Riddles in the Downs

[Gothmog]

How about Ungoliant? The master=Morgoth, his successor aka apprentice=Sauron. The daughter=Shelob. I dont' quite get the "ab the domen"-part, but it may hint about the abdomen...

[ninja91]

Correct! now, to clear something up: you can see my prey, but only ab the domen. as in you could see her dead prey at her abdomen.
Do you have one in mind?

[Gothmog]

Oh, sorry, I just noticed that I was the reason this thread died! I'll get you a new one, but I can't guarantee the quality of it... Here it goes:

Two legs left
One all right
Befriended with him whose fate
was dark as the night

Pretty easy, I think. Good luck!

[Gil-Galad]

Hmmm... keeps making me think of Gothmog because in the film hs is shown having a limp in his leg, plus he was alligned with the Witch-King...

[Gothmog]

Hmmm... keeps making me think of Gothmog because in the film hs is shown having a limp in his leg, plus he was alligned with the Witch-King...
Sorry, that's not it... It's more of a book-riddle than a movie-riddle. Plus, it would be a bit too obvious if I gave you a riddle with the answer Gothmog :) Not that I'm in any way related to that 3rd age scum ;) Keep guessing!

[Gil-Galad]

Book-wise eh???


well i got To Beleg mainly for the last to verses cause they relate to Turin.

[mhagain]

Must be Sador (Labadal), from the Narn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Or Brandir, but he was not Túrin's friend, actually...

[Gothmog]

Must be Sador (Labadal), from the Narn.

Correct! And Legate, I didn't think of Brandir until you mentioned him, but he almost fits too... But Sador is the correct answer, the thread is yours mhagain!

[mhagain]

Thank you sir!

This one's either dead easy or really hard:

At the end of the third
I was there with no word
The last of my kin

When the last ship it sailed
On the grey shores I stayed
They never saw me again

And I'm still here today
But i'm keeping away
From all the strife and the din!

[The Might]

Cirdan perhaps

[mhagain]

Not Cirdan, but I can see how he fits in with most of it.

[Gothmog]

Makes me think of Arwen. But at the same time I get the feeling that I'm not thinking wide enough...

[mhagain]

Not Arwen either, she wasn't the last of her kin.

[The Might]

I have an idea

It might be Durin VII

He was there at the end of the third Thorin (descendant of Thorin III Stonehelm)
He was the last Durin
The Elves didn't see him again
And as some creatures in ME believe, Dwarves return to stone after their death, explaining the last verses

[Gil-Galad]

Radagast even maybe?

[mhagain]

All good guesses, and decent matches, but not who I was thinking of, sorry.

[The Might]

Tom Bombadil
still, I'd guess he was the only one of his kin as well

[mhagain]

Not Tom either, sorry. Hints anyone?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Treebeard?!??? (okay we are at the point of making up nonsenses now)

[mhagain]

OK, if we're making up nonsenses it's hint time.

This is not a Rings character, but he was around during the 3rd age.

[The Might]

Gildor Inglorion?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Maglor? :p He stayed there and they never saw him again, probably, he might have been around in the 3rd.

[mhagain]

Maglor? :p He stayed there and they never saw him again, probably, he might have been around in the 3rd.Take a bow, and take the floor. :cool:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Really? Oh, great... so... here goes the riddle:

High Elves, High Kings
asked for me.
What might or might
not have come back
over the Sea?
With seven stars,
with one of stones,
twice he had me.

[The Might]

the Silmaril?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

For some reason it got me thinking of Arwen. . .I don't really know why.

[The Might]

Elendilmir

[Valier]

Eärendil?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No. Think of the last line, and the part of

What might or might
not have come back
over the sea?

it has its meaning as well.

[The Might]

Anduril perhaps?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, no and no. Read it carefully and mind what I said before. Anduril certainly is not something

What might or might
not have come back
over the sea

[mhagain]

I think Glorfindel?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Again, not. I suggest everyone, read carefully the riddle. It has three parts, in general, so try to find out that the thing you guess fits well with every one of them. If you want more hints, ask.

High Elves, High Kings
asked for me.

What might or might
not have come back
over the Sea?

With seven stars,
with one of stones,
twice he had me.

[The Might]

Gandalf?

[Gil-Galad]

I'm thinking the Palantir now

and Orome too must mostly Palantir

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, still not right.
More guesses or should I give you a hint?

[The Might]

the Elessar perhaps

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You are right! It's the Elessar. It is nice that the two of us start ruling this forum as well... but when you weren't watching, someone else stole the first one from us. Okay, now seriously. For those of you who might be confused, the riddle refers to the Elessar as a thing, which was of interest for both the Kings of Edain and the High Elves (in UT, it is said that Elessar was made in Gondolin and went to Elwing and Eärendil, then there is a story of Galadriel wishing the Elessar were there). In UT there are two versions of how it came to Aragorn, one of them is that it was the original Elessar brought back from the Undying lands (where it was left by Eärendil), the other is that this Elessar is a different one made by Celebrimbor for Galadriel. And the last verses refer to Aragorn, as he had Elessar twice: he possessed the stone, and Elessar, of course, was his name by then.

TM it's your turn now.

[The Might]

I thought a lot about the Elendilmir in the beginning, since it was also made twice, and then I remembered the same is true about the Elendilmir
anyway, next riddle:

Graced by the touch of three ladies hands

Beneath hills I lie beyond mortal lands

By pride and greed my master was devoured,

My brother came to rest in the West-Tower.

[The Might]

no takers ???

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If the West-Tower were not there, I'd say Túrin Turambar.

...or had the three ladies not been there, I'd say twenty more completely different things :D

[The Might]

nope, not Turin...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Mmm, I don't know if anyone tried to solve this, but I spent some time on it now and I must say that am a quite perplex. Could you provide a little hint, please?

[The Might]

it is an obejct, not a person

and I know it's hard :D

[Wishmaster]

West Tower could be Annuminas and beyond mortal lands could be Tower of Avallone... :rolleyes: Stone of Annuminas..*is very confused now*

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I supposed it might be an object rather than a character when the Turin idea failed ;) I have thought about the Silmarilli, but I'm not sure. The hills don't fit.

[The Might]

sorry, but both answers are wrong :p

[Gil-Galad]

Beren perhaps?


a hint would be nice

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

TM, please, I hope it is not the Elendilmir!!!

[The Might]

lol....Gil-Galad, I doubt I would call Beren an object

not, not the Elendilmir

[Gil-Galad]

i so got to read more


it sounds like one of the rings of power...but which one... perhaps Galadriels ring... but then again the greed sounds more of a Dwarven one...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Arkenstone came up to my mind, but it has no "brothers" as far as I know.
wait... Orcrist? But no, I guess if you gave us one more little hint, it'd be fine ;)

[The Might]

it is not a ring...
and it is similar to the Elendilmir as far as origin is concerned

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A-hah, I think I finally got it! Well, that was some riddle, TM!

The "three ladies" are the Three Ruling Queens of Númenor,
"beneath hills beyond mortal lands" is on the shores of Aman under mountains in the Caves of the Forgotten, where
"the master who was devoured by greed and power", Ar-Pharazon, lies along with all his men till the Last Battle and the Judgement Day.
The "brother" is the sceptre of Annúminas (the West-Tower) which was made to replace the lost Sceptre of Númenor for the Arnorian kings.

Thus, Sceptre of Númenor is the answer.

[The Might]

yes :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm the last,
though there's one yet after me.
I know the river
But I don't know about sea.
Wicked hearts and arms of stone I knew
as well as little folk in ancient time
a wind from far and barren lands in view
With three legs; I can never move or die.

[The Might]

GREAT riddle Legate

I'd say Methedras

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thanks very much :) A praise from riddler of your caliber is really flattering.
Unfortunately, I have to inform you that Methedras is not the right answer :cool: Although, it was a very good attempt, it would almost fit, but there is something which fits even more.

[The Might]

I immediately thought of Carrock, as the last mountain peak of the Misty Mountains in the East
It was also the last ford to the north, but there was another after him, the Old Ford
it knew the river (Anduin), but not the sea
Wicked hearts...wolves and orcs also used it
And the arms of stone might refer to Beorn who made the stairs on the Carrock
Hobbits (little folk) had dwelt in that area in ancient times (even before settling in the Shire)
you could see far away from there, including barren lands in just about any direction
it can't move, nor die...but three legs...hmm

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, until you know for sure, you can't be sure :) Maybe the legs are the most difficult thing to come upon, but you are still somehow on right track. I'm sure you'll be able to make it.

