Riddles in the Downs

[Beorn of Carrock]

well, I would say aragorn, but Urwen (lalaith :P) was faster

[satansaloser2005]

well, I would say aragorn, but Urwen (lalaith :P) was faster

Ah, but that doesn't mean she's right (or wrong, for that matter, as I've honestly not read the riddle). We encourage guessing here, so don't be shy! :)

[Rumil]

Hi all,

here we go, glad to see lots of guesses ;)

Blind Guardian - I agree that Gandaf fits suspiciously well, except for the bit about the 'cousin' in Lothlorien, I guess Radagast would be closest at Rhosgobel, but that doesn't count! Oh, and G accompanied Bilbo back from Erebor.

Legate, I'll come back to...

Urwen, don't think the jewel Elessar was ever at Bag End, sorry, and neither was Aragorn, sorry Beorn.

Go on satansaloser, give it a whirl!

And Legate, asking for hints already :eek:, I think I'll let you have a few guesses first :D

Cheers,
R

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And Legate, asking for hints already :eek:, I think I'll let you have a few guesses first

Well, that was not asking for hints, that was more like a rhetorical question :) The most peculiar to me is the Rivendell part now. I would have several guesses, but none really fits... I am just more like thinking aloud to sort my thoughts, it's rather difficult one :)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Narya comes to mind (one could describe the various rings as 'cousins,' I suppose, and Sauron's would certainly be a bother), but how or why Bilbo would have been 'warned' of it shoots the whole thing to pieces....

[Blind Guardian]

Often found at Bag End,
and though no-one mentioned me,
I must have been there that fine night,
under the party tree.

No sign at Farmer Maggot's
nor Crickhollow hideaway,
none at all at Old Tom's house,
even on washing day.

At Rivendell, the elves do tell,
Bilbo was warned of me.
But on his dragon quest and return West,
I'm lacking, don't you see?

My ancient cousin, you may discover,
in Galadriel's fair realm,
and mention of another,
but the cousin's far less bother.

But I'll be there,
though it's cold and bare,
by the seat of power,
in Ecthelion's Tower.
And you'll be glad,
my lass or lad,
to set your eyes on me.


Let's see, Gandalf was at Bilbo's party, so was Sam, Merry, Pippin, Bilbo, Frodo, and a lot of other hobbits. None of which have cousins in Lothien. Aragon was in Lothien but his mother died in Rivendell. Boromir, Gimli and Legolas went to Lothien, Legolas is the only I can think of having a cousin their. LEGOLAS!

[Beorn of Carrock]

I bet that the Westernmost place that Legolas had travelled was Rivendell, unless he was born before Oropher's arrival in Greenwood.

My pick goes to a Dwarf. There are some mentioned in Bilbo's party, and Gimli passed from Lorien as a memmber of the Fellowship. Does he has any mentioned cousin? If yes, my guess would go there.

[Pitchwife]

Funny idea - could it be cakes?

Often found at Bag End,
and though no-one mentioned me,
I must have been there that fine night,
under the party tree.
- I'd suppose so, too.

No sign at Farmer Maggot's
nor Crickhollow hideaway,
- they wouldn't have gone so well with the mushrooms.
none at all at Old Tom's house,
even on washing day.
- Tom's menu mentions "yellow cream, honeycombs, and white bread and butter", but no cakes.

At Rivendell, the elves do tell,
Bilbo was warned of me.
- "Mind Bilbo doesn't eat all the cakes! He's too fat to get through key-holes yet"
But on his dragon quest and return West,
I'm lacking, don't you see?
- Presumably the provender for the quest didn't include any.

My ancient cousin, you may discover,
in Galadriel's fair realm,
- lembas, of course.
and mention of another,
but the cousin's far less bother.
- Gimli mentioned cram in Lórien, but lembas were much better.

But I'll be there,
though it's cold and bare,
by the seat of power,
in Ecthelion's Tower.
- Pippin and Gandalf were served "white cakes" while talking with Denethor.
And you'll be glad,
my lass or lad,
to set your eyes on me.
- Pippin certainly was!

[Rumil]

Ibrin - nope, not Narya

BG - nope, not Legolas

Beorn - nope, not a dwarf

Pitchwife, of course you have it, indeed, CAKE!

Excellent job, and explanation, I could see Legate was on the right track, but nobody fancies woodworm for tea ;)

Was thinking of calling this 'canonical occurences of the word "cake" in the legendarium' :D

Of course the Bag End bit refers to the Dwarves raiding Bilbo's larder in The Hobbit and snaffling all his seed-cake (on which there was a thread many moons ago). And I'm surprised by the lack of mention of a birthday cake at the eleventy-first shindig.

And you'll be glad,
my lass or lad,
to set your eyes on me.

Everyone likes cake!

All yours Pitchwife,
(I'll have to think of a tricky one next time!)

[Pitchwife]

Thanks, Rumil!
This was another good one, and quite amusing in hindsight. I found it tricky enough, and I don't think I'd have guessed it if Legate hadn't brought up the idea that it could be an object rather than a person. But what really gave it away was the end - 'lass and lad' sounded distinctly hobbitish to my ear, and knowing hobbits, what would they be most glad to set their eyes on? Food, of course!:)
Now why do I always have to solve a riddle when I haven't got a new one ready?:o But I'll try hard to think something up soon; and Urwen, if you pop in here, have a nice cuppa tea, practice lotus position, listen to your own breath and... you get the picture.:)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Thank God I was wrong! I've never been any good at constructing riddles, so I don't quite know why I piped up in the first place. Going back to lurking mode.... :)

[Beorn of Carrock]

great guess, mate!!!

[Pitchwife]

Let's try this:

I keep the guard though I have no eyes,
I speak old words but am none of the Wise;
prize of thief not won by theft,
yet from my hidden home I was reft.
No beast am I, yet by hunters sought;
to some who craved me their bane I brought.

[Urwen]

Despite your warning,I'll take a try
The one Ring?;)

[Pitchwife]

I like to think I wouldn't be quite that obvious...;)
OK, I admit it sounds very much like the Ring, more than I actually realized before posting it; but the Ring is only an almost-match, not a perfect one (e.g. what would 'keep the guard' mean in its case? And none of the places where it lay 'hidden' for a while was really its 'home'). Keep guessing!

(P.S. What warning? I was merely asking you to give me a few days time to think of a new riddle, and thanks for the waiting. You're welcome to guess, of course!:))

[Eorl of Rohan]

Nauglamir?

[Eönwë]

Is it Bilbo/Frodo's Mithril shirt?

I keep the guard though I have no eyes, - Armour
I speak old words but am none of the Wise; - not sure about this one
prize of thief not won by theft, - Bilbo was given it by Thorin
yet from my hidden home I was reft. - Taken from Smaug's hoard
No beast am I, yet by hunters sought; - "Here's a pretty hobbit-skin to wrap an elven-princeling in! If it were known that hobbits had such hides, all the hunters of Middle-earth would be riding to the Shire."
to some who craved me their bane I brought. - The orcs who fought over it at Cirith Ungol

[Pitchwife]

Eorl - lukewarm. As in, a wee bit closer than the Ring, but not warm enough to thaw frozen toes.

Eönwë- hot. Very hot. As in, Ouch! That burned! - but not quite the heart of Orodruin. The problem is, of course, that pesky line 2, which doesn't fit the shirt in any way that I'm aware of... but having come so close, give your thought just another twist, and you've got it.

(PS. - You've just given me an idea for the Bad Translator thread...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ha! And I thought Eönwë was right - okay, perhaps that gives me some hope. But I am not really sure. I was thinking of Glamdring and/or Orcrist (no idea how, in this context, I could tell them apart). They have some writings on their blades, they were taken from Gondolin by thieves, but found and not stolen by the Dwarves, here I am not so sure about the last two lines though. Also the guard thing does not fit 100%, although of course such a weapon is used for guard, but it's rather a secondary thing (you mainly use it for attack).

[Pitchwife]

Sorry to disappoint you, Legate, but getting cooler. As you say yourself, the last two lines don't fit... and as for 'the guard thing', that needs to be taken much more literally.

[Eönwë]

The Dragon helm maybe?


edit: Actually, it does have eyes, and I don't think the last two apply... Hmm...

[Pitchwife]

No, you were much much much closer before... and some of the explanations you gave in your earlier post were spot on, but not all. I don't really know how to put this without giving too much away, but the individual lines should be taken quite literally and the whole riddle more generally.
And helmets (although not the one you mention) do have something to do with it.

[The Might]

Well what about Anglachel/Gurthang?

I keep the guard though I have no eyes, - protects Túrin
I speak old words but am none of the Wise; - spoke to Túrin before his death
prize of thief not won by theft, - Túrin won it by killing his own friend
yet from my hidden home I was reft. - perhaps a reference to the caves of Mengroth
No beast am I, yet by hunters sought; - people came looking for the one wielding it
to some who craved me their bane I brought. - another reference to Túrin's outcome

Sounds ok to me, especially with the "speak" part.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, TM, still getting cooler (but thanks for parrying the 10 days sword of Damocles!).
Awlright, here's an important hint:
The lines don't all refer to the same single object. Still the correct answer is one single word.

[Eönwë]

Mithril?

[Pitchwife]

Mithril it is, Eönwë!

You've already correctly explained lines 3 and 5; here's the whole of my thoughts behind the verses:

I keep the guard though I have no eyes,
- mithril helmets worn by the Guards of the Citadel in Minas Tirith,
I speak old words but am none of the Wise;
- inscription on west gate of Moria in ithildin (which the Elves made of mithril),
prize of thief not won by theft,
- the mithril shirt Bilbo received for his burgling services,
yet from my hidden home I was reft.
- dug from lodes under Caradhras,
No beast am I, yet by hunters sought;
- Aragorn's words about the shirt when he found it on Frodo,
to some who craved me their bane I brought.
- Dwarves digging to deep for it awakened Durin's Bane (but the Orcs fighting over Frodo's shirt actually fit quite well, too).

See? I told you you were close. Take the floor!:)

[The Might]

Wow, I especially love the inscription part, never would have guessed it!
I forgot that ithildin was made of mithril.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wow! That was so cool! When I saw Eönwë's guess, I facepalmed and saw that he was obviously right. Still, however, I didn't think of all the explanations when I saw it! I thought of ithildin - that was really a good one! - but I didn't think of the particular connections with the prize of thief and the bane. BANE I brought!!! I love it when something in the riddle works literally! Why didn't I think of that? Perfect one, Pitchbadillo! I cannot rep you now, alas, but I'll make sure to when I can. Masterpiece!

[The Might]

Pitch? ;)

[Eönwë]

Go for it, Miggy.

[Galadriel55]

Since no one posted for quite a while, I'll go.


Brother killed with Androg's fate;
Father broken with despair and regret.
I had to choose between
Approval and my heart that was keen.
A descendant of mine was named
After one by the miserable betrayed.
The one who was named after me
Has a relative that was dived for in the sea.

