Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Dwarves?

[Huinesoron]

Not dwarves.

You're looking for a specific sequence of events that ties the whole thing together.

hS

[Urwen]

Three houses of Men, then?


Red-faced makes me think of Caranthir, to whom Uldor and his sons swored fealty, but ended up betraying him and allying with Melkor instead.

[Huinesoron]

You are most definitely on the right track. :)

Edit: All right, to be more fair: Caranthir, Uldor and his sons are the answer to the first half of the riddle. But can you tell me why, specifically, I used the words I did?

(Also the second half, obviously...!)

hS

[Urwen]

All right


Ugly they named us, the Red-Faced and his kin
Insulting our lands, our hair and our beards
Naming us Betrayer behind welcoming grins
Is it any wonder we turned out as they feared?


Ulfang and his sons swore allegiance to Caranthir, whom the first line refers to. Now, I don't have a book nearby, and the online sources are scarce on this matter, but I assume that Feanorians mistrusted Ulfang and his sons from the beginning, and tried to hide it. This made them bitter, which enabled Morgoth to sway them by promising them the lands that were kept from them as a result of aforementioned mistrust, if they helped him. So they did.



Faithful they named us, the Red and Gold together
The shield, the flame-brand, the wide open vale
Welcoming our people as kinfolk forever
Is it any wonder we were loyal without fail?


Now this second stanza describes the other mannish house mentioned: the house of Bor. Maedhros (red) and Maglor (Gold) named him Bor (which probably means faithful) because of his loyalty, and his sons' names also had that root.

[Huinesoron]

Pretty much correct! The riddle refers to the two tribes of Easterlings, under Ulfang and Bor, and their eventual fates.

But... there's no evidence Caranthir mistrusted Ulfang and company. Do you fancy trying to figure out what I'm going on about with that - and explaining those second lines along the way? (And, for that matter, 'ugly'...)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I want to explain those too, really, but I can't. You see, the thing is, there is very little information regarding Ulfang and Bor and their houses in the book, and there is also very little information online as well.


Do you know about any website that gives more info about them? If I had more info, I think I'll be able to fill the gaps.

[Huinesoron]

I don't really know much about them either, just their names (and their fates). But... that's kind of all I needed to know. :)

You got most of the way there with Bor and the three Feanorians. Just extrapolate a little further...

hS

[Urwen]

Or I could just take the turn? :p

[Huinesoron]

Go for it!

It was all one extended Sindarin joke. 'Ulfang' probably wasn't written to be Sindarin, but translates perfectly as 'hideous (=ugly) beard'. Similarly, Uldor, Ulfast, and Ulwarth come out as Ugly Land, Ugly Hair, and Ugly Betrayer. The idea behind the riddle is that this is how the Noldor would have interpreted the names.

Bor, as you said, is 'faithful', and Borlach, Borlad, and Borthand can be read as Faithful-Flame, -Lowland, and -Shield. The fact that the Faithful house remained loyal while the Ugly house rebelled... well, it was too much fun to miss.

Okay, enough out of me: go Urwen!

hS

[Urwen]

Hope this one is to your liking as well



I saw your life dangle on the strings
Yet I was unable to do a single thing
I watched as you became a sacrifice
Of a bloody war


There was someone else
I chose to give my love to
But she turned away from me
Because she fell in love with another


Despite knowing she couldn't love me as I was
I supported her all the same
I tried to warn her that the man she loved had darkness within
As shown by his chosen name


But she didn't listen
And ultimately, she was taken away
I, who still loved her
Was left behind to decay


I wanted to protect both you and her
But in the end, I couldn't do either
I just hope that when the three of us meet again
You'd both forgive me and release me from my pain

[Pervinca Took]

Is this the guy who loved Finduilas? Gwindor, if I recall correctly, who also gave his (comradely) love to Turin?

[Urwen]

Is this the guy who loved Finduilas? Gwindor, if I recall correctly, who also gave his (comradely) love to Turin?


You got two elements of the riddle, including the answer, but as the extra challenge. can you tell who is the 'you' in the riddle.

[Pervinca Took]

I thought 'you' was Finduilas.

Ah ... no. She's the 'she' of verse 2.

Am not sure without looking it up ... is the 'you' Beleg?

[Urwen]

No. I sorta drew inspiration from this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2mjjQQsQFM) when I wrote the the riddle.


EDIT: Maybe this would help: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gwindor


Check his biographical information there, and you'll know who 'you' is.

[Huinesoron]

Is 'you' Gwindor's brother - Gelmir, I think? He was executed by Morgoth's army in front of the Nargothrond host, and Gwin's reckless charge in response led to the disaster of the Nirnaeth and his own capture.

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah. It's Pervinca's turn, I believe.

[Pervinca Took]

It was a lovely poem, Urwen. And that YouTube cartoon you linked to looks beautiful. I will watch it when I have a little more time.

I've never written a riddle before, unless you count my 'pubs and inns' password. If I can't think of one quickly enough, I'd be happy for Huinesoron to have the next go. But I will try.

[Urwen]

How long until you will give the turn to him?

[Pervinca Took]

Well, I have something I originally wrote as a filk. I could try it as a riddle.

[Pervinca Took]

OK - just don't hit me if you don't like filks, OK? This is not me trying to pass off Pink Floyd's work as my own - just a humble tribute to two masterpieces instead of one:

SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAMOND

Remember when you were young,
You shone like the sun:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Then came that look in your eyes
Weary, hunted and wise:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
You were speared on a hilltop
In terror and combat,
Rode on a sea of pain.
Come on, you target for conspirers’ laughter!
Come on, you legend, you hero, you martyr, and shine!

You took up the gauntlet:
Fared forth in the dark
Shine on you crazy diamond!
Threatened by shadows at night
And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Well you wore out your heart’s strength
With deadly precision,
And broke on a mountain’s peak;
Come on, you quester, you seer of visions,
Come on, you vessel of light never darkling
And shine!

Where are you roaming tonight?
How near or how far?
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Pile on many more years
And I’ll be joining you there:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
And we’ll bask in the glory of yesterday’s triumph
And weep on Cormallen’s field!
Come on, you dreamer
You winner and loser!
Come on you deep one, you thinker, you muser
And shine!


SO -

Who might sing this?
To whom?
And what would the verses/lines refer to?

[Huinesoron]

Well... Cormallen points me at the War of the Ring, and the only person I know of who was 'speared' is Frodo Baggins.

Which works pretty well with the rest of the poem:

Remember when you were young,
You shone like the sun:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Then came that look in your eyes
Weary, hunted and wise:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

A general summary of Frodo's path. The repeated 'diamond' refrain can refer to the white gem he received from ?Arwen right at the end of the story.

You were speared on a hilltop
In terror and combat,
Rode on a sea of pain.

A combination of two references: Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop (and rode - by himself - over Bruinen despite his pain), but was later speared in Moria.

Come on, you target for conspirers’ laughter!

The Conspiracy Unmasked, of course.

Come on, you legend, you hero, you martyr, and shine!

This is more accurate outside the Shire than within; in that country, Bilbo was more of a legend than his nephew. But in Gondor, yes.

You took up the gauntlet:
Fared forth in the dark
Shine on you crazy diamond!

Frodo swore to bear the Ring, and I believe left Rivendell at sunset.

Threatened by shadows at night

The Nazgul.

And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

'There is nothing between me and the Wheel of Fire', as he said.