[The Might]

hmm...three legs

I'd say the Redhorn Pass...
Hobbits used it in ancient times to get to Eriador
it had three legs (the three Mountains of Moria)
and there was a river (Silverlode)
the rest is true as well
it is also the last pass to in the Misty Mountains, followed north by the High Pass

now I'm pretty sure I'm right :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

now I'm pretty sure I'm right :D

Tra-la-lah, no-no-no, wrong, wrong, wrong! :D
I can tell you that possibly it's better to leave the legs out until you check all the other things, the leg thing is something like the last ensuring point, something very specific. It is not essential for solving the riddle. But when you know the right answer, it's no problem to check if the "leg" part also makes sense, then you'll know for sure that you are right.

[Gil-Galad]

The statues of Isildur and Anarion on the Anduin coem to mind first




I'm the last, - Isildur and Anarion were both last sons of Elendil

though there's one yet after me. - refernece to Aragorn

I know the river - they stand on either side of Anduin

But I don't know about sea. - again, river

Wicked hearts and arms of stone I knew - they lasted during the turbulent years of gondor

as well as little folk in ancient time - hobbits tend to live among anduin

a wind from far and barren lands in view - brown lands on one side

With three legs; I can never move or die. - i remember reading how one of the statues was build into the side of a mountain, so they may have only carved one of their legs... i remember reading that, and they are statues.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good hypothesis, Gil-Galad, but that's not right.

If it were Isildur and Anárion - I'd say "we", not "I". I also think that "the one after me" meaning Aragorn would need, let's say, building Aragorn's statue in later times there. And yes, the hobbits lived near Anduin, but not near Argonath.

[The Might]

I didn't believe that at first, but it was as you said...I fount something to fit, and the legs fitted as well

The Bridge of Mitheithel

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very, very, very, very good, TM!
I bow before you. Please continue the thread.

[The Might]

Thanks, though considering the last riddle it will be hard ot find one as good as that

Comely child, Periannath
Born beyond a time of wrath
Or yet perhaps a shining star
A pilgrim far from Eldamar

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is definitely quite... puzzling :eek:
Could it be Elanor???

I have to say that I'd like to ask you about the syntactic meaning of the word "Periannath", since it is plural, and if it concerns the "child" part, it should have been singular, "Perian"... Only other possibility which comes to my mind is that it is addressing.
Unless of course my answer is right ;)

[The Might]

yes, you're right...though I had hoped it would take you longer to figure that out

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And it took longer than I thought before I could make at least (I hope) somehow intelligent riddle. Since no one took the 10-day opportunity, know ye that I am back to present this:

Me and brother mine
by pure hearts we were born.
Strong and tall we are
though darkess took us both.

Bearer of fire he
while I bear twice our name
we stopped the men of fame
we're here to watch and see

Me and brother mine
so much close we are
but wall is between us
until the King's day comes.

Happy riddling! :smokin:

[Elmo]

Tricky, tricky... is it Angrod brother of Aegnor? Or Boromir or Farimir

[Shards of Narsil]

I would say Isildur and Anarion

[andrew]

Total stab in the dark here as I am hopeless at riddles:

Fëanor & Fingolfin?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So far, no answer right. But it's just the beginning, don't give up and keep trying... :cool:

[Elmo]

elrond and elros? huor and hurin?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think better than blind "shots in the dark" (instead of riddles in the dark) is that if you have any hypothesis, you'd better verify it. I can assure you (as I am trying to do with all my riddles) that if you know the right answer, you'll have no problem to verify if the things in the riddle fit with it.

So, try again and if you want, you can share your ideas of what the parts of the riddle mean (or if you don't want to give a hint to others, you might keep it for yourself).

[Elmo]

i didn't want to embarass myself by showing everyone my reasoning :D i thought angrod and aegnor cause doesn't one of their names mean fell fire i thought boromir and farimir because they are tall men and fell into darkness tho farimir fell out of it elrond and elros cause a 'wall' separates themselves i.e. the fate of their races and hurin and huor cause they both fell into darkness huor died and hurin went sort of crazy and died as well

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, I might add that I supposed this was the way your deduction went - and I might add that you chose a right course in the separate cases, but unfortunately, you have yet to find some answer which fits with all the parts of the riddle :D

This riddle is still far from solving - so everyone who happens to come by is welcome to try his skills ;)

[Shards of Narsil]

How about Celegorm and Curufin?

I think they would both qualify to fit the first paragraph.

As for the second, Celegorm had a 'fiery' temper, and Curufin was named after Feanor, who's father name was also Curufin. They may have stopped the men of fame in their defence of Himlad which until the Dagor Bragollach they did very well.

Celegorm and Curufin were very close, in fact I have read that they were rarely if ever seen apart. As for the wall between us, I'm not sure how that exactly fits, but they both died at Menegroth in the attack on Doriath, so maybe there is a wall between them where they lie.

If this isn't it, maybe a small hint would help. For instance, are we looking at two sibling elves or men?

[Gil-Galad]

to me, i see Elrohir and Elladan... the darkness could refer to when their mother left them and they were sad... and they were ever present in the lives of man, mainly aragorn


but now that a read it, and reminding myself it is a riddle, Glorfindel comes to mind


Me and brother mine - both glorfindel could've been brothers
by pure hearts we were born. - as elves
Strong and tall we are - glorfindel has always been referred to as tall and strong
though darkess took us both. - glorfindel fighting blarog then fighting nazgul

Bearer of fire he
while I bear twice our name
we stopped the men of fame
we're here to watch and see - did not help the quest or men

Me and brother mine
so much close we are
but wall is between us
until the King's day comes.

can't really explain rest right now... but Glorfindel could be "time brothers"

[Shards of Narsil]

I'm not sure if Glorfindel fits the 'darkness took us both' part since the second Glorfindel wasn't taken at all, and was still doing quite well during the time of the War of the Ring wasn't he?

Any way, I think Legate needs to step in here and throw us a bone.

[Gil-Galad]

I'm not sure if Glorfindel fits the 'darkness took us both' part since the second Glorfindel wasn't taken at all, and was still doing quite well during the time of the War of the Ring wasn't he?

Any way, I think Legate needs to step in here and throw us a bone.


there are different explanations to "taken" my friend, it could be converted into the otherside like Maeglin, or it could be killed/imprisoned or even setback by the opposing force, it could even mean taken aback by surprise. maybe Glorfindel was surprised to see all nine of the nazgul chasing him

in conclusion, to really learn from teh downs, you must look outside th box

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, very good, I didn't expect so much interest. So first, I have to inform you, that your answers, unfortunately, are not correct. But don't give up, I assure you that the riddle is not that hard.

Now, I was thinking about how should I give you a hint, but I don't want to give away much of it so that I don't rob you of the joy of coming to something yourselves ;)
Personally I think it might help you to look at what structure my riddles have and what is the meaning of the words there - you might look at this one (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=504132&postcount=558) (answered later here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=504434&postcount=567) by The Might) for comparison. I suggest you to try to think more of what meaning I give to different words, and how I use both metaphores and literal meanings in the riddles.

I don't know if it was of any help, but I don't want to give up much until you tell me you are really lost in it.

[Elmo]

I was thinking Arnor and Gondor because they were separated by a metaphorical wall until the great King came i.e. Aragorn its probably not right cause they did not watch and see...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You are right, it is wrong :) But I might say that you went further in one thing: for the first time you did not make one mistake which was in all the previous posts.

[Elmo]

So its not people.. hmm... i'll need to think about this one

[Gil-Galad]

Minas Tirith perhaps?

seeing how there was indeed two of them built with same name

i'll explain it further if it is right or if you are intrigued by my logic

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It is not right, Gil-Galad, but I am interested :) I can imagine your explanations of most of the things, except: though darkess took us both (they were not both taken by darkness, I mean not both the same way), Bearer of fire he (which one and why?), while I bear twice our name (I am actually interested in how everyone takes this line in general), we stopped the men of fame (I am really confused here, at least in the case of the 3rd age MT), but wall is between us until the King's day comes (now this I'd like to see explained).

