Riddles in the Downs

[Mithalwen]

Oh I thought Rath Dinen was the silence and we were looking for the dweller.. so would guess the House of The Stewards in the Hallows..save that there would be more than one in the vault presumably.

[Galadriel55]

No, once again. I would have accepted Rath Dinen if the actual object was the answer. As it happens, it is not. The answer, however, is right beside it.

Mith, House of Stewards is somewhat of a stretch, but you are looking for something that sits beside Rath Dinen. Not really a dweller, but something that is very close to it also.

[Galadriel55]

I am leaving for 2 weeks in roughly 25 hours, so here is a HUGE clue:

It is right beside Rath Dinen. It lets you inside. What lets you inside?

[Mithalwen]

The hallows and the single man is the porter at Fen Hollen

[Ivriniel]

The hallows and the single man is the porter at Fen Hollen

she's gone for two weeks. Do you want to do a riddle, or shall I?

As far as I see this, it was a riddle we pegged with shared contribution. I'd like to write one if you don't.

Kind Regards :)

[Mithalwen]

It would be courteous to get confirmation first. Or at least wait for the 25 hrs. Are up. For myself I am not so confident it is solved.:smokin:

[Ivriniel]

It would be courteous to get confirmation first. Or at least wait for the 25 hrs. Are up. For myself I am not so confident it is solved.:smokin:

okay :)

[Mithalwen]

But in theory I am happy for you to take the turn.

[Ivriniel]

But in theory I am happy for you to take the turn.

:) thanx mith - i'll hava ponder about a riddle n kind regards

[Galadriel55]

The hallows and the single man is the porter at Fen Hollen

Finally! That is correct. Fen Hollen is the answer. :) Here's some more detailed explanation:

Where she dwells with silence - next to Rath Dinen
A single man abides. - the porter
Though she's no great hostess - no parties there for you, duh
She will let you inside.

You are a man of stature,
You are among the best, - one of the Stewarts (or Kings before that)
And here, inside her kingdom,
You will lie down to rest. - die.

Unless you be her servant,
Her soldier or her slave, - the guards or cleaning party
She will not let you exit
To see the world again. - nope, you die there and stay there.


It's Mith's turn now (and no, Ivriniel, a riddle isn't solved until it's declared so by the riddle-maker - but you're right, it was a group effort). If she so chooses, she can pass the turn, though - but that's up to her. :)

[Mithalwen]

Since I have a busy week and to encourage new participants, :) Ivriniel may take the turn. Have a good trip Galadriel.

[Ivriniel]

Mith, I'll post one. Are you going to pop in to check it out?

[Mithalwen]

Of course but don't panic if you don't get an instant reaction. Internet may be a few minutes a lunchtime only this week.

[Corsair_Caruso]

So I'm a very new member, and have just read the rules. I understand that, after 10 days, the quiz-thread is considered "stagnant" and a new turn can be posted. If I'm going out of turn, please accept my humble apologies.

"Of darkness and light was I born long ago,
From secret, to hidden, from both friend and foe,
From low to exalted and back down again
One love saved my life, another brought its end."

[Mithalwen]

Well yes, I had wondered if I should take the turn back since Ivriniel hadn't posted but I am as happy to guess as set so....

[Mithalwen]

Ok a not very confidrnt guess of Turin Turambar, son of blond Hurin and eponymously dark Morwen, saved by Beleg who loved him and dead in part as a consequence for his unwittingly incestuousclove for Nienor.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Ok a not very confidrnt guess of Turin Turambar, son of blond Hurin and eponymously dark Morwen, saved by Beleg who loved him and dead in part as a consequence for his unwittingly incestuousclove for Nienor.

An excellent guess, but not the answer I had in mind.

[Mithalwen]

Well I wasn't sure, I will carry n thinking :D

[Galadriel55]

Welcome aboard, Corsair! And I'm glad to see this thread back up on its rails!

My best guess is Maeglin.

Of darkness and light was I born long ago, - Eol the Dark Elf and Aredhel the White Lady
From secret, to hidden, from both friend and foe, - no clue.
From low to exalted and back down again - nobody to high status in Gondolin to traitor
One love saved my life, another brought its end. - as they say, a man loves only 2 women - his mother and his wife. Aredhel took the dagger for him, but his desire for Celebrindal brought about the Fall of Gondolin and indirectly his own death.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Welcome aboard, Corsair! And I'm glad to see this thread back up on its rails!

My best guess is Maeglin.

Of darkness and light was I born long ago, - Eol the Dark Elf and Aredhel the White Lady
From secret, to hidden, from both friend and foe, - no clue.
From low to exalted and back down again - nobody to high status in Gondolin to traitor
One love saved my life, another brought its end. - as they say, a man loves only 2 women - his mother and his wife. Aredhel took the dagger for him, but his desire for Celebrindal brought about the Fall of Gondolin and indirectly his own death.

Absolutely correct! The second line refers to the his early life secreted away in Eol's household in Nan Elmoth without any of Aredhel's kin knowing her fate or of the existence of Maeglin, fleeing from there to the hidden city of Gondolin.

[Mithalwen]

My thoughts had led me to Maeglin, but too late... well done Galadriel

[Galadriel55]

Thanks! To be back with a riddle, hopefully sooner than last time. Mith, if in the meantime you have a riddle ready, feel free to post, because I do not have much faith in my memory...

[FerniesApple]

I was lost but now I am found
hidden under the stony ground
far away came a sweet sound
silver trumpets and a king crowned
He toiled long over hill and dale
the new moon shining pale
he found me lying White and frail
on that lonely mountain trail
in the morning Towers bright
shimmering in the silver light
homewards came to my delight
and in that ancient lofty space
did I return and show my face
and blossom did grace that blessed place

[Corsair_Caruso]

I was lost but now I am found
hidden under the stony ground
far away came a sweet sound
silver trumpets and a king crowned
He toiled long over hill and dale
the new moon shining pale
he found me lying White and frail
on that lonely mountain trail
in the morning Towers bright
shimmering in the silver light
homewards came to my delight
and in that ancient lofty space
did I return and show my face
and blossom did grace that blessed place

The sapling of the White Tree found by King Elessar on Mindolluin, planted in Minas Tirith to replace the Tree that died in 2872, with the death of the Ruling Steward Belecthor II.

[FerniesApple]

:D yes indeed. Do you want a prize? How about some Mithril underpants that fell off the back of a troll, only lightly soiled.

[Corsair_Caruso]

:D yes indeed. Do you want a prize? How about some Mithril underpants that fell off the back of a troll, only lightly soiled.

lol

More loyal by far than northern kin
The kings we served, but fell to sin.
A tower built and raised up high
Told of our victory 'neath the sky
'Gainst darkest foe, who bent the knee
to lords and warriors 'cross the sea.
That tower fell, now long ago,
the stones and crystal o'erthrow,
high blood was spent, and dear the cost,
our power and majesty were lost.
But still we travel, far and near,
our name doth still inspire fear.
From sceptre to crown to lords unnamed,
to ring we go, still unashamed.
Though humbled many times, we stand
for all the ages, on the strand.

[FerniesApple]

lol

More loyal by far than northern kin
The kings we served, but fell to sin.
A tower built and raised up high
Told of our victory 'neath the sky
'Gainst darkest foe, who bent the knee
to lords and warriors 'cross the sea.
That tower fell, now long ago,
the stones and crystal o'erthrow,
high blood was spent, and dear the cost,
our power and majesty were lost.
But still we travel, far and near,
our name doth still inspire fear.
From sceptre to crown to lords unnamed,
to ring we go, still unashamed.
Though humbled many times, we stand
for all the ages, on the strand.

Nice! I want to say Dunedain but I bet its not. :confused: or maybe those naughty chaps in the Dunharrow? hmmm.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Nice! I want to say Dunedain but I bet its not. :confused: or maybe those naughty chaps in the Dunharrow? hmmm.

Neither one, keep trying! Your first guess is closer than the second.

[FerniesApple]

Neither one, keep trying! Your first guess is closer than the second.


Ringwraiths?

[Corsair_Caruso]

Ringwraiths?

Nope, not Ringwraiths.

[FerniesApple]

Nope, not Ringwraiths.

is it LOTR related?

[Corsair_Caruso]

is it LOTR related?

It is. Your closest answer was the Dunedain. Keep thinking!

[FerniesApple]

aaarg! this is difficult! is it something to do with Minas Morgul?

[Corsair_Caruso]

aaarg! this is difficult! is it something to do with Minas Morgul?

Nope, unrelated.

[FerniesApple]

Nope, unrelated.


sorry I give up then, all out of ideas. :(

[Corsair_Caruso]

sorry I give up then, all out of ideas. :(

I'll wait one or two more days to see if any other regulars pop in. Would you like me to PM you the answer, seeing as you've taken yourself out of the running?

[FerniesApple]

I'll wait one or two more days to see if any other regulars pop in. Would you like me to PM you the answer, seeing as you've taken yourself out of the running?

I will wait a bit, its probably staring me in the face. :D

[Mithalwen]

I'll wait one or two more days to see if any other regulars pop in. Would you like me to PM you the answer, seeing as you've taken yourself out of the running?

Hold your horses..sometimes this thread is a marathon not a sprint. I can't make it all work yet but I am thinking

[Corsair_Caruso]

Hold your horses..sometimes this thread is a marathon not a sprint. I can't make it all work yet but I am thinking

Lol, sorry. I'll wait. Hoping everyone is enjoying the riddle. :D

[Galadriel55]

I have also thought of the Dunedain, but since it's not the answer, perhaps it is a bit broader - Numenorians?

[Corsair_Caruso]

I have also thought of the Dunedain, but since it's not the answer, perhaps it is a bit broader - Numenorians?

Hmm... I'd say that answer is as close as Dúnedain, but still not exactly right. This group/place is very closely related to Numenor and its people, but I'm afraid if I give anything else I'll give it away.