Well you wore out your heart’s strength
With deadly precision,
And broke on a mountain’s peak;

Welcome to Mordor. 'Deadly precision' really does sum up Frodo's grinding-down during the final stages of the journey, and in the end he did break.

Come on, you quester, you seer of visions,
Come on, you vessel of light never darkling
And shine!

Frodo has multiple visionary moments - in Bombadil's house, at Bruinen, in Lorien, on Amon Hen, and in Mordor (possibly others too). The 'vessel of light' refers both to him, and to the Phial of Galadriel.

Where are you roaming tonight?
How near or how far?
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Pile on many more years
And I’ll be joining you there:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
And we’ll bask in the glory of yesterday’s triumph
And weep on Cormallen’s field!
Come on, you dreamer
You winner and loser!
Come on you deep one, you thinker, you muser
And shine!

This verse answers the third question: who is the Singer? Well, Frodo is walking the roads of the Lonely Isle tonight, and after many years and the death of his beloved Mistress Rose, it is Samwise Gamgee who will join him there.

'You winner and loser' is a perfect summary of Frodo's journey, while 'dreamer, deep one, thinker, muser' is equally perfect as a description of his character.

How'd I do?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Fantastically! There are some ideas and insights there that I hadn't thought of, a few missed and a few answered differently but well.

I will give itemised feedback when I have a little more time .. could you just hold on to your next riddle until then? I'll try to do it today.

Just for now, though, Finduilas was speared too. And Celebrimbor (after death, at least).

[Huinesoron]

Fantastically! There are some ideas and insights there that I hadn't thought of, a few missed and a few answered differently but well.

I will give itemised feedback when I have a little more time .. could you just hold on to your next riddle until then? I'll try to do it today.

Just for now, though, Finduilas was speared too. And Celebrimbor (after death, at least).

Perfectly happy to wait (I haven't written it yet anyway... :D). I think there was a bit of spear action around the Riders of Rohan, too (plus of course Gil-Galad was famously a spear-wielder); I kind of compressed my thought process, since I was really looking at Third Age + spear + mountain to get Frodo.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

HWell... Cormallen points me at the War of the Ring, and the only person I know of who was 'speared' is Frodo Baggins.

Which works pretty well with the rest of the poem:

A general summary of Frodo's path. The repeated 'diamond' refrain can refer to the white gem he received from ?Arwen right at the end of the story.

I don't think I thought of Arwen's gem at all, actually. The constant repetition of 'Shine on' in the original song automatically made me think of Frodo, because of the light that is said to shine within him, and which is noticed and commented on by Gandalf and Sam. I kept 'crazy diamond' because it's in the original song (which I find incredibly moving, both in reference to the late Syd Barrett *and* in the way I find it applicable to Frodo). Plus the 'crazy' bit feels like an affectionate way of Sam acknowledging that 'It's beyond any Gamgee to know what he'll do next.' As Tolkien said, there was an aspect of Sam that 'prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved.'

A combination of two references: Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop (and rode - by himself - over Bruinen despite his pain), but was later speared in Moria.

Ah yes - he did indeed ride alone over Bruinen!

I was using the phrase 'sea of pain' metaphorically, though, for the 17 days he bore the splinter (although I don't think he would have felt it for the last 2 or 3, when he was unconscious). I wanted him to 'ride' on something (metaphorically) because the original lyrics go 'Rode on a steel breeze,' (a reference to a steel guitar/steel strings, I think).

Although - silly me - he was riding on something anyway! First Bill, and then Asfaloth.

I also used 'spear' metaphorically, just to mean impaled/pierced/stabbed with something, which is what a spear does. Mainly for euphony - it sounds nicer than 'stabbed.' So 'speared on a hilltop' refers exclusively to the wounding at Weathertop.

The Conspiracy Unmasked, of course.[/I]

Correct interpretation of 'victim of conspirers' laughter' - again, it's a tweaking of the original lyrics, which I think referred to Syd's vulnerability to laughter from the audience - I'm sure I once read something to that effect.

[quote]This is more accurate outside the Shire than within; in that country, Bilbo was more of a legend than his nephew. But in Gondor, yes.

Just the fact that he IS a legend - and Sam at least (and Gondor) knew it.

'Martyr' is in the original lyrics too - but reflects the fact that his heroism was of a sacrificial nature. I kind of imagine Sam using the term with a slightly wry affection.

Frodo swore to bear the Ring, and I believe left Rivendell at sunset.

Correct for the 'gauntlet' bit - 'fared forth in the dark' was I think I general comment on the darkness of his road, ('the darkest road' - Aragorn at Cormallen) and how little known the way ahead or how on earth the quest would be achieved was. I might have been thinking about them leaving at sunset too - can't remember.

Threatened by shadows at night

The Nazgul.

Quote:
And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

'There is nothing between me and the Wheel of Fire', as he said.

Maybe … I think it was a reference to the terrible last days of Ringbearing, when even 'sleep [was] uneasy, full of dreams of fire, and waking brought him no comfort' either.

Welcome to Mordor. 'Deadly precision' really does sum up Frodo's grinding-down during the final stages of the journey, and in the end he did break.

Yes, and the fact that, as Tolkien said, every drop of his power of mind and body was 'just enough to take him to [Mount Doom] and no further.'

That's the deadly precision: it was exactly enough for the quest to succeed, but not enough for him to be able to succeed by an act of will, recover and live in peace in his own country again. :(

Frodo has multiple visionary moments - in Bombadil's house, at Bruinen, in Lorien, on Amon Hen, and in Mordor (possibly others too). The 'vessel of light' refers both to him, and to the Phial of Galadriel.

All accurate. Again, Frodo becoming 'like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.' I was most likely thinking of the Phial he bore as well, as you say.

And as Paul Kocher pointed out, no-one dreams as much (or as prophetically?) as he does.

… who is the Singer? Well, Frodo is walking the roads of the Lonely Isle tonight, and after many years and the death of his beloved Mistress Rose, it is Samwise Gamgee who will join him there.

Quite.

'You winner and loser' is a perfect summary of Frodo's journey, while 'dreamer, deep one, thinker, muser' is equally perfect as a description of his character.

Yes - he lost everything, in a sense: health, home, peace of mind, friends (because he had to leave them) … I know he gained (won) other things afterwards, but it doesn't alter the fact that he sacrificed the future he most wanted. And he won/helped save things for others to enjoy.

Yes, he 'technically' or in one sense lost the battle against the Ring, because it was not possible for one not divine to win it. But he won the quest through his endurance, pity and humility - and with help from Sam and Gollum (and distraction from Aragorn and Co).

I really love this song.

Not as much as I love Frodo. :) But I love it.

Over to you, Huinesoron!

[Huinesoron]

Pervinca, I could tell there was more detail than I was catching, but I couldn't guess just how much more. That's really impressive!

Moving along to something much less ornate:

That which lives has come to life;
That which drinks is set to eat;
That which brings sleep is put to sleep.

hS

[Urwen]

The last line makes me think of Gulduin, though it's probably not the answer.


Also, do all three lines refer to the same thing?

[Huinesoron]

Yep, the whole riddle refers to a single thing, and specifically to a series of events related to it. Not Gulduin, though.

('Thing' should not be taken to imply for or against it being a character.)

hS

PS: I assume 'Gulduin' here is the Enchanted River in Mirkwood? That seems to be what the MERP used it for.