But as I said, it is wrong, so please others continue in guessing :cool:

[The Might]

I'd guess the Towers of Teeth

I am pretty sure I'm right. My answer is Carchost

Me and brother mine - Carchost and Narchost
by pure hearts we were born. - Built by Gondorians
Strong and tall we are - To keep anything from going into or out of Mordor
though darkess took us both. - they were taken by Sauron
Bearer of fire he - Narchost means Fire Fort
while I bear twice our name - Carchost means Fang Fort (carch = tooth, fang), and they were named Towers of Teeth
we stopped the men of fame - they stopped Frodo and Sam from going into Mordor, and the Host of the West
we're here to watch and see - they were used to keep an eye on that area

Me and brother mine - again
so much close we are - next to each other
but wall is between us - Black Gate
until the King's day comes. - when it was destroyed

good one btw ! :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I don't understand it, but when TM comes, every answer crumbles down like the Black Gate. Great!!! This is just unbelievable. Absolutely precise. Great work! You are to continue the thread! :)

[Gil-Galad]

since its not right, i will only anwser one of your questions Amon :p

for darkness took us both, first age Minas Tirith was of course conquered by Sauron, Third age Minas Tirith was more conquered by the mind, seeing how A) the dark cloud of mordor passed over minas tirith, and B) Denethor was gone mad due to this, so a darkness(evil) could've overcame denethor

the might and amon lanc are defiantely the new me and Rune... oh how i miss the good old days

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

the might and amon lanc are defiantely the new me and Rune... oh how i miss the good old days
No one says the "youngsters" are here to kick you out... you... must... fight :cool:

[The Might]

well...ok, here is another one, though I must admit I am not that good at making riddles

We are friends of the Atani
And in forests we live
Our laughter is pure
But to Orcs deadly blows we give

[Elmo]

is it the druedain? they might be accounted for atani though or the dark elves?

[The Might]

I knew this was a bad riddle.
Yes, you're right, the Druedain it is. :)

[Elmo]

Here's one - I am much longed for but I am only a reflection
No fair folk can fail to be moved if they look at my direction

[The Might]

the Mirror of Galadriel?

[Elmo]

good guess but no sorry

[The Might]

I have another idea...maybe the Star of Earendil? It seems to fit the riddle better then my last guess.

[Elmo]

no wrong again sorry keep trying you seem to be the expert at these riddles

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'll have a try. What about Lórien?

[Elmo]

no wrong again i can't give you a clue because i don't want to spoil it

[The Might]

The reflection part is hard, because it can be interpreted in many ways
And the direction part is also not very clear...good riddle :)

Maybe it could be a Silmaril...they might be considered a reflection of the Light of the Trees...

[Elmo]

:( wrong

[The Might]

hmm...I wonder what it could be

I've got another idea...the Elessar

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

hmm...I wonder what it could be

I've got another idea...the Elessar

Why, the Elessar, again? :D

I'd say mallorn tree? Like a "reflection" of the Trees of Valinor?

[The Might]

well, if you do look through it you see things green and fair, and the Elessar given to Aragorn could be considered a reflection of the original one

[Elmo]

sorry lads no one's got it right sofar its quite simple - its something that influences many characters throughout Toklien's work

[The Might]

the Sea perhaps?

[Gil-Galad]

The One Ring perhaps?

seeing how it is a reflection of Sauron's spirit... and every "fair" folk has been moved by this ring

[Elmo]

Congratulations, the Mighty!!! It is the Sea

[The Might]

nice...but I don't like making riddles...

In ages past
In the middle of the world
It surrounded an important island
Or so it was told

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'd say the Great Lake around the island of Almaren.

[The Might]

I really have to find better ones...:eek:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm as dark as night,
I run far from light,
spell is upon me
as you will now see.
You'll beat me, I know
but I bring the woe:
your friend is now lost,
but that was the cost.

Well, this is not one of my "standard" riddles (not so specific), but I try to put in whatever comes to my mind so that you don't have to wait too long. I hope you enjoy it. :smokin:

[Gil-Galad]

Sounds like the Nazgultoo me...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

In the case of this riddle, you should also clarify what do you think the riddle parts refer to...

...for others: by this, I am not saying that Gil-Galad is right, you can keep trying...

...actually, let's make this clear: Gil-Galad is not right :D I expected the Nazgul to be among the first guesses, but it's not right. But furthermore, please, try to be more specific of what do you think the riddle refers to (e.g. "I am dark as night = Nazgul is really dark"). Then I could easily explain to you why you are wrong :)

[Gil-Galad]

well i thought it was obvious at how the nazgul could relate and it did not need explaining, but if you need it legate then i guess i have too

I'm as dark as night, - nazgul is dark
I run far from light, - nazgul is scared by gandalfs light of istari
spell is upon me - bound by the ring
as you will now see. - they serve sauron, all see it
You'll beat me, I know - they get killed but coem back
but I bring the woe: - they hunt down anyone in their way
your friend is now lost, - use to be kings of men
but that was the cost. - cost of losing their soul


now for my second guess, i'm going with Sauron

I'm as dark as night, - Sauron has always been referred to as dark
I run far from light, - escaped when Valar came
spell is upon me - bound by the one rin
as you will now see. - his spirit( great eye) lingers
You'll beat me, I know - lidless eye sees all?
but I bring the woe: - causes greif to other "good" kingdoms
your friend is now lost, - was once a maiar of Aule
but that was the cost. - left his past life to join Melkor

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, one thing first - if you are bothered, Gil-Galad, you don't have to put the exegesis in here, only if you wanted me to show you on this why your answer is wrong - it would be a bonus for you, not for me, since you could possibly learn from the mistakes you made. And I could also get a better picture of what you are stuck at if I wanted to post a hint.

Second, you made another valiant attempt, but again, sorry, Sauron is not the right answer. I think the error you made in both your guesses was not to take the riddle as a whole. If you rewrite it into prose, these are actual sentences spoken out by the "answer". I might include a hint in this place - the "answer" talks to "you": and this "you" is the same "you" in the whole riddle. Thus, if, according to your second explanation, "your friend is now lost" would mean Sauron as Aulë's friend, then e.g. the line "you'll beat me, I know" would also have to refer to Aulë. And as far as we know, it was not Aulë who has beaten Sauron (not even during the War of Wrath).

Anyway, keep trying, the riddle, in the end, is not very hard... or at least I think so ;)

[The Might]

I would have to say...Draugluin
Sorry for the lack of explanations, but I have no time :(

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No problem. It's wrong :D

Any other attempts? Or a request for another hint?

[The Might]

Maybe the Witch-king?

I'm as dark as night, - just like other Nazgul
I run far from light, - they all didn't like light
spell is upon me - spell of Sauron
as you will now see. - dunno what to say here
You'll beat me, I know - the prophecy about his death
but I bring the woe: - clear
your friend is now lost, - perhaps Theoden
but that was the cost.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I have to disappoint you, unfortunately, for one more time - but these are all valiant attempts, hope is never lost, as we know from the Professor's work! The answer is not correct, but I bring a gleam of good hope for those who are doomed to use their own brains :) I'll use the thing you mentioned in your post, TM: "as you will now see" has its meaning as well, and quite important in this case (it is not there just to make a rhyme). Try to put it together with the rest of the riddle.

And, one more hint. The words "I run far from light" can have more than one interpretation. This is the beauty of English language. [cryptic-looking smilie needed]

[Gil-Galad]

I'm as dark as night,
I run far from light,
spell is upon me
as you will now see.
You'll beat me, I know
but I bring the woe:
your friend is now lost,
but that was the cost.


hmm... i have many ideas that all fit... but again with legates emphasis on interpating the meanings they are lost... but i shall list them, if any are right, then i will explain them

Frodo
Angalcon(sorta)
Maeglin


the "you'll beat me, i know" part keeps me wondering... i first thought of Malbeth the Seer, but then i think of Aragorn...and when i think of aragorn i think of Boromir, so

Aragorn
Boromir

ask me to explain any of them legate, i will, for now i shall just post them and let you say yes or no

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

no
no
no

no
no
:)
So, only if it seemed that you don't know why something of it is not right, post it and I'll explain. Otherwise, I can only advise you to try to find an answer which fits well with all the things in the riddle (as always).

P.S. And for everyone: if any of you thinks he is on track (or thinks he is totally out of track) and wants a hint, please ask for it, because I don't want to spoil it to you by telling too much when you want to come to it by yourselves, and on the other hand, I don't want you to drown in puzzles when you'd appreciate a hint.

[Shards of Narsil]

Could it be Morgoth, and the "you" refer to Hurin or Turin?

I'm as dark as night - Morgoth was dark, bad, etc.
I run far from light - always stayed hidden in Thangorodrim
spell is upon me - he is right now cast into the void, he could also cast a spell
as you will now see - Hurin could "see" the results of Morgoth's curse
you'll beat me I know - the prophesy of Turin beating Morgoth in the final battle
but I bring the woe - exactly
your friend is now lost - could refer to Huor if its Hurin, or Beleg if it's Turin, although Huor was actually Hurin's brother, not friend
but that was the cost - not sure, maybe this line just completes the rhyme.

[mhagain]

May I guess Gurthang?

