Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

I think I figured it out. ;)

Born in the East, - Made in Gondor
I have seen many lands. - During the journey
Silver-clad, - it was tipped with silver
I announce great beginnings. - It was first blown at the beginning of the journey

Announcer of trouble, - It was blown for the second time at Parth Galen
Herald of death. - and third time just before his death
I did as was foretold - if it be blown at need anywhere within the bounds of Gondor, as the realm was of old, its voice will not pass unheeded."
But to bring only pain. - Its remains were found by Denethor and Faramir and naturally seeing them was painful

[Galadriel55]

Hurray!

The answer is correct, Boromir's horn. Your explanation is also correct, though I had something slightly different in mind for a couple of lines. Here are the quotes to compare to:


Putting it to his lips he blew a blast, and the echoes leapt from rock to rock, and all that heard that voice in Rivendell sprang to their feet.

Slow should you be to wind that horn again, Boromir, said Elrond. 'until you stand once more on the borders of your land, and dire need is on you.'

`Maybe,' said Boromir. 'But always I have let my horn cry at setting forth, and though thereafter we may walk in the shadows, I will not go forth as a thief in the night.'

"I announce great beginnings".

`You remember well, and as one who has in truth seen him,' said Faramir. `Then maybe you can see it in your mind's eye: a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and written with ancient characters.

"Born in the East", "silver-clad".

it is said that if it be blown at need anywhere within the bounds of Gondor, as the realm was of old, its voice will not pass unheeded.

Indeed the quote that you picked out for "I did as was foretold".

‘Peace!’ said Gandalf. ‘The news of that grief should have been told first to the father.’

‘It has been guessed already,’ said Ingold; ‘for there have been strange portents here of late.

---

"But you speak of his death. You have had news of that ere we came?’

‘I have received this,’ said Denethor, and laying down his rod he lifted from his lap the thing that he had been gazing at. In each hand he held up one half of a great horn cloven through the middle: a wild-ox horn bound with silver.

‘That is the horn that Boromir always wore!’ cried Pippin.

"Herald of death".


And indeed, as you described, the horn that Boromir carried with him across Middle-earth was blown when the orcs attacked him, and was not unheeded, but instead of bringing him timely help only brought pain and worry to his people in Gondor.


Your turn.

[Urwen]

Okay. While I think of new one, could you please give other examples of things that 'speak'?

[Urwen]

This one has been on my mind for a while.

That was the day
We refused to stay
We went across the sea
To the lands where we'd be free

Our love dead
Our friendship torn
Yet we will go ahead
In the lands we were born

The rift between our people
Has to come to an end
So we could stand united against evil
Help me out, lend me a hand

[Galadriel55]

Okay. While I think of new one, could you please give other examples of things that 'speak'?

1. Gurthang is not the only literaly speaking inanimate object. There's also the troll purse in The Hobbit.

2. A metaphorically speaking object could be anything that represents a message (e.g. Red Arrow, Ring of Barahir), or makes a noise (take your pick of horns and trumpets, as well as drums, and Pippin's fool of a Took stone in Moria).

3. Speaking silently is also done through writing.
a) Objects with writing on them, most importantly books/texts but any engravings work (e.g. engraving on Balin's tomb, Book of Mazarbul)
b) Places can also fall under this category given the Moria inscription, "Speak friend and enter"
c) On the topic of places, Legolas can hear the stones of Hollin and Ents and Elves can hear the trees, without any writing necessary

4. Various non-humans who may or may not qualify as characters (the thinking fox in FOTR, the rooster who crows announcing the dawn at Minas Tirith, the various speaking birds - Eagles, Ravens, Thrush). While the Eagles are arguably characters in their own right I am not sure that definition extends to all of these animals simply because they are living creatures.

5. Dreams and visions. While some involve a specific person, others have only an image or a bodiless voice (e.g. Boromir&Faramir's initial vision, Mirror of Galadriel)


I'm sure that if I kept digging I would come up with more examples and possibly even more categories, but this is just off the top of my head. If you don't fixate on a literal meaning you can get a lot of possibilities for non-humanoid communication.


------

As for your riddle, the first half makes me think about the Noldor leaving with Feanor, while the last half reminds me of Elves and Dwarves.

How about one of the departed Noldor talking to Finarfin or Ingwe, who stayed?



Edit: you can also add bells to #2, e.g. the one trying to give the alarm that the Corsairs are coming. The list can grow and grow. :)
Edit 2: heck, the One Ring has an inscription! Yes, the list can definitely grow. Lots and lots of possibilities.

[Urwen]

Nope. You're on the right track, though. One of the lines has a literal meaning, as well as metaphorical one.

You're correct, the first two stanzas are about Feanor and Fingolfin, but the third one - which contains the speaker - is not.

[Nerwen]

Is it about Fingon rescuing Maedhros?

[Urwen]

Is it about Fingon rescuing Maedhros?


Depends on whether or not you can fit that with the clues.

[Nerwen]

Well, the first verse, as G55 already guessed, refers to the Flight of the Noldor. For the rest- well, Fingon and Maedhros had been close before the unfortunate ship-burning affair, and it was Fingon's rescue of his cousin from Thangorodrim that helped heal the rift between their Houses- but he had to remove his hand in the process.

I think that satisfies all points?

[Urwen]

Well, the first verse, as G55 already guessed, refers to the Flight of the Noldor. For the rest- well, Fingon and Maedhros had been close before the unfortunate ship-burning affair, and it was Fingon's rescue of his cousin from Thangorodrim that helped heal the rift between their Houses- but he had to remove his hand in the process.

I think that satisfies all points?


Yes, it does.

[Nerwen]

Okay, then here's the next one.

He warned you that I might betray
And quick were you to give away-
Or did you hear a voice within,
The future whisper of my kin?

[Urwen]

Maeglin?

[Nerwen]

No, not Maeglin.

It's an "every line means something" sort of riddle.

[Urwen]

So there is a traitor involved.


Known traitors: Maeglin, Bereg, Grima, Mim.

[Huinesoron]

I feel like this is another non-person riddle (which, come to think of it, almost all of the original Hobbit Riddle Game was, too - personifying the inanimate is pretty much a tradition), but unfortunately my mind keeps jumping to Star Wars: "Your thoughts betray you."

The repeated reference to voices is pushing me towards someone being betrayed by their own loud voice, but I... don't think Tolkien ever wrote that, so probably not. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Wait, could it be that Nerwen is being cheeky and the answer is, in fact, Anglachel?


He warned you that I might betray - It won't love a hand that it serves, nor will it stay with you long
And quick were you to give away- Yet I will wield it while I may
Or did you hear a voice within, - A speaking sword
The future whisper of my kin? - Anglachel and Anguirel

[Nerwen]

Urwen, you're on very much the right track- in fact perfectly correct in your interpretation of one of the lines- but the "speaker" is not Anglachel (or Anguirel). Anglachel is involved, however.

[Urwen]

Gurthang then?

[Nerwen]

Gurthang then?
If it were "Gurthang" I'd have accepted "Anglachel" as the answer.

