Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Fimbrethil, who went to the Eastern lands alongside her kin in search of new gardens after their old ones were destroyed, leaving her husband behind, thus leaving the desert of the heart.

And Celeborn, who left Eregion after Sauron destroyed it, thus leaving the desert of the land

[Nerwen]

Fimbrethil, who went to the Eastern lands alongside her kin in search of new gardens after their old ones were destroyed, leaving her husband behind, thus leaving the desert of the heart.

And Celeborn, who left Eregion after Sauron destroyed it, thus leaving the desert of the land
Oooo, you're good!:eek:

Fimbrethil is the speaker, yes. However, the sundering I had in mind was earlier than that, referring to the incompatible interests of the Ents and Entwives- and it is she who left a very literal desert, the Brown Lands, behind her -Sauron was particularly thorough there- not fond of flowers, I suppose. (Your interpretation wouldn't have occurred to me because I generally assume the Entwives died with their gardens, and that the rest is wishful thinking.)

Okay... now find the other one. "Desert of the heart" isn't a throwaway phrase, and means more than just being sad or missing someone.

[Urwen]

Maybe the other is Melian, which contains 'Elm', who returned to Undying Lands after her beloved was killed?

[Urwen]

Characters named after trees: Nimloth, Galathil, Telperien, Celeborn. You said 'no' to three of those......

[Nerwen]

Not Melian.

[Urwen]

Galathil then?

If it's not him either, then I have no clue, because there is no one else named after a tree. -_-

[Urwen]

Fladrif, maybe, who moved away to be close to what he loved. Or Amroth, who was named after talans in Lothlorien?

[Nerwen]

You've missed someone...

Try to break down the parts of the clue- you've seen how it works for Fimbrethil.

Edit: This is a reasonably prominent character- you may not realise what the name means, however.

[Urwen]

It's not Fladrif?

[Nerwen]

No.

[Urwen]

How about Fangorn? Wokia says he might have been named after Fangorn Forest.


I can't find anyone else named after a tree

[Nerwen]

I thought it was named after him... but then his name contains "tree" anyway. Not him though.

"Orn", as in "Fangorn", is the Sindarin for "tree". You need the Quenya word.

[Urwen]

Time to consult my good friend, Parf Edhellen, then.

[Urwen]

I see. I thought so but wasn't sure. The other is Tar-Aldarion.

[Nerwen]

That's it! Well done.

[Urwen]

I lived in a land without hate
With my apprentices three
But by the hands of fate
All three were taken from me

The first one, second in command
Of the Enemy, Marrer of lands
I am one of those who guard the light
Even if it's him I'd have to fight

The second one, overtaken by greed
He dwelt high up in his tower
The destroyer of my beloved's creation
All because he sought power

The third one, greatest of them all
With skill beyond measure
Great was his fall
Blessed was his treasure

I lived in that land
With my apprentices three
Now here's the riddle
Who are they, and who am I?

[Nerwen]

I think the speaker is Aulë, and the "apprentices" are, in order, Sauron, Saruman and Fëanor. Explanation to follow.

[Urwen]

Looking forward to seeing it.

[Nerwen]

I lived in a land without hate -Valinor.
With my apprentices three
But by the hands of fate
All three were taken from me

The first one, second in command
Of the Enemy, Marrer of lands -describes Sauron.
I am one of those who guard the light
Even if it's him I'd have to fight -confirms speaker as a good character, therefore not Morgoth, therefore the only other person to whom Sauron was an "apprentice": Aulë.

The second one, overtaken by greed
He dwelt high up in his tower
The destroyer of my beloved's creation
All because he sought power -Saruman, also a Maia of Aulë, lived in Orthanc and his extensive tree-felling can't have endeared him to Yavanna.

The third one, greatest of them all
With skill beyond measure
Great was his fall
Blessed was his treasure -Feanor, whose "blessed treasure" was of course the Silmarils.

[Urwen]

Entirely correct.

[Nerwen]

Okay, I think you'll like this one.:cool:

Father of traitors yet none to myself
Friend to neither Man nor Elf
Lover and slayer of kin and of foe
My own I will take and by choice I will go.

[Urwen]

It's the father of wrench-owned one, ain't he?

And, actually, it's the opposite. I don't like him at all. He is number 2 on my hate list, right after Phary.

And technically, he isn't a father of 'traitors', as he only had one child before that entire family went bazinga.

[Nerwen]

Well, hang on, who do you think the answer is?

I assure you the plural is deliberate.

Edit: did you just put the actual guess in? I didn't see it before. Yes, it's Eöl- but can you explain it all?

[Urwen]

Father of traitors yet none to myself - Aglanchel and Lomion his children
Friend to neither Man nor Elf - Debatable, considering who eventually received Anglachel and who his family were
Lover and slayer of kin and of foe
My own I will take and by choice I will go. - More or less his mindset and words in the Silm

But, like I said, I don't like him at all.

[Urwen]

So, do I get to go now.....?

[Nerwen]

Yep!

[Urwen]

Here is one about two characters I do like.

Fire you were named for
And, originally, so was I
Renowned you were, and I was not
And death was what we got

The vast lands of Beleriand
Neither of us got to see
I was too weak to live
You were too fey to wait or flee

[Nerwen]

I think the speaker is your namesake, Urwen/Lalaith, and the one addressed is Fëanor.


