Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Never mind, I just thought of it.

I was brought forth
And in turn, death I brought
I spilled the wrong blood
All because of love

(Don't pay too much attention to the third line, it's a poetic description and was put there to complete the rhyme.)

[Huinesoron]

Gurthang?

Specifically, before its reforging. [Checks] Anglachel, then. It was brought forth from Doriath by Beleg out of love for Turin, but was also the direct cause of Beleg's death (it woke Turin - and indeed, by spilling his blood).

hS

[Urwen]

Nope. This one is factual, but somewhat sneaky. And I told you the third line is poetic, as in the speaker didn't technically spill blood, but...

[Urwen]

Bump?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Is it Turin?

[Urwen]

No. Not a person.

[Huinesoron]

Could it be the Arkenstone? Bilbo brought it forth from the Lonely Mountain, and because of love for Thorin stole it and started the Battle of Five Armies, which led to Thorin's death.

hS

[Urwen]

Nope. Here's a hint: stick 'em with the pointy end.

[Urwen]

I like how you immediately solved my 'pointy end' password clue, but cannot draw the connection between that and this riddle...

[Urwen]

The answer was the javelin.


Someone make one, please?

[Huinesoron]

Which javelin?

No life, but a breath
As cold as death
Ever craving, never drinking
Clad in darkness, evil thinking

hS

[Urwen]

Eol's

Your riddle reminds me of Gollum's riddle.

Maybe the Black Death that killed me along with all the other children who succumbed?

[Huinesoron]

Your riddle reminds me of Gollum's riddle.

You noticed. :)


Maybe the Black Death that killed me along with all the other children who succumbed?

Nope.

hS

[Urwen]

The Nazgul? They crave the Ring, wear black cloaks, and are cold, as Frodo and Eowyn can attest.

[Huinesoron]

The Nazgul? They crave the Ring, wear black cloaks, and are cold, as Frodo and Eowyn can attest.

And have the Black Breath, hence "a breath / as cold as death". Yep.

hS

[Urwen]

How about another Legate-styled riddle?

You won't survive my attack in the night
Unless you have the will to fight
I kill the weak and the wee
As you clearly do see
Your loved ones are lost
For they paid the cost

[Galadriel55]

Not the Black Death for real this time? :)

[Urwen]

Not the Black Death for real this time? :)


Maybeee...:smokin:

[Galadriel55]

Try this one. Bonus points for exact references.



To black without light
Comes crescent bright.
It brings the shadow of a friend
And shade of fear from distant land.

Wake up from carefree reverie
To grim and false reality!
Inside the wood, by its long boughs
Don't listen to the ghastly sounds.

The quiet broken by a splash,
A stream that gives way to a pool.
Yet evil is this water cool -
It does not matter. Naught shall pass.

The wood is dead. It ceased to grow.
Its waters can no longer flow.
Just one is happy and serene,
Alone amid a frightful scene.

[Urwen]

Some parts seem like Turin's awakening at Ivrin, others say 'Old Man Willow'...

[Galadriel55]

Some parts seem like Turin's awakening at Ivrin, others say 'Old Man Willow'...

I'll let you think on it a bit more and maybe come up with some concrete guesses before I start pointing you to the right direction.

[Urwen]

Well, I thought for a while, and while not everything seems to fit, I am making the Old Forest my first guess

[Galadriel55]

Well, I thought for a while, and while not everything seems to fit, I am making the Old Forest my first guess

The Old Forest is incorrect, but I think you may be interpreting some of the lines correctly.

[Morsul the Dark]

Try this one. Bonus points for exact references.



To black without light
Comes crescent bright.
It brings the shadow of a friend
And shade of fear from distant land.

Wake up from carefree reverie
To grim and false reality!
Inside the wood, by its long boughs
Don't listen to the ghastly sounds.

The quiet broken by a splash,
A stream that gives way to a pool.
Yet evil is this water cool -
It does not matter. Naught shall pass.

The wood is dead. It ceased to grow.
Its waters can no longer flow.
Just one is happy and serene,
Alone amid a frightful scene.

Mirkwood?

The first paragraph could be the darkness pierced by the elven banquets.

Bombour waking up?

The poisonous sleep river?

Not sure about the wood being dead but Bilbo’s calm and peaceful moment about the trees.

[Galadriel55]

Not Mirkwood, 'mfraid.

[Urwen]

Moria?

[Morsul the Dark]

Moria?

Oh damn that fits near perfect.

[Galadriel55]

Still no. Old Forest was closest, but all of your answers are of the wrong type.

[Urwen]

Change of approach, then.


Watcher in the Water?

[Galadriel55]

Watcher in the Water?

Not him. I am assuming that for both him and for Moria you thought the water is the Sirannon? Wrong water.

[Urwen]

Oh, wait, I think I figured it out, and I can explain most of the lines too


Okay, it's one of these two, so first: Eithel Ivrin?

[Galadriel55]

Okay, it's one of these two, so first: Eithel Ivrin?

No, wrong water and wrong type of answer.

[Urwen]

Iron Mountains? :confused:


Or maybe, by wrong type, you mean that the answer is not a place, but a person/object?

[Galadriel55]

Iron Mountains? :confused:

Not Iron Mountains.

Or maybe, by wrong type, you mean that the answer is not a place, but a person/object?

I never said it's a person/object, just as I said that your previous answers were of the wrong type.

I also said that your Old Forest guess was the closest so far, because I think you've interpreted some of the lines correctly. How you got from there to Ivrin and Iron Mountains is beyond me. :confused:

[Urwen]

Okay, I'll bite.



Huorns?

[Galadriel55]

Nope.

[Urwen]

Fangorn Forest?

[Galadriel55]

Nope. Are you gonna blindly go through a list of associations?

[Urwen]

Nope. Are you gonna blindly go through a list of associations?


Well, I have no other option, so yea...


The Fellowship?

[Morsul the Dark]

Try this one. Bonus points for exact references.



To black without light
Comes crescent bright.
It brings the shadow of a friend
And shade of fear from distant land.

Wake up from carefree reverie
To grim and false reality!
Inside the wood, by its long boughs
Don't listen to the ghastly sounds.

The quiet broken by a splash,
A stream that gives way to a pool.
Yet evil is this water cool -
It does not matter. Naught shall pass.

The wood is dead. It ceased to grow.
Its waters can no longer flow.
Just one is happy and serene,
Alone amid a frightful scene.

The barrowdowns.

Taken into the darkness then the have dreams Frodo wakes up Frodo wakes up to the grim reality. The rest is probably part of the scene haven’t read it in a bit I remember rings and treasure and stuff and whispers I think?. And then the only one serene would be Bombadil.

[Galadriel55]

Well, I have no other option, so yea...

Well, if you see it that way.

The Fellowship?

Nope.

The barrowdowns.

Taken into the darkness then the have dreams Frodo wakes up Frodo wakes up to the grim reality. The rest is probably part of the scene haven’t read it in a bit I remember rings and treasure and stuff and whispers I think?. And then the only one serene would be Bombadil.

Not the Barrow Downs, but you have one important element right in there. This is a different event, but I think you're picking up on the right lines. This of what made you decide on Frodo in the Barrow Downs, and use that to look for other events that could fit in.

[Urwen]

Maybe the awakening in the Old Forest?

[Galadriel55]

Maybe the awakening in the Old Forest?

Not sure what you mean by that, but it's not the answer regardless. If you elaborate though I might be able to tell you if you're interpreting the lines correctly.

[Urwen]

Well, the tree put the Hobbits to sleep, and Tom awakened them

[Galadriel55]

Well, the tree put the Hobbits to sleep, and Tom awakened them

So, like Morsul, you're picking up on sleeping/waking. That's good, on the right track.

[Morsul the Dark]

The Dead Marshes although this is a far more poetic interpretation

The pale lights of the marsh. Frodo in a dream state wakened by Sam shadow of a friend. Hmm. The winged Nazgul. Naught shall pass could be the dead still lingering there not passing on. Dead is obvious nothing grows. Serene again a stretch Gollum not complaining about the smell. “Sméagol Bears it.”

[Galadriel55]

The Dead Marshes although this is a far more poetic interpretation

You're drifting farther again. In some ways, you actually want to go more literal.

[Morsul the Dark]

The line I keep getting drawn to is ghastly noises. Bombadil telling them to not need any nightly noises. But I’ll keep thinking.

[Urwen]

So someone awoke someone else from a pleasant dream?

[Morsul the Dark]

If this is too broad a question obviously don’t answer is the answer in LoTR or a different Tolkien work? I will not get it if it’s not LoTR :eek:

[Galadriel55]

The line I keep getting drawn to is ghastly noises. Bombadil telling them to not need any nightly noises. But I’ll keep thinking.

Good thinking. You're getting warmer.

And yes, it is in LOTR.

[Galadriel55]

Reposting for new page.