[Mithalwen]

Black Numenoreans?

[Corsair_Caruso]

Black Numenoreans?

Yes. Specifically I was thinking of the Black Numenoreans of Umbar, but you've got it.

More loyal by far than northern kin: Umbar being south of Numenor, and full of King's Men
The kings we served, but fell to sin.: Full of King's Men, and perpetuated evil ways
A tower built and raised up high: the tower built after Earnil I conquered the city to commemorate the victory of Ar-Pharazôn over Sauron
Told of our victory 'neath the sky: see above
'Gainst darkest foe, who bent the knee: see above
to lords and warriors 'cross the sea.: see above
That tower fell, now long ago,: the tower destroyed after its leaders swore loyalty to Sauron
the stones and crystal o'erthrow,: see above
high blood was spent, and dear the cost,: most of the Black Numenoreans were killed in the wars against Gondor, leaving the cit populated mostly by Haradrim
our power and majesty were lost.: Umbardacil utterly decimated the city, leaving it nearly in ruins
But still we travel, far and near,: the Corsairs of Umbar still wreak havoc on the coasts of Gondor
our name doth still inspire fear.: see above
From sceptre to crown to lords unnamed,: their rulers included the Kings of Numenor (Sceptre), the Kings of Gondor (crown), then various lords, including Black Numenoreans and Exiles and Rebels from Gondor
to ring we go, still unashamed.: they then served Sauron
Though humbled many times, we stand: defeated many times, nearly destroyed
for all the ages, on the strand.: strand being another word for beach

[Urwen]

There is a prophecy
That relates to me
Him who shuns the Light
I shall push back into Night

My heart is black
My weapon is dark
Upon his final downfall
Everything will be reset

And when everything is reset
My family will have a happy end as well
This is the goal I had in mind
When I made him fall.

*The last verse was based on my own speculation as well as some notes left by the writer and his son*

[Nerwen]

Lalaith, right?

[Mithalwen]

Her brother the mormegil I think... but f if so the apple hasn't fallen so far...

[Pervinca Took]

I hope Mr Turambar is acquiring a sense of humour during his (unconscious) waiting period.

I like that poetic riddle, Urwen. "Everything will be reset" reminded me of the "millenium bug" hype ... fourteen years ago!

[Tar-Jêx]

I can be sold, bought and acquired
I can live beyond your death
I will never be held, but instead be shaken upon
I am found in all living things, great, or small
I will stay by your side
But I shall never leave a single soul



(My riddle making skills need some serious work.)

[Mithalwen]

Um. We haven't had confirmation of the previous riddle being solved yet.

[Urwen]

Yes, I am confirming it. I will try to solve riddles properly from now on.

[Mithalwen]

But which answer are you confirming?:smokin:

[Urwen]

Yours and Nerwen's.

[Mithalwen]

But which was right mine or Nerwen's !!!

[Urwen]

You. It says 'I'. If it were Lalaith, it would say 'he'

[The Might]

Anyone up for a new riddle? Legate perhaps?

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I forgot about this though I did start a new riddle. I will try to polish it tomorrow if no one beats me to it (Werewolf a bit tense just now)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyone up for a new riddle? Legate perhaps?

If Mith posts a new one, I will be very happy to return to the good ol' riddling habit by starting to guess. It'll be nice, haven't been around here in a long while.

[Galadriel55]

Ooh! I love this thread! Good to see it back up!

(And Hey Miggy! Good to see you again!)

[Mithalwen]

Proper riddle needs more work so if you don't mind having more of a cryptic clue to get the ball rolling:

Cast a filthy look in German's direction to find place of greater safety (in theory at least).

[Galadriel55]

Aglarond? I realize that it doesn't fully fit, but it's as good as any for starters.

[Mithalwen]

No, but I think you are on the right lines with one element of the clue. And it would really, really help if I didn't have a Brainstorm and get languages mixed up.... sorry... more haste, less speed, and seriously rubbish clues... but no doubt after this Ost in Edhil will feature somewhere at a later date... I am going to hide under a rock now and cry...

Cast a filthy look in French direction to find place of greater safety (in theory at least).
__________________

[Galadriel55]

No, but I think you are on the right lines with one element of the clue. And it would really, really help if I didn't have a Brainstorm and get languages mixed up.... sorry... more haste, less speed, and seriously rubbish clues... but no doubt after this Ost in Edhil will feature somewhere at a later date... I am going to hide under a rock now and cry...

Cast a filthy look in French direction to find place of greater safety (in theory at least).
__________________

Hey, don't kick yourself. Happens to all of us. :)

Hmm, only Sud and Est seem fit for use in Tolkien...

Eglarest?

[Mithalwen]

Yep. That is the one. Eglarest was a haven, but since it was attacked not so safe...

[Pervinca Took]

Just worked out Eglarest, but scrolled down and it's already there! I might not have got 'glare' on my own, anyway.

Nice riddle Mith, and well done G55.

[Galadriel55]

Just worked out Eglarest, but scrolled down and it's already there! I might not have got 'glare' on my own, anyway.

Nice riddle Mith, and well done G55.

If you have a riddle in mind, go for it. I'm busy these days, and as usual I didn't think before answering, so I don't have anything prepared and it will take me a few days and some brain-wrecking to come up with something. So if you have an idea, go for it.

[Pervinca Took]

I don't, I'm afraid. I think bits of my last password are still unsolved, though.

[Galadriel55]

Very slapdash, and probably ridiculously easy, but I have a moment so I thought I'd better post something...



A four-legged creature
Of the green field
Serves two-legged creature
Of the grey stone.

They walk together in war;
In peace each runs his own way.
Who's the Two? Who's the Four?
Can you say?

[Pervinca Took]

I think your greater knowledge of The Silmarillion is probably at the heart of why I can't solve this yet. ;)

Huan and Beren might work if the Silmaril had just fallen in some grey mud. ;) It's the grey stone that has me stumped.

[Mithalwen]

Very slapdash, and probably ridiculously easy, but I have a moment so I thought I'd better post something...



A four-legged creature
Of the green field
Serves two-legged creature
Of the grey stone.

They walk together in war;
In peace each runs his own way.
Who's the Two? Who's the Four?
Can you say?

I can't help wonder if it is Rohan (represented by the flag of a white horse (four legs) on a green field) which owes fealty to the king/steward (two legs) of Gondor (Stoningland to the Rohirrim) since the settlement of Calenardhon and Cirion and Eorl's agreement.

In war they fight together and in peace govern independently

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am equally unsure on first sight. Let me just throw in an idea so that somebody could pick up on that, even... I keep thinking of some weird flag of Rohan on which there is a Troll sitting on top of the horse.

EDIT: I see I cross-posted with Mith, who seems to be thinking along the similar lines, but certainly making more sense. That could be it.

[Galadriel55]

No Silmarillion here, only Third Age stuff. Legate and Mith are both pretty close, but not quite dead centre (though the troll on the Rohan flag is so hilarious I have to give it full points for humour :D). Now looking at it, the riddle might be a bit too blurry in that regard, but I'll let you guess a couple more times before I give hints. I think you can get it.

[Pervinca Took]

I did think of Stoningland, but I was trying to find named horses in Gondor and drew a blank. ;) Thought of trolls and dwarves too - and Durin's Stone - but couldn't find any horses to connect with a dwarf (often a worker in stone) except Arod and Gimli, which didn't seem to work. Arod is a horse of Rohan, which fulfils the green fields bit, but Gimli didn't ride Arod alone. Still ....

[Galadriel55]

I did think of Stoningland, but I was trying to find named horses in Gondor and drew a blank. ;) Thought of trolls and dwarves too - and Durin's Stone - but couldn't find any horses to connect with a dwarf (often a worker in stone) except Arod and Gimli, which didn't seem to work. Arod is a horse of Rohan, which fulfils the green fields bit, but Gimli didn't ride Arod alone. Still ....

Very very close. So far, both parts of the answer were both named, but separately. I'll give the answer to the person who groups them together correctly.

For clarification, because the riddle is a bit vague on this - only one of the creatures is a specific individual. The other is not.

[Galadriel55]

Did I kill it? :( You guys practically had the answer, you know.

[Pervinca Took]

Forlong the Fat and his horse, because the latter would only consent to carry him at times of great need, ie war? :D

But seriously, maybe a soldier of Gondor (Stoningland) who normally just manned the citadel, riding a horse (possibly of Rohan) during the war?

Beregond on a steed of no particular name? I had thought for a moment he was not at the Last Battle because he was being held pending trial, but of course he was - he was with Pippin and was overborne by the troll. And after the war he went to serve Faramir in Ithilien.

[Galadriel55]

I did think of Stoningland, but I was trying to find named horses in Gondor and drew a blank. ;) Thought of trolls and dwarves too - and Durin's Stone - but couldn't find any horses to connect with a dwarf (often a worker in stone) except Arod and Gimli, which didn't seem to work. Arod is a horse of Rohan, which fulfils the green fields bit, but Gimli didn't ride Arod alone. Still ....


Forlong the Fat and his horse, because the latter would only consent to carry him at times of great need, ie war? :D

But seriously, maybe a soldier of Gondor (Stoningland) who normally just manned the citadel, riding a horse (possibly of Rohan) during the war?

Beregond on a steed of no particular name? I had thought for a moment he was not at the Last Battle because he was being held pending trial, but of course he was - he was with Pippin and was overborne by the troll. And after the war he went to serve Faramir in Ithilien.

Ok... the Four-legged creature is obviously a horse. You name the Two-legged creature in your first answer (quoted above in my post) but not the second. :)

[Pervinca Took]

Durin on a horse?

[Galadriel55]

Durin on a horse?

Very very close. Wrong dwarf.

[Pervinca Took]

Gimli on a horse. You said it was Third Age, I remember. I just thought that I'd already said Gimli on Arod, so it wouldn't be that.

