Turin and Maeglin?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, one was a tragic hero swept up in a Doom that encompassed his whole family, the other was a coward, stalker and a weak-willed turncoat.

Coward? Hardly. He fought in Nirnaeth. In Nirnaeth. And I'd like to see you fare better when a Dark Lord of immense power is focused on you and tortures both your body and your spirit. Endlessly.

He didn't deserve his fate, and I stand by this sentiment. For I post for love of him, as Huinesoron put it.

Originally Posted by Urwen

In spite of what he's done
I still cherish him, even if I'm the only one

For I feel sorry for him, and this is true
And there's no one else I can turn to.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Coward? Hardly. He fought in Nirnaeth. In Nirnaeth. And I'd like to see you fare better when a Dark Lord of immense power is focused on you and tortures both your body and your spirit. Endlessly.

He didn't deserve his fate, and I stand by this sentiment. For I post for love of him, as Huinesoron put it.

Most of Beleriand fought in the Nirnaeth, brave people and cowards alike; participation in battle isn't proof of bravery. And we have seen people fare better under Morgoth's torture - Hurin being the prime example.

However, I am not here to dissuade you from liking Maeglin. I am merely arguing with the arguments.

[Urwen]

So you see him as nothing more than a turncoat? That's a strangely shallow interpretation and it ignores the depth of his character.

[Urwen]

Back on topic, both of their fathers were imprisoned in Angband and were let go, and they too have been imprisoned.

[Urwen]

Yes, let's go back to topic.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Back on topic, both of their fathers were imprisoned in Angband and were let go, and they too have been imprisoned.

Why do you insist on bashing him and believing everything you read blindly instead of reading between the lines/forming your own opinions on the matter?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yes, let's go back to topic.

Why do you insist on bashing him and believing everything you read blindly instead of reading between the lines/forming your own opinions on the matter?

Sorry, you don't get to choose the topic when you've already opened Pandora's box, if I may mix mythological metaphors. This is just such a case, when you make a comment like:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Coward? Hardly. He fought in Nirnaeth. In Nirnaeth. And I'd like to see you fare better when a Dark Lord of immense power is focused on you and tortures both your body and your spirit. Endlessly.

He didn't deserve his fate, and I stand by this sentiment. For I post for love of him, as Huinesoron put it.

As Galadriel stated, a craven character may find himself in battle, particularly one such as Maeglin, who wished to ingratiate himself with Turgon, and increase his influence in the king's counsels. But his true cowardice and treachery occurred when he was cowed, with the mere threat of punishment, at the hands of Morgoth. He was not physically tortured, as the text makes quite clear -- so there is no indication that a "between the lines" set of inferences is necessary.

Not only did Maeglin surrender the location of Gondolin, he promised to become Morgoth's vassal and was to be given lordship of Gondolin and Idril as well. Let's forget about the fact that Maeglin's betrayal paved the way for the slaughter of thousands of elves, including his uncle and many kin, which is heinous enough, and would earn him universal condemnation; however, from the perspective of Tolkien, a medievalist and philologist, the words he wrote express the true perfidy of Maeglin:

"Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth, and to Maeglin he promised the lordship of Gondolin as his vassal..." -- Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

The effect of transferring one's oath from one's true liege lord (in this case, Turgon), to an enemy (he being Morgoth), and in effect killing one's liege to usurp control of the kingdom would be tantamount to sacrilege in a feudal sense. The fact Maeglin was so cheaply bought without even a hint of true suffering speaks volumes in comparison to those heroes who defied Morgoth: Fingolfin, Luthien, Maedhros, Hurin, etc.

The additional issue of Maeglin being a creepy, incestuous stalker type trying to mate with his first cousin, when that type of relationship was expressly forbidden in Elvish society, makes him an altogether unsympathetic figure.

And Maeglin most assuredly deserved his fate. There is no "reading between the lines" to make him a tragic hero. He was not a hero, and the only outcome that was tragic was the massacre of innocent elves due to his betrayal. Tolkien is quite clear, and we need not make any needless inferences when he says of Maeglin:

"But Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within, when the hour came; and he abode in the halls of the king with smiling face and evil in his heart..." -- Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

The rest is fan-fiction nonsense. Blindly read, indeed.

[Urwen]

The Fall of Gondolin was written by survivors of Gondolin and later by Bilbo. Are you saying that the survivors of Gondolin weren't biased?

That goes especially for the teller of the original, Littleheart, son of Bronweg. Bronweg was close to Tuor, who killed Maeglin. Bronweg was one of biased ones (against Lomion) as a result, and he told the biased version to his son. Like the part where Meglin had Orc's blood in his veins. Bronweg and many other Golodhrim hated him, and so had an aptitude to write such a story where all the blame would fall squarely on his shoulders.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So you see him as nothing more than a turncoat? That's a strangely shallow interpretation and it ignores the depth of his character.

Yours really is the shallow interpretation in that it looks for depth which just isn't there, so you contrive it, instead.

He was obsessively incestuous with Idril. Yes, yes, we all know Pharaoh married his sister as a matter of course, but this tu quoque doesn't excuse Maeglin's (to use a rather execrable neologism) toxicity. And this obsession was his proverbial gateway to other things.

He disobeyed Turgon's order to not venture too far and got himself captured. Morgoth then scared him really, really badly. Oh, and he offered him the throne and Idril if he betrayed Gondolin. And then let him go!

But, according to you, he was too traumatized, or something, instead of just, plain greedy. So, the Middle Earth Manchurian Candidate then returns home, and, instead of telling Turgon about all of this (and, you know, ensuring that his people aren't slaughtered and his city destroyed), he stuck to the deal that he made with (ahem...) Morgoth. Well, perhaps I'm being too harsh. I suppose that sticking to the deal he made with Lucifer, I mean, Morgoth, makes Maeglin a man of his word in some fashion. Kudos to Maeglin, then, for being a stand-up guy!

Once the attack started and dragons were flying around, and however many days or weeks it took to breach the walls of Gondolin (Tolkien isn't specific on these times, but, presumably, they didn't happen instantaneously, like a Star Trek transporter invasion) Maeglin was still so traumatized that he was content to watch his own people get slaughtered as he went after Tuor. Now, that's a victim. Man... I'm in awe of his intersectional victimhood privilege.

So, yes: Maeglin was a victim, as well as a genuine, bona-fide tragic hero. I've now worked through my issues with Maeglin and I'm convinced!

May we now please stop playing this music? I suspect that everyone who's ever going to be convinced of Maeglin's... virtues... is convinced by now.