To black without light
Comes crescent bright.
It brings the shadow of a friend
And shade of fear from distant land.

Wake up from carefree reverie
To grim and false reality!
Inside the wood, by its long boughs
Don't listen to the ghastly sounds.

The quiet broken by a splash,
A stream that gives way to a pool.
Yet evil is this water cool -
It does not matter. Naught shall pass.

The wood is dead. It ceased to grow.
Its waters can no longer flow.
Just one is happy and serene,
Alone amid a frightful scene.

[Urwen]

So someone awoke someone else from a pleasant dream?


?

[Urwen]

It is their dreams. Hobbit dreams at Tom's house. Their collective dreams fit perfectly.

[Galadriel55]

It is their dreams. Hobbit dreams at Tom's house. Their collective dreams fit perfectly.

Indeed it is! In fact, here is the exact passage:

In the dead night, Frodo lay in a dream without light. Then he saw the young moon rising; under its thin light there loomed before him a black wall of rock, pierced by a dark arch like a great gate. It seemed to Frodo that he was lifted up, and passing over he saw that the rock-wall was a circle of hills, and that within it was a plain, and in the midst of the plain stood a pinnacle of stone, like a vast tower but not made by hands. On its top stood the figure of a man. The moon as it rose seemed to hang for a moment above his head and glistened in his white hair as the wind stirred it. Up from the dark plain below came the crying of fell voices, and the howling of many wolves. Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away. The voices wailed and the wolves yammered. There was a noise like a strong wind blowing, and on it was borne the sound of hoofs, galloping, galloping, galloping from the East. ‘Black Riders!’ thought Frodo as he wakened, with the sound of the hoofs still echoing in his mind. He wondered if he would ever again have the courage to leave the safety of these stone walls. He lay motionless, still listening; but all was now silent, and at last he turned and fell asleep again or wandered into some other unremembered dream.

At his side Pippin lay dreaming pleasantly; but a change came over his dreams and he turned and groaned. Suddenly he woke, or thought he had waked, and yet still heard in the darkness the sound that had disturbed his dream: tip-tap, squeak: the noise was like branches fretting in the wind, twig-fingers scraping wall and window: creak, creak, creak. He wondered if there were willow-trees close to the house; and then suddenly he had a dreadful feeling that he was not in an ordinary house at all, but inside the willow and listening to that horrible dry creaking voice laughing at him again. He sat up, and felt the soft pillows yield to his hands, and he lay down again relieved. He seemed to hear the echo of words in his ears: ‘Fear nothing! Have peace until the morning! Heed no nightly noises!’ Then he went to sleep again.

It was the sound of water that Merry heard falling into his quiet sleep: water streaming down gently, and then spreading, spreading irresistibly all round the house into a dark shoreless pool. It gurgled under the walls, and was rising slowly but surely. ‘I shall be drowned!’ he thought. It will find its way in, and then I shall drown.’ He felt that he was lying in a soft slimy bog, and springing up he set his fool on the corner of a cold hard flagstone. Then he remembered where he was and lay down again. He seemed to hear or remember hearing: ‘Nothing passes doors or windows save moonlight and starlight and the wind off the hill-top.’ A little breath of sweet air moved the curtain. He breathed deep and fell asleep again.

As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented.

Over to you.

[Urwen]

As for the references, here they come


To black without light - Frodo lay in a dream without light.
Comes crescent bright. - Then he saw the young moon rising; under its thin light there loomed before him a black wall of rock
It brings the shadow of a friend - Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away.
And shade of fear from distant land. - There was a noise like a strong wind blowing, and on it was borne the sound of hoofs, galloping, galloping, galloping from the East. 'Black Riders!' thought Frodo as he wakened, with the sound of the hoofs still echoing in his mind.

Wake up from carefree reverie - At his side Pippin lay dreaming pleasantly; but a change came over his dreams and he turned and groaned.
To grim and false reality! - Suddenly he woke, or thought he had waked, and yet still heard in the darkness the sound that had disturbed his dream: tip-tap, squeak;
Inside the wood, by its long boughs
Don't listen to the ghastly sounds. - the noise was like branches fretting in the wind, twig-fingers scraping wall and window: creak, creak, creak. He wondered if there were willow-trees close to the house; and then suddenly he had a dreadful feeling that he was not in an ordinary house at all, but inside the willow and listening to that horrible dry creaking voice laughing at him again.

The quiet broken by a splash, - It was the sound of water that Merry heard falling into his quiet sleep
A stream that gives way to a pool. - water streaming down gently, and then spreading, spreading irresistibly all round the house into a dark shoreless poo
Yet evil is this water cool -It gurgled under the walls, and was rising slowly but surely. 'I shall be drowned!' he thought. It will find its way in, and then I shall drown.'
It does not matter. Naught shall pass. - 'Nothing passes doors or windows save moonlight and starlight and the wind off the hill-top.'

The wood is dead. It ceased to grow.
Its waters can no longer flow.
Just one is happy and serene,
Alone amid a frightful scene. -
As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented.

[Urwen]

Well, I need to go to bed, as I need to get up early tomorrow, so I will post something when I wake up.

[Urwen]

Well, let's see if I can make a good one.


Where I came from
I'll tell you now
I'm descendant of the friend
Of the one who strayed

I am the one who came to aid
To the army of the land of stone
I am the one who took part
In the plans to help destroy the One

Here is where I became the helper
To my future family member
My nephew dear wed her
My daughter wed her brother

(Given my track record, the last verse will probably make it too easy...)

[Huinesoron]

You being you, is it Hurin? I'm not sure about the first verse, but:

I am the one who came to aid
To the army of the land of stone
I am the one who took part
In the plans to help destroy the One


Gondolin is a "land of stone" - most of its names have a stone-word in them somewhere; Hurin was captured guarding the retreat of Turgon's army. The "plans to help destroy the One" would refer to the Nirnaeth, which was planned to destroy Morgoth, in which Hurin took part.

Here is where I became the helper
To my future family member
My nephew dear wed her

By rescuing Turgon, Hurin helped Idril by not getting her city overrun (at that point)*. She later went on to marry his nephew Tuor, making her a future member of his family.

*I guess she might also have been present? Tolkien doesn't mention either way, but she could have been support/healing personnel.

My daughter wed her brother

The natural read of 'her' is back to the 'future family member', but, er... Hurin's daughter wed her (own) brother. ^_~

hS

[Urwen]

Nope. 'her' in the last line refers to the brother of his nephew's bride, not daughter's brother...

And there is a reason 'One' is capitalized...

Trust me, when you find the answer, every line will make sense.

[Galadriel55]

Well, the Land of Stone could be Gondor. I initially thought Aragorn, but I am not aware that he had any siblings to give him nephews. However, Imrahil of Dol-Amroth fits nicely.



Where I came from - Dol Amroth
I'll tell you now
I'm descendant of the friend - the Elvish blood that Legolas instantly recognizes
Of the one who strayed - Nimrodel and her friend... forget her name. Something with a Z?

I am the one who came to aid
To the army of the land of stone - the knights of Dol-Amroth, marching to Minas Tirith
I am the one who took part
In the plans to help destroy the One - part of the Last Council, planning what to do not just with the one big Enemy but with the One Ring.

Here is where I became the helper
To my future family member - by recognizing Eowyn is alive
My nephew dear wed her - As I recall, Faramir is his nephew
My daughter wed her brother - As I don't recall but is entirely possible, Eomer wed his daughter presumably

[Urwen]

Precisely.

[Galadriel55]

Don't have the energy for proper poetry, but equally no energy for proper difficulty. Should be an easy one.



In dark night
In strange land
We must press
On our quest.

By your house
We stand tall,
As if guards
If not guests.

The morn comes,
Our quest calls.
We must away
Ere break of day.

We're not what
They first thought.
A garb shall
Be our mark.

[Morsul the Dark]

Lommy! Wait wrong thread.:p

I feel like the Huorn fit but this riddle seems more sinister although I suppose they are. Also the end verse definitely doesn’t work

[Galadriel55]

Not Huorns, but I thought they might be a consideration.

[Urwen]

Sounds to me like riders of Rohan riding to Gondor...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The last part makes me think of the Dead of Dunharrow, but not sure if all of the rest would fit completely... The second part makes me think of the Púkel-men in that connection, but then again, "tall" is not the adjective one would use about them, of all...

[Galadriel55]

'Fraid not. They are indeed tall, quite so. Rohan/Pukel-men are both in the wrong direction.

[Urwen]

So someone is literally standing by someone's house? Literally?

Misty Mountains? They protect the House of Elrond and are very tall...

[Huinesoron]

I was wondering about "a garb shall be our mark", and remembered that the Rangers of Arnor wore a silver star. They're also noted for being tall, and for standing guard over the Shire and surrounding communities. And they're rather more than most people take them for at first glance.

