Rings of Power talk!

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What you offer is a mistake in editing in unpublished material causing an immense plot hole which obviously was not in the published story. Considering Saruman was making his own rings, he certainly would have taken Narya from Gandalf when he had him completely under his power - had he known a Ring of Power was there. Particularly so if, as the later, unpublished material states he had "ill-will" due to the ring. Saruman gaining Narya at Orthanc could very well spell the doom of the West.

Saruman may still have had hope that Gandalf would see reason and join with him. In the chapter “The Council of Elrond″, Elrond said:

But they [the three Elvish Rings] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

So I see no problem in reconciling Saruman letting Gandalf keep Narya, for the time, with his knowledge that Gandalf possessed it. I see an equally great problem with Saruman not putting Gandalf to death immediately once Saruman had got hold of Gandalf. What was Saruman preserving Gandalf for? Did Saruman perhaps prevision that if Gandalf died, Manwë would send him back? Was Saruman genuine in his hope that Gandalf would ṗerhaps eventually reveal all that he knew of the Ring to Saruman? If as, then better do no more than imprison Gandalf without worrying about Narya.

It is the two quotations that you have presented that state clearly that the secret of who possessed the Three Rings was only known to their possessors which shows conclusively that the quotation I presented from Unfinished Tales does not fit with other material published in Tolkien’s lifetime.

But this is neither here nor there as, per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.

The quotations you presented are not “neither here nor there” but the proof that you are correct.

Of course I did not accept the point you were trying to make because I had forgotten those clear statements.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by jallanite

It is the two quotations that you have presented that state clearly that the secret of who possessed the Three Rings was only known to their possessors which shows conclusively that the quotation I presented from Unfinished Tales does not fit with other material published in Tolkien’s lifetime.

I am aware of that, hence my posting them.

Originally Posted by jallanite

Of course I did not accept the point you were trying to make because I had forgotten those clear statements.

Yes, of course. But again the larger point I was making, the one germane to the previous discussion, and the one you took off the beaten path, was the concept that a ringbearer can wear a Ring of Power unobtrusively so that it remains hidden, unless the ringbearer chooses to reveal it or another Ringbearer sees it, as was the case with Galadriel and Frodo, and then with Gandalf at the Gray Havens with Narya.

We can rightly assume that the Rings never left the persons of Galadriel, Gandalf or Elrond, and it is quite probable the same can be said with Sauron in Numenor. With the One Ring hidden (perhaps hidden in plain sight on Sauron's finger), then it was much easier to delude Ar-Pharazon and subjugate the Numenoreans.

The question remains as to why Frodo or Bilbo could not hide the One Ring in such a way as Galadriel did with her ring (or perhaps as Sauron did in Numenor). It is likely that they did not possess the same innate power as the Eldar or Maiar, hence they were not fully able to exploit the power of the One Ring, using it for what amounts to merely "parlor tricks".

P.S. Sauron certainly did have the One Ring in Numenor. In Letter #211 Tolkien states, “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” And in Letter #131 Tolkien reiterates that Sauron (now in spirit form) wisked the Ring away from the ruin of Numenor: "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring [from Numenor], upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am aware of that, hence my posting them.

You posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” when it should be the main point. Then you followed it with a gratuitous insult. Now you claim you should not have posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” since you were aware that this was the main point. *Sigh*

We can rightly assume that the Rings never left the persons of Galadriel, Gandalf or Elrond, and it is quite probable the same can be said with Sauron in Numenor.

“Assume” and “probable″ indicates you that what you are saying is to some degree dubious. It is at best only “reasonable”. You can “assume” anything you want. You can even “wongly assume″ things.

The question remains as to why Frodo or Bilbo could not hide the One Ring in such a way as Galadriel did with her ring (or perhaps as Sauron did in Numenor). It is likely that they did not possess the same innate power as the Eldar or Maiar, hence they were not fully able to exploit the power of the One Ring, using it for what amounts to merely "parlor tricks".

The word “likely” is another of those words that indicates that what you are saying has not been established. It at least equally “likely” that hiding the Ring was one of the many powers of the One Ring which Bilbo did not use because he was unaware of them. He thought that the Ring was a Ring of invisibility and nothing more. Frodo only wore the Ring three times for short periods of time and in circumstances where he would not have considered experimenting with it to see what else he could do with it and what he could not do.

