Riddles in the Downs

[Rumil]

Absolutely perfect Pitchwife!

(I can almost hear Legate saying 'but you must explain every line' - and you most certainly have done). ;)

Agree the Old Man is such a mystery, and I can't remember him being discussed much on the Downs. Was he last of a hereditary line that were the 'wardens' of the Paths of the Dead? Or had he indeed been there himself since, presumably, Isildur's day in some sort of suspended animation due to an obscure subclause of The Curse?

Along, possibly, with The Mouth he seems to be the only human with a thousands-of-years lifespan. How does that work?

[Hakon]

Well with the Mouth maybe Sauron kind of gave him some kind of extended life. I mean if the one ring can extend your life like it did with Gollum then maybe Sauron can give it (extended life) sort of as a gift.

[Eönwë]

maybe Sauron can give it (extended life) sort of as a gift.

But in the context (and the context of the Arda in general), I suppose it should be viewed more as a curse than a gift.

[Pitchwife]

OK, what about this? :

Stone and water do I clasp
in my silver-veinéd grasp.
Green I grow on branches tall
and not idly do I fall:
when I drop, I'm eloquent
and tell that here one living went,
but I'm mute while on my stem -
guess and tell me what I am!

Much too plain, I'm afraid, but hope you'll like it nonetheless.

[Morsul the Dark]

Very good sir.

The Elven Brooch

[Pitchwife]

See? I knew it was too easy!:)

Correct, Morsul. Would you mind explaining the poem?

[Morsul the Dark]

OK, what about this? :

Stone and water do I clasp
in my silver-veinéd grasp.
Green I grow on branches tall
and not idly do I fall:
when I drop, I'm eloquent
and tell that here one living went,
but I'm mute while on my stem -
guess and tell me what I am!

Much too plain, I'm afraid, but hope you'll like it nonetheless.

the cloak is like camouflage hence stone and water
it's a silver brooch
third line...no idea
leaves of lothlorien do no idly fall
the brooch was dropped by pippin in order to lead aragorn to thm
mute...don't know
last line... take a shot

give me a bit to think of a riddle

[Eönwë]

third line...no idea
They are leaves.

[Pitchwife]

Filling in the gaps-
The brooches had the shape of green leaves veined with silver, and stone and water refers to the colour of the cloaks:
'Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lórien that we love.'
You got the point about Pippin dropping his as a message to Aragorn, but the leaf-brooch would have been mute (i.e. told Aragorn nothing) if it had remained on its stem (i.e. at Pippin's neck). As for guessing, you've obviously done that!:)

[Morsul the Dark]

They are leaves.
lol I know they're leaves but still that didn't knock me on the head.


I guard the hidden
in a place I don't fit in
Do not Disturb me
Or you'll be in my grasp see
When you have fled
the door, I'll crash on your head


Easy-peezy-Japaneesy

[Rumil]

Lovely riddle earlier Pitchwife,

now for Morsul's latest-

I guard the hidden
in a place I don't fit in - The Mines of Moria hidden behind the secret door
Do not Disturb me
Or you'll be in my grasp see - Nasty slimey tentacle-y grasp
When you have fled
the door, I'll crash on your head - And waste a couple of Holly trees just for good measure

So it must be The Watcher in the Water - yes?

Rumil

[Morsul the Dark]

Tada! go ahead Rumil!:)

[Rumil]

Ah, bit late for composition now,

will have a crack at a new one tomorrow (probably;))

Cheers,

R

[Hakon]

Rumil and Morsul you are the riddle masters of this site. You are like Gollum and Bilbo from their riddle battle.

[Rumil]

Hello again all,

I hope we can tempt Legate back again, then you'll see some riddling Hakon!

Meanwhile, here's my latest effort,

Shouldn't be too taxing, probably....

Born within a hidden fastness,
I've travelled far and wide,
Providing hope against the darkness,
Enemies on every side.

Many a master have I served,
The greater and the lesser too,
Given a new name, well deserved,
Trust in me and we'll win through.

Threatening, when it was right,
Or cutting through the enemy,
I'll not for the unrighteous fight,
For that's my point you see

Happy riddle-unravelling,:D

Rumil

[Erendis]

Just the result of my analysis:Anduril

[Rumil]

Hi Erendis,

'fraid not Anduril,

Cheers,

Rumil

[LadyBrooke]

I'm just guessing but is it Aragorn?

Born within a hidden fastness, - I'm not sure if he was born there but he was raised in Rivendell.

I've travelled far and wide, - he traveled all over Middle Earth

Providing hope against the darkness, - Estel means hope and his mother said she gave hope to M-E but kept none for herself

Enemies on every side. - not sure what this would mean

Many a master have I served, - He served Etchelion and Thengel at least just off the top of my head.

The greater and the lesser too, - Rohan was considered lesser than Gondor by many according to Faramir's words in Ithilen

Given a new name, well deserved, - how many names does he have? Too many at least.

(Trust in me and we'll win through.

Threatening, when it was right,
Or cutting through the enemy,
I'll not for the unrighteous fight,
For that's my point you see) - not sure about any that.

I'm probably wrong about it though.

[Morsul the Dark]

Hello again all,

I hope we can tempt Legate back again, then you'll see some riddling Hakon!

Meanwhile, here's my latest effort,

Shouldn't be too taxing, probably....

Born within a hidden fastness,
I've travelled far and wide,
Providing hope against the darkness,
Enemies on every side.

Many a master have I served,
The greater and the lesser too,
Given a new name, well deserved,
Trust in me and we'll win through.

Threatening, when it was right,
Or cutting through the enemy,
I'll not for the unrighteous fight,
For that's my point you see

Happy riddle-unravelling,:D

Rumil

hidden fastness could be Rivendell
of course he's travelled
He is the last King so he is the hope of Man
he's surrounded by enemies all the time.

the next two lines are bit tough....
Many a master have I served,
The greater and the lesser too,

He asks Frodo to trust him...
he's is called elendil by galadrial
He can be malicious when needed like scaring barnalbe... that name right the innkeeper...
and definatelt fight bad guys
and wouldn't fight for evil

Edit: Just relized...didn't say my answer :p
Aragorn

[Rumil]

Hi Morsul and LadyB,

nope, not Aragorn (my Heffalump trap successfully sprung, Bwa haha haha HA - as Phantom would put it:D)

Erendis was pretty close!

Rumil

[Annunfuiniel]

Born within a hidden fastness, -- forged in Gondolin
I've travelled far and wide, -- traveled from there to the Lonely Mountain, the Shire and Mount Doom, to name but few
Providing hope against the darkness, --well, helped in many a dark place (vaque, I know :) )
Enemies on every side. --the Battle of Five Armies; Weathertop; that tower where Frodo was held captive etc.

Many a master have I served, --guys in Gondolin?, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam
The greater and the lesser too, --see above
Given a new name, well deserved, --Sting; need explanation? :p
Trust in me and we'll win through. --and so it happened

Threatening, when it was right, --i.e. when baddies attacked, I guess
Or cutting through the enemy, --it cut through the webs of Shelob (edit: and the webmaker herself, of course), and orcs (and Nazgul? can't remember right now, but it could've cut through them too, no doubt)
I'll not for the unrighteous fight,
For that's my point you see --it glowed (it's point glowed?) if enemies were near, and probably couldn't be wielded by the enemies?

So, I'm pretty sure the answer is Sting; though I might be just too sleepy to see right. :D

[Eönwë]

Is it Gurthang?


x-ed. Ah, maybe 'tis so.

[Pitchwife]

Annun, I was about to post the same answer, but refreshed in time to see you beat me to it. Hope it's the right one!:)

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Annunfuiniel has it, excellent!

Only odds and ends to explain-

Providing hope against the darkness - glowing blue in presence of orcses and generally being useful in a tight spot

Given a new name, well deserved - named Sting after Bilbo's battle with the spiders in Mirkwood

Threatening, when it was right - when Bilbo and Frodo drew Sting to threaten Gollum (for the best of reasons naturally) and Sam at Cirith Ungol too!

'Couldn't be wielded by enemies' is what I was thinking

As you noticed I tried to make this one really ambiguous, but Annun and Erendis were like bloodhounds on a scent!

[Annunfuiniel]

Greatgreatgreat! :) I'm busy with work and festivities today, but hopefully have time tomorrow for some riddle-writing. Bear with me! :Merisu:

~Annu(n)

[Erendis]

Erendis was pretty close!

Rumil

If that's close,thanks for the compliment,Rumil!:Merisu:
I have hell of a nose!-no,really,it ts a cute french one-;)

[Pitchwife]

*bump*

[Morsul the Dark]

Annunfuiniel and I were chatting on Facebook She said I could take the thread I Swear!

sooo here goes;

I am the Drummer
I am the Carrier
I am the Sleeper
I am the Fattest
I am one of Fourteen

[Annunfuiniel]

Regrettably I have no time for riddles right now, so Morsul has my permission to take the thread. So my apologies, and please do carry on! :)

[Eönwë]

I believe 'tis Bombur

[Morsul the Dark]

wasn't it so ridiculously difficult:p

you got it!

(It was all I could think of in interest of continuing the thread)

[Eönwë]

He is also the walrus ;)

Anyway, ok, I'll take at stab at it. Here's an easy one:

From the hands of the maker
To upon a master's head
Used to hurt the evil foes
The cause of much bloodshed.

[Hakon]

Gurthang

[Eönwë]

Sorry Hakon, but no, it's not Gurthang.

[Pitchwife]

Silmaril.

From the hands of the maker - Feanor's;
To upon a master's head - in Morgoth's crown;
Used to hurt the evil foes - like Carcharoth;
The cause of much bloodshed. - Feanor's oath, kinslaying and the War of the Jewels.