[Firefoot]

lol, I think I know. ;)

[Pervinca Took]

Unless it's Gimli perched on Bill The Pony as they descend Caradhras. But Bill didn't go to war, and Gimli isn't exactly going to war at that point. ;)

[Firefoot]

Okay, I didn't want to snipe the thread if I'm right, plus I'm not sure I'm clever enough to compose a new riddle, but:

Eomer to Gimli: "My horse Firefoot will bear us both."

[Galadriel55]

Gimli on a horse.

Bravo! :D

The two closest answers prior to this was the Gimli on Arod answer and the Rohan flag answer. I invite you to recall a somewhat different quote (though good find and good try, Firefoot! The quote was a witty answer, albeit not the one I was looking for. Let this not deter you from doing more riddles!):

But he chose a cap of iron and leather that fitted well upon his round head; and a small shield he also took. It bore the running horse, white upon green, that was the emblem of the House of Eorl.
'May it keep you well!' said Théoden. 'It was made for me in Thengel's day, while still I was a boy.'
Gimli bowed. 'I am proud, Lord of the Mark, to bear your device,' he said. 'Indeed sooner would I bear a horse than be borne by one. I love my feet better. But, maybe, I shall come yet where I can stand and fight.'

Here is the full explanation:

A four-legged creature
Of the green field - a horse
Serves two-legged creature
Of the grey stone. - Gimli the Dwarf

They walk together in war; - indeed, as Gimli carries his shield with the Rohan emblem during the main battles
In peace each runs his own way. - it's a hard task, getting a Dwarf to ride a horse
Who's the Two? Who's the Four?
Can you say? - certainly, as Pervinca did. :)


The reason I had an issue with the answers for horses was that it's not a specific horse, like I mentioned somewhere, but just the animal. Maybe I was too nitpicky. But well done, Pervinca! The floor is yours!

[Pervinca Took]

Nice quotation! And nice logic. I don't think I really solved it, because I didn't realise/remember Gimli's shield. 'Gimli and a horse' is the answer really, and I said 'Gimli on a horse.'

So Gimli would rather bear a horse than be borne by one? I can imagine an Erebor version of the Highland Games: horse-carrying in the place of caber-tossing! Only the toughest, strongest dwarves would be allowed to enter!

Would someone else like to take the floor? I don't really have time to compose a riddle and check the thread for the next couple of days.

[Ivriniel]

Nice quotation! And nice logic. I don't think I really solved it, because I didn't realise/remember Gimli's shield. 'Gimli and a horse' is the answer really, and I said 'Gimli on a horse.'

So Gimli would rather bear a horse than be borne by one? I can imagine an Erebor version of the Highland Games: horse-carrying in the place of caber-tossing! Only the toughest, strongest dwarves would be allowed to enter!

Would someone else like to take the floor? I don't really have time to compose a riddle and check the thread for the next couple of days.

Hi Pervinca :) Yes, okay, I'm happy to :)

[Ivriniel]

Tall One, Handsome One, comely so we see
yet Children, some would say, both can and cannot be begot of He
Lofty Lord to Those, yet not so to These, why say three times three?
1200 times the Summer of the Sun - some would say disease
Arousal then, the Might of Men, Surrender to Elven Vanity
Yet it seems such fun, and such splendour for the Elven Tree,
because, odd is the even of 300 and why does this mean 1500 for every--one!
Disease again, yet, nay still not seen by anyone
and still not even for ninety summer suns beyond the 1500 for everyone
But look again--tall ships and tall kings--and again--three times three--
What Orc would put that upon a pike? Nay, this cannot be!
Is it not a head, for of the body it was, of Elven Vanity
Who of course, is that supposed to mean?
Can someone explain this to me?
So why say 'it's the gate into the day, not dawned, beyond the night'?
And then, what brought they from the foundered land?
Over the flowing sea?
Nay--not yet seven stars and seven stones
and Nay -- not yet one white tree

[Ivriniel]

ps - I dunno if I over or under-pitched it. Is it too obscure, or too easy? Seemed easy and obvious when I wrote it, but I re-read it five hours later and I'm like 'erm...maybe it's too hard'.

I'll give clues if it's too hard :) It was fun to write tho :)

[Pitchwife]

I'd say it's pretty cryptic, but we love challenges here, don't we? Can't yet make head or tail of it, but the numbers obviously refer to annals in a Tale of Years (which I can't check ATM, posting from work), and the thing about an Orc putting something on a pike reminds me of Sauron's army bearing Celebrimbor's body on a pike as their banner. Need to ruminate further.

[Ivriniel]

I'd say it's pretty cryptic, but we love challenges here, don't we? Can't yet make head or tail of it, but the numbers obviously refer to annals in a Tale of Years (which I can't check ATM, posting from work), and the thing about an Orc putting something on a pike reminds me of Sauron's army bearing Celebrimbor's body on a pike as their banner. Need to ruminate further.

Hey there

Pitchwife was a great character and linden avery's repair of him one of most memorable feats

Yes - annals of time it certainly is which should make the riddle pretty easy. The questions in riddle are things I reckoned to ask about

And - u bet - the celebrimbor head on pike is right on for that bit :)

Cheers to u

[Pervinca Took]

I wonder if the 'He' of line two might be Aule - he both could and couldn't beget the dwarves, so to speak.

[Pitchwife]

Pitchwife was a great character and linden avery's repair of him one of most memorable feats
Oh gods, after all these years finally someone who gets it! Well met, I say! :)

[Ivriniel]

I wonder if the 'He' of line two might be Aule - he both could and couldn't beget the dwarves, so to speak.

That's a really appropriate response, tho not quite right. Aule, a Vala had a 'portfolio' in crafting and making in a particular sphere or area.

So, tho the identity you've named is not quite right, the area of Aule's 'making' in Arda is one and the same with the He of the riddle. And for very much similar reasons as you've given.

Cheers Pervinca :)

[Ivriniel]

Oh gods, after all these years finally someone who gets it! Well met, I say! :)

Truly :) I got to thinking about The First and Pitchwife and their most beautiful union after seeing your Avatar. I remember Pitchwife also during the repair of the main mast of the Dromond, which was another of the moments that have stayed with me over the decades. :)

[Ivriniel]

I'll just move this to the new page and do a quick sum up of what's been figured out. :)

Tall One, Handsome One, comely so we see
yet Children, some would say, both can and cannot be begot of He
Lofty Lord to Those, yet not so to These, why say three times three?
1200 times the Summer of the Sun - some would say disease
Arousal then, the Might of Men, Surrender to Elven Vanity
Yet it seems such fun, and such splendour for the Elven Tree,
because, odd is the even of 300 and why does this mean 1500 for every--one!
Disease again, yet, nay still not seen by anyone
and still not even for ninety summer suns beyond the 1500 for everyone
But look again--tall ships and tall kings--and again--three times three--
What Orc would put that upon a pike? Nay, this cannot be!
Is it not a head, for of the body it was, of Elven Vanity
Who of course, is that supposed to mean?
Can someone explain this to me?
So why say 'it's the gate into the day, not dawned, beyond the night'?
And then, what brought they from the foundered land?
Over the flowing sea?
Nay--not yet seven stars and seven stones
and Nay -- not yet one white tree

1. Pitchwife pegged the numbers as about The Tale of the Years and the pike thing is Celebrimbor's head on a pike.
2. Tho Pervinca has not quite the right identity for the 'He' in naming Aule, what he got right was that the 'He' in the riddle has/operates under the same 'portfolio' of expertise as Aule--crafting/manship. I'll add here that Aule's Dwarves were borne of Love of Eru even tho they also, it might be said, were begot of Vanity. Eru spared the Dwarves for love. But, love was not always the prime directive of other crafts of Vanity.

So - a 'He' of Aulie's domain, yet not Aule, --master craftsperson-- who, metaphorically can and cannot beget 'progeny' (metaphor) as can Eru.

I'm looking for responses, especially, to the particular questions in the riddle :) cheers everyone

[Pitchwife]

All right, let's try to shed some more light into this darkness. From LotR Appendix B,The Tale of Years :

Second Age 1200 Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him, but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans beginn to make permanent havens.

+ 300 = 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

+ 90 = 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.

With that in mind, the person addressed at the beginning must be Sauron, handsome and comely in his disguise as Annatar Lord of Gifts, Lord of the Seven and the three times three = Nine, but not of the Three. He can beget no children, as Evil cannot create but only mar, but wasn't he something like the project manager in charge of turning Elves into Orcs for Morgoth way back when?[/vague memory], so Orcs could be his metaphorical children?

"Tall ships and tall kings" seems to refer to the Númenoreans building havens, as mentioned in the 1200 annal, and/or to the navy Tar-Minastir sent to aid Gil-galad.

Im still hazy about the "disease" mentioned twice, and "the gate into the day" etc. The latter is obviously a quotation, but from where and said by whom? And how does it all hang together?

(PS. - Pitchwife has a lot of great scenes all over the Second Chronicles. My favourite is when the First tells of her temptation by the Elohim, when one of them took the shape of an unstunted Pitchwife and she rejected him because he lacked her husband's heart and humour - awww!

But I suppose we shouldn't take discussion of Giantish matters too far on this thread, lest the skwerlz descend on us.;))

[Pervinca Took]

I did think of Annatar, and Frodo's answer regarding the orcs (and whether they eat and drink): 'the shadow that made them can only mock; it cannot make.'

Not as eloquently as Pitchwife, though. ;)

Could the disease be the unwholesomeness that Sauron brought to two different places when, after his fall, he took up residence there? Mirkwood, due to his proximity (in Dol Guldur - is that right - ie is it near Mirkwood?) and then in Mordor. (I'm not sure Mordor was particularly a health-spa before he went back there, though). ;)

[Ivriniel]

Hey there Pitchwife :) excellent numerology hahaha - we'll have to set u up with a shopfront and advertise :)

All right, let's try to shed some more light into this darkness. From LotR Appendix B,The Tale of Years :

Second Age 1200 Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him, but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans beginn to make permanent havens.