I hope its not too obvious!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very nice one! And good to see this thread back up... :)

I would say the answer is Faramir.

Brother killed with Androg's fate; - Boromir, by arrows, like Andróg was
Father broken with despair and regret. - Denethor, of course
I had to choose between
Approval and my heart that was keen. - the question of Frodo and the Ring
A descendant of mine was named
After one by the miserable betrayed. - if I recall correctly, Faramir's son was named Barahir, who was betrayed by Gorlim
The one who was named after me
Has a relative that was dived for in the sea. - I am sort of wondering about this one. Obviously the person in question is Faramir, son of Peregrin; but whoever is his relative remains a mystery to me. There are those Tooks spoken of as going to the sea, but that does not really sound like the case, also the relationship is rather distant. Unless, I think there is some Took whose name was Pearl, so if it is metaphorical... I don't recall how distant such relationship would be, though, either.

[Galadriel55]

I new it would be too easy. The riddle didn't last one day....
Pearl is Pippin's sister, according to the faily trees. This clue was meant to confuse people and make them think that the person in question has something to do with the Sea.
And it was Faramir's grandson that was Barahir. I don't think that his son's name is even mentioned. It doesn't really matter, though, since the general idea stay the same.
Ask us, Legate of Amon Lanc

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And it was Faramir's grandson that was Barahir. I don't think that his son's name is even mentioned. It doesn't really matter, though, since the general idea stay the same.

Well, at least in the prologue to LotR it says that it was his son... (in my version at least)

Anyway, will post my riddle in a short time... need to come up with something worthwhile :)

[Pitchwife]

It wasn't too easy or obvious at all, G55 - Legate is just darn good at this kind of riddling. In fact, I think it was very nice, alluding to various parts of LotR from foreword to family trees and even the Silmarillion, I like that. Looking forward to your next one!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Pitchwife is right, Galadriel55. Just like he said, it was really well-created and in fact, at one point I felt almost sorry for answering it so early, but then on the other hand, you may find it as a positive sign that the reason why I came to answer it was because it caught my attention - because it was interesting. So I think you can take it positively :) I think riddles like this are nice to have around.

Here goes mine, then... I have found out that it is difficult to get back to the riddle-making business after a long time when I have not been doing it, but hope you are going to like it nevertheless :)

In twilight born my mother was,
her path did end by Western shores
after the mountains shook, before
the darkness came in times of yore
and after glory came the loss.

Close to the King was she of late,
but long before, in tide of fate
I have been thrown into the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall
when Men of Light have earned his hate.

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid
when fear was piercing all their hearts.

They came and went - I have remained.

Happy riddling!

[Galadriel55]

Now that's what I call a nice confusing riddle! There are so many (or at least it seems so) symbolical clues that its hard to tell what to take literally!

The first stanza reminds me of the Fall of Numenor. I have no clue who the "mother" can be, though.
The last stanza sounds like Maeglin - betrayal during a raid. But he didn't remain. That last line makes me thik this is not about any character, but rather a thing or concept. But then how can it have a mother?

Total nonsense, I know. But it might give some ideas to someone smarter. :)

[Pitchwife]

I have found out that it is difficult to get back to the riddle-making business after a long time when I have not been doing it, but hope you are going to like it nevertheless :)
Well, your encrypting skills are obviously not diminished in the least!
That last line makes me thik this is not about any character, but rather a thing or concept. But then how can it have a mother?
No nonsense at all! I think you're on to something here, and the solution could perhaps be something like a geographical feature, like, say, a river or a road; in which case the 'mother' would be metaphorical (e.g. a river's source could be considered its mother), and the 'King' may be as well (not necessarily though). 'After the mountains shook' and 'the Dark One's fall' sound very much like the War of Wrath and the drowning of Beleriand, but beyond that, I'm groping in the dark. Very intriguing, this!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now that's what I call a nice confusing riddle! There are so many (or at least it seems so) symbolical clues that its hard to tell what to take literally!
Well, your encrypting skills are obviously not diminished in the least!
Thanks! Just don't let the initial puzzling character of the riddle chase you away. In fact, to give you some hope, among your conclusions (of both of you), there are some good points heading exactly in the right direction, and some at least partially (there are, of course, also some things in which you are totally off, but there is surprising amount of things in which you are "buzzing around" the right way of interpretation - usually people's first tries are totally off). Just keep going on :)

[Galadriel55]

The riddle also reminds me of Feanor.
Twilight - Miriel was born in ME when there were only stars
Her path did end by western shores - she died in Aman, ie in the West
After glory came the loss - Feanor brought the glory of Valinor to an end, and loss could refer to either the Trees, the Noldor going away, the dtolen Silmarili, or something else that I can't think of at the moment.
Close to the King was she of late - Miriel was Finwe's wife
I have been thrown into the war - Feanor started the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall - I don't know how that works
when Men of Light have earned his hate - I don't know how this fits either, since Men didn't exist yet

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - well, he was friendly to the Valar once, and he stored light in the Silmarili that are very hard to break - he put a "guarding wall" around the light
till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid - he attacked the Teleri
when fear was piercing all their hearts - when Morgoth destroyed the Trees and killed Finwe
They came and went - I have remained - the Silarili still exist, although they are separated.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Unfortunately, yes, as you said yourself, there are things which wouldn't work. Nonetheless, a brave attempt. Also a note to the last verse, which I might bring to your attention (and perhaps it might be helpful for you if I say that), in your interpretation "I have remained" would suddenly mean switching from Fëanor to the Silmarils as his creation, but I can assure you that "I have remained" refers still directly and exactly to the "speaker" of the riddle.

But go on, go on, even unsuccessful attempts bring you closer to finding the answer...

[Galadriel55]

OK, then!
If the riddle is referring to a place, like Pitch said, I'd say it's Drengist, because it begins in Dor Lomen - the land of twilight, and it flows to the western shore of Beleriand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, care to elaborate more about what exactly are all the events, Kings, Men, guards etc. in such case? Then I could show you more clearly why it is wrong ;) But no, that was just a remark, it is simply not the right answer. Note at least one thing: if it was indeed Drengist, then if you look at the riddle, it actually says "my mother" was born in twilight, and likewise it was her path that ended by western shores, so - if it is Drengist that begins in Dor-Lómin and ends in the west, as you say, then Drengist would actually have to be the mother, and now the question is, who is the "child"? Because that is the answer we are looking for.

But anyway, I think you are somehow hovering around the right path to find the answer...

[Galadriel55]

just a free association without any reasoning behind it...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, not him either.

All right, a hint (or sort of, a suggestion): I recommend focusing on the first two posts you and Pitch have made, there in some of the speculations you were aiming in the quite right direction. Also be aware of the thing I said when you guessed Drengist, remembering that we are looking for the child of the mother, not really for the mother herself (although of course it is related...)

[Galadriel55]

Either the thing or the mother is a geographical location/feature, and that's the farthest that I got to. I have no clue how a place can betray, unless its something like someone good who's hiding being revealed or a ship going against the current of a river might be late... or something in the same spirit. I can't think of anything like that, though, that would remain. Any ideas, Pitchwife?

[Pitchwife]

OK, results of my brainstorming so far:
In twilight born my mother was,
her path did end by Western shores
after the mountains shook, before
the darkness came in times of yore
and after glory came the loss.
This made me think of the River/Gulf of Lhûn, which I presume was one of the tributaries of Gelion before the drowning of Beleriand; in which case the 'mother' would be the tributary of the Lhûn which springs from the Hills of Evendim (which is another word for twilight). After the mountains shook (i.e. after the War of Wrath) the Lhûn issued directly into the Sea (=Western shores). Before the darkness came etc. could refer to the decline of the Kingdom of Arnor - which however didn't affect the course of the River, so ???

Close to the King was she of late
but long before, in tide of fate
I have been thrown into the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall
when Men of Light have earned his hate.
Annúminas, the royal city of Arnor, was right on the other side of the hills; IIRC it was sacked by the Witch-King (=the Dark One) in his war against Arnor; the fall could refer to his overcoming in the Battle of Fornost, when Eärnur, Captain and later King of Gondor, earned his special hatred.

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid
when fear was piercing all their hearts.

They came and went - I have remained.
Here my first thoughts were the bridge of Osgiliath, or maybe the gates of Minas Tirith (building on the vicious nightly raid), but in both cases the guards survived while the object that was their friend didn't, so meh:(. In any case I find it impossible to reconcile this stanza with my interpretation of the first and second without an amount of stretching that would get me lynched if this was Werewolf - so I'm still pretty much lost.
Ah well, maybe this gives you some thoughts which will eventually lead us to the solution. Good luck!

[Nerwen]

This made me think of the River/Gulf of Lhûn, which I presume was one of the tributaries of Gelion before the drowning of Beleriand; in which case the 'mother' would be the tributary of the Lhûn which springs from the Hills of Evendim (which is another word for twilight). After the mountains shook (i.e. after the War of Wrath) the Lhûn issued directly into the Sea (=Western shores). Before the darkness came etc. could refer to the decline of the Kingdom of Arnor - which however didn't affect the course of the River, so ???
Whatever this is, my guess is that "the darkness" and "after glory came the loss" refers to the fate of Númenor, which also changed the shape of the world. So in that case we would be looking for a geographical feature (the "mother") that reached the western coast only in the Second Age.

I haven't thought of what it could be, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think you are getting quite close.

Just a remark, related to what Nerwen suggested (and what Pitch mentioned too, only I didn't realise he might have meant it that way), if you are trying to make some timeframe out of what is said, the riddle is not supposed to mean that the path of the mother ended by the western shores between the time when the mountains shook and after the darkness came, there suddenly was another path appearning or anything like that. It was simply (perhaps in somewhat confusing way, I apologise) meant to say that the time when her path came to end by western shores is defined by two things: it was after the mountains shook, and before the darkness came; they are two descriptions of the same period. Sometime in this period, it came to be that the mother's path ended by the western shores, as in, a finished process (not like that it ended somewhere between these times and later it suddenly ended elsewhere - that even wouldn't make sense, especially if we take the mother literally). Hope it is clear what I mean... :)

[Nerwen]

Okay, thanks for the clarification, Legate.

[Blind Guardian]

I think you are getting quite close.

Just a remark, related to what Nerwen suggested (and what Pitch mentioned too, only I didn't realise he might have meant it that way), if you are trying to make some timeframe out of what is said, the riddle is not supposed to mean that the path of the mother ended by the western shores between the time when the mountains shook and after the darkness came, there suddenly was another path appearning or anything like that. It was simply (perhaps in somewhat confusing way, I apologise) meant to say that the time when her path came to end by western shores is defined by two things: it was after the mountains shook, and before the darkness came; they are two descriptions of the same period. Sometime in this period, it came to be that the mother's path ended by the western shores, as in, a finished process (not like that it ended somewhere between these times and later it suddenly ended elsewhere - that even wouldn't make sense, especially if we take the mother literally). Hope it is clear what I mean... :)


You make me think the mother is Arda.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You make me think the mother is Arda.

