Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

A burrahobbit looking for the trolls and springing on a squeaking purse?

[Huinesoron]

Nice, but no. When I said you were in the right timeframe, I really meant it. :D You just need to be more specific.

It is Bilbo, though, I'll give you that.

hS

[Urwen]

Bilbo when he found the Ring?

[Huinesoron]

Bilbo when he found the Ring?

Nope, later than that. This moment takes place while Gollum is present.

Take a look at the first line again.

hS

[Urwen]

Bilbo escaping from Gollum?

[Huinesoron]

Bilbo escaping from Gollum?

I don't think he took a break from sneaking after Gollum to hunt for giants... ;)

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is it when he tries to answer 'Give me more time!' but all that comes out is 'Time! Time!' - maybe in a squeak?

Ah ... he's hunting mentally for what could possibly be the thing that 'all things devours' and in his mind hunts for ogres and giants and things.

[Galadriel55]

Is it when he tries to answer 'Give me more time!' but all that comes out is 'Time! Time!' - maybe in a squeak?

Ah ... he's hunting mentally for what could possibly be the thing that 'all things devours' and in his mind hunts for ogres and giants and things.

Nice. :smokin:

[Huinesoron]

Is it when he tries to answer 'Give me more time!' but all that comes out is 'Time! Time!' - maybe in a squeak?

Ah ... he's hunting mentally for what could possibly be the thing that 'all things devours' and in his mind hunts for ogres and giants and things.

Spot on! The precise passage is:

Poor Bilbo sat in the dark thinking of all the horrible names of all the giants and ogres he had ever heard told of in tales, but not one of them had done all these things. He had a feeling that the answer was quite different and that he ought to know it, but he could not think of it. He began to get frightened, and that is bad for thinking. Gollum began to get out of his boat. He flapped into the water and paddled to the bank; Bilbo could see his eyes coming towards him. His tongue seemed to stick in his mouth; he wanted to shout out: “Give me more time! Give me time!” But all that came out with a sudden squeal was:

“Time! Time!”

Bilbo was saved by pure luck. For that of course was the answer.

Give or take a couple of synonyms, you can put the entire riddle together just from that one paragraph.

You may consider this bizarre meta-riddle an April Fool's Day gift to you all. :D Over to you, Pervinca.

hS

[Galadriel55]

You may consider this bizarre meta-riddle an April Fool's Day gift to you all. :D

That's a great meta riddle! Loved it! :D

[Pervinca Took]

Agreed - nice one, hS! :)

Urwen did a lot of the work towards the solving, though. (I thought at first it was the troll's purse too).

I am knackered, but have done my best, (my 'knackered' best, anyway):

Dripping blood, maybe
In inertia, but not silent.
Sentinels, possibly
Of a place both foul and violent.

[Urwen]

The first three lines spell out Dis, so she is my first answer.

[Pervinca Took]

Nothing to do with Dis.

[Urwen]

Vampires?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

Are there vampires in M-e?

[Urwen]

No.

Are there vampires in M-e?


Thuringwethil was one.

[Galadriel55]

The second line suggests A and/or R as letters of the word. I wonder if lines 1 and 3 also have cryptic elements, but so far was unable to think of anything cryptic or literal that works well.

[Pervinca Took]

There aren't really any cryptic elements.

Try finding a foul and violent place first. (The foulness is manifest, but the violence more covert/hidden).

[Urwen]

There are many of those (Thangorodrim, Utumno, Angband, Barad-Dur, Moria, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol, Nan Dungotreb, maybe even Nan Elmoth)

[Huinesoron]

Looking at the whole riddle, I'm wondering about the not-so-Silent Watchers at Cirith Ungol.

Dripping blood, maybe - I wouldn't be surprised if this were part of their description; also given the massacre in the Tower they were metaphorically dripping with blood.

In inertia, but not silent. - They were stationary ('in inertia'), but despite their name, I believe shriek either when Sam enters or Frodo and Sam leave.

Sentinels, possibly - This is a synonym for 'watchers'. At first sight, it's not clear whether the pair of statues are guards or not.

Of a place both foul and violent. - If this doesn't describe an Orc tower on the borders of Mordor, I don't know what does!

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I thought someone might guess the Watchers, and that was excellently argued. Not the answer I am looking for, though.

None of the 'foul places' suggested so far is the right one.

Think of 'foul' in the literal sense of 'disgusting.' (No, not Wormtongue's bookshelf). (Or Gorbag's toilet).

There is an especial reason for the 'dripping blood,' and for its being 'maybe.'

[Urwen]

Here is a fun answer: Grip, Fang and Wolf

[Pervinca Took]

Good idea! :)

My 'possible sentinels' don't have individual names, though.

P.S. I won't tell Farmer Maggot you said Bamfurlong was foul. He might set those very three mutts on you! :p

[Galadriel55]

The bodies in the Dead Marshes?

[Nerwen]

I'll go with something a bit more obscure: the Gorcrows from the "Mewlips" poem.

Dripping blood, maybe -play on "gore".
In inertia, but not silent. -"croaking in their sleep".
Sentinels, possibly -Well, they might be; who knows?
Of a place both foul and violent. -icky swamp, and the Mewlips kill you.

[Urwen]

Well, you did say to treat 'foul' as 'disgusting', and his name is also the name of collectively disgusting creatures.

[Pervinca Took]

I'll go with something a bit more obscure: the Gorcrows from the "Mewlips" poem.

Dripping blood, maybe -play on "gore".
In inertia, but not silent. -"croaking in their sleep".
Sentinels, possibly -Well, they might be; who knows?
Of a place both foul and violent. -icky swamp, and the Mewlips kill you.

PERFECTLY correct!

I think Tolkien probably meant to imply crows that eat gore. (I'm sure I looked up 'gorcrows' once to see if it's an actual species).

They might or might not be sentinels, but I think they look like sentinels in Pauline Baynes's illustration in 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil,' (two of them, one each side of the title).

[Pervinca Took]

Well, you did say to treat 'foul' as 'disgusting', and his name is also the name of collectively disgusting creatures.

True. I did state disgusting place, though, not name/person. (Odd name for a decent chap, I always thought. I think there is probably another meaning/etymology besides the revolting one).

G55, I thought someone would go for the Dead Marshes after I stressed the 'foul as in disgusting' thing. I just didn't want to give it away completely by saying 'poetry' again.

Anyway, over to Nerwen!

[Nerwen]

PERFECTLY correct!

I think Tolkien probably meant to imply crows that eat gore. (I'm sure I looked up 'gorcrows' once to see if it's an actual species).

They might or might not be sentinels, but I think they look like sentinels in Pauline Baynes's illustration in 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil,' (two of them, one each side of the title).
Not an actual species, but according to a number of dictionaries, an obscure dialect word for "carrion crow". Tolkien did like his obscure dialect words.

[Pervinca Took]

The 'gor' could well apply to congealed blood, then. Which wouldn't drip, perhaps. Given that the Mewlips keep the bones, I wonder how much dinner the gorcrows actually get! Maybe some as a fee for keeping watch, to justify my riddle!

[Nerwen]

If I haven't posted a new one by this time tomorrow, someone else can take over. (I just haven't had that much spare time lately, and I am not that great at coming up with riddles anyway.)

[Nerwen]

Okay, here it is!


They call me Red, the scion of Blue,
By name a fish on land,
But I will gladly take from you
The offer of your hand.

[Pervinca Took]

Narya?

[Nerwen]

No. Good reasoning, but not particularly close. The answer is connected with jewellery, mind you, but then, what isn't?

The second line can be read three different ways that are all valid.