If the "quest" is more than just a synonym for 'task', it could point specifically at the Grey Company. Did they have that name because they wore grey? Apparently they did, so I think they work really well.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Neither Rangers nor mountains. Urwen, aside from being tall, mountains don't fulfill any other requirements of the riddle.

Would it help if I told you that in describing this event sequence, I conveniently omitted certain actions that would give it away entirely? There is a bit more to this story that went unsaid.

[Huinesoron]

What I like about this riddle is that it's relatively easy to hit any three of the verses, but very tricky to meet all four.

It's not the Black Riders in the Shire, is it? Verse 2 is the tricky one there, and:

Outside the gate they stopped, and three black figures entered, like shades of night creeping across the ground. One went to the door, one to the corner of the house on either side; and there they stood, as still as the shadows of stones, while night went slowly on.

And they are Big Folk.

EDIT: "We're not what they first thought" - the Bucklanders thought it could be 'some strange invasion from the Old Forest'. "A garb shall be our mark" - they drop a Hobbit cloak while riding away. (Which shows them to be a lot subtler than Jackson would have it...)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Yes indeed! The Black Riders at Crickhollow. Over to you Hui!

[Huinesoron]

Inspired by the chronological style of that one:

Created, blessed,
Guarded, repossessed,
Coveted, worn,
Rescued, borne,
Devoured, retrieved,
Worn again, thieved,
Reclaimed, worn,
Fought over, borne,
Worn once more, fallen,
Bound upon, followed,
Carried high, seen,
Who have I been?

hS

[Morsul the Dark]

It’s almost too obvious to be the right answer but the ring fits pretty much perfect.

Crated and blessed by Sauron (would you call that blessed not sure but to him it is.)

Guarded/repossessed is a bit tricky Guarded could be Sauron or isildur

Coveted worn Isildur taking the ring for himself


Next few lines could be Gollum then thieved of course by Bilbo

Then the rest is easily the quest

[Huinesoron]

It is not the Ring. :) That would've required a 'lost' or somesuch between Worn (by Isildur) and Rescued (by Gollum); the answer here was never lost.

But I do like your thinking.

hS

[Urwen]

The first three lines scream 'The Silmarils'. I'll see if I can fit the rest

[Urwen]

Created, blessed,
Guarded, repossessed, - Self-explanatory
Coveted, worn, - Coveted and worn by Morgoth, as part of his crown
Rescued, borne, - Rescued from Morgoth by Beren, Eagles carried it along with him.
Devoured, retrieved, - Devoured by ole' Carcharoth, retrieved when he was killed.
Worn again, thieved,
Reclaimed, worn, -
Dior wore them after his parents died; coveted by Thingol, and later on, by Dwarves of Belegost; Dior reclaimed it from them and wore it again Fought over, borne, - The Battle of the Havens, carried off by Elwing
Worn once more, fallen, - With Maedhros
Bound upon, followed,
Carried high, seen, - As the Star of Earendil
Who have I been?

[Huinesoron]

The first three lines scream 'The Silmarils'. I'll see if I can fit the rest

Yep! Specifically Earendil's, which you called out in your full explanation. Good answer, over to you.

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, here is a quick one, because I am lazy.

Splish splash
And a clash
Don't be rash
Or you will thrash.

[Galadriel55]

I will throw out a guess of Gollum in the pool of Henneth Annun. Don't go for the fishies, or the Rangers will get you.

[Urwen]

I kinda had something else in mind, but I forgot what, and your answer fits. So you can have the next round.

[Galadriel55]

I kinda had something else in mind, but I forgot what, and your answer fits. So you can have the next round.

Thanks. I am actually having a very busy time IRL right now though, I don't really have the time or the mental energy to write a riddle. So I will pass up the turn and open the floor to whoever wants to have a go.

[Urwen]

Anyone?

[Galadriel55]

I figured that as I have some claim to this thread, I will start here. Here is some stream of consciousness poetry for a riddle. Please try to identify/explain specific elements in your answer.


The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn.

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread,
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget.

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland.
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Pervinca Took]

Is verse 1 the 1st and 2nd elf, and then Feanor burning the ships and ... not sure what else, then getting killed by a Balrog?

[Urwen]

The first three lines of verse 2 sound like Turin, Nienor and Lalaith.

[Galadriel55]

Is verse 1 the 1st and 2nd elf, and then Feanor burning the ships and ... not sure what else, then getting killed by a Balrog?

Feanor burning stuff and getting killed is in verse 1, correct. But he is not the focus of the riddle. And I'm not sure who you mean by first and second Elf, but that is not it. It might be easier to interpret "Second" in relation to Feanor - those elements are connected.

The first three lines of verse 2 sound like Turin, Nienor and Lalaith.

I knew that these lines would sound like the Hin Hurin lot, and purposefully played up the parallel. However, these three don't figure in the riddle.

[Urwen]

That sounds like Maglor, Feanor's second son and the last survivor of his line outside of Aman.

[Galadriel55]

That sounds like Maglor, Feanor's second son and the last survivor of his line outside of Aman.

Alas, not Maglor. Think more broad. You might also have more luck getting to the root of the riddle with the latter stanzas.

[Pervinca Took]

Is the last verse about Aragorn? Is the motherland Numenor?

Tears sounds like Nienna. She lived alone, but did she have a sister?

I meant the first and second elves to wake - was the first called Imin?

What else did Feanor burn, or did you mean the ships and his spirit in general, or the life-force of his mother?

[Galadriel55]

Is the last verse about Aragorn? Is the motherland Numenor?

No to both. The entire riddle talks about a single group, of which "I" is "the last". Motherland is not Numenor, but you have the right scale of destruction.

Tears sounds like Nienna. She lived alone, but did she have a sister?

Nienna is not one of the sisters.

I meant the first and second elves to wake - was the first called Imin?

Not them. The "oldest one" and "second" come from the same group as "the last". "Second" with an S is a separate entity.

What else did Feanor burn, or did you mean the ships and his spirit in general, or the life-force of his mother?

I was thinking Alqualonde and ships at Losgar. And I hope I didn't miss another major burning by him before he went up in flames himself - though it would be irrelevant, that line just refers to Feanor and his death, and you got that element already.


I thought this riddle would be really easy. It is very much a description cloaked in vague poetry. Some elements are very precise, and you can crack at them in similar fashion to Feanor. For this approach I can point you to the "estel" line - that too refers to very specific event and people. As another clue for "Second" - Second came from countries far, and that is important.

But in this case, you can also try to read the poetic gist of the riddle for a gestalt feeling. Also, knowing that the riddle talks about a group of related entities where "eldest", "second", and "last" are more clearly defined and some "sisters" in the second stanza are a bit more vaguely described - see if just by reading it as a poem you have any unifying theme jumping out at you, almost password-style.

[Galadriel55]

Reposting on new page:



The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn.

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread,
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget.

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland.
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Urwen]

I am thinking the 'second' is Finrod, and 'Second' are the Secondborn. But Finrod had only one sister. His father, however, had two...

[Galadriel55]

I am thinking the 'second' is Finrod, and 'Second' are the Secondborn. But Finrod had only one sister. His father, however, had two...

"second" is not Finrod. Remember, this one is part of the group - the second in that series. I recommend not focusing on this for now though because you will get there easier either by sorting out the supporting elements, or by figuring out the sisters.

"Second" is not Secondborn, but you are on the right track with the type of answer this refers to. Just wrong group of people.

I seriously thought this riddle was gonna be easier, but I guess all riddles are easy when you know the answer. So trying to give hints aplenty without spoiling it.

[Urwen]

Hmm...maybe it involves the second among the three Elven tribes...or maybe Second among the Edain houses...

[Galadriel55]

Hmm...maybe it involves the second among the three Elven tribes...or maybe Second among the Edain houses...

Maybe. ;) I also suggest looking at that line in context - look at the line before, and the next two lines that follow. You know that the last line of the stanza refers to Feanor's death.

[Urwen]

Hmm, I think the first stanza refers to the coming of Noldor to Beleriand, and Noldor are one of the 'seconds'. The other 'second' are Edain, and the only one who is the last of both of those races is Elrond...who was also raised by the Second.

[Galadriel55]

Hmm, I think the first stanza refers to the coming of Noldor to Beleriand, and Noldor are one of the 'seconds'. The other 'second' are Edain, and the only one who is the last of both of those races is Elrond...who was also raised by the Second.

The Noldor are the Second. They came "in second's turn", just before Feanor died. The Edain didn't even wake yet, so they are not the "second". Besides, there is more to that series than just 2. "Last" is not "last of the Second/second", but: there was a first, a second, some more, and a last.

Since with team effort you have made a fair bit of progress with the first stanza, think about what the initial lines could mean as well. The second line is not random. Neither is the third.

If you are getting stuck with the first stanza though, try looking at the end of the second one. That is another place where you can get an element or two sorted to help orient yourself to the time and place: "Breaking resistance, kindling dread, Incinerating every shred Of estel in the lord now dead Whose line was estel to beget". Who is the lord (now dead)?