Again, though, Anglachel/Gurthang is referenced, but is not the "speaker"- which is a little more obscure.

The whole thing is basically talking about a brief incident taking place at a specific point in time- so think about the meaning of future whisper. Or you could try working out who "he" and "you" might be.

[Urwen]

So Anglachel is referenced?

How about Nan Elmoth then? It betrayed Aredhel, and it's where Anglachel was made.

[Urwen]

Am at least right in thinking that 'he' is Thingol and 'you' is Beleg?

[Nerwen]

So Anglachel is referenced?

How about Nan Elmoth then? It betrayed Aredhel, and it's where Anglachel was made.
Not Nan Elmoth.

You're looking for an instance of [somebody] warning [somebody else] that "I" [not actually a person] can't be trusted. (You quoted similar advice about Anglachel itself).

Edit: missed your last post.

Am at least right in thinking that 'he' is Thingol and 'you' is Beleg?
No... and that's the key to it. There is a passage where somebody is warned about "me" in much the same terms.

[Urwen]

So Anglachel is involved, yet it isn't. It's referenced, but not really.

It's a first age thing, right?

[Nerwen]

So Anglachel is involved, yet it isn't. It's referenced, but not really.

It's a first age thing, right?
Yes. But Anglachel is involved and is really referenced. That is, part of the riddle is talking about it directly- but it isn't the answer.:smokin:

[Urwen]

So the warning happens around the same time?

[Urwen]

The Bridge over Narog?

'He' is Ulmo/Cirdan/Gelmir/Arminas, and 'you' is Orodreth.

[Urwen]

If it's not it, then I can't find such a passage.

[Nerwen]

1. No, this warning happens earlier. Years earlier, in fact.
2. No, not the bridge.
3. Yes, you can! It's... what shall I say?- not one of the "big" scenes (and doesn't appear in the shorter version of the story), but is significant in its own way.

Maybe try and work out exactly how Anglachel is being referenced, and what "kin" means?

[Urwen]

Maybe Anglachel is the 'future kin' of the 'speaker'?

[Urwen]

1. No, this warning happens earlier. Years earlier, in fact.
2. No, not the bridge.
3. Yes, you can! It's... what shall I say?- not one of the "big" scenes (and doesn't appear in the shorter version of the story), but is significant in its own way.

Maybe try and work out exactly how Anglachel is being referenced, and what "kin" means?


The passage doesn't appear in the Silmarillion?

[Urwen]

Still can't find any other object that fits. Unless you mean galvorn?

[Nerwen]

1. Yes, exactly.
2. No, but I know you're familiar with the source.
3. No, not galvorn.

[Urwen]

Or maybe the Gaurwaith? They are not technically a person, and Beleg warned Turin that they will fail him.

[Nerwen]

Or maybe the Gaurwaith? They are not technically a person, and Beleg warned Turin that they will fail him.
No, you were closer before: it's an object.

[Urwen]

The only first age sources are Silm, COH, FoG and part of UT. You said it's not Silm and FoG happened long after Anglachel came into the picture. This leaves CoH and part of UT, and neither contains a warning about betrayal.

[Nerwen]

The only first age sources are Silm, COH, FoG and part of UT. You said it's not Silm and FoG happened long after Anglachel came into the picture. This leaves CoH and part of UT, and neither contains a warning about betrayal.
The word "betrayal" isn't used. Nor is the "speaker" implied to be capable of deliberate betrayal, or indeed to be sentient at all- that is not the aspect in which it is "kin" to Anglachel.

[Urwen]

Well, this one isn't named, but maybe the knife given to Turin by Hurin.

He warned you that I might betray - "But be careful! This blade is sharp, and the steel will serve only the one who knows how to wield it. It will cut your hand just like anything else."
And quick were you to give away- he gave it away almost immediately
Or did you hear a voice within,
The future whisper of my kin? - Anglachel, his second sword

Either that or Angrist.

[Nerwen]

Well, this one isn't named, but maybe the knife given to Turin by Hurin. Either that or Angrist.
You've got it! The answer is indeed Túrin's Birthday Present of Ominous Foreshadowing.

On the morning of Túrin's birthday Húrin gave his son a gift, an Elf-wrought knife; and the hilt and the sheath were silver and black, and he said: "Heir of the House of Hador, here is a gift for the day. But have a care! It is a bitter blade, and steel serves only those that can wield it. It will cut your hand as willingly as ought else."

Well done, and over to you!

Edit: Ah, I see you inserted the full explanation into your post while I was typing this. So yes, that's what I meant.

[Galadriel55]

Nice one, Urwen!

[Urwen]

Speaking of non-named things.....

I may be small
But I caused your fall
Something of yours I broke
With one precise stroke

(No hints for this one, even if you ask, because you already have all the hints you need. ;) )

[Huinesoron]

Speaking of non-named things.....

I may be small
But I caused your fall
Something of yours I broke
With one precise stroke

(No hints for this one, even if you ask, because you already have all the hints you need. ;) )

... let it be the wrench. Please.

hS

[Urwen]

... let it be the wrench. Please.

hS

It's indeed the famous Wrench, from the Tale of Tuor, Maeglin and the Wrench. For the Wrench is dark and full of terrors.

(Sorry not sorry. I couldn't resist using it as the riddle answer. :cool:)

[Huinesoron]

It's indeed the famous Wrench, from the Tale of Tuor, Maeglin and the Wrench. For the Wrench is dark and full of terrors.

(Sorry not sorry. I couldn't resist using it as the riddle answer. :cool:)

Never be sorry. It's an amazing answer, and an excellent riddle for it.

("For the wrench had been wrought by" [Rolls master-smith dice] "Eol himself, in the years of darkness ere the sun rose; and it was borne by Maeglin to the city, alone of all the tools he possessed. And until that very day it had lain in the house of that Gnome; and save for the strange mischance that let it tumble from the door even as Tuor was passing, it might have abode there still, until the flames that e'en now consumed Gondolin claimed it.")

Riddle, riddle... how about this:

In memory of my father,
And of his mother's line,
In token of my uncle's loss,
I hold you ever mine.

Though demons foul hold kin of yours,
So too shall kin of mine,
Like Sons of Earth to their own sons,
I pass you down the line.

There is a specific, named answer to this riddle, though if you can get the right concept it might help you find that answer.

hS

[Urwen]

Why does your riddle make me think of your theory that the Balrog of Moria has Anguirel.....?

[Huinesoron]

Why does your riddle make me think of your theory that the Balrog of Moria has Anguirel.....?

Hah! Probably because the 'demon' line is indeed referring to a balrog, though not that balrog.

hS

[Urwen]

Ring of Barahir?

[Huinesoron]

Ring of Barahir?

No.

Out of interest, how did you link that answer to '[A balrog] holds kin of yours'? Ringbearing balrogs is a terrifying notion I don't think Tolkien even considered.

hS

[Urwen]

No.