Who knows? But even if it was, the question is who is the son/daughter.

[Galadriel55]

Judging by Legate's second-last post, it does indeed sound like the Numenor. The time period was between the War of Wrath (mountains shook) and the time when Sauron arose and brought darkness - to ME in general, but also to Numenor specifically. After the glory came the loss - Numenor was very prosporous, but after Sauron came it was lost in a huge "natural disaster". Numenor was pretty close to Aman, so that is what's probably meant by here path did end by Western shores - but path???? As for the child, I really don't know. Elendil? when did he or his heirs ever betray? Something they brought from Numenor? Palantiri, White tree, the stone on Erech...none seem to fit. It culd also refer to Dark Numenorians, but they haven't remained. So maybe not Numenor after all. :confused:

[Nerwen]

Judging by Legate's second-last post, it does indeed sound like the Numenor. (...) So maybe not Numenor after all. :confused:
No; I didn't mean Númenor was the answer, I meant the period in which the "mother's" path "did end by Western shores" might be that between the War of Wrath and the Downfall of Númenor (i.e. the Second Age, more or less).

*sigh* This is a tricky one, Legate! I can think of many things which nearly fit– but never on all points. And knowing you, I expect the answer you have in mind will fit.

Might I beg you for a hint?:Merisu:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Surely, you may ;)

I just have to think what sort of hint to give. Maybe there's been too much thinking about the mother, perhaps it might help to let her be for a while and try it from the other end. I would suggest looking more at the second half of the riddle, let's say the last part but also the thing about blood and how the Men of Light have earned the Dark One's hate. The words used there are deliberate, they are not merely a "random stuffing". Also, ask yourselves who are the guards "of light - of peace"... and also, you might want to think once again about Pitchwife's earlier thoughts regarding the third part.

[Galadriel55]

Well, you sure stumped us all with that riddle, Legate!
I think that "men of light" does indeed reffer to the Numenorians - doesn't Faramir call them that?
As for "guards of light - of peace" - could it perhaps be refferring to the people of Minas Tirith (guards), once Minas Anor (light)? I don't remember who said it, but they said that "we're just defending our land and our city; we do not want war" (peace)?
If that's true, the person/thing/place in question has to be very old. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, you are at the right track at least with the Men of Light, and with the guards somewhat too. Perhaps it will be even easier if you consider it like this: they are 1. guards. 2. of what? Of light, and of peace (I suggest putting more stress on the peace, it is clearer that way). What does it mean, effectively? "Peace" is rather abstract term. What are they guarding?

But Men of Light, yea, as I said, good track. Put together all the hints you had from before, try to combine it... take the separate answers for each of the parts, and where the lines cross, so to say, you'll find the answer...

[Galadriel55]

At first I was kinda leaning in the direction of Gondor, but the way you put it, it sounds more like the Rangers. They guard the "simple peaceful folk" from dark things. Makes any sense?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Possibly? :)

I would say just this; in general, you are thinking correctly, so now just focus on trying to come up with the final answer. Once you have the correct answer, you'll be also able to verify it, because you will be able to understand what the different parts of the riddle mean, and it will make sense.

Good riddlance! ;)

[Galadriel55]

"when Men of Light have earned his hate" - If I'm right in thinking that the men of Light are Numenorians or their descendants, then the "war" was probably the one of the Last Alliance. Sauron started hating Numenor long before that, but then Ar Pharazon just took him prisoner, and there wasn't really any war where blood is really that involved. It says that when Sauron came back to ME and found out that the Elendili escaped, he hated them even more.
"Close to the King was she of late, but long before, in tide of fate I have been thrown into the war" - the mother was close to the King after the war? Am I really that stupid or is this just a really confusing part?
Also, if my last two posts are somewhat correct, the people who this person betrayed are the descendants of Numenorians, and it happened at night, and it was most likely unexpected, since s/he was a "friend". And s/he remained when they didn't. ????????:confused:???????
!IDEA!: s/he remained in memmory when the others were forgotten?
!IDEA#2!: "came and went" - could it be from Frodo's qoute "no, they never end as tales. The people in them come, and go...", and this person just remained for longer?
Geesh! So many guesses and none fully verified!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very good thoughts, actually, very good thoughts, most of them... I think only the last two ideas are already getting too much on the speculative level, the start was better :)

And yes, it is really meant so that the mother was close to the King only later, and long time before that, there was this war thing. Or if you want me to formulate it in a different way: the King definitely was not close to the mother at the earlier time.

The sentence which you end by many questionmarks is entirely correct :D

And as for earning the hate, good thoughts as well, or at least on the right track... and the blood was really that involved.

[Nerwen]

Is it Sarn Ford, the crossing of the Brandywine/Baranduin?

In twilight born my mother was,
–The Brandywine (the "mother") originates in Lake Evendim.


her path did end by Western shores
after the mountains shook, before
the darkness came in times of yore
and after glory came the loss.
Following my earlier reasoning, this refers to the Second Age: the river did not flow into the sea before this.


Close to the King was she of late,
The Brandywine arises by the royal city of Annúminas.


but long before, in tide of fate
I have been thrown into the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall
when Men of Light have earned his hate.
Refers to the earlier defeat of Sauron by Tar-Minastir's forces– he was "driven away south-east after great slaughter at Sarn Ford", and after further battles completely routed– this caused him to vow revenge on Númenor.


I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid
when fear was piercing all their hearts.
Sarn Ford is on the borders of the Shire, which the Rangers guarded. However, they proved unable to hold it against the invading Nazgûl on the night of 22 September.


They came and went - I have remained.
*shrugs* Well, it did.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, absolutely correct answer. Well, now perhaps somebody can objectively tell me how difficult it was :)

Your turn, Nerwen!

[Nerwen]

Indeed, absolutely correct answer. Well, now perhaps somebody can objectively tell me how difficult it was :)

Difficult indeed!

Only now I realise I should have got it ages ago– I had the correct "mother", "Dark One's fall" and "nightly raid" on my list of possibilities for each, but it wasn't until I did some re-reading just now that I made the connection.

[Pitchwife]

*applauds*
Congratulations, Nerwen! I actually considered Sarn Ford myself when Galadriel55 brought up the Rangers, but I'd never have thought of the role it played in Tar-Minastir's war, and therefore discarded it 'cause I couldn't make it fit the second stanza. Great riddling!

To answer your question, Legate, I think it was quite tough indeed, but beautifully woven with its allusions across two Ages of history, and once you know the answer, it's perfectly logical. Loved it!

[Galadriel55]

Wow! Such a simple answer for such a complicated riddle! Great job, Nerwen! And great job, Legate, for such a riddle! :D I'm looking forward to your riddle, Nerwen!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, thanks, everybody! :)

I think somehow, whenever I start making a riddle, I start thinking "Hey, this is really too simple, this is rather obvious, am I not making it too transparent and easy...?" Obviously, always the truth is the opposite... but it happens to me every time, because I think "this time I might be trying to make it too easy". Well... :D

But anyway, looking forward to Nerwen's riddle :)

[Galadriel55]

Well, I didn't do that bad on this riddle, if I reconsider. If it wasn't for me bringing up the Rangers, we'd be stuck on it for another few days... :D

[Nerwen]

Well, I didn't do that bad on this riddle, if I reconsider. If it wasn't for me bringing up the Rangers, we'd be stuck on it for another few days... :D
As you see I built on both your guesses and Pitchwife's, so you could say it was a joint effort, really. That's what it took– Legate is the prince of riddlers.

*sigh* I've just been reading this thread, and my goodness! you're a hard act to follow, Legate!:(

Oh, well, perhaps you'll all be glad of something nice and easy this time:

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow;
Shadow I helped defeat.

Patient was I, but rash move I made.
Madness tore me; now at last I
Know what it is to sleep.

[Galadriel55]

Oh, well, perhaps you'll all be glad of something nice and easy this time

Not as easy as you think it is! At least for me. I can think of lots of people who fit into one half of the riddle but not the other, and none of them really fit into both! I'll just have to keep trying, then...

[Nerwen]

Not as easy as you think it is! At least for me.
Don't worry, I just was indulging in a bit of smug irony there– I'd really put this at a moderate level of difficulty. (It should, though, be easier than the last.)

I can think of lots of people who fit into one half of the riddle but not the other, and none of them really fit into both! I'll just have to keep trying, then...
*shrug* If you like– but remember, the last one was solved through a series of partial guesses.

[Nerwen]

I see we're on a new page now, so I'll re-post the riddle:

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow;
Shadow I helped defeat.

Patient was I, but rash move I made.
Madness tore me; now at last I
Know what it is to sleep.

[Galadriel55]

The person that fits most of the ones that I thought of is Saruman.
Faithful I, - the flaw in this guess
yet I my lord betrayed - well, he did. He betrayed Eru.
To serve the one who wielded shadow; - aka Sauron
Shadow I helped defeat. - well, half of TTT is about Saruman's double treachery.

Patient was I, but rash move I made. - in "The Voice of Saruman", he begins as a patient but slightly annoyed superior, but then he looses control over himself
Madness tore me; - don't you think he was a bit mad when he met Frodo&others on their way to Rivendell, and even madder in The Scouring of the Shire?
now at last I Know what it is to sleep. - ieI DIED

Doesn't really fit, but fits more than other traitors that I considered. I have the feeling that the real answer is pretty obvious, and its laughing at me right now :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I haven't been able to come up with anything sensible for some time, all the time the word "faithful" made me think of Númenoreans, but actually, now after reading G55's guess, I thought of Gollum.

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed - good Sméagol always helps the Master, but is a little treacherous, preciouss
To serve the one who wielded shadow; - Sauron or maybe even Shelob, weaving her webs of shadow
Shadow I helped defeat. - yet in fact destroyed the Ring

Patient was I, but rash move I made. - managed to wait for his Ring for quite long, but then made a rash move - it was definitely a rash move to step where there was no ground on the edge of the crater anyway
Madness tore me; - I think nobody of us doubts that he was mad, and it even tore him in two parts, right, PJ...
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - sleeping in a rather warm bed...

[Nerwen]

No, it's not Saruman. A clever guess, however. And in fact I guess you could make the "faithful" part fit– presumably, he was faithful before he, er, wasn't... but in fact the first line is more applicable to the party in question than that.

now at last I Know what it is to sleep. - ieI DIED
Yes, that does of course mean "the big sleep"– but the exact wording is important.

Doesn't really fit, but fits more than other traitors that I considered. I have the feeling that the real answer is pretty obvious, and its laughing at me right now.