[Urwen]

Well, that could refer to Finwe, Turgon, Hador, Galdor, Huor, Tuor, Fingolfin, Thingol, Barahir, Beren, or many Kings of Numenor and Gondor, and the stewards which came after.

[Galadriel55]

Well, that could refer to Finwe, Turgon, Hador, Galdor, Huor, Tuor, Fingolfin, Thingol, Barahir, Beren, or many Kings of Numenor and Gondor, and the stewards which came after.

Not sure which element you are talking about here. Can you be more specific about what part of the riddle you are answering - or the riddle as a whole?

[Urwen]

Not sure which element you are talking about here. Can you be more specific about what part of the riddle you are answering - or the riddle as a whole?


I just listed all the ancestors of Estel (Aragorn)

[Galadriel55]

I just listed all the ancestors of Estel (Aragorn)

Well, he's had more ancestors than that. You're right that Estel is Aragorn, and you need an ancestor. But as he had so many, going through all of them will be horribly inefficient. There is more information about this particular lord - what happened to him? This is a pivotal moment in the story. For instance, I wouldn'y say that Barahir lost every shred of estel.

[Huinesoron]

I'm pretty sure the Lord Now Dead is Fingolfin.

Is one of the group described in only three words? Despite being arguably the most prominent?

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I have a couple of ideas as to who the answer is, but none of them fits with the 'sisters' part.

For instance, if Feanor is the first or the second, then the last would be Gil-Galad, and the group would be High Kings of the Noldor.

[Urwen]

Oh, wait, I just had a though, and ironically, Huey's thread inspired this reasoning.



Okay, so the answer are Finwes, as a group. It explains every line quite nicely too.

[Galadriel55]

I'm pretty sure the Lord Now Dead is Fingolfin.

Is one of the group described in only three words? Despite being arguably the most prominent?

hS

Yes, and yes. I think you're onto something.

Okay, so the answer are Finwes, as a group. It explains every line quite nicely too.

I am curious how you would explain it then, because it is not the Finwes, nor the High Kings.

[Urwen]

Which other group could Feanor be a part of, then?

[Urwen]

Or maybe it's like this. First verse describes Feanor, second verse describes Fingolfin/Findis/Irime, third verse describes Finarfin.

[Galadriel55]

Which other group could Feanor be a part of, then?

Feanor was never part of the group. Not sure where you got that from. "second" is not the same as "who twice had torched etc".

[Urwen]

So it's [Noldor] came in [???]'s turn.

[Galadriel55]

So it's [Noldor] came in [???]'s turn.

Correct.

[Urwen]

Maybe the unknown is Tilion or Arien, or one of the stars...

[Galadriel55]

Maybe the unknown is Tilion or Arien, or one of the stars...

By unknown do you mean the ??? in your last post, the "second"? Right timeframe, wrong category of answers. You're not looking for celestial bodies.

[Urwen]

Well, knowing you, it's probably a body of water of some sort, like Drengist.

[Galadriel55]

Well, knowing you, it's probably a body of water of some sort, like Drengist.

...Aaaand we get to the part where we debate whether "sisters" can refer to non-humanoids. :D

You are correct in that knowing me, "second" may very well not be a person. But it is not a body of water either.

[Urwen]

Well, you used the word 'sister' to refer to rivers and arrows, if I am not mistaken.

[Galadriel55]

Well, you used the word 'sister' to refer to rivers and arrows, if I am not mistaken.

I had an arrow riddle, yes... Can't remember the river, but very possible... I referred to a castle as "lady" at one point... And yes, I tend to use personification a lot. You know me. ;) But that doesn't mean the word "sisters" means the same thing every time.

[Urwen]

Well, if they are humanoid, then the only sisters that existed during that time period are Valier and Finwe's two daughters. And there aren't many sister duos in Arda, to be fair.

[Galadriel55]

Well, if they are humanoid, then the only sisters that existed during that time period are Valier and Finwe's two daughters. And there aren't many sister duos in Arda, to be fair.

Just forget the word "sisters" for now and replace with "group members". It's gonna make your life easier.

Team effort identified Feanor and Fingolfin. You have a timeframe/setting for two of the stanzas. It's time to start putting it together. Once again, try thinking of this as a password and find the unifying theme.

[Urwen]

Well, you said Feanor is not a part of this group, but the second is, and apparently Fingolfin is too... *scratches head*

[Urwen]

Why do I feel like ??? is the eldest? Of Balrogs? *thinking*

[Galadriel55]

Well, you said Feanor is not a part of this group, but the second is, and apparently Fingolfin is too... *scratches head*

...No, Fingolfin is not. Fingolfin is the lord who lost all hope, not one of the group. Not every element of the riddle is part of the final answer, and you need to be careful not to confuse them. Knowing Fingolfin though, read the second stanza again and see if you can work backwards up the text - what do the preceding lines mean?

[Galadriel55]

Why do I feel like ??? is the eldest? Of Balrogs? *thinking*

Again not sure about which element you are referring to ("oldest" or "second"?), but neither of those is a balrog.

[Urwen]

Well, the preceding lines mean that there is a pair of sisters, who are somehow connected with Fingolfin.

But with the way you're talking, I picture in my head some group that it unseen, who destroyed their motherland, somehow. And I keep thinking about some group of 'bad guys'.

[Galadriel55]

Well, the preceding lines mean that there is a pair of sisters, who are somehow connected with Fingolfin.

No. In fact, there are more than a pair. And they are described out of order. They are not connected with Fingolfin any more than "second" is woth Feanor - both Fs are there to give context and to ground you in some specific characters and events. For preceding lines, don't go as far back as sisters. Start with "a burst", and see if you can interpret just that passage, knowing that the lord is Fingolfin.

But with the way you're talking, I picture in my head some group that it unseen, who destroyed their motherland, somehow. And I keep thinking about some group of 'bad guys'.

The group is not unseen, nor villains. But you are not thinking in the right categories.

It might make your riddling easier too if you take "sisters" less literally, but take a number of other lines more literally. Stop fixating on sisters. But see if a literalnread of some poetic aoubding stuff gives you more info.

[Urwen]

A burst of fire?

[Galadriel55]

A burst of fire?

That is for you to determine. I think you can go a bit further here with the clues you've had without more specific hints about the burst, so give it a bit of a go first and see if you can get to the crux of the stanza rather than just single words here and there. See if you can untangle the second half of the middle stanza.

[Urwen]

Ah, I see now. The thing that made Fingolfin lose hope.

[Urwen]

Ah, I see. In one passage it says that Orcs attacked Beleriand, and wrecked lake Helevorn. Now, lake Helevorn could be Cuivinen, and if we take the theory that Orcs are corrupted Elves, well...

Or, that line could be referring to the Beleriand as a whole, as a homeland which Orcs destroyed.

And the 'burst' is Dagor Aglareb, which literally started with a burst, a burst of lava.

[Galadriel55]

You are on the right general track but lots of incorrect things in your answer. And I am not really clear about which lines you are referring to in your guess, except -

And the 'burst' is Dagor Aglareb, which literally started with a burst, a burst of lava.


It is not, but you are gonna kick yourself.

[Galadriel55]

Reposting on new page. A whole page of guesses for the same riddle! :eek:



The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn.

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread,
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget.

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland.
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Urwen]

Okay, now I am confused. That type of comment is usually made when it's something I am super-infested in, but you said it's not Feanor and company and you also said it's not Turin & company, and the lines don't sound like they are describing Maeglin and company either.

[Galadriel55]

Okay, now I am confused. That type of comment is usually made when it's something I am super-infested in, but you said it's not Feanor and company and you also said it's not Turin & company, and the lines don't sound like they are describing Maeglin and company either.

No, no. Just that your guess for the burst is a perfect close-but-no-cigar, and you will kick yourself when you know the answer. Also, I hope you are not infested in Feanors and Turins. ;):p

[Urwen]

No, no. Just that your guess for the burst is a perfect close-but-no-cigar, and you will kick yourself when you know the answer. Also, I hope you are not infested in Feanors and Turins. ;):p


Well, actually, I'd love to be infested by Feanors and Turins.

[Urwen]

Oh, and I misread the name. It's not Dagor Aglareb, but Dagor Bragollach.

[Galadriel55]

Oh, and I misread the name. It's not Dagor Aglareb, but Dagor Bragollach.

Yes. Aglareb also had a bit of a firework display IIRC, but Bragollach was the more impressive one.

[Urwen]

Okay, I now think I can explain the riddle. Or at least some parts of it.



The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn. - Feanor

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread, - Dagor Bragollach
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget. - Fingolfin

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland. - Orcs, who destroyed Beleriand
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Galadriel55]

Well, Feanor amd Fingolfin you had before, now you have Dagor Bragollach, but the main question of who is I and who are "we" (i.e. the group) remain in shadow. They are not Orcs.

