Balrog and The One Ring

[Marwhini]

Those both tend to support my contention that he sought Dominion over Arda, and not its destruction.

The Destruction was a case of "If I can't have it, no one will."

But I am now too tired, and need to sleep for a while so that I can think more clearly beyond this...

MB

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Those both tend to support my contention that he sought Dominion over Arda, and not its destruction.The Destruction was a case of "If I can't have it, no one will."

But it says that's what he would have done *had he won*.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But it says that's what he would have done *had he won*.

Upon reading through the entire section, no, that isn't quite what it says.

It says that it what he would have done if he had to SHARE the Dominion (rule) of Arda with the other Valar.

Tolkien's implication is that had Morgoth been given Dominion over Arda, and sole Authority on its ordering, he would then have gone about creating a world in his image and conception (To HIS THEMES in the Ainulindalë (Music of the Ainur), rather than that of Eru and the other Valar.

I will go back through the section of Morgoth's Ring: 'Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion (p. 394) later to get the relevant points.

You have to recall that Tolkien isn't writing this stuff to spell out answers to explicit questions we have, but to answer questions to himself about a Generalized Metaphysics (or, as it says on p. x of the same volume "the underlying postulates ..." and "... requirements of a coherent Theological and Metaphysical system.")

But the 'Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion' portion that deals with Morgoth details his (out)rage at not being given dominion over Arda. That he considered himself Superior to (and indeed was/is Superior to) all of the other Ainur, and thus felt it his Right to rule Arda, to have Dominion over it, and its substance; to have authority over the ordering of that substance to his liking. The Nihilism is a reaction to the denial of the remaining Valar to give him his way:

"If I can't have it, I'll burn it to the ground, and no one can have it!"

But I will get the specific quotes in a while, as I have something else I can collecting from HoM-e right now.

MB

[Zigûr]

I'm not sure "he had only a share" means share of the rulership, but rather share in the creation of, hence this statement:

Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others

He was not solely responsible for the creation of or nature of Arda; he was only one contributor among many. Thus he came to hate Arda and resent its existence because he believed only his own mind, work and thoughts to be worthy.

That's how it seems to me, at least.

To be fair, I think the passage is saying that Morgoth began with the desire for power over Arda, and that the transformation of that desire into a desire to destroy it came later, as a result of his ever-increasing pride.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I'm not sure "he had only a share" means share of the rulership, but rather share in the creation of, hence this statement:

He was not solely responsible for the creation of or nature of Arda; he was only one contributor among many. Thus he came to hate Arda and resent its existence because he believed only his own mind, work and thoughts to be worthy.

That's how it seems to me, at least.

To be fair, I think the passage is saying that Morgoth began with the desire for power over Arda, and that the transformation of that desire into a desire to destroy it came later, as a result of his ever-increasing pride.

Yes.... Could be.

Could very well be.

There does seem to be a "Descent into Madness" present in Morgoth, as Tolkien uses those exact words in the same essay.

But at the same time we are seeing works in HoM-e that are in progress (Tolkien trying to work out an Ontology of What Is).

And Tolkien's works represent The Authority in this respect, but that he never arrived at that coherent final whole.

The problem then remains of resolving the Metaphysical and Theological contradictions within Tolkien's works without altering the History of the events within them.

And the Nature of Morgoth remains a pretty significant contradiction within his works.

And thus even with this narrative of a descent into Nihilism, one is left with a litany of contradictions needing resolving.

And to resolve them..... That then requires those 'Foundational Postulates' I keep returning to.

Chief Among them is that Morgoth seemingly had the power to force the Valar to destroy the World for him, if this was actually his goal.

But.... My batteries are running out for this evening.... And I need to go consult Sources before delving further into this (for which I still need to find the rest of my HoM-e volumes other than Morgoth's Ring and The Treason of Isengard. I REALLY need to find The Shaping of Middle-earth and The Peoples of Middle-earth, as they contain much of the materials I need not only for this thread, but for the Ëa Project - I get to be Aulë and Yavanna at the present).

MB

[denethorthefirst]

Sauron has no emotional or sentimental attachment or feelings of loyalty towards Melkor ... to assume that would be a total misreading of his Charakter. Sauron was drawn to melkor because of his power and he constructed the Melkor-Religion in Numenor not out of a genuine feeling of loyalty but because he himself, as a defeated Prisoner was not a credible focal Point. There was a Thread about this Topic (saurons loyalty) a while back and the consensus was that melkor is not a Factor in saurons Motivations at all. Tolkien himself wrote that sauron considered melkor to be a failure. Sauron is a cold, cynical egotist and not some romantic idealist. Sauron didnt even participate in the war of wrath, he hid himself away and watched the whole spectacle from the sidelines ... The war lasted over forty years, not once did sauron think "hey I should help my "master" in his existential fight for survival" ... The surviving balrogs probably hate sauron because of this betrayal and would not be willing to work for him or accept his authority. Also: if you believe that the one ring somehow "channels" the morgoth element in arda, than that makes sauron effectively an usurper and enemy of his former master ...
Would the Balrog be tempted by the ring? Definitely, even if he might object to its existence, but I don't think that he would be able to master it. Tolkien wrote that only Gandalf might (!) be expected to master the one ring, but even that's hypothetical (I don't think Gandalf would be able to achieve it).

[denethorthefirst]

So what would happen if the Balrog somehow found the One Ring? A lot of people seem to assume that the Balrog would naturally go on and try to conquer middle-earth and challenge Sauron. But in my opinion it is quite likely that he would end up like a beefed up version of Gollum, hiding deeper and deeper into Moria to be alone with is "precious" becoming completely and utterly enslaved to the ring, slowly losing his mind (if it isn't gone already) ... I mean that's all the Balrog really wanted: to be alone and undisturbed. I don't think that he would be able to master the ring. In the end Sauron, after winning the war by conventional means, would come to Moria in person and take the ring from the Balrog.