+ 300 = 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

+ 90 = 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.

yes, yes, and yes -

With that in mind, the person addressed at the beginning must be Sauron, handsome and comely in his disguise as Annatar Lord of Gifts,

Yes - I've always wondered if he had a 'gf', or series (typical bad boi, bad boi romping, or bf/s for that matter, or both), and whether or not that had anything to do with his alliance formations, or process. Sort of like Dorian Grey.

Lord of the Seven and the three times three = Nine, but not of the Three. He can beget no children, as Evil cannot create but only mar, but wasn't he something like the [b]project manager in charge of turning Elves into Orcs for Morgoth[/b[ way back when?[/vague memory], so Orcs could be his metaphorical children?

HAHAHAHAHA - prolly - and most prolly a micromanager. Did he have control issues or what! Eru must have had a lot child-rearing headaches hahahaha

The ideas about evil not being able to beget children and marring I used. I was a bit off the mark with that one in some ways. I don't think Sauron ever 'made' anything living of his own, that I can recall. Morgoth had tanties and spat his dummy marring Eru's creations - with a project manager.

But, I kinda :) decided Ringwraiths were Sauron's children. Definitely had anti-social tendencies, as did Sauron's Vampires, and I think also he did the Werewolves (of Tol Sirion, FA, I think).

"Tall ships and tall kings" seems to refer to the Númenoreans building havens, as mentioned in the 1200 annal, and/or to the navy Tar-Minastir sent to aid Gil-galad.

Woulda got right up Sauron's nose to see so much Numenorean might. I always get confused about timelines - Ar Pharazon in returning took Sauron back to Numenor. I seem to recall the One was made by then. The Rings were forged, weren't they, by the time Sauron was taken captive?

If they were do we have Ringwraith candidates from The Land of Gifts? Might have appealed to a Numenorean from a disaffected blood line. (Actually, sounds wrong. I can never seem to remember when exactly Ringwraiths appear. I think its' around 800 or 900 TA. But that doesn't say anything about 'when' a man received one of the Nine and then 'how long' it all took. But we never found out which three Numenoreans became wraiths.

We know that when the Witchking was standing, his knee was where Merry cleaved undead flesh (I think Merry was kneeling). Tolkien used the words "mighty knee" to describe the Witchking in a reference to stature.

So what's left?

Im still hazy about the "disease" mentioned twice, and "the gate into the day" etc. The latter is obviously a quotation, but from where and said by whom? And how does it all hang together?

......

(PS. - Pitchwife has a lot of great scenes all over the Second Chronicles. My favourite is when the First tells of her temptation by the Elohim, when one of them took the shape of an unstunted Pitchwife and she rejected him because he lacked her husband's heart and humour - awww!

I so hear you. I think that were it not for moments like that, so timeless and reminder of where to rest the heart when in solitude, so recall a way to live a real life in our often creepy, crazy world. I'm moved to recall the mythology like that, and (those Elohim - my god, they just weren't right, were they). I think the moderators will be okay with 'just a touch' of ye olde Donaldson-ian ways. If I put it on topic, that should help:

There is a clue in Pitchwife's bodily bearing, actually, that aligns with the Riddle. It's interesting, isn't it, the strange coincidences. Pitchwife's 'spirits' and 'heart' of Giant were 'not diseased' -- in fact a Giant of such moving beauty, joy and great loyalty and love -

Even though, I seem to recall, his deformation was, by part, affliction of the Bane in the background, creeping over the world - Sunbane.

The next poster follows this idea on.

Thanx so much for the responses, Pitchwife, and kind regards

[Ivriniel]

I did think of Annatar, and Frodo's answer regarding the orcs (and whether they eat and drink): 'the shadow that made them can only mock; it cannot make.'

Not as eloquently as Pitchwife, though. ;)

Thanx Pervinca, I think that's perfectly put. :) You've added the last and missing pieced to the riddle really nicely.

Could the disease be the unwholesomeness that Sauron brought to two different places when, after his fall, he took up residence there? Mirkwood, due to his proximity (in Dol Guldur - is that right - ie is it near Mirkwood?) and then in Mordor.

Right on. Disease means Sauronic 'pestilence'. Wherever that one (One) (pardon pun) walked, things withered, faded, failed, got warped, started sucking lifeforce outa things, and such. Real fun to have around, that Maia! hahahaha

The Noldor in Eregion missed it from 1200 to the disaster of 1590.

(I'm not sure Mordor was particularly a health-spa before he went back there, though). ;)

hahahahah He'd have made the chlorination stuff that smells into something that UNsmells hahahaha (Unlight, Ungoliant, 'un' etc), and UNkills germs or something like that!!!!! I know,

One Spa to Rule them All
One Spa to Filter them
One Spa to Wraith-ise those Germs
And in the Armpit Grow them!

hahahahah

[Ivriniel]

the one item of the riddle - i'll complete. It's minor, and wasn't asked as a question.

"Lofty Lord to Those, yet not so to These..."

Referred to Annatar's initial coming, I think it was in Lindon, where he spoke to Cirdan's mob, and they thought he seemed a bit off colour, so they sent Mr Bad Boi Annatar (with aftershave that smelt fine, but seemed foul), to the Noldor in Eregion (and let's face it. After the Kinslaying, they all had a bit of that same aftershave thing - a bit of stench, of the UNsmell kind. Noldor were never the best judges of character.

Seemed a thread thru Aule's aligned persons. The Noldor, most gifted in Crafting. Sauron, the renegade Maia of Aule's domain. And Aule - who wrought some off-centre things in crafting - but redeemed were the Mighty Dwarves and truly, as well, their 'firmament', bearing Aule, most resistant to even a Maia of Aule's realm: nigh immunity to the seven.

Interesting all the cross-themes, in this one, I found

Thanx for the responses

Whose Next? You two decide :)

[Pervinca Took]

Pitchwife did the vast majority of the work. I'd say it's definitely over to Pitchwife. :)

(Also, although I have loads of experience in writing cryptic clues, I don't think I've ever written a riddle).

(By the way, the first disease I thought of was the one that carried off Lalaith, but then I realised I was in the wrong Age). ;)

[Ivriniel]

Pitchwife did most of the work. I'd say it's definitely over to Pitchwife. :)

(Also, although I have loads of experience in writing Cryptic Rules, I don't think I've ever written a riddle).

I hear ya :) it's a tat (just a tat, only a tat - writing a riddle in public only not like 'hideous', I mean we could have distended bellies for starvation, or have lost any of out family - Ebola - dear eru, thank u for getting on top of the epidemic, but an Elvish prayer for the deceased). Anyhooz :) seems to me, Master Pitchwife *bows* it's 'tag ur it!

I'm sure it'll be perfectly perfect,

[Ivriniel]

Pitchwife did the vast majority of the work. I'd say it's definitely over to Pitchwife.

(Also, although I have loads of experience in writing cryptic clues, I don't think I've ever written a riddle).

(By the way, the first disease I thought of was the one that carried off Lalaith, but then I realised I was in the wrong Age). ;)

PS Pervinca, :) who says we can't have TWO riddles running CONCURRENT, in fact, I gottan idea

Say - why don't u wait for Pitwife to caste his riddle - then - add in a 'duo riddle' concept - i.e. write either of:

1. An Extension.
2. An Inversion.
3. An Augmentation

or

simple Second Verse - that somehow links theme one (Pitwife) to ur Theme Two

then we all gotta Duo Riddle to answer :)

Interested? :anyone else want to pipe up to say 'yay or nay'?

[Pitchwife]

Butbutbut what's the solution to the riddle as a whole? Sauron? Rings of Power? Or is there even one? *scratches head in confusion*

OK anyway, if you consider this riddle solved I can try to cobble something together in the next couple of days, but I'm a bit rusty, so if Pervinca has something up her sleeve I'm fine with her going ahead.

As for the timeline, the Rings of Power (including the One) were forged roughly in the middle of the Second Age, whereas the big action with Ar-Pharazôn was about millennium and a half after that, with the Nazgûl first appearing inbetween, in S.A. 2251.

I notice you seem fascinated with Sauron's erotic life, Ivriniel!:eek::D I'm not sure if he indulged in such pursuits at all, being a Maia, but if he did, I think he would have used sex as a tool for domination only (if you've read the Gap series, think of Angus Thermopyle with less mother issues, more self control and way more malice).

(As for my namesake and his creator, much as I'd like to talk about them at greater length I really feel we shouldn't clutter the Riddles thread with that, but if you're interested in discussing Tolkien with an eye on Donaldson (or Donaldson with an eye on Tolkien), I made a thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15499) about Donaldson's reading of LotR a few years ago; we could revive it and move over there, or you could just PM me. Cheers!:))


EDIT: x-ed with the two of you by half an hour. I really shouldn't post from work! *rolleyes-at-self*

[Pervinca Took]

Psssst! Come and play in the Password thread too!

[Ivriniel]

Butbutbut what's the solution to the riddle as a whole? Sauron? Rings of Power? Or is there even one? *scratches head in confusion*

Okay :) It's the tale of the years, from Annatar's arrival into Eregion. Numenorean beginnings.

“Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree."