[Nerwen]

Hints are available on request...:Merisu:

[Galadriel55]

Ok, a wild guess, but... Carcharoth? Give'm a hand and he bites it off? And he's called the Red Maw.

[Nerwen]

Ok, a wild guess, but... Carcharoth? Give'm a hand and he bites it off? And he's called the Red Maw.

You've got it!

Can you explain the whole thing, or would you like me to?

[Galadriel55]

You've got it!

Can you explain the whole thing, or would you like me to?

I am very confused by the fish on land. Can you explain?

[Nerwen]

I am very confused by the fish on land. Can you explain?
Fish (shark) = Carcharodon (the Great White Shark).

or

reverse the shark's nickname, "wolf of the sea" to get "shark on land" = wolf.

or

Carcharoth's other name, Angfauglir = jaws of thirst.


You had to get the type of fish first. I was going to just put "shark", but I actually thought it would be too obvious! It's really hard to know how other people will see things.

"Blue" is less cryptic, referring to Charcaroth's progenitor Draugluin, which means "blue wolf". (Maybe he had blueish fur?:confused:)

Over to you!

[Galadriel55]

I got the Draugluin connection but totally missed the sharks. Triple hit in a single line.

Well, here goes.




My lord, what seek you here? You should repent.
I told you once, I told you twice, I told you thrice.
Do you not know overindulgence is a vice?
You act 'gainst common sense and my advice.
The world isn't ready for the task that you attempt,
And none will know what came of you after you went.
Stone I am not, to stone I draw,
And stone is stronger than your arms.

[Nerwen]

Is it the mysterious old man at the Door of the Dead, addressing Baldor, son of Brego?

[Nerwen]

Explanation:

My lord, what seek you here? You should repent.
I told you once, I told you twice, I told you thrice. -"The way is shut," said three times.

Do you not know overindulgence is a vice?
You act 'gainst common sense and my advice. -"A rash vow he spoke, as he drained the horn at that feast..."

The world isn't ready for the task that you attempt, -"It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes."

And none will know what came of you after you went. -"Baldor, son of Brego, passed the Door and was never seen among men again."

Stone I am not, to stone I draw, -"...he was withered as an old stone. Indeed for stone they took him..."

And stone is stronger than your arms. "... before him stood a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were clawing at the cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn at the rock in his last despair."

[Galadriel55]

Indeed so! Perfect explanation!

[Nerwen]

Thanks- and don't feel bad that I got it immediately, because I actually didn't- I was thinking along the lines of the "Man in the Moon" ditties at first!

In what I believe is an unprecedented turn of events, I actually have one ready:

The one trapped on a rock;
The beloved sibling lost;
The one who died by fire;
The like-named maiden;
The stern one, hiding grief;
The gold girl waked from sleep;
The monster-slayer
And the faithful warden.

We share these, and a name, but all's not done: I have a son.

[Pervinca Took]

I think lines 3 and 4 might refer to Aerin and Arien?

And maybe line 1 is Maedhros?

Perhaps line 2 is Lalaith/Urwen?

Line 5 could be several people, but Morwen springs to mind.

And the monster-slayer sounds like Turin.

The gold girl could be Nienor/Niniel?

[Galadriel55]

Thanks- and don't feel bad that I got it immediately, because I actually didn't- I was thinking along the lines of the "Man in the Moon" ditties at first!

Speak of overindulgence!

In what I believe is an unprecedented turn of events, I actually have one ready

Inconceivable! :p



I think lines 3 and 4 might refer to Aerin and Arien?

And maybe line 1 is Maedhros?

Perhaps line 2 is Lalaith/Urwen?

Line 5 could be several people, but Morwen springs to mind.

And the monster-slayer sounds like Turin.

The gold girl could be Nienor/Niniel?

I had much the same thoughts. The faithful warden might be Mablung of Doriath. But who is the speaker with the son?

[Nerwen]

Many of the correct line answers have been identified... but there is a trick to it.;)

[Huinesoron]

They're all members of the last generations of the House of Hador:

Hurin was held captive by Morgoth.
Lalaith, per Pervinca.
Aerin, per Pervinca.
Rian is a partial anagram of Aerin, and her husband went away only two months after their wedding, so 'maiden' is fairly apt (if not strictly true).
Morwen, per Pervinca again.
Nienor, ditto (she had golden hair).
Turin, once again per Pervinca.
Huor, who guarded Turgon's retreat.

Which makes the speaker Tuor, last of the house of Hador Lorindel - except that, by prophesied fate, he travelled to Gondolin, wed Idril the princess, and had a son, Earendil.

'All is not done', indeed; for even if the line of Elendil ultimately founders and dies out, Earendil still sails the skies as the Evening and Morning Star.

How'd I do?

hS

[Nerwen]

Very well indeed- but that's not the answer. Or rather, it's a lot of the answer- so far, most of the guesses are correct, but as I said there is a "trick" to this riddle, and the identity of the speaker depends on that.

If everyone gets really stuck, I'll supply hints as to the nature of this trick. In the meantime-

"Like-named" doesn't refer to the (no, not necessarily literal) "maiden" having a name similar to the person in the line above her. What it does refer to... is also part of the "trick".:smokin:

Edit: I think I should also add that your suggestion of Tuor, and the reasoning behind it, is thematically appropriate.

[Pervinca Took]

hS, Nienor also 'woke from sleep' when Turin found her.

[Urwen]

The only other person who was trapped on rock was Maedhros.

[Nerwen]

To help you all out further: six correct answers to the eight lines have been supplied. That's not the whole story, however...

[Pervinca Took]

'All's not done' could refer to Turin's prophesied return to defeat Melkor (who is currently in the Void), making the speaker Hurin or Morwen.

[Nerwen]

Another good answer, but no.

[Urwen]

Hmmmm.....who else has a son from that bunch.....?


Neither of Hurin's children had a song, and Tuor is incorrect. This leaves Huor.

[Huinesoron]

Rian, Morwen, and their kids are all also members of the House of Beor, which could point to something Berenish or Tinuviesque; the issue with that is that there are 3 entries for which no Beorians have been suggested, and Nerwen says that 6 of the names have been correctly guessed.

"Like-named" could indicate being named after someone. Actually my first thought was that all eight people literally 'share... a name', but the only way to pull that off would be to look at the [something]finwes, and we haven't guessed six of them yet. :)

hS

[Nerwen]

Hmmmm.....who else has a son from that bunch.....?


Neither of Hurin's children had a song, and Tuor is incorrect. This leaves Huor.
Ah, but is the speaker "from that bunch"?

[Huinesoron]

I'm now drifting to the Stewards of Minas Tirith, whose names include a lot of the guesses made here: several Hurins - actually there are at least 5 Hurins in the history of Middle-earth - variations on Turin... all right, maybe not 'a lot'.

More seriously, two of the names have to be female - 'maiden' and 'girl'. Finduilas could be the 'like-named maiden', given that she was also given the nickname Faelivrin by her beloved (ie, a name given because of liking...), but that would mean focussing hard on Denethor II and his family, which doesn't include enough of the names to hit the 6/8 requirement.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is the name just Edain, and what they share death?

Beren has a son: Dior.

(Scrap that. Have just seen hS's version).

[Urwen]

Hurin, Huor, Morwen, and Turin all have their third age counterparts, but that's not six people....


Wait a second. I have another idea.



Hurin
Urwen
Aerin
?
Morwen
?
Turin
?
Huor



I assume that those are the correct ones.



Turgon and Finduilas also have third age counterparts......

[Nerwen]

I'm now drifting to the Stewards of Minas Tirith, whose names include a lot of the guesses made here: several Hurins - actually there are at least 5 Hurins in the history of Middle-earth - variations on Turin... all right, maybe not 'a lot'.