Out of interest, how did you link that answer to '[A balrog] holds kin of yours'? Ringbearing balrogs is a terrifying notion I don't think Tolkien even considered.

hS


Well, first I thought of Gurthang, but it broke. And I admit my thoughts wandered down the strange paths from there.... :eek:

[Urwen]

Are the balrogs in question named too?

[Huinesoron]

Are the balrogs in question named too?

I mean, that's kind of a... how many named balrogs are there?

Let's just say yes, in at least one case.

hS

[Urwen]

Dramborleg? Gothmog, the only other named Balrog, wielded a 'black axe', which could be seen as Dramborleg's 'kin'. Dramborleg itself got passed down to the Kings of Numenor, who presumably passed in down their line.

[Huinesoron]

Dramborleg? Gothrmog, the only other named Balrog, wielded a 'black axe', which could be seen as Dramborleg's 'kin'. Dramborleg itself got passed down to the Kings of Numenor, who presumably passed in down their line.

Dramborleg it is. The speaker is Tuor; apparently Dramborleg was Huor's axe first, and Hurin famously wielded one at the Nirnaeth; the Haladin were also fond of them, and they were Tuor's grandmother's kin.

Back to you.

hS

[Nerwen]

Well, I was just about to post that very guess! So if two such brilliant folk as ourselves independently came to the same conclusion it has to be right... right?:Merisu:

Edit: saw confirmation.

[Urwen]

Give me some time to make a new one. I'll be with you shortly.

[Urwen]

I think that this version is phrased better

You and your companions are alarmed
Your soul is filled with fear
Only you shall be harmed
By me, ere I disappear

[Nerwen]

The Witch-king, to Frodo (on Weathertop)?

[Urwen]

The Witch-king, to Frodo (on Weathertop)?

Not a person.

[Urwen]

I don't bite.

[Nerwen]

So you say...

(Thinking aloud) Not a person. A weapon, perhaps? But why does it "disappear"?

[Nerwen]

Now, let's see... the talk of "harming" and "filling souls with fear" suggests something bad... but perhaps Urwen is being sneaky.

So perhaps it's the sword Glamdring, addressing the Great Goblin?

You and your companions are alarmed
Your soul is filled with fear -all the goblins in the cavern were freaking out
Only you shall be harmed
By me, ere I disappear. -Gandalf bisected the Great Goblin, before sheathing his sword.

[Urwen]

Now, let's see... the talk of "harming" and "filling souls with fear" suggests something bad... but perhaps Urwen is being sneaky.

So perhaps it's the sword Glamdring, addressing the Great Goblin?

You and your companions are alarmed
Your soul is filled with fear -all the goblins in the cavern were freaking out
Only you shall be harmed
By me, ere I disappear. -Gandalf bisected the Great Goblin, before sheathing his sword.

No. The weapon in question actually disappears. As in, the majority of it ceases to exist. It is mentioned in one of Third age books.

[Nerwen]

Ah, then I think we're back to Weathertop, and it's the Morgul-blade that wounds Frodo?

[Urwen]

Ah, then I think we're back to Weathertop, and it's the Morgul-blade that wounds Frodo?

That's the one. :D

[Nerwen]

Dear me, what a lot of weapon-themed riddles we've had lately!:eek:

Anyway-

From the first descended
To one of the first I cleave.
That which my name resembles
My heirs will never need.

[Urwen]

Orcrist aka Biter aka Goblin Cleaver?

[Nerwen]

Orcrist aka Biter aka Goblin Cleaver?
After I'd just guessed Glamdring? No.

"Cleave" is a funny word, almost a riddle in itself. "What word means its own opposite"?;)

[Urwen]

Anguirel?

[Nerwen]

No.

[Urwen]

Dragon-helm of Dor-Lomin?

From the first descended
To one of the first I cleave. - Maedhros, then Fingon, and then the house of Hador
That which my name resembles
My heirs will never need. - Glaurung the dragon

[Nerwen]

No. I get the reasoning, but if it was that I wouldn't have used "one of the first" to designate anyone from the second House of the Edain... and then, how does the Dragon-helm have "heirs"?

[Urwen]

From the first descended - From Barahir, the first bearer
To one of the first I cleave. - to Beren, a member of the first house, and the first man to marry an Elf
That which my name resembles - One Ring
My heirs will never need. - Aragorn

[Nerwen]

That's pretty good. Not the answer, though.:p

[Nerwen]

I should warn you that this one is less than serious and that the solution involves some rather silly word-play. The subject, meanwhile, isn't as well known as any of your suggestions, but has been brought up recently.

[Urwen]

Imrazor? He pretty much cleaved to one of the first-born (Mithrellas), he descended from Beren, the first mortal to marry an Elf, and his name resembles that of Er-Murazor, a non-canon name of Witch-King.

[Nerwen]

Imrazor? He pretty much cleaved to one of the first-born (Mithrellas) and his name resembles that of Er-Murazor, a non-canon name of Witch-King.
Imrazor is indeed the answer, but you've only got part of the explanation.

So-

From the first descended
To one of the first I cleave. Family were "first settlers", and he married an Elf. Okay.

But-

That which my name resembles
My heirs will never need. -As I said, wordplay is involved. And it may be silly, but it's perfectly canonical.

What don't Imrazor's heirs need?

Edit: I'm not sure if Imrazor could trace descent from Beren or not, though I guess it's not unlikely, but what I was thinking of was that his family had settled in Middle-earth before the Downfall.

[Urwen]

A razor?

Because Im-Razor

[Nerwen]

A razor?

Because Im-Razor

That's it!:smokin: Like I said, silly wordplay. Over to you.

[Urwen]

In Blessed Lands I came to be
Yet I left them behind
Abandoned we were
In our hour of need

Through impossible odds
We finally arrived on these shores
Where darkness dwelt
We won't forget

A binding oath
A promise to be kept
Those things spurred me on
To the place where darkness slept

They picked us off as time passed
They wanted to save me for last
But I couldn't let him die
So now I say goodbye

[Nerwen]

It... it can't be Fingon again... can it?:eek:

[Urwen]

It... it can't be Fingon again... can it?:eek:


Nope, not Fingon, but still a Fin.

[Nerwen]

Actually, I was just kidding- but now it occurs to me that the answer might fact be Fingon's cousin Finrod.

Edit: and that was before you edited in "still a Fin", but thanks anyway.

[Urwen]

Actually, I was just kidding- but now it occurs to me that the answer might fact be Fingon's cousin Finrod.

Edit: and that was before you edited in "still a Fin", but thanks anyway.


Yes, it's Finrod, the goodiest goody-two-shoes who ever did good in Beleriand

(and the greatest wingman of the greatest couple too, but don't tell him I've said that)

[Nerwen]

Explanation-

In Blessed Lands I came to be
Yet I left them behind
Abandoned we were
In our hour of need

Through impossible odds
We finally arrived on these shores
Where darkness dwelt
We won't forget -Flight of the Noldor, burning of the ships, passage over the Helcaraxë.

A binding oath
A promise to be kept -The oath he swore to Barahir.
Those things spurred me on
To the place where darkness slept -Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

They picked us off as time passed -wolves ate the prisoners one by one (just like in a certain game).
They wanted to save me for last
But I couldn't let him die
So now I say goodbye -Finrod, left for last, killed the wolf that came for Beren but was mortally wounded.