Yes and no. The answer isn't obscure– I mean, it's not some minor character who only appears in a fragment in Volume such-and-such of HoME, or anything like that. However, I'll tell you now that there are some "trick" lines.:smokin:

EDIT:X'd with Legate.

[Nerwen]

Legate–

Ah. Now that is a most ingenious solution, and fits all points nicely. It is, however, wrong.:p

It does show something of the right approach, though.

[Galadriel55]

Yes, that does of course mean "the big sleep"– but the exact wording is important.

What does she have in her mind, my preciousss, yesss, we wondersssss... an Elf, perhaps? Luthien doesn't really fit, and Arwen fits even less... Perhaps an Elf that was killed? We knows many Elves, bad cluel Elves with bright eyes... Feanor, maybe?

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed - ????who exactly did he betray? The Valar? Not lords. Finwe? Wasn't really betrayed, he was just really upset with Feanor. ????:confused:
To serve the one who wielded shadow; - served Morgoth's purposes
Shadow I helped defeat. - well, that's what The Sil is about, and Feanor kinda started it
Patient was I, - must have been: how long does it take to make a perfect Silmaril?
but rash move I made. - um, half his life was made of rash moves, most prominent of which is the kinslaying at Alqualonde
Madness tore me; - well, what else would you call his rebellion? Not wisdom, for sure!
now at last I know what it is to sleep. - yes, he can calm down forever *evil grin*

[Nerwen]

Galadriel55– another very clever answer. But as you point out yourself, the first line would be a stretch. The answer to this riddle betrayed a certain, specific lord, and played a more immediate role in "defeating shadow".

I did wonder if someone would guess Fëanor, though.;)

And again, you're also taking the right approach (in a different way).

[Pitchwife]

Is it Húrin?

Faithful I - his epithet Thalion, the Steadfast, and his resistance to Morgoth's attempt to win him over;
yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow - "Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech!", giving away the location of Gondolin to Morgoth's eavesdropping spies;
Shadow I helped defeat. - hmm, maybe by covering Turgon's retreat from the Nirnaeth so that Eärendil could be born and raised in Gondolin?

Patient was I - sitting on Thangorodrim all those years, forced to watch Morgoth TV;
but rash move I made.
Madness tore me - could refer to his dealings with the Woodmen in Brethil, or to the affair with Thingol and the Nauglamír;
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - finding ease of his torments in death; part of Morgoth's curse was that he couldn't die before Morgoth released him.

[Nerwen]

No, it is not Húrin. However, that is the best guess yet, and more the right sort of answer.

Faithful I - his epithet Thalion, the Steadfast, and his resistance to Morgoth's attempt to win him over;

(...)

now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - finding ease of his torments in death; part of Morgoth's curse was that he couldn't die before Morgoth released him.
Again, this is not the solution, but you're right in looking for someone for whom those lines have particular significance.

Also, remember what I said earlier: there are a couple of "trick" lines; what I might call riddles-within-a-riddle. Working out what these really mean would be a great help to you.:cool:

*smiles mysteriously*

[Urwen]

The Unhappy?

Faithful I - Well, he was faithful till the kidnapping
yet I my lord betrayed - for sake of his wife
To serve the one who wielded shadow - Sauron,sort of
Shadow I helped defeat. - He warned the son of his lord of incoming danger; also, were it not for his treachery, the biggest couple of First age may not have met each other and Silmaril would still be with Morgoth

Patient was I - He always returned to check on his wife
but rash move I made. - One day, he heard her calling, rushed to see her and thus was captured etc.
Madness tore me - Grief for his wife
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - died

I explained all the lines! :D

[Nerwen]

I explained all the lines!
Yes, you did, my dear, well done– only it isn't Gorlim. About time someone guessed him, though. I thought it would be much earlier.

You are now verrrry warm.

But remember– trick lines!

[Galadriel55]

Um, Wormtongue?

Faithful I - as Gandalf said, for many years he served Theoden faithfully, as he could
yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow - aka Saruman
Shadow I helped defeat. - killed Saruman
Patient was I - gradually loosening Theoden's will and "poisoning his thoughts"
but rash move I made. - Maybe how he spit at Theoden?
Madness tore me - Killed Saruman when he was...pretty angry
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - well, he constantly had to be vigilant with his "master", be it Theoden or Saruman. When he died, it must have been something of a relief not to constantly be on the watch...

[Nerwen]

...but no, it is not Wormtongue. That's getting colder again... look at my replies to the last two guesses.

[Urwen]

So, I think that 'Shadow' isn't neccessarily bad (since Hurin was close, and Gorlim even closer, I think it's someone from the tale of Beren and Luthien)

Am I hitting close?

[Nerwen]

So, I think that 'Shadow' isn't neccessarily bad (since Hurin was close, and Gorlim even closer, I think it's someone from the tale of Beren and Luthien)

Am I hitting close?
*nods emphatically*

[skip spence]

Could be that dog, Celegorm's dog. Huan was his name, wasn't it?

I don't get the "madness tore me" line but the others seem to fit well enough.

[Galadriel55]

And if it's Huan, the "shadow" who he serves would be Luthien with her cloak And if you take "madness tore me" literally, you'll get "mad Carcharoth tore at me"! It all fits! You're a genius, Skip!!!
That was a really good clue, Nerwen! Usually, people put symbollic clues that you cannot take literally, but here you put one that has a simple literal meaning! It confused everybody! :p:D

Assuming it is Huan...

[Nerwen]

It is indeed Huan. Well done, skip!:)

And honourable mention goes to Urwen and G55– the latter for explaining "madness tore me".

Usually, people put symbollic clues that you cannot take literally, but here you put one that has a simple literal meaning! It confused everybody!
That was the plan.;) I was inspired by some earlier riddles that used much the same technique.

[Galadriel55]

If I stick around for another couple o' years, maybe I'll get somewhat better at this...:)
Great job, skip! Looking forward to your riddle! ;)

[Flame of Udûn]

Well this is my first post and it has been over 10 days (just) the riddle's pretty simple:

For long in exile I was to stay
A star shining bright as day
In lament the harpers often sing
I died at the hand of he who would be king

[Urwen]

It's either Celegorm or Arwen. For former, it's obvious... for latter, the king led her to accepting death... and she eventually die... or Feanor, if you consider Gothmog a king... or Elwe...or even Olwe... died at Feanor's hand. Or Elenwe, if you suppose that Helcaraxe was a King of nature...

I'm sota confused... so I'll wait for someone else to post, and then draw the answer from the riddle itself and previous guesses...

EDIT: On second thought, I'm guessing Tar-Meneldur. He willingly resigned in favour of his son, and thus his rule was killed. Or even his unfortunate daughter-in-law, Erendis, who drowned herself in the sea...

[Flame of Udûn]

nope afraid not keep trying i may try and get another verse done or will try to clarify certain words I think the use of hand and king in the last line will throw some people off

[Galadriel55]

For long in exile I was to stay - being a Noldor
A star shining bright as day - gil-galad=light of stars
In lament the harpers often sing - Gil-galad was an elven king, of him the harpers sadly sing...
I died at the hand of he who would be king - Sauron would rule ME (ie be king ) if Elendil and Gil-galad didn't stop him

[Urwen]

I was thinking him too. But like he said, the last line throws people off. So,I don't think it's him. I will not stop, however. Anyway, I'll be sure would-be-king isn't actually king. Therefore, I have a solid guess. It might not fit too well, but I will still guess it.

Morgoth himself (that's where would-be-king fits in) said...

"My hatred will forever be upon them, and my hand will follow them and lead them to bitter death... they'll die without hope, cursing both life and death.

But, as if to spite him, my namesake died before his 'hand' could reach her. Therefore, she is renowned for escaping Morgoth's power... the star hint could refer to this.

Then, after her merciful death, her papa tried to make a lament for her. On a HARP. :D

Lastly, Morgoth is the would-be-king...

A bit far-fetched, but we learn from mistakes, don't we?

My guess remains Urwen. (Also known as Lalaith)

[Flame of Udûn]

galadriel got it though the last line has one extra little bit the first part (I died at the hand...) is not just about Sauron killing him but how he killed him (with the heat from his hands) but thats just me nit picking so take it away

[Galadriel55]

Thanks!
This riddle is a bit short, and if it sounds too obscure I can add another couple of lines.

We're first and we're second,
Just once we have met.
One threw himself to his end,
The other on an untraveled path set.

[Ironfoot]

That sounds too much like Turin and Tuor, but by some miraculous fate I'm probably wrong. :o

[Galadriel55]

That sounds too much like Turin and Tuor, but by some miraculous fate I'm probably wrong. :o

However, you are correct! This is the second time I posted a riddle, and the second time it has been solved in less than a day.:rolleyes:
Do you care to explain the lines, or should I?

[Ironfoot]

However, you are correct! This is the second time I posted a riddle, and the second time it has been solved in less than a day.:rolleyes:
Do you care to explain the lines, or should I?

Well, that's what happens after being unable to guess your other riddle in that other thread. :smokin: The lines describe Turin, being the eldest cousin and Tuor the younger, upon the Pool of Ivrin where Tuor witnessed his cousins madness. Sadly, Turin did not even notice him...and as everyone knows, Turin asked Gurthang to slay him and he did, but Tuor's path was unknown at that time and nether did he know the great heights he would achieve.

Now I have to make a riddle! Have done haiku's but not riddles before...let's try this one. Hopefully wont be terribly difficult, or terrible in writing for that matter.

Older brother of my greater kin
but not diminished in legacy
I lie sleeping with the shadows
but not diminished in potency

The corrupted have defiled me
and my masters weep in their hearts
I had hoped my brother fared better
with our master's eternal art

[Galadriel55]

The lines describe Turin, being the eldest cousin and Tuor the younger, upon the Pool of Ivrin where Tuor witnessed his cousins madness. Sadly, Turin did not even notice him...and as everyone knows, Turin asked Gurthang to slay him and he did, but Tuor's path was unknown at that time and nether did he know the great heights he would achieve.

When I made the riddle, I thought that it's so weird that Turin and Tuor are first cousins though their fathers Hurin and Huor, and second cousins through Morwen and Rian, so that's what the first line is about. You got the other clues right - they met near Ivrin but didn't recognize each other, Turin threw himself onto Gurthang, and Tuor sailed to Valinor.

As for your riddle, it makes me think of Manwe and Morgoth, but I have the feeling that's not the answer.

[Ironfoot]

When I made the riddle, I thought that it's so weird that Turin and Tuor are first cousins though their fathers Hurin and Huor, and second cousins through Morwen and Rian, so that's what the first line is about. You got the other clues right - they met near Ivrin but didn't recognize each other, Turin threw himself onto Gurthang, and Tuor sailed to Valinor.

As for your riddle, it makes me think of Manwe and Morgoth, but I have the feeling that's not the answer.