I'm as dark as night, - black sword, obviously
I run far from light, - I don't get this bit
spell is upon me - it's obviously enchanted by Eol, as it could talk
as you will now see. - filler stuff
You'll beat me, I know - it eventually broke
but I bring the woe: - while killing Turin
your friend is now lost, - obvious reference to Beleg
but that was the cost. - generic reference to Turin's doom

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I welcome every valiant riddler to this riddling contest!

But unfortunately, for both of you, I am sorry to disappoint you, but neither of your answers is correct. I think the main mistake everyone makes here is to skip something saying "this is here probably just to fill the gaps". Everything has its place here. If there were anything you could possibly ignore, it would be the words "I know" (at the end of "you'll beat me, I know"). These are there mainly for the rhyme, are not important for the riddle, but also are not contradictory to the riddle. They just don't matter. (well, this might maybe help someone)

But besides that,
EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THE RIDDLE HAS ITS PLACE THERE.
Some more important, some less, but if it contradicts your theories about the answer, you can bet that it's the answer, and not the riddle, which is wrong.

[mhagain]

Alright then, I'm going out on a limb and guessing that it's Luthien's Hair Addressing The Two Remaining Silmarils In The Iron Crown

I'm as dark as night, - Luthien had dark hair
I run far from light, - her hair obviously ended up very far from light :D
spell is upon me - she enchanted her hair
as you will now see. - and wasn't afraid to demonstrate the fact
You'll beat me, I know - she eventually died on account of her fairness when wearing the Silmaril burned her out
but I bring the woe: - which she did to Thingol
your friend is now lost, - the Silmaril they stole
but that was the cost. - the cost of beating her

This riddle is actually very very enjoyable.:cool:

[Gil-Galad]

i'll post after your anwser to Mhagins...

i like how you made it rhyme, but i personally dislike it mainly because it thrwos everyone off, if it rhymes or not it doesn't matter, every thing in that riddle must apply to it or else all it is is just a poem referring to something.


so that rhymed part at end threw most(i think all) of us off, but now we know that it doesn't apply to the riddle we should get closer...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, it does not contradict the riddle as I said, only it is not advisable to focus on this too much. This might happen in any riddle - you might just focus on some part of the riddle which is not that much important as some other, and therefore take it from the wrong end. Since I know the answer, if I dug deeper into it, I might say that it actually is correct, but I think no one will solve the riddle by focusing on this. So, sorry if I confused someone, and now it would be better to just ignore it.

Yes, and mhagain - very interesting idea, I'd never have thought of it, and quite inventive. But not correct, sorry. On the other hand, since your interpretation is completely different from what we have seen here thus far, you have broken some stereotypes in interpretation of this riddle, so I think your attempt was very good.

I'm sure we are closing to the solution. :cool:

[mhagain]

Cheers!

I have a fairly good idea what it is (quite obvious when I think about it), but I'll wait until Gil-Galad replies.

[Gil-Galad]

i am lost for now my dear Mhagin, you may post your anwser

[mhagain]

Okey dokey.

I think the answer has at least a decent chance of being... The Mines of Moria.

I don't really think much explanation is required for this one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A brilliant thought, mhagain! Only two things:

Do the mines of Moria really run?

and

What spell is upon them?

If you have any clarification of this for me and you feel it should be right, please tell me so that it wouldn't seem that I am grudging. Otherwise, it's pretty good guess. You are on the right track. I'd now recommend you to stay on it and focus on these two lines I mentioned. When you find the right way to interpretate them, you solve the riddle.

[mhagain]

Cheers.

"Run" is obviously one of these words that can be interpreted many ways. A river can run, mines can run underground, and so on. See also http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/run - definitions 39 to 42.

The "Spell" is - of course - "Speak (say) friend and enter".

If it's not the answer you had in mind, that's fair enough, let's prolong the enjoyment! :cool::D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yeah, let's prolong it. I'm eagerly awaiting further guesses. :D

But now seeing your explanation, it is not that far. Only I would be reluctant in the "spell" part, because the spell certainly is not upon "me" (Moria) but just on the door. Which, in this scale you present (with "your friend lost" and all), is of almost no importance.

But you are really a skilled riddler, I favour you this.

[Shards of Narsil]

I am a poor riddler, so I must live vicariously through others. It seems that mhagain is 'close but not quite'. As mhagain has drawn first blood, I am now just a shark waiting for an opportunity to bite. I now have that opportunity.

To continue along these lines, would the answer be Durins' Bane? I would say that a Balrog would fit the 'run far from light' line that Legate mentioned. As well, Morgoth originally controlled these beings, so that may be construed as a spell.

Any way, that's my shot.

[mhagain]

I am actually quite convinced that what we are talking here is not a person or a being, and that the "I", "me", etc references in the riddle are a typical example and imitation of Tolkien's tendency to personify such things. In that sense it's almost a riddle within a riddle, but then don't all the best riddles contain misleading things of such nature?

We're looking for a river or other natural feature here, people. I will now guess that it's either one of two things: the Enchanted River (Gulduin) in Mirkwood, or The Paths of the Dead. There are parts of the riddle that I can't totally fit to them, however (specifically "you'll beat me" and "your friend is now lost"), but each one we rule out is one less to have to guess. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The net is really closing in. I think we can expect a correct answer in a matter of... posts :D

I am waiting for the person who posts a correct answer with proper explanation of all the lines (since a blind shot with random success might be unfair for those who have worked here so hard and so long). Don't worry, I don't want any super-hyper-precise explanations. Just try to think hard, make a conclusion, try to verify your answer going through all the lines of the riddle, and then post it.

[mhagain]

OK, rather than attempt an answer at this point, I'm going to post some speculation. Some of it may be bang on, some of it may be miles off. If anybody else uses this to determine the correct answer, well all's fair in love, war and riddles. :)

Some of this is in question form, but I don't expect an answer - it's merely intended to stimulate thought.

"I'm as dark as night"
Not the night, just night. How dark is night anyway? Some nights can be fairly bright... And what is meant by "dark"? Mere absence of light, or "The Shadow"?

"I run far from light"
Run need not be the physical act of running, as I said a few posts back. What is meant by light? It need not be daylight... Again though, it's not the light.

"Spell is upon me"
I read this as referring to something enchanted. Maybe not specifically enchanted (otherwise it would say "spell is put upon me"), but enchanted in nature.

"As you will now see"
See may refer to vision or to realisation.

"You'll beat me I know"
Legate has already confirmed that "I know" may be misleading here, and just exists to make the rhyme. Beat as in "defeat", or "overcome"?

"But I bring the woe"
A consequence of beating?

"Your friend is now lost"
Is this a reference to a specific incident?

"But that was the cost"
Again, is this this a consequence of beating?


And I'm afraid that my post had it's intended effect ..... on me. :D

So I will attempt an answer. Based on the above, I guess...

The Ring

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It's not the Ring :D But I like your "little" interpretation of the riddle. I'm not saying anything, though, about if it is correct or not (or what of it is correct and what not). I think also no more hints from me are needed. So from now on I'll just post "yes" or "no".

[The Might]

Maybe Ungoliant

I'm as dark as night, - which she was, also in earlier versions an incarnated form of the Darkness
I run far from light, - she fed on light, still she hid herself from it
spell is upon me - maybe because she had followed Melkor in the past
as you will now see. - and was summoned by him later
You'll beat me, I know - perhaps talking about the balrogs
but I bring the woe: - destroyed the trees
your friend is now lost, - Finwe killed at Formenos
but that was the cost. - To get the Silmarils

[mhagain]

Another possibility, it matches better in the second half than in the first, but with a small stretch of the imagination, "as dark as night" and "run far from light" could refer to the shadows under the trees in Doriath.

The Girdle of Melian

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Again, no. Both wrong. TM, I already said somewhere before that "you" means the same "you" all the time - I doubt Finwë was Melkor's friend (from his side surely not). mhagain, I think you started to (quite unnecesarrily) go too far from your original thoughts. Rethink everything.

[The Might]

I'm thinking of Turin

I'm as dark as night, - In reference to his sword and perhaps secrecy
I run far from light, - He did run through the tunnel of the Noldor twice
spell is upon me - doomed by Melkor
as you will now see. - as seen after he slays Glaurung
You'll beat me, I know - talking to his sword
but I bring the woe: - not sure which one is meant here, Turin was responsible for many
your friend is now lost, - Beleg Cuthalion, the former owner
but that was the cost. - perhaps the cost for Turin to receive the sword

[Shards of Narsil]

It's been ten days since the riddle was posted, and I've been racking my brain without success (as it seems have others as well). :confused:

Maybe throw us a bone Legate?

That is, if The Might and Mhagain agree since they have been actively involved in this one.