[Urwen]

PS: I assume 'Gulduin' here is the Enchanted River in Mirkwood? That seems to be what the MERP used it for.


Yeah.


My next guess is Bilbo


That which lives has come to life - he was thought dead by people in the Shire during the quest for Erebor, but 'came back to life' because no one in the Shire knew he was alive the whole time
That which drinks is set to eat - not sure about this one
That which brings sleep is put to sleep - probably something to do with Gulduin, as it's the only thing I can think of which brings sleep

[Huinesoron]

It isn't Bilbo, and the sleep has nothing to do with the Enchanted River in Mirkwood. :)

hS

[Urwen]

It isn't Bilbo, and the sleep has nothing to do with the Enchanted River in Mirkwood. :)

hS


But what else brings sleep?

[Huinesoron]

The answer to the riddle. ^_^

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is it something to do with the dwarves sleeping until Eru allowed them to waken?

[Huinesoron]

It is not. Much later than that.

hS

[Urwen]

The Eye of Sauron? The eye that never sleeps was finally put to sleep by being destroyed?

[Pervinca Took]

Glaurung?

[Huinesoron]

Neither Sauron nor Glaurung, though you're right to be looking at malevolent entities.

Both instances of sleep are literal, not death.

hS

[Urwen]

Think I got it, it's none other than Ole Man Willowy


That which lives has come to life - He is a sentient tree
That which drinks is set to eat - trees 'drink' water from the ground and he almost 'ate' the hobbits
That which brings sleep is put to sleep - He makes hobbits fall asleep in order to 'eat' them, then is put to sleep himself later

[Huinesoron]

Think I got it, it's none other than Ole Man Willowy


That which lives has come to life - He is a sentient tree
That which drinks is set to eat - trees 'drink' water from the ground and he almost 'ate' the hobbits
That which brings sleep is put to sleep - He makes hobbits fall asleep in order to 'eat' them, then is put to sleep himself later

Correct! And with all the details too. :) Over to you, Urwen.

hS

[Urwen]

Actually, I think I'll cash that one for later, as I've come up with a better one


Firstborn daughter,
Secondborn child
I brought forth laughter
As I ran wild

My life was cut short
By the ill-gotten fumes
But I was the lucky one
As the future would prove

My siblings outlived me
As you could plainly see
My mortal life might be gone
But in exchange, my soul escaped from the Dark One

[Pervinca Took]

Lalaith, referring to her siblings Turin and Nienor?

[Urwen]

Lalaith, referring to her siblings Turin and Nienor?


Yes. :cool:

[Pervinca Took]

Thought of an idea, and have just come up with this:


See if you remember me!
A friend who lent a hand:
Not a major player
Nor a farer from my land.

Didn't want the limelight
Wasn't even told!
Not a rebel, not a king,
Nor a warrior bold.

Popped in for a little while,
But then I had to go -
Have you all forgotten me?
I think you have, you know!

[Galadriel55]

Nellas? Saved Turin's reputation in Doriath but he didn't evenremember his childhood friend?

[Pervinca Took]

Afraid not.

[Galadriel55]

Fatty Bolger? Though seeing as he was arrested he was a bit of a rebel.

[Pervinca Took]

Close! 'Not a rebel' was to rule out Fatty, because he led a band of rebels and was put in the Lockholes for it.

[Urwen]

Farmer Maggot, then?

[Pervinca Took]

Not Farmer Maggot. He didn't pop in ... they popped in to him.

[Urwen]

Folco Boffin?

[Pervinca Took]

Correct! Your turn.

[Urwen]

Here is the riddle which I originally posted yesterday


We were there once
We stood proud on our own
But then darkness crept upon us
And we were cast down


The Great Ones created us
In north and south is where we used to dwell
But we didn't expect
To be torn down by the powers fell

[Pervinca Took]

The Dunedain?

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Pervinca Took]

The Lamps of the Valar?

[Urwen]

Thr Lamps of the Valar?


So fast.... :(


I thought this one would take a while.

[Pervinca Took]

'North and south' was a big hint.

Here's another quick one:

Broken, scattered, torn apart?
Yet to the end the story's heart.

[Urwen]

The Silmarili?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

The Fellowship of the Ring? (As in, the group itself, not the book)

[Pervinca Took]

Yes! :)

Over to you.

[Urwen]

Time for another song-inspired riddle


Born from grief
Taught to hate
There is no relief
For someone unable to resist his own fate

Bringer of darkness
Of destruction and ruin
All because of madness
That came from deep within

[Pervinca Took]

Voldemort. :D

[Urwen]

Voldemort. :D


Well, technically correct, but.....wrong book. :p

[Pervinca Took]

Well, it *sounds* like Turin.

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Huinesoron]

Maeglin? 'Born from grief, taught to hate' seems to cut the field down quite a lot - most of the sad parents (Rian, for instance) just sort of moped rather than explicitly raising their kids to be angry.

hS

[Urwen]

Maeglin? 'Born from grief, taught to hate' seems to cut the field down quite a lot - most of the sad parents (Rian, for instance) just sort of moped rather than explicitly raising their kids to be angry.

hS


Ey, it be inspired by t'is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRwulXTGhKU). A perfect song for him. ;)

[Huinesoron]

^_^ Isn't it just?

A very quick one:

Water claimed the Pillar --
Fire claimed the Tree --
Earth claimed the Star --
-- but Light endured.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

The drowning of Numenor?

[Huinesoron]

The drowning of Numenor?

Correct! I was charmed by the coincidence ("There are no coincidences.") that Numenor has things named for most of the chief sources of light in Arda, and decided to make a riddle out of it. (In hindsight, I should have used Isildur and Anarion to end with 'the Sun and Moon endured'. Ah, well. :))

Over to you!

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Tower - Meneltarma?
Fire - Did Ar-Pharazon burn the tree?

Star - well, it's not the island itself. Water claimed that. Was the Star circlet/fillet thing lost?

Light?

[Huinesoron]

The Pillar is Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven. Sauron had the White Tree burned. And yes, the Star is Numenor itself - pretty sure an earthquake had a part in taking it out (also I didn't want to repeat Water...). Light is just the general principle that the good parts of Numenor escaped.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

That's actually quite beautiful.

Speaking of which:

Gone to death untimely
Quite a girl of fame:
Feisty, sure! And beautiful?
Or is that just her name?

[Urwen]

Vanimelde?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

Finduilas?

[Pervinca Took]

Nope.

[Urwen]

Well, then there is no name which incorporates both 'feisty' and 'beautiful' in it. :/


Except maybe Vana, who is immortal.


And believe me, I've checked the etymology of every single name given to a female character, ever.

[Pervinca Took]

It doesn't need to incorporate 'feisty' - that is followed by a 'sure.' It's only 'beautiful' that is followed by a question mark.

[Urwen]

Belladonna?

[Pervinca Took]

That's the one!

[Urwen]

All right, I'm not gonna pretend my riddles are hard anymore, so have at it.


Me, who never saw the light of Aman
Though I have seen countless days
I have done great things,
And so did you

She, the silent watcher
The teacher and the protector
She stayed away from limelight
Except for that one time

Me and her, we both loved you
In our own ways
And even though I felt some doubt
It never led me astray

Me and you once fought side by side
My weapons and your sword
We fought against the tides
But that time is no more

Fate let you and me
Fight side by side once again
Until you were taken away
In the end, I was slain

You met the same fate
As I had by your hands
You were found too late
When it was already done

She lived on still
As was the One's will
But you and I no longer stand
Or walk together upon this land

[Huinesoron]

... er...