Your feelings are right! It's not the answer. :p

[Galadriel55]

Somehow the riddle akes e think it's soe object that had an earlier "draft" or "prototype". Like the Rings of Power - the Dwarf's and Men's Rings were "practice work" for the Elvish ones, as well as the Ruling Ring (hence elder brother of my greater kin). "Sleeping with the shadows" could then mean that the nine Rings given to Men enslaved the Nazgul, who kept quiet until their time came. The second stanza crushed the whole guess though. The corrupted who defiled would be Sauron, but then what? The Men's Rings are upset that the Ruling Ring rules them and does evil? :p :o

[Ironfoot]

You're getting warmer with Sauron, that is the right direction. He has something to do with it, albeit indirectly. The rings are cold, very cold. I will admit the way I worded this is a bit tricky, so I may add another stanza down the road if people need it.

[Galadriel55]

Another shot in the dark - Arnor? "Older brother" of Gondor that outlasted it, thus becoming greater. The ruins of Arnorian cities are filled with shadows, and I guess you could say that the people - ie rangers - are like shadows. The Witch-King (who was corrupted by Sauron) destroyed Arnor, and "weeping masters" would be the Chieftains grieving for the loss. The "eternal art" could be a lot of things with a stretch :confused:... It might be that it's the Reunited Kingdom that is eternal because it outlasted and will yet outlast many a thing, and "master" would be Elendil...

[Ironfoot]

Another shot in the dark - Arnor? "Older brother" of Gondor that outlasted it, thus becoming greater. The ruins of Arnorian cities are filled with shadows, and I guess you could say that the people - ie rangers - are like shadows. The Witch-King (who was corrupted by Sauron) destroyed Arnor, and "weeping masters" would be the Chieftains grieving for the loss. The "eternal art" could be a lot of things with a stretch :confused:... It might be that it's the Reunited Kingdom that is eternal because it outlasted and will yet outlast many a thing, and "master" would be Elendil...

Ok, a little warmer since we're thinking locations now...but its not Arnor and Gondor. You are right about the eternal art outlasting many a thing. But which eternal art is it? This one is not as obvious.

[Evisse the Blue]

An obvious guess: Minas Morgul / Minas Ithil?

The 'eternal art' would then refer to Aragorn's power of healing, and so the 'brother' - Minas Tirith would 'fare better', from the end of the Third Age onwards. (while Minas Morgul would, even after Sauron's destruction, remain abandoned).

[Ironfoot]

An obvious guess: Minas Morgul / Minas Ithil?

The 'eternal art' would then refer to Aragorn's power of healing, and so the 'brother' - Minas Tirith would 'fare better', from the end of the Third Age onwards. (while Minas Morgul would, even after Sauron's destruction, remain abandoned).

That's not it, but that is an interesting way of interpreting it. Places is the correct line of thought, but these places are not as commonly named as the towers of the sun and moon. As for eternal art, there are many kinds, some mystical and others not so much.

[Evisse the Blue]

Old Forest?

[Ironfoot]

Not quite, but it is close to Eriador so you're getting warmer in that respect.

[Urwen]

I'll take the shot with Weathertop?

[Ironfoot]

Getting a bit warmer now...

[Urwen]

Now you hooked me on... I won't rest till I catch the answer....

So: Perhaps Elostirion, whose 'brother' is Tower of Meneltarma, the only remaining part of Atalante... or Grey Havens?

[Ironfoot]

Now you hooked me on... I won't rest till I catch the answer....

So: Perhaps Elostirion, whose 'brother' is Tower of Meneltarma, the only remaining part of Atalante... or Grey Havens?

Colder, but at the same time, lesser landmarks is the right direction of thought. Still, I don't think Elostirion was a place that lay in darkness.

[Galadriel55]

Fornost and Annuminas?

[Flame of Udûn]

It could be Nargothrond who's brother would be Gondolin

[Galadriel55]

It could be Nargothrond who's brother would be Gondolin

Ironfoot said that it's in/close to Eriador. I think that would mean that it's not anywhere in Beleriand.
Nargothrond and Gondolin fit rather nicely, though.

[Urwen]

the downs?

[Ironfoot]

Fornost and Annuminas?

Sorry for the wait!

Good guess, though Fornost falls into a ruined shadow of its former glory, it is not engulfed in darkness.

The Downs is the right train of thought. But those are made up of many bastard cousins and nephews and uncles, and that lineage gets a bit messy. These two brothers are far bigger.

[Flame of Udûn]

Ironfoot said that it's in/close to Eriador. I think that would mean that it's not anywhere in Beleriand.
Nargothrond and Gondolin fit rather nicely, though.
Ah didn't see that when I was looking through the stuff on the last page, this riddle is a tricky one since it is pretty general I think these are the two most likely
1. Moria- the first dwarven Kingdoms obvious defilement etc
2. Could be the old forest which (bar Mr Bombadill) is a rather evil place

[Ironfoot]

Ah didn't see that when I was looking through the stuff on the last page, this riddle is a tricky one since it is pretty general I think these are the two most likely
1. Moria- the first dwarven Kingdoms obvious defilement etc
2. Could be the old forest which (bar Mr Bombadill) is a rather evil place

One of those is very, very close!

[Evisse the Blue]

Hm, Caradhras?

[Flame of Udûn]

well then perhaps mount Gundabad or Fangorn

[Ironfoot]

well then perhaps mount Gundabad or Fangorn

Mount Gundabad it is!!! I'm glad someone got it. Take it away, Udun!

[Flame of Udûn]

*puffs on his pipe in triumph*

Right well I've struggled a bit with this but I think I've managed it ok
A love for two I tried to hold
but the two tore me apart
one I lost and so became whole
but a pain was left in my heart

Between the wilful shepherdess
And the Lady of the sea
My heart was in a constant duel
but this they could not see

I think since I reference 3 people here you should name them all (sorry its not the best riddle)

[Galadriel55]

Sounds like Sam - the 2 people being Frodo and Rosie. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is how they didn't see his pain - Frodo at least saw, even if no one else did.

[Mnemosyne]

Aldarion, Erendis, and Uinen/THE SEA.

[Galadriel55]

Aldarion, Erendis, and Uinen/THE SEA.

*headdesk* I haven't yet read their story, but from what I know it sounds right.

[Flame of Udûn]

yep Mynemosyne has got it exactly right take it away

[Galadriel55]

Well, it's been a while, and Mnemo didn't post a reply...

I am black, and Black I wield,
I fought Gold to protect gold.
I went out as a Lord of old
To be between Gold and gold as a shield.

Victorious was black, for Black never yields,
Or, at least, so black as told.


And hopefuly this riddle will require more than one guess to solve it! (:rolleyes: <-- for my previous two. :p)

PS: please name everybody that was mentioned!

[Urwen]

One of those is Morgoth (or Sauron). The gold bit could refer to...

*gapes* Of course! Turin! He himself is black and wields black sword! He went to kill Glaurung the Golden to protect his wife and sister, who had golden hair. It all fits perfectly!

So, my guess is Turin.

[Galadriel55]

:rolleyes:

and again it's solved from the first try. Yes, black=Turin, gold=Nienor Niniel, Black=Black Sword aka Gurthang, and Gold=Glaurung the Golden. You didnt mention the Lord (=Azaghal), but I'll give it to you anyways.


Looking forward to your riddle!

[Urwen]

Here it is:

Iron, gold and gold again
I created them all
They were stolen from me
On that fateful day

Hidden eyes and hidden allies
Followed my every step
When I found the truth
I could do nothing but weep

Journey came to an end
I still wonder why
When sun goes down
So shall I!

Happy riddling

[Galadriel55]

When sun goes down
So shall I!

Well, this is a referece to Morwen ("I am spent. I shall go with the sun."). The "eyes and allies" could be Glaurung watcing them on Amon Ethir, and the Doriath troop under Mablung keeping watch over her.

However, she didn't lose Turin, Lalaith, and Nienor all in one day (well, if that's wht iron, gold, and gold mean)... Plus, she didn't weep.

So I dunno...

[Urwen]

No, she didn't. That is a metaphor. As is 'weep'.

So, your cue.

P.S. Those are metaphors, so don't hold a grudge.

P.P.S: It should have been 'the truth keep" instead of "weep". I decided upon the later to confuse you.

Anyway, it's your turn to make a riddle. And make it harder this time. Even me, who am poor when it comes to riddles, could guess your last one...

[Galadriel55]

No grudges against your metaphors, and plese don't hold any against mine. ;)

I thouht that my last riddle was confusing! Well, I was proven wrong...


I'm neither young nor old,
Right in between am I.
I finished my house,
Yet my line didn't die.

Happy riddling!

[Urwen]

Since no one seems to answer, I guess I'll encourage them, with my own guess...

Elendil?

[Galadriel55]

No, not Elendil. Why do you think it was him? It will be easier if you explain your guess. I can tell you if you're in the right direction with something...

PS: YAY! My first riddle that wasn't solved from the first try!

[The Might]

This one is pretty tricky, but I'll give it a try: Theodred

I'm neither young nor old, - Theodred was 41 when he died - contrary to the wrong depiction in the films
Right in between am I. - 41 is just about half of the normal life expentancy for Rohirrim
I finished my house, - last of the House of Aldor
Yet my line didn't die. - the line of Eorl and Brego was continued on Eofor's side by Eomer

[Galadriel55]

Good guess, TM, but not what I had in mind. You are definitely on the right track, at least with the actual answer. Some of the approach is right as well.

Keep trying! ;)

PS: the Rohirrim had a rather high life expectancy during times of war! :p

PPS:

This one is pretty tricky

I'm flattered. :)

[Pitchwife]

If Miggy was on the right track with the Rohirrim, I think I've got it.

It's Brego, isn't it? (Meaning the king, not the horse.)

I'm neither young nor old
- neither Eorl the Young nor Aldor the Old
Right in between am I.
- son of the former, father of the latter
I finished my house,
- completed the building of Meduseld
Yet my line didn't die.
- his first son, Baldor, was lost in the Paths of the Dead, but the second one, Aldor, continued the line.

[Galadriel55]

And Brego it is! :D

Thread is yours, Pitch!

[The Might]

Nooooo!

[Galadriel55]

Nooooo!

Aww. :Merisu:

You probably got lost because you took "house" to mean "family", rather that the simpler meaning = building (there was a clue! I said 'finished', not 'ended'!).

And I just love the "young and old" thing.

Sorry. Couldn't resist. :p

PS: Don't listen to me, I'm too hyper right now to talk sense.

PPS: I thought someone would guess (half)elves, because their features don't show age, but you can see their wisdom/life experience...

PPPS: Well, at least this was some progress for me. Riddle solved on 3rd guess, rather than the first... :D

PPPPS: I'm talking too much, and beating Gandalf at post-scriptum-ing

PPPPPS: Am excited for Pitch's riddle!

PPPPPPS: Going completely crazy, and totaly beating Gandaf at post-scriptums.

