Rings of Power talk!

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am aware of that, hence my posting them.

You posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” when it should be the main point. Then you followed it with a gratuitous insult. Now you claim you should not have posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” since you were aware that this was the main point. *Sigh*

We can rightly assume that the Rings never left the persons of Galadriel, Gandalf or Elrond, and it is quite probable the same can be said with Sauron in Numenor.

“Assume” and “probable″ indicates you that what you are saying is to some degree dubious. It is at best only “reasonable”. You can “assume” anything you want. You can even “wongly assume″ things.

The question remains as to why Frodo or Bilbo could not hide the One Ring in such a way as Galadriel did with her ring (or perhaps as Sauron did in Numenor). It is likely that they did not possess the same innate power as the Eldar or Maiar, hence they were not fully able to exploit the power of the One Ring, using it for what amounts to merely "parlor tricks".

The word “likely” is another of those words that indicates that what you are saying has not been established. It at least equally “likely” that hiding the Ring was one of the many powers of the One Ring which Bilbo did not use because he was unaware of them. He thought that the Ring was a Ring of invisibility and nothing more. Frodo only wore the Ring three times for short periods of time and in circumstances where he would not have considered experimenting with it to see what else he could do with it and what he could not do.

It is also just as “likely″ that the Elven Rings were rendered invisible by magic outside of their own power.

This is one of the many points unexplained in The Lord of the Rings. Were the dwarf rings also invisible to those looking at their wearers? Unknown.

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:

And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Perhaps this is another case where material written by Tolkien but not published within The Lord of the Rings should be disregarded. Or perhaps not.

But Tolkien also has Gandalf say in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”:

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handling it on to someone else’s care—and that only in an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really gone and done it.

But Cirdan, the keeper of one of the Rings of Power, had also handed on his Ring of Power, to Gandalf himself. The best one can do to avoid seeing here a tremendous hole in The Lord of the Rings is to claim that Gandalf was uncharacteristically speaking loosely here and not thinking of the Elven-rings or perhaps even deliberately lying.

There are other dubious things in The Lord of the Rings which do not quite cohere without lots of assumptions being made. But if more than one assumption is possible, then which one actually happened. The most likely one, when one of the assumptions is obviously more likely? But in real history unlikely things often occur.

If Sauron happened to be wearing a visible Ring, or even more than one visible ring, there is no particular reason by Ar-Pharazôn would have considered anything untoward about that. But yes, Sauron might indeed have been wearing the Ring invisibly, but also might not have. The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:

And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Such topics naturally lend themselves to speculation, so I wanted to throw this out there.
Could the "invisibility" of the Three be connected with the nature of their possessors as Elves, and in Ganadalf's case, as a "divine" creature?

Gandalf explained to Frodo that Glorfindel, having dwelt in the Blessed Realm, existed simultaneously in the "real" world and that of hidden things which the Ringwraiths inhabited. Therefore he was visible to those in either world. The One (and the Nine, and the Seven) put its wearer in the wraith-world. Maybe the Three, not designed to confer invisibility, but still connected to the One, simply displayed an opposite effect when worn by Galadriel and Gandalf. I know this would not apply to Elrond, since he had never set foot in Aman, but we do not know his policy of guarding Vilya. Did he wear it all the time? Keep it in his pocket? Who can say?

It also makes me think of the One vanishing when handled by Bombadil. Was that a momentary glimpse of a similar occurrence?

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Such topics naturally lend themselves to speculation, so I wanted to throw this out there.
Could the "invisibility" of the Three be connected with the nature of their possessors as Elves, and in Ganadalf's case, as a "divine" creature?

Gandalf explained to Frodo that Glorfindel, having dwelt in the Blessed Realm, existed simultaneously in the "real" world and that of hidden things which the Ringwraiths inhabited. Therefore he was visible to those in either world. The One (and the Nine, and the Seven) put its wearer in the wraith-world. Maybe the Three, not designed to confer invisibility, but still connected to the One, simply displayed an opposite effect when worn by Galadriel and Gandalf. I know this would not apply to Elrond, since he had never set foot in Aman, but we do not know his policy of guarding Vilya. Did he wear it all the time? Keep it in his pocket? Who can say?