[Eönwë]

You have it Pitchwife. And with exactly the things I had in mind as well.

Your turn, go on and make a riddle.

[Pitchwife]

Well, after my death scene in Mnemi's game this was pretty obvious!:D

I've got an idea for a new riddle, but I'm a slow rhymer and need to look up some details. Give me a day or two.

[Pitchwife]

Just noticed my idea has been done before:(. It's really hard to come up with something new for these threads!
I'll try to think of something different, but don't know how long it's going to take me. If anybody has an idea in the meantime, go ahead!

[Morsul the Dark]

bump

[Pitchwife]

Thanks for your patience! Here's an easy one again:

Relics of forgotten times,
we sit and watch the road that climbs
to haunted places filled with dread,
our eyes hollow, dark and dead.

[Rumil]

Hi Pitchwife,

glad to see you back at Riddles,

Relics of forgotten times, ---- Dark Years
we sit and watch the road that climbs ----- up to Dunharrow
to haunted places filled with dread, ---- the first steps on the Paths of the Dead
our eyes hollow, dark and dead. ------ since we're statues

So I reckon its the Pukel-Men statues.

Is it right?

[Pitchwife]

Of course it's right!:) (I really need to make the next one harder... but you guys surpass me *sigh*)
As for the eyes, LotR Book V The Muster of Rohan:
Some in the waring of the years had lost all features save the dark holes of their eyes
Looking forward to yours!

[Rumil]

Hi Pitchwife,

Aha, nice riddle, I'd forgotten the hollow eyes bit!

Will now have to think up the next one, er, soon, honest.....

[Rumil]

Well here goes-

What I wanted should be mine,
thwarted first and second time.
Third time lucky's what they say,
but shadows grew from that bright day.

Twice denied,
but now my pride,
was satisfied.
I should have cried.

Victory turned into dust.
First a boom and then a bust.
Taken captive, basely caught,
for good or ill I stood and fought.

Twice denied, then I succeed,
Now defied and twice bereaved
Still not all's bad that hardship sends,
I've lost it all but made some friends.

Happy riddle-unravelling :)

[Rumil]

Anyone want to take a wild guess?

[Pitchwife]

Oh well - is it Maglor?

What I wanted should be mine,
thwarted first and second time.
Third time lucky's what they say,
but shadows grew from that bright day.

Twice denied,
but now my pride,
was satisfied.
I should have cried.
Three attempts to take a Silmaril by force:
1. Attack on Doriath, Dior and Nimloth slain, but Elwing escaped with the Silmaril;
2. Attack on Sirion's Mouths, but Elwing escaped with the Silmaril yet again!;
3. Attack on Eönwe's camp by Maglor and Maedhros after Morgoth was vanquished; they escaped with two Silmarils, but -

Victory turned into dust.
First a boom and then a bust.
the stones burnt their hands, so they saw that they had lost their right to them and the Oath was void.
Taken captive, basely caught,
for good or ill I stood and fought.
The only part I can't quite make fit. They stood and were ready to fight when they were caught in the act, but at Eönwe's orders they were neither slain nor taken captive but went free.

Twice denied, then I succeed,
Now defied and twice bereaved
Twice bereaved: of his last surviving brother, Maedhros, who took his own life, and of the Silmarils too.

Still not all's bad that hardship sends,
I've lost it all but made some friends.
Elros and Elrond; Maglor sort of fostered them after they'd been taken captive at Sirion's Mouths, and improbably liking grew between them.

Is that it?

[Rumil]

Hi Pitchwife,

glad to see somebody is around ;)

wow, really nice interpretation,

but no, not Maglor!

I'm hoping this one will be tricksy, but who can say?

[Pitchwife]

Darn - I really liked my answer! Now I'm completely clueless.
Anyway, no matter what the answer may be, it's a lovely poem!

[Rumil]

Cheers PW,

:)

is it time for clues yet?

[skip spence]

I'm hoping this one will be tricksy, but who can say?
O yes precious, we thinks it tricksy too. The best I could come up with was Maedros (basely caught by Morgoth, twice bereaved (of kingship and Silmarils) etc etc) but that can't be right given Pitchwife's guess.

The last two lines might be a key:
Still not all's bad that hardship sends,
I've lost it all but made some friends
There must be some redeeming moment for this character, don't you think? Hm...

Great riddle, Rumil!

[Morsul the Dark]

What I wanted should be mine,-Love
thwarted first and second time.-
Third time lucky's what they say,
but shadows grew from that bright day.

Twice denied,
but now my pride,
was satisfied.
I should have cried.

Victory turned into dust.
First a boom and then a bust.
Taken captive, basely caught,
for good or ill I stood and fought.0 This entire bit could be about osgilioth

Twice denied, then I succeed,- finally denetor loves him
Now defied and twice bereaved- they thought he was dead
Still not all's bad that hardship sends,
I've lost it all but made some friends.

Faramir?

[Rumil]

Hi Skip and Morsul,

nope, not Maedhros

nor Faramir,

On the cold-warm-hot scale everyone's really chilly at the mo ;)

Guess on all!

[Hakon]

Part of the riddle seems to fit Hurin but I doubt it is him.

[Rumil]

Hi Hakon,


you're entirely right,




It's not Hurin

;)

R

[Pitchwife]

Not quite sure, but - King Eärnur of Gondor? Thrice challenged by the Witch King, twice denied his desire to 'stand and fight' (first by his horse, then by his Steward), third time he rode to Minas Morgul but was (presumably) taken captive and tormented to death -> end of royal line in Gondor. But I'm at a loss to explain 'twice bereaved' and what friends he made in the process.

[Rumil]

Hi Pitchwife,

I like it,


but nope, not Earnur.

Guess on!

[Eönwë]

For some reason I'm feeling Feanor, I don't know why.

[Rumil]

Hi Eonwe,

Feanor it is not,

Guess on!

[Rumil]

Oh, OK Ladies and Gents,

some clues seem to be be called for-

You will not find the answer within the Silmarillion

- enough for now?

[Pitchwife]

Argh! Can it be Lobelia Sackville-Baggins?

What I wanted should be mine, - Bag-End
thwarted first and second time.
- first when Bilbo came back from his journey with the dwarves, second when he left Bag-End to Frodo;
Third time lucky's what they say,
- at last, after sixty years of waiting, Frodo sold it to her and Lotho when he went on the quest;
but shadows grew from that bright day.
- they didn't enjoy their property very long before Sharkey & his ruffians took over.

Twice denied,
but now my pride,
was satisfied.
I should have cried. - see above.

Victory turned into dust.
First a boom and then a bust.
Taken captive, basely caught,
for good or ill I stood and fought.
- she gave Sharkey's men a taste of her umbrella and got busted for it.

Twice denied, then I succeed,
Now defied and twice bereaved
- not only did she give up Bag-End again, but she had lost her son (killed by Wormtongue) and husband (died before).
Still not all's bad that hardship sends,
I've lost it all but made some friends.
- she was reconciled with Frodo and became quite popular for her resistance to the ruffians (also because of her charitable testament).

[Rumil]

WE HAVE A WINNER :):)

Excellent Pitchwife!!

Yes indeed crotchety old Lobelia Sackville-Baggins herself. I was really chuckling when people proposed uber-dramatic characters like Feanor etc.

Excellent job explaining it too.

Out of curiosity, how did you work it out? I thought this one was a real stinker!!

All yours,

R

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, that was really good. Well done! And really really nice riddle :) (A pity I haven't checked the thread earlier, it would be fun to think of it.)

How come that people have been coming up with so good questions lately? :)

[Rumil]

Well we have been trying to keep up the standards in your absence Legate!;)

I think you will have some serious competition now!

Great to see you back around the Downs a bit more

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well we have been trying to keep up the standards in your absence Legate!;)

I think you will have some serious competition now!

Good to see that, that's the way it's supposed to work! :) We need to raise new champions! (Hey... what about some Tolkien-related quiz show? Like "Jeopardy!" or something... hmm...)

[Pitchwife]

Thanks a lot!:) This was a real stinker, very good indeed.
How did I work it out? After you said the answer wasn't in the Silmarillion, I guessed it would probably be LotR, and while I was going through the characters trying who might fit suddenly something went bing! in my head. Where the high and mighty fail, the small and lowly may provide the solution... or something like that.

Now I've got to think of a new one again. I can hear Morsul bumping already...

[Rumil]

Hi Pitchwife,

Nice one, looking forward to your next riddle.

I thought I might have given it away by the title of the post, but on checking it was Otho that said-

Spoons! Fiddlesticks!

:)

[Pitchwife]

What? No bumpers yet? Thanks for your patience! And blame Werewolf for distracting me.
Now, after all those rhymed riddles, how about some alliteration? Tolkien would have approved, I think.

Read me this riddle: who rides down
the running road on a rocking horse
with herd of ponies hollow-bellied,
sturdy steeds stuffed with riders?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Splendid riddle! I like it a lot.

Hey hey hey, what about Gandalf? The Erebor company.

[Pitchwife]

Not Gandalf, sorry.

[Morsul the Dark]

Fairly easy Bilbo
On a barrel in a running river with the dwarves in the barrels

[Pitchwife]

Yep! Morsul's got it! And hey - you just beat The Riddlemaster of Amon Lanc (although he was close in a way)!
Looking forward to yours.

[Morsul the Dark]

The unnamed Brother of Three
The Pale Light in the Darkness
From the thieves I was set Free
Older than an age
Can you guess, we shall see

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What about the Sting?

Thieves = trolls, other brothers = Glamdring and Orcrist, they have names (and famous ones), in contrary to this one. It's apparently quite old, and it shines in the dark, of course.

[Morsul the Dark]

Of course too easy sir you may continue

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, so here is something from me.