So a lot of this sounds like Nienor to Turin, but there's also a lot that... doesn't. I think the resonances are intentional, though whether on your part or Tolkien's I couldn't say.

I'm trying to conjure up someone who killed someone they loved, while leaving a woman alive, and it's not coming to me. The tradegy still evokes Turin, but the only woman who survives that story is Morwen, and she definitely didn't stand aside.

hS

[Urwen]

You are right, Turin is one of the people involved, but Nienor isn't. There are three different people referenced in the riddle.


Also, methinks that you forgot someone else, just as Turin had in canon. :p

[Huinesoron]

Oh! Um, hang on, is it... Beleg? To Turin, with 'her' being S... um... Nellas? Something like that.

If so, the sneaky part (other than not being the expected 'characters who love Turin' set) is that the second-to-last verse feels like it implies (but doesn't actually) that Turin's death came close on the heels of Beleg's. Which is clever worduse!

hS

[Urwen]

You're correct. Please proceed.


Oh! Um, hang on, is it... Beleg? To Turin, with 'her' being S... um... Nellas? Something like that.

If so, the sneaky part (other than not being the expected 'characters who love Turin' set) is that the second-to-last verse feels like it implies (but doesn't actually) that Turin's death came close on the heels of Beleg's. Which is clever worduse!

hS


Well, I am allowed to be sneaky, am I not? :p


Also, in CoH, Beleg is stated to have loved Turin by the author himself, which is where the main idea came from, and then I included Nellas to make it a bit more harder.

[Huinesoron]

Sneaky is good! I liked it - definitely made me have to think.

Star bright, far sight
Over who three princes fight
Borne in rescue, borne in flight,
Resting now in waters white.

hS

[Urwen]

The Silmarils. One is in the skies, one is in the chasm, and one was chucked into the sea by Maglor.

[Huinesoron]

I like it, but no. There is a single answer to this one.

hS

[Urwen]

The Silmaril Beren liberated then?

[Pervinca Took]

Is it the Star of the Dunedain?

[Huinesoron]

Not any of the Silmarils, nor the Star of the Dunedain, which... is a thing I literally learnt about just now, that's pretty cool!

hS

[Urwen]

Elwing?

[Huinesoron]

Not her either.

Of the guesses so far, 'Star of the Dunedain' is closest in time and general area.

Closest. Not close.

hS

[Urwen]

Numenor?

[Huinesoron]

The answer coexisted with Numenor, but also survived past it.

hS

[Urwen]

Palantir?

[Huinesoron]

It IS a Palantir!

... but which one, and why? :)

hS

[Urwen]

The one in Osgiliath fits best. Osgiliath translates as the Dome of the Stars and its Palantir fell into Anduin during the civil war.

[Huinesoron]

Not the Osgiliath-stone; there's another that fits the third and (especially) second lines better.

hS

[Urwen]

Then it must be the one on Amon Sul.


The palantír of Amon Sûl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathertop), most powerful of the three in Arnor, was kept for centuries in the Watchtower of Amon Sûl. When Arnor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnor) was divided into three kingdoms, all of them claimed Amon Sûl, largely because of the palantír. Just before Angmar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angmar) captured and destroyed the Watchtower in T.A. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Age) 1409, the Stone was removed and taken to Fornost (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnor#Fornost). It remained there until Fornost too was overrun, when Arvedui (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvedui) took it to Forochel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forodwaith). It was lost in T.A. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Age) 1975 when the ship on which he was travelling foundered in the ice.

[Huinesoron]

Then it must be the one on Amon Sul.

Correct!

Star bright - The Palantiri were represented on the banners of Elendil's ships by seven stars
Far sight - translation of 'Palantir'
Over who three princes fight - Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur squabbled over the Amon Sul stone
Borne in rescue - the Amon Sul stone was rescued from the Witch-King's attack and taken to Fornost
Borne in flight - Arvedui took it with him when he fled the fall of Arthedain
Resting now in waters white - it sank with the king (and the Annuminas stone) into the icy-white waters off Forochel.

Over to you, Urwen, and well earned!

hS

[Urwen]

I kinda had a riddle in mind, but you inspired me to make a better one, so here goes.


By hands of the fair folk was I made
In the ages past
For a long time I was lost
Until the kinsman of the hero found me at last


I was passed to the savior
And I served him well
I gave him a warning
His enemies' approach I could foretell

[Galadriel55]

Sting?


The riddles go by so fast I can barely catch any unsolved. :D

[Huinesoron]

Agree with Sting as most likely, though writing Bilbo off as 'kinsman of the hero' amuses me. ^_^ Maybe Biter Orcrist instead? It may have been found by one of the other dwarves before being given to Thorin.

... I've just been reminded that the movies have Legolas taking Orcrist and using it for almost the entirety of B5A, because apparently letting Thorin use his own sword was just too much for Jackson. -_-

hS

[Urwen]

Sting?


The riddles go by so fast I can barely catch any unsolved. :D



That's correct.





Agree with Sting as most likely, though writing Bilbo off as 'kinsman of the hero' amuses me. ^_^ Maybe Biter Orcrist instead? It may have been found by one of the other dwarves before being given to Thorin.

... I've just been reminded that the movies have Legolas taking Orcrist and using it for almost the entirety of B5A, because apparently letting Thorin use his own sword was just too much for Jackson. -_-

hS


I was focusing on LoTR-verse for the most part, and Bilbo wasn't one there. :p


Sorry.


P.S: Since when can Orcrist foretell when the enemies approach?

[Pervinca Took]

Glamdring and Orcrist both glitter blue when orcs are near. They're of elvish make and from the same hoard as Sting.

[Huinesoron]

Glamdring and Orcrist both glitter blue when orcs are near. They're of elvish make and from the same hoard as Sting.

It "gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached" (The Hobbit).

Which, come to think of it, makes a certain sense for a blade of Gondolin. It's the ultimate early-warning system: if Morgoth ever finds the city and sends his armies, the king's own sword(s) will let him know about it.

(Of course, for that to work they would have to detect Orcs as far away as the Echoriath, which must be multiple miles. Given that neither Glamdring nor Sting picked up on the Orcs infesting Moria until the Fellowship could already hear them, I guess the enchantment must have faded over the ages?)

hS

[Urwen]

Glamdring and Orcrist both glitter blue when orcs are near. They're of elvish make and from the same hoard as Sting.


Didn't know that.



Did you know that there is a fan theory that all three of those were made by Maeglin?

[Huinesoron]

Did you know that there is a fan theory that all three of those were made by Maeglin?

Ooh! Tell me more! :D

I'm guessing it's partly because his father was a swordsmith and the only named maker of enchanted (well, cursed) blades?

It would also make a twisted, evil sense for Maeglin to make swords to specifically detect Orcs - it would focus everyone's attention on that one possible enemy, letting him be wicked without undue suspicion. But perhaps this is an overly-uncharitable view of Maeglin.

hS

[Urwen]

Ooh! Tell me more! :D

I'm guessing it's partly because his father was a swordsmith and the only named maker of enchanted (well, cursed) blades?