Edit: okay, I won't, then.

[Urwen]

By the power vested in me by the Wrench, I yield the turn to thee.

[Nerwen]

All hail the mighty Wrench!

Poison's son
In sunless place
Under his mother
Poison faced.

[Urwen]

Bilbo is literally poison's son, so he is my first guess.

[Nerwen]

Bilbo is literally poison's son, so he is my first guess.
Very good! Bilbo, son of Belladonna, is the answer. Can you explain the rest of it?

[Urwen]

Well, sunless place probably refers to Mirkwood/Moria, but as for the rest of it, nothing comes to mind.....

[Nerwen]

There's more than one play on the name "Belladonna".

[Urwen]

The only other meanings I could find are 'deadly nightshade' and 'beautiful lady'. Now, nightshade could refer to 'sunless place'

[Nerwen]

Well, then... the place in question has more than one name... and it can't be Moria, since he was never there... so...?

[Urwen]

Did nightshade grow on the Misty Mountains?

[Urwen]

Ah-Hah. One of the names of Mirkwood is 'Forest Under Deadly Nightshade'. :D

[Nerwen]

And what kind of poisonous threat did Bilbo encounter in Mirkwood, aka Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade?

[Urwen]

Spiders.

[Nerwen]

Yep! Attercops galore!

Your turn.:)

[Galadriel55]

Not la familia again? Except if so they are out of order for both birth and death.

The first one - Lalaith, laughter, the happy sibling who died in childhood.

The second one - Turin, carrying the curse, who will also defeat Morgoth.

The third one - Nienor, who threw herself into Teiglin.

[Urwen]

You replied too early.....I was in the process of scrapping that riddle. :o

ETA: Actually, whatever. You answered the most important part of both the scrapped version and the new version I was about to make, so you can go.

The new version, for posterity's sake:

I am the Wrestler
A prelude to defeat
To weaken the enemy
So he could be beat

I am the Champion
Of light
I will arise again
Against the darkness I will fight

I'm the Breaker
And I shall pay the cost
In order to restore
That which was lost

(If you want to solve this one as a bonus challenge, you're more than welcome to try, but the turn is yours regardless.)

[Galadriel55]

You replied too early.....I was in the process of scrapping that riddle. :o

ETA: Actually, whatever. You answered the most important part of both the scrapped version and the new version I was about to make, so you can go.

Well, let's solve the new one anyway. I feel like the middle paragraph (Champion) still refers to Turin, but the other ones are less obvious.

[Urwen]

Yes, the middle one is still Turin.

[Galadriel55]

The Wrestler kinda makes me think of Finrod, but the rest of the verse doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Urwen]

Maybe this hint will help: All three individuals referenced would play an important role during the Final Battle and the aftermath of it.

[Galadriel55]

In that case the Wrestler must be Tulkas, who also fights Morgoth before Turin kills him.

The Breaker... hmm. The breaking of the Silmarils comes to mind, and reading up on it Yavanna does the act, but it's Feanor who pays the cost, so one of those two perhaps.

[Urwen]

In that case the Wrestler must be Tulkas, who also fights Morgoth before Turin kills him.

The Breaker... hmm. The breaking of the Silmarils comes to mind, and reading up on it Yavanna does the act, but it's Feanor who pays the cost, so one of those two perhaps.

Yes, Tulkas, Turin and Feanor.

[Galadriel55]

Yes, Tulkas, Turin and Feanor.

Cheers!

Try this one:


Fool are you to make your shot:
You revealed yourself to foes.
Fool am I to make my shot:
I revealed the secret bridge.
My shot you took from where it fell.
You'll get no thanks though you did well.
So which of us the bigger fool?

[Urwen]

How about this?


Fool are you to make your shot:
You revealed yourself to foes. - Turin put on the Dragon Helm, thus revealing himself to Morgoth
Fool am I to make my shot:
I revealed the secret bridge. - Mablung, who revealed the Bridge of Esgalduin to Morwen and Nienor, and by doing so, allowed their doom to find them both (plus Turin)
My shot you took from where it fell. - and Turin, who is responsible for its destruction,
You'll get no thanks though you did well. - and who, in spite of killing Glaurung, can't receive any real thanks for obvious reasons
So which of us the bigger fool?

[Galadriel55]

That's a pretty thorough explanation, but unfortunately not the right one.

[Urwen]

No clarifications/hints this time around?

[Galadriel55]

No clarifications/hints this time around?

After your first guess? There will be, but try at least once more. If you don't have other ideas, I'm happy to give some hints.

[Urwen]

Well, there are only so many bridges, so unless a bridge isn't really a bridge, I am bound to get it right eventually.

[Urwen]

I think most of the lines still refer to Turin, but the 'bridge' one refers to Androg......

[Urwen]

Gandalf called Pippin a fool when he revealed the Fellowship in Moria, and then he revealed the existence and the location of the Moria's bridge to them.

[Galadriel55]

I think most of the lines still refer to Turin, but the 'bridge' one refers to Androg......

Turin is not either of the characters.

Gandalf called Pippin a fool when he revealed the Fellowship in Moria, and then he revealed the existence and the location of the Moria's bridge to them.

You're thinking along the right lines here.

[Urwen]

Even with that, I can solve only half the riddle, and the shot part still mystifies me even after rereading the scene.

[Galadriel55]

Even with that, I can solve only half the riddle, and the shot part still mystifies me even after rereading the scene.

There are two people, with two shots, and two revelations. Your earlier post alluded to one of the parts described by the riddle; the rest comes from a different scene.

Edit: to help guide you, your post #2612 was half right and half wrong. Part of it is very much on track but part of it is irrelevant.

[Urwen]

If it's not Pippin, then it must be Frodo, who revealed himself by putting on the Ring.

[Galadriel55]

If it's not Pippin, then it must be Frodo, who revealed himself by putting on the Ring.

It's not Frodo.

Also, read my responses carefully, as I think you might be misinterpreting them and veering off track again.

[Urwen]

Wait, when you said I got one of the characters right, you meant Pippin rather than Gandalf, in which case, the bridge isn't one in Moria?

[Urwen]

Maybe Aragorn, who lead them across the bridge, and Pippin, who revealed them to the enemy.....

[Galadriel55]

You have correctly identified Pippin in Moria as one of the characters/events, though you haven't quite tied in all the bits together (btw, do you know which one, "I" or "you"? This may help you find the second one).

Remember that the second person is also a fool of sorts, and I don't think Aragorn could be called that, definitely not in the Bridge of Khazad-dum passages you refer to.

[Urwen]

I think Pippin is 'I', because there is no mention of him revealing a bridge.

Unless you mean that his actions prompted Gandalf to hurry and reach the bridge, in which case, he would be 'you'.

Which further proves my theory that it could be Denethor, who tried to burn his own son alive.....

[Galadriel55]

I think Pippin is 'I', because there is no mention of him revealing a bridge.