I'm just the second on His mind
He thought of Other more than of me

I'm just the second on His mind
Although for me He meant more than She

Me and Him, so alike We
Touch the same iron, touch the same stone

We never speak, We never meet
What tells you who We are? Our hands alone.

Unnecessary to say, along with the correct answer to the riddle, I would like to have also the explanation of the various parts of the riddle. (Don't worry, I am quite convinced that if you have the right answer, you would understand the individual parts of the riddle.)

[The Might]

Just spent half an hour trying to come up with an answer and nothing so far... you and your riddles, Legate! :mad:

Hopefully, I'll have a stroke of brilliance soon. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just spent half an hour trying to come up with an answer and nothing so far... you and your riddles, Legate! :mad:

Erm, sorry... it's Morsul's fault! *points*

Well, but seriously, it's not that hard, I believe. :) I can always give a hint if need be, but I think it'd be fine even without it.

[Morsul the Dark]

Isildur and Aragorn

"He" could be Elrond thinks not much of him especially after keeping the ring.

"He" though of Arwen more than Aragorn??:confused:

both had anduril/narsil
Stone is the one that's got me....

and of course they never met or spoke
But their healing hands would reveal them as kings...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ha! Good, Morsul, very good, you are on the right track. But you are not completely correct. On the right track, but you see yourself that your theories have gaps. But keep it up, I think it's not that far to make the complete picture from here.

[Mnemosyne]

Question: is the "She" in the riddle meant to be grammatically equivalent with He (i.e., He meant more for me than She did?)

Or ought it to be "her," but it was changed for the sake of rhyme? (i.e., He meant more for me than he did for Her)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, it is just "He meant more for me than She (did)". :)

[Mnemosyne]

Yes, it is just "He meant more for me than She (did)". :)

Spoken like a non-native speaker who actually understands our grammar more than we do. :)

[Morsul the Dark]

I'm so convinced that Faramir is one of the answers considering the first two sets of lines fit so perfectly and would refer to his father... but I can't think of how that would work with anyone else.

Then it could be Elendil and Aragorn basically the same reasons as isildur but with the added benefit of he brought the palantir and Aragorn used it(Touched same Stone) but I don't know if Elendil had a disapproving friend and or father....

[Mnemosyne]

I've got the last couplet figured out... will need some Quality Canon time to get it down to specifics...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, this far no correct answer, but let's see what you still come up with...

[Pitchwife]

Do all the I's and He's actually refer to the same respective person? I.e. are all the verses spoken by the same person, and is it always the same He?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, there is just one "I" (the narrator), one "He" and one "Other" and one "She". "We" are "I" and "He" together, and these two especially are the main question whose answer I want you to find (though as I said, I would like to hear all - it's not hard at all once you know who "I" and "He" are).

(Reposting so that we have it on the same page and don't need to look far back.)

I'm just the second on His mind
He thought of Other more than of me

I'm just the second on His mind
Although for me He meant more than She

Me and Him, so alike We
Touch the same iron, touch the same stone

We never speak, We never meet
What tells you who We are? Our hands alone.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Come on, people, is it really so scary to try to answer my riddles? :D This one is really not that hard, it's not that the answer would be "Aredhel and Borondir's grandfather" or anything like that. It's easy.

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

still pondering I'm sad to say.

I'm obviously out of practice with your twisted thinking ;),

too many ideas, none of which entirely fit!

[Pitchwife]

Same here. I've got several ideas that would fit part of the riddle, but none that fits all, and most of them founder on the cliff of the last two verses (especially the 'never speek, never meet' thing).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Same here. I've got several ideas that would fit part of the riddle, but none that fits all, and most of them founder on the cliff of the last two verses (especially the 'never speek, never meet' thing).

Okay, be careful at least with the "never speak". It is true, but I can imagine that people can easily forget that it is so, or make a mistake. But if you have something that you think almost fits, better ask. Though I think if you knew the right answer, you would know that it is the right one - at least it should not be a problem to think of what all the parts refer to, once you had it.

[Rumil]

Hmm Legate,

does 'never speak, never meet' mean just 'are never seen speaking or meeting in the books' or 'never ever spoke or met'?

For example there are some characters that you can infer must have spoken together in the past (or would do so in the future) but don't have an on-page conversation. Would they count?

Still stumped!!!

[Morsul the Dark]

Hmm Legate,

does 'never speak, never meet' mean just 'are never seen speaking or meeting in the books' or 'never ever spoke or met'?

For example there are some characters that you can infer must have spoken together in the past (or would do so in the future) but don't have an on-page conversation. Would they count?

Still stumped!!!

I was thinking the same thing...

I mean Boromir and Faramir REALLY fit well but they obviously met... but we never see them speak

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh no, no. Of course if it's clear that some characters have spoken to each other, like that Boromir-Faramir example, of course I would count it as if those two DID speak to each other. Use your common sense, there's no bluff in the riddle that would deny common logic. The two I have in mind really didn't, neither in the books nor any other time, only there is one subtle "but" in the "never speak". But that's just in case that everything else would fit and this one seemed a bit unfitting to you. But overall, no, Me and He never met and never spoke to each other.

[Mnemosyne]

I'm currently thinking something involving Aragorn, Arvedui, and Malbeth, but it works better if "we" equals "me" and "other" and I can't quite figure out how "she" would fit in (the very fact that there's a specific woman involved makes this a lot harder!).

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

OK then, I'll start eliminating my possiblities, probably wrong but...

Aragorn is 'I', Sauron is Withnail, no, sorry, 'He', The One Ring is 'Other', Arwen is 'She'

I'm just the second on His mind - Sauron is very interested in Aragorn
He thought of Other more than of me - but more preoccupied by the Ring

I'm just the second on His mind - especially after the Palantir-ing
Although for me He meant more than She - Tricksy - Sauron meant more than Arwen? Certainly a more immediate concern, but rather un-gallant, no?

Me and Him, so alike We - In a rather not-very-alike way, but I suppose both are great and effective leaders
Touch the same iron, touch the same stone - both touched Anduril, stone, hmm, possibly somewhere in Minas Morgul???

We never speak, We never meet - Yup, (Palantir doesn't count)
What tells you who We are? Our hands alone. - Both have distinctive hands - Sauron has but nine fingers, Aragorn has the hands of a healer.

Not sure I'm convincing myself here!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But very right so, Rumil! Well done!

You have also correctly intepreted the particularities of the riddle.

Although for me He meant more than She - Tricksy - Sauron meant more than Arwen? Certainly a more immediate concern, but rather un-gallant, no?
Perhaps put in an un-gallant way :) but indeed, Sauron was Aragorn's deeper concern in the sense that he could have dropped his vocation and lived somewhere in peace in Rivendell, if he wanted, but he chose not to (I was thinking in the immediate context of Galadriel's "test of minds" and also Aragorn's half a century-long journeys in the Wilderness). Although, of course, even behind his conflict with the Enemy there was the background of doing this for the sake of Arwen, I am far from disvaluing Aragorn's motives.

Me and Him, so alike We - In a rather not-very-alike way, but I suppose both are great and effective leaders
Yes, well, this was mostly just an ouverture to the following statements, though I said it also because I think I recall somebody (Gandalf? Probably) said somewhere (like by the end of TT?) that these two are sort of alike (I don't recall the context properly, though. If anybody finds it, you can get two insubstantional points more :D ).

Touch the same iron, touch the same stone - both touched Anduril, stone, hmm, possibly somewhere in Minas Morgul???
The iron was indeed referring to the Sword that was Broken, as for the stone, what I actually had in mind was not the very same particular stone, but the Palantíri - which are of course technically made of the same stone, or kind of stone.

We never speak, We never meet - Yup, (Palantir doesn't count)
Exactly. Indeed that was the possible problem I was referring to, as I was afraid that people could just say "nah, they talked via Palantír", while in fact they didn't (you cannot really talk via Palantír).

And the distinctive hands, perfectly correct. I must actually say that it was the part of the riddle I myself liked the most, because it seems funny to me in some way. Not sure why, it's just wonderful to think of it like that.

Well, anyway! Your turn, Rumil, you definitely deserve it!

[Pitchwife]

Applause, applause - both to Legate for the riddle and Rumil for the solution! I had a hunch that Sauron might be one of the two (because of the nine fingers), but I'd never have guessed the rest. Very nice!

[Rumil]

Wow,

I didn't think I had that one right at all!

Great riddle Legate,

I was trying to fit all the people with same types of unusual hands - Sauron/Frodo, Beren/that one-armed elf, Hands of a King, ringbearers etc etc! Was fairly sure that Sauron should be in there somewhere as he doesn't get out much by the 3rd Age.

Stone - Palantiri in general, should have spotted that.

Hmm, well, I'd better put my thinking cap on for the next one.......

[Mnemosyne]

HOLY ILLAMATAR! :eek: Well done!

[Rumil]

Okay,

just a quick one as I didn't have anything in reserve. Shouldn't prove outrageously difficult (with apologies to The Prodigy...;))


I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter.

At gates of doom I saw too soon,
The slaughter and disaster.

White from blue, no minstrel, true.
Torchbearer and light caster.

Ninth in line, renown is mine,
But student beats the master.

Guess on!

[Morsul the Dark]

Gandalf?

I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter.- Wielder of Fire plus seeing a balrog makes you angry

At gates of doom I saw too soon,- he saw the balrog first
The slaughter and disaster.

White from blue, no minstrel, true.- turned into gandalf the white from grey(Though the books describe his cloak as more blue
Torchbearer and light caster.- makes light with his staff

Ninth in line, renown is mine,- of course he was last to face the balrog
But student beats the master.- he was saruman's student and beats the witchking master of the wraiths?

