Rings of Power talk!

[jallanite]

Of the rings Sauron created, Tolkien writes in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (emphasis mine):

And finally they [the Rings of Power created in part by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and to make things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

So the rings worn by Cirdan and Gandalf, by Elrond, and by Galadrial “did not confer invisibility.” Presumably all of the other Rings of Power did or could confer invisibility.

But in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III DURIN’S FOLK, Tolkien writes of the dwarves:

But they were made of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows or enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

This implies that dwarves could not be rendered invisible merely by the wearing of one of the Seven Rings. (If they had been rendered invisible, one would have suspected that the dwarves would have known of this power and would have suspected when they learned of Bilbo’s ring that it might be one of the lost dwarf rings.) Possibly a dwarf wearing a Ring could become invisible by so willing.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Of the rings Sauron created, Tolkien writes in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (emphasis mine):

And finally they [the Rings of Power created in part by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and to make things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

So the rings worn by Cirdan and Gandalf, by Elrond, and by Galadrial “did not confer invisibility.” Presumably all of the other Rings of Power did or could confer invisibility.

Reply:

But in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III DURIN’S FOLK, Tolkien writes of the dwarves:

But they were made of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows or enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

This implies that dwarves could not be rendered invisible merely by the wearing of one of the Seven Rings. (If they had been rendered invisible, one would have suspected that the dwarves would have known of this power and would have suspected when they learned of Bilbo’s ring that it might be one of the lost dwarf rings.) Possibly a dwarf wearing a Ring could become invisible by so willing.

Reply:

Makes you wonder what uses the Dwarfs even found in the Greater Rings given to them? Or why they were even selected to be given Rings of Power due to it's limited effect on them?

.

PS: I can't help but wonder this... If the Greater Ring's of Power were never designed for mortals why then were they given to them?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Very interesting but why then did the One Ring have power over them?

Because Sauron, the foremost expert in the power of the Great Rings, made it to have power over the other Great Rings.

PS: I can't help but wonder this... If the Greater Ring's of Power were never designed for mortals why then were they given to them?

Because Sauron saw that immortal and invisible Men completely under his control would be useful servants/slaves. The Elves may not have even considered giving rings to humans. But Sauron, as it later turned out, had a different agenda than did his Elvish helpers.

[Nerwen]

Radtech, it looks like you're putting "quote" tags around some of your own comments, so I'm not actually sure whether the following was asked by you, or someone earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by Radtech

Reply:
Quote:
I don't doubt this but I find it very hard to swallow, why would the wraiths allow Sauron to take the rings away from them? Why would the rings have no other usefulness to them other then to make then invisible? These were greater rings of power corrupted and turned evil by Sauron's hand once he captured them, surely they had other important virtues the wraiths could have used?

At any rate, the answer is that the wraiths had no will of their own by this point, and thus no say in the matter.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Radtech, it looks like you're putting "quote" tags around some of your own comments, so I'm not actually sure whether the following was asked by you, or someone earlier in the thread.


At any rate, the answer is that the wraiths had no will of their own by this point, and thus no say in the matter.

Sorry about that was a mistake in the format thanks for catching that. I still think that the wraiths powers were reduced by giving up their rings. I'm not sure why Sauron would take away a great amount of their power like that? I understand some say that he needed their rings to control them but at that point didn't he already have control?

PS: Has it ever been told how fast Sauron with the one ring could control the other rings of power? My reasoning is this at one point when Sauron first created the master ring shouldn't he pretty much have won the war at that moment?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I'm not sure why Sauron would take away a great amount of their power like that? I understand some say that he needed their rings to control them but at that point didn't he already have control?

Sauron did indeed control the Nazgûl totally. I don't see not physically carrying the Nine causing any loss of the Ringwraiths' power, though. Once they entered the wraith-world, the effects on them should be the same as wearing the rings.
Any why would Sauron want them with himself? Safekeeping, maybe. The Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed, and Sauron would not have wanted his rings in unknown hands, especially when he lacked the One.

Originally Posted by Radtech51

PS: Has it ever been told how fast Sauron with the one ring could control the other rings of power? My reasoning is this at one point when Sauron first created the master ring shouldn't he pretty much have won the war at that moment?

With the One, Sauron could know the thoughts of the wearers of the other Rings of Power, but I don't think he "controlled" the rings themselves.
The One was tied to the other Rings, but it could only exact its influence on them if they and the One were in active use at the same time.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron did indeed control the Nazgûl totally. I don't see not physically carrying the Nine causing any loss of the Ringwraiths' power, though. Once they entered the wraith-world, the effects on them should be the same as wearing the rings.
Any why would Sauron want them with himself? Safekeeping, maybe. The Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed, and Sauron would not have wanted his rings in unknown hands, especially when he lacked the One.