Fire you were named for
And, originally, so was I -"Spirit of fire" and "Fire-maiden"
Renowned you were, and I was not
And death was what we got -I don't think this needs elaboration.

The vast lands of Beleriand
Neither of us got to see -Neither Dor-lómin, where Lalaith lived out her short life, nor Mithrim, where Fëanor died, are part of Beleriand proper.
I was too weak to live
You were too fey to wait or flee -She died from a childhood illness; he was killed in battle due to his recklessness.

[Urwen]

Ye, though I didn't know that neither Dor-Lomin or Mithrim were a part of Beleriand.

[Urwen]

A bit of trivia: the places where they died are right next to each other on this map:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/1/12/Map_of_Beleriand.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100419123101

[Huinesoron]

A bit of trivia: the places where they died are right next to each other on this map:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/1/12/Map_of_Beleriand.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100419123101

My guess is that 'Beleriand stops at the mountains' was a bit of Feanorian/Fingolfinian pedantry to avoid having to pay homage to Thingol. "Yes, I know he's King of Beleriand, the wide forested lands either side of the Sirion - but we're north of all that up here. That makes this land unclaimed, right?"

Only the Finarfinions were able to admit that yes, actually, it was all Thingol's and he was very generous to let them muck about in it.

(And then of course the Feanorions migrated south, losing even that shred of justification...)

hS

[Urwen]

Anyway, over to Nerwen

[Nerwen]

Nothing, and a jewel incomplete;
To my heirs a jewel I bequeathed;
Long treasured, long drowned,
For a jewel my jewel was found.

[Huinesoron]

Hmm. 'Long drowned', of a jewel, makes me think of the original Elendilmir, which went into the river with Isildur. It was found by Saruman looking for the Ring, so 'for a jewel [it] was found' would fit.

'Long treasured' also fits: it was an heirloom of Andunie since Silmarien. 'To my heirs a jewel I bequeathed' says the speaker must be one of its bearers before its loss: Silmarien, Valandil, Earendur, Amandil, Elendil, or Isildur.

So 'Nothing, and a jewel incomplete' sounds like a cryptic/spell-it-out line. SILMARIEN? Her name is mostly an incomplete Silmaril, with just 'en/ne' left over as 'nothing'.

hS

[Nerwen]

Hmm. 'Long drowned', of a jewel, makes me think of the original Elendilmir, which went into the river with Isildur. It was found by Saruman looking for the Ring, so 'for a jewel [it] was found' would fit.

'Long treasured' also fits: it was an heirloom of Andunie since Silmarien. 'To my heirs a jewel I bequeathed' says the speaker must be one of its bearers before its loss: Silmarien, Valandil, Earendur, Amandil, Elendil, or Isildur.

So 'Nothing, and a jewel incomplete' sounds like a cryptic/spell-it-out line. SILMARIEN? Her name is mostly an incomplete Silmaril, with just 'en/ne' left over as 'nothing'.

hS

You've got it!

However, by "for a jewel my jewel was found" I meant, "to be worn by Elessar" and I was think of the last part of Silmarien's name being "rien" (i.e. "nothing" in French).

Over to you!

[Huinesoron]

Ohhh yeah, Elessar. Forgot about him in my haste to rush to Saruman. ^_^

Under shadow, under earth,
By foul magics hid from sight.
To the deepest place I venture,
And its denizen bring to light.

hS

[Urwen]

Makes me think of Aredhel, who forced Eol to follow her&her protector to 'light'.

[Huinesoron]

Makes me think of Aredhel, who forced Eol to follow her&her protector to 'light'.

That's a nice answer. In this case, however, the bringing to light is entirely intentional.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Sounds like Jean Valjean hunting for Cosette, (without the magic), but I have a feeling that isn't the answer.

[Huinesoron]

Sounds like Jean Valjean hunting for Cosette, (without the magic), but I have a feeling that isn't the answer.

Darn, I didn't know anyone else remembered the Tolkien translation of Les Mis.

:p

hS

[Urwen]

Luthien?

Under shadow, under earth,
By foul magics hid from sight. - Tol-in-Gaurhoth, controlled by Sauron's evil magics
To the deepest place I venture - Self-explanatory
And its denizen bring to light. - Beren

[Huinesoron]

Luthien?

Under shadow, under earth,
By foul magics hid from sight. - Tol-in-Gaurhoth, controlled by Sauron's evil magics
To the deepest place I venture - Self-explanatory
And its denizen bring to light. - Beren

You're a long way off in time, space, and characters, but actually really close in the meanings of virtually every line.

hS

[Urwen]

So 'hid from sight' is the key line? And the answer is a person?

[Urwen]

Ah-ha, I've got it! You said my Luthien guess was close, meaning that the subject of the riddle rescue someone they loved from captivity in a dark place. Let me check whether what I've got in mind is accurate.

[Huinesoron]

So 'hid from sight' is the key line? And the answer is a person?

'Hid from sight' will certainly make it easier, if you figure out what it means. The answer is a person in a specific place and time.

hS

[Urwen]

Never mind, for the denizen I thought of was imprisoned far above, not far below.

[Huinesoron]

Ah-ha, I've got it! You said my Luthien guess was close, meaning that the subject of the riddle rescue someone they loved from captivity in a dark place. Let me check whether what I've got in mind is accurate.