EDIT: by the by talking via palantir is the reason I never put up Sauron :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

EDIT: by the by talking via palantir is the reason I never put up Sauron :p

See? That's exactly why I wrote about the possible problem there :) I know people might not be aware of it or forget it, but Palantíri could never be used to talk. You can only see through them. The "cool guys" might have used a sort of "telepathy" with that, but not real talking.

[Rumil]

Evening all,

hi Morsul,

sort of seems like Gandalf doesn't it, but no, not Gandalf I'm afraid,

;)

Guess on!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm, well, maybe I could mention my original thought, then... I thought about Gwindor of Nargothrond, though I am not very sure how he would get together especially with the second half of the riddle, unless we got very, very metaphorical.

[Rumil]

:cool:

Hi Legate,

nope, not Gwindor,

When you get the answer it will not need much in the way of metaphorical twisting !

Cheers,

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hopefully. By the way, I hope we are talking book characters here. From the beginning I cannot get rid of the image of that Olympic-Torch Carrier Orc in Helm's Deep from the TT movie :D

[Rumil]

What a foul calumny Legate!!! :eek:

Certainly not a PJ-ism, the answer will be found in the books for sure.

:D

R

[Morsul the Dark]

Face-Palm!

This is probably wrong but who know who fits quite nicely? SAM

Samwise Gamgee

except the fire bit....

He saw the shire being destroyed in the mirror

He is "no minstrel" he claims but makes the troll song and the verse for Gandalf's fireworkds... also the light of galadriel.

And overall Sauron, Isildur, Deagel, Smeagal, Bilbo, Frodo, Bombadil, ? , Samwise

9th bearer?
Renowned as one of the heroes.

He becomes mayor(Master)?

[Rumil]

Hi Morsul,

as Cunning as a fox that's Research Fellow in Cunning at Oxford Brookes...


ie not quite cunning enough my friend!


The answer is not one of the major characters....

[Morsul the Dark]

Hmmm....

I wonder if Denethor counts as a major Character....

Fire Starter, obvious
Saw Disaster in the Palantir that's why he gave up (too soon)

Certainly a "carried the torch" help the place of leader?
(or literally carried a torch to the pyre)

Ninth steward
Wants the glory of Gondor

[Rumil]

Hi Morsul,

no no no, Ninth Steward! more like 26th!

Quite a lot more minor than Denethor.....

Probably the second half will help you to find the answer more than the first half, but then you should be able to go back and explain it all. In correct Legate-ite fashion.

Happy Riddling

[Mnemosyne]

Celebrimbor?

I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter.

From the house of Feanor...

At gates of doom I saw too soon,
The slaughter and disaster.

Was involved with the early wars of the First Age (certainly the Dagor Bragollach) but repudiated his father (Curufin) and uncle (Celegorm) when they were trying to manipulate the throne out from Finrod.

Also note that as soon as Sauron claimed the One Celebrimbor figured him out and realized they were doomed.

Gates of Doom could also refer (if they don't refer to Angband) to the gates of Moria, which were shut after Sauron was found out.

White from blue, no minstrel, true.
Torchbearer and light caster.

Kind of stumped on this one, though one theory does exist that Celebrimbor made the luminescent Elessar.

Also notice the preponderance of red, white, and blue imagery, which lines up with the gemstones of the Three Elven Rings.

Ninth in line, renown is mine,
But student beats the master.

Ninth in the House of Feanor (after Feanor himself and his seven sons).

Renowned for making the Rings of Power.

But his student, Sauron, ended up destroying him.



Not my best, especially since I do not have my Silm with me, but that last line fits so well that I think I've still got the answer even if my supporting arguments are kind of weak.

[Rumil]

Hi Mnem,

sorry, not Celebrimbor, though you did get one thing right.....

;)

Rumil

[skip spence]

Tricksy again...

Hm. A Firestarter. Unless this is metaphorical, there aren't that many cases of fires I can think of. Minas Tirith was set on fire during the siege, and there's the pyre of Denethor. Smaug lit up Laketown and his daddy Glaurung burned a few places down I presume. Gandalf held the ring of fire and played with it occationally. The Orcs made a fire in Moria. Ghash! What else?

Then there's the gates of doom. I also thought of Gwindor and the gates of Angband here. The gates could also be the Morannon I suppose. I think the slaughter and disaster point to a first age event though, since this is we find most of the gore.

Angry too and a torch-bearer... Who in the name of Angband is angry? Tolkien's good guys aren't usually disposed to anger, are they? Feanor is angry and a metaphorical firestarter, and seems to fit some of the lines, but not all.

Ninth in line too eh? Not one of the fellowship surely, nor one of the Nazgul. Theoden was the ninth king of his line unless I'm mistaken, but he's not the one.

White from Blue... Mnemosyne mentioned the Elven Rings. There's also the White Mountains and the Blue Mountains. Gandalf once again is connected with those colours.

Bah! I give up for the time being.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Okay, actually, skip made me think of it!

What about Gloin???

I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter - he and his brother were the best in making fire, but also struggled during it

At gates of doom I saw too soon,
The slaughter and disaster. - not sure, could be anything, the gates of the Goblin-town, or perhaps most likely Erebor, or even in Moria if he was there? I don't have the patience to check now :)

White from blue, no minstrel, true - well, from Blue Mountains (that was what made me think) and, the Dwarves were all playing some instruments, though I think his instrument is not mentioned. He had white beard. And white cloak.
Torchbearer and light caster.- I guess this just refers to the fire again, or maybe something else... aaah, was he the one to accompany Bilbo inside the Mountain with the light? Might be!

Ninth in line, renown is mine,- he came as the ninth of all the Dwarves! You know, Balin, Dwalin... etc :D And of course he is the only one who appears in FotR.
But student beats the master.- Maybe that's referrence to his son, Gimli, who ultimately "beat" him in significance.

[Rumil]

Ahaaaa!


Legate got it. The answer is indeed Gloin. ;);)

Pretty good on the explanations but a couple of things to clear up.

Angry - as he fought with Oin when trying to light the fire in the rain.

White party hood, ninth to arrive at Bag End

No instrument mentioned for Gloin

Yep Gloin brought the torches for Bilbo

And of course Gimli's dad!!

Oh, the Gates of Doom etc- the Battle of Azanulbizar (or Nanduhirion if you prefer) where the dwarves beat Azog's orcs, but only at a terribly high price. Gloin fought there even though he was just 19 (very young for a dwarf).

All yours!!!

[skip spence]

Damn, you are good, Legate! Glad to be of some assistance but it was way over my head.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thank you, skip, well, it was the blue = Blue Mountains thing you said that really made me think of Dwarves, and then I thought "ninth in line" - well, there are not that many groups of people of which you could be ninth in line, are they? And "angry firestarter" made it clear then.

Anyway... so let's see about this.

Blind man and deaf man
standing at dusk.
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

First of them second.
Second's - third house.
Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

Rich man and poor man,
brink of the day.
Enemy and a son
not far away.

Enjoy :)

[Rumil]

Oho,

very cryptic Legate,

nothing comes to mind immediately, will have to do some serious pondering!

Cheers,

R

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, it is slightly cryptic (okay, before somebody protests, read: more cryptic than usual from me :D ), but don't let that discourage you. Besides, sharpening your mind is an useful thing to do, surely the Riddle-masters Bilbo and Gollum would agree :)

[Morsul the Dark]

this riddle screams out Wormtounge and Theoden

Theoden would be deaf to everything that's going on due to Wormtounge's whispering
Wormtounge blinded by love for eowyn
Dark Dunharrow

Middle means something-:p

Rich man poor man,-um duh?
Theodred would be Theoden's son, and Grima's enemy

whether or not that's right I don't know

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Alas, not the right answer. :) But nice try, good to see somebody was brave enough and not scared away at first sight :)

[Morsul the Dark]

Weathertop and Baradur

Blind man and deaf man-Weathertop-lost its palantir(Blind) Baradur, the eye(deaf)
standing at dusk. Weathortop in west.
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

First of them second.
Second's - third house.- Bardur is Sauron's third home?
Blindness and deafness,- reiterating the above
forest and garth.- Old Forest near weathertop, garth(enclosed land) Mordor

Rich man and poor man,
brink of the day. Baradur in the East
Enemy and a son
not far away. Enemy could be barrow-wight, and Aragorn is nearby baradur

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Again, nice try and brave approach, and some really quite inventive interpretations of some verses, but no. I think you sense yourself that in the case you make, the parts of the riddle would be a little too... random.

All the parts of the riddle convey something quite essential and important about "blind man and deaf man", something that is, hmm, "typical" for them.

[Pitchwife]

Húrin and Hardang (or whatever his final name was - the Halad of Brethil, aka Mr "Give-the-old-carl-a-stool") ?
Don't have War of the Jewels at hand to check all the details, but off the top of my head -

Blind man and deaf man
Húrin - blind to the shadow he brought with him, the Halad - deaf to Manthor's wiser counsel;

First of them second.
Second's - third house.
Húrin from the Second House of the Edain, the Halad of the Third;

forest and garth
the Forest of Brethil and the enclosure of Obel Halad;

Rich man and poor man
When they first met, the Halad was a wealthy ruler, Húrin a poor wanderer; but at the moot, Húrin gained the support of the people (= became the rich man, metaphorically), while the Halad lost it (and subsequently his life);

Enemy and a son
not far away.
This is what first made me think of Húrin: both his son, Túrin, and the son's enemy, Glaurung, died 'not far away' from the scene of this tale.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That was a very, very, very good attempt and very inventive interpretation, which would have surely been correct, had the answer for my riddle been what you think ;)

Alas, it is not. Nice try, but believe me when I say that the answer is not that obscure :)

[Rumil]

Well after PW's cracking attempt, not sure this is quite so erudite! Starting from the literal anyway....