[Thenamir]

I'm barging in here, with not a single post on this thread heretofore (and kudos to Legate for not only the composition, but the artful replies to the guesses so far) but something jogged my mind in the last two lines of this one. My guess is the Ring itself, speaking to Gollum, perhaps at the Crack of Doom, but I can't make it all fit. Here's what I have:

I'm as dark as night, - not sure about this one, perhaps though it was shiny gold, it was dark in purpose, not in color.
I run far from light, - the darkness of the Barad-Dur and perhaps also of Gollum's cave?
Spell is upon me - the spell of the Dark Lord at the Ring's forging, perhaps the inscription? (hmmm...spell...inscription...could this be a horrible pun?)
As you will now see. - another I'm not sure about, perhaps the fact that the inscription appears when heated, as it undoubtedly did when cast into the chasm, depicted in the movie but not explicitly mentioned in the book.
You'll beat me, I know - Gollum was the cause of the eventual destruction of the Ring
But I bring the woe: - fairly obvious for all who carried or desired the Ring
Your friend is now lost, - the murder of Deagol
But that was the cost. - Smeagol could not obtain the Ring otherwise

Not as creative as some of the guesses so far, but I had to get rid of the tickle in my mind. Knowing the creativity of the riddles so far, it can't be that obvious...or can it? Great thread, keep it up!

EDIT: I thought I'd read the progress of the riddle carefully, but I see that someone already guessed the Ring. My apologies for the side trip. But I contend, based on the explanations above, that the Ring fits fairly well, if not exactly.

[mhagain]

I'm not sure if hints are necessary or wise at this stage. We've covered quite a lot of possibilities, and any hint that's useful may very well end up giving the entire thing away.

I still have this thing in the back of my mind going "dark enchanted river running underground" over and over again, but I'm going to ignore that just now and guess:

The Mouth of Sauron

Dark as night: he is a Black Numenoran, so check
Run far from light: more figurative that literal
Spell is upon me: did Sauron enchant or enslave him?
As you will now see: as you'll notice/observe
You'll beat me: Sauron was overthrown, and the mouth speaks for him
But I bring the woe: which the next bit
Your friend is now lost: Frodo, so check
But that was the cost: the cost of sending Shire-rats into Mordor ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

First, sorry TM and sorry Thenamir and sorry mhagain, the answers are not correct, but nevertheless they were quite creative.

But now some important thing for all riddlers around here. I won't be posting any more hints. You don't need it. Trust me :) Your guesses here are almost enough for making alternative answers. But, only almost. Remember:

I am waiting for the person who posts a correct answer with proper explanation of all the lines (since a blind shot with random success might be unfair for those who have worked here so hard and so long). Don't worry, I don't want any super-hyper-precise explanations. Just try to think hard, make a conclusion, try to verify your answer going through all the lines of the riddle, and then post it.

I don't want the explanation just to bother you with it. I want to know that the person who posts the answer is really sure about it. I dare to say, as in all of my riddles, when the person really knows the correct answer, he/she will know it. Or at least would have no trouble of checking whether it fits - and after checking it, he/she would know.

Also I want just to ensure you that if you post something and it is not correct, I say an explicite "NO" to you. Thus, if some of you, like Thenamir, have some idea of an answer, you can verify whether the same answer was not already posted here and if I said "no" to it. This will save you some time.

[The Might]

Great riddle I must admit...I have been thinking about a possible answer the last few days, but nothing really good came to me until know

I personally think of the Dark Door, the entrance ot the Paths of the Dead

I'm as dark as night, - obviously since it is called the dark door
I run far from light, - it is found in a dark glen
spell is upon me - the prophecy made by an old man sitting there to Baldor of Rohan ("The way is shut. It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes.")
as you will now see. - now means that time had come, Aragorn had arrived to fulfill the prophecy
You'll beat me, I know - just as above, it was time for Aragorn to pass the door and enter the Paths of the Dead
but I bring the woe: - I explain this below
your friend is now lost,- talking about Halabarad of the Dunedain, he himself says as he reaches the door "This is an evil door, and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless..."
but that was the cost. - the cost of Aragorn passing

As you said, I think now I feel I found the right answer.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No. Although very good, TM. Great explanation, but there are moments which are not completely ok. Basically, "the spell is upon me" and "I bring the woe: your friend is now lost" are much more simple than how you portray them. Also if that were just the door, they certainly don't "run" (the path maybe, the doors don't). I wouldn't consider that "the way is shut" a spell, there is no spell, there are the Dead and to pass is a destiny, not a spell. Similarly with the friend. Much more simple.

I know 99% that the next answer will be THE answer.

[The Might]

well, I first thought of the Stone of Erech, but it doesn't run either...so maybe it's the King of the Dead himself
he seems to fit all the lines...though I am not so sure about the "I'm as dark as night" one...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I was not right in assuming that it'd be correct :D

No. I don't think the King of the Dead had something in common of bringing the woe and "your friend is now lost". If you think about Halbarad in this point, there was certainly not in any way the King of the Dead's active involvement in this. He didn't know about Halbarad's death (possibly), and therefore if he would be the narrator (since here narrator=object of guessing) of the riddle, he wouldn't say that.

I think I can divide the attempts to guess this riddle more or less to two parts: at start, most of the guesses have not yet reached the right stadium and were not ingenious yet enough to reach the right answer; later, the guesses were mostly overlarge - too much complicated, unnecessarily.

[Gil-Galad]

well the Witch-King fits in there for me... but it is probably far from the anwser...


i wonder if Legate can amuse us with anymore hints relating to the actual anwser...

[The Might]

Well...I have had no better idea till now
Maybe it is the secret tunnel in the Lonely Mountain

I'm as dark as night, - and it is
I run far from light, - beneath the Lonely Mountain
spell is upon me - the spell that it is only accesible when the it is opened with the key while the last sun ray on Durin's Day shines on it
as you will now see. - as was seen by the Dwarves and Bilbo
You'll beat me, I know - the Dwarves swore to return to Erebor one day
but I bring the woe: - but...
your friend is now lost, - The Dwarves thought that Bilbo was lost at first after hearing strange sounds
but that was the cost. - for entering Erebor and stealing something from Smaug's treasure

I really can't think of anything else, and since you said the net was closing tight when talking about the Paths of the Dead I thought it must be some tunnel
Since Moria already was mentioned I guessed I should at least give this a try...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Sorry, but again, no, TM, and Gil-Galad, if your post was supposed to be a guess, I can't tell you anything to it, because as I said before, I want you to post explanation with it (reasons above).

Sorry, but I am afraid I cannot tell you anything more. No hints further. The situation is... well...

[Gil-Galad]

sigh... i would suggest hints to keep this thread moving or else it'll die


I'm as dark as night, - Witch-King is a "Black" rider
I run far from light, - ran away from Gandalf when he used his staff
spell is upon me - Bound by the one ring
as you will now see. - the elves noticed how the Nazgul were driven to the ring
You'll beat me, I know - deals with the propechy of "No man can kill the Witch-King"
your friend is now lost, - not quite sure about this yet, too early for me
but that was the cost. - again too early for me

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I cannot give more hints, because you even don't need them. And one thing I can provide you with to make the guessing easier for you, perhaps to save you some time. Here is the list of already posted answers which are not correct:

Ancalagon (Gil-Galad)
Aragorn (Gil-Galad)
Boromir (Gil-Galad)
the Dark Door, the entrance ot the Paths of the Dead (The Might)
Draugluin (The Might)
Durin's Bane (Shards of Narsil)
Frodo (Gil-Galad)
Girdle of Melian (mhagain)
Gurthang (mhagain)
King of the Dead (The Might)
Luthien's Hair Addressing The Two Remaining Silmarils In The Iron Crown (mhagain)
Maeglin (Gil-Galad)
The Mines of Moria (mhagain)
Morgoth (Shards of Narsil)
The Mouth of Sauron (mhagain)
the Nazgul (Gil-Galad)
the Ring (mhagain, later Thenamir)
Sauron (Gil-Galad)
the secret tunnel in the Lonely Mountain (The Might)
Túrin (The Might)
Ungoliant (The Might)
the Witch-King (The Might, later Gil-Galad)

Then:
1. I want you to post explanation of all the lines to be sure you just don't shoot randomly, since you could then send seven random guesses in one post, and this in my opinion is not the point of this riddling. I want to know you are not random guessing but you are posting because you know.
2. Sending the explanation, I am quite SURE, wouldn't be a problem for the person who stumbles upon the correct answer - since he/she could verify whether all the lines fit (I think TM might tell you about that from earlier riddles).
3. Try to look back in this thread, at the earlier stages of guessing this riddle. It seems to me your thoughts headed better way and you had generally more constructive thoughts there, I think.

That's all for now.