The end of the riddle - it's the end of the Tale of the Years for the tale of years told in rhyme

Nay--not yet seven stars and seven stones
and Nay -- not yet one white tree

Finishes with that part of Numenorean History not yet covered by Tolkien's poem. It's not until well towards the end of SA (when Elendil flees the Drowing of Numenor and the armada of Ar Pharazon is borne, gurgle gurgle a kagillion years in the caves of the forgotten, until they getta chance in the remaking. I hope their wait was worth it. I imagine Ar Pharazon would have been quite well very over all his people throwing rotten tomatoes at him over the aeons for leading them astray. And people everywhere saying "Where's Tar whatshisname - There's Ar Phewagain Kids! He stinks - toss more tomatoes. Don't talk to him, he's the reason we don't have sandpits and normal toys like your cousins upstairs, the snooty ones that thought they were better than us, well, they're in that normal place, Duned-whoozits we keep trying to tell you about"

I'll answer the riddle - explained in Rhyme :) :)

Numenor, being founded after The War of Wrath,
Yea! Earendil went forth with Vingilot
And Elros, brother twin, founded Estel in Wandering
Thence far off into the Night
Annatar - Lord of Gifts he bore Unlight
First to Lindon, Cirdan's Realm
A land of Farsight Straight, True and Clear
Where Palantir Emyn Beriad to Tol Eresea its glance
And so tho Cirdan was of Nolddorin kind
He Bore Unsight, yet true so sees Annatar's Hue
it so seeming light, yet as tho by some art,
So say Cirdan, Nay Annatar! Lord not is one who bears Gifts
Into the Night though shalt roam be not our Kin and Home

And so, fled Annatar unto Celebrimbor's Abode
Where it was that he pondered long
Galadriel's sending away of Feanor's kin without love's bond
For Galadriel, she did, refuse Celebrimbor's hand to wed
For was it not so, that unfriends with Feanor she was unto the End

And woe, then now for that is how Annatar found a foothold
The Elessar tho Galadriel held, the love of Celebrimbor's Hope
And while hearts wounded pondered long
Celebrimbor's hand, Annatar did hold
And under the moon and starlight said
Ai! Annatar - Celebrimbor deceived who
seemed himself said a Ring I see Foreseen Tonight
Nay Three I see of Elvenkind -
tho doom was wrought, for it was Annatar who spoke
and Celebrimbor so heard what was seen and so thus it was

Yet Three Time Three again for Men
For Governace of Mortal needs Unsight
Yet not the Kind Cirdan holds well
And so it was Celebrimbor fell
For Sauron's words 'Unsight' meant 'Unwell' but only for Men
And that is how Celebrimbor missed the Ring Spell

And long Sauron wrought his Unliving Children's Hell
'The Nine he wrought and Seven as well
And from 1500 to 1950 - Gwaith I Mirdain Cirdan knew so well
A Hall of Great Lore, of Elven Spell and Realm Valinor nigh even as well
Thus, Celebrimbor Fell
For Valinor in Middle Earth, a Vanity of Sauron's head
For though Elf wrought Ring of Sparing and Unfading Long
Yet still, one thread alone of Middle Earth
Was what Sauron needed to Weave One around all
Eslave all and yet be One,
to Rule them All, through Slave of Birth,

Narya! Vilya! Nenya Free!
Yet one thread each of Middle Earth's Realm each must have held
And so on Orodruin's Night
in -- not Unsight -- but Unlight that is of Ea Running in the Inverse
Ash Nazg Durbataluk - Orodruin's Might
Ash Nazg Gimbatul - Orodruin's Despite
Ash Nazg Thrakataluk - Orodruin's Unlife
Ach Burzum Ishi Krimpatul - Orodruin's laugh Unto Midnight

It is 1590 - the Dawn of the Dark Night

The Orcs they came and feasted on Elven Light
They hacked and maimed the Ost-In-Edhil - Eregion's Plight
Celebrimbor he stood, at the Mirdain's Gate
The Hordes of Hate and glee of greed's might
Transgressed and trammelled Cirdan's last Rite

His head, they hewed and put upon a pike
And as Sauron feasted in Unlight
The Banners and Helms - Ai! It is the Numenoreans!
Look at their eyes - sea grey Elven in Starlight
They Call with Voice of Valinor's Sight

And despoiled the despoilers Sauron Vanquished
Yet still foreboding - Ar Pharazon is Coming
And Doom's Footsteps unhalting
Until The Witchking's Making

[Ivriniel]

Psssst! Come and play in the Password thread too!

:) let's checkit out

[Ivriniel]

I just had a thought - Cirdan must have viewed Tol Erestea from the Tower of Emyn Beriad. So, when Annatar came to Middle Earth, perhaps it was Cirdan's communications (there were other Palantiri in Valinor) or just viewing of the Uttermost West - even that would have been enough, 'extra' clarity of Sight True - to see through Annatar - just a thought.

Far forwards in time, then, when Galadriel and Gandalf bore the Palantir from Lindon to Valinor. If the Stones had sentience it must have had a very long time in Emyn Beriad alone - a merry journey then that Stone and glad to be going Home.


...thanx again for ur posts - who's gunna write one...

[Urwen]

So who is next?

[Pitchwife]

It seems I was, but I forgot all about it :o and I don't even have the beginning of an idea. I'd like to pass my turn on to Pervinca because the two of us solved the last one together, but if she doesn't want it or is unavailable anyone can go ahead.

[Pervinca Took]

A kind offer, Pitchwife, but I never seem to have ideas for riddles, although I like making up cryptic clues.

Would anyone like to write the next riddle?

[Urwen]

I could, and will steer clear of my two obsessions. Let me think of one.

Okay, here goes

Though we went through thick and thin
Our company had dissolved in this time frame
I, the last one standing,
Shall now take all the blame

I was afraid
Afraid of what might happen to our kin
And because of this worry
I have fallen into sin

Now, even if I am estranged,
And no longer within reach
I could at least rest knowing
That we have been avenged

Not too good, but I think it's pretty good for something made on spur-of-a-moment.

[Pervinca Took]

Is this Turin, Urwen? He always seemed to end up alone, and he certainly ended up with a lot of blood on his hands.

[Urwen]

Nope. I did say I will steer clear from my obsessions, which means no la familia or Tar-Miriel.

[Pervinca Took]

OK. I didn't know what your obsessions were when I posted. ;)

The riddle's narrator sounds kind of dwarvish, I think.

[Urwen]

Nope, not a dwarf.

Hint: the narrator isn't actually the last one standing, but since the final member of group is somewhere else, he is the last one of those that were there.

Hope it isn't too confusing.

[Pervinca Took]

It makes me think of the son of Feanor left singing in regret and remorse ... was it Maglor?

Tar-Miriel is Numenorean, I think, not Finwe's first wife? So I am not in the territory of your two obsessions. ;)

[Urwen]

Not that either, but you have the right book on that last one. Maglor is the last one for real.

Also, Urwen's interesting info: Hin Hurin are my la familia. The screen name I have is the birth name of one of them.

This has been Urwen's interesting info.

[Pervinca Took]

I know who Urwen is, Urwen. ;)

[Urwen]

Good, you figured out my real identity, now can you figure out the identity of my mystery dude?

[Ivriniel]

Celebrimbor O Eregion?

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Ivriniel]

What about Mim?

[Urwen]

Right age, wrong answer.

[Galadriel55]

I'm thinking Gorlim, who gave in to Sauron fearing for his wife, and who posthumously let Beren know about his treason so that Beren would avenge the group...

[Urwen]

Yessire.

[Galadriel55]

When creativity runs low, I turn to cryptics. 'mfraid it's not too original, but should be fun to piece together.



My first is exactly the same as my fourth.
My second died out in the South, not the North.
My third and my fourth stand 'twixt hoops and their master,
Between bird and light, who saved lands from disaster.
My fifth is the colour of heroes and dragons.
My sixth is a fancy and glorified cabin.
Put them together, but that's not the answer:
My name that was given at birth's what you're after.


Happy riddling!

[Urwen]

My answer is Ereinion, better known by his second name, which fits the clues. However, I am not so sure.....'fancy, glorified cabin' and 'the bird of light' clues have me stuck....

[Nerwen]

It's been a while, Urwen. I wonder if G55 even remembers the answer?

[Urwen]

Well, if she doesn't confirm and deny it within 72 hours, then we can declare it open?

[Galadriel55]

I didn't remember it, but I was able to figure it out based on a vague memory of one of the clues.

You can't get the answer from the last lines. Ereinion does not fit any of the clues except that he has two names - but so do many othets. What are his six?

It's cryptic, which means you have to solve each line separately first before you can get the answer. Give it a shot!

[Urwen]

The only thing I know is the fifth clue, which is either gold or black. Do we take a single letter from the clues or do we have to combine all of them into one big phrase.

If big phrase is involved, the only one I could think of is Ar-Pharazon the Golden, which does have a birth name of sorts and I can put the fifth clue, the only one I know, in there....

[Galadriel55]

Right on with the fifth clue! Reposting the riddle on this page, and the answers as they come up:

My first is exactly the same as my fourth.
My second died out in the South, not the North.
My third and my fourth stand 'twixt hoops and their master,
Between bird and light, who saved lands from disaster.
My fifth is the colour of heroes and dragons.
My sixth is a fancy and glorified cabin.
Put them together, but that's not the answer:
My name that was given at birth's what you're after.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5. GOLDEN
6.



I won't tell you yet what to do with the individual clues - try to get one or two more first, and you might figure it out yourself. ;)

Not Ar-Pharazon, though you're right about the word GOLDEN. I would recommend working out the clues though instead of going through names with gold in them.

[Urwen]

As for the third clue, I think it's the word 'of' standing between Rings (hoops) and their master (Lord)

And this is where I am drawing a blank.


Of course, I have one more idea in the back of my foggy brain....could the answer to sixth clue be 'wood'. As in, 'Cabin in the Woods'?

Edit: Or maybe the answer to sixth clue is 'gap'?

Edit 2: Okay, I'll gamble it all here. The answer is you.

1. The
2. Lady
3. Of
4. The
5. Golden
6. Wood

aka you.

[Nerwen]

But when did ladies die out in the South?:confused:

My guess is that 2. and 6. are "King" and "Hall" respectively. If I'm right about that, and you're right about the rest, that would make it The King of the Golden Hall = Theoden.

[Urwen]

But I doubt fourth clue is just 'the'.