Not quite, but most of that, yes.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is it Gandalf and the Balrog? Although he didn't seek him out on purpose.

He did find Thrain, though, in the pits of Dol Guldur.

[Huinesoron]

Is it Gandalf and the Balrog? Although he didn't seek him out on purpose.

He did find Thrain, though, in the pits of Dol Guldur.

You're much closer to the right time and place, but Urwen was closer on the general concepts.

Your second guess is even closer.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Not Gandalf's 'rescue' of Theoden?

(I have a feeling I am getting colder).

[Huinesoron]

Not Gandalf's 'rescue' of Theoden?

(I have a feeling I am getting colder).

Well that's a very grim description of Edoras.

This riddle is actually entirely literal.

New page:

Under shadow, under earth,
By foul magics hid from sight.
To the deepest place I venture,
And its denizen bring to light.

hS

[Urwen]

Sam's rescue of Frodo?

[Huinesoron]

Sam's rescue of Frodo?

I can see where you're going with that, but no.

hS

[Urwen]

If it weren't for your hints, I'd say Beleg, or Gwindor.

[Huinesoron]

If it weren't for your hints, I'd say Beleg, or Gwindor.

They wouldn't fit the whole riddle, though.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Well that's a very grim description of Edoras.

This riddle is actually entirely literal.

New page:

Under shadow, under earth,
By foul magics hid from sight.
To the deepest place I venture,
And its denizen bring to light.

hS

But if it's entirely literal, there's nowhere deeper than the depths of Moria, unless you're talking about an obscure mermaid or something. Or a castaway Silmaril (which would take us into the future).

[Urwen]

Wait, then the speaker themselves are hidden from sight by evil magics, as opposed to the place they ventured to? And yet, they bring someone to light, implying that they are a good person......

[Huinesoron]

But if it's entirely literal, there's nowhere deeper than the depths of Moria, unless you're talking about an obscure mermaid or something. Or a castaway Silmaril (which would take us into the future).

The implication is 'deepest in [somewhere]', not globally deepest. I could never calculate whether Utumno, Moria, or Mandos ran deepest.

Wait, then the speaker themselves are hidden from sight by evil magics, as opposed to the place they ventured to? And yet, they bring someone to light, implying that they are a good person......

Yes and yes.

hS

[Urwen]

Then it's one of the bearers of One Ring, for that's the only thing of evil magics that could hide someone from sight.

[Urwen]

Except that none of them fit the whole riddle either, even though they do fit parts of it. (Well, Sam does, but you said no to that)

[Huinesoron]

Then it's one of the bearers of One Ring, for that's the only thing of evil magics that could hide someone from sight.

It is!

Except that none of them fit the whole riddle either, even though they do fit parts of it. (Well, Sam does, but you said no to that)

I promise you're wrong. :)

hS

[Nerwen]

It's Bilbo's rescue of Thorin from Thranduil's dungeon, isn't it?

[Urwen]

Then it's either Bilbo or Frodo, and Bilbo fits better, because he visited Taur-nu-Fuin

[Nerwen]

Assuming my guess is correct, here's the explanation:

Under shadow, under earth, -In subterranean halls in Mirkwood.
By foul magics hid from sight. -Made invisible by the Ring.
To the deepest place I venture,
And its denizen bring to light. -Thorin was imprisoned "far down in a deep place".

[Huinesoron]

It's Bilbo's rescue of Thorin from Thranduil's dungeon, isn't it?

We have a winner! Explanation is exactly as you say.

I was expecting to decoy you all by making it all sound evil (hence 'denizen' in particular), but Urwen clocked immediately that 'brought to light' implied a good character.

hS

[Nerwen]

I did that with Huan once. Before your time, I think.

For salvation given,
From a cold hand taken
That vows be kept
In a land forsaken.

Brought down years uncounted,
From lands sea-riven,
From a cold hand taken
For salvation given.

[Pervinca Took]

That also elicited my silly Les Mis comment. Valjean sings 'And I will bring her [Cosette] to the light.' ;)

[Pervinca Took]

I did that with Huan once. Before your time, I think.

For salvation given,
From a cold hand taken
That vows be kept
In a land forsaken.

Brought down years uncounted,
From lands sea-riven,
From a cold hand taken
For salvation given.

Could it be the Ring of Barahir?

[Nerwen]

Yep!

[Urwen]

Ring of Barahir?


For salvation given - To Barahir
From a cold hand taken - Barahir's
That vows be kept - Finrod to Beren
In a land forsaken. - Beleriand

Brought down years uncounted,
From lands sea-riven, - One of heirlooms of Numenor
From a cold hand taken
For salvation given.

[Urwen]

I am sure getting ninjaed a lot today.....:(

[Nerwen]

Yes, and that's the correct explanation (with the last bit referring to Arvedui giving the ring to the Lossoth). But I'm afraid Pervinca got in before you, so it's her turn.

[Pervinca Took]

Take it if you like, Urwen. I'd have been a little slower if I'd stopped to write explanations.

[Urwen]

Nah. Make one.

[Pervinca Took]

No time! You do it.

[Urwen]

In the first
I was given to him by a foster mother
Though ultimately
I was meant for his blood brother

In the third
I was given to those who sought flame
Though they ultimately parted ways
Could you guess my name?

[Nerwen]

Lembas?