It would also make a twisted, evil sense for Maeglin to make swords to specifically detect Orcs - it would focus everyone's attention on that one possible enemy, letting him be wicked without undue suspicion. But perhaps this is an overly-uncharitable view of Maeglin.

hS


Sure. This theory also states that he made them to help Orcs rather than hinder them, with the blue light that the swords emitted serving as a homing beacon.

[Huinesoron]

Sure. This theory also states that he made them to help Orcs rather than hinder them, with the blue light that the swords emitted serving as a homing beacon.

Oh. Oh, wow. That's even more evil than I expected.

It seems Maeglin was noted for forging swords 'of steel stronger than had been seen before' (Tolkien Gateway), so it certainly makes sense. And the fact that Glamdring and Orcrist were a mated pair, like Anglachel and Anguirel made by Eol, fits neatly. Oh, and Anglachel glowed... There's certainly more evidence than my 'Nellas is Legolas' mother' theory, for instance. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Anyway, let's wait for the new riddle.

[Galadriel55]

Coming right up in an hour or so

[Galadriel55]

In the tradition of fast riddles:


If you think me plain,
You'll get what you give.

An eye for an eye,
A limb for a limb.
I'll double your riches and match you for distance,
To stars in the heavens I'll add in their brilliance,
But bad won't be good, and thick won't be thin.

But I can do more,
I'll whisk you away
On a single condition,
If you aren't afraid.
You give me trust and you'll get back much more.
Just take care - you won't be the same as before.

[Huinesoron]

This feels like a reflection; the mention of stars makes me think of Mirrormere and Durin's Crown, but the third stanza doesn't seem to match that, so I'm not sure.

hS

[Galadriel55]

This feels like a reflection; the mention of stars makes me think of Mirrormere and Durin's Crown, but the third stanza doesn't seem to match that, so I'm not sure.

hS

Go on. ;)

(To clarify - it's not Mirrowmere)

[Huinesoron]

Okay... 'whisk you away' sounds like a river, but I'm having trouble reconciling 'reflection' with 'fast-flowing'. Tolkien liked to put reflections on perfectly still water (Mirrormere, Aeluin), not on flowing rivers.

And that second-to-last line really has me baffled. It could just be an expansion on the theme that taking a journey widens your world, but it feels more mystical than that. The only explicitly magical rivers I can think of are the Withywindle (which won't 'whisk you away') and the Forest River of Mirkwood (which I don't think reflected anything, due to the... y'know, murk).

Anduin, on general principles?

hS

[Urwen]

Makes me think of Mirror of Galadriel.

[Galadriel55]

Makes me think of Mirror of Galadriel.

Correct!

Care to explain?

[Urwen]

Well, in the words of the owner, it lets you see things that were, things that are, and some things that may yet come to pass. The future it shows may never come to pass unless the future is prevented by the viewer in the first place.

[Urwen]

Well, since Galadriel55 isn't here and already said I am correct, I might as well continue




Come to me, the eldest one
Come to my land
Come to my domain
Where you and your kin dared to tread


Come to me, the third one
Bearer of your grandfather's name
You and your kin sought the treasure
Which was your father's claim to fame


You were captured
Trapped on the mountain high
And while you were saved
It came at a price

[Galadriel55]

Well, in the words of the owner, it lets you see things that were, things that are, and some things that may yet come to pass. The future it shows may never come to pass unless the future is prevented by the viewer in the first place.

Indeed, it lets you do all that, on the condition that you don't touch the water. :)

Your riddle makes me think about Dwarves for some reason. :confused:

[Urwen]

Nope, not a dwarf, mwahahaha!

[Galadriel55]

Well the other thing with a ring is Maedhros. He's the eldest of Feanor's sons, who sought the Silmarils which are Feanor's famous creation. He was captured and trapped on a mountain and lost a hand in his escape. But I don't get the Grandfather thing. And the first stanza sounds like it's the earth itself speaking, Beleriand or ME perhaps - calling Maedhros into the cracks to his death, on the land to which the Noldor dared come in defiance of the Valar.

[Huinesoron]

Agree with Maedhros; his Father-name was Nelyafinwe, 'Third Finwe', because the House of Finwe has seriously messed-up naming patterns (Finwe originally named each of his sons simply 'Finwe', and then added adjectives to them when he thought of them - so Finwe Feanaro became Curufinwe, 'skilled Finwe', who himself continued the pattern by naming every single one of his sons 'something-Finwe'. Curufin is literally named after him. I am genuinely shocked to find that Celebrimbor is his son's Father-name - I assumed Curufin would have stuck to the pattern.).

If the speaker isn't Middle-earth itself, it could be Morgoth, probably about the time of the Nirnaeth, since it post-dates Maedhros' capture and release, and that's the next time he tries to attack Angband. Failing that, Thingol claimed Beleriand as his land, and knew Finwe, so would be expected to describe Maedhros with reference to him. In that case it would be less an invitation, more a prophecy - for, after Thingol's death, Maedhros did enter his lands... for the Second Kinslaying.

hS

[Urwen]

Well the other thing with a ring is Maedhros. He's the eldest of Feanor's sons, who sought the Silmarils which are Feanor's famous creation. He was captured and trapped on a mountain and lost a hand in his escape. But I don't get the Grandfather thing. And the first stanza sounds like it's the earth itself speaking, Beleriand or ME perhaps - calling Maedhros into the cracks to his death, on the land to which the Noldor dared come in defiance of the Valar.


:)

[Urwen]

Agree with Maedhros; his Father-name was Nelyafinwe, 'Third Finwe', because the House of Finwe has seriously messed-up naming patterns (Finwe originally named each of his sons simply 'Finwe', and then added adjectives to them when he thought of them - so Finwe Feanaro became Curufinwe, 'skilled Finwe', who himself continued the pattern by naming every single one of his sons 'something-Finwe'. Curufin is literally named after him. I am genuinely shocked to find that Celebrimbor is his son's Father-name - I assumed Curufin would have stuck to the pattern.).

If the speaker isn't Middle-earth itself, it could be Morgoth, probably about the time of the Nirnaeth, since it post-dates Maedhros' capture and release, and that's the next time he tries to attack Angband. Failing that, Thingol claimed Beleriand as his land, and knew Finwe, so would be expected to describe Maedhros with reference to him. In that case it would be less an invitation, more a prophecy - for, after Thingol's death, Maedhros did enter his lands... for the Second Kinslaying.

hS


I am a bit of First Age afficionado. It's way more interesting than Third Age, or Second Age (even though it gave us Tar-Miriel). Most of my favorites lived in the First Age too.

[Urwen]

Actually, Huinesoron explained the riddle better, so maybe the turn should go to him.

[Galadriel55]

Gotta leave for work, will write something when I return.

Urwen, can you confirm the speaker?

I am a bit of First Age afficionado. It's way more interesting than Third Age, or Second Age (even though it gave us Tar-Miriel). Most of my favorites lived in the First Age too.

First Age has a charm of its own, and I'm a fan. Third Age too. Second Age though is not a favourite. Meh, we all have something that resonates more.

Edit - cross-posted with the last. By all means!

[Urwen]

Gotta leave for work, will write something when I return.

Urwen, can you confirm the speaker?



First Age has a charm of its own, and I'm a fan. Third Age too. Second Age though is not a favourite. Meh, we all have something that resonates more.

Edit - cross-posted with the last. By all means!


Sure. It's Morgoth.