Umm... read the riddle carefully. You're confusing who does what. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but "I" is the one linked with revealing a bridge.

The Elven-Brooch comes to mind, but that still points to Aragorn, for he picked it up.

Ditto. You're doing the right thing, thinking of incidences where "you" and "I" could interact in a "taking the shot from where it fell". But first figure out which end of the interaction Pippin is on, which goes back to the above part.

Or it could be Denethor, who tried to burn his own son alive.....

I am a little confused by where this came from, but it's not the answer.

[Galadriel55]

I think Pippin is 'I', because there is no mention of him revealing a bridge.

Unless you mean that his actions prompted Gandalf to hurry and reach the bridge, in which case, he would be 'you'.

Which further proves my theory that it could be Denethor, who tried to burn his own son alive.....

Just saw this edited version. Still confused about why you think Denethor. Still urge you to read the riddle carefully and map out what you know about "you" and "I", cause you seem to be jumping between them within the first statement.

Let's see if you can trace the second person back from what you already know. It might help you to get the exact details that are relevant to Pippin's part in the story (e.g. what is his shot? What was revealed?); once you have that straight it will be easier to place him into a I/you role, and thus make it easier to solve the remaining one.

[Galadriel55]

I edited my post to include this:

Better?

See above, I replied to your edit.

Still not hitting the answer, and I'm not sure how you conclude Denethor from that so I can't comment on your thought process there.

[Urwen]

Well, if Pippin is I, then he revealed the bridge. But who did he meet that revealed themselves to the enemy.

Then again, if I am right......

Well, one of your hints said that it wasn't Aragorn during the Moria scene. You never said it isn't Aragorn, period. Therefore, it could be that 'you' is Aragorn, who revealed himself to Sauron.

If Pippin is 'you', then he revealed the Fellowship's location to the enemy, but that still leaves the problem of who revealed the bridge.....

[Galadriel55]

Well, if Pippin is I, then he revealed the bridge. But who did he meet that revealed themselves to the enemy.

Then again, if I am right......

Well, one of your hints said that it wasn't Aragorn during the Moria scene. You never said it isn't Aragorn, period. Therefore, it could be that 'you' is Aragorn, who revealed himself to Sauron.

If Pippin is 'you', then he revealed the Fellowship's location to the enemy, but that still leaves the problem of who revealed the bridge.....

You're thinking the right way, just not the right events. Some points to help your thinking:
1. It's not Aragorn, period. (but that's a great example that I haven't thought of! Kudos for coming up with that!)
2. As far as I am concerned, Pippin did not reveal the bridge of Moria. So don't use that point to determine his role and connection.
3. You did allude to something else related to Pippin that will be more useful to you.

[Urwen]

So then, the 'I' character is connected to the Elven brooch. And the only characters connected to it are Galadriel, Merry, and the Three Hunters.

You also said that the other characters is considered a 'fool' of sorts, and Merry revealed the existence of Brandywine bridge.

[Galadriel55]

So then, the 'I' character is connected to the Elven brooch. And the only characters connected to it are Galadriel, Merry, and the Three Hunters.

That's not the post I was thinking of. Read back to what you posted before. You did not name the event outright but you alluded to it.

You also said that the other characters is considered a 'fool' of sorts, and Merry revealed the existence of Brandywine bridge.

Well, Merry did some foolish things, but his foolishness is not connected to the Brandywine Bridge.

I was holding off on saying this, thinking that you'd figure it out, but I think you deserve this for your efforts. Don't fixate on the bridge. You won't be able to name it even if you search the maps for all the bridges. It will become clear when you match the right people and events, but you will not be able to find it by elimination. So, I guess my suggestion is, don't work forward from the bridge; look through your Pippin posts and work forward from him, and the bridge detail will fall in place last.

[Urwen]

Well, the things I alluded to were that he revealed the Fellowship, that he dropped the Elven Brooch and that he was called a fool by Gandalf.

[Galadriel55]

Well, the things I alluded to were that he revealed the Fellowship, that he dropped the Elven Brooch and that he was called a fool by Gandalf.

Yes. Think about that. :smokin:

Maybe consider the details around these events. Like, you're still missing the "shot" element. Which of these events can satisfy that line?

[Urwen]

Well, the closest I could think of is when he threw the rock into the well.


Wait, something just occurred to me. Let's see whether I am on the right track here and not merely confusing the events in the book with those in the movie.

[Galadriel55]

Well, the closest I could think of is when he threw the rock into the well.


Wait, something just occurred to me. Let's see whether I am on the right track here and not merely confusing the events in the book with those in the movie.

Ok, I'll wait with replying to that to see what was the lightbulb that went off just now. :)

(Or can answer regarding your first point now if you wish :))

[Urwen]

Just as I thought. The stone throws. In which case, 'I' would be Boromir.

[Galadriel55]

Just as I thought. The stone throws. In which case, 'I' would be Boromir.

Ohhh, another good example, but sadly not the one in the riddle. A very well-fitting one with the foolish shot (except for the last bit where the interaction occurs).

I can, however, confirm you are correct with Pippin and the incident at the well.

So, can you now place Pippin as either "you" or "I" definitively, given the added info you now have? Then carefully read the interaction between the characters - how do they intersect. And you will find the other one.

[Urwen]

Pippin is 'you'.

[Galadriel55]

Pippin is 'you'.

Ok.

Now, how can you connect Pippin to these lines?
My shot you took from where it fell.
You'll get no thanks though you did well.

[Urwen]

There wer sounds that were heard from down below, after the rock fell into the water. My guess is that those sounds were made by 'I' character.

[Urwen]

Therefore, 'I' is Gollum.

[Galadriel55]

Not Gollum.

As I said before, there are two different shots made by two different people in different events. There is a factor that ties them together, and it's in the lines I pointed out to you.

[Urwen]

That was the last lead I had. :(

ETA: Wait. I was mistaken. Pippin is you, meaning nobody took his shot, he took someone else.

In which case, 'I' is Grima, who literally threw the Palantir that Pippin took.

[Urwen]

I'm going to bed too. G'nite.

[Galadriel55]

ETA: Wait. I was mistaken. Pippin is you, meaning nobody took his shot, he took someone else.

In which case, 'I' is Grima, who literally threw the Palantir that Pippin took.

Bravo! Untangling the "I" and "you" roles helps a lot with this. And once you did that, you hit on the right answer!

"You" is Pippin, who reveals the location of the Fellowship by throwing the stone into the well.
"I" is Grima, who reveals Saruman's connection with Sauron by throwing out the palantir.
Pippin picks up the palantir but doesn't get the appreciation he thinks he deserves (the entitled teenager :p)

So the final question: who is the bigger fool?




(Kidding. You've answered all the actual parts of the riddle. I think both characters were quite foolish in their own ways, but Pippin was the luckier fool of the two as his blunders often turned to something good half by accident.)

[Urwen]

Twins are we
Imbued with his hate
Our lives are very different
Yet we shared the same fate

One remained in the fires
Where the turncoat was slain
The other inside the earth
Till the time comes for it to rise again

[Nerwen]

Anguirel and Anglachel?

