Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Radtech, it looks like you're putting "quote" tags around some of your own comments, so I'm not actually sure whether the following was asked by you, or someone earlier in the thread.


At any rate, the answer is that the wraiths had no will of their own by this point, and thus no say in the matter.

Sorry about that was a mistake in the format thanks for catching that. I still think that the wraiths powers were reduced by giving up their rings. I'm not sure why Sauron would take away a great amount of their power like that? I understand some say that he needed their rings to control them but at that point didn't he already have control?

PS: Has it ever been told how fast Sauron with the one ring could control the other rings of power? My reasoning is this at one point when Sauron first created the master ring shouldn't he pretty much have won the war at that moment?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I'm not sure why Sauron would take away a great amount of their power like that? I understand some say that he needed their rings to control them but at that point didn't he already have control?

Sauron did indeed control the Nazgûl totally. I don't see not physically carrying the Nine causing any loss of the Ringwraiths' power, though. Once they entered the wraith-world, the effects on them should be the same as wearing the rings.
Any why would Sauron want them with himself? Safekeeping, maybe. The Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed, and Sauron would not have wanted his rings in unknown hands, especially when he lacked the One.

Originally Posted by Radtech51

PS: Has it ever been told how fast Sauron with the one ring could control the other rings of power? My reasoning is this at one point when Sauron first created the master ring shouldn't he pretty much have won the war at that moment?

With the One, Sauron could know the thoughts of the wearers of the other Rings of Power, but I don't think he "controlled" the rings themselves.
The One was tied to the other Rings, but it could only exact its influence on them if they and the One were in active use at the same time.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron did indeed control the Nazgûl totally. I don't see not physically carrying the Nine causing any loss of the Ringwraiths' power, though. Once they entered the wraith-world, the effects on them should be the same as wearing the rings.
Any why would Sauron want them with himself? Safekeeping, maybe. The Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed, and Sauron would not have wanted his rings in unknown hands, especially when he lacked the One.

I see and this makes sense to me and I do agree with the logic here. However it does raise another question as to where Sauron could have kept or hidden the rings of power he had kept or captured for safe keeping. He was himself in a type of spirit or wraith form when he was defeated by King Elendil and had to flee to Dol Guldur, the Hill of Sorcery, in southern Mirkwood. How could Sauron have taken the rings of power with him when he had to flee? Then Sauron was eventually driven out of Mirkwood by the White council and again went back to Mordor and rebuilt Barad-dûr. However wouldn't by that time his land have long been plundered and searched? Wouldn't they have found any lost of hidden rings of power long ago?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

However it does raise another question as to where Sauron could have kept or hidden the rings of power he had kept or captured for safe keeping. He was himself in a type of spirit or wraith form when he was defeated by King Elendil and had to flee to Dol Guldur, the Hill of Sorcery, in southern Mirkwood. How could Sauron have taken the rings of power with him when he had to flee? Then Sauron was eventually driven out of Mirkwood by the White council and again went back to Mordor and rebuilt Barad-dûr. However wouldn't by that time his land have long been plundered and searched? Wouldn't they have found any lost of hidden rings of power long ago?

Good questions, with no certain answers!

Perhaps, with Sauron defeated, the Witch-king, knowing his master would eventually return (since nothing had changed for the WK or his fellow wraiths, regarding their enslavement), took the rings with him into temporary exile in the East.
Then, when Sauron began his re-embodiment in Dol Guldur, the rings were returned by the Nazgûl.

That's my guess, anyway.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Good questions, with no certain answers!

Perhaps, with Sauron defeated, the Witch-king, knowing his master would eventually return (since nothing had changed for the WK or his fellow wraiths, regarding their enslavement), took the rings with him into temporary exile in the East.
Then, when Sauron began his re-embodiment in Dol Guldur, the rings were returned by the Nazgûl.

That's my guess, anyway.

That's what I had though as well, however what about this time when he could have easily of lost his own ring: During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I see your point, after all he was a smooth talker form what were told.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I doubt that Ar-Pharazôn knew anything of the Ring. His predecessors on the throne had been hostile to the Elves who may alone have known of the great Ring, and even they may not have known the extent of its power. But Ar-Pharazôn had little to do with the Elves, the truth of whose traditions of Manwë and Varda Ar-Pharazôn had grown to largely disbelieve.

Ar-Pharazôn would have attributed Sauron’s power to various sources, including Sauron’s origin as a mighty Maia. Had the Elves attempted to warn Ar-Pharazôn of the Ring, he would have disbelieved them, seeing Sauron, so it seemed, humbled before him and his obedient servant.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

It also probably wouldn't have impressed them enough to be worth taking. Remember, in and of itself, the One Ring doesn't look like much, it's a simple gold band, without stone or (visible) inscription (it's unclear if the insription on the ring is visible perpetually when on Sauron's finger, but I tend to think it isn't, you have to put it in a fire to make the inscription seen. And since this is "old" sauron we are talking about who can still take fair forms, her presumably isn't in a form where his hand is continually on fire.) To the eyes of a Numernorian Royal or noble, it would appear a cheap trifle, the kind of thing they'd fob off on a low foot soldier for some minor service that meritied a token reward for appearances sake. Nothing worth taking.