*Losing track of my post-scriptums, and apologizing for the number.

[Galadriel55]

*Bump*

I see that Mnemo's game is taking up all your free time, Pitch. ;)

[Pitchwife]

Er... well, yes, I'm afraid my creativity is rather firmly tied up over there. Would somebody be so nice to step in and relieve me here?

[Urwen]

I guess I'll post, for I have a riddle

Nine black, one white,
I control them, that's fate
White also controls black,
keeping them on right track.

In my tale ships do take part
My people and I - descendants of same race
My King cherished ships,
and I loved him in my heart.

Yet my actions were bitter betrayal
In more way than one
Into cruel destiny,
my punishment had me thrown.

(This one is a bit harder, if you don't know where to look.)

[Galadriel55]

Beruthiel and her cats. ;)

[Urwen]

:rolleyes: And here I tried to confuse you by putting nothing specific...

Your turn. :)

[Galadriel55]

"Nine black, one white," tipped me off. :p

I should have thought before answering. I've exhausted my riddle ideas. Hopefully this isn't as bad as I think it is:

I looked at grey -
Enchantment.

I looked at inferior -
Confidence.

I looked at gold -
Truth.



No rhyme, no rhythm, no alliteration, no nothing. My brain is tired.
Happy riddling!

[Urwen]

Well, first two verses indicate Thingol, but last two verses indicate Turin.

I'll go with Thingol, cos Turin was the answer to your previous riddle.

[Galadriel55]

Good guesses, both, but it's neither. I didn't think of Turin when I wrote the riddle, but now that you mention it, I see that the last verse really fits!

Keep trying! ;)

[Urwen]

Is the answer from Silmarilion? Or LoTR?

EDIT: Then again, first and third verse fit Nienor.

But I can't, for the life for me, find a person who fits all three verses, and it must be a person, because object or place couldn't really feel confidence, could they?

*is confused*

[Galadriel55]

Not Nienor.

The answer is from The Sil.

And it is not necessarily a person. All these things could be metaphorical. But I'm not saying anything.

Reposting for convenience's sake:

I looked at grey -
Enchantment.

I looked at inferior -
Confidence.

I looked at gold -
Truth.

[Urwen]

Is it so? *laughs*

In that case, the answer must be Gurthang

I looked at grey -
Enchantment. - This was many times in Doriath, if you say that Gurthang was 'metaphorically' feeling his master's feelings...about Melian ;)

I looked at inferior -
Confidence. - This also happened, with Turin, if you think 'metaphorically'

I looked at gold -
Truth. - Also with Turin, 'metaphorically' when he saw Glaurung

This is just a shot. If it's wrong, at least tell me if I'm on partly right track

[Galadriel55]

Not Gurthang. You were closer with your first guess - Thingol. And I didn't say that it's an object, and I didn't say that it's a person, or that it's anything else. I was just saying that things could be metaphorical.

[Urwen]

Is the answer inside his familia, perchance?

[Galadriel55]

Is the answer inside his familia, perchance?

Are you talking about Turin of Thingol?

And anyways, if I tell you the family of this person (I'll give you that, it is a person) it would be too obvious.

[Urwen]

Why, I'm talking about Thingol, since it's neither Turin nor Nienor, and my namesake unfortunately died at the age of three.

But if you want to play further, I'd say Melian, since her dear dead husband WAS known as 'Grey cloak'. As for confidence bit, those were her sharp words to my dearest brother. And the 'gold' bit, could refer to... *smirks*

Gotta you! It IS Melian! I finally realised what the gold and the truth refer to! The 'inferior' and 'gold' and 'truth' all revolve around MY family!

Okay,so Melian looked upon Hurin and she was the one who GIVE the truth, not the one who RECEIVED it.

*laughs* Stumper...

[Galadriel55]

Yup, Melian it is! Way to go!

She looked Thingol in the eyes and they both were enchanted, then she looked Beren in the eyes and gave him confidence to speak, and then she looked Hurin in the eyes and he understood the truth of Morgoth's curse. I probably missed some people who Melian looked at but these three were the only ones that sprang to my mind.

Looking forward to Urwen's next riddle!

[Urwen]

Thank you. Here's a really stumpy riddle:

Though no song sings of me
My blood held the only hope for the world
My people were staunch and proud
They refused the offer of the Dark one

Happy riddling

[Galadriel55]

Definitely stumpy.

Though no song sings of me - Fingolfin?

My blood held the only hope for the world - Earendil/his ancestry?

My people were staunch and proud
They refused the offer of the Dark one - *completely stumped.* Sounds like the Dwarves of Erebor... or maybe Rohan... but if I can somehow link Earendil and Fingolfin, these are totally random!

Already stumped.

:D

EDIT: Just thought... maybe Elendil?

[Urwen]

My blood held the only hope for the world - Earendil


This is correct. The rest aren't. And that's the only hint I could give - for now...

[Galadriel55]

Hm. Elrond? He's Earendil's son, and his and Gil-galad's people refused to believe Annatar=Sauron.

[Urwen]

No, wrong.

Maybe this:

hope = Earendil
speaker = his paternal ancestor

will help, no?

[Galadriel55]

Being the ancestor of Earendil and the leader of the 3rd House of Edain, and all Edain refused to serve Morgoth (unlike the Easterlings)... am I somewhat close?

[Urwen]

In a way, yes. Think of it this way: the dark one doesn't neccessarily mean evil... ;)

Also, offer is one specific offer.

Btw, it isn't Marach.

[Urwen]

Um...why has everybody neglected this thread? You people managed to solve much harder riddles than mine is, and yet you still cover before this one?

I don't know what to say, except that you have intelligence swings...

[Pitchwife]

For crying out loud, Urwen, it's not even been 10 days yet! If it's any consolation, I've been thinking about this, and if I had an inkling who it could be you can bet I'd have posted it.

I'm moderately sure it has to be a member of the Dor-lómin mafia, and reading "They refused the offer of the Dark one" my first thought was of Húrin rejecting Morgoth's offer of a captaincy in reward for betraying Turgon, but if "the dark one doesn't necessarily mean evil" that was obviously wrong - which leaves me rather clueless.

Anyway, belated thanks for standing in for me earlier. And it's 'cower', not 'cover'.;)

[Urwen]

And as for "Mafia" remember than Hurin himself wasn't Earendil's ancestor. But someone else was. And that someone else is the answer.

Also, think about who else except Morgoth and Sauron, Witch King and others was called the DARK one. If you guess that, it'll all make sense.

*sly*

[Anguirel]

Haldar, son of Haldad, brother of Haleth, I think; it could also be Haldad, but I'm inclined to think fewest songs would be sung of the boy who bought it before he could inherit. It can't be Haleth herself because she's a widely renowned pop heroine and died childless rather than contributing to wonderboy's genepool. The dark one is Caranthir. Easy. Now stay away from the King's Players

[Urwen]

So, you depichered who the dark one really is. Congrats.

But the answer is not Haldar. :D

P.S: I may stay away, but as I said, I'm not the only member who thinks this. Neglecting other categories may come back to bite you in the bum. I saw that admin and mod of this forum have been online quite a lot lately. They might decide that RP is keeping you from posting in other categories and close the RP.

I just want to warn you to lessen before they do.;)

[the phantom]

It's totally Lalaith.

[Pitchwife]

P.S: I may stay away, but as I said, I'm not the only member who thinks this. Neglecting other categories may come back to bite you in the bum. I saw that admin and mod of this forum have been online quite a lot lately. They might decide that RP is keeping you from posting in other categories and close the RP.
Mnemo has already said all there is to say to that on the King's Players Discussion thread, and said it quite admirably, but as that apparently didn't get through, I'll put it more bluntly. Downsing is supposed to be fun, not some kind of job where you have to fulfill certain quota. I can't find anything in the Forum Policies and Guidelines that dictates how people are expected to spend their time on the Downs as long as it's Tolkien-related and up to the forum's standards of courtesy and good writing - which the RPG in question most definitely is. I'm not sure the same can be said of your attempts to meddle with other members' personal freedom.

[Urwen]

Um...let's get back on topic, shall we?

[Pitchwife]

Good idea.:)

If Ang was correct that the Dark one is Caranthir and my people are the Haladin, I guess it might be Hareth, who married Galdor and became Húrin's and Húor's mother?

[satansaloser2005]

Um...let's get back on topic, shall we?

Yes, quite, and let's stay that way (and keep all Riddles discussion to the Riddles page, as it is supposed to be).

Well said, Pitch, my good lad. And an excellent guess as well, if I may say so. :)

[Urwen]

Um...but what I be naughty and say that the answer is Huor....? :p

But that wouldn't be nice, would it?

But could you explain your guess...of Hareth? :D

[Pitchwife]

Something like this:

Though no song sings of me
- unlike her descendants and e.g. her ancestral relative Haleth, she isn't renowned for any special deeds (that I can remember)
My blood held the only hope for the world
- she was Eärendil's great-grandmother
My people were staunch and proud
- can't find a special example for staunch off the top of my head, but their pride is shown e.g. in Haleths answer to Thingol
They refused the offer of the Dark one
- Caranthir's offer to let them settle in his land.

Could be one of her ancestors as well, I suppose, but going back in Eärendil's family tree she's the first of the Haladin to show up.

EDIT: If it was Húor, I think he would call the House of Hador his people, not the Haladin, wouldn't he?

PS. sally, my dear young lady, you have quite a nerve to call me 'lad'. But thanks anyway!;):D

[Urwen]

And...this is my first riddle that took more than two guesses. *grin*

But anyway, Hareth is indeed the answer. And Caranthir is the dark one I had in mind...

[Pitchwife]

And a good riddle it was (and not at all as mafioso as I'd expected)!

I don't want to shirk my duty again, but I'd like to offer the thread to Anguirel, because but for him I'd never have thought of Caranthir and the Haladin. If he declines or hasn't posted by tomorrow, I'll put something up then. (I have an idea already, just have to think a bit about how to word it.)

[Urwen]

So it paid off.

(and not at all as mafioso as I'd expected)!

And what does that mean, exactly? Just curious...

[Pitchwife]

So it paid off.
Er, I'm not sure I want to encourage this way of thinking...

And what does that mean, exactly? Just curious...
'Mafia' = 'la familia', as you like to call them (it's Italian, isn't it?). Well, Hareth is of course related to them, but the solution was a generation or two further back than I'd thought. No offense intended.

[Urwen]

No, I don't mean that...as in THAT.

I meant that I've been learning how to make difficult riddles, and it paid off.

[Anguirel]

keep the field Pitchwife seriously, I have no idea, am a bit exhausted, and was in any case only the, er, Merry to your Eowyn

[Pitchwife]

As you wish, my lord of Burlach. Let's see how this fares:

Stoneland's servant, Lord of Stone,
my shot was aimed at the hands of friends;
towards sunset I sought for a light of hope,
towards sunset turning my day did end.