I see and this makes sense to me and I do agree with the logic here. However it does raise another question as to where Sauron could have kept or hidden the rings of power he had kept or captured for safe keeping. He was himself in a type of spirit or wraith form when he was defeated by King Elendil and had to flee to Dol Guldur, the Hill of Sorcery, in southern Mirkwood. How could Sauron have taken the rings of power with him when he had to flee? Then Sauron was eventually driven out of Mirkwood by the White council and again went back to Mordor and rebuilt Barad-dûr. However wouldn't by that time his land have long been plundered and searched? Wouldn't they have found any lost of hidden rings of power long ago?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Because Sauron saw that immortal and invisible Men completely under his control would be useful servants/slaves. The Elves may not have even considered giving rings to humans. But Sauron, as it later turned out, had a different agenda than did his Elvish helpers.

Quite so, the Seven and the Nine were given out by Sauron himself after he seized them during the War of the Elves and Sauron, not by the Elves. There is that tradition in Khazad-dûm that the Ring of Durin's line was given to them directly by the Elves rather than by Sauron but it's not completely verifiable:

It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-Smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he aided in the forging of all the Seven. ~Durin's Folk

I wonder - did Sauron intend for the Nine to turn their bearers into Wraiths? It was certainly useful that they did, but was it part of his plan? The Seven hadn't quite worked as planned on the Dwarves (they only made them greedy and wrathful, not susceptible to external control), but maybe that was the exception due to their unusual natures, which Sauron did not fully understand. I suppose the most efficient way to use the Nine would be to have them always controlling the same nine Men who never died, and thus making them into Wraiths would seemingly be the only way to do that, and had certain perks like making them terrifying and sorcerous. I always got the impression that the Seven and the Nine were identical, which is to say sixteen Great Rings with identical powers, and that their division was based solely on race; the Seven only had strange effects because Dwarves were using them.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted... etc ~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

This would mean that Sauron had to an extent wasted seven of them on the Dwarves and might explain why he spent a certain amount of effort in the Third Age trying to recover them. Did he want to re-use them and never got around to it, or were they simply too much of a potential danger as weapons in the hands of his enemies so long as he lacked the One? It is said of the Dwarves using the Seven that:

wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

But perhaps "evil enough" was not quite the kind of top quality evil (as it were) that Sauron really wanted. It seems to me that his master plan with the Rings, to have effectively conquered all of Middle-earth in one stroke, was on the one hand a brilliant gambit which would have payed off extravagantly if properly executed and yet, evidently, contained a great deal of risk which proved to be his downfall.

[Findegil]

In my oppinion, Sauron when he made the One did already expect that the Elves would resist him and take of the Rings as soon as they saw that he could controll them through their rings with the One. Therefore he uttered the vers about dealing out the Rings to the people of Middle-Earth.
It maight have been his plan from the start, to delivere the Rings to Dwarves and Men, but I am not so sure about that. To teach the Elves the spezial lore needed to forge the Rings in a way that he could controll all the Rings with the One, even so he had not helped in the forging of all Rings, is one thing. But to decieve the Elves in a way that they thought they would forge the Rings for themself, but acually would do it for the use of other races by Saurons design seem a bit to komplicated for me. But it is not impossible. Maybe the plan was more subtile and the abilities of the Seven and the Nine were suggested by Sauron to the Elven-smiths, so that it was easy for him to dedicate them later to Dwarves and Men.

Anyhow that the Seven failed to bring the Dwarves under Saurons controll, is clear. And that Sauron gave the Rings to the Dwarves is evidence enough that he tried exactly that. So at least that part of Saurons plan failed. But why?
The offering of three Rings to Dain does cast some doubt on the failer. On the one hand the offer could be a simple lie. But then we have to consider what was offered really: Three Rings for the Dwarves when Sauron would regain the One. Maybe he couldn't controll the Dwarves but he could see what was done with the Rings (Galadriel gave withness of these talking to Frodo). So at least he would have gained a spy glass into the mind of the dwarvish ring-bearers, most likely high ranking Dwarve-Lords.
A second factor might have been that Dúrin III recieved his Ring directly from Celebrimbor and not from Sauron. Celebrimbor gave it to Dúrin for save keeping not for use, he might have provided the Dwarves with ample warning about the influence of Sauron on that Ring in particular and the Rings in general. That means in contrast to the Men that got their Rings the Dwarf-Lords of Khazad-dûm might have had a warning, what they were dealing with. And the other Dwarves that got the Rings from Sauron might have gained the warning through communication with Khazad-dûm. So maybe as did the Elves the Dwarves started using their Rings only after Sauron lost the One. Which would explain why the Rings did not work as Sauron expected.

Respectfuly
Findegil