Gothmog who appears to have been a great field commander in Morgoth's army in the First Age with, one assumes, a great deal of agency and cunning, but he has no lines as far as I can remember and we are never told explicitly about any strategic decisions of his.

The motives and doings of Durin's Bane are also unclear. Why was he down there idle for so long? Did he command the Orcs that infested the Mines or were they just as surprised as the company when he showed up? Maybe they were aware of something terrible down below but too afraid of Sauron to move out? Could be that the Orcs and the Balrog had no means of communication between them, that they simply didn't share a common language, as banal as that sounds.

In my opinion I think Durin's Bane would immediately have recognized the Ring as a powerful artefact and used it for his own ends. And if Sauron came knocking, would he hand it over? Well for me that's impossible to say. I suppose that the Balrog wouldn't have surrendered it freely. Gandalf was tempted to take the Ring and use it, or so he said. But he was Good. The Balrog was Evil with a capital E, and would have no qualms about giving in to temptation. Besides he wouldn't know what the ring was and who made it. Well the more I think of it I reckon it's an unanswerable question. We don't know enough about the Balrogs to tell.

[Marwhini]

A few points:

1) Yes... Gandalf was a "Spirit of Fire," akin to Arien, the Maia who guided the Sun through the skies.

So... Gandalf and the Balrog fighting was as siblings fighting, one pure and faithful, the other corrupted, and perverted.

2) We do have an indication of the personalities of the Balrogs.

In the Book of Lost Tales Tolkien indicates that the Balrogs were rather keen on Torture. Throughout the first volumes of The History of Middle-earth this theme returns. Morgoth threatens Húrin with being "given to the tortures of the Balrogs" in the Lays of the Children of Húrin.

The Balrogs are also said to be "Spirits of Fire and Destruction."

Collectively these are akin to the Demons we see Danté describe in his work Inferno; that the Demons charged with the torture and torment of the Damned are essentially akin to the Balrogs. They would be sadistic, chaotic, violent, destructive, malevolent, etc...

But we also have another aspect of their personality that is very well defined:

Their Loyalty to Morgoth.

In Morgoth's Ring, where we have Tolkien giving them their ultimate conception, Tolkien describes them as:

"The first and most Faithful" (With a Capital-F) "of Morgoth's Servants."

And that they are his most Faithful servants date back to their very first conception, where they are Demons Morgoth creates himself (when Tolkien still conceived of the Ainur being able to Create in their own right) to be the backbone and Enforcers of his Dominion.

p. 65 of Morgoth's Ring:

Seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his Servants

So the Balrogs, even knowing that Morgoth was losing, and (at least "for that time) all was Lost, the Balrogs remained by his side, and were the last to fight for his cause in the Battle where he lost his Freedom prior to the First Age.

Later.. It was the Balrogs who rush to his aid when he is taken by Ungoliant, and she throws a web about him, and then sets to crushing him.

p. 165 of Morgoth's Ring

. . . the Balrogs become the chief of 'the evil spirits that followed him . . .

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraurik, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

. . . my father emended at this time very hastily to read:

These were the (ëaler) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendor, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in latter days.

And we have many other such quotations to illustrate that the Balrogs were the first of the most powerful of the Maiar to be corrupted/drawn to Melkor, and that they were the most faithful.

They are like unto Holy Warriors for Morgoth (even if there are only Seven of them), or his personal "Knights" (I cannot think of any word other than Arch-Demon or Arch-Fiend).

I imagine they are like the Nazi SS, or Muslim/Fremen Fedaykin (More the former than the latter).

So you would have fiercely loyal, sadistic, violent, dark, fiery, chaotic personalities.

That does give a rather broad domain of Personality, but it is a Foundation from which to work with.


3) What is it that people have with worrying about whether Sauron would be beaten by the Balrog if the Balrog had the One Ring?

Is this some sort of Video Game Concept, where you pit them in a Fighting Video Game, like Street Fighter, Mortal Combat, or Blaze Blu?

Is this like:

Which would win in a fight?

•*The Enterprise, or an Empire Star Destroyer?
• Spock or Legolas?
•*Harry Potter or Gandalf?

Why would the Balrog WANT to fight Sauron (especially given their loyalty and allegiance to Morgoth - see above)?



MB

[Faramir Jones]

In terms of the ability of Gandalf to fight Sauron in person wearing the One Ring, Tolkien had this to say, in Letter 245 of 25th June 1963 to Rhona Beare:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him [Sauron] - being a emissary of the Powers [Valar] and a creature of the same order [Maiar], an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

Tolkien then discussed if Elrond or Galadriel could have wielded the Ring and supplanted Sauron:

they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in posession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. (My emphasis)

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Why would the Balrog WANT to fight Sauron (especially given their loyalty and allegiance to Morgoth - see above)?MB

His allegiance was given to Morgoth, not Sauron; so he might not have automatically given allegiance to the latter. Also, it's possible that he might have fought Sauron on the grounds that he had gone 'soft'. Tolkien made it clear in Morgoth's Ring that Morgoth wanted to destroy every living thing on Arda, including his own creatures such as Orcs, once the Elves and Men were destroyed. Sauron, by comparison, didn't mind things living, as long as they acknowledged his supremacy.