More seriously, two of the names have to be female - 'maiden' and 'girl'. Finduilas could be the 'like-named maiden', given that she was also given the nickname Faelivrin by her beloved (ie, a name given because of liking...), but that would mean focussing hard on Denethor II and his family, which doesn't include enough of the names to hit the 6/8 requirement.

hS
You're looking in the right place, through the wrong lens.:cool:

[Urwen]

I thought that those names, if arranged in a certain way, spell 'Thalion'

[Urwen]

Faramir as the speaker?


Hurin, Morwen, Rian, Turin, Turgon, and Finduilas are all in his ancestry, which counts for six people who share the name with first age characters. He lost Boromir, and he has a son.

[Nerwen]

Faramir as the speaker?

Yep! Faramir it is. (The son is named as Elboron in unpublished material, but at any rate we know he had descendants, which is the important thing.)

Boromir and Finduilas are correct, but not the others, or rather not for the reasons you're suggesting.

[Urwen]

I believe I edited that post to include my explanation.

[Nerwen]

Yes, and I edited mine to reflect your edit.

So, it's like this, Urwen: you guessed the actual answer, so you get to set the next one- however, you haven't worked out all the reasoning yet. Do you want me to explain it, or would you like to keep guessing?

[Urwen]

Yes, and I edited mine to reflect your edit.

So, it's like this, Urwen: you guessed the actual answer, so you get to set the next one- however, you haven't worked out all the reasoning yet. Do you want me to explain it, or would you like to keep guessing?


I will keep guessing, however, if it's not explained correctly by this time tomorrow, I'll take the riddle.

[Nerwen]

Okay.

Hint: Boromir, obviously, is Faramir's "beloved sibling lost"... but there is no First Age Boromir at all, so...?

[Urwen]

So how about this


Boromir - beloved sibling lost, his name means 'beloved jewel', if I remember correctly


Finduilas - The like-named maiden


Denethor - The one who died in a fire


Eowyn - The golden girl woken from sleep (and she could also be the monster slayer, in case the guess below doesn't work)



Merry - The Monster slayer


The faithful warden - Bergil


The one trapped on rock - Beregond (gond means rock)


The 'stern one hiding grief' could also refer to Denethor.

[Huinesoron]

Well done, Urwen!

Eowyn's grandmother is named Morwen, and I note that Finduilas of Dol Amroth is the younger sister to Ivriniel, which is a name derived from the same source as Faelivrin; what I'm getting at is that Finduilas and her sister were both named for the same person ('like-named').

... okay. If Boromir and Finduilas are correct, that makes 8 (since neither of them had been previously mentioned); so we have the full list somewhere.

Guesses before the 6/8:

On a rock - Maedhros, Hurin
Beloved sibling - Lalaith
Died by fire - Aerin
Like-named - Arien, Rian (stated to be wrong)
Stern - Morwen
Gold - Nienor Niniel
Monster-slayer - Turin
Warden - Mablung, Huor


I think #4 has to be Finduilas - we know she's a correct answer, and I don't think she fits anywhere else (plus we don't have a valid answer there). And #2 is confirmed as Boromir (who is named after Boromir, 1st Lord of Ladros, great-grandson of Beor, thank you very much ;)).

Hurin the Tall was Warden of the Keys during the War of the Ring; Faramir would have known him in his childhood.

hS

[Nerwen]

So how about this


Boromir - beloved sibling lost, his name means 'beloved jewel', if I remember correctly


Finduilas - The like-named maiden


Denethor - The one who died in a fire


Eowyn - The golden girl woken from sleep (and she could also be the monster slayer, in case the guess below doesn't work)



Merry - The Monster slayer


The faithful warden - Bergil


The one trapped on rock - Beregond (gond means rock)


The 'stern one hiding grief' could also refer to Denethor.
Almost all correct, including the fact that some characters appear twice- and you've identified all of them.

I may as well give you the whole thing, or rather Faramir's half of it:

The one trapped on a rock -Finduilas of Dol Amroth, who "withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock."
The beloved sibling lost -Boromir.
The one who died by fire -Denethor.
The like-named maiden -Finduilas, again.
The stern one, hiding grief -Denethor, again.
The gold girl, waked from sleep -Éowyn.
The monster-slayer -Éowyn, again.
And the faithful warden. -Beregond.

[Nerwen]

Well done, Urwen!

Eowyn's grandmother is named Morwen, and I note that Finduilas of Dol Amroth is the younger sister to Ivriniel, which is a name derived from the same source as Faelivrin; what I'm getting at is that Finduilas and her sister were both named for the same person ('like-named').

... okay. If Boromir and Finduilas are correct, that makes 8 (since neither of them had been previously mentioned); so we have the full list somewhere.

Guesses before the 6/8:

On a rock - Maedhros, Hurin
Beloved sibling - Lalaith
Died by fire - Aerin
Like-named - Arien, Rian (stated to be wrong)
Stern - Morwen
Gold - Nienor Niniel
Monster-slayer - Turin
Warden - Mablung, Huor


I think #4 has to be Finduilas - we know she's a correct answer, and I don't think she fits anywhere else (plus we don't have a valid answer there). And #2 is confirmed as Boromir (who is named after Boromir, 1st Lord of Ladros, great-grandson of Beor, thank you very much ;)).

Hurin the Tall was Warden of the Keys during the War of the Ring; Faramir would have known him in his childhood.

hS
And this list, also, is nearly all correct. In fact, you're only missing one person.

But... how can this be???:confused::eek:

[Nerwen]

My apologies to Boromir of Ladros... but clearly I couldn't have been thinking of him, could I?

[Urwen]

Take a crack at this one


I had love once, I've had joy
I've had everything I needed
And now I realize, that at that moment
I should've done as they had asked

I'm no hero
No songs will sing about me or mine
I am the one who started it all
For better or for worse

I've wanted revenge
I've wanted what should be mine
Yet in the end I got neither
Instead I got to die

It's too late now
And I can't go back
For I've given up everything
So I could have this one thing


I would say 'good luck', but you don't need it, and you'll probably give the answer soon. :p

[Huinesoron]

One last post from me for Nerwen's:

Uh-oh.

So... is Faramir talking to Turin Turambar? They are both of the House of Hurin (they 'share a name'), and Turin has people that fit in all those slots, like Faramir.


On a rock - Hurin
Beloved sibling - Lalaith
Died by fire - Aerin
Like-named - Finduilas
Stern - Morwen
Gold - Nienor Niniel
Monster-slayer - Beleg, who killed a whole bunch of wolves to save Turin.
Warden - Mablung, who after losing Morwen and Nienor devoted his life to finding them.


But though Turin's line died out, as Faramir says, "I have a son..."

hS

[Nerwen]

One last post from me for Nerwen's:

Uh-oh.

So... is Faramir talking to Turin Turambar? They are both of the House of Hurin (they 'share a name'), and Turin has people that fit in all those slots, like Faramir.


On a rock - Hurin
Beloved sibling - Lalaith
Died by fire - Aerin
Like-named - Finduilas
Stern - Morwen
Gold - Nienor Niniel
Monster-slayer - Beleg, who killed a whole bunch of wolves to save Turin.
Warden - Mablung, who after losing Morwen and Nienor devoted his life to finding them.


But though Turin's line died out, as Faramir says, "I have a son..."

hS
Exactly right (except Túrin himself is the "monster-slayer"- remember I said some characters appear twice and Beleg the "faithful warden").

Well done, both of you! (Edit: and Pervinca, who guessed most of the Túrin answers immediately).