In the first
I was given to him by a foster mother
Though ultimately
I was meant for his blood brother -Melian gave Beleg lembas for Túrin, whom she had fostered and who could be described as "blood brother" to Beleg.

In the third
I was given to those who sought flame
Though they ultimately parted ways
Could you guess my name? -Galadriel gave lembas to the Fellowship of the Ring, whose goal was Mt Doom.

[Urwen]

Yup.

[Nerwen]

Blood of two peoples made me.
He I trusted tried to undo me.
He that I hated saved me.
He that was loyal slew me.

[Urwen]

Beleg? He trusted Mim, he was saved by Androg, whom he mistrusted, and his best friend killed him.

[Nerwen]

Beleg? He trusted Mim, he was saved by Androg, whom he mistrusted, and his best friend killed him.
No. I thought someone would guess Beleg- but how would you explain the first line?

[Urwen]

Turin then? He was born from Houses of Hador and Beor, he hated Brandir, who saved his life after he came to Brethil, and he was slain by Anglachel, which was loyal to Beleg.

[Nerwen]

Turin then? He was born from Houses of Hador and Beor, he hated Brandir, who saved his life after he came to Brethil, and he was slain by Anglachel, which was loyal to Beleg.
Well, loyal to Beleg apart from that time when it sort of wasn't... but yes, Túrin would fit. It's not him, however.

[Urwen]

One of Half-Elven, then?

[Nerwen]

*declines to answer*

I'm only going to confirm or deny specific guesses, not broad categories. I think that's fair.

[Urwen]

Faramir? His parents were people of Dol Amroth and Gondor, his father tried to burn him, and Gandalf saved him (Presumably, he, like his father, disliked Gandalf, though I have no hard proof of that)

[Nerwen]

Faramir? His parents were people of Dol Amroth and Gondor, his father tried to burn him, and Gandalf saved him (Presumably, he, like his father, disliked Gandalf, though I have no hard proof of that)
Actually I'm pretty sure he held Gandalf in high regard- remember how he spoke of him to the Hobbits? Also, when was Faramir "slain"?

[Urwen]

Well, I doubt anyone in the Tolkien-verse really hated anyone else (Maeglin, Mim and other bad guys being the exception, but then again, none of them were saved by anyone)


And why would this person be saved by someone they hated? Makes no sense to me.

[Nerwen]

Well, I doubt anyone in the Tolkien-verse really hated anyone else (Maeglin, Mim and other bad guys being the exception, but then again, none of them were saved by anyone)
Highly debatable, I'd say. (And Maeglin's life was saved by his mother, actually, though that's neither here nor there.)

At any rate the person in question was certainly very badly disposed towards the other party.

And why would this person be saved by someone they hated? Makes no sense to me.
Exactly. WHY?:eek:

[Urwen]

Yeah, but he didn't hate her. ;)

[Nerwen]

Yeah, but he didn't hate her. ;)
I know, that's why I said it was "neither here nor there".

[Urwen]

None of the solutions I can come up with fit all of the lines, though I am curious to see who this is. (For instance, Gollum wasn't slain, Feanor didn't have mixed blood etc.)

[Nerwen]

You'll just have to keep looking, won't you?:smokin:

[Urwen]

Yeah, but that'd take forever.

[Urwen]

So this character hated someone, someone else attempted to kill them, they were saved by the person they hated from the person who tried to kill them, and then they were slain by someone who was loyal.

[Urwen]

Why does this still give me CoH vibe.....?

[Urwen]

Maybe Frodo? Briefly, he relied on Gollum and pushed Sam away, and as Lobelia pointed out, he's half-Baggins, half-Brandybuck.

[Urwen]

Except that he wasn't slain.....

[Urwen]

Anyone else willing to take a shot at this?

[Nerwen]

So this character hated someone, someone else attempted to kill them, they were saved by the person they hated from the person who tried to kill them, and then they were slain by someone who was loyal.
Pretty much, except that there are subtler ways of "undoing" someone...

Why does this still give me CoH vibe.....?
Well, probably because it resembles various things from CoH- but they didn't all apply to the same person. (So no, not that.)

Hints:

Line 1 is completely accurate, but also not, I think, something people particularly associate with this character. It serves mainly to rule out candidates, as you've found.

You might want to look at your question, "Who would be saved by someone they hated?" another way round.

The last bit is important, though again it's something you might well have forgotten. In-story, however, the incident was considered worth writing a line or two of verse about- I've basically paraphrased this, in fact.

Finally, I assure you the speaker is a major character and not Bilbo's fourth cousin's mother-in-law or anything like that.

[Urwen]

So the question is 'who would hate someone they've saved', right?


And 'undoing someone' could also mean steering them the wrong path/corrupting them.


Maybe Gwindor 'I rue the day I stole you from Orcs' son of Guilin?

[Nerwen]

Where does it say this person hated the speaker?

But yes to your second observation.

Not Gwindor, though.

Re-posting for a new page:

Blood of two peoples made me.
He I trusted tried to undo me.
He that I hated saved me.
He that was loyal slew me.

[Urwen]

Where does it say this person hated the speaker?

Re-posting for a new page:

Blood of two peoples made me.
He I trusted tried to undo me.
He that I hated saved me.
He that was loyal slew me.

There


He that I hated saved me.

[Nerwen]

"I hated him" != "He hated me".