It also makes me think of the One vanishing when handled by Bombadil. Was that a momentary glimpse of a similar occurrence?

Interesting idea but how does this fit into the end of the Lord of the Rings story when Frodo could plainly see now all three rings of power? I got the impression that Frodo could see them because they were void of power?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by jallanite

You posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” when it should be the main point. Then you followed it with a gratuitous insult. Now you claim you should not have posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” since you were aware that this was the main point. *Sigh*

You are a trip. There was no "gratuitous insult", you took the discussion off the beaten path. What you were saying was "neither here nor there" with what I was discussing previously: the topic being the Rings of Power being unseen by those who themselves were not Ringbearers. In your haste to be contrary (because attempting to prove me wrong seems to be your current avocation), you decided to throw out a quote from unpublished material that was contrary to published material. I had to waste time finding the appropriate quotes in hopes of going back to the original discussion. Alas, the effort was for naught!

Originally Posted by jallanite

“Assume” and “probable″ indicates you that what you are saying is to some degree dubious. It is at best only “reasonable”. You can “assume” anything you want. You can even “wongly assume″ things.

My, how tedious. Perhaps I should quote extemperaneously from unedited material to bolster my suppositions.

Originally Posted by jallanite

“ The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

Using the term "fan fiction" certainly will gain you admirers in a debate. I'll remember that next time you whine about insults.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You are a trip. There was no "gratuitous insult", you took the discussion off the beaten path. What you were saying was "neither here nor there" with what I was discussing previously: the topic being the Rings of Power being unseen by those who themselves were not Ringbearers. In your haste to be contrary (because attempting to prove me wrong seems to be your current avocation), you decided to throw out a quote from unpublished material that was contrary to published material. I had to waste time finding the appropriate quotes in hopes of going back to the original discussion. Alas, the effort was for naught!

Guess so. I see you as trying to prove me wrong. There are lots of interesting discussions that arise from people trying to prove each other wrong. I am quite ready to admit I am wrong as I was in the matter of Saruman knowing of Narya in the published Lord of the Rings.

Possibly you intended no insult. It does not so read to me: “per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.” Your points are sometimes actually wrong, as are mine, but I don’t think that either of use are wrong per usual.

My, how tedious. Perhaps I should quote extemperaneously from unedited material to bolster my suppositions.

Perhaps you should. I try not to believe in any set of suppositions when there are other equally possible explanations. I can entertain various contradictory explanations simultaneously without believing any of them.

Using the term "fan fiction" certainly will gain you admirers in a debate. I'll remember that next time you whine about insults.

I was not aware that “fan fiction” was an insult. Do you then consider that your imaginative account of Sauron with an invisible ring was not fan fiction? Then what was it? I admitted quite readily that your fan fiction was quite possible. My suggestion that the ring was visible and Ar-Pharazôn just didn’t think anything of it was also fan fiction if that matters.

I think it best that I put you on my ignore list as you seem determined that anything I post is wrong, which indeed it sometimes is, but not so often as you seem to believe.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by jallanite

I think it best that I put you on my ignore list...

Good idea. I was going to suggest the same.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

It is also just as “likely″ that the Elven Rings were rendered invisible by magic outside of their own power.

This is one of the many points unexplained in The Lord of the Rings. Were the dwarf rings also invisible to those looking at their wearers? Unknown.

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:

And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Perhaps this is another case where material written by Tolkien but not published within The Lord of the Rings should be disregarded. Or perhaps not.

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But Tolkien also has Gandalf say in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”:

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handling it on to someone else’s care—and that only in an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really gone and done it.

But Cirdan, the keeper of one of the Rings of Power, had also handed on his Ring of Power, to Gandalf himself. The best one can do to avoid seeing here a tremendous hole in The Lord of the Rings is to claim that Gandalf was uncharacteristically speaking loosely here and not thinking of the Elven-rings or perhaps even deliberately lying.

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If Sauron happened to be wearing a visible Ring, or even more than one visible ring, there is no particular reason by Ar-Pharazôn would have considered anything untoward about that. But yes, Sauron might indeed have been wearing the Ring invisibly, but also might not have. The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

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You bring up an excellent point, If the rings of power could be commanded to only only be seen by the wielder or other wielders of rings of power then Ar-Pharazon would not have been able to see Sauron's ring.

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