[Nerwen]

Well, it says, "my first is exactly the same as my fourth". And also you pointed out yourself, "of" is one of the words between "Lord" and "Rings"- but the other is "the", and the riddle speaks of "my third and my fourth".

[Urwen]

Yeah, but I don't want you to solve it, because.....well, setting puzzles for others to solve is one of my hobbies, and I am a bad solver overall....

[Galadriel55]

Yeah, but I don't want you to solve it, because.....well, setting puzzles for others to solve is one of my hobbies, and I am a bad solver overall....

Sorry Urwen, but Nerwen was spot on. The answer is Theoden. You got a good part of the riddle. But Nerwen gets to set the next one.

[Urwen]

*dissolves into a poodle of water*

[Nerwen]

*dissolves into a poodle of water*
A poodle of water? Is this some mystic hound in the service of Ulmo?:cool:

Now look, if it means that much to you, Urwen, you can have the next turn. I'm not that great at making up riddles anyway.

[Urwen]

I don't know, I'd like to earn the right to post one, rather than feeling as if I've stolen it. So if you have one, post if. If not, I'll take it.

[Nerwen]

Well, do you have one ready?

[Urwen]

Yes, I do. And you?

[Nerwen]

No. So, again, do you want to go first?

[Urwen]

Honestly, I do wish to. And here


The hunter watches
Watches with vigil
At night and during day
I am his prey

There were creatures
Bigger than many dwellers here
Their treasures were great
One of them was given to me

The stronghold of old
Into our fortress we made
Where we took the stand bold
Against shadow and shade

Yet it ended badly for us
And the curse it brought
Upon me and the others
Or so we thought

Well, I edited the original to be more poetic.

[Nerwen]

I know! I know!

LALAITH!!!!

Am I right or am I right? :Merisu:

[Urwen]

You are right.....

Not. :p

[Pervinca Took]

Balin, in Moria?

[Nerwen]

*bump*
Urwen? Well?

[Nerwen]

*bumping intensifies*
UUURRRRRWENNNN!!!

[Nerwen]

*bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *bump* *BUMP* *bump*

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRWWWWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEE ENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

[Urwen]

I am here, I am here, I am here.

And it's not. Be careful, lest the answer hits you like a boomerang.

Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee.

Look at the icon. :laughs:

[Nerwen]

The icon? I'm pretty sure the answer's not the Ring... or did you mean it's a Ringbearer? Bilbo in Erebor?

[Urwen]

Yes, I did mean that second one, though your answer is still incorrect.

[Nerwen]

Yes, I did mean that second one, though your answer is still incorrect.
Frodo, then?

[Urwen]

Yes. :o

[Huinesoron]

Well, there seems to be a rule that (last riddle answered+ten days pass)=open thread, so I guess I'm free to sneak in here... I accidentally wrote a series of four riddles while pondering this thread, so I'm not going to pass up an opportunity to post one. ^_^

Last of all but first among us
Strong and bold and named there-for
Took my hand in glorious springtime
Ere we saw the starlit shore.

His the strength to help the helpless
Mine the grace beneath the trees
Young and strong we run together
Who am I?
And who is he?

There are two valid answers to this riddle. Well, there may be more, but I can think of two. Each answer, of course, consists of two names.

hS

[Nerwen]

Hmmn. Does this mean we have to guess both answers? I believe "You are Nessa, he is Tulkas" must be one of them, anyway.

[Nerwen]

Now, I'll bet you are going to be much trickier with the second answer, and so I should look for something more abstract/metaphorical- that is, "you" and "he" are not actual people this time. "Run together" suggests rivers to me, so I will guess "'You' are the Esgalduin, 'he' is the Sirion".

[Huinesoron]

Nessa and Tulkas are indeed the first meaning, and I can tell you that they were supposed to be the only meaning. The original second line was 'Crowned with gold and named there-for', referencing Tulkas' Valarin name - but I changed it.

No comment either way on whether I'm being tricksy (;)), but I'm afraid Esgalduin-Sirion is not an answer I'd thought of.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Well, it's been a while, so in addition to leaving that one to ponder, I shall offer up a second riddle. This one doesn't have a double meaning. :)

Last of all he joined the journey
Though at first one of the three
Ventured forth and found new honour
Before returning home - to me.

Though the youngest of his fellows
He took the title deemed most high
While I by name alone am titled
Who is he?
And who am I?

[Urwen]

Finarfin and Earwen?

[Huinesoron]

Urwen - that's a really good answer, but not the one I'm thinking of. :)

hS

[Urwen]

My next answer is Olorin and Valinor?


Or Aragorn and Arwen?

[Galadriel55]

Is He = Gandalf?

[Urwen]

Is He = Gandalf?


I said it first......



Guess stealer. :(

[Galadriel55]

I said it first......



Guess stealer. :(

Oops, sorry! I glanced if Gandalf was mentioned but didn't pay attention to Olorin. :o

[Urwen]

Well, it seems there is no reply from the riddle maker yet. Does anyone mind me making a new riddle? If so, then speak up or forever hold your peace.

[Huinesoron]

Hey, at least give me a day to get back to it! ;)

Not Olorin & Valinor (though that's a brilliant answer), or Aragorn and Arwen. So let's see, hints... 'new honour' and 'the title deemed most high' do not refer to the same thing. And 'by name alone am titled' means that the speaker is one of those many characters who basically exists just as a name.

hS

[Urwen]

Finrod and Amarie, then? She's known by name only.

[Huinesoron]

Nope (Finrod was the eldest of his siblings, and probably older than at least some of his cousins). Muuuuch later; we're down in the Third Age here.

hS

[Urwen]

Nope (Finrod was the eldest of his siblings, and probably older than at least some of his cousins). Muuuuch later; we're down in the Third Age here.

hS


Sam and Rosie?


Pippin and Diamond?

[Huinesoron]

Dingdingding!


Last of all he joined the journey
Though at first one of the three
Ventured forth and found new honour
Before returning home - to me.

Though the youngest of his fellows
He took the title deemed most high
While I by name alone am titled
Who is he?
And who am I?

Pippin was the last member of the Fellowship to be officially appointed, though he had been one of the original three companions in the Shire. He became a Guard of the Cotadel, then returned home to marry Diamond of Long Cleeve. He was the youngest hobbit in the Fellowship, but wound up Thain of the Shire, the titular ruler of the region. Diamond, meanwhile, exists only as a name and some children.

Phew! Well done, Urwen, and a well-earned 'over to you'.

hS

[Urwen]

Thank you. Here is a fairly simple one I've been cooking up.



The Beauty and the Brave
That's what we were
Yet because of a single moment
We were no more


But that moment didn't last
Because we won His favor
The island with a spooky title
Was where we lived with fervor


Here we've dwelled
Till we've left the world
And despite the ages that passed by
We're still remembered through song

[Galadriel55]

Beren and Luthien?

[Urwen]

Beren and Luthien?


Yeah. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADyEfxTYO-g)


Can you explain, though?

[Galadriel55]

Well, Beauty and Brave are appropriate titles. After dying they succeed in pleading with Mandos to grant exceptions from the fates of both their races. Following resurrection they live in the Land of Living Dead or something similar, which is a pretty creepy name if you don't know the backstory. Finally their story still lives in the Third Age and is literally presented to us for the first time in the form of a song.

[Urwen]

Your turn. You've earned it.

[Galadriel55]

Your turn. You've earned it.

Thank'ee!

This shouldn't be a difficult nut either. Enjoy!



Don't be afraid, don't turn away,
Though we look old we have no sway.
Our fathers here left us to stand;
Their children left ancestral lands,
Their speech is loud but we are deaf,
We both mark ways away from death.
Our deeds forgotten, our purpose gone,
Our mournful gaze falls onto stone.

[Pervinca Took]

The Argonath?

[Galadriel55]

The Argonath?

No, but good thinking. You're on the right track.

You know what? This riddle could have been much cooler if I involved the Argonath. Maybe several years from now when this one is forgotten I'll reuse it with an update. :p

[Pervinca Took]

'Both' made me think there were two, and was partly what made me think of the Argonath, but it could be 'us' and 'those others,' reading the riddle again.

It also makes me think of Legolas's 'fair they builded us ... but they are gone. They sought the havens long ago.' I can't remember what 'us' is, though.

[Galadriel55]

It also makes me think of Legolas's 'fair they builded us ... but they are gone. They sought the havens long ago.' I can't remember what 'us' is, though.

It was the stones in Eregion. Another excellent answer but not the right one, I'm afraid. Keep going, you're getting there.

[Huinesoron]

Is it the stones on the path up to Dunharrow? The Púkel-men, who were probably placed by the Woses/Druedain; both they and 'their [ie, the makers'] children' guard ways away from death, in that the two roads taken from Rohan to Minas Tirith were through the Druadan Forest and the Paths of the Dead.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Quiet around here suddenly. I know it hasn't been long, but you were so close with those guesses I thought you'll hit it with the next swing.


EDIT: Ha! Cross posted!

[Galadriel55]

Is it the stones on the path up to Dunharrow? The Púkel-men, who were probably placed by the Woses/Druedain; both they and 'their [ie, the makers'] children' guard ways away from death, in that the two roads taken from Rohan to Minas Tirith were through the Druadan Forest and the Paths of the Dead.

hS


Exactly! It is the Pukel-men in Dunharrow. The description is based on the passage when Merry sees them, and a bit of info about the Druedain near Amon Din.

I was thinking that the statues point the way into the haven/fortress/survival place of Rohan while the living Druedain show the Rohirrim a road that avoids death at the hands of the army guarding the main road. But your explanation works as well.


Over to you!

[Huinesoron]

Yay! Great riddle, I love how much depth you've snuck in there.

And since I've got this one all prepared...