[Nerwen]

Explanation:

Twins are we
Imbued with his hate -both made by Eöl out of meteoric iron and said to contain his "dark heart".
Our lives are very different
Yet we shared the same fate -perhaps in the sense of being ultimately abandoned? Or having all their wielders die?

One remained in the fires
Where the turncoat was slain -Anguirel, left in the ruins of Gondolin.
The other inside the earth
Till the time comes for it to rise again -Anglachel aka Gurthang, buried with Túrin.

[Urwen]

A good explanation, and the correct one.

[Nerwen]

I won't have time to come up with another one for a day or so. If you have one ready, you can go instead.

[Urwen]

Does that apply for 6 degrees thread too?

[Urwen]

Anyway, this one is to draw your attention to yet another parallel I found interesting.

You, who suffered loss
I, descended from your brother
What were our thoughts
When everything we loved was torn asunder?

You, who cried out in despair
Thus aiding the Enemy as he had planned
He had once declared
That you and your kin shall be damned

Me, who had to watch
As my home fell to ruin
Yet he wasn't someone I could dispatch
In silence, I had to endure

You and I, we knew suffering, we knew pain
Alone and in silence, when we lost it all
Here at the end, everything we did was in vain
The Sea had taken us, with its waves tall

[Urwen]

Oh, and I want you to try and solve this one, Huinesoron, for ~reasons

[Huinesoron]

Oh, and I want you to try and solve this one, Huinesoron, for ~reasons

Well! 'You and your kin shall be damned' immediately points to the House of Hurin, of whom one member wound up in the sea - Hurin himself (as you reminded me). He also cried out in despair at the Hidden Way into Gondolin, thus revealing the city.

'Descended from your brother' means we're looking at the Huor-Tuor line, which means the Halfelven and the Numenorean-Dunedain nobility. I'm... trying very hard to find someone other than Tar-Miriel who fits, but I can't. :) She's simply got too many connections - with Pharazon as 'someone I could[n't] dispatch', and the Fall of Numenor as a whole. So my answer is Tar-Miriel speaking to Hurin Thalion. And the 'reasons' are because we literally just had that conversation (and possibly you were trying to trick me and make me think you meant Nienor, not Hurin).

hS

[Urwen]

Well! 'You and your kin shall be damned' immediately points to the House of Hurin, of whom one member wound up in the sea - Hurin himself (as you reminded me). He also cried out in despair at the Hidden Way into Gondolin, thus revealing the city.

'Descended from your brother' means we're looking at the Huor-Tuor line, which means the Halfelven and the Numenorean-Dunedain nobility. I'm... trying very hard to find someone other than Tar-Miriel who fits, but I can't. :) She's simply got too many connections - with Pharazon as 'someone I could[n't] dispatch', and the Fall of Numenor as a whole. So my answer is Tar-Miriel speaking to Hurin Thalion. And the 'reasons' are because we literally just had that conversation (and possibly you were trying to trick me and make me think you meant Nienor, not Hurin).

hS

That's the answer, and that's the reason. Well, that and the fact that you hold her in high regard, as do I.

Are you up for continuing the game?

[Huinesoron]

Long will you think ere the elderly's lesson
Comes to your mind to continue the session
Puzzle me out, do as you are bid
You may find the answer, but treasure stays hid.

hS

[Urwen]

The riddle game itself? With the last line referring to egg.

[Huinesoron]

The riddle game itself? With the last line referring to egg.

Only the last line? :D

Can you tell me who 'the elderly' refers to, what the lesson is, and what the treasure is?

hS

[Urwen]

Only the last line? :D

Can you tell me who 'the elderly' refers to, what the lesson is, and what the treasure is?

hS

The treasure is the inside of the egg, of course. The elderly are Gollum and Bilbo themselves. The lesson is learning the answers as they come.

[Nerwen]

Does that apply for 6 degrees thread too?
Yes.

[Huinesoron]

The treasure is the inside of the egg, of course. The elderly are Gollum and Bilbo themselves. The lesson is learning the answers as they come.

No, no, and no, I'm afraid. You might want to think about whether your answer ("The riddle game itself") is specific enough.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, you confirmed that it is, only that the details are wrong. ;)

[Huinesoron]

Well, you confirmed that it is, only that the details are wrong. ;)

Nooooo I didn't. I said something slightly different that points at what the true answer to my riddle is.

hS

[Urwen]

The Red Book of Westmarch, known to us fans as 'The Hobbit' then?

[Huinesoron]

The Red Book of Westmarch, known to us fans as 'The Hobbit' then?

When I said "think about whether it's specific enough", I meant you needed to be more specific, not less. :) As in, you should stick with your answer, but focus it a bit more.

hS

[Urwen]

When I said "think about whether it's specific enough", I meant you needed to be more specific, not less. :) As in, you should stick with your answer, but focus it a bit more.

hS

Hence why I said you said it was more or less correct, but you denied it.....

Anyway

Long will you think ere the elderly's lesson
Comes to your mind to continue the session
Puzzle me out, do as you are bid
You may find the answer, but treasure stays hid.

The 'what have I got in my pocket' riddle? The answer is found after a long time by Gollum, but the treasure (The One Ring) remains hidden from him.

[Huinesoron]

Hence why I said you said it was more or less correct, but you denied it.....

Anyway

Long will you think ere the elderly's lesson
Comes to your mind to continue the session
Puzzle me out, do as you are bid
You may find the answer, but treasure stays hid.

The 'what have I got in my pocket' riddle? The answer is found after a long time by Gollum, but the treasure (The One Ring) remains hidden from him.

You're right about 'long will you think' and the treasure which stays hid, but not about which riddle I'm thinking of. (For one thing, the game - 'the session' - was over before Gollum figured out what was in his pocket.)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, in that case.....


Long will you think - But just as Bilbo was beginning to hope that the wretch would not be able to answer
ere the elderly's lesson
Comes to your mind to continue the session - Gollum brought up memories of ages and ages and ages before, when he lived with his grandmother in a hole in a bank by a river
Puzzle me out, do as you are bid
You may find the answer, but treasure stays hid. - "Sss, sss, my preciouss," he said. "Sun on the daisies it means, it does."

[Nerwen]

Is it specifically the part of the Riddle Game where Gollum has to find the answer to the egg riddle?

Long will you think ere the elderly's lesson
Comes to your mind to continue the session -Gollum was stymied by the seemingly easy riddle, until he recalled a long-ago memory of (literally) teaching his grandmother to suck eggs.
Puzzle me out, do as you are bid
You may find the answer, but treasure stays hid. -He answered that riddle correctly, but could not find the treasure *he* cared about- the Ring.

Edit: x'd with the last few posts- may have been answered already.

[Huinesoron]

Is it specifically the part of the Riddle Game where Gollum has to find the answer to the egg riddle?

Long will you think ere the elderly's lesson
Comes to your mind to continue the session -Gollum was stymied by the seemingly easy riddle, until he recalled a long-ago memory of (literally) teaching his grandmother to suck eggs.
Puzzle me out, do as you are bid
You may find the answer, but treasure stays hid. -He answered that riddle correctly, but could not find the treasure *he* cared about- the Ring.