It is also just as “likely″ that the Elven Rings were rendered invisible by magic outside of their own power.

This is one of the many points unexplained in The Lord of the Rings. Were the dwarf rings also invisible to those looking at their wearers? Unknown.

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:

And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Perhaps this is another case where material written by Tolkien but not published within The Lord of the Rings should be disregarded. Or perhaps not.

But Tolkien also has Gandalf say in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”:

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handling it on to someone else’s care—and that only in an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really gone and done it.

But Cirdan, the keeper of one of the Rings of Power, had also handed on his Ring of Power, to Gandalf himself. The best one can do to avoid seeing here a tremendous hole in The Lord of the Rings is to claim that Gandalf was uncharacteristically speaking loosely here and not thinking of the Elven-rings or perhaps even deliberately lying.

There are other dubious things in The Lord of the Rings which do not quite cohere without lots of assumptions being made. But if more than one assumption is possible, then which one actually happened. The most likely one, when one of the assumptions is obviously more likely? But in real history unlikely things often occur.

If Sauron happened to be wearing a visible Ring, or even more than one visible ring, there is no particular reason by Ar-Pharazôn would have considered anything untoward about that. But yes, Sauron might indeed have been wearing the Ring invisibly, but also might not have. The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:

And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Such topics naturally lend themselves to speculation, so I wanted to throw this out there.
Could the "invisibility" of the Three be connected with the nature of their possessors as Elves, and in Ganadalf's case, as a "divine" creature?

Gandalf explained to Frodo that Glorfindel, having dwelt in the Blessed Realm, existed simultaneously in the "real" world and that of hidden things which the Ringwraiths inhabited. Therefore he was visible to those in either world. The One (and the Nine, and the Seven) put its wearer in the wraith-world. Maybe the Three, not designed to confer invisibility, but still connected to the One, simply displayed an opposite effect when worn by Galadriel and Gandalf. I know this would not apply to Elrond, since he had never set foot in Aman, but we do not know his policy of guarding Vilya. Did he wear it all the time? Keep it in his pocket? Who can say?

It also makes me think of the One vanishing when handled by Bombadil. Was that a momentary glimpse of a similar occurrence?

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Such topics naturally lend themselves to speculation, so I wanted to throw this out there.
Could the "invisibility" of the Three be connected with the nature of their possessors as Elves, and in Ganadalf's case, as a "divine" creature?

Gandalf explained to Frodo that Glorfindel, having dwelt in the Blessed Realm, existed simultaneously in the "real" world and that of hidden things which the Ringwraiths inhabited. Therefore he was visible to those in either world. The One (and the Nine, and the Seven) put its wearer in the wraith-world. Maybe the Three, not designed to confer invisibility, but still connected to the One, simply displayed an opposite effect when worn by Galadriel and Gandalf. I know this would not apply to Elrond, since he had never set foot in Aman, but we do not know his policy of guarding Vilya. Did he wear it all the time? Keep it in his pocket? Who can say?

It also makes me think of the One vanishing when handled by Bombadil. Was that a momentary glimpse of a similar occurrence?

Interesting idea but how does this fit into the end of the Lord of the Rings story when Frodo could plainly see now all three rings of power? I got the impression that Frodo could see them because they were void of power?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by jallanite

You posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” when it should be the main point. Then you followed it with a gratuitous insult. Now you claim you should not have posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” since you were aware that this was the main point. *Sigh*

You are a trip. There was no "gratuitous insult", you took the discussion off the beaten path. What you were saying was "neither here nor there" with what I was discussing previously: the topic being the Rings of Power being unseen by those who themselves were not Ringbearers. In your haste to be contrary (because attempting to prove me wrong seems to be your current avocation), you decided to throw out a quote from unpublished material that was contrary to published material. I had to waste time finding the appropriate quotes in hopes of going back to the original discussion. Alas, the effort was for naught!

Originally Posted by jallanite

“Assume” and “probable″ indicates you that what you are saying is to some degree dubious. It is at best only “reasonable”. You can “assume” anything you want. You can even “wongly assume″ things.

My, how tedious. Perhaps I should quote extemperaneously from unedited material to bolster my suppositions.