[Urwen]

So the speaker hated by someone that didn't hate them, and yet none of my guesses are correct? :eek:

[Urwen]

Oh, I see. Answer incoming, I hope.

[Urwen]

Gender confirmed. Time to end this.

[Urwen]

Theoden.

Blood of two peoples made me - Blood of Rohan and Lossarnach
He I trusted tried to undo me. - Grima
He that I hated saved me. - Gandalf
He that was loyal slew me. - Snowmane

[Urwen]

Am I right?

[Nerwen]

The King of the Golden Hall it is! Well done!

[Nerwen]

Sorry for keeping you in suspense- I had to attend to some things.

[Urwen]

Let me change it up a little.

You want to escape from us, but beware
Of things that came to light
Of us who caught you unaware
We won't let you run into the night

[Nerwen]

Thinking aloud. First and second lines seem pretty general... but the middle ones are interesting. Who was "caught unaware"? Does it mean "ambushed"? While sleeping?

[Urwen]

No. I am merely being sneaky.

[Pervinca Took]

Shelob's eyes?

[Urwen]

Nope, why would I make a riddle about that?

It describes one of my favorite moments.

[Nerwen]

Is it Túrin's Orc captors? "Things that came to light" might be a reference to the flash of lightning that revealed Beleg's dead face to him.

[Pervinca Took]

Nope, why would I make a riddle about that?

It describes one of my favorite moments.

Well, why would anyone make a riddle about anything? :)

[Urwen]

Is it Túrin's Orc captors? "Things that came to light" might be a reference to the flash of lightning that revealed Beleg's dead face to him.


And how and when did they catch him unaware? He was quite aware of them the whole time.

[Nerwen]

And how and when did they catch him unaware? He was quite aware of them the whole time.
“Thus was Bar-en-Danwedh betrayed, for the Orcs came upon it by night at unawares, guided by Mîm.”
That's what I thought you might mean- but apparently not.

Think... think... who else is Urwen obsessed with...?:p

[Urwen]

Except they did let him 'run into the night'.

And you do have the complete list of my favorites, thanks to one of my passwords.

[Nerwen]

Faramir to Gollum, then?

[Urwen]

No.


Hint: Think about the riddle. Think about ALL of the meanings each of the lines can have.

[Urwen]

One more hint: This riddle more or less paraphrases the events that occurred in a very specific chapter of a very specific book of a very specific trilogy.

[Pervinca Took]

A Conspiracy Unmasked?

[Urwen]

A Conspiracy Unmasked?

Now you just need to say the answer. ;)

[Pervinca Took]

I thought I had ....

[Urwen]

I thought I had ....


Well, yeah, technically......

[Urwen]

You know what? Have at it. You let me make it by your goodwill, so I'll do the same.

[Pervinca Took]

Let me change it up a little.

You want to escape from us, but beware
Of things that came to light
Of us who caught you unaware
We won't let you run into the night

Escape from us - from Merry and Pippin (and Fatty) - to face the dangers alone and not risk their lives.

Things that came to light - Merry once saw Bilbo use the Ring. Could refer to other things too, though, like the things Sam has reported.

Caught you unaware - Muttering 'Shall I ever look down that valley again' and things like that. Plus Frodo was taken unaware in that they already knew he wasn't just settling down at Crickhollow.

We won't let you run into the night - Night as a metaphor for danger; run as a metaphor for facing it recklessly and alone.

Is that better? ;)

I had thought it obvious once solved, but actually, you're right. It's only fair, after all, to explain how the parts of a riddle work when someone has gone to the effort of making one.

Furthermore, it was probably only obvious to me because Frodo is my favourite character, (in literature, not just in Tolkien), so I know the parts of the book with him in extremely well. Which begs the question: why did I think of Shelob's eyes first? Well, that's another part of Frodo's story, so I guess that's why. ;) The last line doesn't work as well for that solution, though. Shelob *wants* him to run into the night. (The metaphor here would be her larder).

Which reminds me ... why has no-one made me a Frodo password like your Maeglin and Huey's Telperien? :D

[Urwen]

Give me nice, warm hints for yours so I can solve yours, and I'll do that for you. :D

[Urwen]

Anyway, the turn is yours.

[Pervinca Took]

Just a quick one this time.

It's red and open,
But not sore.

[Urwen]

Throat?

[Pervinca Took]

It may be just a quick one, but it *is* Tolkien-themed!

[Urwen]

The maw of Carcharoth?

[Pervinca Took]

Better!

But no, not a maw of any kind.

[Urwen]

The house with the red door in the Shire? :p

[Pervinca Took]

I can't think of one of those!

Clever, though.

But not a door.

Think of red things.

[Urwen]

Oh, I see. Red book?

[Pervinca Took]

Ooooh, that's a good guess! Books can be open, as doors can.

Not what I'm looking for, though.

Now, your last two answers were things in the Shire.

I am thinking of a thing, at a certain time and place. The place *is* actually the Shire, but not for long.

[Urwen]

I was so sure it would be Red Book of Westmarch......

[Pervinca Took]

Well, the actual answer is pretty cool as well. :D

[Urwen]

I can't think of any other red things which can be opened.....maybe a box of some kind.....

[Pervinca Took]

All right, I'll give it to you. It's Sam's emergency can of baked beans. :D (Now you know what really kept the Black Riders off ... poo-eeeee!!!) (Sorry, couldn't resist).