Edit: x'd with the last few posts- may have been answered already.

That's the one. The 'teach grandma to suck eggs' joke flew right by my for years and years, so I figure it was only fair to work it into a riddle.

hS

[Urwen]

I will continue this, for now.

Large were we
Born in the land of seafarers
We were taken away
Only to be killed by mighty flames

If Nerwen decides to make his/her own riddle, it will replace mine, but for now, enjoy. :)

[Nerwen]

I will continue this, for now.

Large were we
Born in the land of seafarers
We were taken away
Only to be killed by mighty flames

If Nerwen decides to make his/her own riddle, it will replace mine, but for now, enjoy. :)

"His/her"? Somebody's taking my screenname awfully literally!:p

And yes, you may proceed.

~Man-maiden.

[Urwen]

"His/her"? Somebody's taking my screenname awfully literally!:p

And yes, you may proceed.

~Man-maiden.

Nope, it's just that I am not sure what your pronoun is and I want to be on the safe side. :p

[Nerwen]

Is it the ships of the Teleri?

[Urwen]

Is it the ships of the Teleri?

Yes, and I am out of riddles for now. :p

[Urwen]

G55, Huinesoron, got any?

[Galadriel55]

G55, Huinesoron, got any?

None ready at the moment. Are we doing a free-for-all until Nerwen reclaims her turn?

[Urwen]

None ready at the moment. Are we doing a free-for-all until Nerwen reclaims her turn?

That's what she said.

[Urwen]

How about now?

[Nerwen]

Forth I went to meet despair-
They said they'd wait 'til back I came.
Yet here's another in my place-
We're not the same,
But no-one cares.

[Urwen]

Hurin, whose lands were usurped by Easterlings?

[Nerwen]

Nope.

[Urwen]

So it's someone who said they'd wait until someone else returns, but did not?

[Urwen]

The Tale of Aldarion and Erendis comes to mind there......

[Nerwen]

So it's someone who said they'd wait until someone else returns, but did not?
Yes, but there's more to it. (And it's not "someone"- note use of "they").

And no, not Erendis.

[Urwen]

Fingolfin, who rushed to his duel with Morgoth and his death?

But who did 'they' replace him with?

Or Amlach, who was replaced by his Melkorian doppelganger?

[Nerwen]

Neither of those.

Re-posting as we're on a new page:

Forth I went to meet despair-
They said they'd wait 'til back I came.
Yet here's another in my place-
We're not the same,
But no-one cares.

[Urwen]

Listing all those who went forth to meet despair?

First age gives us these:

Feanor
Maedhros
Beren & Finrod & their posse
Luthien
Fingolfin
Aredhel
Huan
Hurin
Huor
Gwindor
Morwen
Nienor
Mablung
Beleg

Second age has none, third age gives us Eowyn, Merry, Pippin and Frodo.

But none of them matches the riddle in its entirety.

Maybe it's the King and Stewards. They said that they will only hold their positions until the King returns, but then they gave up on that as time progressed.

[Nerwen]

Maybe it's the King and Stewards. They said that they will only hold their positions until the King returns, but then they gave up on that as time progressed.
Almost there. "They" are the Stewards... but who exactly am "I", and who is "another in my place"?

[Urwen]

Earnur, who rode out to meet the Witch-King, and never returned.

[Nerwen]

Yup!

But if "I" am Eärnur and "they" are the Stewards, "another" is...?

[Urwen]

Mardil

(Or Aragorn)

[Nerwen]

Aragorn it is... the whole being from the point of view of a hypothetical ghost of Eärnur.;)

Over to you!:)

[Urwen]

Ere the Light came, we were there
Long ago our reign had started
These lands we ruled together
And we believed that our designs couldn't be thwarted

Two children we called our own
One of our body, the other in our mind
And though both of them fell down
Only one shall continue our line

Here did we dwell
Till greed overtook me
While this is farewell
I pray that we shall meet once more

[Urwen]

If you refuse to play because w/me further because of what happened yesterday, know that I am sorry.

[Urwen]

Another bump

[Nerwen]

If you refuse to play because w/me further because of what happened yesterday, know that I am sorry.
Well, it's really not me you need to apologise to, is it? Anyway, I'm not refusing to play with you, I've just been busy.

[Nerwen]

My guess is that the speaker is Thingol, addressing Melian:

Ere the Light came, we were there
Long ago our reign had started
These lands we ruled together
And we believed that our designs couldn't be thwarted -They ruled their realm in Middle-earth before the rising of the Sun and Moon.

Two children we called our own
One of our body, the other in our mind
And though both of them fell down
Only one shall continue our line -The child of the body is Lúthien. The other might be Túrin, whom they fostered.

Here did we dwell
Till greed overtook me
While this is farewell
I pray that we shall meet once more -Thingol's obsession with his Silmaril led to his murder by the Dwarves of Nogrod.

[Urwen]

I know, that's why I did it in public.

And correct.

[Nerwen]

Sorry for the hiatus. Here's the new one:

Sailing past the place of doom
Underneath the sickle moon
A captain and a crew of ten
Long kept in the speech of men.

Alas, the kitchen grew too hot-
Still, we've got this lovely yacht!
You take the mast, I'll take the prow-
Who'll say that we hate water now?

[Urwen]

Beruthiel and her ten cats (nine black & one white) . It is probably the cat on the prow speaking to the one at the mast. Beruthiel is 'the captain', of course. Place of doom is Umbar. And it's common knowledge that the cats hate water, though not all the time.

I have no idea about the sickle moon, though.

[Nerwen]

Correct!

For the bit that was puzzling you: "The ship was last seen flying past Umbar, under a sickle moon."

And I'm aware not all cats hate water- mine loves rain, actually, but then she's rather odd, even for a cat.;)

Over to you.

[Urwen]

Correct!

For the bit that was puzzling you: "The ship was last seen flying past Umbar, under a sickle moon."

And I'm aware not all cats hate water- mine loves rain, actually, but then she's rather odd, even for a cat.;)

Over to you.


Ah, TG only says that it went flying past Umbar, and says nothing about the sickle moon.

[Urwen]

What you saw wasn't me
Though it was me you had hoped to see
He had deceived thee
And now, you'll join me

[Galadriel55]

Eilinel talking to Gorlim? He was promised his wife and saw her ghost, was thus tricked by Sauron to betray his comrades and joined his wife in death.

[Urwen]

Yes.

[Galadriel55]

This one was inspired by a couple of Pitchie's old riddles. Please forgive the small element of plagiarism. :p



Sister, dark sister,
Born in the North.
I don't wound but bring sorrow,
You kill but bring mirth.

Sister, dear sister,
Born in the South.
You signal: start battle!
I put battle out.

Sister, dark sister,
Fly swiftly away!
You go towards foe,
I to friends ride away.

Sister, dear sister,
In scarlet adorned.
You're mightier than the pen,
I'm mightier than the sword.