[The Might]

Please don't think I'm absent from the thread, I keep thinking of possible answers but somehow none really fit the riddle
But I have another idea: Cirith Ungol

I'm as dark as night, - Cirith Ungol was a dark place
I run far from light, - and ran far from light
spell is upon me - or so it was said by Gondorians when talking about Shelob's presence
as you will now see. - as seen by Frodo and Sam
You'll beat me, I know - Frodo and Sam were able to pass
your friend is now lost, - Frodo was taken captive
but that was the cost. - for attempting to take that road

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good try, TM, but no. The "answer" is telling the words: and it was the Gondorians who thought there is a spell, Cirith Ungol didn't certainly "think" there is a spell, it "knew" what lives inside it.

[Gil-Galad]

well i'll give another stab, not my best though

Orthanc

I'm as dark as night, - Dark stones
I run far from light, - Saruman turned it againest men
spell is upon me - Saruman working his magic
as you will now see. - as seen by Frodo and Sam
You'll beat me, I know - stumped here
your friend is now lost, - Saruman betrayed them
but that was the cost. - bah can't think of words here..



its probably wrong...

[Elmo]

It's not Eol by any chance

I'm as dark as night, - Hello he is called THE Dark Elf
I run far from light, - he doesn't like light
spell is upon me - I dunno he might be under the Doom of Mandos
as you will now see. - when his son causes the downfall of the last stronghold of the Noldor Gondolin
You'll beat me, I know - The foresight of Caranthir (or was it Celgorm?)
your friend is now lost, - Aredhel
but that was the cost. - FOR HIS REVENGE!!!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, neither of your answers is correct.

[Garen LiLorian]

Enchanted River (Gulduin) in Mirkwood

I'm as dark as night, - The waters were black
I run far from light, - In the depths of the wood, where no light reached
spell is upon me - The sleep spell
as you will now see. - When Bombur fell in
You'll beat me, I know - They pass the river
your friend is now lost, - But Bombur is lost in his dreams
but that was the cost. - Of passing the river

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

CORRECT.

Congratulations. I don't know if I shouldn't apologize now to those who have so long, hopelessly, wandering on this thread trying to come up with something, but I think the main problem is everyone "over-thinked". It is not that hard, I hope, or is it?

Anyway, good job, Garen LiLorian, please take over the thread.

P.S. I have also a slight feeling that people here in general don't read the Hobbit much, eh? Otherwise I cannot explain myself why would everyone seek Paths of Dead & co. behind it but not the river, which runs, let's say, more naturally (or at least it seems to me) than the underground corridors.

(Oof.)

[The Might]

I don't think this was very fair.
The answer was already given once by mhagain, without an explanation and Legate's answer made me think it is wrong.

"We're looking for a river or other natural feature here, people. I will now guess that it's either one of two things: the Enchanted River (Gulduin) in Mirkwood, or The Paths of the Dead."

I personally considered this as an answer a long time ago but I never posted it because I thought it was wrong judging by your answer to mhagain.
So either everyone answers with an explanation or you say nothing to answers without an explanation
I must admit I feel quite frustrated because after searching for the answer so long it turns out to be something I had considered long ago but as said above never thought of posting.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was afraid someone would say something like that. However, this is the situation I have been in since I made the decision not to mark mhagain's post as answered.
Why I did this (and I hope you catch it from my constant rumbling about posting reasons from then on) is that I was not sure whether mhagain is sure about what he is saying. It seemed just like a blind shot from him, as he said: 'There are parts of the riddle that I can't totally fit to them, however (specifically "you'll beat me" and "your friend is now lost"), but each one we rule out is one less to have to guess.' It seemed to me more likely at that time that mhagain is actually helping the "collective effort of solving" and not really guessing.
My biggest mistake, for which I apologize, was possibly that I didn't say just "yes mhagain, you are correct, now just post the correct explanation". Instead, I chose not to say in the post after that he is right nor wrong, but wanted from that point the explanations along with the answer. From when I made that decision, it went bad, because everyone started thinking about something else. However, I couldn't see your thoughts, so I didn't know if someone is not on right track. When TM returned to the Paths of the Dead pattern, I supposed he's on track and will try the Enchanted River next. And since Thenamir guessed the Ring even though it was already posted before, I tried to use it and told you that if he checked, he would see that I explicitely have said it is not right. I was hinting by it that there is one answer which does not have explicite "no" to it.

Finally, I know it was silly, I knew it turned wrong, but it was too late to suddenly interrupt riddling saying for example "Ok, the current Gil-Galad's guess is wrong, but in fact mhagain was right about a week ago, so he wins." I apologize again to those who would feel offended and I promise you if there'll ever be next time, I'd try to avoid these things. Well, at least for all my riddles for all the times: Post only one answer at a time, since posting two means you don't know, and I still stick with the thought that my riddles are quite transparent when you happen to know the correct answer (i.e. if you know the correct answer, you couln't be unsure of it).

[The Might]

It's not your fault actually Legate.
I also apologize for posting Draugluin as an answer without exact explanations, I was going to do that later, but seeing it is wrong anyway I didn't bother.
If the rules had been followed, and explanations had been posted for each guess something like this would have been avoided and the riddle already solved.
Anyway, I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally will try to only post guesses with explanations from now on. Otherwise solving riddles is pretty much pointless.
All in all, good riddle and congrats GarenLiLorian for solving it :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, it could have been even better riddle had not there been this unfortunate issue about it :)

Anyway, I am glad that you (at least) don't hold grudge against me, and I hope the others who have watched this thread or trying to answer do not as well (especially mhagain, for obvious reasons).

But not to forget the main purpose of this thread, it would be Garin LiLorian's turn now. We are eagerly awaiting!

[Garen LiLorian]

Huh. I hadn't even considered the possibility of winning and thus, having to come up with a riddle. Ah well. I've posted this before, but it was a long, long time ago... so no using the search function to cheat, 'kay? :)


My treachery leads to your great deeds,
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm.
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to.
My protection lasts only tonight.

Who am I, and who am I talking to? Extra kudos if you can tell me when. (It is LotR related)

[The Might]

Well, the only idea I had was Saruman and Lotho

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - it was through Saruman's treachery that
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - the ruffians locked Lobelia up
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - not really sure what is meant by this
My protection lasts only tonight. - he then ordered Grima to kill him

[Garen LiLorian]

'Fraid not. Also, this riddle is pretty obscure... 'because of me you had to' especially is a bit of a stretch.

[Elmo]

Is it Sauron talking to Gollum?

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - the treachery of Sauron by betraying the Elven Smiths creating the one ring led to Gollum getting it so he can perform his great deeds
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - Sauron's ring led to Gollum getting cast from his family
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - This could mean either when the Orcs sprung Gollum from the Elves or when he allowed Gollum to walk free of Mordor.
My protection lasts only tonight. - Sauron rescued Gollum from the Elves but if he if ever caught by Orcses he will get killed

[Garen LiLorian]

I like this answer, but it isn't right. :)
"Protection lasts only tonight" means quite literally only one specific night.

[Gil-Galad]

Melkor to Hurin


My treachery leads to your great deeds, - without Melkor betraying the Valar, Hurin might not have accomplished what he did
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - killed Hurins relatives, but did not kill Hurin
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - Hurin escaped from Angband, and melkor let him
My protection lasts only tonight. - Melkor allowed Hurin to travel his lands after he left, but once caught he'll be killed

[Garen LiLorian]

Another great but wrong answer. I think you guys are far cleverer than I am. Again, 'protection lasts only tonight' refers to one literal night, not simply a short space of time.

[Gil-Galad]

Saruman to Gandalf?

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - without saruman betraying, gandalf might not have turned into the white
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - seperated gandalf from frodo and radagast and so on
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - saruman's greivance with sauron allowed gandalf more leeway
My protection lasts only tonight. - gave Gandalf a day to join him


i'll give a better guess later

[The Might]

Maybe Gollum speaking to Frodo just before Shelob's Lair:

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - it was Gollum's treachery as he first stole the Ring from Deagol that eventually lead to Frodo's great deeds
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - it was because of him that Bilbo found the Ring and was changed by it
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - with Gollum's help Frodo managed to get so far, but because of Gollum he faced many dangers as well
My protection lasts only tonight. - makes sense, since next morning they reached Shelob's Lair and Gollum had made up his mind about Frodo's fate

[Garen LiLorian]

Sorry. 'Broken your family' also refers to a literal, biological family. Let me know if you guys would like a hint.

[The Might]

I got the idea it might be the King of the Dead speaking to Aragorn maybe

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - it was his treachery that lead to Isildur's curse and thus to Aragorn's deeds
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - didn't come to Isildur's help, then helped Aragorn
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - he didn't attack the Grey Company while they walked the Paths of the Dead, but because of the Dead Aragorn took this path in the first place
My protection lasts only tonight. - only one night because the next day the Dead defeated the corsair fleet and then were released by Aragorn

[Shards of Narsil]

Could it be the ring talking to Isildur?