No, not really.

It's not a thing that can *be* opened. It is a thing that someone is finally being open *about.*

[Urwen]

Narya, the ring of fire. Gandalf wore it openly after Sauron was defeated.

[Pervinca Took]

Narya, the ring of fire. Gandalf wore it openly after Sauron was defeated.

Indeed, and probably for the first time on the way to the Havens, to honour the Ring-Bearers. That is the first (and only) time it's mentioned in LOTR, anyway - when Frodo sees it on Gandalf's hand.

It's also the first time Narya and Vilya are even *named!*

Over to you. :)

[Urwen]

This one plays off Nerwen's latest riddle


Thou shalt guide me
And I shalt be thy guard
And so he spoke
But in the end it was the other way 'round

I was near
I saw it take flight
I shalt be a guard to what I hold dear
He shalt be a guide of my heart

[Nerwen]

Well, could this be Merry, referring to Théoden?

[Urwen]

When did Theoden say he'll be Merry's guard?

[Nerwen]

When did Theoden say he'll be Merry's guard?
Sorry, I'm getting confused as to who is actually being referred to, throughout.

[Nerwen]

It's not changing perspective between verses, then?

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Huinesoron]

It kinda sounds like some combination of Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, but I can't pin them down to specifics.

I wonder whether 'And so he spoke' is necessarily what it sounds like. It could be the speaker of the first two lines - or it could a third party making some kind of speech, as a marker of time.

'I saw it take flight' - what can 'it' be? There's a few flying entities in Middle-earth, but I'm wondering at something like an arrow - or the Ring?

hS

[Urwen]

It kinda sounds like some combination of Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, but I can't pin them down to specifics.

I wonder whether 'And so he spoke' is necessarily what it sounds like. It could be the speaker of the first two lines - or it could a third party making some kind of speech, as a marker of time.

'I saw it take flight' - what can 'it' be? There's a few flying entities in Middle-earth, but I'm wondering at something like an arrow - or the Ring?

hS


Arrow is the closest, though there are other similar things that can 'take flight'. 'And so he spoke' does indeed refer to the speaker of first two lines, which are more or less a paraphrase of the book text.

[Huinesoron]

Arrow is the closest, though there are other similar things that can 'take flight'.

Of course! The boomerang-flingers of Far Harad! :D:D:D

hS

[Urwen]

Of course! The boomerang-flingers of Far Harad!

hS
:eek:

[Huinesoron]

Oh, hang on. Is this Aredhel speaking of Maeglin?

"Thou shalt guide me/And I shalt be thy guard" - Maeglin saying 'hey Mum, let's go visit your brother; look, I've nicked Dad's sword!'
And so he spoke
But in the end it was the other way 'round

I was near/I saw it take flight - Aredhel sees Eol throwing his... dart? Oh, it's a javelin. Is this is the only javelin in Middle-earth?
I shalt be a guard to what I hold dear - she's guarding Maeglin's life.
He shalt be a guide of my heart - um... because she loves him?

hS

[Urwen]

Yes. and those are the words Maeglin actually sšpoke in the book. *Youćll be my guide, and I'll be your guard.*

And yes, she loves him. Why would she not?

Your turn.

[Huinesoron]

Of course she loves him - I just wasn't sure if you were looking for something more specific. :)

Right, I've put a lot of work, and a lot of research into this one to make it absolutely perfect. Here goes:

9
7

Go for it!

hS

[Urwen]

Is it 9 divided by 7?

Either way, makes me think of 9 mannish rings and 7 dwarven rings......and the line could mean One Ring. In other words, the rings is whose making Sauron had a hand, so to speak.

[Pervinca Took]

Or:

3 × 3 ships
1 white tree
7 stones (P)alantiri or stars

brought by the Faithful of Numenor to Middle-earth.

[Huinesoron]

Is it 9 divided by 7?

It is not. Find another way of saying it.

Either way, makes me think of 9 mannish rings and 7 dwarven rings......and the line could mean One Ring. In other words, the rings is whose making Sauron had a hand, so to speak.

One of these 3 things is (very nearly) the right reference.

Or:

3 × 3 ships
1 white tree
7 stones (P)alantiri or stars

brought by the Faithful of Numenor to Middle-earth.

That's really good.

Totally wrong, but really good.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

If one of Urwen's was nearly right, could it be 'deathlessness?'

9 Ringwraiths
1 Man becomes immortal (Tuor)
7 Durins, one of them 'Deathless?'

[Huinesoron]

If one of Urwen's was nearly right, could it be 'deathlessness?'

9 Ringwraiths
1 Man becomes immortal (Tuor)
7 Durins, one of them 'Deathless?'

9 is the Ringwraiths.

What does the riddle say about them?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

You said find another way of saying it.

Nine over seven?

Nine by seven? (Like dy by dx).

The Nine could have been done in by seven if 5 eagles went for them on Mount Doom, Eowyn and Merry being the other 2.

[Huinesoron]

You said find another way of saying it.

Nine over seven?

Nine by seven? (Like dy by dx).

The Nine could have been done in by seven if 5 eagles went for them on Mount Doom, Eowyn and Merry being the other 2.

'Nine over seven' is the riddle. :)

Halfway there!