Last of all and named to prove it
Though the sense was left unclear
Took me north to broken kingdom
From my southern home so dear

He laid claim to ancient title
When my father cold did lie
Yet the crown fell to my cousin
So who are they?
And who am I?

Three names being looked for here (or even four!), but 'He' and 'I' are the key ones.

Hopefully not too hard...

hS

[Galadriel55]

Sounds like some Arnor/Gondor thing. Here's my best solution:

He = Arvedui, last King of Arthedain, a piece of the broken Arnor Kingdom. Wanted to reunite the Kingdoms under himself as ... High King presumably?
I = his wife Firiel, the Gondorian princess
Father = (had to look him up) Ondoher
Cousin = (likewise) Earnil II

If I remember correctly Gondor was left without a direct son and heir, and there was a debate. The King of Arnor (presumably Arvedui but I'm not too sure) presented his claim to the throne as 1) the husband of the heiress and 2) a descendant of Isildur, but it was rejected because 1) in Gondor only the male line was used and 2) Gondor is Aranion's Kingdom, Isildur got Arnor.

[Huinesoron]

Exactly right! 'Arvedui' is translated 'last-king', a name given to him by Malbeth the Seer. Malbeth explicitly says that he's either going to be the last king of Arthedain because it will be destroyed, or because he will wind up as High King.

It takes... a fair amount of gumption for the ragtag king of a shattered realm (two-thirds of which have been conquered by Angmar!) to say 'hey, I'll happily take over your prosperous southern kingdom' and expect it to stick, but that's Arvedui for you: he was never afraid to throw himself at a challenge.

(Which didn't exactly end well for him, but hey, he tried.)

Anyway, over to you!

hS

PS: The events surrounding the loss of the two Dunedain royal lines within a generation of each other are one of the few incidents in Tolkien where it's entirely possible to root for both sides of a conflict. I have said, and maintain, that the period would make an excellent candidate for Amazon's Game of Middle-earth Thrones thingy - not least because there's so little canon material for them to break!

[Galadriel55]

Great riddle! I like how you tied in multiple names and facts together so neatly.

PS: The events surrounding the loss of the two Dunedain royal lines within a generation of each other are one of the few incidents in Tolkien where it's entirely possible to root for both sides of a conflict. I have said, and maintain, that the period would make an excellent candidate for Amazon's Game of Middle-earth Thrones thingy - not least because there's so little canon material for them to break!

That's actually a very good idea. Like a really really good idea.


Here's another fairly simple riddle. No rhyme for this one, creativity running low, but you still get a rhythm. :p

Through great peril and enchantment
On wings birdless I speed onward
Past the dark place and the light one
'Cause I promised. Where now am I?

[Pervinca Took]

Earendil ... now Venus?

[Galadriel55]

Not him.

[Pervinca Took]

Luthien in her bat disguise, but now beyond the Circles of the World?

[Galadriel55]

Not her either. Maybe the riddle is not as simple as I thought. In both answers, what is the promise that spurs the first lines?

[Pervinca Took]

Aragorn, promising to get to the Pelennor after going through the Paths of the Dead?

Ah, what were the promises vis-a-vis my wrong answers? I thought maybe Earendil promised the Valar to sail Vingilot across the skies / some vague promise of loyalty to Beren from Luthien.

But when considering the 'promise' bit I thought the wings could be Shadowfax and the promise Gandalf's - to return to Theoden .. and he is now back in Valinor.

[Galadriel55]

Still no correct answer, but getting closer in a way.

[Urwen]

I'll go with dear Sam and his promise to Gandalf.

[Galadriel55]

I'll go with dear Sam and his promise to Gandalf.

Ok and in that case what are the wings and the places?

Not the answer. Is it time for a hint?

[Urwen]

Easy. 'Wings' in Tolkien language could mean running really fast, as in 'Fly you fools'. The places are Minas Morgul and Lothlorien.

And if not, I'd say it is time for one.

[Galadriel55]

Easy. 'Wings' in Tolkien language could mean running really fast, as in 'Fly you fools'. The places are Minas Morgul and Lothlorien.

And if not, I'd say it is time for one.

I would argue that Sam passed through many dark and light places, not just those two. And though in Tolkien language wings might be entirely metaphorical, they aren't entirely so in mine.

As for the hint... Give the last question a thought. It's more than just a question for you to answer, it's a clue in itself.

[Urwen]

Maybe Gandalf, on Shadowfax?

[Pervinca Took]

I suggested Gandalf and Shadowfax in my last post.

...

Does Sam promise Gandalf anything? In the book?

[Pervinca Took]

Not Gandalf falling with the Balrog? Depths of Moria, then out on the mountain-top?

Promise ... 'I will always help you' - to Frodo?

It was your mention of wings that did it ....

But 'peril and enchantment' do suggest Angband ... or maybe the Girdle of Melian (or Galadriel's enchantment of Lothlorien).

[Galadriel55]

So far all the answers come from the wrong time. And seriously, think about the Where question. It's more than a question.

[Huinesoron]

"Where now the horse and the rider?"

Eorl the Young rode south with wings of cavalry to aid Gondor as he promised, past dark Mirkwood and golden Lorien (and through a cloud of enchantment from the latter, I vaguely recall). Depending on how you read it, he is now ruling in Rohan, lying in a barrow, or beyond the circles of the world.

Alternately, Theoden the Old kept the same promise in the same manner, passing the White Mountains and the dark Druadan Forest (which many say is enchanted). He wound up on the Pelennor fields, then in a barrow at Edoras or in the Timeless Halls with his forefathers.

hS

[Urwen]

Maybe Aredhel, who is now with Mandos, in Mandos. :p

[Galadriel55]

"Where now the horse and the rider?"

Eorl the Young rode south with wings of cavalry to aid Gondor as he promised, past dark Mirkwood and golden Lorien (and through a cloud of enchantment from the latter, I vaguely recall). Depending on how you read it, he is now ruling in Rohan, lying in a barrow, or beyond the circles of the world.

hS

Bravo! Eorl indeed. I had Felarof's winged deet in mind but everything else is exact.

The riddle was sort of inspired by your last one, got me digging through half-forgotten texts. I think the oath on Halifirien is a beautiful passage, and you really get a sense of the now multiple reasons it's called Holy.

Over to you!

[Huinesoron]

Okay! This is the last one I've got pre-written, so hopefully I don't wind up answering any more. ^_^ I think it's pretty easy.

Last of all to hold his office
In the tower tall and proud
Yet my fate would bring him sorrow
And dark thoughts leave his head bowed.

Borne was I by bonds of marriage
To the Mountains from the Sea
Twelve short years before strength failed me
Who am I?
And who is he?

hS

[Urwen]

Denethor and Finduilas is my first guess.

[Huinesoron]

And the first guess is the last, because that's exactly right. ^_^

Over to you, Urwen.

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah, here is another quickie inspired by Huinesoron's riddle


We caught our prey
During the night so grey
But with the dawn of the day
Forever we'll stay

Now can you find the way
And who we are say?

[Pervinca Took]

The three trolls?

[Urwen]

Whether the riddle-maker or riddle guesser
The riddles are still well-made
And mine is well-made, little fella
As well-made as yours


And so they said, and so they said
Bert and Tom, and Will
But now the sun shines over their statues
And no one can hear.....






Well done, and over to you

[Pervinca Took]

I can't think of one right now ... would anyone else like to try? I have a few deadlines making annoying noises at me.

[Urwen]

I can't think of one right now ... would anyone else like to try? I have a few deadlines making annoying noises at me.


I am giving people 48 hours to step up, if no one does, I will again. :p

[Huinesoron]

Well, to avoid you having to do two in a row, here's one in a rather different style:

I saw this thing once:
A pillar dark with eyes of flame,
A pillar bright with sword of light,
And between them a fall of silver,
Of hope lost and hope reclaimed.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I haven't forgotten about this riddle, I just don't have any good ideas. I love the way it sounds though, it's great imagery!

To push things forward though, how about Sauron's fight with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

[Huinesoron]

I haven't forgotten about this riddle, I just don't have any good ideas. I love the way it sounds though, it's great imagery!

To push things forward though, how about Sauron's fight with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

None of those people are invol-- no, wait.

None of those people are presen-- hang on.

None of those people are physically present for the incident (and it is a specific incident) in question.

That'll do it. ^_^

hS

[Galadriel55]

Possibly Frodo looking afar from Amon Hen? Not sure what the pillar bright is, but tower dark sounds like "an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep".

[Huinesoron]

You're actually... really close with that, despite being in completely the wrong place. ^_^ You've definitely hit the themes correctly, and the right persons are... let's say referenced, for (un)clarity.

hS

[Urwen]

It's been several months, so......


Hint please?

[Huinesoron]

I'd forgotten about this! Okay, hints, hints... well, both Frodo and Sauron are referenced in the incident, though not physically present. And the 'pillars' are both people.

hS

[Urwen]

Hmmmm.....I think I know what it is, but just to be sure......


Does 'physically present' mean 'present in your own body'?


Or to put it in another way, if a person went to 'Otherworld', as I call it, would they still be 'physically present'?

[Huinesoron]

I can see where you're going with that, but no, in this case I just meant that they're not there at all, just referred to.

There are a lot of resonances between the standoff at the Fords of Bruinen and the scene I'm thinking of, though; now that you've brought the link to mind, I think it might well be deliberate on Tolkien's part.

hS

[Urwen]

Gandalf vs Balrog of Moria fight after their fall, with 'Silver' being 'Silvertine' aka 'Zirakzigil'?

[Huinesoron]

Not that one either, though I'm shocked that you found something that fits the riddle as well as the real answer.

However, Gandalf is indeed the pillar bright (and Glamdring his sword). You're a third of the way there!

hS

[Galadriel55]

I was initially convinced that Pillar Dark was Sauron, but I now realize that his "eye" would probably be singular in that case. You just don't think of Third Age Sauron with a pair of eyes.