Blind man and deaf man

- Frodo (temporarily blinded by lightning flash) and Sam (having difficulty hearing Frodo) ('man' used in general style)

standing at dusk.

- on the Emyn Muil

Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

- Ringbearer/ Gent & Ringbearer's mate/ Gardner

First of them second.

- Sam (second-in-command) tries the climb down first but Frodo insists he comes back, then tries the climb himself

Second's - third house.

- If 'second' is now Frodo, then he was from the third branch of the Bagginses -descended from Largo not Mungo or Ponto. Alternatively he had left his third house (Crickhollow, preceeded by Bag End and Brandy Hall)

Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

- Frodo likes the forest, Sam prefers his garden?

Rich man and poor man,

- Frodo rich, Sam poor

brink of the day.

- before daybreak certainly

Enemy and a son
not far away.

- Gollum is the enemy not far away, and the next character met is Faramir, Son of Denethor. (Though Gollum was someone's son once!)

Hmm, probably not!

[Morsul the Dark]

Thank you, skip, well, it was the blue = Blue Mountains thing you said that really made me think of Dwarves, and then I thought "ninth in line" - well, there are not that many groups of people of which you could be ninth in line, are they? And "angry firestarter" made it clear then.

Anyway... so let's see about this.

Blind man and deaf man
standing at dusk.
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

First of them second.
Second's - third house.
Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

Rich man and poor man,
brink of the day.
Enemy and a son
not far away.

Enjoy :)

just reposting to new page for now still thinking

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Rumil, your attempt is nice, inventive, and wrong :D But I daresay it looks positive, I think somebody could strike upon the correct answer soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A hint: the riddle is not saying plain facts and is using some poetic licence, but still, it's FAR less metaphorical than probably most of you think ;)

[Morsul the Dark]

A hint: the riddle is not saying plain facts and is using some poetic licence, but still, it's FAR less metaphorical than probably most of you think ;)

I'm just seriously out of ideas:eek:

[Morsul the Dark]

I got it!

Someone and someone else?:p

*this Post equals BUMP*

[Beregond]

I'm going to pop in from obscurity to advance Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw as the "blind man" and "deaf man"... I can't make sense of the rest. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, nothing like that. The former guess of Rumil with Emyn Muil, like I said earlier, was pretty good as for methods used. You can look at it. He even interpretated some parts of the riddle correctly, just assigned them to the wrong targets.

[Morsul the Dark]

Bilbo and Gandalf?

Stealing most of rumi'l explanationns the lightning flash comes fromgandalf in the cave...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That would be cool, alas not.

Okay! Time for BIGGER hints, since obviously not even my statement "take it less metaphorically and more literally" did not help anybody to think of the right answer!

I will therefore point out the parts which Rumil got right in his answer, as he got the closest of all:

First of them second.

- Sam (second-in-command) tries the climb down first but Frodo insists he comes back, then tries the climb himself

The interpretation of "second in command" is indeed correct here. Of course it does not need to mean that the person in the riddle is second in command to the other person in the riddle. The person can be second in command somewhere else, to somebody else...

Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

- Frodo likes the forest, Sam prefers his garden?

Once again, basically the interpretation (but not the two targets mentioned) is correct here - of course we are talking that there is some relation between person 1 and forest and person 2 and garden, indeed.

Also, there is something pretty correct in Rumil's interpretation of the "rich man and poor man" part...

It is not that hard. Just put two and two together. If having the stuff organised better could help you, I would advise doing something like writing down two columns, one labeled "blind man" and the other "deaf man" (the two never change their place in the riddle, in every verse the first part refers to the former and the second to the latter - and in the "first-second" part, of course "first" is the "blind man" and "second" is the "deaf man") and noting there the attributes given to the two. Then just try to think of some good picks for which the attributes would fit. Maybe it would be more inspiring to try to think of them separately, like "okay, so blind man could be this, this or this..." and then comparing the two together and trying to find some relation. Something might light up in your mind. And then also bear in mind the things they have in common here: like "standing in dusk".

[Shards of Narsil]

Frodo and the Gaffer?

Earlier, someone had guessed Frodo as the blindman, which I can't totaly make fit, but for the Gaffer, was he not hard of hearing?

Standing at dusk at Bag End when Frodo was leaving the Shire and the Black Rider approached the Gaffer inquiring about Frodo.

First of them second - the Gaffer was first in terms of age, but second to Frodo in that he was an employee.

Second's third house - wasn't his address #3 Bagshot Row.

Forest and garth - Frodo like the forest, the Gaffer like the garden.

Rich man - Frodo, poor man - Gaffer.

Brink of day - the day after Frodo, Sam and Pippin left Bag End.

Enemy - the Black Rider
Son - Sam
both not far away.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ha! Brilliant! Very close, Shards, very close! Almost correct! Almost! But you figured out some pretty particular aspects of the riddle, very, very well done!!!

But indeed, something does not fit here, for instance, was Frodo blind? The guess before counted with one particular moment, where Frodo was "blinded" for a while, but it was by no means any trait that would be more permanent. And the "first of them second" - I am not sure if I understood right what you are trying to say, but "First" means the same person who is blind, rich etc. And so this person is for some reason also second. Somehow. Somewhere. In something.

But really, you managed to guess quite a lot of the riddle, you deserve credit for that - try to think to make it fit, I'm sure you will. Still I need the correct answer about who the "blind man" and "deaf man" are.

[Rumil]

Shards of Narsil did a great job, if I'm right of course!

Blind man and deaf man
standing at dusk. - Nazgul (effectively blind) and Gaffer (pretty deaf)
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks? - Legate of Amon Lanc ;) and Gardner to the Gentry

First of them second. - This particular Nazgul is Khamul, 2ic of the lot

Second's - third house. -Hmmm, tricky, we're talking about the Gaffer here yes? OK possible interpretations - they are at Bag End, that will become Gaffer's third house (first in Tighfield, second Bagshot Row, does he moves in with Sam and Rosie?). Maybe Gaffer's third house - Tighfield- somewhere in Hobbiton (as Holman would have been in Bagshot Row at first), Bagshot Row. Or Tighfield, Bagshot Row, New Row/Sharkey's End.

Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth. - Khamul's lair is in Mirkwood, Gaffer's in the garden

Rich man and poor man, - Khamul's probably loaded, Gaffer was glad of a sack of spuds
brink of the day.
Enemy and a son - Sam, - Khamul's enemy, Gaffer's son
not far away.

How am I doing Legate?

[Mnemosyne]

This has to be it. But "Third House" refers to number 3, Bagshot Row.

Very, very impressive, Rumil!!

[Rumil]

Doh! You must be right Mnem!! V Cool!

Shards of Narsil did the heavy thinking really:cool:

Where's Legate anyway?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, you are right, Rumil! (And Mnemo is right about the number three Bagshot Row, of course. For the record, Khamul was also said to be the "blindest" of all the Nazgul, especially in sunlight. And as for "richness", he was offering gold to all these farmers he met and asked them about Baggins. :) )

But nice - you may take the thread, good that somebody put the last pieces of puzzle into place at last! (Though Shard did a great job of moving it pretty far.)

[Morsul the Dark]

yeah... I wouldn't have gotten that...:eek:

[Rumil]

Great, riddle Legate,

It was a real collaborative effort to figure it out,

Cheers Shards and Mnem!

I don't think this one will prove quite so tricky ;)

Here you go-

My home is up at the top of the hill,
that's the place for me,
I love to find unexpected guests
and have them in for tea.

Send them to sleep in sheets so soft
before helping them on their way.
Many rooms off, plenty of space,
why don't you come round to stay?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, my first idea would be of course Bilbo, though that sounds too plainly obvious to be true.

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

your instincts are entirely correct, no its not Bilbo ;)

I think he was more flustered by unexpected guests (especially dwarves in the larder!)

Guess on !

R

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well yes, but the very mention of unexpected guests at all - after all, it could have been ironic ;)

But anyway, as for top-of-the-hill-dwellers who provide bed to unexpected guests and then send them on their way, what about Tom Bombadil? (Or Goldberry, for that matter.) I am not entirely sure about the tea, but then, why not.

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

nope, not Tom or Goldberry,


:p

R

[Morsul the Dark]

Shelob
top of cirith ungol
Find "guests"
to snack on(tea)

Soft Sheets, web
Helpng them on their way could mean helping them with that final "trip" death

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was also thinking about Mim the Petty Dwarf at one point, but then, he won't send them on their way, but make them stay, so I guess that's not it.

[Shards of Narsil]

He ran the Prancing Pony in Bree, which was a town on a hill. This may not fit well as I recall that the Inn was actually at the foot of the hill.

[Rumil]

Nice one!

Thought it wasn't going to mystify you too much, as long as the mood was twisted from 'light' to 'dark'

Oh the winner is, out of Legate, Morsul and Shards of Narsil


is















is









Morsul!!

Very briefly but entirely accurately explained too, ;)

Well done, all yours!

[Morsul the Dark]

Hordes fear me...
My final battle I have seen
My enemies' weakness discovered
This time I do not recover
For as my enemy dies
with him I lie

We'll see if that's as easy as I think it is...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think it isn't that ridiculously easy, as at least I cannot think now of anything that would really fit... of course I have some ideas, but they do not really fit...

[skip spence]

Could it be the Dead Men of Dunharrow?

[Rumil]

Hi Morsul,

how about Theoden?

Hordes of orcs and Southrons ran from him at the Pelennor, which was his final battle, but he did get to see Merry and Eowyn top the Witchking before he died.

?

[Morsul the Dark]

Nope though until I Read his guess I thought Rumil had it...

[Morsul the Dark]

Horders fear me...
My final battle I have seen
My enemies' weakness discovered
This time I do not recover
For as my enemy dies
with him I lie

We'll see if that's as easy as I think it is...