[Galadriel55]

Ohh, so "we" is Faramir and Turin Turambar? I was confused about what tied the characters together. They actually do share a lot of character names among related people. That's a very clever observation and riddle!

[Huinesoron]

Moving on to this one:

Take a crack at this one


I had love once, I've had joy
I've had everything I needed
And now I realize, that at that moment
I should've done as they had asked

I'm no hero
No songs will sing about me or mine
I am the one who started it all
For better or for worse

I've wanted revenge
I've wanted what should be mine
Yet in the end I got neither
Instead I got to die

It's too late now
And I can't go back
For I've given up everything
So I could have this one thing


I would say 'good luck', but you don't need it, and you'll probably give the answer soon. :p

'No songs' &c is ringing a faint bell, but I'm not sure it's a Tolkien bell.

A lot of this has a Gollum feel to it, but of course, he did get what he wanted in the end.

hS

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Nerwen]

Ohh, so "we" is Faramir and Turin Turambar? I was confused about what tied the characters together. They actually do share a lot of character names among related people. That's a very clever observation and riddle!
Thanks- it's really more about descriptors than names, actually, though I couldn't pass up Finduilas and the House of Húrin.

Now, as to the new riddle, I confess to not having any clear ideas yet.

These lines-

And now I realise, that at that moment
I should've done as they had asked

I'm no hero
No songs will be sung about me or mine

I am the one who started it all

and

For I've given up everything
So I could have this one thing

feel like they should hold the key to it.

I wonder is the speaker "no hero" because of obscurity, or infamy?

[Urwen]

Thanks- it's really more about descriptors than names, actually, though I couldn't pass up Finduilas and the House of Húrin.

Now, as to the new riddle, I confess to not having any clear ideas yet.

These lines-

And now I realise, that at that moment
I should've done as they had asked

I'm no hero
No songs will be sung about me or mine

I am the one who started it all

and

For I've given up everything
So I could have this one thing

feel like they should hold the key to it.

I wonder is the speaker "no hero" because of obscurity, or infamy?


You're correct. Those lines are the key.



(The speaker could be 'infamous', but I guess it depends on your points of view)

[Nerwen]

And the first two lines refer to a specific point in time ("that moment") when the speaker made a presumably fateful bad decision?

[Galadriel55]

Knowing your love for First Age characters, I wanna guess Maeglin.

[Urwen]

And the first two lines refer to a specific point in time ("that moment") when the speaker made a presumably fateful bad decision?


Yup


Knowing your love for First Age characters, I wanna guess Maeglin.


I already used him as the riddle answer recently. I won't do it again while he is still fresh in people's memories.

[Urwen]

It just occurred to me that this line could be slightly misleading.



So I could have this one thing

[Galadriel55]

Cersei Lannister, as we all would like to see her end up. :p


Actually though, Feanor? Though can't say he's that "unsung" and infamous - his name is still honoured. But he did start preeety much the history of ME as we know it, and especially the First Age shenanigans. If he'd only listened and given the Silmarils over, and not followed Morgoth to Beleriand to get them back...

[Urwen]

Cersei Lannister, as we all would like to see her end up. :p


Actually though, Feanor? Though can't say he's that "unsung" and infamous - his name is still honoured. But he did start preeety much the history of ME as we know it, and especially the First Age shenanigans. If he'd only listened and given the Silmarils over, and not followed Morgoth to Beleriand to get them back...


Well, you're not wrong.....


And there were quite a number of people who hated him, I believe.



(And I did say that 'infamous' part would depend on your points of view.

[Urwen]

And he did do some morally questionable stuff.


Then again, maybe I should've worded it differently....

[Galadriel55]

Sooo... is that a yes or a no? Or a not quite there? :confused:

[Urwen]

Sooo... is that a yes or a no? Or a not quite there? :confused:


Well, that's who I had in mind, so unless I changed my mind/was replaced by an impostor, it's a yes.

[Galadriel55]

Well, that's who I had in mind, so unless I changed my mind/was replaced by an impostor, it's a yes.

Should we be concerned? :p


I maybe shouldn't have answered that quickly cause I didn't have anything good prepared, but this is a quick simple one (which also means you have to match an explanation to each clue!).


I pace. I recommence. I am a rock.
My limbs are long, and they have wings.
An eagle myself,
Eagle lord's son, Elf-child's father.

[Urwen]

My guess is Aragorn


I pace. (Strider)
I recommence. (Envinyatar)
I am a rock. (Elessar)
My limbs are long, and they have wings. (Longshanks, Wingfoot)
An eagle myself, (Thorongil)
Eagle lord's son, Elf-child's father. (Arathorn's son, Eldarion's father)

[Galadriel55]

My guess is Aragorn


I pace. (Strider)
I recommence. (Envinyatar)
I am a rock. (Elessar)
My limbs are long, and they have wings. (Longshanks, Wingfoot)
An eagle myself, (Thorongil)
Eagle lord's son, Elf-child's father. (Arathorn's son, Eldarion's father)

Exactly!

[Urwen]

I thought none of your riddles were about people? :p


Here's hoping that this one lasts for more than a day



I was called White
I knew the White
White had left me
And returned to me

I knew the elf born twice
I knew his friend, who played the flute
I knew the one turned traitor
And the one who killed him too

Then that fateful day came
And no one could do a thing
Some tried to fight on
So others could flee

Everyone I knew was gone
And I was left all alone
Yet there remained a spark
Which could dismantle the dark

[Nerwen]

Interesting. I believe the individuals referenced are (in order) Aredhel, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Maeglin and Tuor, making the "fateful day" the fall of Gondolin- but who is the speaker?

[Urwen]

Interesting. I believe the individuals referenced are (in order) Aredhel, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Maeglin and Tuor, making the "fateful day" the fall of Gondolin- but who is the speaker?


You already gave the answer to your own question. ;)

[Nerwen]

Do you mean it's Gondolin itself?

[Galadriel55]

I thought none of your riddles were about people? :p

And all of yours are? ;) We have to break the pattern every now and again to keep people on their toes, eh?

[Urwen]

Do you mean it's Gondolin itself?


Yup, that's exactly what I meant.


And all of yours are? ;) We have to break the pattern every now and again to keep people on their toes, eh?


:p

[Nerwen]

Now, you two, no quarrelling. The important thing to remember any one of us would have aced the original Riddle Game. Gollum wouldn't get any of these references.

Anyway-

I embrace you;
Come, we must hurry less they chase you,
Come, where the running waters race you.
Though my fragrance may torment you
Everlastingly, I've sent you
On to where your fate awaits you.

[Urwen]

Now, you two, no quarrelling. The important thing to remember any one of us would have aced the original Riddle Game. Gollum wouldn't get any of these references.

Anyway-

I embrace you;
Come, we must hurry less they chase you,
Come, where the running waters race you.
Though my fragrance may torment you
Everlastingly, I've sent you
On to where your fate awaits you.


Arwen?

[Nerwen]

Nope.

[Urwen]

Something to do with Frodo, I think


Athelas?

[Nerwen]

Nope.

[Galadriel55]

Failing to identify good candidates for the running waters line (Boromir? Barrels? Nienor? dunno), I started thinking about fragrances and came up with UGLUK, talking to Merry and Pippin.

(The orcs did hurry the hobbits to Fangorn where they begin to do their work in shaping history, and the hobbits did tend to recall the stink as a prominent feature of the memory)

[Nerwen]

That's a good one- but still nope. Nobody's close yet.

[Nerwen]

Although you are guessing the right Age, anyway.

[Nerwen]

Hint: third line is not just a throwaway.

Edit: Hint 2: G55's guess, though it would be misleading to call it close, does show the right way of thinking- the identity of the "speaker" is rather left-field, and the emphasis of the whole is indeed, "you didn't enjoy it, but I brought you to where you needed, or wanted to be".