Pretty transparent, I'm afraid...

[Galadriel55]

I don't have a guess, but I have a few poks at it. :p

Stoneland=Gondor

I can't think of any "Lord of Stone" that would be a servant of Gondor (Gonhirrim come to mind, but that doesn't fit).

I guess I could make some person from the Battle of Pelennor fit, but I don't recall any of them betraying friends (what I think the second line means...)

EDIT: On a second thought, maybe Saruman. Baing lord of Isengard, on the property of Gondor, betrays friends, dies and tried to go westward (towards sunset) but fails. Also, the sunset could refer to the end of the War, metaphorically.

Why does the word "hands" bug me? :rolleyes:

[Galadriel55]

In Pitchie's post that mysteriously disappeared togeter with many others he said that it's not Saruman but I'm somewhat closer - in a way - with Gonnhirrim. Also, he confirmed that Stoneland=Godor. (I'm lucky I read this before the chaos with missing posts started!)

Judging from that:

I could be closer in 2 ways. Either the name of the person literaly translates to something tht sounds like "Lord of Stone", or this person has good skills with it. (In contrast to Saruman, who is Lord of Stone only because he lives in a stony place).



Then, I doubt that this was an actual archer. There aren't that many Gondorian bowmen mentioned, and nne of them aimed for hands. A "shot" could metaphorically refer to pretty much any action that has a specific intent, or that is meant to lead/go somewhere (eg a speech).

And "hands" could by a part of... anything. It could be two flanks of an army, or... I dunno.

All this is making me confused. And I'm no nearer to the answer. :rolleyes:

The next part, about sunset, is probably the easiest and most straightforward. Anyone recall any notable sunsets other than the one at the end of the Battle of Peennor?

[Pitchwife]

In Pitchie's post that mysteriously disappeared togeter with many others he said that it's not Saruman but I'm somewhat closer - in a way - with Gonnhirrim. Also, he confirmed that Stoneland=Godor. (I'm lucky I read this before the chaos with missing posts started!)
Lucky indeed! For those who weren't so lucky, I also noted that hands aren't a bodypart you would usually aim a shot at. Which is a hint.

I could be closer in 2 ways. Either the name of the person literaly translates to something tht sounds like "Lord of Stone", or this person has good skills with it. (In contrast to Saruman, who is Lord of Stone only because he lives in a stony place).
No comment.:smokin:

Then, I doubt that this was an actual archer. There aren't that many Gondorian bowmen mentioned, and nne of them aimed for hands.
Yep.

A "shot" could metaphorically refer to pretty much any action that has a specific intent, or that is meant to lead/go somewhere (eg a speech).
It could. But it doesn't.

And "hands" could by a part of... anything. It could be two flanks of an army, or... I dunno.
Or it could be just hands.

The next part, about sunset, is probably the easiest and most straightforward. Anyone recall any notable sunsets other than the one at the end of the Battle of Peennor?
Why not just read 'sunset'=west, as you did earlier?

[Galadriel55]

Now that I think of it, the last two lines fit any average Gondorian. They have a custom of looking toward the West before their evening meal, which ends the day.

Saying this, I'm left with three clues: Lord of Stone, "shot", and "hands of friends".

I'm begining to wonder if "friends" refer to the [possibly former] friends of this Lord or to any group of people that are friends. Which means that I'm thinking too much. :p

If you didn't say that its literally just a shot, I would say Denethor. It's even possible to say that he "stared arrows" at Gandalf, but I'd call him "brain of friends".

I don't recall any shot that's related to "just hands". Unless it could somehow refer to Anborn tying Gollum's hands... but still no real connection.

[Pitchwife]

Hm, looks like this isn't as easy as I thought.

Now that I think of it, the last two lines fit any average Gondorian. They have a custom of looking toward the West before their evening meal, which ends the day.
Well, yes, but that's not what I meant; maybe the last two verses are a bit too vague. Note, however, that it says my day, not 'the day', and this is not random.

I'm not sure how much more I can or should say without giving away too much... but shot, even if it's not a metaphor, can still have more than one meaning.

[Anguirel]

shot, even if it's not a metaphor, can still have more than one meaning.

oh, right then, Golfimbul

[Pitchwife]

For the sake of the high esteem in which I hold your rational faculty, my lord of Burlach, I'll suppose you were kidding.:D

[Galadriel55]

Eurika! I got it! ...I think.

It's Hirgon:

He's a Gondorian, his name means Lord of Stone, he carried the Red Arrow to Gondor's allies ie Rohirrim, and he died when he turned his horse back to the west!

Geez, I'm getting better at solving these. :p

[Pitchwife]

Bingo! You've got it indeed, and explained everything correctly!

My heart bled for you when I saw you looking for parmaq in all the wrong places, and I wrecked my brain quite a bit thinking about what more hints I could give you without spilling the whole thing, but I should have known you would get it in the end. Well done!

The floor is yours (and I can hopefully get another neverending RP-post finished at last).

[Galadriel55]

My heart bled for you when I saw you looking for parmaq in all the wrong places, and I wrecked my brain quite a bit thinking about what more hints I could give you without spilling the whole thing, but I should have known you would get it in the end. Well done!

Aww! I'm sorry I was so much trouble! Now I see how all your clues work, but before I was stumped. When you said that "hands aren't a bodypart you would usually aim a shot at" is a hint, I thought Errr...it is? It's a bit obvious... *laughs at herself* :D In your post that was deleted, I thought you merely agreed with my statement...

Enough of my giberish. Here's a riddle that should be interesting enough. The second stanza is probably going to give it away, but without it it sounded too vague.


When we all made up one
Much good was done;
But when split up we did
Many thoughts were hid.

There once was a man -
You may say that we are of him,
Yet he is of us,
As weird as it may seem.

Happy riddling! :D

[Galadriel55]

*bump*

Yes, WW. I get it :rolleyes: But I'm still impatient. Treebeard would be mad. :p

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, G55, this one makes me feel as lost as a hobbit in Moria.

We in the first stanza could be the world, his wife and his sister-in-law's former roommate's second cousin thrice removed, i.e. more or less everything and everybody - the Children of Ilúvatar, the three Kindreds of the Elves, the Houses of the Edain, the various breeds of Hobbits, the Ainur, the Fellowship, Ents and Entwives, you name it. (OK, it doesn't make that much sense for all and each of them, but you get the picture.)

But it's the second stanza that's really mysterious for me - except I'm wondering whether the man might be nobody from Middle-earth but perhaps the good Professor himself?

[Galadriel55]

You're looking too broad, Pitch. It's more of a little thing, but something that I noticed many people notice. :p I don't think it's too obscure.

The answer is not a typical one for these riddles. I'll give more clues if needed.

Keep guessing!

Edit: I forgot to say that the "man" is a man from ME. "Man" is very literal and really the word has little impact on the riddle. There's quite a lot of "extra words" there, unlike Legate's riddles, where every word is a clue! ;)

[Galadriel55]

Still no luck? Well, here's a clue:

The riddle is more about science than actual events.

I hope this helps! :D

[Pitchwife]

It's Saruman and his many colours, right?

Don't think I would ever have guessed that without your 'science' hint - although with hindsight, it's clear that 'split up' had to be taken literally, but the rest was pretty obscure.

[Galadriel55]

You have it, Pitchie! The answer I was looking for is MANY COLOURS. And the man is indeed Saruman.

I didn't think the clue would give it away that much. :p

Your turn! :D

[Pitchwife]

Thanks! Now try this:

Flew a bird wingless
from a bough leafless
with hair headless,
met a bird featherless,
one fell lifeless.

Merry riddling!

[Anguirel]

Eowyn kills the Nazgul steed, unless my vocabulary is overly chauvinist

[Pitchwife]

Nothing wrong with your vocabulary, my lord of Burlach, but that's not it. (Also, I'd like you to explain line by line how your guess fits the riddle!)

Keep trying.:)


EDIT: Er, just noticed I was a little slow on the uptake there. Still wrong, but much funnier now.:D

[Galadriel55]

Hm. Earendil's battle with Ancalagon?

Flew a bird wingless - Vingilot
from a bough leafless - ...? Dunno
with hair headless,
met a bird featherless, - Ancalagon
one fell lifeless. - him as well

It sounds too much like Ang's guess though.

[Pitchwife]

No, it's not Eärendil and Ancalagon, but you're thinking in the right direction as for the 'bird featherless' (as was Ang). Keep guessing!

[Anguirel]

argh no, I think I'm solving this against my will - Legolas draws the bow of Galadriel against the Nazgul

Flew a bird wingless - the arrow's flight comes from a bird, I suppose
from a bough leafless - the bow itself
with hair headless, - strung with Galadhrim hair, do I recall?
met a bird featherless, - Beastie from Ye Olde Worlde
one fell lifeless. - one Totally Enormous Extinct Dinosaur

[Pitchwife]

Correctly guessed and perfectly explained, my lord of Burlach! Thread is yours.

[Anguirel]

The second reign
(Via entail)
Of knightly name
Yet raised a smile

[Mithalwen]

Paladin II, Took and Thain? Paladins were knight-erranty type bods and Paladin inherited the title from his second cousin. Pippin is the smile? Maybe...:Merisu:

[Anguirel]

Dead right Mith; although actually I meant Paladin's successful resistance, rising rebellion against Sharkey from the Great Smial; but your explanation will do just as well

Well, that was a short reign, over to you...

[Galadriel55]

*pokes Mith*

[Mithalwen]

Sorry Ang, blame the Royal Wedding for stimulating memories of the laws of primogeniture...

Galadriel, it is your fault if this is rubbish - do get ten days' grace theoretically and poke? How rude!!!:eek:


My first isn't in silver - but it is in gold
My second's not in heat - but is in cold
My third is in Alfirin but not Niphredil
(or in Anor but not in Isil)
My fourth is in death but not in life
My fifth is my fourth (the same thing twice)
My sixth is in tear but not in cry
My seventh in land but not in fly
My start is found in mountains' gloom
My end is at a place of doom
If you are puzzled and starting to glower
Think of a bloomer that's also a flower.

[Galadriel55]

Sorry sorry. I was impatient. I like this thread (even though I'm bad at riddles).

:Merisu:

I love the riddle, and I am completely stumped.

[Galadriel55]

Oh, wait! I have an idea...

*gets a piece of paper and writes a bunch of random letters*

Ola... Goa...

GLADDEN!

My answer is Gladden River

My start is found in mountains' gloom - near the Misty Mountains
My end is at a place of doom - Gladden Fields where Isildur was killed
If you are puzzled and starting to glower - which I was until a minute ago
Think of a bloomer that's also a flower. - flower-yes, but bloomer? Well, any flower is a bloomer, so I don't know.