Also I made a spelling error here is the poem correctly spelled that might make it easier

[Morsul the Dark]

Clue:
The answer isn't a person...

[The Saucepan Man]

The Black Arrow used by Bard the Bowman to kill Smaug?

Horders fear me ... - It's victim, Smaug, was a hoarder.

My final battle I have seen - Smaug's attack on Laketown was its last battle.

My enemies' weakness discovered - Bilbo discovered Smaug's weak spot, which was coinveyed to Bard via Thrush messenger and it hence became the Black Arrow's target.

This time I do not recover / For as my enemy dies / with him I lie - The Black Arrow lies with Smaug's remains at the bottom of the Long Lake.

[Morsul the Dark]

of course sir:smokin:

[The Saucepan Man]

Thank you Morsul. :)

Next up ...

My first may be felt but cannot be touched.
My second is fed but tastes nothing much.
My third are your opposites, so you might say.
My fourth is what’s done at the start of the day.

To find me complete, I suggest that you trace
The deeds of the one in the Ringbearer’s place.

[Morsul the Dark]

Old man Willow?

He feels threatening...
He "feeds"
third something about Tom Bombadil
and then the hobbits wake up...?

[The Saucepan Man]

No, not Old Man Willow.

[Mugwump]

Just thinking aloud...



My first may be felt but cannot be touched.
My second is fed but tastes nothing much.
My third are your opposites, so you might say.
My fourth is what’s done at the start of the day.

To find me complete, I suggest that you trace
The deeds of the one in the Ringbearer’s place.
Can be felt but not touched: some kind of feeling like fear, hunger, cold, warmth, etc.

Is fed but has no taste: ambition, curiosity, desire, fire?

Your opposites: thumbs (your opposable digits).

Done at the start of the day: wake, rise.

The one in the Ringbearer's place: one of the residents of Bag End, I suppose. Perhaps Sam, who worked there. His deeds... he was a gardener.

So... "Warm fire thumbs awake" -- nah, that's not it. Not a description of gardening, anyway. Sam warming his hands by the fire? :confused:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nah, it doesn't sound that bad, Mugwump. Personally I had no idea when I saw the riddle and didn't feel like starting to think about something deeply for an hour. However, why not to make a little brainstorming, as long as it may give anybody a hint.

Your conclusions here made me think of Gaffer, for that matter. He was warming his hands by the fire, but that was in the Scouring of the Shire - when it comes to that, nobody says that the answer itself has anything to do with the Ringbearer at all. I didn't get it if the "one" is supposed to be "the one" (whom we know from somewhere before, for example from the first four hints) or if it is a new one, who is defined only by being "one in the Ringbearer's place". Which could be Bilbo, Gandalf, Frodo, also basically any silly Sackville-Baggins or young hobbit knocking on the floor, or even a Dwarf. (For that matter, even though I think the place is supposed to be Bag End, nobody says the Ringbearer needs to be Bilbo/Frodo. But most likely it is.)

Also, the initial impression I have is that we get something (four first letters?) from the start and we need to complete it with the rest.

Somehow, Samwise could fit there, but not completely. Once again the question is if the final answer is related at all to the riddle's theme (but it probably should).

[skip spence]

No time to give it much thought, but some parts of that riddle makes me think of Fatty Bolder.

His fear is felt, hunger is fed etc. obviously in the ringbearer's place in Crickhollow. But I'm shooting from the hip here mind you...

[The Saucepan Man]

Oh, you are all so close, particularly Mugwump, but you are not quite there yet ...

[Mugwump]

Well, I'm stumped; there's no more to go on. How about a wee hint: Is it a person, place, thing, action/activity, or a saying? Or something else?

[The Saucepan Man]

How about a wee hint: Is it a person, place, thing, action/activity, or a saying?Yes, it's one or more of those things. :p ;)

Take a look at some of the words that you came up with and then combine them with skip's ideas ...

[Lalaith]

Fear! Fire! Foes! Awake!

I can't really take credit for this though. Most of the heavy lifting had been done.

[Mugwump]

Fear! Fire! Foes! Awake!
Aha, a direct quote from the text! I would never have gotten that. Good work, Lalaith!

[The Saucepan Man]

Fear! Fire! Foes! Awake!Bingo!

Although I kind of like Mugwump's alternative ... "Warm! Fire! Thumbs! Awake!" :D

Well, heavy lifter or not, Lalaith, you get the credit for finding the answer, so the thread is yours. :)

[Lalaith]

This is probably too easy for you clever people. Sorry.

One is black and nine are white,
Unloved as she that gives us sight
Furtive in darkness, your secrets we spied
Cursed and remembered, unfinished we hide.

[Pitchwife]

It is indeed*. The Cats of Queen Beruthiel. Sorry too;).
*But nicely rhymed nevertheless!

EDIT: Aarrgh! Just looked it up and saw that nine were black and one was white! Which of us got it wrong?

[Mugwump]

EDIT: Aarrgh! Just looked it up and saw that nine were black and one was white! Which of us got it wrong?
In that case, my guess is a negative of a photo of the Cats of Queen Beruthiel! :cool:

[Lalaith]

That will teach me to try to set riddles late at night.
1. Preposterously easy
2. Wrong

Nine are black and one is white is how that first line should have gone....

[Pitchwife]

Does that mean I've solved it? Or should we say Mugwump has, as his answer fits the riddle as originally posted?

[Mugwump]

Don't be silly -- you're the winner, Pitchwife!

Thank you sir, may we have another! ;)

[Morsul the Dark]

bump... Pitchie You're up I believe as Mugwump relinquished the thread to you

[Pitchwife]

Yes, yes... I just need a little time to think...

[Pitchwife]

OK, let's try this - short and easy, as my riddles tend to be.

Daggers wrenched from owner's hold
Dearer bought than jewels or gold
Seed of hatred, gift of scorn
Still we sting, a wreath of thorn

[Mugwump]

Bee stingers?

[Morsul the Dark]

Barrow Wight Blade?

[Loslote]

The knife Angrist?

Daggers wrenched from owner's hold - Beren took it from Curufin's hand
Dearer bought than jewels or gold - He won it, but Curufin's arrow struck him in the chest
Seed of hatred, gift of scorn - Curufin cursed Beren after he (Beren) took the knife
Still we sting, a wreath of thorn - It tore a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown (the 'wreath of thorn')

[Morsul the Dark]

If that's not right I don't know what is Good Job!

[Pitchwife]

None of the above, sorry. (Although Lottie's solution would have been very neat - but it's daggers, plural.)

[Pitchwife]

No new answer for nine days? And I thought this was easy...:confused: Legate, Might, Rumil - where are you?
Anybody want a hint?

[Rumil]

Oh go on then... ;)

Having more or less finished work and Xmas shopping...

Cool riddle by the way PW, I'm hoping its a little metaphorical...

Daggers wrenched from owner's hold - dangerous items taken from their owners (hold being hands or caverns I guess)
Dearer bought than jewels or gold - more valuable indeed
Seed of hatred, gift of scorn - caused much trouble, poisoned gifts
Still we sting, a wreath of thorn - still causing heartache

So is the the seven rings of the Dwarves?

All reclaimed by Sauron, very valuable, caused dissention and conflict by increasing the dwarven gold-lust and given by Sauron in hope of corrupting the wearers, still causing trouble by contributing to Balin's doomed re-occupation of Moria.

Or not?

[The Saucepan Man]

Rumil may well have it. But, if not, his answer prompted a thought in my head, so if my arrow meets its mark, I have him to thank.

The Teeth of Scatha, the Dragon?

Daggers wrenched from owner's hold - Sharp as daggers, they were prised by Fram from the dead Dragon's mouth.
Dearer bought than jewels or gold - Purchased by the slaying of a Dragon.
Seed of hatred, gift of scorn - Scatha's hoard was the source of dispute between Fram's people and the Dwarves of the Grey Mountains and Fram's scornful gift to them of the Teeth prompted war.
Still we sting, a wreath of thorn Hmm, not sure about this one. Possibly, it refers to Fram's death at the Dwarves' hands.

[Rumil]

Hi Saucie,

great to see you back!! I think you must have the right of it, sounds a much better answer to me, waiting or PW to confirm.

I haven't read this bit about Scatha the Worm in an age, is it in UT or elsewhere?

All the best

R

[Pitchwife]

Oops - wrong mythology.
Anyway, Saucepan Man has it, it's Scatha's teeth (from LotR Appendix A II, Rumil) - and very nicely explained, too! As for the stinging bit, my thought was that Fram's gift stung the Dwarves' pride, metaphorically speaking, but Fram's death is another valid connotation; and wreath of thorn was meant as a metaphor for the necklace made of the teeth.
Well done, SpM - the thread is yours!

[Urwen]

I want to join.

[Urwen]

Can I write a new riddle?

[Pitchwife]

Hi Urwen, welcome to the Downs, and I'll hope you'll enjoy yourself being dead!
The usual procedure 'round here is that whoever solved the last riddle gets to post the next, but as SpM has been silent for nearly two months, I'd say the thread is up for grabs, so if you want to, take it. I suggest you just repost your riddle (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16325) here instead of creating an extra thread for it - or post another one, as you like it.

[Urwen]

Here's my riddle:

Three were we
reduced to none
the first one
was slain alone
the second one
was slain for thing that shone
the third one
forever was gone.

[The Might]

Nice riddle, couldn't come up with anything smart so far, but I'll keep looking. :D

[Rumil]

Hi Urwen,

welcome to the Downs!

It's been a bit slow on Riddles recently, hasn't it. Hopefully we can get people going with a few guesses.

Ok, not sure this is the answer, many possibilities!