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Did the Nine cross seven bridges, or borders?

[Huinesoron]

Did the Nine cross seven bridges, or borders?

They crossed seven something, right enough.

Someone else is also said to have crossed the same seven.

Well, not said.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Rivers?

[Huinesoron]

Rivers?

What rivers, and what's your source?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Just the logic of them having to cross several to get to the Shire.

Anduin (Radagast said they had crossed it. At least, in the BBC version I think he did).

Baranduin?

Geography is not my strong point, whichever world I'm in.

[Urwen]

You gave up on the Password thread, Pervinca?

[Pervinca Took]

You gave up on the Password thread, Pervinca?

I really have tried, but can't get any further with the clues.

[Urwen]

I'll post some hints tomorrow-ish then.

[Huinesoron]

Just the logic of them having to cross several to get to the Shire.

Anduin (Radagast said they had crossed it. At least, in the BBC version I think he did).

Baranduin?

Geography is not my strong point, whichever world I'm in.

Well, it's the right answer. :) The specific reference is this:

I saw him ride over seven streams
Over waters wide and grey...

From the lament for Boromir. The internet thinks it refers to seven rivers between Minas Tirith and Rivendell, but I think it probably refers to seven actual streams close to Tharbad (after which point he lost his horse anyway). The point is, we know the Nazgul also forced the crossing at Tharbad, so they must have crossed the same seven streams.

Nine over seven. And thread over to Pervinca.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I thought the reference was probably that song, but I wondered if it was the Lament for Gandalf. I didn't check it - sorry. I thought you wanted me to find a map and count the rivers, and I didn't have time.

Ok then.

I lie low.
Concealed.
But piquant.

[Urwen]

Nan Elmoth? :p

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

Moria?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

:(

[Pervinca Took]

Think about 'piquant.'

[Urwen]

The mushrooms?

[Pervinca Took]

Not mushrooms, but getting warmer.

[Urwen]

Onions? Peppers?

[Pervinca Took]

Where are peppers mentioned in the books!?

Lying low doesn't mean under the earth or in a valley or anything like that.

[Urwen]

Now I am even more confused.


The Fellowship?

[Pervinca Took]

No. Not a person.

But it's *connected* to one particular character.

[Urwen]

Zirak-Zigil? It's piquant, as in peaky.

[Pervinca Took]

No ... piquant refers to taste.

[Urwen]

Lembas? Some other sort of food? Stewed rabbits?

[Pervinca Took]

Not one of those.

Lies low ... lies low ....

[Urwen]

Some kind of low-growing shrub?

[Pervinca Took]

Not a shrub.

It's mentioned in 'Of Herbs And Stewed Rabbit,' and only there, I believe.

[Urwen]

Terebinth?

[Pervinca Took]

Not something that grows.

[Urwen]

I see......You're full of suprises.

"....and hidden at the bottom of the pack in a flat wooden box a dwindling treasure, some salt....."

and that's my answer.

[Pervinca Took]

YES!

Sam's box of salt, at the bottom of his pack.

I said it was connected to a character!

Over to you. :)

[Urwen]

Then let me post something that was inspired by a poem one of my friends wrote.

Woe upon them
Children who hold the helm
Woe, woe, before the dark foe
Whose will follows them high and low

Woe upon them, woe upon him
Who dared to oppose him and his whim
Woe upon them, forlorn in their plight
They couldn't win that fight

[Pervinca Took]

The children of Hurin, at the whim of Morgoth?

[Urwen]

Yeah......

[Pervinca Took]

Perfectly round.
But never a scratch or sign of wear?
Hmmmm ....

[Urwen]

Palantir(i)?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

The One Ring?

[Pervinca Took]

The One Ring?

No. Frodo specifically said it never showed either of those things.

[Urwen]

The Mirror of Galadriel?

[Urwen]

No. Frodo specifically said it never showed either of those things.


But he did say exactly that about the One Ring, and I can prove it: https://books.google.rs/books?id=yl4dILkcqm4C&pg=PT66&lpg=PT66&dq=tolkien+it+never+showed+a+scratch+or+sign+of+we ar&source=bl&ots=cmeinvG-vD&sig=ACfU3U3cuF8JW8A6EC2RZjh7fTpsjau_fA&hl=sr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbwYuDvYXjAhWR6aYKHSM-AakQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=tolkien%20it%20never%20showed%20a%20scratch%20or %20sign%20of%20wear&f=false

[Pervinca Took]

I know. I was referring to those specific words, but adding a question mark and a 'Hmmmmm' to show that they DON'T apply to THIS round thing.

Not Galadriel's Mirror. (Is it round? I didn't know).

[Urwen]

Hobbit doors?

[Pervinca Took]

Yes!

But which one in particular, and why?

[Urwen]

The one at Bag End?

[Pervinca Took]

Yes. Bag End's FRONT door. Scratched by Gandalf when he put a marking on it ... and again when he scratched it out.

Also mistreated by Saruman, I think.

Over to you!

[Urwen]

On that night I was away
T'was a night of murders and theft
And I found out, to my dismay
That I was the only one left

I escaped into the night
With what was mine by right
I was hunted down by them all
Yet my special friends answered my call

Yet history repeats itself
We knew not what was in store
Alas, we found out too quickly
And now I am the only one left once more

I was supposed to be the one dead
But his strength of will was great
He took the death blow in my stead
He broke the chains of fate

[Pervinca Took]

Well, verse 2 sounds like the 'faithful' Death Eaters finding Lord Voldemort again. Although I don't think they did, until he actually summoned them. :D

[Urwen]

Sure, but this is a Tolkien-based riddle.