Please give a reasoning for your answers and try to explain as many elements as you can. Happy riddling!

[Nerwen]

Hmmn. I think one of the elements- the sister "born in the south" might be Gondor's signal-beacons. The other... hmmn... maybe the banner Arwen made for Aragorn? Explanation to follow.

Edit... no, wait- it's the Black Arrow and the Red Arrow, isn't it?

[Galadriel55]

Edit... no, wait- it's the Black Arrow and the Red Arrow, isn't it?

Yes it is! :) Can you explain?

[Nerwen]

Sister, dark sister,
Born in the North. -Black, made by the Dwarves of Erebor.
I don't wound but bring sorrow, -The Red Arrow is "a token of war".
You kill but bring mirth. -The Black Arrow killed Smaug. Yay!

Sister, dear sister,
Born in the South. -In Gondor.
You signal: start battle!. -See: "token of war".
I put battle out. -See: killed Smaug. (Though this led to further conflict).

Sister, dark sister,
Fly swiftly away!
You go towards foe, -Towards the Dragon.
I to friends ride away. -To Rohan.

Sister, dear sister,
In scarlet adorned. -With the tip painted red.
You're mightier than the pen -A powerful and instantly comprehensible "message".
I'm mightier than the sword. -Arrow > sword vs. flying enemy.

[Galadriel55]

Absolutely! Spot on!

Over to you now.

*gallivants off to the Smaug-killing party. Yay!*

[Urwen]

Lord, the last to look at me
What do you see?
Do you see me as your love's killer
Even though I set her free?

Lord, don't blame me
For what has happened here
Know that I've spared her further pain
And that you might meet her again

[Urwen]

No takers?

[Urwen]

:(

[Huinesoron]

Oh, is it Glaurung to Turin? I was thinking 'a weapon', which took me onto Gurthang, which took me to that moment.

hS

[Urwen]

You got the right tale, though the speaker isn't a living thing. Or rather, it's a place 'speaking' to a person.

[Urwen]

Would you like an easier riddle?

[Pervinca Took]

Maybe a hint instead?

[Urwen]

Like I said, it's a place speaking to a person, and it's in CoH. Take a look at how the person is addressed.

[Pervinca Took]

It would be Turin looking at the place where Nienor leapt to her death - Cabed-an-aras or however it's spelled, wouldn't it?

[Urwen]

Cabed-En-Aras is indeed the speaker, so I'll give it to you. However, Lord is not Turin, but Brandir, Lord of Brethil, who was the last person to gaze upon it before its name was changed, and who was in love with Niniel.

[Pervinca Took]

Thank you. :)

Have just made this one:

I was there to give a message
I could help to make some more
In Cockney slang it would be cruel
But here, unknown is Cockney lore.

[Urwen]

In Cockney, Cruel is Lawd Above.

[Pervinca Took]

Sorry, I meant Cockney rhyming slang, but the full term didn't scan.

[Pervinca Took]

I was there to give a message
I could help to make some more
In Cockney slang it would be cruel
But here, unknown is Cockney lore.

(To get it onto the current page).

[Urwen]

That's what I meant. Lawd above means cruel is cockney rhyming slang. I've used a translator.

[Urwen]

It has to be Gelmir or Arminas, Cirdan's messengers. Either that, or Red Arrow.

[Pervinca Took]

Well, it's not the right answer.

'Cruel' and 'Cockney slang' both refer to the message.

No correct guesses yet.

[Urwen]

I cannot find a Cockney term for either message or letter.....

[Pervinca Took]

The Cockney bit is not the main bit of the riddle. It only has two lines to complete the verse, and the riddle would still work without it. Ignore it, and just focus on the first two lines.

[Urwen]

Sauron? He could help in making some more Rings, and his 'message' was Celebrimbor's body on a pole.

[Pervinca Took]

Not Sauron, and nothing like as cruel as that. In fact not cruel at all in intention.

[Urwen]

Something to do with Shire? Unexpected party?

[Urwen]

Barliman Butterbur the errand boy? :p

[Pervinca Took]

Something to do with Shire? Unexpected party?

This is your closest guess so far.

[Urwen]

Bilbo deciding to leave the Shire and performing his final trick?

[Pervinca Took]

Bilbo deciding to leave the Shire and performing his final trick?

Even closer, but not there yet.

[Urwen]

Merry and Pippin setting off Fireworks?

[Pervinca Took]

Merry and Pippin setting off Fireworks?

Wash your mouth out with soap, young lady. ;)

Book, not film.

P.S. How is that a message? How could that or the Bilbo guess 'make some more?'

[Urwen]

Then......


I have no idea.

The important thing is that I solved the password, the best one I've seen yet. :D

[Urwen]

Maybe the three 'conspirators'?

(I confess, 'Conspiracy unmasked' still holds its position as the best chapter in the trilogy imho)

[Pervinca Took]

Maybe the three 'conspirators'?

(I confess, 'Conspiracy unmasked' still holds its position as the best chapter in the trilogy imho)

Why do you like it so much? Because their friendship is so moving?

For this puzzle, though:

Go back to the Long-Expected Party.

[Urwen]

Why do you like it so much? Because their friendship is so moving?

For this puzzle, though:

Go back to the Long-Expected Party.


Yes, that's why.

[Urwen]

Maybe the messages left by Bilbo to various people detailing his reasons for giving them things. Some of these messages and reasons could be considered cruel, especially the one addressed to Lobelia.

[Nerwen]

Hello, all, and sorry about disappearing again. I had guests over, and other things.

[Nerwen]

Maybe the messages left by Bilbo to various people detailing his reasons for giving them things. Some of these messages and reasons could be considered cruel, especially the one addressed to Lobelia.

What about the gold pen and ink-bottle given to Milo Burrows, who "never answered letters"?

I was there to give a message -i.e. "how about writing back to people?"
I could help to make some more. -by its nature.

Not sure about the second couplet- maybe the idea is that it conveys an insult in r.s., though I can't really think of one that would fit. (Ink/stink?)

[Pervinca Took]

Exactly right, Nerwen, and well done Urwen for guessing it was one of Bilbo's gifts 'speaking.'

A 'pen and ink' is indeed Cockney slang for a stink, but that wasn't Bilbo's meaning; nor would such a meaning be known in the Shire, as far as I know. (Maybe more Shagrat and Gorbag's style?) ;)

And a pen and ink bottle could, as Nerwen said, be used to write further messages.

I never thought, though, to get such a different interpretation as Celebrimbor on a pole! That was an eye-opener!

[Nerwen]

Urwen did most of the work, actually.

Anyway-

Named for trees
Both, we be;
Sundered from our loves for art.
I left a desert of the land-
You left a desert of the heart.

[Urwen]

Nimloth and someone else I can't recall.

[Urwen]

Nimloth and Telperien?

[Urwen]

Feanor would fit perfectly, except he isn't named after a tree.

[Nerwen]

None of them.

"Art" is being used in the broadest sense, as basically synonymous with "science", "craft" etc.

[Urwen]

If we go by that definition, then Feanor would still fit perfectly.