Originally Posted by jallanite

“ The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

Using the term "fan fiction" certainly will gain you admirers in a debate. I'll remember that next time you whine about insults.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You are a trip. There was no "gratuitous insult", you took the discussion off the beaten path. What you were saying was "neither here nor there" with what I was discussing previously: the topic being the Rings of Power being unseen by those who themselves were not Ringbearers. In your haste to be contrary (because attempting to prove me wrong seems to be your current avocation), you decided to throw out a quote from unpublished material that was contrary to published material. I had to waste time finding the appropriate quotes in hopes of going back to the original discussion. Alas, the effort was for naught!

Guess so. I see you as trying to prove me wrong. There are lots of interesting discussions that arise from people trying to prove each other wrong. I am quite ready to admit I am wrong as I was in the matter of Saruman knowing of Narya in the published Lord of the Rings.

Possibly you intended no insult. It does not so read to me: “per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.” Your points are sometimes actually wrong, as are mine, but I don’t think that either of use are wrong per usual.

My, how tedious. Perhaps I should quote extemperaneously from unedited material to bolster my suppositions.

Perhaps you should. I try not to believe in any set of suppositions when there are other equally possible explanations. I can entertain various contradictory explanations simultaneously without believing any of them.

Using the term "fan fiction" certainly will gain you admirers in a debate. I'll remember that next time you whine about insults.

I was not aware that “fan fiction” was an insult. Do you then consider that your imaginative account of Sauron with an invisible ring was not fan fiction? Then what was it? I admitted quite readily that your fan fiction was quite possible. My suggestion that the ring was visible and Ar-Pharazôn just didn’t think anything of it was also fan fiction if that matters.

I think it best that I put you on my ignore list as you seem determined that anything I post is wrong, which indeed it sometimes is, but not so often as you seem to believe.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by jallanite

I think it best that I put you on my ignore list...

Good idea. I was going to suggest the same.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

It is also just as “likely″ that the Elven Rings were rendered invisible by magic outside of their own power.

This is one of the many points unexplained in The Lord of the Rings. Were the dwarf rings also invisible to those looking at their wearers? Unknown.

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:

And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Perhaps this is another case where material written by Tolkien but not published within The Lord of the Rings should be disregarded. Or perhaps not.

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But Tolkien also has Gandalf say in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”:

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handling it on to someone else’s care—and that only in an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really gone and done it.

But Cirdan, the keeper of one of the Rings of Power, had also handed on his Ring of Power, to Gandalf himself. The best one can do to avoid seeing here a tremendous hole in The Lord of the Rings is to claim that Gandalf was uncharacteristically speaking loosely here and not thinking of the Elven-rings or perhaps even deliberately lying.

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If Sauron happened to be wearing a visible Ring, or even more than one visible ring, there is no particular reason by Ar-Pharazôn would have considered anything untoward about that. But yes, Sauron might indeed have been wearing the Ring invisibly, but also might not have. The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

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You bring up an excellent point, If the rings of power could be commanded to only only be seen by the wielder or other wielders of rings of power then Ar-Pharazon would not have been able to see Sauron's ring.

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[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

P.S. Sauron certainly did have the One Ring in Numenor. In Letter #211 Tolkien states, “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” And in Letter #131 Tolkien reiterates that Sauron (now in spirit form) wisked the Ring away from the ruin of Numenor: "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring [from Numenor], upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."

Very interesting, I had thought that only Sauron's physical form was damaged? I did not know that Sauron was in spirit form when he left the ruin in Numenor. If he was able to pick up his master ring in spirit form why did he not do this again when he lost the ring for the 2nd time?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Interesting idea but how does this fit into the end of the Lord of the Rings story when Frodo could plainly see now all three rings of power? I got the impression that Frodo could see them because they were void of power?

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Very interesting, I had thought that only Sauron's physical form was damaged? I did not know that Sauron was in spirit form when he left the ruin in Numenor. If he was able to pick up his master ring in spirit form why did he not do this again when he lost the ring for the 2nd time?

The circumstances were different.
At the destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was indeed destroyed, and his spirit went back over Sea to Middle-earth. The spirit itself was undamaged. There is no knowing how quickly he was then able to reincarnate, but I suspect it was rather rapid.