[Huinesoron]

It looks to me like the group can be placed on the timeline of the First Age:

"The oldest one, the nameless one"

"The [Noldor] came in second's turn"

Then Feanor dies.

"younger sister... one for tears" - interestingly, there's nothing to say where this sister falls in the timeline.

"And one for joy, resounding joy"

Then "peace was guarded well".

Then the Dagor Bragollach takes up most of the second stanza, with Fingolfin's death.

"I'm not the least, but I'm the last"

Then "we destroyed our motherland", which means the motherland (Beleriand?) must have existed until the last's time.

That's five clearly marked members of the group - but the poem also says "You cannot count us on one hand".

hS

[Galadriel55]

Precisely. I knew you knew what you're talking about with your first post (though I should make a correction - technically 5 words, not 3). The answer is yours to claim - but if you are deferring to Urwen for the final step, Urwen, I suggest you read Hui's post very closely.

It looks to me like the group can be placed on the timeline of the First Age

Yes indeed. I was thinking to myself as I was writing it that it was like trying to compose an abridged history of the First Age in verse.

[Huinesoron]

Precisely. I knew you knew what you're talking about with your first post (though I should make a correction - technically 5 words, not 3). The answer is yours to claim - but if you are deferring to Urwen for the final step, Urwen, I suggest you read Hui's post very closely.


I think I fluked into the right answer while musing over the Fingolfin part, but it looked like Urwen was having fun, and, like... fun is the point of the thread.

hS

[Urwen]

I think that the 'joy' sister is Lalwen.

[Urwen]

So if the riddle is literal, then maybe the group members literally have underlined names. But that post also says that 'the last' may be more than one person, suggesting Amrod and Amras...

[Urwen]

Also, how about a compromise? If I don't get it after three days, then Huey can post his answer.

[Galadriel55]

No, no, no..... getting colder again. No to Lalwen, no to all of Fingolfin's sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and other relations. Fingolfin is NOT PART OF THE GROUP. Nor are his various family members. Fingolfin is only there as part of the events of the Bragollach.

So if the riddle is literal, then maybe the group members literally have underlined names. But that post also says that 'the last' may be more than one person, suggesting Amrod and Amras...

The last is "I", singular. "We/us" is the group in its entirety.

[Urwen]

Well, it isn't Ainur, Elves, Men or Orcs...q.q

Also, technically, all of these races except Orcs are part of Fingolfin's relations. And Orcs could be too, both because they were once Elves and...well, if the rumor is true about Meglin being a half-Orc...

[Galadriel55]

Also, how about a compromise? If I don't get it after three days, then Huey can post his answer.

It's up to the two of you, really. If you feel that you're getting more frustration than enjoyment, it might be something to consider. I ain't going anywhere, I'm happy to keep riddling for three days or ten days or however long. :)

[Galadriel55]

Well, it isn't Ainur, Elves, Men or Orcs...q.q

Yup. :Merisu:

[Urwen]

Well, I just so happen to have a theory...

Ents, perhaps? In which case, the person of joy could be Merry...but then who is the one for tears? And ents don't have a nameless one, but Dwarves do, the first one whom Aule wanted to smash...but there are no sisters there...and neither ents nor Dwarves destroyed their homeland.

Valar could be blamed for the sinking of Beleriand, but you said it's not them...unless... *goes to check something out*

[Galadriel55]

What can I say? You have already pointed out the problems with those guesses yourself.

[Urwen]

Maybe it's the Battles themselves? The first unnamed Battle between Valar and Morgoth, then Dagor nuin Gilliath, then Dagor Aglareb, which could stand for joy, then Dagor Bragollach, then Nirnaeth, which is obviously tears, and finally, the War of Wrath, which destroyed Beleriand.

[Galadriel55]

Ye! Utuvienyes! At last! :D The six great battles of Beleriand. The first is the First Battle, not the prehistoric Valar wars, but otherwise this answer is correct. Here is the breakdown:


The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.

The First Battle took place before the Sun. As far as I can remember, it is also the only battle without a proper name, it's just "the first" battle.

But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn.

Dagor-nuin-giliath, the Second Battle, was fought in the light of the stars right after the Noldor returned from overseas. The Noldor were victorious, but Feanor died.

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,

The Nirnaeth.

And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well...

The Aglareb, the Glorious Battle, which failed to vanquish Morgoth but set the Leauer to fence him in.

...until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -

Between the Aglareb and Nirnaeth

But stopping short of western hills -

The assault was fended off in Hithlum

A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread,
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget.

The Bragollach happened, literally burning a lot of stuff, driving Fingolfin to despair.

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.

The War of Wrath - literally, rage. Interestingly, on the topic of battle names, I am not sure if it has a name in Elvish. But that is a side thought.

You cannot count us on one hand -

Not unless you are the Six-Fingered Count from Princess Bride, but the count doesn't count. ;)

Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,

Only six of them, though some undoubtedly would feel that it was six too many.

And we destroyed our motherland.

Beleriand was ruined bit by bit during the wars and altogether wrecked in the War of Wrath.

I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

The Sixth Battle marks the boundary of the First Age.




And now, after a tenacious effort, over to Urwen!

[Urwen]

Well, as it happens, I already had a riddle prepared. This one is likewise based on a song, with few alterations


It's the choices that I made
And the paths I didn't take
That led to this fate
I should've let them close the gate

All the things that I've done
And the ones that I helped break
All the wrongs I've done
My fate is cold and bleak

Every obstacle on the road
Every branching path
Means a choice I wish I didn't make
I wish I chose a different path to take

It was so hard to see ahead
Though behind it all, my path was clear
If I'd only known that then
But there is no start again

I cannot erase the stains
On the life I have lead
They tried to warn me
But I didn't heed their warnings
For I was too blind to see

All the things I can't forget
All the harm that I've done
When I failed to be a friend
When I broke but did not mend

Could I learn the lesson there
Could I do more than just regret
I should have known who was right
I should've listened

[Galadriel55]

The predominant theme of the riddle is repeatedly regretting choices and poor outcomes, which means TURIN has to be guessed at some point as being the character with most to regret in that sense.

[Huinesoron]

The predominant theme of the riddle is repeatedly regretting choices and poor outcomes, which means TURIN has to be guessed at some point as being the character with most to regret in that sense.

I almost replied yesterday with "what's the reason this ISN'T Turin", but decided to take another look before I did.

I wonder if the gate in line 4 is literal? That could point more towards Feanor, specifically the part where he chatted with Melkor at the gate of Formenos.

hS

[Urwen]

Sorry, Huey, but G55 has it.


Yes, the line 4 is literal, but it refers to Nargothrond's gate.

[Galadriel55]

Yes, the line 4 is literal, but it refers to Nargothrond's gate.

That was what I thought, but wasn't sure because as I recall it was more about the bridge.

Anyways, Hui, if you wanna have a go, it's yours. You've had pretty mich equal claim to both past riddles, and I just had a turn.

[Huinesoron]

That was what I thought, but wasn't sure because as I recall it was more about the bridge.

Anyways, Hui, if you wanna have a go, it's yours. You've had pretty mich equal claim to both past riddles, and I just had a turn.

Thanks, but I have no ideas, which is the other reason I didn't go for it.

hS

[Urwen]

Would anyone else consider this?

I don't want this to turn into 'one person is giving riddles and everyone else is guessing' thread.

[Galadriel55]

Would anyone else consider this?

I don't want this to turn into 'one person is giving riddles and everyone else is guessing' thread.

If someone else has a riddle ready, go for it. I just have a patch of busy IRL, and though I've thought of a seedling of an idea for a riddle, I haven't been able to formulate it yet. So if anyone wants to take the floor, go for it.

[Urwen]

Well, I can wait until someone else has it ready.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, I've struggled with this one for several days, but I think maybe brevity is the answer here:

The choice is mine:
The victor who failed,
The line that failed,
Or the law that failed.
Which?

hS

[Urwen]

First line reminds me of Isildur, winning against Sauron in combat, but failing to destroy the Ring. Meanwhile, line three reminds me of Miriel, who had the law on her side, but got usurped anyway...

[Huinesoron]

First line reminds me of Isildur, winning against Sauron in combat, but failing to destroy the Ring. Meanwhile, line three reminds me of Miriel, who had the law on her side, but got usurped anyway...

The first line has nothing to do with Isildur. The third line... you're right about the law, and the line is not directly about Miriel.

hS

[Urwen]

Hm, is it Phary? All the lines fit him...

[Huinesoron]

Hm, is it Phary? All the lines fit him...

(Ar-)Pharazon has nothing to do with this riddle, and the question is about a choice. You need to figure out which of the three the speaker chose.

hS

[Urwen]

So someone had to choose between the three that were mentioned in other three lines?

[Huinesoron]

So someone had to choose between the three that were mentioned in other three lines?