(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeP6rrm1lt0)

[Huinesoron]

Actually, Huinesoron explained the riddle better, so maybe the turn should go to him.

No, no, it definitely goes to Galadriel55. But to tide you over until she returns from work, I'll offer up a non-riddling riff on the marvel that is William McGonagall's The Tay Bridge Disaster (http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/gems/the-tay-bridge-disaster).

Beautiful star-domed Bridge of Osgiliath!
Alas! I am very sorry it hath
Collapsed into Anduin from the Usurper's wrath
In 1437, it was quite a bloodbath
Which will be remember'd in the long aftermath.

As soon as the catastrophe came to be known
The alarm from mouth to mouth was blown,
And the cry rang out all o’er the town,
Good Heavens! Osgiliath Bridge is blown down,
And the great Palantir of Elendil,
Which King Eldacar's heart with sorrow did fill,
Has sunk into the waters white,
Oh! What a terrible and truly awful sight
Has befallen Osgiliath in 1437's bloodbath,
Which will be remember'd in the long aftermath.

It must have been an awful sight,
To witness in the dusky moonlight,
When the Usurper did rage, and angry did laugh
And burned the piers of the Bridge of Osgiliath
Oh! Ill-fated Bridge of Osgiliath grey
I must now conclude my lay
By telling the world fearlessly without the least dismay,
That your central pillars would not have given way,
At least many sensible men do say,
Had they been supported on each side with buttresses,
At least many sensible men confesses,
For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed.

I am so very sorry. ^_^

(I confess to being another First Age fan. I've always felt that Tolkien's heart was more in Beleriand than in the lands that came after. Plus, elves are more interesting than diminutive rural English folk... >: D)

hS

[Urwen]

No, no, it definitely goes to Galadriel55. But to tide you over until she returns from work, I'll offer up a non-riddling riff on the marvel that is William McGonagall's The Tay Bridge Disaster (http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/gems/the-tay-bridge-disaster).



I am so very sorry. ^_^

(I confess to being another First Age fan. I've always felt that Tolkien's heart was more in Beleriand than in the lands that came after. Plus, elves are more interesting than diminutive rural English folk... >: D)

hS


What do you think of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4D4JwvGn-E


I think this is pretty well-made song

[Urwen]

Still waiting

[Pervinca Took]

(I confess to being another First Age fan. I've always felt that Tolkien's heart was more in Beleriand than in the lands that came after. Plus, elves are more interesting than diminutive rural English folk... >: D)

hS

The one reason why LOTR is still, just, my favourite is the character of Frodo. I love the elvishness in LOTR - always did - but now I wish there was more of it. But then, my favourite character is a very *elvish* hobbit. I'd also describe myself as a hobbit with a strong dash of elf. :D

The earlier lands attract me more nowadays than the Third Age ones too ... although I do love the Shire.

I always found Rohan and Gondor a bit of a bore, if I'm honest.

[Urwen]

From the third age, I love Frodo and Eowyn, and that's about it.


Also, still waiting for the new riddle.... :(

[Galadriel55]

Also, still waiting for the new riddle.... :(

Oi! People get 10 days to write a new question. You don't give me 10 hours!

[Urwen]

Oi! People get 10 days to write a new question. You don't give me 10 hours!


Well, the 10 day rule isn't followed either, considering that people have protested me taking over even after 10 days have passed in the past.

[Galadriel55]

A title to three:
One justly named,
One falsely named,
The last for the first.

[Galadriel55]

Well, the 10 day rule isn't followed either, considering that people have protested me taking over even after 10 days have passed in the past.

So the solution is to shorten the time to less than a single day?

[Urwen]

So the solution is to shorten the time to less than a single day?


I am merely saying that it should apply for everyone, and that people should quit protesting when I take advantage of it.

[Urwen]

The Golden, a title shared by Glaurung, Smaug and Pharazon?

[Huinesoron]

So the solution is to shorten the time to less than a single day?

I think we're all just really excited to have two! whole! active! threads! on the Downs.

As for the riddle... Urwen's mention of Ar-Pharazon gets me thinking about Ar-Adunakhor, who took the title 'Lord of the West' in reference to Manwe. But I don't think there's a third instance (or second, if Adunakhor is the third).

I don't believe any of the various kings and stewards hit a 'the Third'.

(I quite like 'the Golden', for the record, but I figured it was worth another guess... :))

hS

[Galadriel55]

I think we're all just really excited to have two! whole! active! threads! on the Downs.

I know! Like I actually have to check the subforum and not simply click on the most recent thread linked on the main page. :D

I'm afraid neither title is the one I'm looking for. I can see how Lord of the West works for "justly" and "falsely", but the Golden characters don't really match the description. Before you go digging, it's not anything obscure.

[Urwen]

'The Old' then?

[Galadriel55]

Nope.

[Urwen]

The Faithful?

[Galadriel55]

Nope. More obvious than that.

[Urwen]

The Fair?

[Galadriel55]

No. I realize the riddle is somewhat vague, but there are descriptions that match the title holders. Can you match them to the specific individuals with your titles?

[Urwen]

Well, I could have matched holders of 'The Old' title, but you said no to that.


Anyway, my last guess is 'The White', otherwise I'm clueless.

[Huinesoron]

An oddball guess: 'Greenleaf', as the original and Fourth Age names of Mirkwood (the latter being named for the former), and in between, of an elf lad who did not have green leaves.

Also wondering about 'Lorien': the forest in Aman, the Vala, and our Lothlorien. The Vala of Dreams is only named Lorien after his home, so 'falsely' kind of applies.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Still no answer.

I was thinking about what hints can help you without giving it away. It's a title. Say it aloud if it helps.

[Urwen]

Still no answer.

I was thinking about what hints can help you without giving it away. It's a title. Say it aloud if it helps.


Oh, you mean, it's not a title of a person, but rather a title of a book?


And the only book which pertains to 'three' is CoH.

[Galadriel55]

Nope.

[Urwen]

Then what are you getting at? An anagram? A homophone?

[Pervinca Took]

The Lord of the Rings ... applied to Sauron, Frodo (wrongly) * and the book, in reference to Sauron?

* By Pippin in Rivendell, after his recovery.

[Galadriel55]

The Lord of the Rings ... applied to Sauron, Frodo (wrongly) and the book, in reference to Sauron?

Well done! A perfect explanation. Over to you. :)

[Pervinca Took]

I got it right? Cool! :)

Unhappy once, I now am blessed.
Whate'er you think, I do not jest!
Since friendship is a gift divine
I dwindle, but I do not pine.

[Urwen]

Legolas?

[Pervinca Took]

No to Legolas. Nice idea, though. I suppose he'd have dwindled eventually had he not sailed west.

Pasting it here because we are on a new page:

Unhappy once, I now am blessed.
Whate'er you think, I do not jest!
Since friendship is a gift divine
I dwindle, but I do not pine.

[Urwen]

Treebeard?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

Frodo?

[Pervinca Took]

Nope.

A nice thought, though, (apart from the dwindling).

[Urwen]

What does 'dwindle' mean in this context? Someone who lingers behind or someone who withers?

[Pervinca Took]

That's for you to work out. :D

I will say, though, that it is not an elvish kind of dwindling, and the answer, too, is not an elf.

Look at the dictionary definition of 'dwindling.' I have used it quite literally.

[Urwen]

If we go by dictionary definition of dwindling, then it's 'I will diminish and go to the West' Nerwen

[Pervinca Took]

Nope.