I think that's enough hints for now.

[Urwen]

Piggybacking off of G55's guess, the Palantir of Orthanc? It brought Pippin to Gondor, through the set of circumstances.

[Nerwen]

Still no.

All the lines mean something- try looking at it with that in mind.

[Urwen]

The only chasers in middle Earth are the Nine, and the three Hunters, but you already denied the guess connected to latter, so it must be the former. Which furthers my supposition that it must be related to Frodo in some way.


Am I on right track here?

[Nerwen]

The only chasers in middle Earth are the Nine, and the three Hunters, but you already denied the guess connected to latter, so it must be the former. Which furthers my supposition that it must be related to Frodo in some way.


Am I on right track here?
No. Remember, the line is "lest they chase you". The subject is merely in danger of being pursued.

[Urwen]

Maybe Galadriel/Haldir?


They advised the Fellowship to traverse Anduin - the greatest running water in Third Age - in hopes of outrunning Saruman's Orcs.

[Nerwen]

No. Just to make this clear, no-one in the Fellowship is involved.

But- I just realised that G55 had guessed part of it, but not as her "official" question. Sorry- I missed that before. G55, revisit your failures and look more closely!;). (or Urwen can do it, since she's around.)

[Urwen]

Boromir is in the Fellowship, and Nienor is not from the third age. That leaves the barrels.


.....Thranduil?

[Nerwen]

Well, that's the guess I meant... but the speaker isn't Thranduil. You need to think a bit laterally here...

[Galadriel55]

That one barrel that smelled of apples?...

[Nerwen]

That one barrel that smelled of apples?...
Yep!

"I hope I never smell the smell of apples again!" said Fili. "My tub was full of it. To smell apples everlastingly when you can scarcely move and are cold and sick with hunger is maddening. I could eat anything in the whole wide world now, for hours on end- but not an apple!"

And again, my apologies for not noticing before- my eye must have skipped over the "failed" guesses you mentioned.

Well done!

[Galadriel55]

I'm just happy I didn't forget some major event related to rivers. :D Will make a new one tonight.

[Galadriel55]

Another simple one:


You gaze at me
And turn to Him.
You hoped for neither.

I swallow light,
I swallow foes.
I'm not the final doom.

I serve myself.
I come and go.
I do not parley.

[Urwen]

Sounds like someone with an unrequited love.

[Galadriel55]

Sounds like someone with an unrequited love.

No comment :p

(Keep thinking)

[Urwen]

All right. The list of people with unrequited love


Daeron, the original
Maeglin
Gwindor
Finduilas
Brandir
Ungoliant (she yearned for Silmarili)


Any of these?

[Galadriel55]

All right. The list of people with unrequited love


Daeron, the original
Maeglin
Gwindor
Finduilas
Brandir
Ungoliant (she yearned for Silmarili)


Any of these?

None. Sorry if my last post was misleading - I just thought that guess was too general for a comment. I meant keep thinking about other possibilities.

[Nerwen]

Hmmn. This would more-or-less fit, if not Ungoliant, then Shelob... but I suspect it's a Place or Thing rather than a Person, Beast or Monster...

[Huinesoron]

Hmmn. This would more-or-less fit, if not Ungoliant, then Shelob... but I suspect it's a Place or Thing rather than a Person, Beast or Monster...

"You hoped for neither" definitely feels like one of the instruments of suicide - but who/what? I'm wondering at Gurthang, who has the right feel for most of it, except that would make capital-Him someone like Brandir or Mablung; Turin didn't turn away from Gurthang at the end.

hS

[Nerwen]

"You hoped for neither" definitely feels like one of the instruments of suicide - but who/what? I'm wondering at Gurthang, who has the right feel for most of it, except that would make capital-Him someone like Brandir or Mablung; Turin didn't turn away from Gurthang at the end.

hS

No... I thought of Gurthang too, but I don't think it fits.

What "swallows light"?

[Galadriel55]

What "swallows light"?

Something dark :p.

You were on the right track with your speculation of the nature of the speaker.

[Urwen]

If it isn't Gurthang, then it's its brother, Anguirel, that went away after its wielder/owner was thrown off a cliffside.....

[Galadriel55]

If it isn't Gurthang, then it's its brother, Anguirel, that went away after its wielder/owner was thrown off a cliffside.....

Not a sword / weapon.

[Urwen]

Utumno?

[Galadriel55]

Utumno?

Does it serve itself, come and go, or fit any line except perhaps swallowing light?

If you tell me hints are in order I will specify / clarify some things.

[Urwen]

I'd say they're needed, but others might disagree.


Ungoliant fits, but you said no to her.

[Urwen]

Wait. How about Caragdur/Amon Gwareth? It's described as 'dark' and it brought death to two different characters. (Yeah, I am obsessed....)


Alternatively, it could be Cabed-En-Aras/Cabed Naeramarth, the cliff Nienor threw herself from.

[Galadriel55]

Okay... 2 hints to speed it up:

1. It's not a First Age thing.
2. "He" is described as part of the final doom, whereas the main subject of the riddle is not (though by rights could have been named such as much as He was.)

[Urwen]

The thing that keeps coming and going and didn't exist in the first age?


The only thing that fits both of these criteria is the One Ring. It is described as 'having a will of its own' which is to return to Sauron. It is also proven to abandon people.

[Galadriel55]

The only thing that fits both of these criteria is the One Ring. It is described as 'having a will of its own' which is to return to Sauron. It is also proven to abandon people.

Good thought, but no. For the record, it only really comes and goes once, it doesn't do as many repeats as the Ring. Also, don't get fixated on objects.

[Urwen]

Good thought, but no. For the record, it only really comes and goes once, it doesn't do as many repeats as the Ring. Also, don't get fixated on objects.


Well, places don't generally come and go, and you don't do people very often....

[Urwen]

Hmmmm.....maybe Guilduin? It is a river, therefore, it is moving, and I suppose it could swallow the light too....

[Galadriel55]

Well, places don't generally come and go, and you don't do people very often....

Well, I gotta keep you on your toes, right? Never exclude a category because this just might be the exception. :p

But no, It's not a person, and while it's not exactly a place it could be thought of as such.

Not a river.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, I'm now thinking islands, so:

NUMENOR. The Edain (and specifically Ar-Pharazon) considers Numenor, but turns to Melkorism, while longing for the Undying Lands. The island ultimately destroyed the light it was given, while its people overwhelmed all their foes, and its Downfall is not the End of Days. Numenor as a kingdom is its own master, which does not bargain with its enemies - and yeah, it comes, and goes.

Or...

FASTITOCALON, for basically the same reasons. ^_^ "Ah! foolish folk, who land on HIM!"

hS

[Galadriel55]

Not an island - but another good idea.

Think of this. Places and things that define places usually can't come and go. Numenor can be explained that way, but the answer is inland. What else cqme and went, unexpectedly?

[Urwen]

Balrog of Moria certainly came and went unexpectedly.


So did Shelob.


And neither one is technically a person.....


Or Watcher in the Water, who swallowed the light by shutting it out via door drop, and nearly swallowed Frodo.

[Galadriel55]

Balrog of Moria certainly came and went unexpectedly.


So did Shelob.


And neither one is technically a person.....


Or Watcher in the Water, who swallowed the light by shutting it out via door drop, and nearly swallowed Frodo.

I told you it's more of a place than an individual creature by any name. Not a person or person-like thing.

[Galadriel55]

Also, think of when parley could have been happening.

[Urwen]

I am running out of ideas.


Barad-Dur?

[Galadriel55]

Barad-Dur?

