Turin and Maeglin?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The Fall of Gondolin was written by survivors of Gondolin and later by Bilbo. Are you saying that the survivors of Gondolin weren't biased?

That goes especially for the teller of the original, Littleheart, son of Bronweg. Bronweg was close to Tuor, who killed Maeglin. Bronweg was one of biased ones (against Lomion) as a result, and he told the biased version to his son. Like the part where Meglin had Orc's blood in his veins. Bronweg and many other Golodhrim hated him, and so had an aptitude to write such a story where all the blame would fall squarely on his shoulders.

Look, I realize you're probably the sort who become pen pals with convicted murderers because "they're so misunderstood", but you're now basically calling Tuor and the survivors of Gondolin liars to suit your sordid fantasy. You're also ignoring the intended arc of the story the author wished to present by inferring propaganda created by another fictional character who was later eliminated from the story altogether.

So, I went back to the earlier texts of The Fall of Gondolin (The Book of Lost Tales II), and "Meglin" was even more despicable than in the drafts that made up The Silmarillion. But even though in the earlier drafts Meglin divulges his treachery to the orcs prior to even speaking with Melko (so much for fearing eternal torment), the basic story remains the same: Maeglin wishes to have an unnatural and unlawful relationship with his first cousin, Idril is repulsed, Maeglin travels out of Gondolin proper without Turgon's leave, is captured, and switches allegiance to Morgoth in order to have Gondolin as a vassal (or a great captaincy amongst the Orcs), and to seize Idril. Morgoth allows him to return to Gondolin "with smiling face and evil in his heart." He reveals to Morgoth when best to attack Gondolin (during a festival), Gondolin is destroyed in the only manner it could fall, by treachery, and thousands of elves are slaughtered.

During the battle, he tries to steal away with Idril and Eärendil, but Tuor saves his wife and child (Maeglin having no compunction to rape a married women with a child, evidently), and Maeglin is thrown to his ruin off the walls of Gondolin in a self-fulfilling reiteration of the destruction visited upon his equally twisted father, Eöl. And Tolkien the writer certainly enjoyed his ironic conceptual continuity.

Tolkien never deviates from Maeglin being a traitor and a reprobate. Tolkien is quite clear that Maeglin is a traitorous villain who dies without redemption, because he sought no redemption. Tolkien even has him killed in the same manner as his father, Maeglin being the fruit of the poisonous tree.

But I'm done arguing fan-fiction fallacies. Perhaps you should consider the same tack.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Look, I realize you're probably the sort who become pen pals with convicted murderers because "they're so misunderstood", but you're now basically calling Tuor and the survivors of Gondolin liars to suit your sordid fantasy. You're also ignoring the intended arc of the story the author wished to present by inferring propaganda created by another fictional character who was later eliminated from the story altogether.

So, I went back to the earlier texts of The Fall of Gondolin (The Book of Lost Tales II), and "Meglin" was even more despicable than in the drafts that made up The Silmarillion. But even though in the earlier drafts Meglin divulges his treachery to the orcs prior to even speaking with Melko (so much for fearing eternal torment), the basic story remains the same: Maeglin wishes to have an unnatural and unlawful relationship with his first cousin, Idril is repulsed, Maeglin travels out of Gondolin proper without Turgon's leave, is captured, and switches allegiance to Morgoth in order to have Gondolin as a vassal (or a great captaincy amongst the Orcs), and to seize Idril. Morgoth allows him to return to Gondolin "with smiling face and evil in his heart." He reveals to Morgoth when best to attack Gondolin (during a festival), Gondolin is destroyed in the only manner it could fall, by treachery, and thousands of elves are slaughtered.

During the battle, he tries to steal away with Idril and Eärendil, but Tuor saves his wife and child (Maeglin having no compunction to rape a married women with a child, evidently), and Maeglin is thrown to his ruin off the walls of Gondolin in a self-fulfilling reiteration of the destruction visited upon his equally twisted father, Eöl. And Tolkien the writer certainly enjoyed his ironic conceptual continuity.