Correct.

hS

[Urwen]

The choice is mine:
The victor who failed, - ???
The line that failed, - Line of Isildur
Or the law that failed. - Aldarion's law, possibly
Which?

[Huinesoron]

The choice is mine:
The victor who failed, - ???
The line that failed, - Line of Isildur
Or the law that failed. - Aldarion's law, possibly
Which?

Those are the literal meanings of the lines, yes.

hS

[Urwen]

Then the victor line is literal too, and so the 'victor' is Romendacil/Hyarmendacil

[Huinesoron]

Then the victor line is literal too, and so the 'victor' is Romendacil/Hyarmendacil

Nope, not a -dacil.

hS

[Urwen]

I also considered Boromir, but he doesn't fit, not really.

But now I am intrigued...

[Huinesoron]

I also considered Boromir, but he doesn't fit, not really.

No, he doesn't, but the line is indeed literal.

hS

[Galadriel55]

If you are right about the line ans the law, Urwen, I wonder if this has anything to do with Arvedui's claim to the throne of Gondor via his wife. I am not sure who the victor would be in this scenario though.

[Huinesoron]

If you are right about the line ans the law, Urwen, I wonder if this has anything to do with Arvedui's claim to the throne of Gondor via his wife. I am not sure who the victor would be in this scenario though.

This is good thinking.

hS

[Urwen]

I see it now. Pelendur is the answer. Explanation...

The choice is mine: - Pelendur's
The victor who failed, - Earnil
The line that failed, - Arvedui's claim
Or the law that failed. - Firiel's claim
Which? - And he chose the victor.

[Huinesoron]

I see it now. Pelendur is the answer. Explanation...

The choice is mine: - Pelendur's
The victor who failed, - Earnil
The line that failed, - Arvedui's claim
Or the law that failed. - Firiel's claim
Which? - And he chose the victor.

Correct! It's interesting that Tolkien never quite positions Firiel as a candidate for the throne - he uses her claim under Numenorean law as support for Arvedui's candidacy. Arvedui seems to be trying to claim the throne of Gondor jure uxoris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jure_uxoris) ("by right of the wife"), which isn't something that ever happened elsewhere in Middle-earth. The closest precedent would be Pharazon, but he is specifically held to have usurped the Sceptre.

The second closest precedent is actually the reverse: Lalia the Great (https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Lalia_Clayhanger) was head of the Took family for 22 years by something close to right of her husband, at least after his death. Somehow I don't think the Gondorians were using Shire-Hobbit inheritance rules though!

Anyway, I prefer to believe that Firiel was a candidate in her own right, and that the Gondorians suppressed mention of her afterwards. Sounds plausible.

Over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

How about something simple again?

My marriage wasn't pleasant
But I'll let that slide
For my son and granddaughter
Had the law on their side

This one is inspired by Huey's, kind of.

[Huinesoron]

How about something simple again?

My marriage wasn't pleasant
But I'll let that slide
For my son and granddaughter
Had the law on their side

This one is inspired by Huey's, kind of.

It took me a few runs at it, but is this Inzilbeth? She was married unwillingly to Ar-Gimilzor, despite being of the Faithful; but through her, Tar-Palantir and Tar-Miriel attempted to restore the faith of Numenor, despite both being challenged by weaker claimants to the sceptre.

hS

[Urwen]

It took me a few runs at it, but is this Inzilbeth? She was married unwillingly to Ar-Gimilzor, despite being of the Faithful; but through her, Tar-Palantir and Tar-Miriel attempted to restore the faith of Numenor, despite both being challenged by weaker claimants to the sceptre.

hS


Yes.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, August has been a royal pain, but I'm back with this. I really wanted to do one around Dante's Inferno, just listing someone who would be in each Circle, but that... turns out to be really hard, so this riddle is no relation to that one.

A flower and a colour grown, roasted, or tanned,
A bloom and a plant we can use for ourselves,
A blossom and one who toils hard on the land,
A princess and family with grace of the elves.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I've been giving this a ponder but can't say I've had much luck, though I feel like the riddle is already brilliant with the structure or the four pairs. What I can't figure out is if they are different things or all one and the same. There also seems to be a botanical theme in the descriptions which vaguely puts me in mind of hobbit names. The most specific guess I can offer is ROSE for the first line - both a flower and a colour.

[Huinesoron]

I've been giving this a ponder but can't say I've had much luck, though I feel like the riddle is already brilliant with the structure or the four pairs. What I can't figure out is if they are different things or all one and the same. There also seems to be a botanical theme in the descriptions which vaguely puts me in mind of hobbit names. The most specific guess I can offer is ROSE for the first line - both a flower and a colour.

Hobbit names is a good line of thinking, but the first line is not Rose. Hmm... I will also say that the four pairs are four pairs, not multiple clues for the same words.

hS

[Pitchwife]

I'm guessing it's the names of four female hobbits, and the botanical or 'princess' part is the first name and the rest the last name, right?


Verse 2 could be Rose Cotton, a bloom and a plant we use to clothe ourselves.
one who toils hard on the land could be Gardner, or possibly Burrows?
family with grace of the elves could be Gamgee or Gardner again (Galadriel's gift)


Is verse 1 Gilly Brownlock? Gillyflower + roasting or tanning tend to produce brown colours.

[Huinesoron]

I'm guessing it's the names of four female hobbits, and the botanical or 'princess' part is the first name and the rest the last name, right?

Correct in all respects.

Verse 2 could be Rose Cotton, a bloom and a plant we use to clothe ourselves.

Line 2 is Rose Cotton.

one who toils hard on the land could be Gardner, or possibly Burrows?

Line 3 is a Gardner.


family with grace of the elves could be Gamgee or Gardner again (Galadriel's gift)

Is verse 1 Gilly Brownlock? Gillyflower + roasting or tanning tend to produce brown colours.

None of these are correct, but you're right about what colour those things lead to. :)

hS

[Pitchwife]

So line 3 could be any of Elanor, Rose, Daisy or Primrose. But which?


Family with grace of the elves could be Baggins, as both Frodo and Bilbo were elf-friends, but I can't think of any who might be considered a princess.

[Huinesoron]

So line 3 could be any of Elanor, Rose, Daisy or Primrose. But which?

It is indeed one of those. :D


Family with grace of the elves could be Baggins, as both Frodo and Bilbo were elf-friends, but I can't think of any who might be considered a princess.

"Of the Elves" is mostly for the rhyme; 'family' is probably more relevant. You are looking for the meaning of the name.

hS

[Urwen]

Line 1 could be Lily Brown.

[Pitchwife]

It is indeed one of those.
Ooooh it's Elanor, right? Blossom of Dwimordene :D

Line 1 could be Lily Brown.
I was going to say you must be right, but who is Lily Brown?

[Huinesoron]

Line 1 could be Lily Brown.

Indeed it is!

Ooooh it's Elanor, right? Blossom of Dwimordene :D

And indeed she is.

A flower and a colour grown, roasted, or tanned, - Lily Brown
A bloom and a plant we can use for ourselves, - Rose Cotton
A blossom and one who toils hard on the land, - Elanor Gardner
A princess and family with grace of the elves. - ????????

Probably the hardest just from the clue, but if you can figure out why those three then the fourth should be pretty simple.

I was going to say you must be right, but who is Lily Brown?

Well, that's the question, innit? :D

hS

[Pitchwife]

Well, that's the question, innit?
Duh. Found her. And since 1 to 3 are all related to Sam, 4 must be Fíriel Fairbairn.

[Huinesoron]

Duh. Found her. And since 1 to 3 are all related to Sam, 4 must be Fíriel Fairbairn.

Spot on! As best I can tell, this is the longest matrilineal chain in the Legendarium, matched only by Earwen > Galadriel > Celebrian > Arwen (whose daughters are unnamed).

The right to make the next riddle goes to Pitch, if you're up for it.

hS

[Pitchwife]

That was a nice one! Thank you, I'll try to think of something.

[Galadriel55]

Ooooh it's Elanor, right? Blossom of Dwimordene :D

*facepalm*

Nice work, Pitch! And good one, Urwen, for getting Lily Brown! That was an excellent riddle - I liked the way the structure interplays with the meaning of it, and it's a neat theme.

[Pitchwife]

And good one, Urwen, for getting Lily Brown!
Indeed! I wouldn't have lit upon the 'princess' if not for looking up Lily Brown in the family trees.

I'm a bit rusty at this game, so bear with me if this is too easy.

Strong I am, though slim and light,
Soft I am, although I bite,
I'll let you down, but still be true,
I will slip but stay with you.

[Urwen]

Anglachel/Gurthang?


Strong I am, though slim and light, - Made out of star-iron, and yet easy to carry
Soft I am, although I bite, - Can wound enemies greatly, yet soft towards its wielders; plus it broke down easily
I'll let you down, but still be true,
I will slip but stay with you. - These last two lines are obvious to anyone who read CoH

[Pitchwife]

I'm afraid not. I don't think I'd describe a sword as soft, and it eventually bit its wielders same as all others.