At the end of the Second Age, when the One was cut from Sauron's finger, his "inner" self was injured by the loss of the Ring; it was taken from him physically, and that greatly weakened him, so that he it was all he could do to escape and seek a place where he could recuperate, gradually building up enough will and power to re-embody.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

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Reply: You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?
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The circumstances were different.
At the destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was indeed destroyed, and his spirit went back over Sea to Middle-earth. The spirit itself was undamaged. There is no knowing how quickly he was then able to reincarnate, but I suspect it was rather rapid.

At the end of the Second Age, when the One was cut from Sauron's finger, his "inner" self was injured by the loss of the Ring; it was taken from him physically, and that greatly weakened him, so that he it was all he could do to escape and seek a place where he could recuperate, gradually building up enough will and power to re-embody.

That makes sense, thanks for your insight on this my friend.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?

But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ).

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ).

Thanks for the information but I was referring to the end of the book when Frodo could see all three rings. I'll assume everyone could have seen them because they were all void of power at that time? Unless the three kept some small amount of power since Sauron never had anything to do with them?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

LOTR Many Partings

If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.

The idea that the Three were not constantly worn by the bearers, either before or after Sauron's fall, would to me explain much.

x/d with Puddleglum

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.
If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.

Possibly. But then, too, weren't the only times when her ring was *ever* mentioned after the Fall when the narrative (or her actions) specifically brought it up: when she holds it up in farewell (partings) and when all three rings pass away to the West (Havens)? Only two times (did I miss any?). I'm not sure I'd put too much meaning on the fact that in the two cases (a small sample-size), only Frodo (the primary source of record for those events - where he was eyewitness) is explicitly highlighted as seeing.

Especially since he doesn't (in these reports) say no one else DID see or understand - only stays silent on the point. And, we can be fairly certain that Gandalf & Elrond (who were present in each case) "could" see Galadriel's ring (being ring wearers themselves) - AND understand that the flash was her holding up the ring. Yet, that is also not mentioned in the record.

Frodo, as the author of this part of the record, and an eye-witness to the events in it, could well have felt no particular need to give a complete list of who else could and could not see the ring, or understand the flash. His mind was on other things.


BTW (and my apologies for not knowing this) but - what does "x/d" signify. I know lol, rotfl, gtr, imo, and so on - but (sadly) not x/d ???

[Radtech51]

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

Frodo was a ring-bearer and also one who had seen the Eye. Galadriel mentioned seeing the Eye, which might be important. Also, Galadriel had just used Nenya to create the illusion of a mighty queen. It was only after that minor bit of theatrical magic that Frodo spotted her ring.

Galadriel asked Sam whether he had seen her ring, and he responded no, he had seen a star shining through her finger. She also mentioned that Elrond had not been permitted to speak of it, meaning, I think, speak of the three rings. This seems to me like an unnecessary leak to Frodo and Sam of where another of the Three was.

At the time, the third ring was in Moria. Galadriel might have been the only one who fully realized what that meant. Thus, she sent the eagle to look for Gandalf.

I also note that when one makes a magic item in Tolkien's world, one is putting a bit of one's own strength into the item. If wizard staves have significant power, Galadriel's making a new staff for Gandalf might have been more of a big deal than many realize.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Saruman may still have had hope that Gandalf would see reason and join with him. In the chapter “The Council of Elrond″, Elrond said:

But they [the three Elvish Rings] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

So I see no problem in reconciling Saruman letting Gandalf keep Narya, for the time, with his knowledge that Gandalf possessed it. I see an equally great problem with Saruman not putting Gandalf to death immediately once Saruman had got hold of Gandalf. What was Saruman preserving Gandalf for? Did Saruman perhaps prevision that if Gandalf died, Manwë would send him back? Was Saruman genuine in his hope that Gandalf would ṗerhaps eventually reveal all that he knew of the Ring to Saruman? If as, then better do no more than imprison Gandalf without worrying about Narya.

I tend to agree with you on this idea, if Saruman did manage to get the ring from Gandolf I am not convinced he could put it too much use if any for war. If might have added him in finding his missing pieces of the puzzle and thereby allowing him create his own master ring.

PS: As for Saruman not killing Gandolf when he had the chance, that may have been his biggest mistake or downfall. I have now doubt Saruman upon reflection wished he had done so.