Tolkien never deviates from Maeglin being a traitor and a reprobate. Tolkien is quite clear that Maeglin is a traitorous villain who dies without redemption, because he sought no redemption. Tolkien even has him killed in the same manner as his father, Maeglin being the fruit of the poisonous tree.

But I'm done arguing fan-fiction fallacies. Perhaps you should consider the same tack.

You're the one who said no when I wanted to get back on topic......

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You're the one who said no when I wanted to get back on topic......

I am withdrawing myself from the conversation, whichever topic that may be; you, however, can continue with your Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

To paraphrase a certain Hobbit regarding the ongoing subject of Maeglin, "Why, it feels all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread."

[Urwen]

So, any other similarities you can see?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So, any other similarities you can see?

No, no, we're staying on the topic of changing accounts, because I made you a thing.

The Timeline of Maeglin

This table is a summary of M(a)eglin's story as told in the various accounts. It spans everything from the 1917 Fall to the 1970 Of Maeglin that went into the Silm (plus a footnote to The Wanderings of Hurin, which CT is cagey about dating).

What's really interesting is that Maeglin actually gets worse and worse from the Fall to the 1930 Quenta. In 1917 Melko already knew where Gondolin was; by 1930 Meglin was giving up its location as well as its secrets. He went from gaining a captaincy of Melko's army to lordship of the city as Morgoth's vassal. He also deliberately breaks the law in mining outside the mountains, where in 1917 he just strayed. And, oh yeah, the Quenta tells us that Meglin was plotting to usurp the throne of Gondolin even before his captivity.

(In both accounts, he also sends messages to Morgoth telling him to guard the Way of Escape. In the Quenta, the initial flight from Gondolin gets ambushed by a dragon because of him.)

Isfin (Aredhel)'s story stays roughly the same, though where exactly she gets lost varies - sometimes Taur-na-Fuin, sometimes Brethil, sometimes Nan Elmoth. Eol swings from a generic Dark Elf to a deserter from the Nirnaeth, back to our familiar grumpy kinsman of Thingol. The account of him being captured does exist (you were quite right!), but was rejected as too similar to Maeglin's capture.

Up until 1951, Meglin is a straight-up villain. It's only with the original 'Of Meglin' that any tragedy enters his story: that's when his parental murder-suicide story shows up, and it never changes after that. Unfortunately, the last account of the Fall of Gondolin was written 20 years earlier, and never revisited, so we don't have any idea whether Tolkien would have changed Maeglin's actions during the attack to reflect his more sympathetic backstory.

Except one. Buried in HoME XI is a footnote from The Wanderings of Hurin, which formed the lost end to the Grey Annals. I'm not sure whether it's from the '50s or later, but at any rate it postdates 'Of Meglin'. I've summarised it on the table, but CT records the full note like this:

"Later when captured and Maeglin wished to buy his release with treachery, Morgoth must answer laughing, saying: Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not easily blinded! So Maeglin was obliged to offer more - to undermine resistance in Gondolin."

Almost exactly the same note is found on the slip giving in-formation about the new meaning of the name Haladin; but here, after the words "undermine resistance in Gondolin", my father continued: "and to compass the death of Tuor and Earendel
if he could. If he did he would be allowed to retain Idril (said Morgoth)."

Whether this is materially different to the original story is for you to judge, but is an interesting text in that it's the very last time Tolkien ever wrote anything about the Fall of Gondolin.

hS

PS: And in a roundabout link back to your question: the reason for the footnote is that Turin's dad, in his wanderings, had just given away Gondolin's location - so Maeglin couldn't own that betrayal any more...

[Urwen]

Why is everyone so insistent on going off-topic.....?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Why is everyone so insistent on going off-topic.....?

Because I thought you'd like it?

Both were raised in a forest; clearly there is a deeper meaning to this.

hS