Not an elf. (See my notes, above).

[Urwen]

Theoden?

[Pervinca Took]

Not a man either.

[Urwen]

Gollum?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

I suppose he kind of finds a friend in Frodo, but he doesn't stop pining for the Ring, and I don't think he becomes fully happy. Maybe in the last few seconds of his life?

[Urwen]

No.

I suppose he kind of finds a friend in Frodo, but he doesn't stop pining for the Ring, and I don't think he becomes fully happy. Maybe in the last few seconds of his life?


I was talking about his friendship with Deagol, actually.


Anyway, Bilbo?

[Pervinca Took]

Well, he wasn't dwindling at that point.

Not Bilbo either.

[Urwen]

Sam?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

There is a hobbit connection, but the answer is not a hobbit.

[Urwen]

I assume it's an object then.


The One Ring?

[Pervinca Took]

No. It's living.

[Urwen]

Bill the Pony?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

Well, nothing else is coming to me, and that drives me crazy.

[Pervinca Took]

Let's give it a bit longer, until our friends over the pond are awake and have had a chance. Then I'll give another hint.

There's always the password thread!

[Galadriel55]

Not an Elf, not a Man, not a Hobbit, but living. Tom Bombadil! Though I'm not sure he was ever unhappy.

[Pervinca Took]

Big hint now for everyone: think POETRY.

Which is perhaps a good reason *not* to think of Bombadil, (who is not the answer). :D

[Pervinca Took]

And because it's now quite far up the page:

Unhappy once, I now am blessed.
Whate'er you think, I do not jest!
Since friendship is a gift divine
I dwindle, but I do not pine.

[Urwen]

As in, Tolkien poems? There are a lot of those......

[Urwen]

Eureka! It's the Troll!


and smaller the old Troll seemed to be,
as he grew more and more.

[Pervinca Took]

Perfect - that's the exact quotation I was thinking of, too!

It's the troll from 'Perry-the-Winkle.'

The hobbit connection is the hobbits in the poem, and the fact that Bilbo probably wrote it, (I think). (Although thinking about it, it mentions the Lockholes, which I am not sure existed as such before around the Scouring, so maybe Sam wrote it?)

I said a 'living thing,' although I suppose the characters in the poem are fictions *within* Tolkien's fiction. ;)

[Urwen]

Here's a little ditty I made up on the spot



Now we ride into the battle
And into the red morn
Our armors clink and rattle
Followed by sound of the horn

We wouldn't listen to their warning
For this is our choice to make
And with the dawn of the morning
This is the path we'll take

A creature of darkness stands in our path
He's tall and he brings fear
Large is his wrath
But it'll all end right here

We'll hold our own
And follow the words of old
We'll bring the enemy down
As the prophecy foretold

[Pervinca Took]

The Rohirrim, and the prophecy regarding the Witch-King?

[Urwen]

Close, but not that. It's, shall I say, more selective than that.

[Huinesoron]

Eowyn and Merry specifically, during the Pelennor? They were both warned against going to war, but chose to do so anyway, and it was their actions that destroyed the Witch-King.

hS

[Urwen]

Eowyn and Merry specifically, during the Pelennor? They were both warned against going to war, but chose to do so anyway, and it was their actions that destroyed the Witch-King.

hS


Perfect. ^^

[Huinesoron]

I am Gold.
I take what I want, looking ever higher:
From the centre
To the east
Even to the west.
In the end I claim my desire, and am forgotten.
I am Gold.

I am Bejewelled.
I stride the decks, secure in my pride.
I claim blood
For my blood;
In blood I fall.
In the end my heirs are lesser and greater than I.
I am Bejewelled.

I am Wolf.
I claim a hand; I claim a throne.
I am denied,
I return,
I rule the winter long.
In the end I fall, avenging son slain by avenging son.
I am Wolf.

You may find multiple characters along the way, but the answer to the riddle is one word that links the three verses together.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I wonder if Bejewelled is Ar-Pharazon and Wolf is Carcharoth.

[Huinesoron]

No and no. Ar-Pharazon had no heirs, and... actually Carcharoth would work quite well for the Wolf text if 'avenging son' was metaphorical, but it's not him. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Gold=Maglor?


And if I am right about the other two, then the riddle answer is Silmaril.

[Huinesoron]

Not Maglor or Silmaril in this case. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Glaurung?

[Pervinca Took]

Huey, how do you put your text in that box? It makes it impossible for us to quote/paste it, but I can't see why you would want to prevent us.

[Urwen]

I can paste it.


I am Gold.
I take what I want, looking ever higher:
From the centre
To the east
Even to the west.
In the end I claim my desire, and am forgotten.
I am Gold.

I am Bejewelled.
I stride the decks, secure in my pride.
I claim blood
For my blood;
In blood I fall.
In the end my heirs are lesser and greater than I.
I am Bejewelled.

I am Wolf.
I claim a hand; I claim a throne.
I am denied,
I return,
I rule the winter long.
In the end I fall, avenging son slain by avenging son.
I am Wolf.



See?

[Pervinca Took]

Very helpful.

Or would be, if you said how.

[Urwen]

Well, you select the text, right click, click copy in the menu, then go to the reply window, right click and click paste.

[Galadriel55]

Huey, how do you put your text in that box? It makes it impossible for us to quote/paste it, but I can't see why you would want to prevent us.

I think it's just a quote box without any name on the quote.

Checking my theory now.


I am turned off by the word "decks", cause it seems to imply a ship, and all my potential answers were never involved with seafaring. Might help someone else though.

[Urwen]

I think that one of the answers is indeed Phary, but he's 'Gold' rather than Bejewelled.

[Huinesoron]

I think it's just a quote box without any name on the quote.

Ah, yes, it is. I've been using it to set the riddle visually apart - didn't realise it was causing problems. Italics only from now on, I promise!

I am turned off by the word "decks", cause it seems to imply a ship, and all my potential answers were never involved with seafaring. Might help someone else though.

There is a definite seafaring connection for Bejewelled.

I think that one of the answers is indeed Phary, but he's 'Gold' rather than Bejewelled.

Correct! Gold is Ar-Pharazon the Golden. Expanding a little on why might help point towards the overall answer (and so, of course, I won't).

(Glaurung is none of the answers, for the record.)

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, so Bejewelled is probably Isildur, who escaped Numenor, and later took the Ring from Sauron. And the wolf is Sauron himself, who took that form in order to slay Huan.


Which means that the answer to the riddle is Numenor.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so Bejewelled is probably Isildur, who escaped Numenor, and later took the Ring from Sauron. And the wolf is Sauron himself, who took that form in order to slay Huan.

Which means that the answer to the riddle is Numenor.

No and no, I'm afraid. Bejewelled and Wolf have the same connection to their characters as Gold does to Pharazon.

(Except in Bejewelled's case it's not quite that simple, because... ah, that'd be telling.)

hS

[Urwen]

Turin for Wolf?

[Huinesoron]

Not Turin either.

hS

[Urwen]

Draugluin?

[Huinesoron]

Not Draugluin.

'Avenging son' is literal in both instances - no metaphor allowed.

In fact, I think the only non-literal language in the entire riddle might be the use of 'centre' to describe Numenor. Might have missed some borderline cases though.

hS

[Urwen]

And that fits Turin better than anyone else.


Oh wait, I see.....It's not Turin, it's someone killed by Turin.