My treachery leads to your great deeds - Isildur did a great deed in defeating Sauron
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm - Sauron and the ring killed Elendil and indirectly Anarion, then at the Gladden fields Isildur was protected by the invisibility that the ring provided
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to - Isildur escaped the fight at the Gladden fields and was forced to in order to keep the ring from fallin into enemy hands
My protection lasts only tonight - The ring protected Isildur only until he initially escaped, and then abandoned him to his death

[Garen LiLorian]

Afraid not.

The 'protection' spoken of in two different places is the same protection, if that helps. The answer protected for one night only the person whose family the answer broke.

[ADubiousSource]

Moria to Gimli?

[Garen LiLorian]

Sorry, no. A little closer, though. You're right in thinking that the answer is not neccessarily a person.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, is it the Ring, but speaking to Frodo then?

My treachery leads to your great deeds - because of the Ring's treachery to Isildur (or maybe even Gollum), Frodo eventually gained the Ring and therefore could, well, make great deeds :D
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm - Bilbo had to leave to Rivendell, Frodo was then protected (sometimes) by the Ring
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to - Meaning he left the Shire (he had to)
My protection lasts only tonight - oh, I now noticed you said it refers to one literal night. Well then, it could be on Weathertop. Of course, the above does not necessary have to be said on Weathertop, the Ring could tell it to Frodo anytime. Is it important? I mean, is the speech above bound only to that specific night? Couldn't the subject tell it any other night? If not, my guess is probably wrong.

[Gil-Galad]

perhaps a hint? is it first age or third?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Garen said "lotr-related", so I'd guess Third ;)

[Garen LiLorian]

Yes, it is third age.

:) I see you found the flaw in your own answer. Also, the first line could be re-written as 'My treachery to you leads to your great deeds'

[The Might]

Maybe the Brandywine to Frodo

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - because og his parents' death he was taken by Bilbo and eventually received the Ring
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - his parents died in a boating accident, but the Brandywine prevented the Nazgul from following Frodo
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - Because of the tiver he escaped, because of the need to cross the river he was forced to risk and ride with Farmer Maggot
My protection lasts only tonight. - the Nazgul were forced to ride 20 miles north and use the Brandywine bridge, so next day they already were on the other side

[Garen LiLorian]

Nice guess. That's correct. Board's yours. :)

[The Might]

To tell you the truth I wasn't pretty sure about that one, but I thought it fits pretty well
Anyway, I'll repeat my earlier comment, great riddle!


We are friends of the Atani
And in forests we live
Our laughter is pure
But to Orcs deadly blows we give

I know it's easy, I promise to make the next one harder...:)

[Gil-Galad]

Druadan of the Druadan Forest?? thats what comes ot my mind...

[Thinlómien]

They're some sort of Elves, that's clear, but who...

The Elves of Ossiriand?

[The Might]

Gil-Galad is right
Actually, I wasn't thinking of only some of them, but of the Druedain in general

[Elmo]

The Might - I'm pretty sure you've used that riddle before...

[The Might]

Oops I did it again...
You're right, it was not intentionately done, I had forgotten about that...

[Gil-Galad]

hmmm... must think...

easy one for anyone who has read The Lost Tales... or is it Unfinished Tales

i wander about
i go in and out
i talk at a couples home
listening about gnomes

[Thinlómien]

Aelfwine perhaps? If you hadn't said that Lost Tales -thing it would have been more difficult... ;)

[Gil-Galad]

nope guess again

it could've been The Lost Tales of The Unfinished Tales, and i had to say that because people would just be confused straight out...

[The Might]

Well...gnomes probably are the Noldor, as they were called Gnome in early writings
But there are definitely A LOT of characters sitting in homes of couples listening to stuff about the Noldor

[Gil-Galad]

uh well yeah... but you didn't give me an anwser, you just debated the riddle...

keep guessing, may need a bit of reading but a quick glance should help you

[Gil-Galad]

Oh my.... my mistake

Thinlomien you are correct, i was going for the name Eriol and i forgot that they are the same person


your turn m'dear

[Thinlómien]

Sorry it took me some time though. :)

You hate me, though you should love me,
I killed many of you, that I see,
but without me
you wouldn't be
there.
I know you still look this way.
Blame your kinsmen, I say.

[The Might]

I would say Olwe

You hate me, though you should love me, - by the Noldor for not helping them, they should love him as he tried to make them see the wrong in their actions
I killed many of you, that I see, - during the kinslaying
but without me
you wouldn't be
there. - he was one of the leaders of the Elves during their march west
I know you still look this way. - towards Aman
Blame your kinsmen, I say. - probably the Noldor

[Thinlómien]

Good guess but no.

[The Might]

Maybe Osse speaking to the Elves

You hate me, though you should love me, - because of his evil temper sometimes, but he actually did help many times
I killed many of you, that I see, - causing storms and shipwrecks
but without me
you wouldn't be
there. - firstly, he helped Ulmo carry the Elves to Aman on Tol Eressea, and the Noldor left Aman by using the ships of the Teleri, who had learned about building such ships from Osse
I know you still look this way. - towards the Sea
Blame your kinsmen, I say. - the Noldor I guess

I know it's not very good, but it's the only guess I had.
If it is wrong, I would appreciate a hint...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, maybe this is quite daring to go that high, but inspired by TM mentioning Ossë and also thinking of the recent Mac's game, what about Eru to the rest of the Númenoreans, who were left on the island after Pharazon left? Or, rethinking it, maybe just Manwë, since it was not Eru who "killed" anyone until the Fall, and after the Fall, there would probably be no one to tell this to.

You hate me, though you should love me, - Of course they hate him, though they should love him.
I killed many of you, that I see, - referring to the people dying due to lightnings, maybe also to Pharazon, though he didn't actually die.
but without me
you wouldn't be
there. - Of course they wouldn't.
I know you still look this way. - to the West
Blame your kinsmen, I say. - Meaning Ar-Pharazon and all these who caused the island to become wicked.

Or, if you take Mac's game as a true story, then it might be Eru to the islanders - it would make perfect sense :D

[Thinlómien]

No and no. You're quite close sometimes though. :)

I'll give you the hint.
The "I" of the riddle would probably not have any reasons to say this or to defend his/her/its actions to the "you" ie the "you should love me" is not to mean that the "I" wants the "you" to love him/her/it or that he/she/it actually cares, but to point out he/she/it is not that bad or that some horrible things are not only his/her/its doing.

[Gil-Galad]

Maedhros?


You hate me, though you should love me, - many were upset with the Sons of Feanor
I killed many of you, that I see, - SoF killed many elves, orcs and humans alike
but without me
you wouldn't be
there. - without the SoF the valar wouldn't have came and the rest of the Noldor too
I know you still look this way. - many will never forget SoF's actions
Blame your kinsmen, I say. - Maedhros urged to blame his brothers and his father for their actions, not his

[Thinlómien]

Nope. :)

Say if you need more hints, btw.

[Gil-Galad]

Nope. :)

Say if you need more hints, btw.

okay



if you need more hints, btw.

now what? :p


but seriously... hint please

[Thinlómien]

Well, TM has been right all the time about one thing. The "kinsmen" refers to Noldor. Whether to only some group of them or to them all, I'll let you to figure out by yourselves...

[Thinlómien]

Need more hints? :Merisu:

[The Might]

Maybe Melkor "speaking" to the Noldor

You hate me, though you should love me, - of course they hate him
I killed many of you, that I see, - because of him many died
but without me
you wouldn't be
there. - this could mean two things...either Melkor is saying that without him stealing the Silmarils they would have never gotten kingdoms in Beleriand, or perhaps implying that had they not died because of him, they wouldn't have returned to Aman
I know you still look this way. - to Angband where the Silmarils were
Blame your kinsmen, I say. - Feanor and his sons for taking the oath

[Thinlómien]

You're very close in some ways, TM, but you're wrong. :)

But it isn't that difficult since one person has already guessed this, (but doesn't want to post the answer here because he doesn't want to come up with the next riddle)... ;)

[Gil-Galad]

i'm just going to go out and say... Feanor

if its right i'll explain it in next post

[Thinlómien]

No it's not right, but this whole thing is related to Fëanor.

[Thinlómien]

C'mon!

Do you need more hints?

:Merisu:

[The Might]

I can't seem to find any plausible answer, so yes, I'll take another hint :rolleyes:

[Estanesse]

Is it Glaurung?