No. You want something with a will of its own, not something with Sauron's will.

I am running out of ideas.

Ok. How about: come and go means it comes to a different location, not just appears and disappears on the time scale? What is a feature of a place/setting that unexpectedly changes LOCATION?

[Urwen]

I can't seem to recall any such place in Tolkien Legendarium.....

[Urwen]

Forest of Fangorn?

[Galadriel55]

Forest of Fangorn?

Very very close. :D Be a little more specific.

[Urwen]

Huorns?


The Huorns mostly stood as dark trees in the deepest forests, gnarled and unmoving, yet watchful. When aroused in wrath they moved swiftly as if wrapped in shadows, falling on foes with deadly and merciless strength.


Or in other words, they swallowed foes.

[Urwen]

I cannot reconcile this with other lines, though.....

[Galadriel55]

Huorns?

It's the Huorn forest that came to Rohan's aid, but I'll give it to you.

Consider these passages:

The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed. Great trees, bare and silent, stood, rank on rank, with tangled bough and hoary head; their twisted roots were buried in the long green grass. Darkness was under them. Between the Dike and the eaves of that nameless wood only two open furlongs lay. There now cowered the proud hosts of Saruman, in terror of the king and in terror of the trees. They streamed down from Helm's Gate until all above the Dike was empty of them, but below it they were packed like swarming flies. Vainly they crawled and clambered about the walls of the coomb. seeking to escape. Upon the east too sheer and stony was the valley's side; upon the left, from the west, their final doom approached.
...
The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again.
...
He turned and gazed in wonder, first at the wood and then at Gandalf. 'Once more you come in the hour of need, unlooked-for,' he said.
'Unlooked-for?' said Gandalf. 'I said that I would return and meet you here.'


You gaze at me
And turn to Him. - everyone looks to Gandalf for an explanation
You hoped for neither. - no indeed, both were unlooked for

I swallow light, - being a dark dark forest
I swallow foes. - Orcs
I'm not the final doom. - no, Gandalf and Erkenbrand are described thus but the forest is not.

I serve myself. - indeed, the huorns do what they would. They helped out in the battle but only for their own revenge.
I come and go. - without warning.
I do not parley. - silent things, don't negotiate with Saruman.


Saruman and the Ents are a little Macbethan. "I will not be afraid of death and bane till Fangorn Forest come to Isengard!".

Yeah.

I'm sorry if the riddle and the clues were misleading. I thought the riddle would be pretty simple, as it's based on the text elements. But maybe it was too muddled a way to present the topic.

Over to you now! Well done!

[Urwen]

I give you a simple riddle of my own


You and I have never met
Never talked to each other
We were both an asset and a threat
And near replicas of one another

You and I, prisoners of desire
Towards that which we'd never claim
What we sought, we couldn't acquire
We played and lost a deadly game

And while eons set us apart
We both shared a similar trait
In important events we played our part
And we shared the same fate


(Fair warning, I am being a bit cheeky with this riddle. :p)

[Huinesoron]

I'm sorry if the riddle and the clues were misleading. I thought the riddle would be pretty simple, as it's based on the text elements. But maybe it was too muddled a way to present the topic.

I think the point of a riddle is to be misleading... ;) We all (well, I all, at least) just got hung up on the idea that it had to be something evil. But, "the words were not 'the doom of Minas Tirith'..."!

Urwen - well guessed! (My next thought would have been the Treegarth of Orthanc, still on the idea of Him being Sauron...)

As for yours, my instant thought, what with all the Gondolin talk, is 'The White City', ie, Gondolin and Minas Tirith. But I don't think it quite fits perfectly.

hS

[Urwen]

I think the point of a riddle is to be misleading... ;) We all (well, I all, at least) just got hung up on the idea that it had to be something evil. But, "the words were not 'the doom of Minas Tirith'..."!

Urwen - well guessed! (My next thought would have been the Treegarth of Orthanc, still on the idea of Him being Sauron...)

As for yours, my instant thought, what with all the Gondolin talk, is 'The White City', ie, Gondolin and Minas Tirith. But I don't think it quite fits perfectly.

hS


Nope, mwhahahaha!

[Galadriel55]

Nope, mwhahahaha!

Well, with the same Gondolin talk, Gollum and Maeglin? :p

[Urwen]

Well, with the same Gondolin talk, Gollum and Maeglin? :p


You forgot to name the speaker. :p

[Galadriel55]

You forgot to name the speaker. :p

Well, it's always "you and I", with nothing to differentiate them, so either one could be I and the other one is You. :p

[Urwen]

Fair enough. I couldn't think of anything that differentiates them which rhymes with the rest of the riddle.

I originally had a different vague idea, but thought I'd make a simple and easy one for a change. ;)

And thanks for providing me with the riddle theme.

[Galadriel55]

Fair enough. I couldn't think of anything that differentiates them which rhymes with the rest of the riddle.


You deserved an easy one. ;)



And thanks for providing me with the riddle theme.

Cheers!


I don't have anything ready and I just went, so if someone wants to step in with a riddle they are more than welcome. Anyone?

[Urwen]

Huinesoron?

[Urwen]

All right. I don't like making two riddles in a row, but if no one else steps up soon, I'll have to.


(And yes, I am excited.)

[Urwen]

Right, in the interest of revival, here is another easy one.


You and I weren't the same
But we stood close
Two different deaths are we responsible for
You for the first, me for the second

[Galadriel55]

You and I weren't the same
But we stood close
Two different deaths are we responsible for
You for the first, me for the second

Sounds like landmarks of some sort...

Unless you're again riddling about your favourite topic of father and son being sent off a cliff by father-in-law and son-in-law. :D

[Urwen]

Sounds like landmarks of some sort...

Unless you're again riddling about your favourite topic of father and son being sent off a cliff by father-in-law and son-in-law. :D


Whatcha tolkien 'bout? :cool:

[Urwen]

Well, looks like this thread is officially dead. Rest in peace, Riddles in the Downs thread. Imma miss you. Say hi to Turin, Urwen, Nienor, Aredhel, Tar-Miriel and Maeglin, would you?

[Galadriel55]

Well, looks like this thread is officially dead. Rest in peace, Riddles in the Downs thread. Imma miss you. Say hi to Turin, Urwen, Nienor, Aredhel, Tar-Miriel and Maeglin, would you?

Well, then so is everyone who went to sleep for longer than 3 hours. :p

I don't know. I don't have another answer yet. :)

[Urwen]

Well, then so is everyone who went to sleep for longer than 3 hours. :p

I don't know. I don't have another answer yet. :)


Do you solemnly swear to continue the game should your first answer be declared correct?

[Galadriel55]

Do you solemnly swear to continue the game should your first answer be declared correct?

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good... wait, wrong fandom. But the point stands. Yeah, I will cobble together a riddle if this turns out to be right.


You and I weren't the same - Elf and Man
But we stood close - in-laws, in fact
Two different deaths are we responsible for
You for the first, me for the second - Turgon executed Eol, Tuor killed Maeglin

[Urwen]

My mistake. When I asked that question, I had your previous idea - that of landmarks - in mind.

[Urwen]

Sounds like landmarks of some sort...

Unless you're again riddling about your favourite topic of father and son being sent off a cliff by father-in-law and son-in-law. :D


Read the bolded. That's your hint.

[Galadriel55]

I am now thinking along the lines of the sibling suicide.

The first death = Nienor, in the River Teiglin, beneath Cabed-en-Aras
The second death = Turin, on the shore, on top of Cabed-en-Aras

[Urwen]

I am now thinking along the lines of the sibling suicide.