Three were we - The three elven ambassadors to the Valar
reduced to none - in Middle Earth
the first one
was slain alone - Finwe, slain by Morgoth
the second one
was slain for thing that shone - Elwe (Thingol), slain for the Nauglamir (Silmaril)
the third one
forever was gone. - Ingwe, stayed in Valinor, so forever gone from Middle Earth

So Finwe, Elwe, Ingwe, are my guesses

[Urwen]

Yes,they are the answer. Go on.

[Rumil]

Cool!

Nice riddle Urwen!

I'll get my thinking cap on for the next one ;)

[Rumil]

Evening all,

A quick one for the next riddle, shouldn't be over-taxing!

Who am I and what is my name?
A chap had the same,
long long ago.

Who am I and what is my name?
I played the great game,
and did I win? No!

Who am I and what is my name?
Despite my great fame,
The first you can't know.

[The Might]

I'll go with a more exotic answer, mayber it will pay off, my answer is Fastred, a rider of Rohan.

Who am I and what is my name? - Fastred
A chap had the same, - there had been another Fastred
long long ago. - three hundred years

Who am I and what is my name?
I played the great game, - guess the great game is supposed to be life?!
and did I win? No! - was killed at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Who am I and what is my name?
Despite my great fame, - his name was remembered in song as said in LotR
The first you can't know. - since the first Fastred died in battle in Gondor

[Rumil]

Hi Miggy,

Interesting one! Fairly close, but not the one I was thinking of

The 'first' refers to the question 'who am I?'

Guess On!

[The Might]

Ah, the first refers to the person asking... ok in that case let me see what I can find.

Ok, let's see... maybe Óin

Who am I and what is my name? - Óin
A chap had the same, - Óin, King of Durin's Folk
long long ago. - 500 years

Who am I and what is my name?
I played the great game, - one could see the "game" as the Dwarves' constant attempt to recapture Moria
and did I win? No! - killed by the Watcher in the Water

Who am I and what is my name?
Despite my great fame, - he was after all part of Thorin's company
The first you can't know. - because all information had been lost and his story was only recorded in the Book of Mazarbul

[Nerwen]

I'm going to guess it's... not Óin. :p

The thing is, Rumil, taken really broadly this riddle could refer to just about anyone in Middle-earth. (Can you truly know who someone is? etc.)

A hint would be nice.:Merisu:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, I think it's not that unspecific. Or at least with the "the first you can't know" - that makes me think of, for example, Tom Bombadil. Although this one would not make sense for different reasons (like who would be the other Tom "long ago", of course you have e.g. Tom the Troll, but he was not "long ago" unless you think of Bombadil as the Bombadil in LotR, at that particular moment, in that case Bilbo's journey could be perceived as "long ago", but in the context...). I think this one actually need not be that unspecific, one just needs to think... It will be Tom, Ungoliant, something like that :D

[Nerwen]

I think this one actually need not be that unspecific, one just needs to think... It will be Tom, Ungoliant, something like that :D

Ah yes, as we all know Ungoliant was named after her remote ancestor, Ungoliant the First.;)

Seriously, I expect you're right.

[Rumil]

Hi All,

so, lets see, who do we have..

Miggy - Oin - nope, close, but no cigar (that doesn't mean its a dwarf by the way, just that the method was [almost] valid).

Nerwen, indeed, 'Who am I, alone and nameless?' I know what you mean but when you figure this one out you'll see why the question 'who am I?' is especially tricky.

Legate, Nerwen, er... no, defintely not Ungoliant ;-) , nor Tom,

I really thought this one would be cracked within a couple of posts,

Guess On!

[Pitchwife]

Hmmm... A lot of people had recycled names (kings and stewards of Gondor, heirs of Isildur, kings of Númenor...), but here's my guess:
Glorfindel (of Rivendell)
a chap had the same [scil. name] = Glorfindel of Gondolin, First age
I played the great game = Balrog-wrestling?
and did I win? No! - Well, in a way he did, but he died in the process, so maybe not exactly a win...
despite my great fame - Glorfindel of G. was a legend, of course, and Glorfindel of R. made the WitchKing take to his heels twice, which has to count for something
the first [scil. Who am I?] you can't know - maybe referring to the uncertainty whether the two were canonically the same person?
Doesn't seem to fit too well, all in all, but it's worth a try.

[The Might]

Okay, the only thing I can think of is Gollum/Smeagol:

Who am I and what is my name? - problems with the split personality and thus also the name
A chap had the same, - thinking back to the time he was Smeagol, thinking of this as another person
long long ago. - had been quite some time

Who am I and what is my name?
I played the great game, - this fits nicely here with the riddle-game played against Bilbo, it is described as ancient and powerful or something similar
and did I win? No! - he didn't

Who am I and what is my name?
Despite my great fame, - he would become quite famous through the stories about the War of the Ring and had been known to many before
The first you can't know. - few knew his initial identity as a hobbit

Well, I can't think of anything else right now, so hopefully I'm right this time.

[Rumil]

Hi Pitchwife,

Close, but no!

Might- nice twist, but nope!

Carry On....

[Nerwen]

Okay... what about Gildor Inglorion, then?

Who am I and what is my name?
A chap had the same,
long long ago. –There was a Gildor in the First Age, one of Barahir's men.

Who am I and what is my name?
I played the great game,
and did I win? No! –Not sure what this would mean. Lost his friendly verbal fencing-match with Frodo and ended up giving him a straight answer? Played no real role in winning the war? :confused:

Who am I and what is my name?
Despite my great fame,
The first you can't know. –Literally, as his origin remains a mystery.

[Loslote]

Boromir?

Who am I and what is my name?
A chap had the same,
long long ago. - There was a Boromir before.

Who am I and what is my name?
I played the great game,
and did I win? No! - He vied for control of the One Ring.

Who am I and what is my name?
Despite my great fame, - He was famous in Gondor as the Steward's Son as well as for his own deeds
The first you can't know. - Boromir is a very confusing character, what with the whole "going crazy and demanding the Ring" episode.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh crap, no! Now it occured to me! Is it Gothmog?

Who am I and what is my name?
A chap had the same, - Gothmog the Balrog
long long ago. - First Age

Who am I and what is my name?
I played the great game, - the War of the Ring or the Battle at Pelennor Fields
and did I win? No! - of course not

Who am I and what is my name?
Despite my great fame,
The first you can't know. - Gothmog is Gothmog, nobody knows what exactly he is, whether Man, Orc, Troll, Nazgul or something completely different.

[Rumil]

And we have a winner!!

Unlucky Nerwen and Loslote,

Well done Legate!!!

Hope I've not been too cheeky with this one, everyone came up with great ideas. I guess if I'd asked 'What am I' it would have been far too easy :D.

Oh, and the 'great fame' was slightly tongue-in-cheek, ;)

All Yours Legate

[The Might]

Nice riddle, now it all makes sense. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh my, now I have to come up with one! Okay, give me a minute :D

...let's see. I don't feel exactly at the peak of my creativity right now, but hope you will at least enjoy riddling :) Here it goes:

Before the Black King made his move
after the White Queen's done her due
our Rook is threatened, gone our Knight
and it is White against the White
Now it's my turn, with no delay
I will just move, then I will say,
me, lonely Pawn, the tale of loss.
So many of the other Pawns
have taken our Knight en passant
I thought our figures are all gone...

But I see King, now moves a Knight -
will it be White against the White?

Well, good riddling... :)

[Mnemosyne]

So this is just an extension of a comparison that's already been done in canon, but let me see...

Before the Black King made his move pre-Siege of Gondor
after the White Queen's done her due Um? Possibly Galadriel's awesome advice-giving?
our Rook is threatened, gone our Knight Minas Tirith (the castle) is about to go under siege, but Faramir is out.
and it is White against the White Gandalf and Denethor giving each other the staredown
Now it's my turn, with no delay
I will just move, then I will say,
me, lonely Pawn, the tale of loss. *huggles a helpless-feeling Pippin*
So many of the other Pawns
have taken our Knight en passant
I thought our figures are all gone... Faramir brought news of Frodo and Sam, whom Pippin hadn't heard of in forever.

But I see King, now moves a Knight -
will it be White against the White? Post-siege? Pippin does call the arrival of Aragorn instead of those pesky corsairs. At any rate "white against white" could refer to the possible internal power struggle that the King's arrival would necessitate.

Not perfect, but not bad for a first guess.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Definitely not bad for first guess, that's for sure! However, as you said, not perfect :) The correct answer is somewhat more "coherent", so to speak, things fitting much more smoothly (if you get the right answer, you'd be able to verify it by very easily identifying every single figure/event in the riddle).

But clearly, in any case, opposite to the obvious in-book parallel, the "Pawn" here is not Pippin.

[Mnemosyne]

I figured. Your riddles are rarely that easy. :smokin:

[The Might]

I'm somewhat jealous that I can't come up with this kind of stuff.
I didn't even know what en passant means before this. :D Thanks, Wikipedia!

Before the Black King made his move - I agree this is Sauron attacking Gondor
after the White Queen's done her due - Galadriel and the Fellowship
our Rook is threatened, gone our Knight - the Rook is the Hornburg, the Knight is Eomer
and it is White against the White - Gandalf and Saruman the White
Now it's my turn, with no delay - Theoden speaking in my opinion
I will just move, then I will say, - move to the Hornburg
me, lonely Pawn, the tale of loss. - felt like a pawn after being used by Saruman, tale of loss for losing Theodred
So many of the other Pawns - pawns like Grima or Edoras guards obeying orders blindly
have taken our Knight en passant - forced Eomer to leave with his eored
I thought our figures are all gone... - little hope indeed

But I see King, now moves a Knight - Aragorn and Eomer returning
will it be White against the White? - thinking about the duel to come between Gandalf and Saruman after the battle before riding to Isengard

Sounds ok I guess...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nay, nay, sorry. Sounds nice, but calling Théoden a pawn? ;) And there are still some unclarities, for example especially the part around the "tale of loss" would not really fit very smoothly, would it?