[Pervinca Took]

Sure, but this is a Tolkien-based riddle.

I know. Hence the emoticon. ;)

[Urwen]

Who among you has the courage to solve this?

[Huinesoron]

Is it maybe Beren? The first stanza would be Barahir's death, and the second Beren's reclaiming of the ring. Not sure about the 'special friends' line, though.

Then the third and - especially - fourth are about Tol-in-Gaurhoth (not the game, don't get excited); the last lines are about Finrod fending off the final Wolf and saving Beren from death.

(All this maudlin brooding about how They All Keep Dying On Me is very Beren, too...)

hS

[Urwen]

Is it maybe Beren? The first stanza would be Barahir's death, and the second Beren's reclaiming of the ring. Not sure about the 'special friends' line, though.

Then the third and - especially - fourth are about Tol-in-Gaurhoth (not the game, don't get excited); the last lines are about Finrod fending off the final Wolf and saving Beren from death.

(All this maudlin brooding about how They All Keep Dying On Me is very Beren, too...)

hS


He was said to 'befriend all birds and beasts who weren't in Morgoth's service'. I wrote a story about that too.

[Huinesoron]

Brown of hand, brown of head,
Obeying others' Will each day,
Lowliest of my companions,
I, the fourth to pass away.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Brown of hand, brown of head,
Obeying others' Will each day,
Lowliest of my companions,
I, the fourth to pass away.

hS

Was Sam the 4th to finally leave the Shire ... had Merry and Pippin already gone? The other criteria fit him ... or line 2 does for the early part of his life.

[Huinesoron]

Was Sam the 4th to finally leave the Shire ... had Merry and Pippin already gone? The other criteria fit him ... or line 2 does for the early part of his life.

You're correct that it's Sam, but Merry and Pippin hung around in the Shire a couple of years after Rose died and Sam presumably left. So take another stab at explaining that line.

(As originally imagined, this riddle made it sound like an evil character, but I forgot how I was going to do that. ^_~)

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I'd say 4th of the Ringbearers, but he was 3rd.

I mean, if you're going to include Gollum, you have to include Isildur and maybe Deagol too, don't you?

[Huinesoron]

I'd say 4th of the Ringbearers, but he was 3rd.

I mean, if you're going to include Gollum, you have to include Isildur and maybe Deagol too, don't you?

And probably that Sauron guy... :) It's not Ringbearers.

You're overthinking it, I think.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

But pass away can't be 'die.' We don't know when Sam and Frodo died.

The fourth to pass the ball in an away match for the Shire Cup?

The fourth to pass the oral component of Elementary Sindarin, which you have to sit away from home?

If the fourth to pass West, the fourth of what/whom? Mortals? (Tuor, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam?)

[Urwen]

Or the fourth keeper of Red Book?

[Huinesoron]

None of the above, you're still (both!) overthinking it.

If you're counting people, and Sam is one of them, who are you counting?

hS

[Urwen]

Members of his family?

[Urwen]

Wait......

[Urwen]

Members of the Fellowship who passed away in some manner? I believe the order was Boromir - Frodo & Gandalf - Sam - Merry & Pippin, Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli

[Huinesoron]

Members of the Fellowship who passed away in some manner? I believe the order was Boromir - Frodo & Gandalf - Sam - Merry & Pippin, Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli

Dat's der birdie (though whether you count Gandalf's first death or just his passing over the Sea is an open question). It's interesting that more than half of the Fellowship wound up sailing West.

For jumping straight to Sam, the riddle passes to Pervinca - but well done Urwen for unravelling that final line.

hS

[Urwen]

Dat's der birdie (though whether you count Gandalf's first death or just his passing over the Sea is an open question). It's interesting that more than half of the Fellowship wound up sailing West.


hS


And the other half died.

[Urwen]

Now try solving my latest Who Am I puzzle. You only have to pick between two options.

[Pervinca Took]

Well done, Urwen! And nice connection, hS ... 4th to pass out of the story and to reach the end of what is known of them.

Also, none of the Fellowship were laid to rest in the Shire.

Now, let's see ....

Prepared in anticipation
But not for their end
Of noble sacrifice.

[Pervinca Took]

And the other half died.

As did all but two of those who sailed. ;)

[Urwen]

Finrod and his company of ten

[Pervinca Took]

Finrod and his company of ten

Nope.

[Urwen]

The Noldor?

[Pervinca Took]

Are my riddles usually about elves and the First Age? ;)

[Urwen]

The Fellowship?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

What other third age group is there? Thorin and company? Aragorn and his army?

[Pervinca Took]

Are my riddles usually sensible?

[Urwen]

Sam's rabbits?

[Pervinca Took]

No, but by far the closest guess so far.

[Urwen]

Hint?

[Pervinca Took]

Prepared in anticipation
But not for their end
Of noble sacrifice.

Well, what I'm looking for were prepared, but not to be sacrificed. But then they were.

Gollum sacrificed the rabbits, but didn't prepare them. In my riddle, the same person has to do both.

[Urwen]

Prepare as in cook?