The first death = Nienor, in the River Teiglin, beneath Cabed-en-Aras
The second death = Turin, on the shore, on top of Cabed-en-Aras


Sorry, but no. Only Nienor threw herself from a cliff there. Your previous train of thought was closer....

[Huinesoron]

It seems like you're hinting at geographic landforms, possibly even cliffs, but which? There are three 'over the edge' deaths in Gondolin - Eol, Maeglin, and Glorfindel - and the first two are over the same cliff. It could be the abyss by Cirith Thoronath talking to Amon Gwareth, if we're ignoring Eol as being too long ago.

Though of course, the riddle says they're not the same... hrm.

Can we assume that the two in question are responsible only for two deaths, ever?

hS

[Urwen]

It seems like you're hinting at geographic landforms, possibly even cliffs, but which? There are three 'over the edge' deaths in Gondolin - Eol, Maeglin, and Glorfindel - and the first two are over the same cliff. It could be the abyss by Cirith Thoronath talking to Amon Gwareth, if we're ignoring Eol as being too long ago.

Though of course, the riddle says they're not the same... hrm.

Can we assume that the two in question are responsible only for two deaths, ever?

hS


You are close, but not quite there yet.



Take a look at this map and then it'd all make sense


http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/7/77/Narfil_Pal%C3%B9rfalas_-_Gondolin_Plan.jpg

[Urwen]

Bump?

[Galadriel55]

Bump?

I'm out of town for a few days and wasn't able to check the Downs or give this a thought. I'll be back in the game when I'm back in town. :)

[Huinesoron]

Okay... how about either Caragdur (where Eol was thrown off) or Amon Gwareth as a whole (for Maeglin's death) as 'you for the first', and the Tower of Turgon as the second, where Turgon died in a similar fall?

hS

[Urwen]

It's Caradgur and Amon Gwareth, actually. Those two cliffs are separate, and the map shows so too, so I don't know why does everyone seem to think it's the same cliff. :<

[Huinesoron]

It's Caradgur and Amon Gwareth, actually. Those two cliffs are separate, and the map shows so too, so I don't know why does everyone seem to think it's the same cliff. :<

Amon Gwareth/Gwared, "Hill of Watching", is the name of the entire mount on which Gondolin stands. It has one named cliff, Caragdûr, "Dark Spike", on the north side, over which Eol was thrown. That's why the map shows the 'hill' colouration dipping in at Caragdûr, to indicate the cliff.

So... do my various efforts at 'cliffs wot people got shoved off' count as a correct guess, taken in the aggregate? :)?

hS

[Urwen]

Amon Gwareth/Gwared, "Hill of Watching", is the name of the entire mount on which Gondolin stands. It has one named cliff, Caragdûr, "Dark Spike", on the north side, over which Eol was thrown. That's why the map shows the 'hill' colouration dipping in at Caragdûr, to indicate the cliff.

So... do my various efforts at 'cliffs wot people got shoved off' count as a correct guess, taken in the aggregate? :)?

hS


Yes, they do.

[Huinesoron]

Well, then:

West of the Sea my line arose;
In the Heart of the Sea we prospered;
East of the Sea we grew strong.

Now East of the Sea I dwell;
In the West of the land I call home;
In the Heart of the hero forever.

hS

[Urwen]

Sounds like Phary (who is the spiritual successor of Meglin)

[Huinesoron]

Sounds like Phary (who is the spiritual successor of Meglin)

It is not, and there is (for the first time in a week or two) no Maeglin connection at all. At no point did Ar-Pharazon dwell east of the Sea, and I'm pretty sure every hero around did their best to forget about him.

(Unless you were thinking of the monument to him at Umbar, but that wasn't in the West of anything... either way, it's not him.)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, Phary did sail West, and is now trapped in the cave in westlands.

[Urwen]

Galadriel?






West of the Sea my line arose; - Born from Houses of Finwe and Olwe
In the Heart of the Sea we prospered; - Her mother's kin were skilled seafarers, under the protection of Uinen
East of the Sea we grew strong. - In Beleriand and later, in Middle Earth

Now East of the Sea I dwell; - Middle Earth
In the West of the land I call home; - She misses Tirion
In the Heart of the hero forever. - Via her grand-daughter

[Huinesoron]

Not Galadriel, and you're not particularly close to what I was going for with most of the lines - but there is a pretty strong Galadriel connection, as it happens.

Note that line 5 could also be written as 'In the western parts of my homeland'; it's not meant to imply anything about longing for anywhere, so sorry for my clumsy language use. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Nimrodel then?


Or Mithrellas, the ancestress of the line of Dol Amroth?

[Huinesoron]

Weren't they Silvan, with no Valinorean heritage? Either way, it's not either of them, and you were right about the first line pointing at Aman.

hS

[Urwen]

So I'll assume she is a female of the line of Finwe, who lives in East now. Am I close?


Or maybe you're being cheeky and the answer is Tar-Telperien.

[Huinesoron]

So I'll assume she is a female of the line of Finwe, who lives in East now. Am I close?

Or maybe you're being cheeky and the answer is Tar-Telperien.

You're not very close at all, I'm afraid. Though there is a Numenorean connection somewhere.

hS

[Urwen]

Then I am drawing a blank.

[Urwen]

Hint please?

[Huinesoron]

West of the Sea my line arose;
In the Heart of the Sea we prospered;
East of the Sea we grew strong.

Now East of the Sea I dwell;
In the West of the land I call home;
In the Heart of the hero forever.

Two hints:

1. This is a single individual living far from their kin.
2. The hero is described as such by Tolkien (and on one occasion as the chief hero of the story).

(Previous hints are that there are connections to both Galadriel and Numenor in the riddle.)

hS

[Urwen]

.....Maglor?

[Huinesoron]

Not him.

All six lines apply directly to the subject of the riddle. Moreover, the first triplet is in chronological order.

hS

[Urwen]

Arwen?

[Nerwen]

I think the answer is the mallorn tree Sam (the "hero") planted in the Shire.

[Huinesoron]

I think the answer is the mallorn tree Sam (the "hero") planted in the Shire.

Correct! Mellyrn began in Valinor, and reached Lorien by way of Numenor and Tol Eressea. The second Party Tree was planted in the Westfarthing by, per Tolkien, the chief hero of the story.

Over to you!

hS

[Nerwen]

Nice riddle!

Grey and gold-
Your wedding day
We greeted you with singing;
A morning, cold,
We speed away,
The broken symbol winging.

[Urwen]

We know this one, yes we do, my Precious......

Grey and gold- To [her] they gave two birds with grey plume, and with gold beaks and legs
Your wedding day - as a gift for her wedding day
We greeted you with singing; - [she] was awakened by birds singing
A morning, cold,
We speed away, - but then she sent them away
The broken symbol winging. - and they flew off to the land from whence they came

Answer: The birds given to Erendis by Elves of Tol Eressea as a wedding gift.

[Urwen]

Did I get it right, Nerwen?

[Nerwen]

Yep! Well done!

[Urwen]

Listen to my tale
One of sorrow and grief
Long was my life
While theirs was brief

On his throne
The Dark One laughed
Laughed at their misfortune
That he himself had caused

Their heritage noble
Their intentions pure
But against the Dark One's will
There is no cure

Now I hold them
I protect them still
One of them has a task
A prophecy to fulfill

The land is gone
Under the sea
Still I stand alone
To hold them till the end of Ea

[Pervinca Took]

Hurin?

[Urwen]

Nope. ;)

[Galadriel55]

Tol Morwen?

[Urwen]

Yea.

[Galadriel55]

Yea.

Nice one! Creative.

[Urwen]

Nice one! Creative.


Thanks. When should we expect yours?