[Huinesoron]

It's nothing to do with Turin, I'm afraid. :) At least an Age off, if not more.

hS

[Urwen]

But there are no people nicknamed Wolf in Second or Third or Fourth age.

[Huinesoron]

But there are no people nicknamed Wolf in Second or Third or Fourth age.

I'm afraid you are wrong about that. ;)

Well, not nicknamed. But I doubt they nicknamed Pharazon 'Gold' either (though the idea of Team Elendil using it as a codename for him amuses me now).

hS

[Urwen]

The closest I can get is Narmacil, from Narmo.

[Galadriel55]

Are you looking for Wulf, who attacked Rohan during the time of Helm Hammerhand? He had ambitions of marrying Helm's daughter and apparently had some connection to the royal line. Of course he was denied, returned with an army and stayed the winter. Both Helm's sons were killed in that war, though I'm not sure how that relates to avenging.

[Urwen]

If Galadriel55 is correct, then I think the riddle answer is 'Usurper'. In which case, the Bejewelled is Castamir, further corroborated that his name ends with elvish word for 'jewel'.

[Huinesoron]

Are you looking for Wulf, who attacked Rohan during the time of Helm Hammerhand? He had ambitions of marrying Helm's daughter and apparently had some connection to the royal line. Of course he was denied, returned with an army and stayed the winter. Both Helm's sons were killed in that war, though I'm not sure how that relates to avenging.

Correct. Helm actually had Wulf's father killed, 4 years prior to his invasion. And, yes, slight mistake: Wulf was assassinated by an avenging nephew (on a stealth mission, no less). But he was still a Son of Rohan, I guess?

If Galadriel55 is correct, then I think the riddle answer is 'Usurper'. In which case, the Bejewelled is Castamir, further corroborated that his name ends with elvish word for 'jewel'.

Spot on! Castamir was Captain of Ships, hence the 'deck' thing. His name is a bit of a pain, since 'casta' isn't an attested element (the wikis suggest 'cassa', helm), but yes, that was the Bejewelled element.

The first Usurper I found didn't actually make it into the riddle: Herucalmo, husband of Tar-Vanimelde, who siezed the sceptre in his own right and reigned as Tar-Anducal for 20 years.

Well done all round, and over to Urwen!

hS

[Urwen]

I am descended from the Blessed
From Greycloak, and from Silverfoot
From Lover of the Sea and from Seafoam
I descended from all of them and more

One of my ancestors was lusted after
By their close kin
And though I didn't want it
I was forced into the same kind of sin

I tried to escape fate caused by another
Our sins I have tried to repent
But it was all in vain
And to the bottom of the sea I was sent

[Nerwen]

Tar-Míriel?

[Urwen]

Tar-Míriel?


Yes.

[Nerwen]

Urwen, I'm going to be on the road all of today and a lot of tomorrow, so if you have one ready, feel free to go instead of me.

[Urwen]

Here is a shorter one


Nine versus nine
A long road ahead
This road is mine
One which I must tread

[Galadriel55]

Sounds like the Fellowship and the Nazgul, with Frodo speaking.

[Urwen]

Yes. Should we continue, or wait for Nerwen?

[Pervinca Took]

I'm pretty sure Nerwen would say continue ... Galadriel has just guessed one, so it's her go.

[Galadriel55]

Ere elf sang or hammer rang,
Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon,
I was still whole, I dwelt alone.

Ere tree was hewn, they needed me.
A great force did tug at me,
But strong was my connection,
My land I would not leave.
From that day I was broken.

They came again to my domain,
And tree was hewed, and jewels were found,
And then no more they needed me
To leave the land, where I was stuck.
But I gave them protection,
I gave them a start.
I shall stay until I die,
They will all depart.


Have fun with it!

[Urwen]

Tom Bombadil?

[Galadriel55]

Not him.

[Urwen]

Rumil?

[Galadriel55]

Not him either.

[Urwen]

Eriol?

[Pervinca Took]

Am sure it's wrong, but I will try:

The Flame Imperishable.

[Galadriel55]

Not him either. Your answers so far follow a certain pattern. You could try exhausting the list, or... you could try thinking in a different direction. :)

Edit: crossed with Pervinca. This is in reference to Eriol.

[Galadriel55]

Am sure it's wrong, but I will try:

The Flame Imperishable.

Sorry, cross-posted. I like this answer, but unfortunately it's not correct. :p

[Urwen]

Iluvatar?

[Galadriel55]

No, not that direction either. :)

[Galadriel55]

Ere elf sang or hammer rang,
Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon,
I was still whole, I dwelt alone.

Ere tree was hewn, they needed me.
A great force did tug at me,
But strong was my connection,
My land I would not leave.
From that day I was broken.

They came again to my domain,
And tree was hewed, and jewels were found,
And then no more they needed me
To leave the land, where I was stuck.
But I gave them protection,
I gave them a start.
I shall stay until I die,
They will all depart.

[Urwen]

I am confused....The riddle implies it's about someone who existed before elves awoke, but it's not any of the guesses already made......


Treebeard, maybe?

[Galadriel55]

I am confused....The riddle implies it's about someone who existed before elves awoke, but it's not any of the guesses already made......


Treebeard, maybe?

I would not have used the Ent riddle in a riddle about Ents. That would just be boring. :p

Think a little outside the box.

[Huinesoron]

Is it the Isle of Balar? Originally part of Tol Eressea, which 'dwelt alone' in the midst of Belgaer, it was broken off during one of the ferry trips (I want to say the second one, when Osse tried to hold Eressea in place to keep the Teleri from leaving). Much later, Cirdan and Gil-Galad's people fled to Balar and built havens there, which ended up being the refuge of all the surviving non-Kinslaying Eldar through the War of Wrath, at the end of which Balar was consumed by the waves.

The only line that confused me for a while after thinking this was 'jewels are found', but it seems pearls were common in the shallows around Balar, so that fits too.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Is it the Isle of Balar? Originally part of Tol Eressea, which 'dwelt alone' in the midst of Belgaer, it was broken off during one of the ferry trips (I want to say the second one, when Osse tried to hold Eressea in place to keep the Teleri from leaving). Much later, Cirdan and Gil-Galad's people fled to Balar and built havens there, which ended up being the refuge of all the surviving non-Kinslaying Eldar through the War of Wrath, at the end of which Balar was consumed by the waves.

The only line that confused me for a while after thinking this was 'jewels are found', but it seems pearls were common in the shallows around Balar, so that fits too.

hS

Indeed so! *Bows out*

Urwen, you should know by now that most of my riddles aren't people. :p

[Huinesoron]

Urwen, you should know by now that most of my riddles aren't people. :p

In fairness I should note that I was already predisposed to think up inanimate answers after watching everyone guess people for my last riddle.

Anyway! This one is not a landmass or building. You're looking for who and when:

I hunt for giants and ogres vile
But none can find on any trail.
In the dark the truth I seek
But all I find's a sudden squeak.

hS

[Huinesoron]

It's been a couple of days, so a hint... I originally wrote 'in any tale' rather than 'on any trail', which is far more accurate.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I can't get rid of a hobbitish feeling. Bilbo and Gollum's riddling?

[Huinesoron]

I can't get rid of a hobbitish feeling. Bilbo and Gollum's riddling?

That's the correct timeframe, but the answer here is a single person in a single, well-defined period of time.

hS