[Mithalwen]

Indeed it is the Gladden which rises in the Misty Mountains and ends in the Gladden Fields where it joins the Anduin. The letter clues are thus obvious. The last bit is in the code of English crosswords tells you to think of a flower which is also a river (bloomer= something that blooms ie a flower, flower something that flows, ie a river! But I misled with the rhyme... bad Mith.) So I didn't last much longer than Ang.

[Galadriel55]

The last bit is in the code of English crosswords tells you to think of a flower which is also a river (bloomer= something that blooms ie a flower, flower something that flows, ie a river!)

Ohhh! I get it now!...

So I didn't last much longer than Ang.

Neither have I in the majority of my riddles so far.

Gonna post the new riddle in a few minutes...

[Galadriel55]

Here it is. Not a very good one. It's probably going to be solved in the next 24h as well.


So alike we,
And yet think differently.

Differently we fair,
Yet a common goal share.

Opposites we are,
Yet alike as star to star.

Between us there stand five,
Yet we were closest... when alive.

[Mithalwen]

My theory is that the good ones are solved quickly ...but I may be comforting myself.

This one is triggering something in the depths of my mind but I am going to have to sleep on it...

[Galadriel55]

My theory is that the good ones are solved quickly

That was what Legate and Pitch told me when Legate solved my first riddle in less than a day. I must say I didn't really believe them... :p Especially after Legate's riddle took weeks to solve (if my memory is not faulty).

That's not to say that yours isn't good. ;) It is.

[Galadriel55]

No one?

Is the riddle too hard, forgotten, or simply not good enough to be solved, quickly or otherwise? ;)

True, it's lousy and it lacks inspiration and proper clues. But still. Yeah.

:rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

No distracted by other pesky teasers elsewher *coughmiddleearthcough*. OK I have had a couple ideas but nothing that fits. :(

So I thought of Maedhros and Amras, - eldest and youngest of Feanor's seven sons (between us there stand five) but I don't recall they were particularly close. And naturally he was most alike to his twin.

Anar and Isil - stars and as blooms of the two trees closest when alive but the five I don't get.

Then Saruman and gandalf and the five is wrong again since five in total :(

[Galadriel55]

No distracted by other pesky teasers elsewher *coughmiddleearthcough*.

:o Sorry. I didn't mean you specifically, I was talking to everyone in general.

You are somewhat closer with Amras and Maedhros than the others.

The "five" doesn't have to mean "five people". ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The "five" doesn't have to mean "five people". ;)

I wonder five what it might be, then...

You certainly were not right about this being easy, though. Hmm... curious. My initial idea was Manwë and Melkor, but that does not really fit in many places (especially the "five" and "alive" stuff). And of course, thinking about all sorts of people who have five others between them in their lineages... but then again, since you said it does not have to mean "five people", that sort of goes out of the way...

I'll keep thinking...

[Galadriel55]

You certainly were not right about this being easy, though.

Probably because it lacks proper clues. Let's see... I added some words that might help... the bolded ones are what I added.


So alike we,
And yet think differently.

Differently we fair,
Yet a common goal share.

Opposites we are,
Yet alike as star to star.

Between us there stand five,
Yet we were closest... when both alive.

One went East, another West,
Both were put through a similar test.

[Mithalwen]

Elrond and Elros?

[Galadriel55]

Elrond and Elros?

No, but I see how that can fit. Don't be discouraged - you're on the right track! Keep guessing!

[Mithalwen]

I didn't think it was quite there but close enough to have a punt...

[Galadriel55]

I didn't think it was quite there but close enough to have a punt...

No, not quite there yet, but pretty close! ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Of course one of the things I kept thinking about was Boromir and Faramir. But not really, what would the "five" be then...

Okay, with risk of giving hints to somebody, I am going to think aloud: I am really wondering whether this is not something like Galadriel and something (it's the West thing that makes me think about that), like Galadriel and Fëanor; or then Isildur and Aragorn, or something like that - it's the "test" part. But then again, it cannot be anything like Isildur and Aragorn, because the two were "closest, when both alive". That is troublesome, because otherwise I could well imagine the two being some two people separated in time - say, by five generations, perhaps? - yet they obviously knew each other.

This is all probably rather off, but maybe it will trigger some train of thought... or at least it made me think what it is not.

[Mithalwen]

Faramir and Boromir? Alike but different.. hmmm still think I am missing something ..

[Galadriel55]

Of course one of the things I kept thinking about was Boromir and Faramir.

Like usual, you are thinking about the right thing! :D I told you it was a lousy riddle!

This is what the clues were:

So alike we, - appearance
And yet think differently. - well, they do

Differently we fair, - use the Ring in Boromir's case, leave it in Faramir's
Yet a common goal share. - to save Gondor

Opposites we are, - personalities
Yet alike as star to star. - physically

Between us there stand five, - 5 years difference in age
Yet we were closest... when both alive. - 'close' as in good friends

One went East, another West, - Faramir to Ithilien and Boromir to Rivendell
Both were put through a similar test. - what to do with Frodo and the Ring



I'm definitely looking forward to your next riddle, Legate!

[Galadriel55]

Faramir and Boromir? Alike but different.. hmmm still think I am missing something ..

Sorry, we crossed! It is Boromir and Faramir.

Legate mentioned them first, but not as an answer, so now I don't know who to give it to...

:o


I guess whichever of you writes something first, then... Sorry...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ah! Okay! Well I've been thinking about it and basically everything as you said seemed obvious, but honestly, the "five" basically scratched it for me... age difference, never occured to me... that really was a good one, G55!

Well, I think it's whichever way. Mith, do you want to post a new one? Because if you have something ready, you can post it, before I manage to think of something... interesting how we basically posted it at the same time, I'd say that was a stroke of fate - well, great minds think alike, perhaps? ;)

[Mithalwen]

No it is fine I was second.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No it is fine I was second.

But second by mere seconds :)

All right, I came up with something for now. It might not have so good poetic quality (I think I started becoming a bit rusty... I should post here more), but at least I hope the riddle will be entertaining.

Some have seen my twin at night,
treacherous as he be,
some said that he must be blind,
some said he could see.

I don't know him, never did;
he just bears my name,
as my twin, from Him he hid,
before he turned tame.

I have those who shelter sought
served for many years,
until treachery was brought
upon me from fears.

When He returned from His quest
I've been long in chain,
foes at my door, He can't rest
Ainu is my bane.

Happy riddling!

[Galadriel55]

Ah! Okay! Well I've been thinking about it and basically everything as you said seemed obvious, but honestly, the "five" basically scratched it for me... age difference, never occured to me... that really was a good one, G55!

Thank you! It's an even greater compliment coming from a master of riddles as you are. ;)

I think I started becoming a bit rusty... I should post here more

No to the first, yes!!! to the second

I can't think of anything that really fits more than one stanza, and for the life of me I can't keep all of them constant throughout the riddle. Or match all three...

I'm leaning more in the direction of Frodo (He), Gollum (twin), and something Shire-related, even though none are namesakes. Here are some points I based this guess upon:

Some have seen my twin at night, - from Moria all the way to Eryn Muil Frodo saw his eyes
treacherous as he be, - o yess, my preciouss

as my twin, from Him he hid, - his as soon as Frodo turned to look at him
before he turned tame. - before he promised to help

When He returned from His quest - Frodo returned home
I've been long in chain, - under Sharkey's rule. Could be a reference to the Lockholes, or to the chain that blocked the way to the Green Dragon (IIRC)
foes at my door, - Ruffians
He can't rest - sadly he cannot, and in the end he leaves to the West
Ainu is my bane. - Saruman

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I must say, really good points... and on really really good track... but of course, the main question, who is "I", seems to be lost completely in haze :)

I suggest you try to think about it... it is a bit tricky, of course, it's supposed to be! But I am sure you can find out...

[Galadriel55]

I just had a brainwave that told me that the inn is really the Floating Log! It makes sense now!



Some have seen my twin at night, - Gollum, floating on a log
treacherous as he be, - good master, let's feed you to Her
some said that he must be blind,
some said he could see. - I don't really know about this one.

I don't know him, never did; - Gollum never travelled to the Shire
he just bears my name, - floating on a log
as my twin, from Him he hid, - from Frodo
before he turned tame. - before he promised

I have those who shelter sought
served for many years, - being a peaceful hobbit inn
until treachery was brought
upon me from fears. - Sharkey's men etc

When He returned from His quest - Frodo comes home to see the Shire scoured
I've been long in chain, - there was a barrier blocking the road to the inn
foes at my door, - Ruffians
He can't rest - leaves to the West
Ainu is my bane. - Saruman


I=The Floating Log
Twin=Gollum
He=Grodo


I didn't realize how close I was in my previous guess! :eek:

That was one great riddle, Legate! :D

[Nerwen]

That has to be right!

In fact, now that I've seen your answer, G55, I believe I can supply the missing bit:

some said that he must be blind,
some said he could see.

Compare:
"It wasn't funny that way, Mr Frodo. It was queer. All wrong, if it wasn't a dream. And you had best hear it. It was like this: I saw a log with eyes!"

"The log's all right," said Frodo. "There are many in the River. But leave out the eyes!"

Nice work! Legate's riddles generally take weeks to solve!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed! Floating Log is the correct answer. Well done, G55! And as for the missing bit, Nerwen is right - that quote is what I've been referring to.

So once again, cheers - and now you can imagine how I felt when I saw your original guess, which was basically entirely correct, except for concluding the specific answer :)

Anyway, your turn, then, Galadriel55!

[Galadriel55]

Thanks, Legate, and kudos to Nerwen for that quote! :D Here it goes...

I carried one
With a load heavier that mine,
But not for long.

Soon enough, by stroke of fate,
He found himself a better mate.
Music, but not song.

To darkness we came,
But, what a shame! -
I durst not go along.

My master with my feet
I happened to greet:
Farewell! So long!

[Galadriel55]

My riddles don't bite. :cool::smokin::D

[Mithalwen]

Is it Bill the Pony?

[Galadriel55]

Is it Bill the Pony?

It is! That was quick. :)

[Mithalwen]

I had thought it was Sam when I first looked but that didn't work. Then I remembered a notorious thread involving Bill Ferny being kicked in the Shire - which I postulated might be an euphemism :eek:

Don't quite get the music but not song....

Ad oh dear I have to think of summat now.

[Galadriel55]

Bill indeed kicked Bill :D, which is what the last stanza is referring to.

"Music but not song" - music is Asfaloth's bells, but there was no time for songs or other merriment after the Trollshaws.

[Urwen]

Well, I'm restarting this, since a month had passed.

Both of us are of white,
Loved ones rejected us,
Some may say it's bad,
But we say it's good.

For we moved on,
We fell in love with each other
We've proven that darkness could be escaped
We reached the light when the Eagles came.

[Galadriel55]

Beren and Luthien? Rejected by Thingol, proved Morgoth's unassailability to be wrong, ran out of Thangorodrim before being saved by the Eagles...