But good attempts, very nice attempts, I like them :) But still waiting for the correct answer - it really fits perfectly once you get it (with correct and clear chronology of the account provided by the "Pawn" and all. Also a hint - figures removed the board do not return, so we have two different Knights in the beginning and in the end).

[Rumil]

Hmm, hoom etc.

Not such an easy one Legate....


Maybe this is the answer, probably not! Still eliminates a possibility even so.

Before the Black King made his move --- before Siege of Gondor
after the White Queen's done her due --- Galadriel, Lothlorien
our Rook is threatened, gone our Knight --- Helm's Deep, Theodred dead
and it is White against the White --- White Hand v White Horse

Now it's my turn, with no delay --- Ceorl
I will just move, then I will say, --- a horseman riding back towards them
me, lonely Pawn, the tale of loss. --- of the Fords of the Isen
So many of the other Pawns --- Orcs, Halforcs Dunlendings and Goblin Men
have taken our Knight en passant --- what has become of Erkenbrand none seem to know
I thought our figures are all gone... --- the rest are scattered

But I see King, now moves a Knight - --- Theoden, Gandalf rides off
will it be White against the White? --- Gandalf v Saruman?

I don't think a pawn can't take a knight en passant? Indeed Erkenbrand survived to save the day. OK I'm stretching this one huh?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nah, but you are right! It's Ceorl, our Pawn who's telling the story, and just for the sake of clarity, the Knight who has been "taken en passant" is Théodred (he is referred to both in the first and the second part, where Ceorl recounts once again what has happened; the Knight in the end can be anything, from Éomer to a symbolic expression of the Rohirrim host riding to Helm's Deep). Of course the White against the White refers to Gandalf and Saruman, in the first part, you can even interpretate it just in the matter of colors yet, i.e. the divided court of Rohan. But anyway, the main point was to figure out the situation and determine that it's Ceorl who is talking here. So, your turn, Rumil!

[The Might]

Nice one, Rumil! As usual, it does make sense once the answer has been found.

[Rumil]

Ah, I'm pleasantly surprised!

Nice one Legate, was thinking Minas Tirith, Helm's Deep etc etc, even tried to get the Death of Boromir to fit somehow.

I mistakenly thought that all knights had to be different, from your earlier post, thus Erkenbrand, glad to see Theodred gets re-used, as it makes more sense that way.

Will have a go at the next one soon,

Cheers,

R

[Urwen]

My go:


My father stood tall,
but he did fall

My land and my right I tried to protect
but I did fail
with my cousin hungry for power
and enemy at our tail

I still stand tall
To death I make my way
Yet there's hope left for us
And that's what I have to say

[Mnemosyne]

Tar-Miriel?

[Urwen]

YES! It's Tar-Miriel who speaks.My favourite character! Your turn;)

[Mnemosyne]

Out of time, out of place,
Gold my hair and green my face.

Maiden-like I fenced me in;
He loved me and I loved him.

Though we quarreled by and by,
For my sake he left to die.

My guards left me, fair and fresh;
They arrived and fouled my flesh.

When at last we met again,
Both our selves all scarred with pain,

To my horror I could see
He no more belonged to me.

He left me under another--
Where shall I find such a lover?

[Urwen]

Yavanna?
My guards-Ents
They arrived and fouled my flesh-Morgoth and Ungoliant arrived and sucked out two Trees:)

[Mnemosyne]

Nope.

[Urwen]

Out of time, out of place,-Elves,children of Eru
Gold my hair and green my face.-Elves loved flowers,earth and sun

Maiden-like I fenced me in;-indeed;and her singing was beautiful
He loved me and I loved him.-it is obvious

Though we quarreled by and by,-about freedom
For my sake he left to die.-but he didn't know.One cannot possibly know he'll jump from ship

My guards left me, fair and fresh;-Lorien elves
They arrived and fouled my flesh.-as Legolas said about Orcs

When at last we met again,-Probably in Aman
Both our selves all scarred with pain,-sort of

To my horror I could see
He no more belonged to me.-they grew estranged due to long separation

He left me under another--another star
Where shall I find such a lover?-they were lovers

So is the answer....Nimrodel the elf-maid

[Mnemosyne]

Close, but no cigar. As you yourself stated, there was no way anyone could have known Amroth would have jumped ship when he and Nimrodel were separated.

Plus Nimrodel doesn't have a green face. :)

[Urwen]

Maybe Fimbrethil,then:confused:

[Mnemosyne]

Nor her neither.

[Urwen]

Maybe a hint?:)

[Mnemosyne]

Good heavens! The riddle's been up only a day, and you're the only person who's responded so far!

Give it at least a week, and let some other people think it over. This riddle is not supposed to be easy!

[satansaloser2005]

Wow. That's a good one.

I'd feel very out of place answering this, seeing as I wouldn't be able to make a very creative riddle in response, but I just have to say how happy this makes me. 'Cause it really, really does. (Mostly that I got it at all, to be honest.) Good fortune to all of you trying to figure it out! :)


P.S. Mnemo, you sultry minx.

[Mnemosyne]

*bump*

New page, so I'm reposting the Riddle.



Out of time, out of place,
Gold my hair and green my face.

Maiden-like I fenced me in;
He loved me and I loved him.

Though we quarreled by and by,
For my sake he left to die.

My guards left me, fair and fresh;
They arrived and fouled my flesh.

When at last we met again,
Both our selves all scarred with pain,

To my horror I could see
He no more belonged to me.

He left me under another--
Where shall I find such a lover?

[Pitchwife]

OK, so that this thread doesn't become stagnant and fall prey to You-Know-Who, I'll hazard a guess:

The speaker is Laurelin, and her lover Telperion.

Out of time, out of place, - in Aman
Gold my hair and green my face. - gold her fruits and blossoms, green her leaves;

Maiden-like I fenced me in;
He loved me and I loved him. - well, yes... don't know exactly how to make that fit...

Though we quarreled by and by, - they climaxed (er...:o) at different times, leading to the mingling of the lights, etc.?
For my sake he left to die. - ???

My guards left me, fair and fresh; - presumably gone to the festival on Taniquetil;
They arrived and fouled my flesh. - Morgoth and Ungolianth.

When at last we met again, - her last fruit and his last blossom, the Sun and Moon?
Both our selves all scarred with pain, - sunspots and moon craters?

To my horror I could see
He no more belonged to me. - their orbits out of sync with each other

He left me under another--
Where shall I find such a lover? - Hmmm...yes, well, where indeed?

Doesn't fit too well, and since you said Urwen was 'close' with Nimrodel, it's probably far off the mark... I've got another idea, but that needs more thinking.

[Mnemosyne]

No, that's not it.

Urwen was "close" with Nimrodel because she was able to make most of the lines fit, but not all of them. That doesn't necessarily mean that Nimrodel is close to the answer.

Keep thinking, and carry on... :cool:

[Rumil]

Hi Mnemosyne,

this is a real cracker, I'll try a more geographic interpretation (mostly because I can't think of green-faced characters)

Out of time, out of place, - more Edwardian England than Dark Age kingdom
Gold my hair and green my face. - leaves in the autumn (?), green grass

Maiden-like I fenced me in; - withdrawn from the world
He loved me and I loved him. - Frodo loved the place, perhaps reciprocated?

Though we quarreled by and by, - there was mention of dragon invasions
For my sake he left to die. - to Mordor

My guards left me, fair and fresh; - Rangers withdrawn
They arrived and fouled my flesh. - Sharkey and the ruffians

When at last we met again, - Scouring
Both our selves all scarred with pain, - wounds that can never fully heal in F's case

To my horror I could see
He no more belonged to me. - Frodo depressed and disillusioned

He left me under another-- - Sam eventually
Where shall I find such a lover? - the Fairbairns of Undertowers?

So my answer is The Shire - close or far away??

[Mnemosyne]

Ding ding ding!!

You even got the anachronisms and the invasions of dragons. :)

The only thing I'd quibble you with is that Frodo no longer belonged to the Shire because he'd grown beyond it spiritually, but that whole thing is so up to interpretation it's ridiculous.

Thread's yours, Rumil.

[Rumil]

Oh, cool!

Nice one Mnemosyne, that had me foxed for ages until I thought of the Geographic option.

Will get my thinking cap on for the next one, and try to make the deadline this time :-)

[Rumil]

Well here we go,

I think this one will either prove maddeningly impossible, or someone will have a brainwave and get it straight off. Not sure which yet -here you go-


Often found at Bag End,
and though no-one mentioned me,
I must have been there that fine night,
under the party tree.

No sign at Farmer Maggot's
nor Crickhollow hideaway,
none at all at Old Tom's house,
even on washing day.

At Rivendell, the elves do tell,
Bilbo was warned of me.
But on his dragon quest and return West,
I'm lacking, don't you see?

My ancient cousin, you may discover,
in Galadriel's fair realm,
and mention of another,
but the cousin's far less bother.

But I'll be there,
though it's cold and bare,
by the seat of power,
in Ecthelion's Tower.
And you'll be glad,
my lass or lad,
to set your eyes on me.

[Blind Guardian]

Gandalf...?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Huh, what a riddle. I would say that it's either something very obscure or very abstract. As I have read it, a few things occured to me, but none of them fit. After reading it for a while, I started to think of abstract things like "greed" and stuff like that, but I'm thinking that it will be more likely after all something more concretely Middle-Earthish, right? And even otherwise, the last three lines really sort of spoil it (I have been thinking of things like "woodworm" or "mouse" before, the same problem as above).

[Urwen]

The Elessar?!