You hate me,though you should love me,
I killed many of you, that I see, Don’t have to explain this part I think
but without me
you wouldn't be
there. After the last big battle the Noldor was defeated, but there defeat eventually pity’s the Valar enough to aid them against Morgoth.
I know you still look this way.
Blame your kinsmen, I say. Maybe the battle would have gone better for the Noldor if Orodreth would have send more man to help the sons of Feanor.

[Thinlómien]

Sorry, Estanesse, you're not correct. :)

You hate me, though you should love me,
I killed many of you, that I see,
but without me
you wouldn't be
there.
I know you still look this way.
Blame your kinsmen, I say.

The one who speaks is not a person.

Also
Well, TM has been right all the time about one thing. The "kinsmen" refers to Noldor. Whether to only some group of them or to them all, I'll let you to figure out by yourselves...

-- this whole thing is related to Fëanor.

[The Might]

I think I have it...what of the Helcaraxe?

You hate me, though you should love me, - of course they hate it
I killed many of you, that I see, - during their journey
but without me
you wouldn't be
there. - in Middle-earth
I know you still look this way. - westward, or perhaps hoping to find a way to return to Aman
Blame your kinsmen, I say. - the Noldor for stealing the ships and then burning them...I always wondered why they really did that :(

[Thinlómien]

Bravo, TM. Please take the thread.

[The Might]

...I like answering riddles, but not asking them...

In my life
There is no love, no fire
For there is no man
That she would desire

I hope someone answers it soon...:)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm... it's quite meta-thing, but maybe it could be Tilion who is speaking? And he's speaking of Arien, this would explain the fire.
and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour

The term "man" would have to be interpretated a little bit metaphorically (not imagining a real Man of flesh and bone), but nothing better in my mind now.

[The Might]

...well...correct! :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

For so long time I'm here
though not from start of times.
In greatest treachery
I at first took my part.

I saw how Darkness comes,
I saw how it departs.
I saw how it returns,
I saw the death of stars,
I saw corrupted hearts.

Once They will come to me
to undo treachery
at that day, it all ends
I'll die by my own hands.

[Elmo]

Is it Arda, Legate?

For so long time I'm here: It's been around a pretty long time I guess
though not from start of times. It was created the ainur etc
In greatest treachery Is it the corruption in Arda by Melkor which led to the damage in Elvish's hroa and the like
I at first took my part.

I saw how Darkness comes For all this - its the world I suppose it see pretty much every thing
I saw how it departs.
I saw how it returns,
I saw the death of stars,
I saw corrupted hearts.

Once They will come to me - Eru and the ainur
to undo treachery - Melkor's
at that day, it all ends
I'll die by my own hands. I'm not sure about the end myth...

[The Might]

Just as I wanted to post, I noticed hwaim's post and he gave the same answer I was planning to give.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Really nice attempt, though I sadly have to disappoint you, it is not Arda. But good attempt, keep trying.

[Gil-Galad]

Illuvatar comes to my mind but knowing you legate it is never the obvious anwser...


For so long time I'm here - been here forever
though not from start of times.
In greatest treachery - Morgoths "betrayal"
I at first took my part. - talked with Morgoth

I saw how Darkness comes, - melkor's anger
I saw how it departs. - melkor being chained
I saw how it returns, - melkor took the silmarils
I saw the death of stars, - mean alot of things
I saw corrupted hearts. - men and elves doing cruel things

Once They will come to me - gods wil lcome
to undo treachery - solve it all
at that day, it all ends
I'll die by my own hands. - the song will be finished

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ilúvatar? No, no... you would say that he was not there "from start of times"? Also he didn't take part in Morgoth's treachery (he couldn't obviously, since the treachery was against him). And finally, I don't think Ilúvatar will "die by his own hands". The subject is still the same during all the riddle.
I suggest you all to try something "smaller" for a change ;)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Is it Sauron then?

It would sertainly explain "die by my own hands" as he forged the one ring and when it is destroyed he dies. . . maybe a strech, but I think it works.

He has been around for a long while
He has supported Morgoth, but not from the begining.

The treachery could also be when the Numenorians attack aman. . .and Sauron did his part there as werll. . .that would add perfectly up when they come to undo treachery.

[The Might]

I would say the Moon

For so long time I'm here - since the beginning of the First Age
though not from start of times. - of course
In greatest treachery
I at first took my part. - the first rising of the Moon marked the Return of the Noldor to Middle-earth

I saw how Darkness comes,
I saw how it departs.
I saw how it returns,
I saw the death of stars,
I saw corrupted hearts. - not hard to see everything from up there

Once They will come to me
to undo treachery - Melkor will destroy the Moon and the Sun before the Dagor Dagorath
at that day, it all ends
I'll die by my own hands. - not so sure about this

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very good attempts, especially Rune's. Sauron it could be, except for one problem - he surely was there even "at the start of times".

And the Moon... I wouldn't be so sure if rising at the moment of the coming of Noldor should be considered as taking part in their treachery, as well as if undoing the treachery would have any effect on the Moon...

So, keep trying. Though with some thoughts you were pretty close.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Now I want to say Gollum, but I cannot make it fit and I have no time as I have to be at work in 30min. . .

I must look it over when I get home again, hopefully it will bit have been guessed by then.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I can tell you Gollum it is not, though don't let it stop you in your thinking...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You make it seem as if it's one person, but perhaps this is a trick? My guess is the race of men.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Interesting idea, quite inventive, I must say. But no. I won't be so sure what the "treachery" would stand for, then, because it would be "undone" at the time they "die by their own hands" (???)

[The Might]

I believe I was wrong in thinking it was linked to the Dagor Dagorath so long
I would say it's Ungoliant ;)

For so long time I'm here - Long time in Arda
though not from start of times. - She came from the Outside Darkness at a certain time
In greatest treachery
I at first took my part. - Served Melkor in the beginning

I saw how Darkness comes, - The coming of Melkor to ask her for help
I saw how it departs. - Towards the Trees
I saw how it returns, - His return to Valinor
I saw the death of stars, - Maybe the death of the Trees
I saw corrupted hearts. - The Elves or Melkor...

Once They will come to me - the balrogs
to undo treachery - her treachery to Melkor; trying to take the Silmarils from him
at that day, it all ends - afterwards she passes South and doesn't trouble anyone anymore (or at least we know this not)
I'll die by my own hands. - she devoured herself

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Interesting, interesting! Though it's not still what I am looking for. For further reasoning, I might add that "saw" means always only "being present at the time when this and this happened", but not taking part in it. (E.g. Ungoliant not only "saw" the Trees, but she also killed them. She not only saw Morgoth depart, but she went with him. "Saw" means no interaction.)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maedhros?

The treachery is the whole Silmaril deal, and he does kill himself in the end.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And who would be They who come to him to undo the treachery? But no, it's not Maedhros.

[The Might]

After this last post, I think I have an idea who They are...maybe the Grey Company
Which means the answer is the King of Dead

For so long time I'm here - a long time in the mountains
though not from start of times. - of course
In greatest treachery
I at first took my part. - betrayed Isildur and didn't answer his summons

I saw how Darkness comes, - the first coming of Sauron
I saw how it departs. - after the defeat during the War of the Last Alliance
I saw how it returns, - Sauron's return
I saw the death of stars, - hmm...not really sure what to say here
I saw corrupted hearts. - all his folk

Once They will come to me - the Grey Company
to undo treachery
at that day, it all ends - his life
I'll die by my own hands. - by fulfilling Aragorn's oath he dies and has peace

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I saw the death of stars, - hmm...not really sure what to say here
And that is probably the reason why it is not the King of the Dead :p

Though there are some points in your riddle where you are nearing the truth.

[Gil-Galad]

I'm thinking Elrond

For so long time I'm here - hes an elf thats been here for quite a bit (more then 3000 years)
though not from start of times. - well yeah everyone knows that
In greatest treachery
I at first took my part. - could be when Doriath was sacked by SoF

I saw how Darkness comes, - the first coming of Sauron
I saw how it departs. - after the defeat during the War of the Last Alliance
I saw how it returns, - Sauron's return
I saw the death of stars, - could mean the fall of the line of Numenor
I saw corrupted hearts. - corrupted hearts of men

Once They will come to me - the Fellowship
to undo treachery
at that day, it all ends - the final evil in this world
I'll die by my own hands. - hmmm... could be just leaving for the undying lands...


tell me if i'm close

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, unfortunately, not much. Maybe somewhat in something... but...
In greatest treachery
I at first took my part. - could be when Doriath was sacked by SoF
You are still making the same mistake: treachery in this verse is the same treachery as in that verse:
to undo treachery
In your interpretation, this wouldn't go together.