[Galadriel55]

It took me some pondering, but I think I have it.

Sam's Elven rope:

Strong I am, though slim and light, - well, it is - stronger and lighter than any other rope Sam has seen
Soft I am, although I bite, - bites Gollum's hands, it doesss, lrecioussss...
I'll let you down, but still be true, - it holds fast as it lets Frodo and Sam down into the gorge
I will slip but stay with you. - the knot slipped, and so the rope stayed with Sam and was not left behind.

[Pitchwife]

It took me some pondering, but I think I have it.

Sam's Elven rope:

Strong I am, though slim and light, - well, it is - stronger and lighter than any other rope Sam has seen
Soft I am, although I bite, - bites Gollum's hands, it doesss, lrecioussss...
I'll let you down, but still be true, - it holds fast as it lets Frodo and Sam down into the gorge
I will slip but stay with you. - the knot slipped, and so the rope stayed with Sam and was not left behind.
Exactly. :) Over to you!

[Galadriel55]

Loved it. Love it when it's not at all obvious, but when you strike upon the answer, you know you hit gold. And love the paradoxical double-meaning references.

These two riddles are a hard act to follow. :D



Danceless and dishless, but never more dull,
Weapon fell in the hands of a crone,
Neither of Lorien, nor Dimrill Dale,
In Mundburg or Imladris would be at home,
Something to carry, to store, or to hold,
A sword of speech, a well of words.

[Pitchwife]

I want to say a book or possibly scroll, but I can't make the rest fit yet. Crone makes me think of Ioreth, or is there another one Tolkien mentions somewhere? Possibly Lobelia, in which case the fell weapon would be an umbrella...

[Galadriel55]

I want to say a book or possibly scroll, but I can't make the rest fit yet. Crone makes me think of Ioreth, or is there another one Tolkien mentions somewhere? Possibly Lobelia, in which case the fell weapon would be an umbrella...

You are on the right general track with book, and very much on the right track with the crone line. To be clear though, the final answer is not a book.

[Pervinca Took]

Is it athelas? Seems dull, Ioreth speaks of it, it leads to a rhyme, and it presumably grows *relatively* near to Mundburg and Imladris.

(P.S. I thought Ioreth - Lobelia - Umbrella too - then thought of Dora Baggins!)

[Galadriel55]

Is it athelas? Seems dull, Ioreth speaks of it, it leads to a rhyme, and it presumably grows *relatively* near to Mundburg and Imladris.

(P.S. I thought Ioreth - Lobelia - Umbrella too - then thought of Dora Baggins!)

Alas no, athelas has nothing to do with the riddle.

An umbrella does, though.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so:

A dish and a spoon on the table danced

"Danceless and dishless" leaves a spoon, on a table. The 'dull' part could be a reference to the spoon in the song being of silver, I guess?

If line 2 is about an umbrella, could this be a very cleverly disguised "My first is in X" riddle?

hS

[Galadriel55]

"Danceless and dishless" leaves a spoon, on a table. The 'dull' part could be a reference to the spoon in the song being of silver, I guess?

Correct. No dance, no dishes, leaving silver spoons.

If line 2 is about an umbrella, could this be a very cleverly disguised "My first is in X" riddle?

Clever idea, but no. However, there is similarity with that riddle structure in that the lines are not directly related to each other and need to e regarded separately.

[Pervinca Took]

Is it the spoons that Lobelia pinches?

Or the stolen things she hides in her umbrella?

Or the case of spoons Bilbo gives her?

[Galadriel55]

Is it the spoons that Lobelia pinches?

Or the stolen things she hides in her umbrella?

Or the case of spoons Bilbo gives her?

The latter. That is the correct meaning of the first line.

The umbrella line is a separate entity, as are the rest. There is an overlying connection, but each line has a separate "mini-answer".

[Huinesoron]

The umbrella line is a separate entity, as are the rest. There is an overlying connection, but each line has a separate "mini-answer".

Hmmm... okay, so is the answer Bilbo's farewell gifts?

Danceless and dishless, but never more dull, - silver spoons, given to Lobelia S.B.
Weapon fell in the hands of a crone, - umbrella, given to Adelard Took
Neither of Lorien, nor Dimrill Dale, - mirror (but not Of Galadriel or -mere), given to Angelica Baggins
In Mundburg or Imladris would be at home, - could be the bookcase, given to Hugo Bracegirdle; both those places are noted as stores of knowledge
Something to carry, to store, or to hold, - ????
A sword of speech, a well of words. - pen and inkwell, given to Milo Burrows

The ???? ought to be the wastepaper basket for Dora Baggins. It would fit "basket", but the specific type doesn't quite line up. The other option would be the One Ring, which was given to Frodo with an attached note (well, letter), and is at various times carried, stored, and held.

hS

[Galadriel55]

That is correct, and perfectly explained! I was thiking the more general "basket" for the ???. I could not think of any basket references elsewhere in the text to use as the clue, hence more of a general description - can you think of any?

Now back over to Hui!

[Huinesoron]

That is correct, and perfectly explained! I was thiking the more general "basket" for the ???. I could not think of any basket references elsewhere in the text to use as the clue, hence more of a general description - can you think of any?


Do the mushrooms from Mrs. Maggot come in a basket? I feel like they do, but this worked well anyway! It was fun seeing bits and pieces come in, finding the link between seemingly disconnected parts, then verifying it by filling out the list. I think the mirror was my favourite part to solve.

I'll try and put something together; not sure what just yet, but I'll try!

hS

[Huinesoron]

Okay, here we go:

Red for fire, burning fierce
From forge to raging final cost.
Black for kinship's oath renewed,
A crown unsought 'neath shadow lost.
Silver shining for the gold
That lingers when all hope is gone.
Thrice we chose - but at the last
What choice shared we, all three, ere dawn?

hS

[Urwen]

Red for fire, burning fierce
From forge to raging final cost.

These sound like Feanor.

[Huinesoron]

Red for fire, burning fierce
From forge to raging final cost.

These sound like Feanor.

At least some of those lines refers to Feanor, but Feanor is not one of "we, all three".

hS

[Urwen]

Red, black and silver...

[Galadriel55]

The gold one initially reminded me of Aragorn - all that is gold does not glitter - and thus potentially Men of Dunharrow fulfilling their oath before the dawn from the Orodruin cloud, but can't really fit that to the rest of the lines.

Kinship's oath renewed sounds like Fingolfin's assurances that he will follow his elder brother, and his unexpected and unsought title of High King (but beneath shadow lost? No idea).

[Huinesoron]

Red, black and silver...

Yep. :) Though technically black is an assumption, and red could be more precisely described.

The gold one initially reminded me of Aragorn - all that is gold does not glitter - and thus potentially Men of Dunharrow fulfilling their oath before the dawn from the Orodruin cloud, but can't really fit that to the rest of the lines.

None of those, I'm afraid.

Kinship's oath renewed sounds like Fingolfin's assurances that he will follow his elder brother, and his unexpected and unsought title of High King (but beneath shadow lost? No idea).

This, however, is exactly what "kinship's oath" and "crown unsought" refer to (and how did Fingolfin's reign end? "...shadow like a thundercloud / and o'er the the gleaming king it bowed...")

hS

[Urwen]

If red is Feanor, black is Fingolfin and gold is Finarfin, then who are the 'three'? It could be three of them, but you said Feanor isn't one of the three. Hm, maybe their children...but that doesn't work either, because while Feanor and Finarfin have a surviving child, Fingolfin does not...


Unless it's that choice, but if it were that choice, there should be five, not three...Or, it could be three, because three were in the last set, and each set chose once, making in three sets with three choices...

[Huinesoron]

If red is Feanor, black is Fingolfin and gold is Finarfin, then who are the 'three'? It could be three of them, but you said Feanor isn't one of the three. Hm, maybe their children...but that doesn't work either, because while Feanor and Finarfin have a surviving child, Fingolfin does not...


Red and Black are not Feanor and Fingolfin, though "the gold" is Finarfin. It's not their kids either.

hS

[Urwen]

Red for fire, burning fierce
From forge to raging final cost.

Well, if these lines don't mean either Feanor or Maedhros, then what could they mean...?

Orodruin, perhaps...?

[Huinesoron]

Red for fire, burning fierce
From forge to raging final cost.

Well, if these lines don't mean either Feanor or Maedhros, then what could they mean...?

Orodruin, perhaps...?

"For" does not mean what you think it does in this line (or the other comparable ones).

hS

[Urwen]

What else could it mean then? Some other meaning in another language?

[Urwen]

Oh, wait, something is nagging at my brain...