[Galadriel55]

Thanks. When should we expect yours?

I have an idea but won't be able to sit down and write it for another several hours at least. So... give it around 6 hours?

[Urwen]

Kay

Thanks again.

[Galadriel55]

Kay

Thanks again.

Knowing that you're waiting for it I didn't spend time putting it in an aesthetic form. But the clues are bountiful. :p


Born in the East,
I have seen many lands.
Silver-clad,
I announce great beginnings.

Announcer of trouble,
Herald of death.
I did as was foretold
But to bring only pain.



Happy riddling!

[Urwen]

When thinking of 'foretold' stuff, Eowyn comes to mind.

[Galadriel55]

Not Eowyn.

[Urwen]

Nimrodel?

[Galadriel55]

Not Nimrodel. As always, it may help you to explain what your reasoning is, so I can tell you when you're on the right track qmd what lines you've misinterpreted.

[Urwen]

Well, she was clad in silver, she was born East of the Great sea, and she caused Amroth's death.

[Galadriel55]

Well, she was clad in silver, she was born East of the Great sea, and she caused Amroth's death.

But did she herald death or announce trouble? Those lines mean something specific.

See? If you explain your guess you can get feedback and hints. :)

[Urwen]

Maybe the messenger who pronounced the Doom of Mandos, then? He was the herald of deaths of Feanor and his sons, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel, Finrod, Orodreth, Gwindor and Maeglin

[Galadriel55]

Maybe the messenger who pronounced the Doom of Mandos, then? He was the herald of deaths of Feanor and his sons, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel, Finrod, Orodreth, Gwindor and Maeglin

And how would you explain the first paragraph? And what was foretold about him?

All of the lines have an explanation directly from the text. They are not there for poetry.

[Urwen]

You said I'd get hints. These are not hints, as they give no information which isn't obvious from the riddle itself.

[Galadriel55]

You said I'd get hints. These are not hints, as they give no information which isn't obvious from the riddle itself.

You want a more concrete hint? Hmm... Think Third Age.

[Urwen]

Some thoughts.....so this character was born in Third age, in Middle Earth, is the subject of prophecy, heralds death and brings pain

Witch-King of Angmar? He fits all of the above, and looks like he is clad in silver in the Otherworld.

[Galadriel55]

Some thoughts.....so this character was born in Third age, in Middle Earth, is the subject of prophecy, heralds death and brings pain

Witch-King of Angmar? He fits all of the above, and looks like he is clad in silver in the Otherworld.

At what point did you decide this is a character? ;)

No, not the Witch-King.

[Urwen]

At the point you said 'announce great beginnings', meaning they speak. And apart from Gurthang, no object/place can speak.

[Galadriel55]

At the point you said 'announce great beginnings', meaning they speak. And apart from Gurthang, no object/place can speak.

I can think of several non-people who can announce things, including objects, places, and other creatures. If you're curious I can give a couple examples after the riddle is solved. You don't have to literally speak to fulfill this function. :)

[Urwen]

Nenya?

[Galadriel55]

Nenya?

No.

[Urwen]

I'll wait for some more guesses/hints, then.

[Galadriel55]

Reposting on this page:


Born in the East,
I have seen many lands.
Silver-clad,
I announce great beginnings.

Announcer of trouble,
Herald of death.
I did as was foretold
But to bring only pain.



I'll wait for some more guesses/hints, then.

The subject of the riddle is mentioned throughout the text. You're on the right text, but in a wrong spot.

Here's your next hint: try to think of some great beginnings, and remember that the riddle subject is not a one-time mention but persists through a good chunk of the book.

[Urwen]

The Ring of.....Barahir?

[Galadriel55]

The Ring of.....Barahir?

No... it's not present throughout LOTR, and it spans multiple texts... This is a Third Age answer, which is mentioned in various places in LOTR.

If it makes your guesswork easier, it's not a ring.

[Urwen]

Something mentioned in multiple places.....

I'd have to re-read all three books to find it, then......

[Huinesoron]

... it's not the Moon, is it? The first half of the riddle seems to point at Ithil in general, while the latter half could reflect the fallen status of Minas Ithil, with its death's-head-moon sigil.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Something mentioned in multiple places.....


I'd have to re-read all three books to find it, then......

Yes, it is mentioned in all three books, but it's not something you should have to go digging for. It's a fairly prominent thing. And the death is something everyone would know. It's not obscure at all.

[Galadriel55]

... it's not the Moon, is it? The first half of the riddle seems to point at Ithil in general, while the latter half could reflect the fallen status of Minas Ithil, with its death's-head-moon sigil.

hS

Interesting thought, but no. The riddle is all about a single subject.

[Urwen]

Mithril?

[Galadriel55]

Mithril?

Now you're thinkin'. :p

The answer, however, is a specific thing, not a general material. I like your thinking though, you're getting nearer the right track.

[Urwen]

Mithril shirt?

Born in the East, - presumably, it was made by Dwarves East of the Great Sea
I have seen many lands.
Silver-clad, - silver is its color
I announce great beginnings.

Announcer of trouble, - in the hands of the enemy
Herald of death. - Gorbag's
I did as was foretold - protecting its wearer
But to bring only pain. - To the allied forces who were led to believe that its owner was dead.

[Galadriel55]

Mithril shirt?

I wondered if you would ask that. No, it's not. But again it's somewhat similar to the item in question in the sense of how it's used in the story structure - an item that pops up now and again, that plays a part in crucial plot events. However, this item has a very specific story, and if you read just a couple passages you will be able to explain a lot of lines quite literally. There is also a pretty specific explanation for the "foretold" line.

[Urwen]

You said it's not mentioned in LoTR books, but it still existed in the Third Age. That means it must have been mentioned in Silm/UT/The Hobbit

Arkenstone?

[Galadriel55]

You said it's not mentioned in LoTR books, but it still existed in the Third Age. That means it must have been mentioned in Silm/UT/The Hobbit

Arkenstone?

I told you the opposite! After telling you it's in the TA, I said it's in LOTR. Pay attention! :p

[Urwen]

Okay, but the first mention of it could be in any of three books, and in any of the chapters within....

Meaning I'll have to read every single chapter carefully to find it.

[Galadriel55]

Okay, but the first mention of it could be in any of three books, and in any of the chapters within....

Meaning I'll have to read every single chapter carefully to find it.

As I told you before, it's mentioned in all 3 books, and it's major enough that you don't have to dig for it, it's something you would remember. Also, the death and the great beginning are very obvious specific events.

If you want the hints, read them carefully and use them wisely.


Even if you don't have a concrete idea of the object, you can guess at what some of the lines might mean, or what the relevant events are.

You were on the right track with the mithril coat in the sense that it has a similar literary (note: not functional!) role as the object in the story, and actually fits the riddle rather well. But the object is not related to the mithril coat in any way, so think of similar but unrelated stuff.

[Urwen]

Yeah, but as I told you, the first mention could be in any of the chapters, and I don't see how the hints could narrow it down more.

Unless it's a horn of some kind....?

[Urwen]

I found this

[The] Herald of Death
to find [One] Ring, to bring them [all]
[And] in the Darkness bind it
[One] Ring to rule them [all], [One] Ring'

[Galadriel55]

Yeah, but as I told you, the first mention could be in any of the chapters, and I don't see how the hints could narrow it down more.

Unless it's a horn of some kind....?

Go on... ;) What kind? :)

[Galadriel55]

I found this

[The] Herald of Death
to find [One] Ring, to bring them [all]
[And] in the Darkness bind it
[One] Ring to rule them [all], [One] Ring'

The formatting got messed up in this post, but whatever it was supposed to be, it's not the Ring. Go back to your other idea.