So, how about Gandalf stopping the Nazgul from entering the gate of Minas Tirith? The most probable watcher is then Pippin... but it doesn't fit quite well with one of your previous hints.

[Huinesoron]

I was initially convinced that Pillar Dark was Sauron, but I now realize that his "eye" would probably be singular in that case. You just don't think of Third Age Sauron with a pair of eyes.

So, how about Gandalf stopping the Nazgul from entering the gate of Minas Tirith? The most probable watcher is then Pippin... but it doesn't fit quite well with one of your previous hints.

Later than that. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, only two instances fit in that case: Gandalf vs MoS or Gandalf vs Denethor.


And I'll say the former is closer, so I guess the former.

[Huinesoron]

I saw this thing once:
A pillar dark with eyes of flame,
A pillar bright with sword of light,
And between them a fall of silver,
Of hope lost and hope reclaimed.

Well, only two instances fit in that case: Gandalf vs MoS or Gandalf vs Denethor.

And I'll say the former is closer, so I guess the former.

Correct, Urwen! The relevant passages are:

At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’

...

The Messenger put these aside, and there to the wonder and dismay of all the Captains he held up first the short sword that Sam had carried, and next a grey cloak with an elven-brooch, and last the coat of mithril-mail that Frodo had worn wrapped in his tattered garments.

...

‘These we will take!’ said Gandalf suddenly. He cast aside his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place. Before his upraised hand the foul Messenger recoiled, and Gandalf coming seized and took from him the tokens: coat, cloak, and sword. ‘These we will take in memory of our friend,’ he cried. ‘But as for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone, for your embassy is over and death is near to you. We did not come here to waste words in treating with Sauron, faithless and accursed; still less with one of his slaves. Begone!’

'A pillar dark with eyes of flame' is the Mouth astride his fire-eyed horse. 'A pillar bright with sword of light' is Gandalf with his white light that 'shone forth like a sword'. The 'fall of silver' that lies between them is Frodo's mail of mithril, true-silver, that ripples like a waterfall. And while at first it seems that even Gandalf has lost hope and been defeated when the tokens are revealed, he reclaims both them and the initiative in the end.

(With, of course, a sly reference to the various 'hope' lines throughout the story, but mostly to Gandalf's succinct version that I think is original to the films: "There is still hope.")

hS

[Urwen]

Here is one that I hope is equally creative


The sea is a part of me
And I am a part of the sea
Fear once ruled me
But I managed to overcome it, you see


Darkness claimed me
For its own
My hope was lost
But they'll reap what they've sown


Because through it all
My heart remained true
My will remained steadfast
And my patience was at its end


Great fire burned at that time
One that was easily distinguished
My spirit might have left it all behind
But the flame in my heart wasn't extinguished

[Urwen]

No takers?

[Galadriel55]

That's a good one, HS! I thought it had a great ring to it as a poem, and it makes perfect sense when you know the answer.

No takers?

Well give us a chance to even check the site! Patience, please!

My first instinct here is Earendil. Not a perfect fit but gotta get it out of the way.

[Huinesoron]

My first thought is Osse, the Maia of the sea who at one point turned to the Dark before coming back. Except that doesn't really work with the second half... it could be a duet between Osse (first 2 verses) and Uinen (last 2), with the fire being the Kinslaying at Alqualonde.

After that I thought of Earendil, but I'm worried we're being distracted by the presence of the Sea at the beginning. Focussing on the later parts, how about Gondolin?

The sea is a part of me
And I am a part of the sea

"Remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."

Fear once ruled me
But I managed to overcome it, you see

The Gondolindrim sat the Sudden Flame out to avoid being found by Morgoth, but overcame that and rode to the Unnumbered Tears.

Darkness claimed me
For its own
My hope was lost
But they'll reap what they've sown

The Fall of Gondolin, of course, and the fact that Earendil came from Gondolin to ultimately bring about Morgoth's downfall.

Because through it all
My heart remained true
My will remained steadfast
And my patience was at its end

'Steadfast' could point at Voronwe the Faithful, who was a resident of Gondolin. Not sure about 'patience', unless we're back to the Unnumbered Tears again.

Great fire burned at that time
One that was easily distinguished

I mean... yes, it did.

My spirit might have left it all behind
But the flame in my heart wasn't extinguished

While the people of Gondolin (its 'spirit') have fled, they still carry the memory of it in their hearts.

hS

[Urwen]

Not Earendil, or Gondolin. It's a person, and the patience bit is something spoken in the book in regards to them.


P.S: You're right in that you shouldn't be focusing on the sea too much. It's more of an etymology thing.

[Huinesoron]

It'd be quite a dark answer, but Ar-Pharazon? He definitely gets impatient, and from his own perspective, he remains 'true' and 'faithful', 'overcoming fear' to assail the Undying Lands and make them 'reap what they sowed' in not granting Men access. He's also not exactly dead, hence the 'flame in my heart' part.

hS

[Urwen]

Nope, much earlier than that.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so: Great Fires of the First Age:

-The Kinslaying at Alqualonde (probably)
-The Sun
-The Battle of the Sudden Flame
-The Fall of Gondolin
-Possibly the War of Wrath (if it's referring to Ancalagon's death)

People whose names are associated with the sea:

-Earwen, wife of Finarfin
-Earendil
-...

I have to guess Earwen, but I don't think she works. That 'fear once ruled me' line doesn't fit anything I know about her. Also, she probably bends the focus too far back towards the actual Sea.

hS

[Urwen]

Nope. See, you're making a mistake of focusing on 'great fires'. :p

[Huinesoron]

Nope. See, you're making a mistake of focusing on 'great fires'. :p

Sooooo, I can't focus on the sea or the fires; that leaves... hearts? Darkness?

...

Feanor? He has the advantage of actually being dead, plus, y'know, 'Spirit of Fire'. And he was most certainly impatient.

hS

(Look, it was him or Joseph Conrad...)

[Urwen]

No, I said you shouldn't be focusing on 'great fires'. What I meant by that is that there are other fires too. 'Great fires' have significance for the world as a whole, while this particular fire has significance only to the person in question (and one of their kinsmen)


And not Feanor. I don't see how is his etymology related to the sea, or the ocean, in any way.



I am trying to help, but it's difficult to do without giving away the answer completely.

[Huinesoron]

I am trying to help, but it's difficult to do without giving away the answer completely.

Hey, no, this is good. Like Bilbo with Gollum's final riddle, I'm able to find lots of answers that mostly fit, but haven't yet come upon one which fits perfectly.

How about Nienor Niniel? 'Maid of Tears' has a salt-water connection to the sea, and her encounter with Glaurung would explain both 'fear once ruled' and 'darkness claimed'. She remained faithful to Turin under both names (though in different ways), and she was definitely impatient (the Silm doesn't have a precise quote, but the Narn might). This would make Glaurung the great fire, who at that time wasn't really bothering anyone other than the Children of Hurin when they went to hassle him.

hS

[Urwen]

Not Nienor, but you're getting closer.


(And before someone says it, no, not Turin or Lalaith either)

[Urwen]

Bump?

[Huinesoron]

Aha! Is it Aerin of Dor Lomin?

The sea is a part of me
And I am a part of the sea

I didn't know this, but the 'aer' in her name is a Sindarin word for 'ocean' (as in 'Belgaer').

Fear once ruled me
But I managed to overcome it, you see

Having been taken as a slave-wife, Aerin rebelled against Brodda to help Morwen.

Darkness claimed me
For its own
My hope was lost
But they'll reap what they've sown

Like I said, slave-wife. Brodda the Easterling was a follower of Ulfang the Black, which adds an extra layer to 'darkness'.

Because through it all
My heart remained true
My will remained steadfast
And my patience was at its end

I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), but the first three lines definitely apply, and the fourth seems not implausible.

Great fire burned at that time
One that was easily distinguished
My spirit might have left it all behind
But the flame in my heart wasn't extinguished

Aerin eventually died by burning herself alive after Turin killed Brodda, because... apparently the House of Hador just can't have nice things. As a bonus, her name is an anagram for Arien, the Maia of the Sun, who can be the 'flame in my heart'.

I have an actual good feeling about this one. :)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Hey, I think that might be it.

Aerin did burn herself alive and the house with her, because she wasn't going to be treqted kindly at all after Turin's visit and this was her final act of rebellion. And what you said about the House of Hador.

Aas for patience, I believe one of Turin's companions tells him during their escape from Dor Lomin not to mistake Aerin's patience for frailty, or some such.

Good catch!

[Urwen]

Aha! Is it Aerin of Dor Lomin?



I didn't know this, but the 'aer' in her name is a Sindarin word for 'ocean' (as in 'Belgaer').



Having been taken as a slave-wife, Aerin rebelled against Brodda to help Morwen.



Like I said, slave-wife. Brodda the Easterling was a follower of Ulfang the Black, which adds an extra layer to 'darkness'.



I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), but the first three lines definitely apply, and the fourth seems not implausible.



Aerin eventually died by burning herself alive after Turin killed Brodda, because... apparently the House of Hador just can't have nice things. As a bonus, her name is an anagram for Arien, the Maia of the Sun, who can be the 'flame in my heart'.

I have an actual good feeling about this one. :)

hS


That's exactly what I had in mind. You're up.

[Huinesoron]

Ugly they named us, the Red-Faced and his kin
Insulting our lands, our hair and our beards
Naming us Betrayer behind welcoming grins
Is it any wonder we turned out as they feared?

Faithful they named us, the Red and Gold together
The shield, the flame-brand, the wide open vale
Welcoming our people as kinfolk forever
Is it any wonder we were loyal without fail?

Good luck...! ;)

hS

[Urwen]

Sounds like two different groups of people, and the second group are Rohirrim.

[Huinesoron]

Kind of two different groups of people (depending on how broadly you want 'different' to apply), but not the Rohirrim. The two halves of the riddle are connected.

hS