And I think I know what it is, thanks to your explanation of 'silver for gold' line to mean 'silver for Finarfin', and there is only one silver in Finarfin's life, his spouse. Feanor's spouse happened to have red hair, and Fingolfin's had black hair, presumably. But then, what was the choice? I know that all three chose to stay in Aman. Would that be the 'choice' you are talking about?

[Huinesoron]

Oh, wait, something is nagging at my brain...

And I think I know what it is, thanks to your explanation of 'silver for gold' line to mean 'silver for Finarfin', and there is only one silver in Finarfin's life, his spouse. Feanor's spouse happened to have red hair, and Fingolfin's had black hair, presumably. But then, what was the choice? I know that all three chose to stay in Aman. Would that be the 'choice' you are talking about?

Correct! Red(dish)-haired* Nerdanel for - ie, marrying - Feanor, (probably) black-haired Anaire for Fingolfin, and silver-haired (per UT) Earwen for Finarfin. They each chose their spouses separately, but they all chose the same fate: to stay in Aman while their husbands and children departed.

Over to you!

hS

*Technically Nerdanel has brown hair - I think according to the Shibboleth - but I take that to be a reddish-brown or russet.

[Urwen]

I like that riddle. And now here is the one of my own


The sorrow of the Elves is they live beyond their time
Until the world forgets them, save in tales and rhyme
The sorrow of the Elves is that all they love must die
Time withers all about them, yet the Elves it passes by
The sorrow of the Elves made them seek another place
And I alone remain, on these shores, I am the last of my lost race
Now I, alone, remain to mourn and count the cost
Of wars fought and lives lost
The sorrow now is mine, and it cannot heal,
For how long will the pain remain real
And how long must I bear the stamp of sorrow’s seal?

[Huinesoron]

I keep coming back to this in the hopes of finding an answer that's not the obvious, but...

... is it just Maglor?

hS

[Urwen]

I keep coming back to this in the hopes of finding an answer that's not the obvious, but...

... is it just Maglor?

hS


Yes.

[Huinesoron]

Yes.

Phew! :D It's beautiful - very poetic - but I was terrified I was missing some sneaky trick. I think you caught me out with an Obviously Turin riddle some time ago, so I'm on my guard.

I'll see what I can come up with; hmm, actually I have an idea, just need to see if it works. :)

hS

[Urwen]

And so the trend of editing song lyrics to make Tolkien riddles continues.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, the one I wanted to do doesn't work, but I came up with this instead:

A sister to a brother
A husband to a wife
A daughter to a father
A brother to a sister
A mother to a son
A husband to the first
A chain of six who never met,
But who died first?

No Hobbits are involved in the answer, so don't say I never do anything nice for you. :D

hS

[Urwen]

Hm.

I do have a plausible guess, but the last line invalidates it...

Unless... *looks at the riddle more closely*

Why does this remind me of well... *squints*

If the last question is literal, then I'll go with Mandos' interpretation, and say that Finwe died first. :D

But Finwe didn't die first, did he? Miriel did. ;)

[Huinesoron]

Hm.

I do have a plausible guess, but the last line invalidates it...

Unless... *looks at the riddle more closely*

Why does this remind me of well... *squints*

If the last question is literal, then I'll go with Mandos' interpretation, and say that Finwe died first. :D

But Finwe didn't die first, did he? Miriel did. ;)

The last question is literal, but not that flavour of literal. Neither Finwe nor Miriel are in the riddle.

(I believe Finwe was the first slain in Aman; Miriel just died.)

hS

[Urwen]

Then I don't know what to do with the riddle. If the wife in the second line is the same as the sister in the first, I might, but otherwise, no. The clues are too vague and can refer to anyone who died, ever, and there are a lot of those. I can even say that Eilinel died first, and be correct, given the vagueness...

[Huinesoron]

If the wife in the second line is the same as the sister in the first

Nope, but there is someone in common between those two lines.

The word "chain" is doing more than you give it credit for.

hS

[Galadriel55]

So, a few disconnected thoughts, to maybe help the collective effort.

We have 6 iterations of "a [kinsman] to a [kinsman, mostly]". Then there is "a chain of 6 who never met" - begging the connection that it just links all the above statements together, as opposed to a whole separate chain of 6. The difficulty? "The husband to the first" I initially took to mean "the first line/sister/answer" - but that implies a meeting between two answers, it is very hard to be a husband without ever meeting your wife, long-distance relationships aren't popularized in Middle-earth. So perhaps "first" does not, after all, refer to the first line, but to an actual First of some sort.

So what do all the relationship statements have in common? As the only concrete clue we have is the question in the end, my inclination is that they are somehow related to deaths - perhaps actuall killing, or prophecies, or even curses. Actual killings - I have trouble coming up with that many examples of kinslaying in first degree relatives, so probably not. But it does generally put me in mind of the Hurin family and the Gondolin fiasco as potential rich sources for answers. Another instance that comes to mind is Finrod's "I must be free to fulfil my vow" as potentially one of the brother/sister pairs. Were there any good Numenorian child/parent examples? I feel like there ought to be.

[Urwen]

Or maybe the six of them were literally chained with a chain. Except no women were ever chained. Unless you mean a metaphorical chain...like Miriel being chained by Pharazon, or Eowyn being chained by expectations...

[Urwen]

Or maybe it is Hurin's family. After all, Turin and Nienor were both brother and sister and husband and wife. And if this is the case, well, I am the one who died first. :cool:

[Huinesoron]

We have 6 iterations of "a [kinsman] to a [kinsman, mostly]". Then there is "a chain of 6 who never met" - begging the connection that it just links all the above statements together, as opposed to a whole separate chain of 6. The difficulty? "The husband to the first" I initially took to mean "the first line/sister/answer" - but that implies a meeting between two answers

Which would be a problem... why? :D

'tis neither Gondolin nor the House of Hurin.

hS

[Urwen]

Which would be a problem... why? :D

hS


Because it specifically says 'the chain of six that never met'. Unless the six are linked by a common bond/chain...but with that, I keep thinking Turin is that chain...

[Galadriel55]

As a different take, I decided to draw this out as a family tree, taking the first member of each line to be the same as the second of the preceding line. We get a pair of male/female siblings marrying a pair of male/female cousins - a closed chain, if you will. Now, do I really have to go perusing through the genealogies to find this pattern?

Hmmm...

Hurin/Huor and Rian/Morwen are siblings marrying cousins, but they are not male/female pairs.

Hareth/Haldir/Galdor/Gloredhel are male/female pairs, but I think both pairs are siblibgs, not cousins.

Darn it! Fiddling with bits of genealogy, I can only make pieces fit, but not the whole thing. Urwen, you tend to be better at this stuff than I am. Can you spot the pattern?

Now your hint about Not Hobbits makes a lot of sense. :D

[Urwen]

Sorry, but I am clueless here too, as both of my guesses were incorrect.

[Urwen]

I think I have it.

A sister to a brother - Eowyn to Eomer
A husband to a wife - Eomer to Lothiriel
A daughter to a father - Lothiriel to Imrahil
A brother to a sister - Imrahil to Finduilas
A mother to a son - Finduilas to Faramir
A husband to the first - And Faramir married Eowyn

Except that everyone involved met at least once...unless you're trickily referring to he fact that most of them never met Finduilas herself, who died first.

[Huinesoron]

I think I have it.

A sister to a brother - Eowyn to Eomer
A husband to a wife - Eomer to Lothiriel
A daughter to a father - Lothiriel to Imrahil
A brother to a sister - Imrahil to Finduilas
A mother to a son - Finduilas to Faramir
A husband to the first - And Faramir married Eowyn

Except that everyone involved met at least once...unless you're trickily referring to he fact that most of them never met Finduilas herself, who died first.

Spot on! The chain (or family) never all met, because at least one (Lothiriel) was born after Finduilas died. I suspect they're the only non-Hobbit family who form that particular chain, but if you'd found another one I would have given it to you for that.

Great teamwork, and sorry it was a bit of a clumsy riddle. Over to you.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Great teamwork, and sorry it was a bit of a clumsy riddle.

What are you talking about? That was a great riddle! Finding that particular pattern of genealogy that doesn't seem to repeat anywhere else in all of the family trees is brilliant.

[Urwen]

I came to life after the great war
I cared for those who wished to be free
Until they denied the westward call
Sowing the seeds of their own fall

The King, far-seeing one, and his daughter fair
Sought to bring change, hiding their despair
But their plans were thwarted, their designs put to and end
And the rift grew, with no one left to mend

The daughter now weeps all alone
In a prison which she still calls home
And when the end came, unheard went her plea
She died with me, and we were finally free

[Galadriel55]

I think that sounds like a very lovely poetic description of Numenor - the land which was created after the War of Wrath for the Edain. Tar-Palantir and Miriel tried to prevent the Fall, but Miriel was obviously thwarted by Pharazon and later drowned with the island while on her way to pray from Meneltarma.

[Urwen]

That's it.

[Urwen]

Bump?